Ep 176: Learning From a Real Life Rich Dad with Corey Peterson

Risk of trying to be all in one one area. We like to have a little bit multiple options. We're even starting to look at some self storage as a another asset class that we see some opportunities in.

Welcome to the Next Level Income show where it's our goal to take your income, your investments and your life to the next level. I'm your host Chris Larsen. If you haven't yet, get a copy of our book for free at our website next level income.com. that's www.nextlevelincome.com. just click on the book link and I'll even send you a copy if you put your address in. On today's show we have Corey Peterson. Corey Peterson is the CEO and founder of Kahuna Investments. Corey has acquired over 250 million in real estate nationwide and raised over a hundred million dollars in private equity. He's the best selling author of Copy youy Way to Success. Standing on the Shoulders of Giants. We're going to tell you how to get a free copy if you listen here today. And he hosts the Multi Family Legacy podcast. His company's mission is to partner with passive investors to create award winning apartment communities families are proud to call home. Corey, great to see you. Welcome to the show.

Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, no, I'm, I'm excited to talk to you. I think this has been, this has been an interesting year, 2023. And you know, it's, it's been tough to make deals work. You know, we've really learned the pitfalls of some certain things that are out there. We're going to talk about all that as well as more. But first I, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your background. Well, I should say I, I'd love to hear it again, but I'd love for you to share it with the, with the audience here.

Yeah. Well, so I got a really crazy story and it's, it's really a rags to riches story of starting. I used to be a used car salesman. And you know, that kind of joking, just the worst kind of car salesman ever, I think. Then I met my wife or my girlfriend, now my wife of 21 years and she made me smoking and she got me the right line. But it was really almost 22 years ago. And that's when my life changed forever. My mom was married to this man named Bruce and I call him Bruce Wayne. He wasn't Batman, but he did have a lot of money. And we go to Kauai, the Garden island in Hawaii. And you Know, he had a house right on the beach. And I mean, he just. Bruce had time and money. A lot of us have one, not very. Very few of us have both. He had them both and it was different. And so I had to ask him, what did he do? That's what he said, the magic words. He said he was in real estate and they owned apartments. And so I left that island thinking that Bruce was the big kahuna. Like, he had it going on. And, you know, shortly after about three months there, I read the little purple book, rich dad, poor dad. And I was like, oh my God, that's. Bruce is a real estate investor.

Yeah.

And Bruce was self made. And I thought if he could do it, I could do it. And so in 2005, I was like, I'm ready to do it. What I call my company, and I called it Kahuna Investments. Wanted to be the big kuna like Bruce.

I started the big Kahuna. You're just Kahuna, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So I started off in the family space because that's where a lot of us initially start.

Yeah.

And but here's what. What I realized real quickly was there's no scalability. And if you're only flipping for profits, you are a trader, you're not true to the cash flow idea, and you're definitely paying a lot more taxes than you're supposed to. And so I had to really change my model. And so it took me a minute, but in 2011 is when we bought our apartment. And not trying to shorten the story here, but like, you know, in the single family space. Yeah. I learned how to raise because I was, you know, 2009, 2010, there was no money to get out there, so you had to get creative and learn how to raise private money from investors. And so we learned that we had to have a pitch deck, you know, before and after, we had to be able to sell our story. And so we did that in the single family space. And. But the only problem is it's like, you know, six months, give me your money, I'll take it. They give it back. And then we got to find another deal.

Yeah.

And there was just no scalability to it. So when we drove by an apartment complex and I used to say, I wish I could own an apartment. And on this day, I said, how can I? And that's really when the whole of apartments really opened up to me. And so I went and got smart on it. I found a mentor to. And it really, a lot of times the mentor is the key and founded someone to teach me the game and how to underwrite, how to. How to model success. Right. And in 2011, we bought our first deal through 2 million bucks, raised $1.4 million. And Chris, we kept that deal for five years and I sold it for 8.8 million.

Nice.

