Ep 250: From Active to Passive Investor with Jim Pfeifer

If you are to be a successful limited partner investor and you're going to invest in syndications, the number one factor in your success is going to be if you join a community.

Welcome to the Next Level Income show where it's our goal to take your income, your investments and your life to the next level. I'm your host, Chris Larsen. If you haven't yet, get a copy of our book for free at our website, nextlevelincome.com. that's www.nextlevelincome.com. just click on the book link and I'll even send you a copy if you put your address in.

On today's podcast, we welcome back Jim Pfeiffer. Jim has dedicated his career to helping educate and advise people on personal finance and investing. As a full time passive investor, founder and former president of Left Field Investors, and now co host of the Passive Pockets podcast, Jim is passionate about empowering investors with accessible education and community networking opportunities. He holds a degree in finance and marketing from the University of Oregon and a master's in business education from the Ohio State University. In his free time, Jim enjoys skiing, playing ultimate Frisbee and cheering on the Buckeyes. And he lives in Columbus, Ohio with his wife and children.

Jim, welcome back to the podcast. As I was saying in the intro, you, you joined us on episode 121 and you're back with, with a little more hair on your head and your face this time. Just, just like me for episode we're at 2:50. I'm really excited. This is, this is a cool milestone for us.

Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on and congratulations for sure. Know how hard it is to be a consistent podcaster in 250 episodes. That is something else. So congratulations.

Yeah, no, thank you. And no, it's been awesome. We have a great community and I'm excited for you to share a little bit about how you've grown your community with now Passive Pockets. So, you know, share a little bit, Jim, about, you know, where you came from, Left Field Investors. And now you got Passive Pockets. And I'm really excited to see you guys grow your community as well.

Yeah, sure, thanks. So Left Field Investors was. It's funny, it's five years are almost that since we started. We were pandemic, baby. We were supposed to be just a dinner club in Columbus, Ohio, where I live. And March 18, 2020 was our first meeting.

Really?

Yeah. And that meant that it got canceled and we ended up going online to this brand new technology called Zoom that no one had ever heard of. And so we went on Zoom, had a meeting of 10 or 12 people. And I'm thinking of it as a mastermind. So I tried to keep it, but the cool thing was, you know, it was the pandemic, so no one had anything to do. We were able to get some really cool speakers like Brian Burke right out of the gates to come to our little meeting of 20 people because no one had anything to do. And so it just kind of grew from there. By the end of the year, we had 50 members. And I kept trying to keep it small because I was thinking mastermind. And by that time we realized that there was such a passion for people to learn about how to be a limited partner, how to be an LP in syndications, because there was, there weren't a whole lot of groups there. And you know, it's really scary to wire that amount of money to somebody you don't know. And so there's all kinds of really good reasons for community. And so that's when we really said, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna do this thing. We got a website, we started our podcast, and you know, we worked really hard for four years building this community. You know, the culture of the community is the thing I'm most proud of. And that, that wasn't us, the founders, that was built by the members of the community. And you know, the, the thing that is, like I said, these are, it's difficult to be an lp, right? These are long term investments, they're completely out of your control. And you know, it's hard to build trust. And so finding a community of other people who are doing the same thing, where you can share knowledge about operators, about markets, about asset classes, but all these things to help each other learn. And it's, you know, it's a group effort. And so we worked four years to build what, you know, I think is a, is a great community. And then we started talking with, with the folks, Bigger Pockets and they were starting a community as well. They were interested because what they found out is, you know, a lot of us started on Bigger Pockets. That's how I got my start in real estate, buying single family homes, then buying small multis and then, you know, being an active investor. And then the problem is get older. And I've done it for a while and I get tired of being an active investor and I find out that syndications are out there. Now I want to be passive. Well, then you can't, you can't really get anything from Bigger Pockets there. So there's A lot of people that kind of graduate from Bigger Pockets and you know, at Left Field investors, we would say, come on over here. And now, you know, In September of 2024, we, we merged with Bigger Pockets to create Passive Pockets, which is the same community of left field investors. It's just we have the resources of Bigger Pockets to support more of the things that we want to do. And so the things we're doing and doing it left field as well is we allow LPs to connect with each other. We have a forum where you can chat and talk to each other and learn. And then we all connect operators to the LPs. So we have deal flow that you can go and, and we do deal reviews. So we have experienced LP's review in a webinar interview and ask the tough questions of the operators. And then after the operator gets off the call, then we kind of chat about it and say, would we invest? Would we not invest? And it's just, it's a great way for LPs to learn. So there's a lot of resources on the platform. And the nice thing now is, you know, at Left Field Investors, we are passionate about serving the lp, but we didn't have the resources to do all the things we wanted to do. And so now with this merger with BiggerPockets, you know, we remain the same, have the same passion about helping the LP. And in fact, Scott Trench, the CEO of BiggerPockets, might be the most passionate guy about defending the LP of anybody I've ever met. He's just all about it. And now we also have some resources so we can do more things, better things with the, with a, with a company like BiggerPockets behind us. So that's kind of the, the five year. The five year story.

