Ep 189: Make Bank (without the Bank!) with Jim Oliver

It's really closer to 1/10 of 1% of all policies pay a death benefit, but less than 1% ever pay anything term. Okay, so, so it's, it's like, you know, it's, it's your money away there. But here's the thing. When you buy term insurance, are you betting with the company or against them?

Welcome to the Next Level Income show, where it's our goal to take your income, your investments and your life to the next level. I'm your host, Chris Larson. If you haven't yet, get a copy of our book for free at our website, nextlevelincome.com. that's www.nextlevelincome.com. just click on the book link and I'll even send you a copy if you put your address in. On today's show, we have Jim Oliver. Jim is the world's foremost authority on the infinite banking concept, otherwise known as ibc. He is a financial freedom and abundance advocate as well as a coach, and has dedicated his career to breaking the financial shackles that bind people and businesses to unnecessary taxes and interest expense. Jim spent 12 years under the tutelage of the late R. Nelson Nash, the pioneer of ibc, and now spreads the message through his firm Create Tailwind, his podcast, Breakaway wealth, which I've been on, and speaking engagements across the United States. Jim, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Yeah, I'm excited to have you. We almost, we're going to run out of time because we got chatting before the show and we're talking about all things health. And, you know, we have a lot of different stuff in common from the cars we drive to, you know, to some of the health things we do. And, you know, Jim, we're going to talk, as I mentioned in the, in the intro, about, you know, this concept called infinite banking. I'd like to hear a little bit about your background, but what really, what really hits me is that people that are involved in the infinite banking concept, I think they, they think a different way, they think a little bit differently. And to give the audience an idea of how you think, you know, share a little bit about your background and you know, how you met Nelson Nash and how you ended up getting into this space.

Yeah, absolutely, Chris. You know, from when I was little, I was fascinated with money. And I was fascinated with money because I grew up without any money. And I grew up where I was standing in line for government cheese, was homeless at one point in time. And so I grew up in the inner City of Los Angeles.

I thought that was a joke. You actually stood in line for government cheese. That's.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's. And what we would do because most people on entitlements are trying to figure out a way to the system. We were trying to figure out how to get more government cheese, you know, so. But, but it made me like, I look around in Los Angeles and if you, if you know Los Angeles or the, for the people that live there, you could be in a complete, you know, poverty area and you could drive a few miles one way or the other. And you are in some of the richest zip codes in the world. And it's frustrating to say, well, how do I get from here to there? So I was fascinated with money. I went to school, but I love to learn. And I got out of school and went to work in a financial planning firm. I thought it was amazing because every firm that I interviewed with offered me a job because it's 100% commission, which.

Means just one more body.

Yeah, just one more body. Hey, can you do it or can't you do it? Hey, start calling out of the phone book for the younger people. We used to have a book. No, I'm just kidding.

And all joking aside, I know there's some listeners that are like, what? Yeah, there's a phone book. That's the second time I've said that today, too. I was joking about a phone book or a roll. Yeah, if the phone book is next to your Rolodex, right?

Yeah, next to the Rolodex. So anyway, I got into the financial services and it was like, okay, that's how you build wealth. And this is how you spend money, is you, you teach people and you show people how to take their money, put it in Wall Street. And then, you know, if, if the market does this and inflation does this and their income does this, then you'll be great. And at 60 or 65, or if you do it really well at 55, you turn that off. And then you hope that you don't run out of money. Right. And, and I'm going to give you this leather bound, beautiful thing. It's only going to cost five or ten grand minimum. And then I'm going to charge you a fee on top of that too, you know, to manage your money. But that's just for my time to put together this little plan that's 100 pages and three of them are specific to you and 97 of them are generic. But that's all I knew And I thought, okay, the way that it works. And I ended up managing $700 million. I was charging 1%. So I thought, well, I'm doing pretty good, right? I mean, I had expense and things, but I thought, something seems wrong. And then I got this report and it said for this period of time, my clients got 9.38% on their money. I thought, wait a minute, I've got money in that account. And they didn't grow 9.3%. My balance didn't. My keger, my compound annual growth rate. So I took out expenses, I took out taxes, I took out my fee, everything else. And guess what the rate, real rate of return was 4%.

