Ep 240: How The Wealthy Thrive In Downturns with Patrick Grimes

The longer you wait to invest, the harder of a journey it's going to be for you. And there's nobody that's going to tell you that.

Welcome to the Next Level Income show, where it's our goal to take your income, your investments and your life to the next level. I'm your host, Chris Larson. If you haven't yet, get a copy of our book for free at our website, nextlevelincome.com. that's www.nextlevelincome.com. just click on the book link and I'll even send you a copy if you put your address in. Patrick, welcome to the show.

Glad to be here, Chris. Really enjoyed working with you so far. Looking forward to this discussion.

Yeah, absolutely. We, we got introduced here just in the past couple weeks and I gotta tell you, I'm a little jealous. I've got like five layers on. It's 20 degrees here in Asheville. And I know you just, you just came in from a nice run on the beach there in, in Hawaii, but one of the things that really intrigued me, Patrick, when we were talking, it was, it was, it was almost like hearing myself on the other end, maybe a little smarter version of myself. But you got an engineering degree, you have a finance degree. You're now in the alternative investing space. And we're going to talk about how our audience, how, if you're listening today, how you can take advantage of some of the lessons that Patrick and I have learned and really kind of bulletproof your portfolio as we go into hopefully what's a great period here in the US with the new administration. There's a lot of optimism coming in. But before we get to that, Patrick, share a little bit about your background before you ended up here today.

Sure. So I trained as an engineer, mechanical engineer. I did machine design, automation and robotics in college. I've, I've since got an MBA and a master's in engineering, but not a finance degree. Just to clear that out.

I'm sorry. Well, thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But what I did was enough school for me. Right.

So I'm, I hear that. Yeah.

Yeah. I got involved in investing early on because the first automation firm I worked for, I was eager to figure out what I was going to do with, with my money. I was, I didn't, wasn't raised at home. I was raised at home of educators. There wasn't, that was straight out of the purple book. Rich dad, poor dad. I didn't, I didn't know anything about investing. So I kind of Sought that from up and the founder of the company that I worked for at the time said, hey, don't go invest in these other stocks. Like I was looking at these startups and all that. So look, you, you've got your retirement account in the stock market, go put it somewhere else. And his only regret was not investing more into real estate sooner. And that was fascinating to me because this is a tightened, successful high tech machine design firm. You know, company founder for like at this point it was already 25, 30 years and I, and he said made his money in high tech, but he invested it into alternatives. And I was just like, that's incredible. So that was my advice. Not everybody gets that early on. No, felt a bit fortunate. However, I didn't do it right. I went heavy in. I invested into a pre development which speculated to double, triple my money. It looked like a great deal. They had done very well in the last five or six projects. Turns out we were at the tippity top of the market and we were headed for a bus because this was 2007 and 8 and I lost everything in 10.

Oh man. Well, and you know, there's, there's a couple lessons there. You know, I always like to say real estate's a get rich, slow game. You know, it's not as exciting as being in that, you know, high tech, you know, stock or startup and those sorts of things. But Nassim Taleb talks about kind of like a barbell strategy which if you have exposure to the stock market or you have exposure, you know, to these asymmetric upsides, you know, where do you put, where do you put your money? You know, that's going to be, you know, safer and more stable. And I chose, as we talked about, I chose real estate 25 years ago. You learned that early on. What have you changed since seeing, you know, that downturn, as we both did through 08 09, 2010.

Well, I was a bit battered, ego bruised and broke. I was still a successful engineer. So that's when I doubled down and I got a master's in engineering and I got an mba. I started, I changed companies to take a bigger role at a, at a smaller company, started doing well and, and when I started researching, well, you know, how do the wealthy invest money and keep it and not lose it all. I started learning investments, that cash flow on day one, buying real estate that is existing construction, not new specific projects, ones that you can buy on day one and have an asset. And yeah, and I started learning about recession, resilient markets Like Houston, you know, around Texas. And look at the data where it's like, man, in 2009 and 10, it didn't go upside down, it just. And Houston just shrugged along.

Yeah.

Then it went up again. And so I, from California, Southern California, I was buying properties in Houston and I built a team and I was buying and I was renovating and I was refi. I was renting and I was repeating was the burn method, but I had no idea what that was at the time.

Yeah.

