Why Should You Consider Investing In Self Storage With Kris Bennett

Welcome to the Next Level Income show where it's our goal to raise your income, investments and your life to the next level. I'm your host, Chris Larsen. You can get a free copy of our book and new audiobook@nextlevelincome.com book. You're not going to want to miss today's show with Chris Bennett. Chris is a self storage specialist and he's going to share with you why self storage is not only a great investment today, why it's going to be a great investment into the future and and how his group uses demographics and technology to add value. Find great deals in this space and share them with investors. On today's show we have Chris Bennett of passiveinvesting.com Chris has 14 years of real estate experience spanning self storage and residential investment and brokerage. At passiveinvesting.com, his responsibilities include sourcing self storage deals and leading due diligence. Chris has been a guest speaker at the North Carolina Self Storage association and UNC Kenan Flagner Business School executive, MBA and undergraduate real estate classes. Chris is a graduate of UNC Chapel Hill and the Kenan Flagler Business School where he served as a fund manager for the school's real estate investment fund. Chris, welcome to the show.

Thanks. Glad to be here.

Yeah, no, I'm really excited. Enjoyed catching up a little bit here before the show. We're coming off the back of the self storage. What is it? Self Storage summit here just a couple of weeks ago. Phenomenal event. So for anyone that missed that or hasn't heard about you and your part in passiveinvesting.com maybe you could share a little bit about your background and how you ended up in the self storage space.

Absolutely. So we'll go back in time to 2007. Got my real estate license. My first day on the job as a brand new residential real estate broker was August 20, 2007. Lo and behold, nobody ever knew. Yeah, that was a great foresight. Right? Nobody knew what was coming. In 2008, our real estate class was packed. I mean, 150 people or whatever. So we're all going to be rich and go kill it with Robert Kiyosaki Wisdom. But Anyway, so obviously 2008 hit. I was actually working in the foreclosure side of the business, which was both good and bad. So I worked with a few investors who could pay cash for deals and if you could buy stuff back then, obviously and hold it for the next 10 years, you'd be a multimillionaire. But no Knew, right. We were all going through a really hard time. And it was the worst time to be a real estate agent. Like the last, I don't know, 25, 50 years, something like that. So got ourselves in the foot during that time. But anyway, so fast forward. I got kind of tired of the business. I was evicting people and doing all kinds of stuff with things and asset managers. It was not fun. I was the boots on the ground kind of guy. So, yeah, just didn't want to do that any longer. So I decided to go to school. I was a bit older. I was in my, I think, early 30s, I want to say. I can't remember now exactly, but somewhere around there. Went to community college here. That area I Live in Charlotte, N.C. ended up transferring to UNC Chapel Hill. They have a real estate program there that I didn't know about at the business school. When I got to Chapel Hill, coincidentally, I didn't want to do anything with real estate. I wanted to go do something completely different. Just because I had seen all the bad stuff from real estate and didn't understand. Fully invested in the opportunity that presented itself. Could I go back? If I could go back in time, obviously I do things a little bit differently, but it's okay. It works out. So I got to the business school, applied to the real estate fund that they have there. Oh, and I'll back up for a quick second. It's funny. I got to Chapel Hill. I was looking for summer work after my first year there. And the only job I could find on the job boards at the school was for a real estate private equity fund in Chapel, but based in Chapel Hill. If you guys don't. Eller Capital, Daniel Eller. Anyway, I interned for that summer, and then the following summer. And I realized that, oh, my gosh, this guy goes and buys him. I had no idea what he did. He goes and he buys apartments and he raises capital, do these deals. And he was looking at a portfolio of like 16 apartments at the time in the North Carolina area. I was helping him underwrite it. I didn't know anything about underwriting. I had never seen so many zeros in the purchase price of a property in my life. You know, so it was like millions of dollars. And I was just astounded by what he was doing. And so that was my first exposure, really, to syndication, raising capital and buying apartments. So anyway, I applied to. They have a real estate fund at the school. I applied to that and got on as a fund manager. We were taking friends and family money we had about into a fund platform, I guess you'd say it was funded number three. Yeah, it was. $3.6 million is what we had at the time of LP money. And this is real money, high net worth individuals, friends and family of the business schools. So it was really an honor to be a part of that program and to be a fund manager. But we invested in hotel, self storage, multifamily, bunch of other stuff. And it was really cool to see these deals. We were a small piece. We put in like 250,000 on average and these guys are raising like 10 times that to do a big development or whatever. So it was really cool to see that. Anyway. Worked at a graduate, at an office, a family office I call it, up in the Raleigh area. We were tasked with looking for multifamily deals and I couldn't make the numbers work with the return we're trying to target and the economy at the time, this is about 2016. Things were pretty hot at that time. If you think they're hot now, they are. They were hot then and it's going like up in a sense like a rocket ship. But anyway, so we pivoted to self storage and I can compare the underwriting of the two and the operation and all this stuff. And I was like, wow, yeah, this is a great, this is a great opportunity in the storage space. And so we put together a fund. We raised money on Crowdstreet.com, and we went out and purchased a good number of self storage facilities and closed them obviously and completed that whole. The Fund 1 is what we called it. I ended up moving back to Charlotte to be closer to friends and family. My wife is. Her family's in the area so we moved back here. I partnered with some other guys to do some single family home development and look for self storage deals. Then fast forward a little, met my partner John. I kept in contact with Dan Hand from his very first meetup that he ever had when he was getting into the business before they owned anything and he even met Brandon and anybody else. He had a meetup in Charlotte. I don't even know how I connected with him, but I got invited and I had the first meetup and it was me and Dan and like three or four other people. I just kept going because it kind of made sense to go and connect with people even though I was interested in storage and not really family. So he and I stayed in touch. You know, that was two plus years ago, something like that. And we stayed in touch since that time. He contacted us, my other partner, John, and said, hey, let's. We want to do storage. You guys are doing storage. Let's talk. So we did when it made sense to merge the two companies together, and we came in under the passive investing umbrella. And that was in January of this year. So that's kind of where we're at right now. And that's my story, I guess, in a big nutshell.