I was going to say 4 to 5%. Yeah, yeah.

So 4% when you're doing math and projections, that's a great word, projection is, makes the projections not work. So all of my clients, not of my clients, all of my clients, it wasn't going to work. So I thought, well, wait a minute, what do people that. I mean, I'm managing $700 million worth of assets. These people are wealthy people. What did they do to build their wealth, right? Guess what? It came down to only two things. Real estate and businesses. And if you invest in real estate, you are in the real estate business, right?

So it's business, all business, all business.

So I thought, well, wait a minute, I'm not helping these. That's I should be able to do that. And then, just as things would happen, a friend of mine said, hey, you're going to be in Houston. You ought to go see Nelson Nash. He's doing a 10 hour seminar right after your meeting's over.

What year was this?

That would have been like 2003 or five somewhere in there. Yeah, 2003. Anyway, excuse me. So I went and saw Nelson and here, this, you know, very polite Southern gentleman with a, you know, thick Birmingham accent and you know, like in thought, I'm just waiting for the pitch, right? I'm waiting. What's this guy selling? I'm just waiting and waiting and waiting. Five hours in thought. This guy's either a shyster or he's brilliant. I really didn't know Chris which one he was. And I got to the end of the seminar, I still didn't know. I asked him at least an hour, maybe two hours worth of questions. I'm really writing down questions. I learned that a long time ago. I wrote down, write down every question I want to ask an author or speaker. So I asked him all these questions. He was so gracious. He Answered all the questions. And then he finally said, hey, Jim, I'm doing this in two weeks. Because you're in the financial services field. Your paradigm is in more cement than most people, and so why don't you come back to the next one? And I said, okay, I'll be back in two weeks. I came back in two weeks.

Wow.

Again, about halfway through the meeting, I'm sitting there, I'm writing, you know, copious notes, and I. And I say, oh, my gosh. I got it. It hit me, Chris, like a ton of bricks.

Yeah.

And what it came down to is that we're solving one big problem that all of us have. We finance every single thing that we buy. We either pay interest or we give up interest. We could earn somewhere else. There are no exceptions. When that hit me, then I thought, well, wait a minute. This isn't just a way to sell life insurance. Which is what I thought. Hey, this. Well, I understand what this guy's doing. He's showing people how to sell big life insurance.

Yeah. And that's the. That's what you see online. If you look up, like, what's Is this scam? Most. You know, you don't see it's a scam. You just see, like, oh, they're just trying to sell you more life insurance.

Yeah. But it's not. The thing is, is that, you know, Chris, when you think about how a bank works, and this is hard without drawing out this visual, and on my community, I have all this drawn out, direct people to that. But if you think of a bank, there's only three players in the play. At the bank that really matter. You have that depositor, you have the owner of the bank, and then you have the borrower. Okay. So you go down, deposit money at the bank. And let me just ask you, when you deposit, is that an asset or a liability to the bank?

It's an asset.

That's what everybody says. But it's a liability because they haven't done anything with it yet. So when you go down and deposit it, it's a liability because they got to give you your money back anytime you want it.

Good point.

With interest. A little bit of interest. But they make it an asset.

Yeah.

They loan it out to a borrower.

Yep.

So if we're sitting in a. And I used to own part of a bank in South Dakota. If you. If we're sitting in a board meeting for the bank, we're talking about our loan portfolio because the loan is the asset. So again, as consumers, we're taught A deposit is an asset and a loan is a liability. But not for the bank. It's. Right. Yeah, it's the opposite because the bank knows the borrower is going to pay the owner of the bank interest and then the owner of the bank is going to pay the depositor as little as possible.

Yep.

