Sara Bareilles on "The Interestings" || Books That Changed My Life

Dude, the narcissism of humanity. I relate to feeling like an outsider. I relate to feeling awkward. This book became like a portal. He released a song that he stole from this child while this kid was on acid. It would have been more reasonable if you guys would have gone to banking camp instead of arts camp. Your dream, you might need to pick a different one. This idea of being interesting is just in opposition to just being. That just being is interesting.

Drop the book.

Interesting.

So we are here today to talk about The Interestings by Meg Wolitzer. How did this change your life?

This book changed my life.

I'm Chris Collins, and you're watching Books That Changed My Life. This week, we're joined by singer-songwriter and actress Sara Bareilles, and she's not gonna write you a love song. She's here to talk about the book that changed her life The Interestings by Meg Wolitzer. So we are here today to talk about The Interestings by Meg Wolitzer. How did this change your life?

This book changed my life most practically because it has become the central sort of art project that I'm working on creating at the moment. So we're in the middle of an adaptation of this to become a stage musical. And the last time I wrote a musical was an adaptation of a film called Waitress, and that was 10 years ago.

Thank you.

And I have been in anticipation of what would the— I loved the experience of writing for theater so much, and it changed my life completely, that experience did. And then I have been in anticipation of what would the next thing be, and I have been sent things of books and film and, you know, are you interested in writing this project or that project? And then I got sent this book and I was like, this seems— I'd have no relationship to it. And I started reading it and I couldn't put it down. And I felt something lit up in me that is totally unique to the world-building that happened in this novel. There is some portal that lives in this book for me that has opened up a channel to a kind of music I've never written before, a kind of storytelling I've never done before. This book became like a portal. So it has really changed my life as an artist, as a creator, as an actor, as a producer. And then personally, I just related to so many of the themes in this book. I feel so often That I carry so much melancholy around the ache of being alive, that there's just so much yearning and striving, and people are— we're trying so hard and we miss and we fail and we disappoint each other. And all of those themes live in this book in such a beautiful way. And the characters just feel like they're out walking around. Like, I know these people. And I love these people, and they're all flawed and kind of terrible, and I just love them.

So explain the angst that you're walking around with.

I think it has to do with this, what is out of our control, that we just, we live and we die, the ephemeral nature of life. We're not here for long. What you love, you lose. your friends, your parents, you lose your children, your pets sometimes. Like that there's just, we want, we live in this delusion of illusion of control. It's an agreement as humanity. Like we're all gonna pretend we're not gonna die, right? And then we move through life and there's just an ache to that, that we, that when we're faced, especially I think mortality, And I've gone through a lot of grief in the last 5 years, as a lot of people have done. I've lost a couple of very dear friends. And my experience with grief has also coincided with this book and has brought me so much closer to the ache of being alive that great love and great loss are just, they're braided together.

They're one.

They are one, yeah.

What changes in a person when they accept mortality? Like, if I'm walking around pretending that I'm going to live forever, I'm one way. And then if I accept that I'm not going to live forever, what changes?

I mean, I imagine there's a variety of answers to that, but one thing that comes to my mind is just the gift of presence. It's like if you know you're not guaranteed another moment, you might pay a different kind of attention to this moment. And gives, it gives more value to the moment that you're actually in, that the thing you're waiting for is not a life that happens over there, it's the one that you're surrounded by. So getting really intimate and getting your hands dirty with the life that you already have is a really valuable, I think a really valuable experience. And in a lot of ways, probably a more enriching and satisfying experience. Because you're not, you don't have one eye on what's happening down the road.

That is an incredible answer. It's really good. I like that. Did you grow up feeling that way or is it something that's happened more as an adult? Like when you were a kid, were you pretty indifferent?

It's happened a, a lot more as an adult. And I think because I had a lot of melancholy in my life and some bouts with depression and a lot of anxiety and—

Did that start in childhood though?

