The "Top 10" List You DON'T Want Your Business to be on

Welcome everybody to the big show. I'm Chris Collins. This is Chris Cohen, better known as Papi Chulo. Papi Chulo. We have an episode today that is for everybody who's been disappointed with customer service. There's tons of examples of companies out there that put profits before customer service or they're just too big, dumb and stupid to care about customers because they have a monopoly in whatever industry they're in. But our guest today has a solution and a new award that he's giving out that is the Oscars of terrible customer service.

It's the Razzies of customer service.

The Razzie. So today we have Michael Levine who is an American writer and public relations expert. He is the author of books on public relations including Guerrilla PR which is a must read for anybody interested in marketing. And his best selling book Broken Windows. Broken Business was just re released with new content and thoughts from the author himself. Michael has represented 58 Academy Award winners, 34 Grammy Award winners and 43 New York Times bestsellers including Michael Jackson, Barbra Streisand, Joan Rivers, George Carlin, among many others. His work has included non paid media council for former presidents Ronald Reagan, George H.W. bush and Bill Clinton. Michael is often referred to as the Michael Jordan of entertainment pr. So let's get ready, get out a pen and pencil to take some notes for this edition of Service Drive Revolution.

Good to see you today, Michael. How are you?

I'm just fine. Dear friend, it's always a pleasure to talk to you and I'm very grateful that you share your valuable audience with me. It's a very inspired group.

You were when you came on and did our quarterly coaching meeting. They still talk about it to this day, the knowledge that you shared with everybody. And I personally always love talking to you because I always learn a couple things. So this is, this is gonna be really fun. So first we should just start off by saying that your best selling book and a must read for everybody out there in any sort of. Well, whether you're in business or you're a customer, this is a great read.

Both sides, so.

Both sides. So everybody should read this. Broken Windows, Broken Business. It is iconic. You've heard us talk about it many times. But you just refreshed it or redid it and added some new stuff, right?

About 25% new material, Chris, in this book. And I think it makes it much more relevant to certain aspects of contemporary American life or contemporary life, not American life, All life sold all over the world.

Yeah, it's interesting. I think I Have I have this in Korean, I think, which I think I had you sign, which is a prized possession. So one thing my. My crack team of researchers scoured the web and came up with this list you wrote online called the 10 worst customer service corporations slammed by Best Selling Authority first annual Broken Windows Award. So you're giving out awards now, correct?

That's right.

What is the one that they do in the movies? The Raspies or the.

Right, yeah. And we used to also. There was also the worst dressed list at the Oscars. But yes, they do. Razzies I want to spotlight. I'm sick and tired of watching large corporations treat customers.

In a non human way. I'm sick of it. And so I thought we could take the success of Broken Windows, Broken Business and turn it into a movement kind of like the movie network in which the lead character says, I'm sick and tired and I'm not going to take it anymore. Well, that's what this list is about. It's about spotlighting the shameful treatment of customers by 10 major corporations. And they should all be ashamed of themselves. They should be. Each one of these corporations.

If they were honest and had any integrity, would be so disgraced by being on this list that they would make a radical change in their customer service approach.

Do you think that in some situations it needs to go as far as the CEO needs to go?

I do. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. You know, if you're presiding over an organization that has made a public declaration to treat customers as if they are non human, I think you, you need to go.

I like it and I agree with a lot of this list. So let's kind of go down this. So the first one on here is from the insurance industry.

Graceful. The whole group of them are disgraceful. And one that I'm particularly incensed with of late is State Farm. You know this obnoxious slogan they have like a good neighbor.

Darling, if they treat neighbors like this, you wouldn't have many neighbors. But there's a. It's a whole industry that's a great.

Example of where they get the propaganda. Right. But they can't fulfill on the back end.

Exactly. Not even close to. They don't even make an effort to. And I would rather State Farm remove the slogan from their advertising if they're going to continue to treat customers as they do. And they're not alone in the insurance industry. Almost all insurance companies treat customers like they're pond scum. And if they're going to treat them that way, that's fine. It's not fine. But they shouldn't say, like a good neighbor.

Give me a break on rye.

Right. They're way more apt to be the neighbor that's going to borrow your lawnmower, wreck the blade, bring it back with no gas. Like, that's the kind of neighbor State Farm is.

I do love when companies get so big, though, that the marketing department doesn't communicate with the rest of the.

