The PIP Playbook: How to Make Performance Plans a Tool, Not a Weapon

As companies scale, the habits that got them here often end up being the bottlenecks that stop them from going further.

It's culture drift, Josh. Those same leadership habits that drove early success can quietly create bottlenecks and friction.

Exactly. We call that paying the invisible tax on scaling, and frankly, no one wants to pay it.

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Mm-hmm.

Made them better.

Yes.

And what they would do is they would start with a performance improvement plan.

Okay.

Do you feel that that has changed?

Tiny bit. Tiny, tiny bit. Just a little.

It used to be the way. Now we are going to discuss the weapon that it is and why you should just holster that thing and let's get it back to the way. Stay tuned. She's the CEO.

He's the marketing and operations guy.

If it's broken, you need—

The Business Fix.

As we have approached mid-August here, you're like, the kid's gone.

Yes, kid's gone. We're dealing with one. We have a high school student and a college student. You know, it's just, it's different. And I'm adjusting. I'm working on—

Are you?

I'm resilient.

Are you?

I am. If I keep telling myself that, I'll be fine. There was a shirt that I should have bought that said, I just dropped my daughter off at college, be gentle. And I did not buy it. So.

And yet you still decided to come in here and sit with me today.

I did.

That's— and we're gonna talk about Pips.

We are. Like, how can I throw Chrissy over the edge?

Right, right.

So she needs a 3-week hiatus.

Right.

If—

I was about to say, if at any point during this episode, you see Chrissy in a different outfit, it's because she lost her stuff. She had to go a few days at a facility.

And we had to reshoot.

And she came back and forgot the— right.

Yeah.

Right.

They change.

You'll come back in different clothes. Maybe a beard. Yeah.

Glasses on. Be fine. Are you doing anything fun right now?

I just— when I get—

when I get—

I get like, August is when it sets in. Like, oh, like summer's— we're well past halfway.

Yeah, here comes the fall.

Yeah, here comes the— and there's— I love riding in the fall. I truly do. Because it's nice and cool. You're not sitting on a 200-degree motorcycle in 90-degree weather in traffic going, oh, why did I make this decision? So, and like, especially on the one motorcycle, it's 2 of them actually are V-twins. So the one cylinder basically sits directly between your legs. And anytime you're sitting still, it is just, I mean, roasting like you from the crotch up. And—

No, thank you.

Yeah, no, it's just not— so the fall is beautiful for riding, like the leaves, all that other stuff. But it's also like, dude, It gonna get cold. This is almost over.

Winter is coming.

Right, right, right. Which is just scary as hell. That being said, like each year when I get to that time of the year, I start to realize how my performance on the motorcycle has failed.

Okay.

Be it on the track, be it in the woods, be it just riding around. And I think, boy, I really need to improve my performance some way. I should— I should come up with a plan.

Way to make a segue. Good job.

That is a good segue. Like, to me, what's so funny is, is I remember when, like, you were put on, like, hey, look, we're going to help you move forward from this. We see what's wrong. We want to help you change and fix this. Now, that basically says, like, when you— when someone gives you a PIP now, It as an employee, it is put open to work on your LinkedIn profile yesterday. Yeah. And in many cases, it's funny, I've, I've seen it come up and I've seen them change where you're like, oh, okay, well, that's— yeah, that's new.

Your 90-day improvement plan is really 90 days to update your resume, find another job, right?

Yeah. No, that's what it is. You have like— I mean, this is— and it's once again, it is— this is your 90 days of severance. Even though you're working through it.

Even though you're working through it. Uh-huh. Because we don't want to have a conversation that's awkward right now.

Right.

Yeah.

Right. We're going to set it up so we can have that awkward conversation in 90 days with security present. Exactly. The frustration. Chrissy's about ready to go Kool-Aid Man on one of the walls in the studio. This is going to be so much fun. Like when you're handed, like as someone that's working I've worked in many, many, many different jobs as an employee. When being handed a PIP, it feels like, hey, this is the terminal diagnosis. You've got 90 days to live. From an HR and like the CEO perspective, why have PIPs become just this toxic weapon instead of a tool? And like, like, what are they supposed to be as a tool?