Yeah. I think like childhood and early 20s got really bad and then has been kind of like something I manage. You know, I'm 46 now and it's just something I manage, my anxiety and depression. Although it's gotten a lot better since I got on Lexapro, which was a major light bulb moment for me. But yeah, no, as a kid I was really tenderhearted, really sensitive, really attuned to people's sadness. Could feel—

So very empathetic.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, which I think is a part of why I turned towards songwriting, is that I was— it was like a place to put all these big feelings and work it out. Work it out. Yeah, at least hold them somewhere. Yeah.

Okay, so for somebody who hasn't read the book, in like 60 seconds, explain what the book is about.

Okay, The Interestings is about— it's a novel That spans about 40 years in the lifespan of this group of kids who meet at a summer arts camp on the East Coast in the late '60s, early '70s. And there's an outsider, this woman Jules, who sort of gets anointed by this group and taken into this very special group of intellectual, very special kids. And she grows up idolizing this group of kids, and there's an inciting incident that sort of breaks the group apart. And it's the grappling with petty jealousy, with what it means to be special, what it means to have talent, what it means— like, what is enough? When do you stop sort of searching for the life that you think you're trying to live? There's a lot of themes about What it means to grow up.

'Cause we feel completely different when we're kids versus when you become an adult.

Like, yes and no. I think you— don't you think? I mean, for me, it's not that hard for me to feel, especially if I'm in an experience that makes me feel wobbly or like overwhelmed in any way, like the feeling that comes up is very young. It's a very young sort of like, wounded or scared or insecure or self-conscious feeling that like feels very young. So there's a lot of times where I feel like I'm just, I'm stuck at 12 years old and I'm like tricked everybody that I'm actually like a lady now. I'm really not. I'm not.

Do you really?

Totally. You don't feel that way?

No.

Wow. Yeah, no, I, the, and I—

I wish I could go back and talk to that kid. And just tell him it's gonna be okay.

Yeah, I know, I know.

But I'm not— I, I left him.

Yeah.

I've reinvented.

Yeah. See, my theory is that we're a little bit like Russian nesting dolls, that he's there, you know, like—

Oh, for sure.

Like, we're just—

It's a part of your experience.

Yeah, yeah. She's with me, but she's noisy sometimes, that little girl.

Yeah, she is.

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Does she have another name?

No, no, no, just Sarah.

I think it's funny when people give themselves nicknames.

Totally. They're like, yeah, Marie. Marie's out. Yeah.

So the, the characters in the book feel very real.

Yeah.

What's the style of the book? How would you describe the way the story's delivered?

Meg's voice as a writer to me is really singular. Um, it's really accessible. It's, again, very vivid. She has a way of describing things with, like, laser accuracy, but in a kind of oddball, quirky perspective. There's a lot of humor. She's really funny. And there's a lot of the articulation of the inner life of the characters that feels so real and humane.

Relatable.

Yes, totally.

Yeah. Okay, let's talk about the characters. So, we have Jules. We have Ethan, Ash, Goodman, Kathy, and John.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

So, kind of go through the characters. Jules?

Yeah. Jules, to me, is sort of the centerpiece. She's the outsider who has been brought into this little group. She grew up on Long Island. She's getting— her dad has just passed away. She gets sent to an arts camp on scholarship because her mom is like, I really want you to have some fun this summer 'cause we've been going through such a hard time. She meets this group of kids, Early on. And Jules is awkward and funny and whiny and greedy and like a wonderful combination of really lovable qualities and, and really sort of loathsome qualities. And I love the combination of her. She feels so 3-dimensional to me that it's just a real person who is sort of driven. She just wants to be something other than she is. And she doesn't quite know how to articulate it, but she, she has that ache of wanting to be interesting. I want my life to be interesting. And she doesn't really know how to get there. And she doesn't understand what it means to really look at the difference or the distance to travel between here and there.

And she's kind of the outsider, right?

Yeah.

Everybody else is from the city.

Yeah.

And so then we have Ethan.

We got Ethan. So Ethan is a genius. He's a genius animator. He's been creating this, it's à la Matt Groening who made The Simpsons. I mean, he's, that's like the sort of like analog for Ethan's trajectory. So—

He becomes very successful.

Very successful. He's awkward. He's described as homely in the book. Loves Jules. He is really wry, really funny, really compassionate, has a very strong moral compass. And then he comes into great, great, great success.