So. But it was, it was really rough. I was, it was my. I was moonlighting this and it was all of it with my own money and I was doing all the jobs on my night, my. In the graveyard shift, you know, when I was also a successful robot automation engineer climbing the corporate ladder, doing really big cool projects with like Lockheed and Tesla and J and J and know, just really fun stuff. But, but it, it slowed me down. I, I got, I let that side hustle really affect what I could do with my family, friends and my hobbies. And so that's. I had to. Back when I met my soon to be wife. And that was actually when I took a step back from that.

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I want to, I want to go back just a minute here. You talked about being raised in a home with two educators. You and. I don't know, I don't know if, if we shared this, but my, my mother was a teacher. She met my stepfather in school teaching and actually when my father passed away, she ended up remarrying. So I grew up with the two educator household as well. And it's true, it was like that. It was like the poor dad scenario. My parents were savers, but they did have a few rental properties. Interestingly enough, my stepfather still owns a couple of those properties that are, that are now paid off and they're still kicking off. They're not tremendous income but. But they're still kicking off income and doing that. What, what were some of the lessons that you heard or some of the, you know, money rules or lack thereof that you heard growing up?

Well, it was the process of buying assets and not liabilities. Right. And.

Yeah.

And not just trusting in stock market sort of investments, but understanding that I could become an educator and I could get a job and I could just barely be scraping by, but I would never have that financial security. I would never win the game of life until I learned how to invest my money. And so I actually dialed back my living style. I wasn't living lavishly, but I. Spending my Bonuses and I started saving my bonuses. And then I went to the, to the payroll department and I said, Look, I want 400 of every paycheck to be just taken out and put over to the other bank account. And I created a new bank account, Umpqua bank somewhere, some other random bank that was a. Detached from my Chase Bank.

And yeah.

So it goes out of sight, out of mind. And I knew that I started lowering and when I would get a raise or I would, I would just sock it away. And so I started doing that until I could find the right investments and then I started investing. And so there was a lot of, there was, there was a differentiation between my passion, which was my, my geeking out on my day job. Yeah. And the income that I took from that and what I did with it. I wanted to buy assets, I wanted to buy a more financially state future for myself. And so I made investing kind of like I actually called at one point when I learned how to do larger multifamily. I called it my third master's because this was the time that I was educating myself. Yeah. On how to increase my financial iq. I was educating myself on how to actually turn the money I work so hard to make into a profitable venture for my family and, and my, my life. So that those are some of the.

Yeah, no, I love that. And I think, you know, it's one of the challenges. I think a lot of people like yourself, and I know I work with a lot of physicians from my career and surgeons and they're very wealthy and they face this challenge which is how do you go from that kind of blue collar, middle class upbringing and we're taught, hey, just put your money in the stock market, oh, maybe 20, 40% bonds and work till you're 65. And then next thing you know, you have, you have this wealth and you, like you said, how do you then teach your children, you know, some of these, some of these new rules and it's not taught. Like even like my MBA is in portfolio allocation, institutional money management. And they still don't teach you, you know, the true rules of the wealthy. And you know, you have to dig down, you know, through all the information that's out there. I think it's becoming more mainstream, which is, which is nice as we, as a societies, we're able to offer these things. But I was just talking to an investor today, same thing. It's that stock and bond mentality. And you know, when you look at what the wealthy do, they invest totally differently. But I think a Couple quick underscores to some of the points you made. I think it's really important, you know, go out if you're a young listener, if you're, if you're listening today, go out, find a career, find a business that you can make a lot of money, you know, because if you're living on $50,000 income, it's hard to save anything, right? And one of my favorite rules, Patrick and you mastered it is, is have a savings tax. And I love how you did it. You know, you set it up so out of sight, out of mind. It's going into that account that then you have that capital ready to deploy. And I like to reverse things instead of saying, hey, at the end of the day, let's save 10% now just take 10, 20, get to the point where you can make enough money to save 50% and then you can really get that big flywheel running. How's that sound?