That's a good size nutshell. No, it's fantastic. And that's one of the things that I like about you, Chris, is you've done more than just self storage. You have a view of the market. And it is. That's when we did our first syndication in 2016, view. And it was hot then and it's gotten a lot hotter. But it's very dynamic now, obviously with a lot of different things. So I guess, you know, as somebody who's seen both pieces, who's written underwritten both pieces, talk a little bit about some of the similarities and then also the differences between multifamily and self storage.

Yeah, sure. So I guess let's start with the differences. Cause it's a little bit easier to think of it that way. One is like, for example, the rents on self storage, let's say. Well, in similar. Let's. Okay, let me back up for a quick second. In apartments, you might rent it for, let's say it's $1,000 per month and you. It's a thousand square feet. So that's a dollar per foot in rent, right. In revenue. In storage, you might have a 10 unit, that's 100 square feet. And you can rent that for $1 per month as well. So in that sense, they're similar. You might get close number in square footage, right. As far as a dollar per foot or revenue per foot. But your. The you actually bring in is drastically different. Right. $1,000 versus $100 a month is, you know, a very different amount, amount of money. People sometimes don't realize that when they're going from multifamily to storage. But that can also be a pro because the prices in general for self storage and the number of units that you can get is less than in multifamily. Right. So if you had a million dollars or something like that, you can go buy maybe $5 million apartment complex something, something like that. Right. And you might get, I don't know, 20, 30, 40 units. I don't know, depends on where it is. You take that same million dollars, you want to go buy a $5 million project. In self storage, where you can probably buy 300 units in self storage. So the revenue can be similar on a per foot basis. The actual dollar amount that you get in, that you make is less obviously in storage as far as total dollars are concerned. But you can buy more units with the same amount of equity. So your vacancy risk is a little bit different if you have those 20, you know, let's call it 20 units. In multifamily, two, three, four of those go dark. Getting real close to your break even point. Right. You know, you're getting trouble maybe. Whereas in storage, you know, a 15% occupancy considered stabilized, so you're in your break even point is much, much less around maybe it's called. It could be around 40% to 50% or so. You can lose a lot more of your tenant base in self storage and be okay versus multifamily. So there's. But again, there's more defendant deals to look at. Right. If you take Charlotte, for example, you go on apartments.com, just type in, you know, what you're looking for. Two, three, you know, something like that. Excuse me, two, something like that apartment. I mean, you'll find a lot, right? There's a lot of those, but you go, there's only like roughly, let's call it plus or minus 400 source facilities in all of Charlotte in the MSA. So that's. Yeah, it's a lot less. Right. As far as numbers. So trying to find a deal that works and makes sense can be a little bit tricky in the self storage space. So there's a ton of pros and cons that we can talk about further, but those are the big ones that people sometimes don't, I guess, realize or think through.