Correct. That's right. Almost invariably, Chris, as you know, big equals stupid, complacent. Right. When you build an organization to a certain size, it almost inevitably turns stupider, more complacent, lazier. Now, there are some examples that I think should be reviewed very carefully who have not done that. Number one on the list, Amazon. I would encourage every single person listening to this to go on the web and look at the Amazon 14 Leadership Principles. They are so inspiring.

And it's really a credit, of course, to Jeff Bezos, but also to an organization. Look at those leadership principles. Read them, print them out, keep them around, because they're pretty damn good.

Yeah. And we'll put a link to that in the description. I do believe it's just Amazon leadership. I believe it's that simple. But, yeah, they're great. Well, one other thing I was going to say to that is it also seems like the bigger the company, the more entitled they are.

Correct. The more complacent, the more titled, the more.

Yeah. Big is not a recipe for great. Very often that big is a recipe for making a lot of money sometimes. But.

They really should be just. They should be ashamed of themselves.

Okay, now, why did Dish Network win a broken business award?

Did you ever call Dish Network?

Yeah.

Try it. Try it. Sometime you'll want to commit suicide. The way they treat people on the phone with their push 1, push 2, push 1, push 2. Your call is very important to us. Please hold for the next 30 minutes. I mean, what can one say?

Yeah, it does kind of inspire me, though. So let's say that we wanted to do something like fix the drug epidemic in the United States. We could legalize all drugs, but in order to get them, they have to call Dish Network customer service.

That is exactly genius.

You would solve the drug problem in America tonight. Heroin.

Done.

I don't want it. I'll exercise.

Okay. Why? What about Equifax, made them win the broken business award again?

You know, these reporting, credit reporting services treat customers.

As if they are.

As if they. The customer is lucky to.

Be graced by Equifax. They don't start as Mr. Bezos does. See, Chris, I have a contention. Most businesses in America today are not producing properly because they come at questions, all questions, through the prism of what is good for the owner and what is good for the staff. Right. So most businesses in America are faced with hundreds of questions per day, and almost all of them answer each of the questions predicated on is it good for the owner, is it good for the staff? Mr. Bezos says, I don't give a rat's what's good for the owner or the staff. I care what's good for the customer. If you treat the customer as the boss, as the divine inspiration for the business, listen to me, I said divine inspiration. How would you treat something divine? With great care, great reverence. Wouldn't you? If you treat the customer as the all important divine inspiration.

Don'T you worry about the owner, don't you worry about the staff? That'll all work out. But worship, worship, worship the customer.

You know, one thing, Michael, in my travels that I found as an indicator. So there's just certain things that.

Tell you about the business, right?

100%. That's what broken windows is.

Yeah. You know, if this happens, then they're losing money. You don't even have to look at the financial statement. One thing that always tells me the culture is broken and most of the time they're dramatically underperforming or they're losing money is if the owner of the company says to me, if you take care of the people, they'll take care of the customers. So if you take care of the employees, they'll take care of the customers. Never have I seen that have a positive outcome on the customers.

Correct. It is 1,000% correct. It's a brilliant insight and it shows a mindset of an owner that's simply trying to respond to a issue through a slogan, not through hard work or.

Their parents didn't tell them that they loved them enough and he's looking for validation and love through his employees.

That's brilliant, Chris. So many owners have the almost pathological need to be liked by their staff.

They want to be popular. Well, they're not running for prom king or queen. They're running a business. And by the way, I've often said, Chris, I hope you agree with this, but I'll ask you, if you own a business in America, if you own a business in America and somebody refers to you as either tough or cheap.

The proper response is thank you.

Okay. If you own a business in America and someone refers to you as tough or cheap, that Means you're doing a good job. What the hell do you think you have to do to own a business?

Well, I also, I also don't want this to be lost on people because I know that.

You have the same outcome that people that work for you enjoy working for you. And you make them better by working for you.

100%.

The idea that you can't like the people that you work with is not in conflict with the customer having a great outcome. But if the customer is the focus and everybody really pay attention to this, if the customer is the focus, you will attract employees that have the same passion for customers that you do, and then you will in turn like them. But if everybody's sitting in a room trying to be liked, the customer becomes irrelevant. Nobody's paying attention to the customer. So you can still have both. You just have to have a common goal and, and have a, you know, have a common belief system. And you can't always program that into people. Sometimes you need people. You gotta go recruit some new people that share that passion for customers.