And so now we own $250 million of commercial real estate all across the United States. We've raised over almost $100 million of private equity. And it's a, it's an amazing story. And it's like anything else. If you put your mind to anything long enough and consistently, you can find success. And really there's lots of ways to make additional cash flow and revenue. And you know, in your show, I'm sure a lot of are listening to this are investors. You know, they have money and what do I do with it? And I just know I was a formerly advisor, so I come from that, that game a little bit. And I can tell you all the dirty stories that brokers really, when you're not there. But the truth is they don't really care about your money. And there's not as many levers. Right. When, when the market crashed, I was a financial advisor. Crash 2007, 8, 9. And all I can say is, well, it's the market and you. And here I thought I was being a great financial advisor to people, but I really realized I had no control. And that's why I love real estate is because we so many more levers when, you know, Covid happens or, you know, interest rates right now they're doubling, you know, double in value. And so like get lean. We, you know, look at our staffing, make sure our supply chain is very efficient. There's levers that we can move and manipulate to make sure that we get to the next greener pastures. And I think that's why I love what the power of real estate does.

No, it's a fantastic story. And Corey, you don't know this, but I heard your story like five years ago before we met initially. And I was like, wow. And I'll never, I'll never forget that. So when your team reached out and we got connected, I was like, oh, this is fantastic. I can't wait to have Corey. Corey on the podcast to tell the story again. Because it's really like, like you talked about Bruce. It's, it's almost like when I heard your story, I was like, that's like rich dad, poor dad in real life.

For Corey, it was, it really was. So, you know, it's way of, you know, the way the universe works. But, like, from that moment on, that's when my life changed, is like something different had come in. And for me, I had a real live mentor that I could see, that I could touch. And for that, it made it way more realer for me. And what led. It's led to a lot of success.

No, I love that. And you said a few things in there that I think are so important and really not only exemplify why you're successful, but you know, how any. Anybody, if you're listening today, you should take this in mind. So one of my favorite books is something that my wife gave me. It's called the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. And actually my younger son happens to be reading it. And he talks about if you believe something with all your heart and all your mind, the universe will conspire. Will conspire. We'll get together. That's what conspire means, to get together, to make it happen. And that same son, he wants to learn how to do a backflip. Corey. So we take him to the local gymnastics place this past weekend. And, you know, he can kind of. He knows the mechanics of a back hamstring, back, ham, back, back, hands, hamstring, handspring. And so he kind of knows, like, how to do it, but he's never done a back handspring or a backflip. And the coach says, oh, can you do this? And he goes, I can't do that. And he said, you don't know how to do it yet. And, you know, I loved how you said, what changed for me was the day I asked, how can I. And if you're listening and you want to make something happen, there's a lot of people in your life that'll say, oh, you can't do that. Or, you know, I remember, you know, we're about to. We have a mobile home park under contract. And I'll never forget telling my wife's aunt one time about. I was like, I'm going to buy mobile home parks. Buy mobile homes. And she said, that's crazy. Like, you want to get shot. You know, this is, you know, all the reasons why we shouldn't do it. And I was like, well, how? Like, what's the right way to do it? And for you, having that Bruce in your life, you know, really allowed you to do that. And that's why we do this show, is so people can listen. If you're listening to. You can hear, you know, Corey's story of Going, there's clues.

There's l. There's so many clues, Chris, and stuff like that. And what I've learned to. To my lesson is I don't listen from broke people. Right. And I know that sounds kind of crude food, but like, if I wanted to learn how to buy, you know what you just said, mobile home parks, I would find that was in mobile home parks at a very high level. And I would say, what do you do that's successful? What do you don't do, right? And then just model it, right? Like that's really the success formula is find someone that's doing what you were, where you want to go and then copy it. And when you do it, you do it long enough, then you can finally, once you've mastered the model, that's when you sprinkle your special sauce. You're the salt bay on it.

Yeah, right.

And you start kind of making your own unique recipe to what already works. And it's funny, but even, you know, money investing, like when I think about investors out there that were in just the stock market, they had a financial advisor. It takes a lot of courage to, to step out from that and say, I'm going to do something different that every financial advisor would poop on. And the reason they're going to poop on it, because they don't really know.

They don't.

Right?