Yeah, I mean, they're toxic because employees have learned what they usually mean. That's easy. I mean, in a lot of organizations, a PIP isn't a performance improvement plan. I mean, it's a delayed termination notice. It's the paper trail. For a lot of organizations, it's the paper trail. It's the slow walk to an outcome that leadership has already decided. And employees aren't stupid.

No.

I feel like, why do you— if this is the pattern—

I see this all the time.

People are not stupid.

You're not fooling anyone.

No.

We want to help you get better. No, you don't.

No, they know the process and they know what's real and what's performative. And for most organizations, PIPs are performative. I mean, and that's why the moment someone hears PIP, performance improvement plan, they're not thinking, great, here's my opportunity to improve. I mean, they're jumping to, I got to update my resume. I mean, and that reaction is not irrational. It's learned and it's demonstrated because leaders have taught employees, for decades that PIPs are weapons.

Oh, 100%.

And so they've used them to avoid direct conversations, they create legal cover, they delay those decisions they've already made emotionally, and that damages more than the employee on the plan, and the team sees it. I think that's where often as leaders we forget that the rest of the team is watching, and if they've been there for any number of years, they know performance improvement plan, I'm gone.

And the funny thing is, is when you have this meeting in the conference room or in your office between you and the employee, everyone on the team knows as soon as you're just like, hey, John, come into my office for a second.

They're like, dun dun dun. Right.

There's no secret here. You're like, just be quiet about this. There's no need. No.

Well, and I think from an HR and a CEO perspective, the strategic purpose of a PIP should be very different, and it should answer one question, and that is, can this person realistically succeed in this role with clear expectations, defined support, measurable goals, and a fair period of time? One question. Can they be successful in the role? If you really want to summarize it, that's it.

Yeah.

Is this person— is it possible for them to realistically succeed? That's it. It's not a punishment. It's not a threat. It is not a surprise attack. It's a structured decision tool. That's why I get so mad, because people don't use it as a— it is a tool. It is not a weapon. All right, so before you use a PIP, you have to be honest about whether you're trying to coach, correct, or cut.

Yes, yes.

3 C's of what we talked about when we're dealing with performance improvement. If the person is coachable, which means they're aligned and there is a clear performance gap, a PIP is absolutely appropriate. If the issue is behavior, Attitude, insubordination, active harm to the team, that's not a PIP. That may be a correction or an immediate cut.

All I can think of is the did I stutter scene between Stanley and Michael in The Office.

I mean, if you already know the person is not going to make it, don't pretend the PIP's a rescue plan. Just stop. That's where leaders lose moral authority. They lose their credibility. A good PIP creates clarity. Clarity, consistency, and consequence. Clarity is about the standard. Consistency is how the standard is applied. Consequence is if the standard is or is not met. And that's what really protects the company, not because it traps the employee, because it proves the company acted with fairness, structure, and integrity, because we put them on this because we believe that they're coachable and they can be a good team member.

So how do you determine when that employee actually warrants a performance improvement plan Like when it's coachable alignment, like when it's that skill gap versus it is that, here's your pink slip.

I mean, again, this is where coach, correct, cut matters, because not every performance problem deserves the same response. Not everybody needs a giant hammer. And I think that what mistake we make as leaders or managers is that we use one tool for every issue because we're uncomfortable with naming what actually happens. We're just going to use this No matter what.

Everything's a hammer.

Yeah, but a skill gap, a behavior issue, and a values issue, those 3 things are not the same.

No.

So a coach issue, let's give you an example. I mean, person wants to do well, they're aligned with the culture, they're trying, and they are receptive to feedback, but they're missing a skill, a process, a confidence point, a standard. They are a great PIP candidate.

Agreed. All right?

Correct issue sounds like behavior's causing disruption. Person may be capable, but they need clear, direct feedback now. Maybe they're communicating poorly. Maybe they get defensive. Maybe they're missing deadlines or creating confusion. That may require a direct correction, but not necessarily a full PIP. Hey, you're doing this. I need you to stop doing this. That doesn't need a development plan. Stop doing the thing.