Okay, so let me give you some numbers to make, help the audience visualize this. And these numbers are from 2016. Chris and I look, especially young guys, they say, well, Jim, what are the updated numbers? And I said, well, listen, you're 25. You're going to be on this earth for another 75 years. Tell me what year you want me to plug in and I'll. Over the last 75 years, I'll plug it in. Because I'm just using 2016 because that was the first time I did. So I got a Bauer financial report for bank of America and it said it had whatever amount of interest bearing accounts, and then it had interest, expense. So it had interest income, interest, expense. So what it said was in 2016, bank of America would pay 0.2% on your deposit. Okay, so that means that if you deposited $10,000, they're going to pay you 20 bucks over the next year in interest. They're going to loan it out at an average of 5.2%. Now, again, our consumer brains, what we've been told, which is all lies about money, it says, well, Jim, that's only 5% more than they're paying me. That's not a big deal. But that's not how this works, Chris. Right. You have your cost, which is 0.2%, and you have your profit, which is 5.2%. So they're paying $20. They're earning $520. $20 goes into 520, 26 times, which means the bank has a 2600% profit margin with your money. So they're not, they're making 26 times you're making with your money.

Yep.

Does it get worse? It does. So in the banking world, it's like a pool of money. It's a pool of water. There's only one pool of water in the world. Right. There's only one banking system.

This is where. Yeah, this is where Nelson talks about it. You're like, oh, yeah, it's one, it's all, it's all water's. It's. Yeah, one pool of water. It's all connected.

Yeah. But we don't think of it like that. We think of Lake Michigan as Lake Michigan. And the Amazon is The Amazon and the water. That's not how it works. That's why bank of America and Chase and your local bank, they're all interconnected. And if you go, well, no, my bank. No, it's not works. You've heard money follows the sun. A bank in New York closes, lends its money to a bank in Chicago, they close, lends money to a bank in Denver, Louisiana and around the world. Love that. Right. Overnight lending rates. Right. So which means if you have money deposited at one bank, borrowed from another bank, they're making 2600% more than you with your money from you. Okay, Problem. If you know what's happening, you'll know what to do. That's the problem. Infinite banking is part of the solution. Now, when we do infinite bank, we're solving that one problem. We finance every single thing that we buy. So we're, we're recapturing interest, we're recapturing lost opportunity cost, and we're using other people's money. This is really the key thing and this is where it is like IBC on steroids. We're buying cash flowing assets, Assets, not instruments. And we're using the insurance company's money.

Yep. Okay, so we're going to come back to that.

Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry, I will rattle on. Chris, you must interrupt me, because I will just keep going.

I love it. So, all right, you met, you met Nelson. He walked through the IBC concept. And I think just to, just to kind of recap this section of the conversation, we went over how the banking system works, and it's actually, it's actually even more. It's actually, like you said, it's worse than that because then there's that they can lend out more than they actually have in deposits and so on and so forth.

Fractional reserve bank.

Yeah, all this stuff. So, but even, even the way you said it, you know, most people don't understand that. And that's what, you know, it's like you mentioned that your investors or your clients that you were working with, they were investing their money, they were getting nine and a half, 10% return, which is. That's what. You hear this all the time. Oh, there's a 10% average return in the stock market.

Average. Yeah.

But you said something else, Jim. I know it came up when I was on your podcast. You don't get the average. You get the compounded annual growth rate. The CAGR that you brought up and what we mentioned was, hey, if you have a, if, if you invest a hundred dollars and it goes up a hundred percent one year, you have two dollars. If it goes down 50% the next year, you're back to a dollar. But 100 minus 50 is 50 divided by two years. Your average return is 25%. Your compounded annual growth rate is 0%. And so I think a lot of investors don't understand that. And then the other thing they don't understand is that if you're getting an 8% rate of return or a 10% rate of return, but you're paying, say you're making 10%, but you're paying 2% in fees, you're not giving up 2%, you're giving up 20% of your return. And when you compound that, it's a massive difference. Massive difference. And just that 1% rate can add up to the average investor over a million dollars in their lifetime. So I think that's one of the fundamental things I wanted to highlight the second piece, IBC Infinite Banking for those, or the infinite banking concept. Nelson Nash came up with it, which I don't think we and I have. Becoming your own banker right here. It's one of my favorite books in the thing. How does this work for the average person? So we're talking about a concept. So you basically become the bank. You set this up so you can recapture interest and do these things. And I love it. I still have some of my investors that call me. I had one friend from college and I explained to him, and he's super smart. He's got an mba. Super smart guy. He's like, yeah, it doesn't make sense. Two months later, he calls me back, jim, he goes, chris, I gotta talk to you. Like, text me. I was like, what's up? He goes, I got it. I figured it out. It hit me. It hit me like a ton of bricks, Chris. What? How? Like, so let's go into that next phase. Like, why. Why do people figure out, like, wait a minute, this is. We're talking about massive amounts of money here in our lives.