Yeah. So in my book, I talk a lot about the demographic trends that are supporting multifamily this decade, how we're not building enough units. You have millennials that are renting and bigger numbers. And I think the pandemic last year, if you couldn't buy, then you're probably going to continue to rent as you save up that down payment that you might have, you might have had to spend last year. We have baby boomers that are selling their homes to unlock their equity, especially in this hot seller's market, and they're renting. Talk a little bit about the demographic trends that support self storage.

Well, we're a nation of. I was going to say hoarders, but that isn't fair. We're a nation who likes to buy stuff. Right. And I See, nothing wrong with that. Yeah, we're consumer, we're consumption driven economy and there's nothing wrong with that. I like it. It's fine. I want to have 25 different choices of shampoo when I go to the stor store. I don't want two. So it's totally fine by me. However, we fill up our homes and we realize, oh man, we need more room for whatever it might be, you know, whether it be Christmas decorations and just grandpa passed away, sadly enough. But we need to put his stuff somewhere and I can't bring myself to get rid of it, you know, stuff like that. So it's just a matter of, hey, we put things that we don't want to get rid of. We have an emotional attachment to those things sometimes. And then at the same time we like to move. You're talking about people who are possibly downsizing. Right. So right now I live in a 2,700 square foot house and I think about my kids and they grew up and all that. Am I going to want to live here when I'm older? Not really. You know, I'm going to want to downsize my home just like you had mentioned. So. But some things I don't want to get rid of. I need to put it somewhere in storage. And so that's where storage comes into play. It's kind of funny. We bought this house. It was a former model home and it came fully furnished. So the stuff you see behind me, if you're watching this on YouTube or whatever, you can't see it on the podcast, but I have like some bookshelves behind me. These were here when I moved in. Like all we could literally had just packed our luggage and just moved into the house. It was fine. It was.

That's pretty cool. I like that idea. We just finished building our house and I will tell you what, you know that buying furniture, the interior designer that my wife worked with, I probably could have bought. Actually, I know I could have bought the original property I bought with cash when I was in college.

It's funny. Yeah, it's a lot. So yeah, so we were really blessed to have that happen. But then there's some pieces of furniture that we're selling off. For example, we have up in the one of the rooms upstairs. And I'm going somewhere with this. One of the rooms upstairs has a nice dresser in it. I looked it up to see how much it costs. It's about $1,000. Dresser, girls dress, a woman, a ladies dresser, soft closed doors. I mean, it's nice. It weighs 200 pounds. We're going to sell it. And in my mind I'm like, I don't want to sell this. I want to put it in storage. Like, I don't want to get rid of it. But then I think about, why am I going to do that? Because I don't want to keep holding stuff. Exactly. So we're going to sell it and do the money. But the point is, people kind of think along those lines. If I'm downsizing, if I lost a job, which we see some of that happening, obviously, last year with the pandemic moving, I got friends right now they're selling their homes and they're actually moving into rent for now temporarily to pay down some debt. Need some place to put their stuff. Right. I know that sounds kind of crazy, but that's their financial situation right now. They need some place to put their stuff. So it goes into. As a result. So we're very mobile workforce and economy and folks like to move and buy stuff. And so that kind of drives some of the. For self storage.

I'm not a big stuff guy. I consider myself more of a minimalist. My wife, it drives her crazy because every quarter I go through my closet and I donate clothes and she's like.

Dude, I'm just like that.

Yes. So it's kind of ironic that you and I are talking about self storage, but when we were in the D.C. market, we had a self storage unit right across the street because there wasn't garage space. I've always been a cyclist and we keep some things over there. When we were building our house, we used one of the pods, which you're probably familiar with, which is kind of a cool thing. But I can see if we had a storage unit, how we might have left some stuff in there.

Absolutely.

Also depending on how we did it. So I think if you're listening to this, you're probably thinking, yeah, I've used self storage, or I have a unit right now that I'm using. So it's really interesting and I don't think this trend is slowing down as people are now saying, hey, I can live and work wherever they get to move around. We have people in Asheville renting our Airbnb. They're coming and staying for a week or so at a time and testing the market to see if they want to live here. They're kind of doing that all around the country. It's really cool. Yeah. So they've sold their house. I just talked to a woman last week. They're selling their house out west and they're traveling for I mean so what are they going to do with their stuff? Right. They're going to put it in storage.