Stop being a jerk.

That's it. Stop doing it. I mean, and a cut issue sounds like trust is gone, they are actively undermining leadership, refusing reasonable expectations, and they're creating harm within your organization. And harm doesn't mean like they're holding a gun to your head. Harm may mean— I know what you're thinking.

It can mean that too.

It can mean that, in which case that's a different problem. I would not call HR, I would call local law enforcement. But really, it's if they're not aligned with the values of your organization, and that's not a development plan. That is a decision, and those issues are not PIP issues. If they are actively harming your business, we are not going to put them on a performance improvement plan.

No.

So, if they are handing your customer list to your competitor, that's not something we're going to coach on. We're not going to say, hey, I don't think you should do that. We're going to say, no, you are fired. That is violating the terms of your employment agreement or employee handbook. So, I guess here's the other thing. If you're only using a PIP because you're afraid to terminate, you're not ready to do a PIP. If you can't clearly define what success looks like, you're not ready for a PIP. A PIP works best when the problem is specific, measurable, and improvable. So, and here's the bigger CEO manager question that I think, this is why I get so mad, because people don't answer this question first.

Breathe, breathe. I hear you actively calming yourself before you do this.

Here's what I want you to ask yourself, managers or CEO, would you be genuinely glad if the person successfully completed the PIP?

Huge. And that is an amazing question.

Yes, it is.

It truly is.

Because if the honest answer is no, then the PIP isn't real. And that question is going to tell you a lot, because if you are secretly hoping they fail, you're not coaching, you're staging. And that's where PIPs become toxic and why people hate them and why I get so mad when people post about, you know, well, I'm preparing to get rid of someone, so I just put their PIP together. That, if you want me to hate you, Text me that. This person isn't working out, so I'm just gonna put their PIP together because they're not gonna work. I'm like, what? Then just let them go. Why are we being a hostage? Why are you holding them as a hostage? And why are you putting your business as a hostage?

I was gonna say, you're holding yourself as a hostage.

Yeah, and if it's 90 days, you know they're not going to improve. Well, do you want them to get worse? I mean, that's the other part. If you know it's gonna be toxic, like, just stop the madness.

Here's my question. Because all we've seen it For the most part, it's truly— not truly, it's typically been used as a weapon over the past, I would say, 2 decades.

Yeah.

How do you communicate to someone that this is a legitimate runway for growth, rather than this is your way out the door, pack your stuff, this is a fake trial with a rigged jury, How do you make sure that they feel that it's one and not the other?

So I think the first thing is that employees should never be shocked when you use them. So we should use performance improvement more frequently than we do, because most of the time, Josh, this is why they're weaponized. People realize, you don't give me a PIP until you're ready for me to leave. And that's not it. I mean, so first, they should never be shocked. They should never be completely blindsided, because that tells me there was probably a communication failure before the PIP ever existed. Now, it doesn't—

Does it happen?

Just a little bit. A little bit. Does it mean the employee's going to agree to some of this? I mean, people don't always agree with feedback, and that's okay. But they shouldn't be hearing in their PIP that they have a serious issue for the first time. It's never supposed to be a first time. And from an HR and a psychological safety perspective, the message has to be direct and grounded. So it's not overly soft. Hey, we're putting you on this performance improvement plan. We'd really like it if you could maybe No sandwich. No sandwich. No sandwich, no. And it shouldn't be overly scary. You have 90 days, and if you don't improve, you're fired. Like, it's— that's in essence what they mean, but you don't need to say it that way. Be clear. So use the framework clarity, consistency, consequence that we've talked about in a couple of episodes around coaching. When we talked about coach, correct, or cut, we talked about clarity, consistency, and consequence. So I would say something like this. We're going to role-play for a second, all right? Here's what I would tell someone, right?

Am I going to lose my job?

No.

Are you going to kick me off the podcast?

Not today.

I see the paperwork here. Are you going to kick me?

