Nobody Wants to Work? Your Leadership Might Be the Problem

As companies scale, the habits that got them here often end up being the bottlenecks that stop them from going further.

It's culture drift, Josh. Those same leadership habits that drove early success can quietly create bottlenecks and friction.

Exactly. We call that paying the invisible tax on scaling, and frankly, no one wants to pay it.

No. And by bridging the gap between human behavior and operational discipline, we help you cancel that invisible tax.

We equip teams with the diagnostic playbooks they need to eliminate conflict, hold teams accountable, and build a business that thrives with or without you in the room.

Because kindness without clarity is just expensive avoidance.

If you're ready to stop paying the invisible tax, head over to businessfixpodcast.com and let's get your business moving forward. Today we are ready to talk about how you are the problem. Not, not you.

Not me.

Them.

Them.

Them. Okay. Them out there. Sometimes we're, sometimes we're the problem, but We've heard the nobody wants to work anymore, and it is like when I say that, you instantly think—

For you.

Correct. We're gonna help you fix that. Stay tuned. She's the CEO.

He's the marketing and operations guy.

If it's broken, you need The Business Fix. There is always Always, always, always a labor shortage. Even when unemployment is high.

Always.

There is a labor shortage. I always like it when you find someone where there's, I mean, super high unemployment, we just can't find good people.

Uh-huh. There's usually a reason.

Right, 'cause they're hiding from you.

Generally. Generally. Or it's a really, it's a job nobody wants. Literally nobody wants. to do. But that's— I mean, rarely is that the case.

What I find so funny about that is that, like, there are people that drive trucks that pump out septic tanks.

Yes.

And yet you can't find someone to work in your office.

Yep. There are people that have jobs that literally shorten their lifespan, and yet you can't find someone.

Right. So to me, I look at this like, that's some of the things that make me take the Nobody wants to work anymore with a grain of salt.

Yes.

Yeah, there's people that are inhaling coal dust.

Yes.

No problem.

This is a problem we haven't solved yet. Right.

It's not—

this is a solvable, most likely a solvable problem. You may not like how to solve it, but it's solvable.

Therein, therein is that clarity is kindness.

Yeah.

And that was very kindly put because I— people can probably come up with their way that I would've said that and it would've been much, much less friendly.

A little more direct.

But yeah, you go to any networking group, chamber meeting, online forum, 5 minutes, like less than 5 minutes in, you're gonna hear that no one wants to work anymore. We are gonna call the BS on that narrative.

Yeah.

Great talent is out there. Amazing talent's out there. They just, Are hiding from you.

Yeah, absolutely.

And to me, there's, there's so many reasons why I love on this. So when you hear owners crying, nobody wants to work.

Yeah.

From the HR, from the CEO perspective, why is that phrase first off? Like, I don't want to say I judge people instantly when I hear it. But I kind of do. Yeah. Let's not cover this up. It's like, why is that phrase the ultimate indicator of some leadership delusions? Like, like, and what are candidates running away from that make it— make people— make business owners, make managers, make HR feel like no one wants to work?

Yeah. So I think the phrase nobody wants to work anymore tells us more about the employer than it does about the employee.

Ooh, that's—

And it was direct, but it's true.

It's, it's one of those things that's painful to hear, but you need to hear it.

Well, it's not like we haven't dealt with this either personally. I mean—

No. Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

I mean, this, like, I hate to say this, but I'm going to make it, you know how I love analogies. This is the bathroom scale.

Yes. Yes, it is.

This is, this is the bathroom scale for your business.

Yeah. I mean, because people, good people are working and you may have good team members that are working for you. You just may not be able to find more. So let's talk about that. I think that high performers absolutely have jobs right now. They're just choosing carefully, and I think that's what a lot of owners, business leaders, managers don't want to hear. It's not always a labor shortage. I think a lot of times it's really a leadership shortage. So top talent exists, top talent can move, but top talent has options. And so if you're only attracting low-quality candidates, those desperate candidates or the people who disappear halfway through the process, your workplace may be acting as a negative filter because your offer, reputation, culture may also be filtering people out. So let's go back to something that we've talked about a lot on this podcast, Josh. Let's talk about the 3 C's of leadership.

Oh, we have mentioned these before.

We have, a few times, a few times. And this is where, especially in this, when you're answering this question, like nobody wants to work anymore, this is where clarity, consistency, and care matter. Because clarity means the role is real and understandable. It's not a position that is really built for 10 people or one person who can do all 10 things perfectly, including being emotional support for the owner. So, we've got to be really clear about what is the role that we actually want to fill, all right?

So, it shouldn't have and therapist?

No. Being emotional support for the owner and those 10 other things, that's not a role. So, if we want people to work here, we need to make sure we have a defined role and the role makes logical sense and it is based in reality. So, clarity first.