Yeah, it's. It's scary, right? If you're. I like to say, you know, it's. It's like my wife, she's. She was talking about. We were talking about teaching the boys how to. How to use a firearm. And, you know, it's. It was intimidating for her because she didn't grow up around. Around guns. And I said, listen, sweetheart. I said, and maybe I may be triggering, no pun intended, people that are listening. But I said, hey, I said, if I told you, hey, hop in the car, get in my car and drive the boys to school. And you'd never driven before. I said, would. Would you be nervous that you might hurt them? And she said, absolutely. I said, so you go out, you learn how to drive, you go to an instructor, you do all these things. Anxiety comes from ignorance. And the more we can educate ourselves and ask, how can I that does that. The other dirty secret, which you know, Corey, from being in the financial industry is. And I know this because some of our investors have told me this, that are financial advisors. They say, well, Chris, I'm actually prohibited from investing in these per my contract. So not only can I not tell my clients about it. But I can't even invest in these either because they're salespeople and they're selling away. No different than when I was in the medical device space. If a surgeon said to me, Chris, what product should I use? And I recommended my competitors product, I would get fired because that's not my job.

There's a rule with finance advisors. You only sell what your broker, your broker, dealer allows you to sell.

Yeah.

And, and it really is called selling away. And it's interesting when you look at it from that self lens that they're coming from and they will never tell you, they'll say that sounds. Do you, are you sure you want to do that? But the truth is, you know, most financial advisors are pitching 6 to 8% returns. Yeah.

And that's, and look, and look, that's not, that's not terrible in certain circumstances.

Not.

But the fact of the matter is, you know, you, you just said, hey, learn from somebody that that has done it.

Take some matters in your own hands and, and get together, find smart people. Listening to this podcast is one of those steps, right. Of educating yourself in the ways of money. And because rich people tend to want a little bit more control at least when I look around and you get super wealthy, you become a family office and you hire people to watch your money. Right. And they don't go in the stock market. They have people that actually make that money and make the investments themselves. And so a lot of times with syndications of what we do in the side, it's kind of like, it's almost like taking that concept but allowing you to do it in fractionalized piece. Right?

Absolutely. And that's, that's, that's been. Our mission is to help bring, you know, those institutional assets that have been reserved typically, you know, for the institutions, for the endowments, for the private or the, the family offices. Bring, bring them to every, every person. Because when I heard about it, I was like, just like you read Rich Dad Port, I was like, I got to become accredited. I got to get access to these special investments. Now Corey, you started in multifamily just like I did. You got, you beat me to it by a couple of years, certainly. And you've learned a lot here. We were chatting here before the show. You've learned a lot over the past dozen or so years in that space. And a big part of your portfolio now is student housing. I know listeners are familiar with multifamily and different things, but maybe we don't talk a ton about student housing. And I know there's a lot of heads that are like you, that are. That are shaken like you should, Chris. Because I'm paying tuition at these schools.

Once you get to the age your kids turn 18.

Yeah.

You're going to find out about student housing real quick.

Yeah. Which is funny because I bought my first two townhouses in Blacksburg, Virginia, and I rented five of the six bedrooms out to students. So I actually got my start in student housing, if you really think about it.

And it's funny because you're in Blacksburg and have a property right away down the road. Radford.

Yeah.

University.

So, yes, I probably was in that. I may have even been in that property at some time or another during my. My time there. But.

So I'll tell you why I love student housing is a. It's a. It's a little bit more work as far as. There's a lot of more moving parts. You're dealing with college kids. But here's the beauty of it is mom and dad co. So, I mean, think about it. And I'm not saying that it's resilient from market cycles, but it kind is now it's not Covid resistant because when Covid happened, no one went to college. And so housing, our housing model got broke a minute. It was a hard. It's been a hard couple of years. We are now finally recovered.

So let's, let's hit on that real quick. Sorry to kind of, to kind of twist the knife a little bit. But, you know, so we all. Everybody in the multifamily space. So, you know, the, the. The restrictions with collecting rent and doing these things. How did that work in the, in the student housing space, Corey?

It was brutal. We went from 100 occupancy to 45.

Wow. Wow.

That's a death sentence, by the way. Right.

Yeah.

Now this is why I love real estate. We immediately got skinny as skinny. I mean, abnormally skinny. And when I say that, I'm talking about we stop or anything like no orders. Cut staff in half, almost to a third on some properties. Put a skeleton crew to get through because, you know, now on my bigger schools were bigger colleges.

Yeah.

Still had more tenants. It was more like 75, 80.