All right. So we're at a point where this needs a formal plan, and the goal of this plan is to give you a clear opportunity to meet the expectations for this role. This is not a formality, and it is not a surprise ending, all right? We're going to define what success looks like for you, We're also going to define what support will be provided, how progress is going to get measured, and what happens if the expectations are not met. Also, we're going to talk about what happens if expectations are met. This PIP goes away and we just continue to love working together, right? That's the tone. It's direct, it's respectful, there is no drama.

We've all sat through those keynotes.

The ones where everyone nods, feels great for an hour, and then leaves without a single A tool that they can actually use on Monday morning. It feels good in the room, but it doesn't fix the bottleneck, the culture drift, or the manager who's afraid to have a hard conversation.

That is why we created The Business Fix Live. You know that we aren't interested in empty motivation at all.

No, we bring the practical side of leadership. Josh handles the operations and accountability, and I handle the culture and the people stuff.

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Let's stop the fluff and start fixing your business. You know the word that stands out to me there?

What?

Support.

Yes.

Like, I want you to get here.

Yeah, I want you to be successful. We hired you because we want you to be successful. We hired you for this team because we believe that you're aligned with our values and our culture, and you want to be here, and we want you to be here. But these are the things that we need for you to be successful. So employees need to know 4 things. I know we usually do 3, but they need to know 4 this time. All right? What's the concern? Why are we having this conversation? What does success look like? What support, that other S, will they receive? And what is the consequence if the standard isn't met? Those are 4 things. That's clarity. Then the manager has to follow through. That is consistency. And you cannot say, we're here to support you, and disappear in 30 days. Most of the time when it comes to a PIP, they say, we're here to support you, and they're gone by the time the meeting's over.

Yeah.

There's no support at all. I mean, PIP can't be good luck, see you at Judgment Day. That's not how this works. The manager has to show up, check in, give feedback. And if you're the business owner and you're giving the PIP, you better fricking show up.

Yeah.

So document your process, then you go to consequence. All right? If they meet the standard, great. They need to be reintegrated and that PIP needs to go away. It's not forever like they're treated on probation. All right?

No.

It goes away. If they do not meet the standard, the result should not be a surprise, and we do not step on people's dignity when we are letting them go. Safest PIP is the one where everyone knows where they stand the whole way through.

Yep.

Continue to check in. That's what creates legal protection, emotional safety, and leadership integrity. And I know you're going to talk more about it in operations, but that's The biggest question too is, if they're successful, are you going to be happy about it? Because if you're going to be mad when they're successful, that is a you problem. You either hired the wrong person or you're just a jerk.

Maybe both.

Maybe both. You need to be excited for them.

Oh, 100%.

I know when I've had people that have been successful, it's almost like throwing a party. You know, we are so glad that you're here. Thank you for changing the direction of your performance. What other tools and resources can we provide to you so that we can continue to build on this success.

Yes.

Say it with a smile. Don't be mad because they did it. So, all right, Josh, operations time. I know you're excited. You're like, she's going to yell at me. So if an owner or manager decides a PIP is necessary, they've answered the question of yes, they'll be excited if they're successful. How do we build and execute operationally so that it relies 100% on data, And removes that emotional guesswork and gives us a clean result. Because I feel like the data may match, but then I'm like, I still don't feel like I should keep them. And that, that is why PIPs have a bad name.

Oh, 100%. And I have a great story about this from a role-playing perspective. Oh, yeah. To me, like, first off, the 10-year slide, you have to look at this. Okay? And we've both seen this. You cannot PIP someone for a rule or standard that you have allowed to slide for 10 years. This is why people think it's a weapon.

Yes.

You have a rule in your handbook that you have not enforced for 10 years, but all of a sudden you're like, I don't like Betty anymore. So now you're going to enforce the rule on Betty.

Yes. But Bob, Jim, Alice, and Julie still have—

Correct.

—infractions on that rule. It didn't apply to them.