Based in reality.

In reality. It's not the Frankenjob. It's not the wishful thinking unicorn hunter. I mean, you can still be a unicorn hunter if you really want to, to be, just know it's gonna take a really long time. And every time you say somebody doesn't wanna work anymore, your unicorn falls away in the distance. It's like you kill another one. So just don't.

Just looking for Bigfoot.

Yeah, be clear in your role. And then consistency means the expectations match the pay, interview matches job, and the process reflects the culture that you claim to have, right? Do what you say and say what you do over and over and over And over and over and over. Consistency. So we got clarity, we're going to describe the job. I like that one. Consistency, we're going to show up, we're going to be the people that we said we were going to be in the interview process. And then care means you're paying attention to the reality that people are living in. And so we've talked about posting the range on your jobs. Here's the other piece. I mean, you can't pay 2018 wages in a 2026 economy and expect 110% delegation and dedication. They're not going to do it.

No.

No. 2018 wages is not 2026 wages.

They are, just for a different position.

I mean, people know what things cost. People know what their childcare, what their groceries, what their housing, all those things cost. So when employers act shocked that candidates care about compensation, I mean, that's not a candidate problem. So the other piece of care is respect. So if your hiring process— this is speaking more to process, and I'm sure you'll talk about it too— if it takes 3 weeks to review a resume and 5 rounds of chaotic interviews and maybe I'll call them back. We don't really communicate clearly. And then we silence the employee. Like, there's no communication in between any of those moments. You're teaching candidates that working for you, that's how it's going to feel like. They feel alone on an island while they're being interviewed and going through the candidate process. Well, congratulations. You're going to be alone on an island when you get hired.

It's like getting ghosted by a date.

It is. It is.

And then they call you the night that they're desperate. Yes.

Yes.

And even if that's not how it worked, that's how it— That's how it felt.

Yeah. Yes, and so candidates aren't running away from that work. They're running away from unclear roles, chaotic leadership, and workplaces that want loyalty before they have earned trust. I mean, people do want to work where there's clarity about the role, consistency in how they're led, and care in how they're treated. So if we lead with clarity, consistency, and care in our hiring process, in our onboarding process, we're going to continue to find people that want to work.

We've all sat through those keynotes.

The ones where everyone nods, feels great for an hour.

And then leaves without a single tool that they can actually use on Monday morning.

It feels good in the room, but it doesn't fix the bottleneck, the culture drift, or the manager who's afraid to have a hard conversation.

That is why we created The Business Fix Live, you know that we aren't interested in empty motivation at all.

No, we bring the practical side of leadership. Josh handles the operations and accountability, and I handle the culture and the people stuff.

Whether you need a keynote for your summit or a deep dive workshop for your managers, we help you stop avoiding the real issues. We give your team frameworks to stop the chaos and start the growth.

So if you're ready for speakers who actually deliver results, Head over to businessfixpodcast.com and book us for your next event.

Let's stop the fluff and start fixing your business. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it seems basic, but it's one of those things that we often miss. I mean, it is. Truly do. It is.

And it's easy to miss because it's easy to get busy and working on and in the business in other ways and you forget, oh, I need to do that. Oh, I should really work on that.

When you hire, it's usually, usually, and this is one of my, one of my comparisons, you're usually busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.

Yes. And you're like, the last thing I want to do is onboard this person. But the most important thing I need to do is onboard this person.

So when you're getting, when you're getting, when you're as the business, when you're getting ghosted, yeah, or zero applications coming in, yeah, or You're like, yeah, we've got a person, we have a warm body, and after 90 days they're gone.

Yes.

Like, what does that reveal about the, like, the employer brand, the pay, the psychological— like, what does that reveal about that culture?

So I'm going to answer that, but I want to give a caveat first, because as I was working through these notes, I had to like— but it doesn't really apply to this one right now. So I'm going to say, for those of you trying to fill a sales job, Which is like 2/3 of the planet.

Yes.

And really where a lot of the nobody wants to work anymore comes from. It is a hard market right now, and it is a hard market in part because culture is changing around sales. And as leaders, we're going to have to figure this out long-term. How sales works in our economy, how that communication works, how that role fits is really starting to change. And what worked before is no longer working. And we're all trying to solve this. Hence why technology around sales is so hot right now. It's why there's so many different AI-driven, like, here, you want to be a salesperson?

I agree.