Ash?

Ash and Goodman are siblings. They both go to the camp. Ash becomes Jules's best friend. And Ash is like the sun. She's just like— the people gather around her. There's something easy and warm and effortless about her beauty, her charm, her talent. Although we learn, sort of as life goes, that she doesn't have— she doesn't have, like, a great talent. She's not sort of special in that way, but she just has an ease about her that Jules really loves, and she loves Jules. And Goodman, her brother, is big man on campus at camp, has a hard time translating that into his life at home. His parents, they really just— they're at odds, and he kind of loses his way. And he's a big part of why the group disconnects.

An event happens.

Yes.

Kathy?

Kathy is this beautiful modern dancer that goes to the camp, also a part of the Interestings group. She also goes to the camp on scholarship. So some of the stuff that the themes around in the book are about class and economics. And so she's— these are all very privileged kids, or a lot of them are, and she does not come from that same background. Yeah, she's a beautiful dancer, sort of free and easy, and she's also a part of why the group falls apart.

And then Jonah?

Jonah is the son of a famous folk singer. The folk singer's name is Susanna Bay. And Jonah has this really incredible storyline in the book where he basically was drugged by a friend of his mother's. And he, this friend was sort of like a Raffi type. So he was like a children's, he released a song that he stole from this child while this kid was on acid. And it became like a huge, like a Puff the Magic Dragon kind of like song. So this kid grows up with like an incredible amount of damage, but has some sort of virtuosic musicality in him as well. So he's very shrouded in mystery, and then his secret sort of comes out. And yeah, he sort of plays into the alchemy of the whole group.

Which character do you What character do you relate to the most?

Jules.

Jules?

Yeah.

Why?

I relate to feeling like an outsider. I relate to feeling awkward. I relate to feeling the striving of, like, wanting to get closer to something that may or may not materialize. Yeah, she's just very lovable to me. She's deeply flawed, but she's trying, and she just Messes up a lot.

Do you consider yourself deeply flawed?

Oh my God, yes. Yes. I mean, I love me, don't get me wrong. I have like a really healthy ego in that way, but like deeply flawed. And the more that I have gotten intimate with the ways in which I am flawed, the more able I am to love myself for the person I actually am. Instead of pretending I'm something else. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Do you sort of have a sense of humor about it?

Yeah, I think you have to. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

I think that the, um, there is something so endearing about the trying that like, that so often people are trying and they're not doing it right. Like they're missing something, they're missing a connection, they're misunderstanding another person's needs. But like, Really, I think a lot of times people are trying to be good, to do good, and we just like mess up. And I find that very endearing.

So in the book, Jules kind of leaves art and becomes a therapist. Has there ever been anything like that for you where you might have done something else?

No, no, no. Yeah. And not— I, I wouldn't say because I was like, oh, I was so I mean, I was very driven, but I also got super lucky in the way that my career unfolded is I didn't have to make that decision. And so far I have not, but that doesn't mean I won't have to down the road. But like, yeah, I started playing shows and started making a living as a musician a few years into sort of pursuing it full-time. So that was— I mean, I worked my ass off, but like, yeah, it was really lucky circumstance as well. So I've never had the backup plan.

That's weird.

I guess on some level I would, I would maybe would've thought about becoming a teacher. I like kids, I like teaching. And when I do like a masterclass or something now, I love the way it feels to sort of impart whatever kind of cobbled together wisdom I think I have. I like feeling like I'm helping, or trying to at least. So that would be something I would consider, but I wasn't— I wouldn't be a therapist.

Do you give, um, people advice to have a backup plan or not to?

No. If, if you take out the prerequisite that you have to make a living from your art, then you get to just be an artist, and everybody's got to pay their bills. You gotta— like, I had Odd jobs forever. Like, you know, I was a waitress for many years and then thankfully it sort of tipped over and I could actually pay my bills from music alone. But I just feel like if you're a writer and you love to write, don't— why would you put that down? Why would you put down something that you love to do? I realize it's easier said than done maybe sometimes, and maybe there's too much pain in the trying to relate to a path that is not coming to fruition. Like, if you're trying to sell a script and you can't get arrested, you know, I don't know how long. I think that's a really personal decision for people. But no, I, I just tell people, do what you love, pay your bills and do what you love. Seems like a happy life to me.