Yeah, it's kind of idea, it's detaching your happiness from how much money you spend. And that was the lunch because I, I speak to, as you probably do, I've spoke to and lawyers and CXOs and they're, they're making 700amillion dollars plus a year. They're spending every penny of it. Maybe they're getting that what comes out of their paycheck is the stocks and they're, they're betting that, that 1x from that one maybe whatever it is that they're, they're bitcoin day trading. The stuff blows my mind. But they've attached their self and they built lifestyle around keeping up with the Joneses. And when you, when your goal posts like that are on the horizon, you never get to the horizon, right? You just, once you get there, the horizon is now much further. And you get there, the horizon is not much further. And so you gotta really find success and where you're at today and figure out how to be happy while you carve out as much as you can as soon as you can. Because the longer you wait to invest, the harder of a journey it's going to be for you. And there is nobody that's going to tell you that. As you mentioned, your employer is not going to tell you that. I was asking questions to my 401k. They were, they were trying to get me into index funds. I went to a financial planner, they just wanted me to get into more index funds. And now looking back on it now, that's all they're taught. And actually to be a financial planner you need like six weeks of training and then you're in a company where you have to abide by the rules and you can't practice selling away and you might get fired. And they're just trying to put food on their family, kind of their annuity. And I realized, wow, that's how the world is. And so that's why we created Passive Investing Mastery. We do these every week or two. We have a bi weekly series where we just introduce new alternative investing strategies. And it's a completely new strategy every time. I just did one on aviation investing where you. Yeah. Take advantage of those hundred thousand pilot shortage. We haven't invest in pilot education or how.

Say that one more time. How many. What's the shortage in pilots right now?

600,000 pilots expected over the next 20 years. And yeah, like almost. So it's insane.

Yeah.

How you can manage that. How can you invest in pilot education? How can you invest in a plane and then rent it, lease it back for cash flow? Like there's strategies like that on gold. There's strategies like that on a done parking lots and mobile home parks. We do legal funding, investments in the legal industry. Very stable, totally recession resilient. The problem is the education is not there. The exposure is not there. For a time it was just trading the baseball cards of alternative investment strategies. Ones that don't rise and fall with the stock market, don't rise and fall with real estate, oil and gas. That can really build true financial security by having foundational investments into different markets. Right. And absolutely. And that's what's hard for people to access and get educated on. But that's where you'll truly be able to sleep at night going, man, stock market collapses. I've got funds over here and over here and over here I've got my legal investments, I got some medical, I get some education. I've got, you know, there's just so many different industries that don't care what each other are doing. You're not getting any of that education from the traditional financial educators that where it's acceptable for us to go to and they're provided to us.

Yeah, no, that's an excellent point. And you know, that's the challenge. So no different. You know, I was working for Medtronic, you know, big medical device company. And a surgeon would turn around and say, hey Chris, like what do you, what do you recommend for this procedure? And I'd say, well, we have this, this instrument, you know, this implant. And I tell the surgeon like what did you expect me to say, right? Like, I work for Medtronic. That's my job. I actually, I'd be fired if I said, hey, go use this other company's product. Unless we didn't have, you know, that option. And I think a lot of individuals, a lot of investors don't realize that when they go to their. Their broker, you know, their financial advisor, that financial advisor is no different. They have their portfolio of products, and like you said, Patrick, if they, quote, unquote, sell away, if they say, oh, yeah, go invest in, you know, this option that Patrick has or this real estate deal that Chris has that they can actually be fired for that. It's actually, you know, they're prohibited from doing that. The other thing that I found surprising, I had an actually Edward Jones advisor and said, hey, I want to invest in this real estate deal you have, Chris, but I can't do it because I work for Edward Jones. I'm gonna. My mother's gonna invest her money in this deal to kind of move around that. I was. And I was like, wow. I was like, so even, you know, these financial advisors that are at a high level themselves personally understand that there are better ways to do it. And I think a lot of, you know, you have to understand kind of what the motivations are on. From the person on the other side of the table that's giving you advice. And that's, you know, there's nothing wrong with that per se, but if you don't understand that that's what's happening, then it's harder to make those choices. But real quick, Patrick, you mentioned something else that's important, which is really a philosophy. And you obviously have a strong belief in education. You're highly educated, and you even said, hey, I got my third master's in real estate. And what I found. Yeah, and what I found is wealthy never stop learning. They're always reading books, they're taking classes, they're paying for coaching. You know, they're typically investing a significant portion in their education and doing that. And I want to. I want to talk about, you know, specifically, you know, what you do at Passive Mastery. But what I've learned, I'd like you to expound upon this, is that when you. When you start talking to the ultra wealthy, the family offices, the endowment funds, it's the opposite of the investor I was talking to earlier today that says, hey, I got 90 plus percent of my wealth in the stock and bond market. I got 10% in my house. What. What have you seen when you look at the wealthiest out There like how are they investing? You know, kind of as a percentage across the spectrum.