This is your automated sales agent. It's still not going to work. All right, so that's, we're all trying to figure that out. So give yourself a little grace in that, and let's continue to work on solving that problem. But when it comes to everything else, as it relates to people, back to the question. All right, when I see high candidate ghosting, no application flow, immediate 90-day turnover, I start by looking for the trust gap. Because somewhere in that process, trust is breaking. And sometimes it breaks before the candidate even applies. That's when the job posting is vague, salary's missing, told you before, post the freaking range. The expectations of the job sound unrealistic. So I'm not applying for something that sounds impossible to achieve. So if I look at a job posting and it's telling me all of these different things, it's like, I don't even know if I want to do that job. You're not going to apply for it. No.

No.

So, I mean, and then sometimes too, trust breaks in the hiring process, and that's what we talked about a second ago. Candidate applies and hears nothing for 2 weeks, then the company suddenly wants them. There's a lot of urgency, and you have to follow up quickly. So, when we treat recruiting like a sales process, it's got to be with urgency. So, that's it. I tell you, treat it like a sales process.

Yes.

If someone has interest and they fit, time is of the essence, especially when you know you're in a competitive job market. So it's really about, you know, they hit ding, they hit yes to apply for the job on ZipRecruiter. I mean, get to them within 24 hours. This is the number one priority for your organization is filling this pipeline.

Yes.

All right. The other thing that happens sometimes is a candidate will go through multiple interviews and they get inconsistent information from the people that are interviewing them. And then the employer is shocked when they accept another offer and they're like, well, they showed up to all the interviews. Yeah, but You gave them one piece of information, the recruiter gave them another piece of information, and then the person that was doing the vibe check gave them a whole nother different piece. If you can't consistently explain what a day looks like between 3 different people in your organization, you got a problem.

I have been through that.

Yes. And that, I mean, that too is a slow, respectless hiring loop because no one's on the same page. So, the other thing I would say too about psychological safety is it really does start in the funnel. Of the sales, like not the sales process, but in the recruiting process. So it doesn't start after orientation. How you treat them through the interview process is a preview of how they believe you will treat them as employees. So did you respect their time? Did you communicate clearly? Did you follow up when you said you were going to follow up?

Huge.

That's the biggest one. Well, you know, I got busy and I just didn't send them that confirmation email. No. You would be mad if somebody didn't send you a thank you after the interview.

Yep.

How about you send them a, yes, you're moving on, no, you're not moving on. Did you tell the truth too about the role? Oh, it's this many hours a week, it's this, and then they come in and they're like, no, we expect mandatory overtime. That's a very different question, very different issue. So remember, psychological safety talks about, I know what to expect here when they walk in. So when someone leaves in the first 90 days, I think you need to ask yourself 3 questions. What did we promise? What did they experience? And where was the gap?

Oh, yeah.

What were my expectations? What were their expectations? And then how far apart were we? And chances are, if they're gone within the first 90 days, there was a pretty big gap.

Oh, I mean, yeah. And you've— those are great questions.

Yeah.

Because it says what's broken that we can fix.

It does. I mean, and that takes us back to clarity, consistency, and care through the employee lifecycle. We're solving a lot of our headaches before they start. And we're clear in those roles. And I think too, if the interview promised support and training, and then the reality is confusion and like, here's your manual, go read it, no structure, no clear expectations, that employee is going to know very quickly that the promise didn't match the proof. And that's not a labor market issue. That's an employer brand issue. You did it wrong. It's just simple. You did it wrong. I don't mean it to sound rude, but you did it wrong.

100%.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that's the— that really is. That is the only way to put that. But in this, if we start to realize that, okay, the process is busted, the stuff we're doing is busted, how do you pivot from blaming the labor market to building that culture and pipeline that has people in it that you actually want working for you instead of just, well, they're looking for a job, I guess I'll take them?

Yeah, so it's a CEO trait that most of us don't like to talk about. The first step is humility. So, you know, not shame, not defensiveness, humility. So CEO has to be willing to ask, you know, what are we doing that makes it hard for the right people to say yes?

Mm-hmm.

And really ask that, not nobody wants to work anymore, why can't we find the right people? What are we doing that makes it so hard for the right candidates to say yes to our organization. And then the pivot's really simple. It's stop blaming the labor market and start asking where the business is missing clarity, consistency, and care. So clarity, again, means the role is real, understandable, and honest. People should know what the job is, what success looks like, what it pays, what's hard about it, and what support exists. So we're clear in the role. Consistency means that our experience as a new team member matches the promise, which means the posting, the interview process, the expectations, onboarding, and the first 90 days all tell the same story. Consistency. And then care is respecting the person on the other side of the process. It's not lowering standards. It's communicating honestly, paying attention to market reality, respecting their time, and not setting people up to fail. So then the question becomes, where are we unclear, inconsistent, or careless in the way we hire and lead? And I know that can kind of sound like a little heavy. It is, it is, but it's really how a CEO stops blaming candidates and starts building a workplace where strong people actually want to choose to be there.

That last statement, I truly love that.