Well, let me just make a couple of references. Cause I agree with what you're saying. I would only emphasize it a little differently.

The customer should not be the focus. The customer should be the burning maniacal rage of focus, total and complete, not partial.

Second.

Steve Jobs said something brilliant when he was alive. He said many things that were brilliant. But I think this is one worth repeating in terms of employees and team members about Apple. He said A's want to play with A and B's want to play with Cs because it makes them feel like A's. Isn't that interesting? You're better off.

Recruiting people who share a burning maniacal rage to achieve best practices. World class constant ceaseless improvement.

And you know, anything short of that leads to a sense of atrophy and then ultimate death. Which is why so many businesses are underperforming to a large degree.

So one more thing. On Equifax for winning their award of the broken. You know the Broken Windows award is the slogan you suggest in here for them is we're not happy till you're not happy.

Correct. That's how they behave. That is how they behave. That's right. Facts are stubborn things.

Now the, the next Broken Windows award goes to Facebook and what you wrote is bad customer service. How about no customer service? Have you ever spoken to a live human at Facebook? Exactly. It's impossible. You have better luck landing a tell all interview with Bigfoot.

Well, it's all true. You know, facts Are stubborn things.

Oh, and then McDonald's.

Oh, my God. If. If Ray Kroc somehow were resurrected today and came back and walked into an average McDonald's. Right. I think he would die a second death. It's painful to think that McDonald's, which was an outstanding middle class.

Fast food establishment, has fallen into what looks to me to be a commissary at a car wash in a really bad neighborhood. It's pathetic. And it had all, I don't know if you know about Ray Kroc. When he had franchisees originally, not only did he insist that the franchisees keep the store spotless, he insisted they keep the area one block, one square block from the store spotless. So the franchisee had to walk a block each way and keep that spotless. You think that's obsession?

Yeah, but I don't think that's happening anymore.

I would agree with you, sir.

Okay, the next one you have on here is Monsanto.

Yep, we got it. Another company that does not walk its talk in terms of best practices, in my opinion. And we've gotten tremendous reaction to the Broken Windows award list and just we're already accepting nominations for next year.

I got a couple for you here at the end. I want to make sure I get a bid. Okay, the next one.

By the way, Chris, if I could just mention something. You know, there's a trend going on in contemporary America that I think is going to be better.

Understood in the next year or two, and that is the adoption of virtue signaling. And this woke virtue signaling among American corporations.

And I can name many corporations that have engaged in this.

Nonsense. Starbucks, Nike. Listen, in case Starbucks is unclear, people are not going to Starbucks to get a lecture. They're going to Starbucks to get a cup of coffee. Fast, Good, hot. They're not going for a political lecture on how they're an awful person, how they live in an awful nation, this type of thing. So this woke.

Virtue signaling, which is an effort, a simple effort for corporations to basically buy off protection.

Is absolutely antithetical to the broken windows of the customer service experience.

Yeah. So I grew up in Seattle and was familiar with Starbucks when there were only seven locations and you could only buy the beans, like, you know, at the Pike Place Market in Seattle. And they very much adopt Seattle's.

Take on things with that, which is very liberal. First, customer, second.

And yeah, yeah, we don't go to major league baseball games, basketball games, watch the Oscars.

Nike.

We don't go for a political lecture, which is why attendance is so down. Whatever Their political feelings are. They're permitted to have, obviously. But the divine mission of a business is to provide outstanding customer service and outstanding products and meet their best practices. Not to give lectures to Americans about how awful they are for one reason or another.

Yeah, yeah. My mom and her husband.

Won'T watch or go to a Seahawks game anymore, which is something that our whole family shared, and her husband's a veteran. And when all that happened with Kaepernick and all that. So I bought tickets to the game after Christmas this year for my family, and they won't go.

Yeah, no, I'm out. That's what many American.

And it's a football game. It's a football game.

Yeah. There's a slogan, Chris, that you likely have heard, which is get woke, go broke. And I think pretty. Pretty prescient.

Yeah, that's. That's one you can live by. Okay, what about Spectrum?

Oh, again, it's simple. Pull out a cell phone and try calling them. Just try right now. You'll see. And their TV commercials are so antithetical to the real visceral, palpable experience that customers have. It's un. You know, I'm a Spectrum customer, unfortunately.