It's got to go into storage.

Yeah. And these are all affluent people that are making these choices. It's really interesting. So Chris, you live in Charlotte. You were just talking about the Charlotte MSA with respect to the number of self storage facilities there. What markets are you currently focused on when you're underwriting deals that you're looking at?

We'll look anywhere that's a good growing market in select states. So for example in North Carolina we'll look in Charlotte, I'll look in Winston Salem, Greensboro, select parts of that area that submarket those Raleigh of course we're looking in South Carolina, Florida, Texas, Arizona, Colorado and obviously in Georgia and Tennessee. We just from Knoxville and we were looking at a deal out there this week. So those states good growing markets within those states. Let's say for example we're looking at a deal in Houston, Texas. It doesn't have to be in the msa. Right. It doesn't have to be within Houston. Could be in a nice submarket of Houston and that's where this deal is located. So that's totally fine with us as long as there's growth there. As long as incomes can support storage. Of course. And I don't be chasing rents. We just closed on one at March 1st of this year. Average household income let's just call it close to $100,000 within three mile of that facility. Yeah. Median is you know I forgot what the number is exactly but they're pretty close together. Facility is 100% occupied as far as the units are concerned and we have a ton of boat and RV out there. If you drive out there you'll see like you know 300 the $200,000 parked there in the covered that's another thing that also drives some of the storage is the parking as well. But there at that location we don't change. Everybody pays on time. They take care of their business. They're financially strong. Of course those are the kind of markets we're looking in now can we take it's not doing so well and probably beat the other competitors around us even if it's not in a quite as a desirable submarket or demographic. Yeah but I would rather put my in something like what we just closed in March but also means it's competitive so people like I talked to some group yesterday they were just wanting to get some input what not their hair local in Charlotte on stores they had some land they're going to develop and probably do some storage there. And that's great. But I said to them like there's no new mousetrap in this business. Right. Nobody's like found this golden thing, the fountain of youth when it comes to real estate investing or this anomaly that we're going to make a ton of money or whatever. Everybody else is looking in good markets, everybody else is competing for the same deals for the most part. So you have to get creative on the financing and improve on the management side of things. So you're paying high dollar in some cases these locations you're competing with REITs and others where they're looking at those large three story deals and whatnot. There's no new mousetrap. So we're looking in some of the markets that the other smart guys are looking in as well and competing against them. So that's where we are, that's where we're at.

Yeah. And just like the deal we just closed right before the show aired in Orlando, it's the relationships that come into it and how you find it. So I get that. So what characteristics are you looking for in your deals today, Chris?

Yeah, if we can get to at least a minimum 30, around to 40,000 square feet existing, that's where we want to be. If we can, if we can expand that and you know, make it 60,000 total or something like that, that's great. Extra land. But it doesn't have to because we think we can improve on the operations of the facility. Typically if it's a mom and pop, they aren't doing tenant insurance, they aren't charging late fees, they aren't doing admin fees, some of those things. And that extra income can kind of make or break a deal. Sometimes that including that with the debt financing and how that looks. So that's what we try to look for. We want to be in good markets where there's population growth. I won't go to a market or submarket, there's decline. But at the same time, sometimes you might look at a deal and in a 1 mile there's population decline. In a 3 mile, when I say 1 or 3 mile, I mean as the crow flies like a radius around the facility. So if I got to 3 miles there's a population increase and then miles is an increase as well. But what happened in the 1 mile, maybe it was because they didn't put in new housing, they put in a big retail shopping center or they did Something else. So just because it shows decline in the data, you have to kind of dig in and figure out, well, why is there decline in the market? Is it because of something like that? Rather than rooftops going in, they put in a retail thing or distribution warehouse thing or you know, Amazon or whatever. So. But we want to be in general obviously in a growing, with population growth, with decent incomes in growing around those states I mentioned.

Yeah, tons of overlap with what we do on the multifamily side.

Yeah, exactly. Tons of like we want a diverse economy, you know, because we want people moving in and out, we want people coming there because like we just talked about earlier, that movement of people drive some of the demand for self storage.