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, bigger. I mean, a lot of listeners are familiar with Bigger Pockets. And yeah, I like how you differentiate that. It's like, hey, you know, biggerpockets was built for, you know, the, the active investor. And you know, with our coaching clients, we talk a lot about, hey, it's great to have an active strategy. But, you know, as you mentioned, you know, at some point you typically graduate towards that passive strategy as you scale. Talk a little bit about your evolution, Jim, like, what were you doing on the active side and you know, talk about your journey towards more of a passive investor.

Well, it's funny, I, I thought I was always a passive investor, right. So, you know, when I got into real estate, so before real estate, I was always a stock Guy. As soon as I graduated from college, I started my 401k. I was confident the way to build wealth was paper assets. You know, and eventually I, I became a financial advisor. And the funny thing is as they, because they train you, I did this, you know, 20 years after college. They train you like you don't know anything about money. And I was pretty sure I knew everything there to know. And at the same time I was becoming a financial advisor. I was an accidental landlord because we couldn't sell a house. So we turned it in a rental when we, when we moved when our third child was born. So they were teaching me out money and I was seeing money in action with real assets and I was applying everything I learned to real assets rather than these paper assets. And what I, what I learned is that, you know, to me paper assets are speculation because you're really buying something and you're holding it hoping you can later sell it to somebody else for more. Right. With very little current benefit in the form of distributions or cash flow. And I was learning that, that real assets that produce cash flow and income, that's investing to me because you're receiving a current benefit and then on the back end you'll probably get appreciation, but that's not, you know, that's not the full benefit. And so as I was learning this real estate stuff, that, that's, that's kind of what I want to do. And so I was a financial advisor for a while, but when I got to the point where I was investing more in real estate because I always prided myself in putting my money where I put my clients money and I couldn't do that anymore because financial advisors, you're not licensed for it and, and you don't get compensated for it. So it's really hard to recommend real estate to people.

Yeah.

So I started getting more into real estate. I started buying single family homes. There is buying turnkey properties in Memphis and Indianapolis and Dayton, Ohio. And then I had some A class kind of suburban rent in Columbus where I live. And I saw that they were, you know, making money and so I thought, okay, well one door is great, why don't I get more doors on property? So I started buying multifamily and I was out looking for a, you know, fourplex because that's where most people start. And I somehow did not buying a 22 unit C class property.

And then, and what year was that?

Oh man, that was like 2016 maybe.

Yeah, yeah. And that was a good, good value add. Great, great time.