Yeah. What happens is people hear life insurance and it shuts them down. Their brain says, life insurance is this. And. And it's like, what? Hold on a second. It's. It's co generation, as Nelson says in his book. It's like a paper. A paper mill next to a lumberyard. Right. I mean, you need. I mean, it's. They need each other to operate in the reason that you. You have to look at the insurance contract. When I draw this out, Chris, I draw it out like a ledger. One side of the ledger. Is your money pool. The other side of the ledger is what you do with the money. Okay, so normally you would have money sitting in your checking account. And then I decide, hey, I want to go buy an RV park, a mobile home park, whatever. So I'm going to take that money out of account and, and I have that money in that account or I have that asset right now. It's nothing wrong with that.

I save up and I take that money and I, I buy a park. And now I don't have the money anymore, but I have, you know, have.

But I have the park. Right? And as long as the park makes money and everything, that's great. But what if because I have this money in this account, I can take somebody else's money without application, without approval, I can take an interest only loan from them up to all of the money that I have in the account and then I can go buy the RV park. And as that RV park cash flows or the mobile home part, I flow the money back into that money pool and anytime I want, I can take another loan. They can't deny me, they can say no. Okay, so that's kind of how the insurance contract works because. And first of all, we design the insurance policy the way that a bank designs boli, which is bank owned life insurance or a corporation designs coli corporate owned life insurance. Well, would banks and corporations own life insurance? Because they know what we now know with infinite banking. Excuse me. And they. Long term, we have to think long term. So we established this insurance policy with a mutual insurance company. Why a mutual insurance company? Because the policy owners own the insurance company. They have a contractual right to take an interest only loan up to 100% of their cash value and the insurance company has to give them their money. So now I have OPM use and control of that.

And that's an excellent point and it's something that I learned when I first started investing where Vanguard was a mutually owned company. So you go invest and basically it's like a nonprofit. So I think. So if you're listening, what it means is that you as a policyholder in one of these life insurance companies, instead of a company that's owned by stockholders, any excess profits, they're also going to flow back to the policyholders. So not only do you have this benefit that Jim's talking about, but you also basically get the excess profit and I'll let you kind of share how that's returned to policyholders.

Yeah, and the cool thing is that dividend, right? That's, that's A dividend is a return of premium inside the life insurance contract, which means taxable, non taxable. And so once your money is in that insurance contract, it's never taxed again, the death benefit. Because you know what, Chris? We'll take care of ourselves. But one of these days we're going to graduate from this earth and when we do, our heirs are going to get a tax free death benefit. Okay? Now taxes, if you could erase taxes. This is why people move to Puerto Rico. Right? Is the big deal. It's a big deal.

Yeah.

And when I talk to people in Puerto Rico, they love this because they say, wait a minute, that means I might not have to stay in Puerto Rico forever if I could get all my money in one of these policies.

Yeah, exactly.

Not that there's anything wrong with staying in Puerto Rico forever. So, Chris, let's talk about this loan because this is how we have to think about it again. You know, simplicity is elusive. This is simple, but it's not easy. And what you said about your friend is exactly right. This is not taught. It's caught. So one of the things that we do in our community is we just have courses and videos and. Because I know exactly what one thing is going to make it click for you. But think about this loan for a second. If I would loan you $100 million today, Chris.

Yep.

And your only obligation was you got to pay me $5 million of interest one year from today, would you take, would you take the money?

Yes, absolutely.

Right. Okay, so let's turn it around for a second. Let's say you made me the same offer. And you know, Chris, if you're open to that, we can talk afterwards and we can, I can get paperwork, everything sent over to you, but I'm going.

To be, I'm going to come up a little. You might have to hack, hack a zero or two off that gym, but.