Yeah. So one kind of theme in here is that you only have one life to live, right?

Yeah.

And Um, let's, let's kind of go through some of the moments in the book and get, get your thoughts on them. So the first one there is on page 4.

Irony was new to her and tasted oddly good, like a previously unavailable summer fruit. Soon she and the rest of them would be ironic much of the time, unable to answer an innocent question without giving their words a snide little adjustment. Fairly soon after that, the snideness would soften. The irony would be mixed in with seriousness, and the years would shorten and fly. Then it wouldn't be long before they all found themselves shocked and sad to be fully grown into their thicker, finalized adult selves with almost no chance for reinvention.

So good.

So good. It's so good. I mean, this idea that you, this sort of plane of possibilities at that age where you're like, all you see are the ways your life is gonna work out. It's like you're almost drunk with the, Thrill of all the different ways you're going to be delighted by what your life brings to you. And then what we know as we age is it's not exactly quite like that. It's not all bad, but it's not all good either. And I love that thicker finalized adult selves with almost no chance for reinvention. Just like at a certain point you are a little bit You just are who you are. And we can reinvent to a degree, but there is some kind of elemental, concretized you in the middle of it all, I think.

So it says, when you stop, you die, he said once at dinner, and everyone at the table had somberly agreed. Stopping was death. Stopping meant you'd give up and turn the keys of the world over to other people. The only option for a creative person was constant motion, a lifetime of busy Whirling in a general forward direction until you couldn't do it any longer.

I mean, and this from Ethan, who is like, he has a kind of like mad genius about him. I mean, he is the one of them who really has like this sort of, this kind of X factor talent that not everybody has. And so it's that thing where you're like feeding the fire and then the fire's growing and then you're like, I can't stop feeding the fire because the fire's growing. But how much of yourself sort of gets usurped and lost to the flames, I think. And yeah, it's like the making becomes all you're doing and then you like never can, you never stop enough to look back and see what you did.

Yeah. Do you think it's healthy to always be in motion?

I don't think too much of anything is healthy without stillness. There's a lot that gets missed. And I think that it feels really productive to keep moving. It feels really efficient. And I think culturally we are really told that that's a very important, very worthy, very noble thing to stay productive, to stay efficient, to stay, to streamline, to do things quickly. So I think motion is more comfortable. But I, I think without stillness and reflection and integration, that it's, it's like another thing to, uh, like it's, it's manic. That's what I think.

Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, I think things come in seasons, and if you can't be silent with yourself and comfortable, you're not as effective when the season of work comes. Yeah, you have to be both, otherwise it's an addiction. You become a workaholic.

Yeah, I think that's right.

And then you don't enjoy it.

Yeah.

This one is all about you.

Part of the beauty of love was that you didn't need to explain it to anyone else. You could refuse to explain. With love, apparently you didn't necessarily feel the need to explain anything at all.

Is that the reason why you didn't want to write the Guy I Love song?

It wasn't a guy at all.

Oh, it wasn't? Well, anybody.

Yeah, it was the record label. I think it's interesting because you were talking about how you don't like the, the, you don't like when it's like, learn to love yourself, that that doesn't resonate for you, that you're like, just like yourself, you know, that love is too, what, too bubbly?

Let's bring it down a little bit. Like, we're not so great. Then you break up with yourself. Like, I would break up with myself all the time. Once a day, I'd have to break up.

Oh yeah. Dynamic relationship.

Too much.

Yeah, totally.

The thing about this, this was just funny to me, is banking camp.

Do you remember that part? No.

We're just hanging around the apartment all day, Ash said. Our dad is hysterical about it. He says Goodman is undisciplined and will one day be unemployed. He says he wishes we'd both gone to banking camp. What is banking camp?

I don't think it exists. I think it's Meg Wolitzer's brain of what a father would've said. Like, ugh, it would've been more reasonable if you guys would've gone to banking camp instead of arts camp, 'cause I could do something with a banker.