Okay.

But on your D2, your D2, smaller D2 schools, schools that have 8,000 students or so, those are where I saw my biggest hits. Like they just stopped going all together and it was just vacant, vacant, vacant. And it lasted for years. This year was great. This year we, we killed it. And my big schools they rebounded the year after. Right. Okay, it was, it was better. But other than that and what I did like. So I've learned that when there's blood in the streets is when you buy. So what are. During COVID I double down. I bought four more properties in student housing because you buy the paint and but do love about the student side is that mom, dad personally guarantee their 12 month leases even though school is usually only nine.

Right, right.

And then I think my properties keep me young. I love it is way more fast paced. And so my staff and my team and the touches, it's just a different animal. But it's so much fun. And the right properties fill up on their own. Like we have a property in East Carolina ecu. Right. North Carolina, Greenville. And it will fill up regardless of kind of what we do. And last year we got a 6% increase in rents to do anything. And we're probably going to get another 6% this year and we're not going to do anything besides raise the rents and say here's the new price and we'll still fill up. And so it is, it's, it's a beautiful business, but the only down. So that's the great things. The downside is, you know, kids tend to be a little more violent on your properties. Right?

Yeah. A little less respectful. Right.

So we, we have, we're very good at drywall repair.

Right.

Very drywall repair. I'm not saying that there's lots of holes. Most of the kids are respectful, but we've seen holes in walls. We've seen some people get a little, you know, they get up on the alcohol. So it's really about trying to control your parties. We don't want to be the party place.

Right, Right.

And mom and dad are usually trying to, you know, we have cameras everywhere. So big brothers always watch. And that's one of the things we really do. And then we try to like our recipe is to light these things up like Christmas trees. 75 of our students are women. And so you want to keep your property as safe as possible.

I've got to think that, that that's a testament to the quality of your property. Because I would assume that, um, if I was a parent of a daughter, I have two boys, but if I was a parent of a daughter, I would say, hey, I want to be in one of Corey's properties because they're well lit, they're safe, you know, Whereas if I had a boy, maybe it's not quite as as much of a today's show is sponsored by Money Insights and their investment optimizer strategy. In my book, I share how I use the same strategy starting over a decade ago to invest my money in two places at one time. This strategy has been used by the wealthiest for generations for estate planning, minimizing taxes, preserving wealth and increasing stability for their investments. Now you can do the same thing. In addition, you can build a plan to build an emergency fund, pay for college, fund a business plan for retirement, and ultimately optimize your total financial picture. To find out more information, check us out at the banking link at next level income.com concern.

You don't think about it. You don't think about it as much. Right. But like just know that that's a big piece of the recipe is like we, when we go buy one, we'll look at the lighting. We're like, you know, are they bright LEDs? You know, is it the right Kelvin. Right. Believe it or not, we look at Kelvin.

Yeah. And I know what that is.

Yeah. Because. And then we're looking for areas that are spooky and we say how do we put some light over there? Right. And because that's. And when we do things, right. So we've taken over properties that they have like in the breezeways they have incandescent lights. We put these really bright LEDs that spread up a very white light.

Yeah.

It goes from oh God, that's kind of scary to oh, I could come here at night. And then you start seeing and I mean, because some of these people, they're just to it, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And so you just want to make them feel as safe as possible. The other thing too is we're trying to, you know, and makes. If we put gates around stuff we do or we'll put like we try to restrict the ways and ins and outs of egress ingress and we'll put cameras at license plate level. Right. So, you know, try to do as much as we can to limit the shenanigans. Right. Because it's really not your tenants that come in, it's their boyfriends and try to screw things up for us.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. We see the same thing in the self storage space as technology has come in. You know, people, especially female renters, would prefer not to interact with some weirdo that's watching, you know, Netflix or something else on their, you know, laptop at the front desk. They can do everything via a kiosk or via an app. They can, they can get onto the property. There's a Gate, there's lots of lights, there's lots of cameras and security. And that makes people feel safe, right? It's, it's, it's natural to do that, even.