Yeah. So if you go to passiveinvestingmastery.com any of our slide decks for any of our deals, they start with the fundamental, you know, first few set of slides which actually shows, for example, Edward Wolf presents what are the locations of call it the middle class, the high income earners and the ultra wealthy. And what you'll see is that almost, almost entirely the wealth for the middle class is in traditional stocks. Right. That's the case because it's retirement account. Yeah. Now when you get to high income. Yeah, it's a high income. You get about 25% of it into alternatives which alternatives being outside of what we would call the stock market. But when you to the more wealthy, you see they're aiming for 50% and of that 50%, only about 24, 26% of that in real estate. Yeah. And so where's the other 25? Where are they allocating outside? So they've got some into traditional bonds and stocks, they've some into real estate, which of course is a strong driver and a core foundation of my portfolio. But being all in in real estate caused me to lose everything one time. Right. I don't want to lose my shirting, I want to lose. Maybe I'll lose a button, but I want to. So where are those other.

I like that.

Yeah. Remember there's other alternative allocations that, that people need to look for and that's really where we focus the. They're those lesser known ones where you build that true foundation where you know, you won't be down all at the same time. Especially today we find ourselves in a situation where we just finished an interest rate hike. Well, and the biggest one since the Great Depression in modern history.

Yeah. 5, 500 basis, more than that. More than 500 basis points in six months. You know, I tell, I tell investors it's, it's the equivalent kind of like what we experienced here, you know, this thousand year storm in Helene. You know, I think it's. I don't know if people appreciate the magnitude of what we just experienced. And that's, that's not a positive for real estate in general.

Not a positive for real estate is positive for the economy in general. Right. And the effect of that trillions of dollars through Covid put in and inflation fighting. But now we find in ourself in a situation where we have a very precarious situation as a country. 11 out of the last 14 teen fed rate hikes ended in a Recession, not to mention that we just dumped trillions of dollars into the economy. We're fighting inflation. The world's biggest economies are betting against the dollar. Now people are favorable about the new administration, but the new administration is also potentially going to put things like tariffs in place. They're going to limit the illegal immigration. Now, whether you like that or not, a lot of individuals that I know are worried because it's already really hard find construction workers and farmers. And so a lot of my investors are worried because if you take a million of those away, like where are we going to get the labor that it's a pro or a con to the country? I'm just saying that there's some.

Yeah, no, you're just, you're, you're speaking. No, I think it's important. What you're saying is it's important to be realistic about what's happening. And it's, it's just the reality of it. It doesn't, it doesn't matter what you think about it. It's, it's what's occurring.

Saying there'll be some short term pains. Well, yeah, well, talking about the economy right now and if, if we're probabilistically like 11 out of the last 14 ending in a bust while we have all these other destabilizing things going on, we could be headed for another one. Statistically, we are headed for another one. So nobody can predict it, but it's about being prepared regardless. I couldn't. Nobody in 2006 and seven told me, hey, don't invest in real estate right now because next year it's going to collapse. In fact, everybody, as much as you can, as soon as you can, leverage as much as you can, it only ever goes up, you're good to go. And so we're not seeing exactly the same circumstances today from the fraud that happened on those loans. Not that I was part of the fraud, but, but that was extreme private.

Going ninja, ninja loans. It was crazy.

Yeah, yeah. But we are seeing a situation in which nobody knows. And from a investor sitting at home right now, I challenge you do the pie chart of where your assets are. Figure out what percentage you have in what markets, how much in real estate, how much in the stocks, or if you've got maybe some oil and gas or maybe you've got something else in gold. Do you have some in gold? We do a lot about gold. Mining, precious metals, technology, metals, our platform. We talk about all kinds of alternatives. But take a look at that pie chart. Yeah, call me up. We'll have a call, take a look at our index on our website and then start feel how confident do you feel about the stability of each of those pieces and would you filter if all of a sudden you carved out one where like I don't feel super comfortable about where that's at today in the stocks or this real estate piece. And because, but, but it may be overallocated, how wouldn't you feel better if you just had the opportunity to carve out a piece and put it into another market? Like we do legal investing. Right. We invest in litigation funding because that has just been. It's like the Houston real estate curve just shreddy tried and true legal, the legal industry is just a steady growth like education and health. We do investments there because one, they're what we call non correlated. They don't rise and fall with any other broader markets just rely on the judicial process of the United States government, the rule of law, which we're famous for around the world. And that's right. You know, if you allocate there, those are gonna, those investments gonna come back to you irregardless of what thing else is going on.