Yeah.

Stop blame, be the place where people wanna work.

Yes. Be the change you want to see in the world. If you want people to work here, model what you mandate.

Even if it's just your world.

Yes, just your world. So, it is what it is. All right, Josh, let's talk about operations.

Oh, goody. Yes.

So, if an owner's phone isn't ringing with quality applicants or candidates are ghosting them on day 1, where's the operational friction in their talent machine? How do we Reimagine or re-architect it.

It's funny because as I was thinking about this, I started to look at like the supply and demand trap.

Yeah.

Right now, I mean, there's a heavy demand for performers and the supply isn't as great. Now, 10, 15 years ago, like especially after the financial crisis, things of that nature, there was a different shift. So we're going to like— there is market demands at work here, but that doesn't mean you can use that as an excuse.

No, we're not going to pray for a Great Depression. So, we have more labor on the market. Don't be that jerk for the rest of the world.

Right, right. And the thing is, is top-tier operators, they've got a job. Yeah, they've got a good job.

They used to work for you.

Right. And the problem is, is they aren't just sitting there on their hands waiting for your job posting to smack them in the face.

No, they're usually happy.

Correct. They're happy. They don't have open to work on their LinkedIn profile. So, the demand for true A-players is really high while the supply remains tight. So, if your offer compensation and operational reputation, I have to throw that in there, if they don't match the market realities, then you're out of the game before you even started. Just like, it's like me playing basketball in the NBA. It's just not going to happen.

Yeah, because oftentimes too, if you attract top talent, you know how to retain top talent.

Correct.

They don't want to leave. Correct.

I want to go back to the 1950s here. We'll get in the time machine. Like the 1950s pension plans, lifetime corporate loyalty, like, hey, we give you that, like you scratch my back, I scratch yours. The rigid top-down hierarchy of we just blindly follow.

The lifers.

Right. The single-earner household stability and a gold watch ain't gonna do it no more. No, no one— like most people don't want a gold watch. If you gave Anyone under the age of 40 the option between a Rolex and an Apple Watch, I guarantee probably 85% of them take the Apple Watch.

Yeah.

Because, you know, tech. So what do we need to look at today? Modern performers, they want autonomy, they want clear SOPs, they want personal growth velocity, they want modern tooling. Don't give them your, like, your operation system from 1980 that still runs on a Commodore 64 in the back room.

Mm-hmm.

Don't give them a CNC machine that is like— it would— the plates are stone because they didn't have metal yet. They want market rate pay. They want psychological safety. Now, we've talked psychological safety. This does not mean fluffy rainbows.

No.

This means knowing what's going to happen. They are also— they are not looking for the 30-year sentence. They aren't looking for pizza labeled as great culture. They want an environment where they can build real value without administrative friction, for themselves and in turn the business.

Yeah.

If you're fishing, and the reason why I talk about this, if you're fishing, you need to use the bait for the fish you want to catch. Don't fish with minnows expecting to catch sharks.

Yes.

Everyone's throwing minnows in the ocean and like, I want a shark to work for me. Well, then great. Stop throwing in like a bluegill. Like a shark's not coming after that.

No, most likely not. And if they are, I mean, really good job. Like, it happens once in a million. So you really want to be that one in a million, or do you want to up your chances?

Correct. Yeah. And that's the, the huge thing about it is if you are fishing with bluegill, you're going to get a baby shark. And now everyone has that song in their head. You're welcome. The last thing I want to say about this, additionally, people do not want to feel like a hostage. I know a few people that are part of like the STRS, Yes.

I hate my job, but I'm here. I can't leave. Yes. I know a lot of people like that.

Yeah.

And they're like, mid-level management. I have stock options. I can't go anywhere.

I've got 15 years in, can't leave. And I'm like, oh gosh, that's not a good way to feel either. Because once again, people like, well, it keeps people in the job, right? People that don't want to be there.

Don't want to be there.

Right.

It's not even no one wants to work anymore. They're not, but they're still there. That's a different problem.

So what we're going to do, like, to fix some of this too, is my part B of this is pipeline speed. I love it when someone puts, we have a fast-paced environment, and they don't respond to the want, to the, to the ad for 3 weeks.

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

I see it all the time. Must thrive in a fast-paced environment in their job post. And then it's 2 to 3 weeks to respond to a qualified candidate. What's the problem?

Yeah.

Holy cow. If you see, like, we've all been there where you see a candidate comes in And you see their resume and you like the champagne starts raining down from the heavens. You hear the hallelujah from the angels. Much better than that, obviously. Why are you saying, well, I'm going to leave this ad open for 3 weeks? Just email them. Oh my God, why are you waiting? Because I tell you what, they've probably— like, if they're that good, they've got other people getting offers to giving them offers to get in first.