Yeah, well, that's okay. I'm going to start with the aggregate the, the A hundred million. But so I'm going to take your, here's what I'm going to do with it and I'm going to do something. I know you're going to do the same thing, but I'm just going to, instead of ask you what to do with it, I'll just say like, let's reverse it. So you're going to loan me 100 million. I'm going to take your 100 million and I'm going to go to the seller or the bank if I to. And I'm going to get 80% loan to value average. Right. If I do create a financing the seller, I'm going to probably get better than 80%. And if I have to use the, I might only get 70. At that kind of money, I think I could get 80. But let's just, just an example. So when I do real estate, I want to get at least 20. If I'm going to be active in it, I'm going to go find it, I'm going to go do everything. I want to get at least 25% cash on cash return. Okay. But some people out, I know your experienced guys are going to say, Well, I get 40, I get, I'm just using a number, it doesn't really matter. So I take your 100 million, I'm going to make 25 million. I call you in a year, I say, hey, let's go for a bike ride. Which I'm not going to be able to keep up with you, but we're.

Going to have dinner after down there in Florida. Jim, you'll be fine.

I get past a lot, Chris, but. So I'm going to write you a check for 5 million bucks, the interest.

That I owe you.

And you say, hey, Jim, you want to pay any principal on this? And I go, nope, see you next year. Because if I pay principal, you might not let me have it back, right? Yeah, but I can pay back principal inside the insurance contract all day long. But why would I ever change the arrangement? I'm netting 20, I'm paying you 5. I really don't care that I'm paying. I could pay you 7 as long as I was netting 20 years. Right. I'm not paying you 5. My tenants are. Right, right. So I'm just making $20 million on the spread. That's the power of infinite banking.

Yep.

Now all these people, I want to keep this basic, but I want to, I want, I want you to see the, the infinite in the message because there's so many people that are way better marketers than me. Right. They're great marketers and they're on YouTube and they're on the, on different social media platforms and they're talking about, you know, buying your cars, your vacations, paying off student debt, all that stuff with infinite banking. And you can do all of it. Sure.

But where it really gets patty cake. Yeah, yeah.

Where, where, where you get serious and you're leveraging and you're, and, and you're, and you're buying assets that are going up in value instead of instruments that are going down in value with, with monetary debasement. Now we're getting somewhere. Now we're playing on the right side of the game, meaning the winning side of the game, the way the wealthy play the game. Now we're doing it.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And, you know, I think there's a couple questions that come. Come to mind.

Absolutely.

I want to, I want to, I want to kind of head these off for listeners. So, number one, you know, the average return of the stock market is say, 10%. But what, what is the, do you, what's the average number that, that an investor typically gets out of the stock market? Like, actually gets invest with the broker and you know, like what.

Do you really want to know the number?

Yeah. After fees and like, you know, selling at the right and wrong times, all that stuff. What's, what's probably the real number that an average investor gets?

I think it's really close to zero, unfortunately.

It's, I would, I would say I'll give them a little bit more credit, but it's definitely low single digits. I'd say it's less than 5%. But, you know, and that's the thing, the thing I hear with this, Jim, is people like, well, you know, I can, I can do better than investing in one of these policies. But, and I want to address that too, that verbiage. But what with, you know, my policies, I have a guaranteed rate of 4%. When you add the dividends in, you're looking at more like 5 or sometimes even closer to 6% in these policies. And that's tax free. So I think, you know, that's one thing that I think now most of our listeners are more sophisticated and they're getting better returns than that. But I also, I really don't like to call this an investment. I like to call it a tool. Yeah. Because we're setting up a tool that can be used. And then the other thing that I hear is that I really, this really bothers me. But what do you say when investors say, well, I just have term insurance, I don't need that much life insurance in these types of policies. Today's show is sponsored by Money Insights and their investment optimizer strategy. In my book, I share how I use the same strategy starting over a decade ago to invest my money in two places at one time. This strategy has been used by the wealthiest for generations for estate planning, minimizing taxes, preserving wealth and increasing stability for their investments. Now you can do the same thing. In addition, you can build a plan to build an emergency Fund, pay for college, fund a business plan for retirement and ultimately optimize your total financial picture. To find out more information, check us out at the banking link@nextlevelincome.com.

Yeah, I say, well you know what, term insurance is for temporary need. And so you have to understand term insurance. There's only one benefit in term insurance. If I put a million dollars in that policy, I have zero cash value. I only have death benefit I have to die for. To get anything out of that policy in less than. It's really closer to 1/10 of 1% of all policies pay a death benefit, but less than 1% ever pay anything term. Okay, so, so it's, it's like, you know, it's, it's throwing your money away there. But here's the thing. When you buy term insurance, are you betting with the insurance company or against them?