Oh yeah. It was, that was the only thing that, the only thing that worked on these assets was that it was. I got lucky with the timing. I bought a 22 and then an 8 and a 4 all back to back and just kind of went all in. But the whole time, the problem was I was an active real estate investor. But I thought I was passive, right? Because I had a property manager who managed it for me. That does not make it passive. Right. I, the asset manager. But so what I was doing mostly was I was fighting with my property manager because he wanted to evict people and do all this. And I, I bought it for cash flow, right? And it wasn't cash flowing because we had to evict, we had to like redo everything. And I wasn't willing to do that. And my property manager was interesting. Yeah, it was super expensive at his, at, at the, the property turns when we had to evict somebody, it just cost a lot of money. And I was trying to make that property cash flow. So it just didn't work. And slowly I realized I just wasn't a good asset manager. And that 22 unit, that large property, I actually, when I sold it, I sold it to a buddy of mine, knowing I had more than doubled the value just by owning it and having the market go up, right? That saved me. But I sold it to a buddy who I knew with a year he would double the value of that property. And he did. But I just didn't have the patience or the ability to do what he did, which was basically evict all the bad tenants at once, put a bunch of money into it and then, you know, really drive the value. Because I didn't understand that net operating income on commercial properties is what drives the value. I was still a single family home guy and so I really didn't understand what I was doing. But I made a lot of money on all the properties. And so what I realized around 20, 18, 19 is that I wasn't a good asset manager. These properties, other than the suburban ones, original ones I had, these weren't cash flowing properties, they were appreciating properties. But I was firing property managers. I was, you know, fighting them constantly getting new tenants. It was just, it just wasn't working out. It was because I wasn't a good asset manager. So then that's when I found syndications. And then I realized that's passive investing, right? That's where all work is up front. I have to qualify the operator, make sure there's someone I want to operate with. Or deal with, then I need to analyze the market, analyze the deal, send in my money, and I'm done. Right. Then I'm just collecting reports and hopefully distribution. So that's totally different from active. What I thought was passive. So that's kind of my story. And once I found syndications, I was like, okay, I can do this. This is where my strength lies. I can evalu operators, analyze deals, but I don't have to operate and manage the asset. And once I found syndications, that's when I kind of was off to the races. And the first thing I did was, I need help. I want to learn from others. And that's how we started the community.

Yeah, that's awesome. And there's a lot of lessons in there. Jim. My MBA is in portfolio management, and I went through a lot of the similar experience. I know we covered a little bit of this in our first podcast together, but I think it's something that's very interesting. A lot of people don't understand. And you said it, you know, you as a, as a financial advisor, you know, with most companies, unless you're an RIA or with, you know, some of these companies that are set up more like a family office.

Yeah.

You can't sell away. You can't. Not only can you not recommend these alternative investments to clients, but in most cases, you can't even invest yourself if you're working for one of these companies. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that?

Yeah. Was one of the things that drove me crazy is I was trying to do different investments and with different. With people. Right. With other people. But you can't when you have all these license. So eventually I had to get rid of all my licenses because it was stopping me from doing what I wanted to do. And the other thing about financial advisors, they don't avoid real estate because they're like, you know, evil geniuses that want all your money in paper assets, although they do, but they're not licensed, they don't get paid. And so they also, a lot of times you're going to invest in real estate, you're going to take money out of their pocket. But also they don't have the modeling the software to include real estate. So now my current financial advisor, he does include real estate. So one of the biggest recommendations I have for people is if you are going to work with an attorney, a financial advisor, a tax accountant, a cpa, which I recommend you work with those three professionals and don't yourself make sure they invest in real estate. If you're a real estate investor, make sure that not only do they understand it, but they do it themselves. Because, you know, my financial advisor, he includes all my real estate, which is the bulk of my portfolio. He includes that in the financial modeling. When I send a K1 to my CPA, he understands because he deals with a ton of K1s because he's an investor himself. And so those kind of things, you know, the same way I prepare my own tax documents or my tax returns, I don't prepare my own legal documents anymore. You know, that's things I leave to the professionals. And I just mean they have real estate exposure in their own portfolio, so they can, you know, be experts.