Like, for an example, if leadership has tolerated sloppy, sloppy CRM data, late handoffs, or missed deadlines for months or years without enforcement, Dropping a surprise pip on someone is hypocritical and destroys your entire company. You may only do this to one person in one office. That echoes through the entire company like you— like a shot you would not believe, because now you have become the erratic leader that uses the term at-will employment as a scare tactic.

Yes.

And not like, hey, we're both here because we want to be here. Yeah, because it's an at-will state, not like Hey, so once again, it's it shouldn't be used as a scare tactic. It's easy in the long run to get people to work because they want to, not because you made it your life's work to continually threaten them. No, those acts.

Why doesn't anybody want to work here anymore? Don't know. Maybe because you weaponized a pip.

Correct. So before, like this is the big this is the big thing. You have to run the leadership correction. Pips are never one of those things where you're like, oh, we need to do this. It's You finally decide that you need to do it. There's, there's— but there's never that point. There's a buildup to that point.

Yes.

Well, before you get to that point, when you're in the buildup, fix the broken processes, formally reintroduce and reinforce the SOPs to the entire team, establish visible accountability from the top down, and set that clean baseline. Then and only then If an individual continues to miss the established standard, move to a formal PIP.

Yeah.

Not before it.

No.

So here's the other thing. We've talked about this all the time. Audit the machine before you audit the person. Did the person fail or does your system suck?

Yeah. If everybody should be on a PIP right now.

Correct.

It's one of two things.

Correct.

The culture problem is really bad or—

Correct. Yeah, it's, it's the old saying too. If you walk into a room and there's not one asshole in there, it's you. It's the same thing with this. To me, the other thing that I like— this is the biggest thing that has served me so well in leadership positions. Before I got out, before I went to HR and said, hey, we need to write this up, I would ask, how have I failed this person?

Mm-hmm.

From an honest perspective? What have I done to help them? And once again, does that person feel like I'm helping them or do they feel like I'm working against them?

Yes.

If they feel like you're working against them, it's either because you are, there's a bigger culture issue, or they aren't a fit.

Yeah.

You have to check with them. You have to sit down and check with them. This is a process. Once again, this is a process you have to go through before you pull out the piece of paper and be like, hey, look, it's a BIP. Yay! Verify. Are there written SOPs? Are there functional tools and training? Were expectations defined in writing? If the operational infrastructure is missing or broken, you have to fix the system first. You're the problem.

Yes.

Didn't we talk about that last episode too?

We did. And yes, most of the time in these types of situations, it's, it's us. We're doing it wrong because we're We're avoiding something that's uncomfortable or we were too busy to pay attention. Correct. That's the, that's the bigger one is you just didn't pay attention.

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If you're good with that step, we move on to step number 2. Okay. Done in my best, like, commercial voice there. Good job. Designing binary, measurable milestones and a stepped progression.

Yes, please.

I hate it when, hey, here's your PIP, you need to be more proactive. More proactive than what?

It's not clear. Define what proactive means.

Right. We want you to improve communication once again or show more leadership. Hi, look in the mirror because that's what they're going to say to you. Build yes or no metrics. Update like, like update and clean these files by 5 p.m. daily with 100% accuracy. That's a thing because there's numbers involved there. There's, there's a done Point there. Improved communication is like a goalpost. I mean, it's literally— you've put a carrot on the end of a fishing pole in front of the donkey.

Make it measurable.

Yes. The other thing is, is step this. Don't— expecting an employee who is struggling at 60% capacity to jump to 100% as soon as you slide a piece of paper in front of them doesn't happen. It can't. It guarantees their failure. Yep. So like if you're doing 90 days, at 30 days, they're 5%. Let's say, let's say it's 30 days. Day 10, you're 5% better. Day 20, you're at 10% better. And day 30, you're the full 15% better that we need. Don't say we need you 15% better on day 30. They ain't gonna get there.

No.

Give them steps along the way to hit that, because you have to be active as a leader in this. Otherwise, you're not a leader, you're a manager, and you may as well just put Like, world's best boss on your mug and you start screaming at people. Like, handing someone a document and telling them to do better?

No.