I mean, if you have a problem, good luck.

Now, you would widely be considered an expert in marketing, propaganda, PR and messaging. Yeah. People pay you a lot of money.

And that is true.

You're one of a handful of people in this country that you could say that about.

Chris, I've talked to Spectrum employees and I said to them very politely, sir, ma', am, aren't you embarrassed? Have you ever called Spectrum yourself and they said, yeah, we agree, it's horrible. It's a disgrace. It's a crack up.

So funny. Just bend over and take it.

At least it's honest.

Yeah.

Then the next one you had on here is United Airlines, which.

That airline companies are too easy a target.

Yeah. And then Wells Fargo.

I would say that in my book, that's a tie with bank of America.

Both horrible. Wells Fargo has been guilty of criminal behavior, as you know.

And.

And bank of America is the quintessential example of get big, get stupid, get complacent.

It's pathetic, and I've had it. And I want customers to start rebelling against this and not taking it anymore.

Start a movement.

Start a movement. Fire big companies. Fire them. Just forget it. You're. You're out now.

Also because they were, they were nominated and they won an award, you took the liberty of helping them with their slogan and their marketing. So currently it is Life's better when we're connected. You rewrote that for them. Your life will be better when you're in prison.

That is true.

Yeah. I don't. I don't know that they get it. So.

If anybody has a suggestion for the broken windows award 2022, Michael's made it really easy. Just. Broken windows award 2022. Mail.com.

Correct.

He will take it into consideration. You know, give him, give him an explanation. Tell him why and.

Yeah, tell me your story. Tell me. Great. But look, Chris, central to your thinking, I think. To mine. I know to mine. Consumers make decisions every day. They're voting, if you will. There's like election day, 365 days a year. And who they choose to give their money to is a vote. And they can stop some of this. Not all of it, but some of it. And it only has to happen with a small. If you are sick and tired of a business treating you like you're subhuman, then try to find some other alternative, particularly a young or it doesn't matter if they're young, an entrepreneur who is willing to work extra hard for your business. I know you work in the car.

Dealer arena very, very successfully. There is a car dealership in Santa Monica, California, BMW. Now, as you know, BMW is a luxury product, right?

Yeah.

Now, if you go to Santa Monica BMW today, your customer and you walk in and you go to. And you're waiting for your car, and you go to the little area in which they have coffee.

Refreshment for the customer.

They don't have any tea.

They barely have coffee. Now, again, that isn't consistent, in my opinion, with a luxury product. I'm not angry with them. I'm just saying if you own a BMW dealership in an affluent community of Santa Monica, California, how you treat little things like the condiment counter or the refreshment area is very important. And another trend that businesses are making a mistake around is trying to automate everything. They're trying to assume that for the ease of their life, they can automate everything. And people don't want to talk to more machines. They want to talk to human beings with a smile.

Now, the thing with that, though, Michael, that I think is important to point out is that it's a sad.

It's a sad fact that often you get a better outcome from a machine, correct?

That's correct.

So if I go into a Barnes and Noble to buy a book and wait in line and then I get up to the thing and they're like, are you a Member of the club in the thing. And it takes forever just to buy a book. And then nobody even says thank you. Nobody chats. No, I go to Amazon and I buy a book, I at least get a hey, thank you for your order.

That's right.

And then the thing shows up the next day.

Who is hiring these people? Who's training these? It's rough, it's awful. And you know, you can tell a well run business very often by is there an owner or a manager present? And is the manager present.

On times outside the normal Monday through Friday, Friday 9 to 5. Right. If you have an excellent manager, you'll have an excellent store and an excellent manager shows up on nights and weekends. That's just how it is. There's no shortcut to these things. Which of course is why so many businesses choose not to avail themselves. There's no shortcut, but you can win big if you're willing to work tirelessly and make the customer number one.

Yeah, so I have, I don't know if you have a nomination, but I have two. One go. We share. In the last four years, I have never flown on American Airlines where the flight wasn't delayed or canceled.

Correct. 100% never. If, if a, if a flight leaves or arrives on time, you almost want to say what happened? I don't understand.