Well, and this is where I will say to the HR people, this is sometimes where they get mad at me and I really do not care. Their priorities are sometimes different than my priorities. And so it's one of those where they're like, what do you mean you're reviewing resumes all the time? Like, look, this is important. And if you can't call them back that fast, I will. I will leapfrog over for recruiting. Yep.

Here's my question for you.

Yes.

If there is a $50,000 sales lead that comes in, are you calling them the next day?

No. Immediately.

Correct.

Immediately we're responding in some way. Email, text message, phone, maybe all 3.

Correct. Why aren't you treating your applicants like this?

Exactly.

Like, like that person, especially over the lifetime, is worth a hell of a lot more than $50,000.

Absolutely.

Even if it's an entry-level position, respond quickly. The other thing that I want to say too is if your application process requires uploading a resume and then retyping the same exact data into 20 manual formula fields on a clunky portal, that you are act— you are— that right there is actively filtering out top people because they see that and they're like, if their intake process is this terrible, I can only imagine what daily life is like.

Yes. And don't act like you're one of those companies that's so special you do it on purpose. There are only a couple. There's like a handful that get to say that. You're not one of them. I promise. If you're listening to our podcast, you're not one of them.

100%. The other thing I always tell people, apply for your job once. See how—

See how long it takes.

See how long it takes.

Yeah.

Go in like you check everything else in your business.

Yes.

Why aren't you going to go apply for your own job and see how maddening it is?

Yeah. See if you can chop it.

Yeah. Would I apply here?

Yeah.

And the problem is—

Or if you have a college student, make them apply.

Yeah. And watch them. But to me, the other thing is at the end of it, you have to, you have to, would I apply here? And you know how wonderful you are.

But if I would want to go through our process, why would I?

Correct.

So true.

Correct. Correct. Your process should be thorough. I am 10,000% plus good with that. It shouldn't feel pointless. Moving on to Part C about this, making people welcome. Stop the dump truck onboarding.

Yeah.

I mean, I have been like, we talked like, I, my career path has been—

It's different than mine.

Varied. I believe that is the polite way to put it. Everyone talks about, we've got this great training program, and 9 times out of 10, it is you sitting in front of a computer. And I'm like, what the hell is this? If the new hire shows up, sits in a room, and the company backs up a dump truck full of 40 hours of outdated compliance videos where you know it was filmed in the '80s, where Bob says something inappropriate to Harriet, and you've got to decide if that's, if that's right.

Yes.

Like, this is— they're gonna leave no matter what. Yeah, I had another place. My first week was Zoom meetings with every other employee in the company just so I got to know people. Okay, like half an hour. Hey, so what do you do? So I literally had 40 Zoom meetings.

Which is fine if you're an extrovert. I mean, even if you are, it's just— that's exhausting.

And like, I spent 40 times saying the same thing. Hi, I'm Josh. I like motorcycles. and talking into microphones. I had to say that 40 times, and I'm like, I hate myself after this.

No, if you're the CEO, that's different, but otherwise, no, that's not—

Correct. Day 1 onboarding should be active, structured, and welcoming. Anchor things in— oh my God, real SOPs! Huh, what a concept. Um, maybe some short Loom walkthroughs. I'm okay with some of those. Clear day 1 expectations, day 2 expectations, day 10 expectations, day 90 expectations. And how about some hands-on execution on real tasks so they can build confidence instead of buyer's remorse? Yes.

And if there are things that you have to check a box with and they're boring in the training, like just tell them, hey, I know you're not going to like having to sit through this 4-hour training, but before we're allowed to touch any of our systems, You have to do this. So we know it's a pain. We're going to come check on you because you got to sit in this windowless room and do this. We're really sorry, but we didn't create these rules. The federal government did. That's what we do with our first piece of onboarding. And we're like, sorry.

And the honesty is there.

We're going to tell you right now, we're really excited you're here. Welcome. Here's the tour. Here's where everything is. We have to put you in a windowless room until you pass this test.

Right.

Because you can't touch or see anything until this is done. Right.

Here's a pillow and a blankie and some warm milk.

Pretty much. Please pass. You may use the bathroom, you may come out and take breaks, but really, until you can do anything else, you can't see or touch anything.

But you set that expectation.

We do.

And once again, when, like, I'm walking into a shitstorm, I want to know which way the wind's blowing. If I know to have my umbrella to the west and stuff comes from the west, I'm okay with that.

Well, and it's okay to tell, like, as you're going through the hiring process and you're going through the training process, stop lying to people and telling them everything here is perfect. It's not. It's a work environment. There are some things that are great, and there are some things that are not so great. Just be honest about it.

The Big Summit is just around the corner.