I love that. Yeah. And so just to kind of recap that and I've seen the same thing, you know, you talk to the wealthiest out there, you talk to high level ris, that's, that's what we're seeing. Maybe 25% in fixed income, very stable, you know, you know, cash producing assets, 25% in stocks, but you know, 25% real estate and then 25% in these alternatives which, which have a very broad base like you said. And you know, these are the ones that like, like you mentioned, Patrick, they aren't correlated. You know, real estate goes up and down, stock market goes up and down. Bonds. We saw a massive bloodbath in the bond market in 2022 after a massive what, 2030. It's about a 30 year bull market, 40 year bull market, even in the bond market. So let's dive in a little deeper to this, these alternatives you've mentioned, you know, the legal funding you mentioned, the gold you mentioned, you know, financing airplanes and those sorts of things. What macro trends do you follow to kind of identify some of these areas before you dive into the specific opportunities themselves.

So I wasn't necessarily advocating for investments in airplanes, but we, we educate on all different kinds of assets from businesses and laundry funds, suburban barrel cask investing to all kinds of things. But we focus on industries that we find have recession resilience or we'll do one on an industry that we don't know, that we know doesn't have, have recession resilience and will pinpoint the challenges associated with it. We were very real and we bring on experts and all these people actually doing investments and strategists that are actually in these industries. So we, but when we look at different investments, me personally I look at the stability of the underlying market fundamentals behind the industry that it serves and, and I want to make sure that I shouldn't, I don't want to be the double and triple my money every year. I want to be the tortoise, not the hare. And I know that I want to be able to find these alloc locations that it's a little bit bigger than the 25. You know that's just, just how people tend to grow. But mine's a little bit bigger than the 25. In alts I like to find myself in a very strong hedged non correlated position. And if you look not at the wealthy but you look at hedge funds doing what are the sovereign ones doing? What are the private equity funds doing? These investments which are these lesser known kind of novel all alt investment highly coveted by these larger funds because they provide that non correlated nature to balance out and they make much larger allocation into these kinds of assets that make sure that, that it doesn't mean that they're looking for 2 and 3x returns but net across their portfolio they want to get reasonable 10 20x returns. The very interesting thing about these alts is that they have many of them the ability to return substantial returns at a very high risk adjusted nature. They're just lesser known. So not a lot of people are gunning for the same product. So the, the risk hasn't reduced the returns. The returns haven't been reduced like they are in the stock market where in the stock market is pretty much doubt and all the upsides pretty much been pulled out by the flood of people going to it. These lesser known alts you can actually get a great spread on a risk premium to get a higher return and at a lower risk adjusted position. And so those are the kinds of ones we look for. It's got to have that market fundamentals like I Sharp ratio. Yeah, yeah. High Sharpe ratio. I try not to use. In our company we have this. Yeah. If my grandma's knitting circle can't understand it then we shouldn't be using the terms. That's, that's our company's one of our transparency simplify the complex EOS goals.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love That I always think, like, if I can't explain it to my, My, my son and he gets it, then I need to say it a different way, like you said. But yeah, so the Sharpe ratio is basically a risk adjusted return, as you were mentioning. And that's. And, and this is. I think this is important because a lot of investors have this fear of missing out because you're like, oh, the stock market's up and my portfolio is not up. It's as much as the stock market because I have these allocations. But when the stock market's down, the bond market's down like it was in 2022, you have this outperformance in these other areas. And as you said, Patrick, I think one of the most valuable things that you can have in your portfolio is you reduce that variance. So if I can get a 10% return reliably or 12% return reliably year over year over year, to me, that's better than say, well, some years I get 30%, some years I get negative 20%. It's not as sexy, it's not as exciting on the whole. But when you reduce that variance, you actually increase your overall returns because you're not having to dig out of those massive holes when the market turns really hard against you.

It's not natural. And the condition. And they say people go to Vegas and they get addicted to losing. They don't get addicted to winning. And so your comments, a good point.

Yeah, yeah.