So Christian and I have joked about not wearing a mask. So we get kicked off and banned for life. So our office can never book us on American. Unfortunately, some of the places we go, it's, it's the only place that, that, you know, the only airline that flies there. So that's, that's one, my, my second one is the band Metallica. And so maybe a lot of people don't know this about me, but I, I, I love vinyl. I have a collection of vinyl records. I have, I mean, someday, Michael, you have to come over and I can play you some old spoken word vinyls that I have that are out of print, that are incredible from people that you might not expect that made, you know, made a record. But back in the day that was, that was a form of communication and how, you know, books and, and vinyl records were how a message was, you know, delivered in a mass scale. And so I like to collect stuff that's, you know, special and limited. I like the experience of getting like a box set, like the recent Tom Petty box set that Rick Rubin did of Wildflowers is incredible. The, the George Harrison one that came out is all things fast.

Yeah.

And then there's, you know, they always have photo books in there, that liner notes. Yeah. And a lot like a live album that you never heard or you know, that sort of thing. And it just, I have a stereo that you know is.

Does justice to good, well mastered records. So Metallica re released their Black Album on vinyl and they, they made some box sets and at the highest end of the box sets they made a, it's a limited to a thousand. It has some extra records in there, an extra book and some, some other things. And it's a, it's about, I think it was about $400 for the, for the, for the limited edition vinyl box set of the, the Black Album. And I went online when I heard it was coming out and I, and I looked where to order it. Well, one of the places that came up to order it was Metallica's actual website, metallica.com. now oftentimes I would order these through vinyl record stores because I want to, I want to support the businesses. Yeah. But I was like, oh, it's Metallica. You know, I'll buy it directly from them. And maybe, you know, it's a little more special because it's limited and it came from their website. So I order that. I ordered my fiance a T shirt, like a little extra small Metallica T shirt that I thought was cute. And I ordered a Master of Puppets photo book. So three things I ordered. Now as soon as I hit send on the order, I get an email from a company called Music Glue. So it ends up Metallica doesn't do anything. They outsource their shopping cart, whatever you call that, their online store to a company called Music Glue. Okay, that's fine. Music Glue comes from the UK, I believe, Music Glue. So I thought it was weird when they sent me the tracking that my package had been shipped and that it was, you know, some company I'd never heard of. But it wasn't dhl, which usually they will use in Europe, but it was something else. And I keep checking for the delivery of it, the delivery of it. And two weeks later I get what is basically a garbage bag. A really heavy thick garbage bag that has two things in, has the Master of Puppets book and it has the T shirt but there's no box set.

Right.

And so I, I email Music Glue and I send them a picture and I say, hey, there's no, there's no record in here. And they basically say we checked with our shipping department and it weighed this amount when it left. And it's, you know, it's your problem. But we, we certainly Shipped it in a garbage bag because they're trying to save. So they don't send it in a box. They send it in, you know, plastic. And I said, why didn't get it? Like, you know, that isn't what was delivered to me. And so then I go, I'd use PayPal to pay for it. I contested on PayPal. PayPal says I have to fire up file a police report. I go to the local police department in weho. They tell me that if I never got it, nothing was stolen, so I can't file a police report. And basically I hit up Metallica on Instagram. I know people that know them, but none of the people I know that know Lars and all that from Metallica would tell him that they're idiots for outsourcing their customer service. But I'm going to tell you something.

I'm.

I won't listen to Metallica anymore. I won't. And the one which is the broken windows.

This is what you've just described as a broken windows theory in a personal idiosyncratic real life example. And it happens sadly all the time. I'm simply trying to tell corporations in America if history has not been kind.

History has not been kind to companies who treat customers like scum. Okay, so you're free to do it if you want. But history hasn't been kind to companies who treat customers like non humans. And most companies do it particularly worse.

Or the large corporations. Chris, if I could mention about your organization.

Your organization functions in my opinion, exceedingly well. In part, in large part maybe because of your hiring decisions. I have known you for several years and you have an associate named Patricia who runs much of your activities. Now, if you said to me, and you know I'm no easy grader, you said to me, michael, what grade would you is your experience with Patricia over the last couple years, what grade would it be? I'd say, well, A plus. Now, I'm not an easy grader.

There is a correlation between who you staff in your key management positions, the attitude that they have and the capacity that they have and an organization functioning well. So, you know, if Patricia, if you had hired somebody who was significantly less effective, who I might get a C or D from me this.