You're not with them. You're on the other side, not with them. You're see, that's right.

You think you might die. They, they know you won't actually, they know you won't. Not just you, but a hundred thousand use.

Yeah, right. Yep. So law large.

They're like, and by the way, when you're 35 years old, you can get a 30 year term policy all day long. It's not very expensive. Peanuts by getting a 30 year policy when you're 58.

Yeah, not going to happen.

Maybe they'll give you 10 years.

Yeah, I had a, I had a discussion with an investor about a year ago and he's like, Chris, you know, we looked at this, we ran through, you know, this concept and I talked, I talked with this about my, with my investor club and we all, we all agreed that basically we can get, you know, we can do better with our money. And I said, well, first off, look, my mom, we're about to have our kind of, we're recording this a little bit ahead of schedule. This will be coming out. But my, we always have an annual eggnog party to honor my mother who passed away in December. And I'll never forget, after she died I talked to my, my stepfather and there was some things she wanted to do for my boys but they really didn't have the money to do it. And I was like, well, what about life insurance? And this is what inspired me to go back and get relicensed. He said, you know, he said to me, jim, he goes, we decided it was too expensive to get life insurance. Now one thing is, I've never heard anybody that's had a loved One die or had a car accident or their house burned down or have some sort of issue ever say, wow, you know what? I just had too much insurance when that happened. I've never heard that, never heard somebody say that. But I have heard people say as they get older that insurance costs too much. And I think that's, that's a big, you know, that's something that people need to think about. The other thing is when this investor told me this and I said, so what? What did you guys decide? Like, well, most of us said, we have enough money. We won't need insurance when we get to be that age. And I got a little annoyed. And I said, you know what? I said, that's very small thinking. And I said, that's very selfish thinking because you could leave a lot to your heirs. You could set up your heirs. I said, let me ask you something else. I said, you probably have some people in the group worth that are millionaires. He goes, yeah, yeah. I said, how many are really wealthy? How many are worth eight figures or more? He goes, nobody. I said, you need to get yourself a different mastermind group that you're part of to talk about investing. You're not thinking like rich people. You guys are thinking like poor people.

Yeah, I mean, there's, I mean, you know, this and Robert Kiyosaki, I think the said it, but the difference between poor people and wealthy people is which way their money flows. Poor people, they're trying to, they're listening to Dave Ramsey and trying to slow down the flow of their money away from them. Wealthy people are always trying to figure out how to get money to flow to them.

That's right.

And, and so when you look at infinite banking, you know, Chris, it's not the rate of return inside the insurance contract. Right. It's the leveraging inside the insurance contract in your policy when you're talking about grows every single day. Guaranteed, every year.

Guaranteed. That's right.

Guaranteed. The worst case scenario after 10 years is you have about the same amount that you put in it. The worst case scenario. Now if I go put that money in an investment, what's my worst case scenario? I. All of my money.

Yeah.

Okay, so. But now I don't really care what the rate of return is inside the insurance contract because I access to somebody else's money, I'm going to go like, let's say that it was 4% and somebody says I could get a net 8% in the market, which I don't think you can. But let's just say it was, can I take the insurance company's money and make more than 4% with their money? Absolutely. Right now.

Absolutely.

That I said 25% cash on cash. And I know what you do. And I'm going to, I'm going to, I know that the rate of return that you are paying and that your people get when you add it all in. I'm not saying it, I mean, I don't know what it is actually, but I guarantee you it's better than what the stock market is. I guarantee, I shouldn't say, some compliance person out there is going to say I'm not guaranteeing it, but it is better.

I'm not. All right, let me. I'm not guaranteeing that.

Jim said, sorry, that word, guaranteed. I had my securities license. You can tell that.