And if you're still wrestling with that nobody wants to work anymore narrative, it's time to stop complaining and start fixing.

We're taking the floor at 10:15 on October 15th to break down the real strategies for building a culture that actually works. We don't just want to see you there.

We want to help you shift your perspective. So join us in Cleveland and get the tools you need to stop managing by hope and start leading with clarity.

Grab your tickets today at cose.org and use the code TROCHE26 at checkout for your attendee discount.

And we'll see you at the big summit.

Last piece I want to talk about it. You've, you've got them. You've got the shark in the boat.

Yeah.

They are in the boat.

Don't club them to death. Right.

They have made it past the couple— like, they're in the live well. You've got them. You're pretty sure we're in good shape. There's a couple of things that, like, in order to create a workplace that people actually want to work in— like, I'm going to go straight for the jugular here. Pay. Pay the people. Pay is never an afterthought, or pay should never be a reward for surviving 5 years. I've worked a number of places that said, we're going to start you here and we'll move you to here. They never moved me to here.

No. Ever.

Not once. And so to me, and then this is why people are like, we'll never go for that ever again. We've lied to them for 20 years and finally they've wised up and they're like, no, I'm not doing that anymore. If your pay bands are anchored to 2018 numbers, you aren't paying competitive wages, you are subsidizing operational costs.

Yes.

And so, whatever you saved in salary, you have now paid double or triple in terms of rework, in terms of operational debt, in terms of all those other things.

Because they don't stay.

No.

They may say yes to the moment, but they are paying— they never took open to work off of the back of their resume.

No.

They're still on ZipRecruiter.

If they don't— if they do take it, you are going to get exactly the effort that you're paying for. If you pay the minimum amount, you're going to get exactly that effort from them. The other thing that I want to talk about is psychological safety as an operating— operational system here. High performers do not fear hard work. Most of them love it. They don't fear accountability. They— what they do fear is the moving goalposts, the arbitrary leadership, and being blamed for broken systems.

Yeah.

That 100%, like operational safety, psychological safety from my aspect of it, Means clear SOPs, well-defined goals, predictable leadership. Imagine that. Transparent metrics and the freedom to point out process flaws without fear of retaliation. Yes, that's psychological safety. It's not fluffy unicorns.

No. And if you hired them for specific expertise, you can't get mad at them when they use it to ask you a question.

100%. 100%. Something else. Functional tooling and hoop-free procedures over shiny trinkets. Modern operators, like, I don't want overpriced trinkets. I don't need shiny new software apps. Don't bring me 10 new pieces of software each week. I don't want high-end gizmos just for show. I want stuff that works.

Yes.

Give me the machines and the software that is proven to work. It's why, like, on the podcasting side of our business, we are not that leading edge. We're just behind it.

Yes.

I want stuff that I know is going to work reliably day in and day out. The last thing with the 2 last things that I want to talk about with that, a clear career path. Look, you hire someone and there might be one career path and it may change because once again, you like, as with any relationship, people change with time. Like their experience changes with time. Your knowledge of them changes with time. But if I feel trapped in a seat, yes, I'm looking because the only way to get that promotion is to leave. Most places where I left, it was because of A, bad bosses, and B, I had nowhere to go and nothing to do. So if there's a trajectory and once again, not everyone's a leader, so don't think that this is leading their department.

No.

What it could be is it could be a more technical move in a different department.

Yes.

That's a promotion, 100%. It doesn't need to be a leadership role.

Well, and I would say, be honest about, you know, we know that people on average change every 2, 3 to 5 years. So you don't need to tell them what 30 years at your company looks like. You can tell them what 3 to 5 looks like.

No, it scares the hell out of them.

It does. But the other part, like, you don't even know what it's gonna look like. So stop lying to yourself when you're like, this is what 30 years Like, whatever. So this is what, like, and as entrepreneurs, come on, half of us can barely get to like 6 months ahead. So like, tell them what 2 to 3 years looks like. This is what our trajectory is. This is the direction that we're growing. You know, we may not completely know what's going to happen, but we do know that these are 4 things that we're always going to make sure that we do with our employees. Part of them is around training. Part of them is around, you know, career pathing. And here's where you could go. But know that But we're a small business and things could change. But just be realistic.

That seems around mission and values.

Doesn't it? And clarity, consistency, and care. Just tell people. And if you don't know, be honest. Because there are some people that would love to work for people that are just honest and say, you know, this is where I think we're going, but I'm not sure. It could completely change. We're a startup. Tell people you're a startup if you're a startup. Don't lie to them. It gets really old really fast.

So let's talk about the operational purpose and path here. Hard work made achievable is awesome. High performers, they want hard, meaningful challenges.

Yes.