Nothing signals, I don't care, I hope you fail, more than that.

Especially when you know that it is virtually impossible. Let's say you have a salesperson and you're like, you need to have X amount in your pipeline. You have to have X amount closed. And you know that you have— you gave them a 90-day PIP and you have an 18-month sales cycle. You have to figure out what does measurable progress look like. And if you don't want to keep that person because they're not going to make the cut, just let them go. You can always extend, but don't delay the inevitable if you already know you're setting them up for failure.

100%. The other thing that I want to talk about with that is let's talk about the high-frequency check-ins. Because what I want to do with you right now, Chrissy, is I want to play the PIP game.

I don't want to play the Pip Game.

No, let's play the Pip Game. I know. So what we're going to do here is I'm not going to tell you how to score. At no point throughout the game, I'm going to tell you what the score is. And in 30 days, I'll let you know if you still have a job.

Yes.

How does that sound? Do you want to play?

No, I don't. I'm gonna update my resume. I'm gonna wait for you to fire me. I'll file for unemployment if I don't have another job by then. Or, you know what, maybe I'm just working on my side Like, I have stopped caring if you're not going to tell me how to be successful.

No. And I am going to literally spend that next 30 days at my desk looking for a job.

Exactly.

You're never going to see a tool up. You're just going to see LinkedIn up.

No. And they're like, why aren't you working on this? You're on a PIP. And you're like, really? I'm on a paid vacation. I, I'm not on a PIP. This is how you make yourself feel better, sleep at night, and hopefully I don't sue you. But to be perfectly honest, I might because you're setting me up.

I truly love the paid vacation. We have to wait. Yeah, that's, that's just brilliant.

Mandated time off.

Yes. It really is.

Why don't you just give them severance at that point in time? Because they're not doing anything.

No, just give them the severance and cut the ties. Yep. To me, the other thing is there's a 15-minute data-only sync. Hey, here's where you're at. Like, and then once again, the standard was X, your output was Y. We are on track. We are off track. How can I help?

How can I help?

That's it. That's what that has to be. I mean, really, what do you need to be successful at this? Because like your question, I truly, truly love that. Do I want this person here? If not, just get rid of them. A PIP doesn't help you do that.

No.

Because a lot of people are like, oh, it makes it so we won't have to do like unemployment. And I'm like, no, you still will.

No, you still will. Well, and dare I say to the person who is giving the PIP, a failed PIP is just a reflection on you too, as much as it is on the person. Sometimes I would say more on you, because if you can't coach them to success, You're doing something wrong.

This is— a quick story about this. This is why I always find it funny when someone complains about their ex or their employees. I'm like, you hired them. You brought them on.

You hired them. You dated them. You married them.

Whatever it is. You picked them.

You picked them.

You picked them.

You're telling me you were a hostage? That's a different conversation. Most of us are never hostages.

You made the choice.

Correct. 100%.

You mentioned this earlier. No surprises. By day 25, they know if they've got it, if they've got a job. So here's the thing, though, too, with this is I want to talk about the binary outcomes of this. Outcome A, this is the one we're going for— success. If they hit the metrics, graduate them, as you said, immediately reinforce their seat, acknowledge their effort, and return to standard operating cadence.

Yes.

Now, when I like— when I say reinforce their seat, acknowledge their effort, I do not mean this is a pizza party for everyone. I do not mean—

It doesn't mean congratulations, Jessica is no longer on a PIP in a company meeting.

No, correct. Don't do that. What this means is you spending the time to sit down with them and say, look, I'm so glad you're here. Yes, that's all it takes. Like, pizza costs money. Sitting down to say something like that means the world to someone. Yes. And like, I've seen your effort. I appreciate your effort. I am so glad you're here. I am so glad we're able to move forward with this. And I mean, you can even like to jokingly say, because I, I truly value you here. And you know, like, I'm not going to be the type to get all mushy because then I'm going to be like, because I really did not want to have to go out into that job market again.

No.