It's pretty great.

Funny. Oh, I know this one very well.

You do? Why?

'Cause I've scoured this book many times over because as I said, we're making a musical about it. So it's like looking for these little, moments that feel like gold.

Have you read it like 10 times?

I've read parts of it like 10 times, but I've skipped around. I've done it on audiobook a lot and just like flipped around. And it's really— Did you—

have you storyboarded it or how are you going about it?

Not exactly storyboarding, but it starts with like an outline. And yeah, we're working with Meg and we have a director and we've done workshops and you bring actors in and I've written all the music. And so now it's a full It's a full deal. It's a full real thing that will—

That's fun.

Yeah, it's so fun. It's so fun to make. But this character, Gudrun, who is a camp counselor at Spirit in the Woods Camp, no longer exists in the play. There was just no room for Gudrun.

Cut it out?

Yeah.

Well, this is kind of an interesting moment.

Yeah.

'Cause I wanna— I'm curious if you agree or not.

Okay. What are you asking me exactly? Gudrun said. Why do I think the problems between the men and women of the world are the way they are today? You want to know whether the problems that you teenagers feel, will they follow you over the rest of your lives? Will your hearts always be aching? Is that what you're asking me? Goodman shifted in discomfort. Something like that, he said. Yes, said the counselor in a sudden, plangent voice. Always they will be aching. I wish I could tell you something else, but I wouldn't be telling the truth. My wise and gentle friends, this is the way it will be from now on.

Would you tell kids that it's always going to be aching, or would you tell them it's going to get better?

What I remember thinking about in my 20s is like, oh, it was a trick. Like, nobody told me that there's no, like, happiness plateau, that you just, you feel happy for A little while and then something gets worse. And you're like in the soup again. And I feel like I wasn't well equipped. I just thought it was static. I thought there was some plateau of like, oh, you grow up and you learn the things you're supposed to learn and then you're just a person. But I didn't realize that it was going to be a lifelong kind of negotiation and conversation with your shadow selves and what's painful for you and for others. It's just not one thing, it's not linear. So I think I would like to tell kids the truth. So I think I would say it would be both. What about you?

I guess I don't really, I'm just more inclined to the positive side of things, so I just don't, I don't think that I feel that way, but I don't know. I don't know if it's perspective or not. I don't know. I feel like it's what you create.

I think what I wish someone would have said to me more often was that no matter what happens, you can— you will be able to handle it. You will be sad and you're going to be okay. But not that you're never gonna be sad. I don't want, I don't wanna tell kids that like, your life is gonna be great and you're gonna, everything's gonna work out. I mean, the truth is, is everything kind of does work out some way or another.

Mm-hmm.

But just that idea that like our capacity to handle what is hard, I think it's worth telling kids that they can handle a lot.

How do you, how do you feel like agency plays into that?

I think it plays into it a lot because I think that your perspective that we don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are, you know, that quote. I think that's true. And I'm also inclined to the positive. Like I tend to, I'm definitely a glass half full person. Like make the, make the best out of the situation, try to find the things to be like, Gratitude being a very helpful tool in that regard. But I think there's a difference between people believing that they have agency to change the physical, that they can have exactly the life they want to design, versus that like the life you have might be better than you think it is if you could change your perspective. Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

It's like it becomes about like stuff. And people want like a nicer place and they want a better car and the age, like you have agency, change your life. It can look different. I just think the life-changing thing is about how you relate and how you think about the world. That's a more life-changing thing than like a new car.

2:33. And Yvonne said, we are all here on this earth for only one go-around, and everyone thinks their purpose is just to find their passion. But perhaps our purpose is also to find out what other people need. And maybe the world does not actually need to see you, my dear, reciting a tired old monologue from the Samuel French collection or pretending to be drunk and staggering around. Has that ever occurred to you?