They do not want fluff. They do not want babysitting. Give them difficult, complex problems to solve, and they will love you for it. But actively do everything in your power to make execution easier by removing friction, broken tools, and administrative bloat. I see it in so many cases where high performers are working and administrative is like, hey, we're going to do this also. And suddenly it's— I mean, it throws a huge wrench in what they're doing and it makes them go backwards. If you can show that, hey, we need to do this because it creates an issue that's bigger down the line, most high performers will accept that.

Just explain it.

Just explain it. Don't just be like, hey, you need to do the thing now. You need to do 20 minutes more work every hour because they're— no. The other thing is show them a reason to work. Give them a clear documented path forward. People don't just want a job. They want an environment where their work drives clear progress and personal growth. Help them learn. If they feel like they're growing, awesome. The last thing that I want to talk about, kill the they're lucky to have work mentality. I have worked for so many people that, well, they're lucky to have a job. No, no, they're not. Because the thing that I love is the same people that say they're lucky to have a job Says no one wants to work. And like, it's all like, which one is it? These are contradictory statements.

Exactly.

You, you can't. So don't be the arrogant owner who acts like employees should be bowing down for a paycheck. Like, don't hand me— don't smugly hand me my paycheck and be like, you're lucky to get this this week. No, that mindset sends your absolute top talent sprinting.

Yeah.

For competitors who are going to be like, come on in.

Yeah. Why doesn't anybody want to stay here? You're going to stop saying nobody wants to work here, work anymore, to like, why isn't anybody staying?

Yeah.

Because you're being a jerk.

Arrogance repels A-players. Operational support and high expectations retain them. It truly is. Guess who you're left with once your high performers have left?

Besides you.

The nobody wants to work here anymore people.

Yeah.

This is an interesting point that I wanted us both to talk about, the wage versus value debate. We hear this all the time. Is the labor issue really about money, or are candidates rejecting bad management, lack of autonomy, like toxic flex— like, what's the issue? Is it wages, or is it jerks?

Well, I think leaders get into trouble when we make it an either/or.

I agree.

Because it is about money. And it is about management. And really, it's about whether the employee believes the company is telling the truth.

Oh, that's beautifully put.

Yeah. Pay is the first credibility test. But I mean, what am I walking into is the next one. So, like, they're programming partners.

Yeah. Pay, to me, pay gets them in the door. Systems and cultures keep them there and keep them working hard for you. That's, I mean, if you pay top dollar but run the shit show circus, guess what? You're going to end up with highly paid, miserable employees who once again still haven't taken down open to work out of their LinkedIn. What about the candidate ghosting versus employer ghosting? Like, and I love how dating terms have worked their way into like job hunting because, I mean, once again, there's so many parallels to this.

Yeah.

That first date is an interview no matter what you think.

Yeah.

It truly is. So, like, to me, owners complain constantly about candidates ghosting interviews. But then once again, are companies ghosting applicants? You know? Yeah.

I mean, I don't love ghosting from either side.

No, at all.

I mean, but I do think employers need to be careful about acting shocked by behavior they help normalize because most of the— like, you did it, employers. We did it because for years candidates have applied into black holes.

Yes.

They sent resumes, they prepared for interviews, and they heard nothing. So, I mean, that's the problem. That's, I think, we— it's a created thing. So, now you got no closure, no update, no thank you, we're moving in another direction, just like, hey, I interviewed, or, hey, I sent my resume, hey, I sent— nothing.

What I found interesting about that is HR for so long used the excuse of, well, what if we tell them something, it could be used against us.

We're picking another candidate, or, you didn't— you're not qualified for— no, you're not. No is okay.

Right.

Yeah.

And I found it so interesting because to me it is just a low-respect hiring system. I mean, once again, the problem is, is the person that isn't the fit for today's job may be, may be the fit for the job that you have in 6 months.

Exactly. And you want people who were potentially a culture fit but weren't a skill fit for the specific job you were looking at reapplying. So if you talk to them and say, hey, you're not a fit right now, but we would love for you to apply later, Yeah.

Have you seen the unicorn postings where it's like, hey, we want someone that does marketing, sales, accounting, operations, and can clean the toilets?

Yes.

Yes.

I see them all the time.

So do I. So do I. I love searching job ads just for this reason because I'm like, oh, wow.

Yeah. Rockstar ninja. We want a rockstar ninja.

The rockstar ninja unicorn.

Yes. That tells me the business doesn't know what they need.

No.

It sounds fun and scrappy, like, yeah, we're really entrepreneurial, we need all of these things, we need you to be this— really, company has no clarity.

Right. No, it's not flexibility.

No.

Um, I like when I see wears many hats, it's code for we do not have one documented SOP in the entire building, and we expect you to save us from all of our operational debt.

Yes, in your first 30 days, you are either going to be crying or you're going to be running, one or the other.