You already have the person. If they can fit, help them fit. Now, If the data shows that they missed, and we, it's an easy conversation. We track the metrics over 30 days. The standard wasn't met, today's your last day. They know.

They do.

They knew. I have a, this is where the story comes in.

Okay.

There, and 10,000 small businesses, as I was going through that, we had lawyers come in to talk to us about HR.

I love it when the lawyers talk about HR.

Oh, it was great. They came in and they gave us a scenario. Now, there was a— the first scenario was you had to put someone on a performance improvement plan.

Okay.

There was a disciplinary action. And there was a guy, the sweetest guy you would ever imagine. Oh, you know exactly what he's going to say.

The marshmallow example. Yes.

He goes up there and they sat there for 7, 8 minutes. Like, look, we really love you here. But we should probably— I'd like it if you could maybe change a couple of— and like, I was watching this, and it was seriously, it was like watching someone deer hunting with a shovel. I'm like, you're not gonna get anything with this.

We're just gonna tase it to death.

Right? We're gonna pet it. And hopefully in petting it, it eventually just like, you know what? Right. It has a heart attack from the petting. That's what it was like watching. Now, the funny thing about that is too, is they said— I still remember this as plain as day— they said, they're like, okay, now we have— here's the scenario. Someone was put on a performance improvement plan. It was 6 months. Here's what— here's the— here's all the numbers from it. And they said, is someone willing to be the person that gets fired? And Natalie, Natalie Cavanaugh from Cavanaugh Photography said, I'll do it. She's like, I haven't really ever been in that situation before. And she goes, I feel like I could learn in—

What it feels to be fired.

What it feels to be fired. And she goes, like, if we have to address that to any of our employees. And so they're looking around the room, it's like, who's willing to be the one that's going to fire someone? And of course everyone is like, not me. And the lawyer's like, Josh, would you be willing to do it? And I said, sure, because I have done this before.

Yeah.

And as soon as I said sure, Natalie goes, damn. And the lawyer's like, why? And then I was like, Natalie, Literally said, she goes, this is gonna take about 30 seconds.

Yes. Letting someone go should take less than 5 minutes.

And it was funny. She struggled and fought. And she's like, but everyone else likes me. And I said, great. And that's our problem to deal with.

That's our problem to deal with. That is a challenge that we will have to solve.

She was sitting there and the lawyer just kind of looked afterwards like, yeah, that's about how it's done.

Broken record. Today is your last day. We appreciate the work that you've done. It's not working out.

Exactly. And once again, if you get someone to that stage, then you've got the data to back it up.

Yes.

But you— like, to me, anytime I have had to fire someone, I, I've done it confidently because I have realized I have done everything in my power to keep that person.

Yes.

Unless they weren't a fit, and then I was like, this is just not a fit.

Yeah.

What happens The ghost PIP. As soon as we started talking about this, I loved this question even more. Is it ever acceptable to put someone on a PIP if you already know they ain't gonna make it?

No. No.

You okay?

No. No, it was a complete sense. And okay, for those of you who say, well, legally we need documentation, because there's always those people like, well, no. If the outcome is already decided, Better question is whether you're being honest about what you're doing. You can document performance concerns without pretending there's a real path forward. You can just say, this isn't working. You can make a termination without staging a fake rescue mission. That's what it is. It's a fake rescue mission.

And you know what I find so funny about it is, is in 9 times out of 10, when people document something for a PIP like this, there's 4 other people in the company that don't have the numbers for it either.

Yes.

So if you're saying, like, if everyone needs to be at a 9, and this person's at an 8, I get it. I guarantee you I will find 4 other 7s out on the floor that you have not given a pip to.

Because you like them. And right, tell me why this person is a target.

You say you're doing this to, to document and cover yourself when 9 times out of 10 you're exposing yourself to something even worse.

Yes, and it's cruel. Why would you do that? So people are like, we need documentation so we avoid litigation. It's like, well, you need to make sure that you're not targeting this person.

Right.