Yeah, that's an excellent point that I think a lot of newer investors don't understand. If you need any of those professionals, as Jim was talking about, we have a great, great list inside of our community. Just shoot us an email@info nextlevelincome.com info nextlevelincome.com if you need somebody that, that you could want to work with, that understands real estate. Because what we found, Jim, is that the, the ultra wealthy, you know, those that are worth. I just on a podcast yesterday, and you're talking about how, you know, the average investor, you know, they're like, what's the model? Well, you can tell us better, you know, 60, 40 stocks and bonds or 80, 20 stock if you're, you know, more risk, you know, tolerant, you know, whereas you look at the ultra wealthy and they're putting maybe 20, 25, 30% in stocks. They have 25 in fixed income, 25 real estate, 25 in other alternatives. And that's not what we hear from our advisors. And again, it's typically because they, they're not incentivized. They're not even in some cases allowed, nor do they understand how to model it and do that.

Right. Or they don't know about it. And it's not malicious, necessarily. But if you think about it, think about the wealthy people that you know or that you know about. Yeah, I can almost guarantee not one of them became wealthy from the stock market. Right. They either own businesses like Warren Buffett or own real estate. Right. Those are the two ways to grow your wealth. And, you know, throwing money in the stock market. You know, the only, the only use I see for the stock market, for me personally, and everybody's different. Um, but the. I use it for liquidity. Right. Because it is. Especially when, you know, interest rates were really low. There was no other place where you could get liquidity with some return. So, you know, that's my use for the stock market because I, when I first got into passive investing, I made liquidity errors, right? That's my biggest error. Because if you're an active investor and you own a 22 unit apartment, or you own a single family home and you need money for anything, right? You can sell those now, you can sell them tomorrow. You won't get the price that you might want, but you could get, you could liquidate and get cash. But if you're in a syndication, you're stuck, right? You cannot. And so when things happen, like when the market changes, so, you know, in 20, 19 and 20, all the deals had a form of five years, but most of them were taken two or three years to fulfill their business plan. So investors got used to investing 50 grand and two or three years later getting 100 grand back, right? And so when the market changed and interest rates went way up, then deals that were Pro Forma at 5, now they're like 7 or 10 years. So if you had planned your liquidity to be, you know, rotating through every three years and now it's every 10, yeah, that's a big deal. And I didn't really, I kind of got caught flat footed with that, like, oh, liquidity, that's something I need to think about. That's different when you're passive as to when you're active. So that's one of the key lessons I learned is you got to make sure you have liquidity. And so now I put some of it in the stock market.

Yeah, that's a great point. And you know, you always have to look at these. You know, if it's a syndication, real estate, you have to think of it like real estate. You know, it's, you probably can't sell it the next day. And if you're not in, if you're not the gp, if you're not the operator, you don't get to make that choice. And if you want to sell it, there might be, there might be somebody that's willing to buy it from you, but they're probably going to buy at a discount because they know that you need that liquidity and want to do that. I think that's a very, very important lesson. And that's why, you know, that's, that's liquidity. That's a liquidity premium that you're paying. You know, when you put your, your money in these. You know, you also mentioned something else, which I've heard this multiple times from investors. They say, oh, you know, Chris, I'm making 30% on my rental. And I said, okay, let's walk through that. I bought it for 200,000. I put 40,000 down. I'm making, you know, 30% on my money, which would be what, 12,000. Your thousand bucks a month? That's a little bit more reasonable. But then you say, well, what. What's your, you know, what's your management fee that you're paying? Oh, I manage it myself. As you were saying, it's like, okay, so that's 10%. What are your. What are your reserves that you hold for turns? Like, you were saying, oh, well, we don't have any vacancy because, you know, what about maintenance? Oh, it's a new property. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's like, well, if you put that 25 or 30% aside, are you really making 30? You're making zero at that point. And I think that's a lot. That's what a lot of investors that have been active have seen is. You have to compare apples to apples. So talk about how, you know, you looked at that. You said, okay, you know, I'm. I don't know if, like, for me, I looked at the returns I was making specifically on my equity, as my properties had appreciated over time, and I was making like 7% before tax is what I realized. And I was like, geez. And that's what drove me originally towards multifamily and syndications. I more than doubled my returns with less work and better tax tax advantages. Did you see something similar?