That's right. I can tell you that. I, But I do love it because that is the one thing I, when I do talk about something, we can talk about guaranteed rates and life insurance and that's what's great. So I think again, but I think the concept is, and you know, I feel like we got to, we got to have you back on and continue down this road, but this is a tool and I want you to share how people can learn more about this tool. We have, we have resources on our website as well. But this is a tool that you can not only enhance the returns that you get on your portfolio, but you also get. I love how you said this. You didn't call it a policy, you called it a contract. These are private contracts. They're very beneficial if you want, if you value privacy or have other liabilities out there. And when you really start to blend these in with, you know, flowing into a trust and setting up, you know, generational wealth through like a waterfall structure where your children or grandchildren can purchase insurance with this, then you realize how a lot of people out there are talking about like the Rothschilds may be worth like trillions of dollars because nobody really knows what is held in these contracts outside of the insurance company and the policyholder. Right, that's right.

It's, it's private. Right, but. And it's kind of like the, the benefit. Even though Bitcoin isn't private, but it's, it's anonymous. Right. I mean, unless you could figure out somebody's, you know, whatever number, you know, so. But the thing is, is that it's like a pre engineered trust, the life insurance, because even your children aren't going to know. There's no reading of the will of the insurance Contract, you get a check. And unless they say, hey, what was your check? They don't know or any other error, they get a check. But the cash value and what you said is exactly right. We break it down. Generation one, generation two, generation three and beyond. I own all the policies on my kids, on my grandkids, on my business partners, everything else. When I graduate from this world, then somebody else will own them, which means they get the cash. But the policies that were on me, they bingo. They get a bingo. They get a tax free death benefit. So if I had any loans on these other policies, they could use the benefit to pay back the loans if they want. They're in control. But here's one thing to think about. When you think rates of return, I just want to return to that for just one minute. Let's say year 10. And these are round, loose numbers. Okay. But it's very to this when I put a dollar in the insurance contract. So like if I put 100 grand in there, I get that right then and there. I get $150,000 to go put into my investments. Okay, Right.

Say that again.

So when I put in 100 grand, the growth on my policy for that.

Gotcha.

Okay. So is going to be 150 grand. It's about 150%. Now remember, I've got, I'm using all this other money and it's all in motion. Somebody would say, yeah, well that's because you've got 10 years of premium sitting there and growing at 4 or 5%. But that's. I'm not letting it sit there.

Right, exactly right.

Motion is a law of God. Money has to flow or it dies. I'm letting it sit there. I'm putting it in motion. I'm out there buying mobile home parks, I'm doing deals. I don't care if you're active, passive. That's a whole nother discussion. But I have a money pool that when an opportunity comes along and I can put in 100,000 and I could take 150 and I can go put it in a project that Chris is doing. I win.

That's right.

I win. I love it. Because now, if we have time, I want to give you one example of how I used it to buy a business and what my.

Yeah, let's do that. And then, Jim, I'd love for you to share the with the audience a little bit about your book and your website and some of the resources you have.

Absolutely. So I'll make this quick. So in 2017, I bought this Electronics refurbishment business. I bought it from a bigger company and it didn't fit really into their model. And they just got a $50 million VC injection. And the VC was like, why do you have this little refurbishment company? They wanted 3.3 million for it. I said, okay, I'll give you the 3.3, but I'm going to do it on earn out basis. And I wanted to put in there this clause because you know how VCs work. If you sell this bigger company within five years, I don't owe you anything. Okay? So. And I said, I don't want to put any money down. Now. This is back to creative financing, right?

Yeah.

Well, it came back and said, we got to have something. We want a million dollars. I said, no, I'll give you $75,000. That's the last offer. They took it. So I gave them 75 grand. I didn't have to start payments for two years on the 20% increase on the earn out.

Right.

When I got into the warehouse, I found out that we had all of these sound bars that they said were worthless because they were too old. We started selling them on ebay and Amazon. We made 400 grand before the end of the year. Selling $12. Yeah. We had nothing in them. Right, right.

So, yeah.

All right, so remember I bought the company for $75,000 out of pocket. I made 400 grand, paid back the $75,000, and I say, what was my rate of return? Right? And people say, well, you're 75. I said, no, no, no, it wasn't my 75,000. It was the insurance company. 75,000?

Yeah.

It cost me $3,700 of interest.

Right.

That's it.

Yeah.