And even then, like, we, we work on even trying to get keyless system where we have, you know, they have a car to get in their door. It's kind of like trying to go to the hotel, you know, model and so, and access points within our, you know, the places where they can get into the gym to our common areas and things like that. So it really is way more technical than it used to be, but it's a beautiful business. And the great thing is, is they're not going. Now. Colleges overall are downsizing a little bit, right? Some of the smaller ones, the bigger schools, those seem to just keep getting bigger.

Yeah. Going to ask, I was going to ask you about that, Corey. So as you, you know, I'm always looking for things that are going to, like, disintermediate industry, right? It's like, all right, how are you going to come in and wipe out housing? You know, like, what technology is going to wipe out housing? I don't, it's hard for me to see that from a university perspective. You know, is, is tuition keeps rising. People are like, oh, your son's going to go to college? I'm like, well, my older son, he wants, my younger son wants to be an engineer. So I'm like, hey, he's probably going to go to college. My older son, he wants to play lacrosse, so hopefully he gets a scholarship. But he actually would really like to go into the military. But as students have more online options, as degrees have become more ubiquitous and possibly, you know, less valuable, right. Or even some employers are saying, well, you don't even need a degree anymore, which is kind of crazy. What are your thoughts on that with respect to the markets that you're in and how do you kind of guard against that?

So what we've learned from being now in it, so when we first started, we bought very smaller markets and managed those. You have to manage those very tight and very efficiently. And we can talk about efficiencies here in a bit, but that's something we've really worked on. But the, the. So we like bigger schools. We like 25,000 students. 20,000 to 25,000 students is a good school size and then closest to the college as possible, right? So because what's going to go away first? The, the properties that are farther away from campus, right. So, and then we're looking for some historical Trends we usually look at is the college going up or down. You know, if you look over a 10 year history, a trend, the bigger colleges just trend is real steady and, and go up sometimes they might have a down year, but it's not. Or if it's flat. So flat's okay. Our smaller colleges, what we've seen is a slow downward trend. The smaller colleges seem to keep getting smaller. It's been a really concern. So some of those assets we're now looking to exit when it's the right, make the right sense and we want to get out of those earlier than. And it's just about really trying to manage that a little bit. But on our bigger schools, I don't see for our five year horizon, not a whole lot's going to change. People are still going to go to school, not everyone's going to go to college. But the ones that do still need a place to stay.

Right.

And so you're just trying to make sure that you're not in oversaturated markets like College Station, even though that's a big school. Right. You've just got to make sure. So it's really about understanding what the supply and demand is, what what is the enrollment trends. And then you're looking for a deal. Right. So we're, we're looking at a deal right now in Savannah, Georgia or Statesboro, which is real close to Savannah. And it's a 20,000 kid stool. It's not D1 I don't believe, but it's, but it's a good large D2 school. So we, that. That there's value to play in that game. And then the only other difference I think from the downside of is you are still subject to things that could go on beyond your control. Like something happens terrible at the college or it gets a bad reputation. Right. Like I'm thinking of something that happened to Mizzou about four maybe it was like eight years, nine years ago in Missouri, Missouri State or whatever. They had somebody make some kind of claim or like I can't remember what it was. It was like Black Lives Matter. I can't remember what it was. But it was a big deal. And donors left the football. It was a big, big deal. And the next year new enrollment plummeted.

How about that?

Right?

Yeah. Interesting.

So your subjects are things you can't control.

Yeah. And that's probably a reason why you look for, you know, big D1 schools, big D2 schools. You see success in their football programs, you see enrollment skyrocket. Like we've seen here.

Everybody wants to be that part of that trend right now. And then, and then we sprinkle that with just regular old multifamily. So I think that's our, we're about 65, maybe 70% to the student in our, in our portfolio. We're looking to try to balance that back out. We'd like to be 50. 50. Right. Because I think the real risk of trying to be all in one one area. We like to have a little bit multiple options. We're even starting to look at some self storage as a another class that we see some opportunities in.

Yeah, no, I like that. And look, look, I love hearing the high level stuff Corey, but coming out of COVID you mentioned how you guys have kept turning the screws on efficiencies and operations which really, those are really the things that make a difference in these investments long term after you get into them. If you would share some of the lessons that you've learned with the audience and how your company has restructured or evolved so to speak here post Covid to really take advantage of some of these efficiency.