How sexy and exciting the stock market, because people just love the ride or they've lost and they don't want to get out. Right. They don't want to realize an unrealized game. And so it's a situation where I'm always, oh, I know I need. People are always calling me, oh, I know I need to get into these alternatives. I just need my stock market to rebound a little bit. And then as soon as it rebounds, oh, it's, you know, on a tear right now. You know, as soon as it gets a little bit higher. The challenge is if you never make the allocation, you'll never get diversified. You'll always be on this ride, which inherently in the human condition is an addictive, psychologically attractive thing, while it's also unhealthy for your financial success.

Yeah. And I think that's where you have an advantage as an engineer, because you, you have a little bit more logic. You probably have systems involved and do those things. And that's a great point. You know, if you, if you're constantly, you know, know, looking at your allocations you say, hey, the stock market's at all time highs today. We can peel some off of that, put them into some of these non correlated alternative assets that you mentioned. Then you can, you can literally create engineer the portfolio like you were talking about. Patrick, you mentioned your website, you know, your learning platform a couple times. You also have a couple great books out there. I was looking through one before we, we hopped on today and actually this is what really appealed to me. Alternative Investing Mastery, how the Wealthy Think Thrive in downturns. So Patrick, share with the audience. What's the best way to learn more about what you guys are doing? Take part in some of these educational events that you have and even learning more about the investment opportunities that you have too.

Yeah. So passive investing mastery.com go check it out. Passive investing mastery.com used to have a boring company that was a real estate company. But I wanted to create one that is alternative focused. So we have, it's a general passive investing mastery. And on that website you can opt in for our Mastery series. It's bi weekly. I'm almost doing them every week now. But a new alternative investment featured every time with two to three panelists that are experts in the field. And we get done in the nitty gritty. It's really cool. It's an education that everybody should have in college or in intermediate school. I mean this should be the high school education people should have. So education I wish I had when I was a kid. What is the world of investing? Increasing the financial IQ. We break things into simple terms. PassInvestingMastery.com I give away a book. I give away a book because it tells my whole story. And like many of your listeners, professionals out there, doing the best they can, maybe not sure how to get started or feel like they've had some success, but in the back of their mind there's something nagging. I still feel uncomfortable with my portfolio. I still feel like I could be investing a little bit smarter. I give away this book because this book tells my whole story. The ebbs and flows and how I try to control it and do it. All my own money and I lost it and I got it back. And then how I've now diversified from real estate, oil and gas, legal debt, equity, opportunistic, all kinds of things that I'm in now and that allowed me to break away from the daily, you know, grind. And my wife and I are now in Hawaii and so we tell that whole story. Passive investing mastery.com/book.

Yep. I'm sorry to interrupt you there. Yeah, Passive Investing, mastery.com forward/book. It's right here in the show notes. You got your website right there on the screen as well. And I got it pulled up here, too, Patrick, and I'm looking forward to seeing you here on one of your upcoming webinars that's coming up.

You have to put the something in how you heard about us because if, if it's a blank form, we don't know where you came from in your random. We don't ship out the book, but if you put the name of the podcast Next Level Income, or put Chris Larson's name, put something in how you heard about us, I will sign the book and we ship it out for free. We also give you the ebook if you want it, if you don't want the hardcover, but either. But you can also choose the ebook and a hardcover and I'll let you sign in. Ship it out. It's my way to give back to you and I'd love to chat with anybody wherever you're at in your journey. It's what I love to do. I love to talk to new investors and, and I'm not a financial planner, attorney, and accountant, but I, I can talk from a lot of years of experience and hopefully get you pointed in the right direction.

No, I love it. And Patrick, that's why I wanted to have you on because, you know, your core focus on education, I think is so important. It's, it's something again that we need across the, you know, not just the country, but really the world today. We need it in our young individuals that are out there. If you're listening today, check out Patrick's website, get a copy of his book. Just throw Next Level Income or my name, Chris Larson, in there and he'll send you that free copy and take that first step if, if not in the investing side, learn more about what Patrick is talking about because it's the same thing that I've seen myself interviewing hundreds of people talking to dozens and dozens of, of the ultra wealthy. This is how they do it and it's hard to find it out there. So please take advantage of that. Patrick, get some sun for me. Please stay warm. I've got to wear my vest here, even in my office, but hopefully it's, it's going to be warming up here shortly. But yeah, let me live vicariously through you out there in that Hawaiian sun.

All right, great chat, Chris. Thanks for having me on.

Yeah, thank you so much. Hey, Chris here again. I hope you found this episode Valuable. Now I have one more thing to give to you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also, please like share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on Apple Podcasts.