Absolutely. I think. I think the. The key. There's a. There's a few key points here. And, you know, one of them is when you're just a active investor, you're. You're probably not behaving like a professional asset manager. Right. So I did vacancy, right. When I was doing my report or my pro formas. I would count 5% for vacancy. Okay. But that's. That's all in. Vacancy includes a lot more things than people just not being in apartment. Right. That vacancy has, like, four different metrics. Loss to lease. There's all these different parts of vacancy that as an active investor, I didn't even know about. So real vacancy on a port, you know, on a. An apartment, they're going to have 5% for actual vacancy and then all this other stuff. So it ends up being 10 or 8 or whatever.

So there's economic vacancy.

Yeah, that economic vacancy is different than vacancy. But I didn't know that until I got into commercial real estate. But when you look at the returns of active versus passive. For me, the, the only real way I can see someone being active and beating the returns of a passive investor are if you have certain skills like you're really good at swinging a hammer and doing rehab and you want to do it yourself, great. You have an advantage. Or let's say you know the Columbus market better than anyone, so you exactly what sub market to buy properties and you have a huge advantage. Okay, you can, you can win there. But other than kind of those kind of advantages, if you're just a regular guy like I was and still am, I didn't have any of those advantages, so why wouldn't I? The same as I'm hiring a CPA to do my taxes and, you know, an attorney to write my legal documents, why don't I hire an asset manager to manage my real estate assets? Because they're going to do it better. Because that is all they do, right? I'm just some guy who's, you know, listen to BiggerPockets, podcasts, and, and, you know, and I had some success and you can have success that way. But if you have capital, right, if you're later in your career and you have access to capital, why don't you give it to a professional to manage? It's the same way when, when I was, you know, 30 years old and kind of scraping by, I could maybe write out a contract on my own. I did my taxes on TurboTax, but now that I'm in my mid-50s and everything's a lot more complicated, I have a little bit more money. I pay people to do that because I get better results. It's the exact same for an asset manager to pay someone to manage my. The real estate was a professional. They're going to do it better than me and the returns have shown, I'm going to get better returns. Now when I was an active investor, I got super lucky because the market went up for 10 years. Right? I mean, it was just incredible.

Yeah, cap rates were compressing, money was, money was free, essentially. Actually negative real interest rates. It was incredible, right?

So anybody could make money those days investing in real estate, and I did. But almost none of my properties, cash flowed. And the funny thing, when I did the analysis to purchase each and every one of them, those properties, I did, I got an Excel spreadsheet and I did a, a cash flow analysis. Oh, this property is going to cash flow X amount and this is going to be the cash on cash return. None of that happened. The only thing I Didn't model was what the appreciation would be. And that's where I doubled my money on a lot of these properties was appreciation. The one thing I didn't pay much attention to, didn't model. That's where I had success. And so you have a lot of operators out there now who are saying, well, look at all the success I had. And I'm like, yeah, you had the same success I did. Right. Which was the market, you know, appreciated. So now that we've been through some troubled times, you know, fortunately I sold before then. We're going to be able to evaluate operators based on the good and the bad. It was really hard to evaluate an operator in 2019. They say, hey, I've been doing this for six years. I've never lost investor capital. Well, I hope not. Right. Nobody lost anything. But now, you know, okay, did you lose investor capital? And they say, yes, that's not a disqualifier. But it means I'm going to ask a lot more questions. Where in 2019 I would have been like, no way that how could you lose capital?

Right.

So it's changed a lot and I think it's made it easier in some sense to evaluate operators because through these challenging times.