Oh, this is heartbreaking. So Jules wants to be an actor and she pursues it and pursues it. And this person, this acting teacher Finally says to her, like, maybe nobody needs this from you. Like, your dream, you might need to pick a different one. And I think that is so crushing. Like, it's so— I know so many— I can think of so many experiences in my life and in the lives of people around me that it's like, it's just not. come into life. That thing that you're chasing is just like not working. And what do you do when you have to like set it down?

When's, when's the last time that happened to you?

My fertility journey. I'm not pregnant. I've been trying to get pregnant for years. Um, still gonna try to get pregnant. I'm taking a break right now, but, uh, yeah, just like not that part of my life did not go how I was expecting it to go. And I've done all the things and all the doctors and all the treatments and all the stuff. And it's just a really, it's really humbling. It's really humbling to have something that sort of like you feel that it makes sense spiritually. It's like, this is where I think I'm supposed to go and it's not fucking happening. And how do you make Peace with that? How do you make sense of it? Or just, like, surrender to the fact that it just is, and that it doesn't mean I'm gonna stop trying, but the trying is really fucking painful. And I'm not at the place where I'm like, oh, I might have to just set that down. But it doesn't mean I won't get to that place. Like, I'm solidly in the messy middle of the unknown of, like, is this going to happen or not?

And how, how do you come to terms with it?

It's again, like a, not a linear, I've had a lot of really hard dark night of the soul times about it. And a lot of like learning to have grace for it. Oddly, something that brings me a lot of comfort is, is feeling into how wide and vast the network of women who are on the same path and having hardship, like how big that web actually is. It's a wild experience to start to open your eyes because I didn't know about any of the fertility clinics or who goes— like, I didn't know anything about fertility until I started trying to get pregnant. And just the learning is so intense. And you just see how many millions and millions and millions and millions of women who need support to get, or, you know, families who need support to have children. It's just crazy.

That's a, that's a great example, 'cause that's rough.

But I also think it just relates to this idea of, you know, when people have to put their dreams down, it's like a death, you know? It's really so much grief in that. It's the grief of the person you thought you would become. It's the grief of You know, whatever you felt like that would bring into your life, the possibility. I don't know. It's really rich.

Does Buffalo nipple make it in the play?

Buffalo nipple? No.

You cut Buffalo nipple?

We cut Buffalo nipple, but we should read about it.

Go ahead.

What happened in Jules's dorm room at Buffalo would become something that neither of them spoke about for years. And then finally, Jules brought it up once when they were alone. Casually referring to the event as the Buffalo Nipple, a name which stuck. The Buffalo Nipple became a secret phrase that referred not only to this specific event, but to any misguided action that a person might perform in life out of longing or weakness or fear, or pretty much out of anything human.

I think we've decided that we're gonna use the Buffalo Nipple here. Kind of funny. Okay, this one. My question for you is, when you're writing music, do you have the audience in mind?

Hmm.

So what's the verdict? Gil asked, his voice husky with vulnerability. Should I keep giving it a whirl? The moment extended into infinity. If the point of drawing was to bring your work into the world so that other people can see it and sense what you'd meant to convey, then no. Gil should not keep giving it a whirl. He should never draw anything again. No whirls. He should be— it should be illegal for Gil Wolf to possess charcoal sticks. But if the point was something else, expression or release, or a way to give private meaning to the loss of your son, your child, your boy, then yes, he should draw and draw. Of course, Ethan said.

Oh, that's a beautiful passage. I forgot that even happened. So Gil's son is Goodman.

Yeah.

And Gil, uh, and Goodman disappears in this book. Well, we know where he goes, but Gil doesn't. Anyway, I don't wanna give away too much of the plot 'cause I really want people to read the book. Um, I do have my audience in mind when I'm reading. I mean, when I'm writing, but I am more concerned with staying in really intimate connection with what I like consider to be source, you know, like that I'm open to whatever is channeling. Like, that's my philosophy. Like, a lot of artists share this, you know, that it's none of the music is mine, that it's just— Belongs. And I happen to be the place that it's finding its little path through. I love that in Rick Rubin's book that you have out there where they talk about just like the ideas looking for the hospitality, basically. Like the ideas are all racing around and they're looking for the open doorway. And so I'm trying to stay really tuned to that when I'm writing more than the audience. But I do have them in mind. I don't want— I don't— I want to write things that, that take them, that take them somewhere.