You're just going to add one more thing to the resume here. That's, that's all, that's all you're going to have. Uh, for me, key takeaways, some actionable stuff today: audit your hiring bait, look at your compensation and roll benefits through the lens of modern talent, stop fishing for sharks using minnows from the 1950s.

Yeah, clarity, consistency, and care in your hiring and onboarding process. So I'd say, you know, we're going to take a look in the mirror and ask ourselves, are we really modeling what we want to see from our team members? Ghosters get ghosted. Unclear expectations equals unclear outcomes. So clarity, consistency, and care in your hiring and onboarding.

You got less than 24 hours. Treat top applicants with the exact same urgency as a high-value sales lead. Because it is.

Yes, I'm going to reinforce your hiring bait and say audit your pay against current reality, right? Benchmark your salaries against the current market data, all right? Not what you paid 4 years ago. Pay fairly, adjust and reduce the operational scope of the role, and post the freaking range of salary.

I want to dip to that.

Yes.

What's interesting about that is I just got a notification of the from the county, my property tax is going up because my property value went up.

Yes.

And I am like—

No one asked me.

Right. And I'm like, but I looked at it and I'm like, what the hell is this? So I went online and I looked at— I'm like, there's no way. I am going to write a strongly worded letter to the auditor's office and be like, you need to undo this. And then I looked at comparable values in the neighborhood and I'm like, damn it. Yeah.

Same.

So do the same thing when you go to pay people. Lastly, kill Kill the dump truck video onboarding.

Yes.

Don't put people in front of the computer. I mean, unless you have to for regulatory reasons. Like human connect, like, like—

Don't make that the first thing. At least say hi to people.

Right.

Yes.

Have them connect with a human in your company as much as you can, other than just parading them around the office like a new unicorn. Just doesn't work. Should you ever rehire an employee Somebody who quit and wants to come back, the old boomerang?

Do not mistake familiarity as a shortcut for fit. So, it is rare that you rehire, only if you're clear on why and how they left and what has changed, and that person was never a culture killer. If they were a culture killer, don't even think about it.

So, I mean, good terms and they fit operational terms.

Absolutely.

If they say, hey, I want to come back, and you're hiring for their job, Then there's a chance, but otherwise, no.

Another thing I would say too is if they completely left your industry to do something else and they realized they didn't want to do that, they want to come back. That to me is an easy one. But if they left you to go to a competitor and they blew everything up on the way out, don't rehire them. Because we're just going to have an HR conversation later on. You're gonna have to call in a consultant and we're gonna have to undo the mess.

Cover letters.

Yep.

Still do them?

They're mostly outdated. Unless you make the ask specific and useful, which is, I know for a lot of people right now is really challenging because I'm having people that are in the market that are for higher-level jobs getting really frustrated because they're like, I have to rewrite my resume every time I'm applying for a job. I'm like, yeah, for C-level positions you have to. Yeah. So no, don't do it. If you're, if you're talking entry-level, mid-market, if anything, friend people on LinkedIn or send a message.

Yes, I see that. The other thing that I would say is I am perfectly happy to ask 2 or 3 very specific questions. that you can have. If you want to see how they write, then put that. Yeah, I mean, I'm okay with that type of work, but don't, don't give them the, hey, we'd love to see your cover letter, because once again, all that is going to be is them slathering on ChapStick and puckering up.

Yeah, it's just a round file. You don't need to deal with it.

No, no. Uh, single worst phrase or red flag that you can put in a job posting?

Listen to me, people. It's 2 phrases: wear many hats and thrive in a fast-paced environment. Don't do those.

For me, it like, it's tough because I— the ones that I see that are the red flags to me, obviously the family one. Yeah. Must thrive under pressure or fast-paced. Both of those I translate to, we redline our team, we have no SOPs, and we will blame you when the workload collapses on your head because you are the FNG and it's your fault.

The only time must thrive under pressure should be in a job posting is if you're like dispatch for police and EMS.

Yeah.

That you should thrive under pressure.

Yeah. The funny thing about that is when you look at that, That is an excellent segue because we are going to talk about like the emotional side of things in a couple of episodes. Next week, we're going to get really nasty.

We are?

Yes. We are talking about the PIP.

Oh, yes. Not Gladys Knight and her PIPs.

No.

The actual PIP.

We are talking about—

Performance improvement plans.

The performance improvement plan. Because People, like, I'm gonna say this directly to the camera. Y'all done lost the plot on the PIP. That's all there is to it.

I get violently angry.

So if you see me in a helmet for the next episode, you know why. That all being said, do us a favor. Go to businessfixpodcast.com. Also, take care of yourself. If you can, take care of someone else too. We will see you very, very soon.

Bye.

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