Yeah, that's a great point. And you know, I think a lot of people I've seen, I've talked multiple times seeing real estate cycles since I was younger. I watched both my parents lose their jobs in real estate. The savings and loan crisis. I watched, you know, 9, 11. That was kind of a part of the, part of the cycle that went down. 0809 was obviously, you know, just massively destructive to real estate in general. I think we're coming up to another point where we're going to see, you know, a shakeout occur, which we're seeing that right now. Yeah, Jim, where. What are you seeing, you know, in terms of operators coming? We'll kind of do some fun like speculation here.

Yeah.

What, what do you see are going to be the sectors that are outperform for LP investors? And, you know, we can also kind of transition and kind of. Some of your thoughts with the new administration, the Trump administration coming in and how that's going to affect, you know, some of these real estate investments as well?

Yeah, I think the, you know, the next few years could be really good for multifamily. I think it's going to have to clear out a lot of stuff over the next six months to a year. But, you know, it's just if you look to the. And I think A lot has been made about this, but there are so many new apartments delivered in the last couple of years and there's none being started now. Means there will be.

It's dropping off a cliff.

Right.

Which means almost incredible how, how far it's going to drop.

Yeah, yeah. And in two or three years, that's when going to need that supply and it's not going to be there. So I think apartments are probably going to be good then. I think industrial probably will still keep going. Maybe not as good as it has been, but, but I think it'll keep going. And I think, you know, if you're in the right place for office, I think there's some opportunity there. And I think, you know, neighborhood retail is pretty popular and I think that that could continue. I think the, as far as the, you know, the next six months to two years, it's just so uncertain. Right. I think the, the Beige report, which I guess is what the Fed comes out. One of the Feds comes out with every. Yeah, that's what Beige Book comes out, I think six times a year. But they broke the record this time that it just came out for using the word uncertainty. It was used over 45 times. And it's because we have tariffs on, tariffs off, tariffs on, tariffs off. And so no one knows what's happening. Right. Immigration is another big one that knows what's actually going to happen. So I think part of the thing with this new administration coming in is everything is so uncertain. And you know, they used to sound like uncertainty.

Yeah, yeah.

And politicians used to get in trouble for waffling. Right. But it's like, I don't know if waffle is the right word, but it's just so back and forth like, yes, we're going to do this. No, we're not. So no one knows what happened. And I think that just has everybody kind of spooked. And so people can't plan. If you don't know what's going to happen, you can't plan. So I think the next, you know, until we kind of get some certainty, I think it's just going to be a roller coaster. But in the long term, real estate performs. Right. Just listening to John Chang on a podcast yesterday.

Yeah, I love John.

And he was saying, you know, 2020-2025 was a year period, and if you look at that five year period, you probably did okay if you were consistently in real estate. Now if you're going to look at 21 to 26 or 22 to 27, I don't that's going to be the same thing. But what Brian Burke says, who's also an experienced real estate, he says over any 10 year period real estate's going to do fine. Right. And that's necessarily the same as other asset classes. The stock market and other things might not be like that and, but real estate is pretty predictable and it's going out of style. Right. We're always going to need a place to live. So I'm bullish on real estate and I have a few asset classes I'm looking at. But really the nice thing is you can pick, it's hyper local. Right. If you're investing in the stock market and you invest in Apple and you know Apple has the best year ever stock crash, Apple's price is going down, right? Where if you invest in an apartment in Columbus, Ohio and something happens in North Carolina, your people are still going to pay rent in Columbus. So that's right. I think that's the benefit of real estate.

Yeah, that's a great point. And you know, the other thing is with the stock market is, you know, you know, we've seen this repeatedly. You can have a great stock but if the entire market corrects like it has 10% here, you know, over the past few months, then everything goes down effectively, you know, as those, you know, whether it's a P multiples that reset or whatever it might be. So it all kind of gets sucked down with it, with those risk on assets. But it's a great point. And we've seen, you know, one of our most popular offerings here the past couple years has been our debt fund. Because investors say, oh, put it in here, we can collect some income, we can pull it out if we want to and you know, we can kind of ride out some of this uncertainty. So we've seen a lot of popularity and we've also seen rates like, you know, go up like 50 for investors in some of these income producing assets where equity has kind of come down.