Okay, let's jump ahead to, uh, 320. Everyone tended to believe everything was their fault. Maybe it was just hard to imagine when you were still fairly young that there were some things in the world that were just not about you.

Dude, the narcissism of humanity.

Well, and youth.

Youth, totally. But also just people that we're just, we can't believe that our thoughts, we can't believe that our perspective isn't like the most important one. Like, how could it not be? But yes, especially as youth.

Okay, let's go to the last tab.

All right. But she knew you didn't have to marry your soulmate, and you didn't even have to marry an interesting. You didn't always need to be the dazzler, the firecracker, the one who cracked everyone up or made everyone want to sleep with you, or be the one who wrote and starred in the play that got the standing ovation. You could cease to be obsessed with the idea of being interesting. Anyway, she knew the definition could change. It had changed for her. I think this has to do with, I mean, Jules's arc in this novel, also in the show, is like, the show ends with a song called The Meaning of Life, which is very like, that's her learning in this life and in this part of her life, is that we see her kind of come to a peaceful place with not being special. My therapist always talks about this, that everyone has unique and ordinary medicine that we walk around and what we have to give each other. And the medicine is telling the truth, but the truth that we all carry is unique and ordinary. And so there is no hierarchy. We all have something extremely valuable that we carry around and we exchange. And I love that because I feel like that's Jules's learning, is that this idea of being interesting is just in opposition to just being, that just being is interesting, and she doesn't have to search for it to be something else.

Drop the book.

Interesting.

Well, thank you for introducing us to this. I'm excited to see what you guys do with it.

Thank you. I'm excited to share it.

That's very fun. Let's talk about your new album.

Okay.

What is it called?

It's called Good Grief, and, um, it's about grief. Wait.

Good grief though.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, over the last— since I've been writing this since 2020, and it's just every kind of loss.

So COVID to now.

COVID, 2 best friends who passed away, my infertility journey, the death of democracy, like all of the things. Everything's in there. It's just like, my hope is that there is I know, I know to be true for a fact that there is plenty of hope in the record as well. It's not a, it's not somber.

Well, it's good grief.

Yeah, it's good grief. It's, it's transformative grief.

How, how early on in the process did you have the name?

Very late.

Very late.

Yeah, super late. Just like kind of feeling into the themes that were hap— you know, obviously coming to the foreground and then, yeah, it's just such a juicy title.

Where'd you record it?

I recorded most of it upstate New York at a place called Dreamland Studios, and then some stuff at Long Pond Studios with Aaron Dessner. But all of it was upstate, a little bit at Electric Lady in New York. But yeah, all East Coast and mostly upstate.

Is there a vibe? Is there an energy in Electric Lady?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I've done a lot of recording there. I'm gonna say something I preferred upstate. I mean, I love Electric Lady, but I really—

But the mood you were in was more upstate?

Yeah, I needed the nature. I needed the, like, the tranquility. I mean, what's great about Electric Lady is it's like smack in the middle of the West Village. It's like in the center of New York City, but—

The energy's more up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's great.

Yeah, yeah.

Most vulnerable song on there?

For you, there's a song called Forever on there. It's written for one of my best friends. It's written for a few people who have passed, but it's really my friend Gavin's song. Um, it's written from the perspective of the person who's dying. And so it's tender. Yeah. It's hard to talk about. I've done an interview about the song recently and I was like, couldn't get through it without crying. It's really raw.

Is Gavin who you wish would like move a cup? So you knew.

Come on, dude.

Dude, showing me a sign.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would take it. Um, he was just— I mean, I felt when I met him, and we've been— we were friends for like 10 years and then he was gone, but, um, I felt like I fell in love. It was like a romantic love. And he's very gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay. And, um, I couldn't believe the bigness of feeling I had for this, like, new person in my life. Just a total special little sparkler. Yeah. And then gone.

That's fun. I can't wait to hear it.

Yeah, it's good to share it.

Thank you for doing this.

Thank you so much for having me.

Appreciate it.

Yay!

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