Absolutely. No, I love, I love that. It definitely resonates, especially with some of the investors we work with. They understand that. And you talk through some of the areas, how you add value, talk about the technology today and what we see. I've seen some of the self storage facilities around here and there's like a kiosk, there's nobody there. There's very minimal staffing. What are we seeing and how has the pandemic pushed some of these technological changes?

Yeah, that's a good point because the pandemic has pushed operators to say, hey, how can we run the utilities with minimal staffing? In some cases, no staffing on site. Before pre pandemic there was this big debate and it kind of still is within the store industry, if anybody's been around or kind of paid attention to it at all, there's always like a technology piece at any of the conferences you go to or maybe some podcasts that you listen to. And it's like, hey, how do we help the on site manager? This is pre pandemic. We have an on site manager. We pay them 40, 50,000 a year and they're there full time. We might have one part time person to kind of relief, you know, bring some relief to that full time person on site. Those two people might be responsible for 400 units, you know, so that's a different thing in multin compared to multifamily. In that case, with 400 units, you might need three or four people on site. So yeah, completely different. But in storage you don't need as many. So it was a way kiosks and all that. You know, we see them with the red box or the DVDs and Blu Rays you can rent when you go to the grocery store anywhere else, I mean the airport, you know, whatnot. I just flew back in from Knoxville there's nobody there. Take it giving you change. It's all just, you know, push button thing. So. Absolutely. It's kind of, it's has infiltrated the self storage space and it has been for quite some time. Tech does kiosks, they've been around for quite some time. There's a few others that do them and have rolled them out. IPads have gotten so good now that you can actually just use an iPad and it's cheap and just have it sitting there at the office when somebody walks in the door. Yeah, so that was pre pandemic. How can we help the manager on site? We pay them a full time salary, but we supplement with some technology. Maybe we might get it a little bit more fancy with some automated locking doors and whatnot and all this other stuff, which is great. During the pandemic, obviously we couldn't have people on site, you know, nobody. I didn't want to walk in and talk to somebody. I wanted to just go rent a unit or want to go to the store. Go ahead.

Yeah, so stop, stop right there. So you, you didn't have anybody on site during the pandemic, is that what.

No, I'm saying, I'm saying operators in general just in.

Okay. Oh, I got you.

Okay. Just in general. So public storages and just different ones said okay, we need our managers off site because of different, obviously the shutdowns and all that stuff. We got to still rent units.

Right.

Because life slowed down but it didn't stop. And some people need space. So how do we do that? Well, we have a call center. Well, we then go online, you know, that sort of thing. And then some operators realized actually, you know what, coming out of the pandemic, we actually don't need anybody on site full time. Like we don't have to have that. We can actually have one person oversee two locations, you know, or something like that, and spread that person around. So back when I started at within storage, this is 2016 or so, we were doing everything manned in some, some ways. We had like a lot, a little bit more technology than you really needed, I think. So you can kind of go nuts with, with like automated locks and all this other stuff, but you don't have to have it. So at the facility we just closed in March, for example, there's no one on site. There never will be anyone on site. I don't want anybody on site. If you pull up, there's a sign, whoops. There's a sign that has our name of it facility and a QR Code you want to rent, you can scan that code. Take it right on your phone. Yeah, exactly. Your phone is now the kiosk.

And I love this. Like, if. And if you're listening, you're probably thinking, yeah, I get that. Because we have our Airbnb, everything's done remotely. You come up, you put. Punch your code in, you enter, you never have to interact. These, like the storage centers that we're now implementing in our multifamily properties. You go in, there's a camera, you get your code, you get your box. People are like, well, hey, is this safe? Like, do I want my stuff sitting there? It's really safe because you have facial recognition now a lot of times, and you got to be pretty ballsy to go in there and take something and think that you're not going to get caught because you have to have a code to enter so they know who it is that enters. I heard a great. Sorry to pause here, but I heard a great analogy talking about how there's less crime with Uber versus cabs because you can track where everyone is, the driver and everything. So it actually drives crime down. So it's one of those things. It's kind of like a Freakonomics thought process where even though there's less people involved, it's actually more secure in a lot of ways.