Okay, so, but also, I never had to pay another dime for that business. It makes seven figures now. Wow. And here's the thing. So I say all that and then I. Chris, how much did my. What was my rate of return inside my insurance policy during that time? And guess what the answer is? Who cares? I mean, if it didn't grow at all, do I care? No.

Right?

I do not care. I do not care. Okay, so that's that. I tried to make that story quick. I love it made sense.

I love that it does make sense. And I have a similar story when we bought our car wash here in town. And yeah, it's, it's again, I think that's the thing. You know, people can utilize this as a tool, but even if you don't, you could set it up almost like a private pension fund. And those Sorts of things. Tell us quickly about your book, Jim. And then your website, create tailwind.com and if people want to learn more about you and your business.

Absolutely. So here's my book. Make bank without the Bank. Like, I, I grew up in the inner city. We had all these, you know, you, wherever you grew up, you had slangs for money. One of ours was make bank. So I, I stayed. Right. And. And it's make bank without the bank.

And I like that.

It tells my story of being in poverty and what I. Money, what I thought I was doing the right thing and all the noise that I encountered trying to find the right signal until I met Nelson and understood this. And, and then, and the reason I tell that in the first few chapters is because I want you to know that if I can do it, you can do it. I did not have anybody give me $1 down there, so. And then I go through simple principles of really the new rules of money and what you have to learn. It's 98 pages and the audible is I is the chapter. And then there's a little interview afterwards. Right. So it's, it's. It's more like podcast form like this.

Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah.

And so, you know, and if, if, if anybody. And then community is community.create tailwind.com if anybody. Because all I want is to educate people on this and you to come to one conclusion. Is this for me or it's not for me? So to do that. Chris, with your permission, I'd like to make an offer.

Absolutely.

Somebody goes to my community and they join the community and they take one course and you know, Chris, I'm into the honor system. Okay. You tell me you took the course. That's all you got to do is say, I took a course. Send me your best on the community. You can direct message me your best mailing address, and I'll send you either my book for free. Or. Or Nelson Nash's Become Banker Unlocking the Infinite Banking Concept for free. No shipping, nothing. Okay. And. And you never have to talk to me again. So there's no. Okay. So I just, I think better their lives if they read. If they take a course and they read those two books and the.

Yeah.

So anyway, that's. That's the offer to. To Chris's. Because, Chris, because I. You and I have just hit it off and I wanted to make your. Your audience offer that hopefully they can't refuse.

I love it. And Jim, man, I wish we could. We could share a little bit more about the audience with some of your things. But I know my listeners know how into health I am. We have our doc My Doctor on my personal doctor on every 3, 4, 5, 6 months to share different tips with the audience. You know, I'd like to wrap up with. Look, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, you think you do not think like normal people. You know, you think like somebody that's exceptional. And I know, Jim, we've talked about riding, we're talking about the M5s. And you know, the, the way what I, what I love is within the infinite banking community, the way that people think not just about money, but about life in general. It's not just the banking concept that's infinite. It's their attitude that's infinite. And it's a real abundance mindset. And Jim, I know you share that. I know we share that together, and I thank you for sharing that with our audience today.

Absolutely, Chris. Thank you. And, you know, I always think it comes down to freedom. And, you know, when you're out on your bike.

Yeah.

Is, you know, you're free. And it's a moving meditation for me, and there's nothing I can do in the world that makes me feel better than when I get back. But also medically, like, I'm sure your doctor isn't just fixing things that are broken. That is preventative. And, and, you know, that's freedom.

That's free.

And Chris, we're financial slaves, but we're also medical slaves. We're information slaves. And you can think that you're free, which you can be free, but it takes work. And, you know, I see these old people down here. You know, I'm 58, so I call old people. They're really old. Chris, is, is the medical world down here will treat you like you're. You're cattle.

Yeah.

And you, you got to take care of your health and do all the right things and all that information's out there. And great doctors, like, I'm sure yours, your doctor, they want to help you be healthier.

That's right. Awesome. Well, we're trying to help you do both things with your health and with your money that are going to help you become more free. Jim, thank you so much.

Thank you, Chris. Thanks for having me.

Hey, Chris, here again. I hope you found this episode valuable. Now, I have one more thing to gift you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also, please like share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on Apple Podcasts.