I should have mentioned debt because that is, you know, that's the most popular offering that, that I see now if you put a debt offering, you know, and that's, it's funny that that's the most popular when debt is what caused all the other deals that are going bad. Right, bad. And now people are flocking to debt. But I think it's a different kind of debt. You're on the other side, right? You're not on the equity side. So the debt is your friend. But that is super popular. It'll be interesting to see over the next few years as hopefully these equity deals come back and are able to be profitable again if the interest in debt decreases. But right now, you know, probably over the last year or 18 months, I put more money into debt than I have probably into, into equity offerings. So that's, that's a great point.

Yeah. And it's, I've talked a lot about, you know, we mentioned, we kind of mentioned the real estate cycle. And I follow, I say, I think it goes in like 18, 18 and a half year periods. And right now where we are, banks are profitable and like you were saying, be on the other side, be the bank, you know, being, you know, being part of that debt is being the bank. So when bank profits go up as interest rates go up, investors can take part in that. So if you're listening, you want to learn about that, click on our Invest link and you can get more information about some of the things we do. But Jim, I'm excited we were talking about your Passive Pocket Summit coming up here next month. Share a little bit about that with the audience and how they can learn more about not only Passive Pockets but also your summit here in the near future.

Yeah, we used to do a meetup at Left Field Investors and it was by far most popular thing that we've done. And you know, I don't want to boast, but there were some very experienced people in real estate who came to a couple of our meetups and said they hadn't been to a better, a better meetup. And we're gonna do the same thing with the Passive pocket summit. It's May 2nd and 3rd in Columbus, Ohio. And you know, we have just some, some great guests. Brian Burke, Jeremy Roll, plenty of others, great guys. And it's, it's what we try to focus on is networking, putting people together. So if you're an lp, you're gonna go there and you're gonna meet a ton of LPs, there's gonna be opportunities for you to meet people and come out with, you know, long term relationships. And the same with gps, you're going to be able to meet all the GPS that are there as well. When I went to the, the biggest thing I've gotten ever out of a meetup was when I went to one and I met a guy, Ryan Stieg, who became one of the LFI founders. But he and I just kind of connected at a meetup, decided we were going to have our own little two person mastermind and have a conversation once every two weeks just to share ideas and we did that and we've become great friends. And so that's what you're looking for at these meetups, these resources that you can use, people and otherwise. And so we're really excited to have our first Passive Pocket summit. You can check it out@ passivepockets.com there's an tab and just click on that. And then also if you want to go to passivepockets.com you can get a free seven day trial to our community. You can access the forum, the operator reviews all of the content that we have. We do deal reviews where you can see experienced LPs asking tough questions of operators. There's just a ton of content there. And this is kind of, you know, I know I'm pitching Passive Pockets, but the real pitch to me is if you are to be a successful limited partner investor and you're going to invest in syndications, the number one factor in your success is, is going to be if you're joining a community. Now I recommend that the culture of that community matches your personality. And if Passive Pockets isn't it, you know, I'm biased, I think it's great. But if it's not, not for you, find another community. There's a lot of communities out there. And you mentioned your own community, right? You're getting, giving away resources and things like that. So you need these communities so that you can learn to become a better investor. So I can't, I can't recommend enough. Joining a community.

Absolutely. No, we're big on that, Jim. And yeah, if you want to learn more about ours, you can check everything out@nextlevelincome.com also check out pass pockets.com to learn more about Jim's community. And Jim, always enjoy our conversations here. Great to see you again.

Thanks. Thanks for having me, Chris. It was a pleasure.

Hey Chris, here again. I hope you found this episode valuable. Now I have one more thing to gift you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also, please like share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on Apple podcasts.