Yeah, yeah. Thanks Chris. So when we first started we were a third we, we would hire third party property manager all the time on all assets. And that's how most operators generally do it. Here's, but here's the problem is third party management is not aligned with any owner operators goals. And the reason for that is they're not compensated based on noi net operating income. They're based on collected rents top line. Right. So they could care less how they spend the money. They just want to make sure they collect all of it. Right. And so as we got into this and we, you know time and time again, what is your most valuable asset at any property? It's your people.

Yeah.

And so what we realize is we're actually in the people business. We're, we really, that's what we do. We sell a product called real estate but it's the people that make it work and run. And so the challenge with third party management companies is we were not in control of our staff, the people culture and the way we wanted things to run efficiently. And so this year 2023 we decided to take control of that. And so we vertically integrated by creating our own property management company. Now what we've through that is that you know, your people do make the difference. Right. When we start talking about noise, net operating income budgets, real budgets, oh, can I spend this? I don't know. What does the budget tell you? Right. And going and get, and then having flying off staff and getting everybody to what I call Kahuna 5, right. The, the Kahuna way. It's so important because it builds a teamwork, friendship, connection and that we're all doing it together. So what we found was with property management companies, third party property management companies, property was its own island and none of our properties were really connected. Even though we're all in student housing, no one was talking to each other. And so we were able to that gap through. When we took over, we brought, you know, we have used slack, we have zoom calls all the time, we have all our staff on it, right. And we're able to so much more efficient in just doing it one way for every property, right. Instead of trying to do it five different. Because a lot of times on bigger asset managers, you're going to have different property managers, different ways. This one's doing it this way, another one's doing it that way. And, and it's not coherent, it's not the same. And there's no cohesiveness, right. And that leads to a lot of inefficiencies, right. And then even supply chain, right now that we're under one umbrella, we can get our, our painting cheaper, our products cheaper. Trying to use the same, you know, vendors and the same supply everything. Like, here's our toilet. This here's, you know, like we start having codes for each thing. And then we say, and then really it's about kind of Six Sigma agencies just in time ordering, meaning we don't keep a lot of stuff on the shelves, right. You know, someone's going to go vacant. We go, you know, we know, we usually know 60, 90 days a property is going to vacate, right. Or they're going to non renew or we have to evict. Even if we're evicting. All right, let's go, let's get inside that unit. And then he comes up and says, okay, I need, you know, a toilet bar, you know, for the toilet vanity. I need this, I need that. And then do I have these products on the shelf? No, let's just order just what I need for these three units or two units or whatever it is. And you know, we have a 24 hour or 48 hour turn policy. We want to have something back on the market within two days.

Boom. Yeah, yeah.

And the only way to do that is to be way more proactive and getting into these units and even sometimes doing the repairs before they actually move out. And again, efficiencies like that, getting your Having and. And this is the biggest killer in multifamily. This is a big killer. Is not rent ready product.

Yep.

And having a property. Yes. Not turned.

Yeah.

It'll kill your business model.

Yeah. No, I love that Bruce. I've been wanting to say that the whole time. Corey. Yeah. So Corey, it's been, it's been a fun conversation. We could, I know we could continue on and we'll have to have you back on to talk about some different stuff but love for you to share with the audience how they can get. I know you got a book out. You got a great podcast and you know there's ways that listeners can learn a little bit about your. Yeah.

I would love just to give your audience a gift. We talked about it earlier but copy your way to success. I wrote.

Oh awesome.

Called copying and if you guys will just text the word book to 480-500-1127 so text the word book 40-511-27. My team will send you this book for free. And we just asked you to read a couple chapters and see and learn our story because it's really my rags to riches story from you know, having that moment in Bruce to really the whole success and there's lots of clues and, and nuggets to, to what it looked like and, and how we did it.

I love that. So just one more time for the audience. Textbook.

Yep.

To 480-500-1127. Is that right?

That's it? Yep, that's it.

All right. We got that here in the show notes along with Kahunu investments.com if you want to get a hold of Corey, check out the background on his company or learn more about his investments. Corey, thank you so much for sharing your story and your record drags to riches in true life with the audience.

Thanks, Chris.

Hey Chris, here again. I hope you found this episode valuable. Now I have one more thing to give to you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also please like share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on Apple podcasts.