Yeah, that's absolutely great. I love that. So with storage, there's always things that can go wrong with technology. It's just not perfect. We've had people locked behind the gate, nobody's on site. So what do you do? Well, you can always. On the gate, there's a little latch you can. Can flip and the gate. But anyway, so there's things that can go wrong, of course, but is it worth paying someone 70,000 a year to have them on site to kind of that one thing that goes wrong? Not really. You know, I mean, if you think about on a dollar per dollar basis, if I lose one customer because they got mad about something, is that still worth it off of having someone on site full time? No, it's not. Anyway, so that's a way to do it. And it's still like 10, you know, having no one on site. I've talked to other developers and asked them this very question, you know, what do you think about the unmanned operations, et cetera? And I've had them tell me, you know, you can never run a location as good without a person on site as you could with a person on site. I will never, you know, and they go on and on and on it's like, hey, that's great. I just want to know a person's opinion. But if you ever heard that quote, if you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.

Right? Yeah.

So for you, you can't. That's your thing. Like we're going to run our stuff unmanned as far as possible. Sometimes it gets a little difficult when you have like maybe a redevelopment. We were talking to our property manager and he said, look, you have a redevelopment of like a hotel and turn it into storage. There's all these nooks and crannies and it's really hard to direct people and direct traffic to find their unit. So we won't do that kind of thing. But storage is simple. If it's a simple thing with drive up and even three story and simple ways and all that, you don't need like people on site to go show a unit and all that.

Well, what's interesting, I spent 18 years in the medical device space and pre pandemic, I'm sitting there in the hospital, it was actually in Greensboro and they were putting up these little things on the wall and I was like, I stopped the guy and I said, hey, you look like your typical tech guy. He had his phone holster and his shirt's all wrinkled. And I was like, hey. I was like, what are you doing? And it was an internal GPS for the hospital. So now they have an app in the hospital. So when you come in, you download the app and, and you know exactly where you are and it guides you, you know, like a little, like a little mini Google Maps inside the hospital. So as that technology improves, you're not even going to need these people to kind of direct, you know, around that site. It's pretty wild how that works. So Chris, talk a little bit about sin.

Oh, the SIN Summit. Yeah, I know, that's so funny.

This is in Vegas. Where is this?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Storage Investor Nation Summit. We're going to have one coming up likely in October. We haven't locked down the dates just yet, but likely in October. We just had one. We had a good lineup of speakers. We hope to do even better than obviously the April one. The April one was our first one ever, so we had probably, I think it was like 25 so plus speakers, industry veterans, data providers, brokers, management folks, so other acquisitions and development people. So the one in October should be really exciting. We hope to do a lot better and provide a ton of value. Usually it's a two or three day event. We're not sure if we're gonna do three days this or kind of condense everything into two days, but we'll see how that goes. But we also do weekly webinars, Storage Investor Nation webinars and we put our information on that for the Storage Investor Nation summit. So if you want to find out more, they can always visit Storage Investor Nation and find out more about our summits, the summit and our weekly webinars.

Outstanding. And yeah, if you're listening, you're probably a subscriber to the Next Level Income show. If you're not, go to our website, nextlevelincome.com make sure you subscribe. You'll get updates on the Self Storage Summit, the Sin Summit that's coming up. And then Chris, we really appreciate you being on the show today talking about a lot of the things that our audience has become accustomed to in terms of why self storage is going to be such a terrific space not only today but also going forward. Before we let you go today, we always ask our guests if you can go back to your 25 year old self and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

I would think connect with other investors at that time. So sometimes you don't know what you don't know. And when I was doing real estate, all I saw was the foreclosure side of the business. I didn't know I'd remember reading Robert Kiyosaki's book, but that was like around 2009 or so, something like that. So it was a little bit later. Still didn't quite grasp the concept of investing in rental properties and the opportunity that was in front of me at that time. So I would have probably, if I can go back now, I would definitely say, hey, go find other investors who are doing this very thing and buy everything you possibly. Everything. Yeah.

Fully leveraged. No, I love it. And hey listen, your story was you living that when you were talking about going to that meetup and meeting Dan. And here we are today having this conversation as you guys are now partners and we're looking at some deals coming up. So Chris, thank you so much for being on the show today. If people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to find out?

They can shoot me an email. Chris K R I s@ passiveinvesting.com we.

Love Chris's around here. So we appreciate you being on the show today, Chris. And check out Chris's upcoming blog on our website if you haven't been there. Nextlevelincome.com thanks for being on today.

Thank you Chris. Appreciate it.

Hey Chris, here again. I hope you found this episode valuable. Now I have one more thing to gift you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also, please like share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on Apple Podcasts.