Because, and putting them on a PIP. If you don't want them here, just let them go. Let them go. Let them file for unemployment. Give them that, like, you have a separation agreement if you need to have it. Like, it's not—

Because if they're an 8 and you fired them on a PIP and there's 3 7s out there and they find out about it, guess what? Now they've got a lawsuit.

Yes, they do. I think, oh, sorry, it just irritates me.

Okay, here's the question now.

Yeah.

Can you put someone on a PIP for bad attitude? Okay, this— Just the look on your face says I should have brought an antacid for you.

Gosh, you should have. Okay, this is where leaders really need to be careful. All right? You do not usually, usually, I mean, there are some cases, fine. You don't usually want to You don't want to put a PIP together that says, fix your attitude. That is vague.

Just a little bit.

Subjective, almost impossible to measure fairly. You need to give very specific things. You can address behaviors. If fix your attitude is the summary, but we've got very specific things, like for example, interruptions in meetings, disrespectful communication, give examples, refusal to follow a process, defensiveness to repeated feedback. Bad attitude is a label. Rolling your eyes in meetings. Bob, you've rolled your eyes 10 times in meetings in the last 5 days. That is not an acceptable form of behavior. We need you to respond appropriately and stop rolling your eyes in meetings. That's documented. That can be performance improvement. But if you say, you have a bad attitude, you need to fix it, I may not know what that means. What do you mean I have a bad attitude? Especially if you've never told me I have a bad attitude and this is the same attitude I've had since you hired me. All right? You have to be able to separate some of those things. So, I mean, again, values mismatch. If the person is fundamentally misaligned with values of the organization or actively harming a team, that is not a PIP. It's not. It may be a correction, stop doing that, or a cut. This isn't, you keep rolling your eyes and telling this person that they're an idiot, We're gonna give you a 90-day success plan so that you stop rolling your eyes and stop calling this person an idiot, which means that you gave them 89 days to continue to act this way. Why are you doing that? It's not a pip.

I don't have anything to add to that. I really don't. You've covered most of what I was thinking of.

In my diatribe.

That was very enjoyable to watch because I may be a little bit of an instigator. And to watch, like, the— if, if you're not watching the video, you should be, because Chrissy's wearing a, like, an orangish-reddish dress, and her face now matches it.

It does. When I check my Oura Ring, it's gonna be like, you did a HIIT class? I did not.

I love it. Uh, that being said, Do PIPs have a bad rap?

Yes.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Yeah. And they earned it because most of us do it wrong.

It's been weaponized and it's unfortunate.

Yeah. Rarely do you hear about a PIP going well. And that was one of the things that really made me mad in the WhatsApp group because there's like, does anybody have a PIP that's actually gone well? And I'm like, yes, the majority of ours go well. Because we know if someone's going to be cut or not. We don't give them a PIP And act like it's just— no.

It is a plan forward, and unfortunately it's not used like that anymore.

No.

And that's— it should be a plan forward. We use it as a plan forward. And if you're not, then you got a problem. Uh, key takeaways in like first things first for me: enforce the 10-year slide first. It like— stop using PIPs to suddenly punish behavior that you have tolerated for years.

We are going to pip the coachable. If you're using it to avoid a hard conversation or delay a decision that you know you already need to make, the team feels it. Stop it.

You've said stop it a lot.

Stop it.

To me, something else actionable with this, it's stepped progression and show up to help. Show them the steps, show up to help. If you do that, you have built rapport not only with them, But everyone else on your team.

Yes. And to repeat what you just said, clarify the process. So you're going to tell the employee on day 1 of this PIP, this is a real tool to help you succeed. This is not a formality, and this is what success looks like.

This is what success looks like.

This is what success looks like. Every freaking day for those 90 days.

Yep. Quick shot. Should someone's access to bonuses or commission be suspended while on a PIP?

Yeah, be really careful with that.

Yeah, I'm a hard no on that. Like, look, if you want them to sabotage stuff, like, not only have I told you that you're on your way out, but I'm going to handicap your pay. If you're on commission or something like that, it's already been handicapped enough.

Yeah, there are very specific ways that you can do that, but you need to make sure that you're using an HR consultant, an attorney. You got to look at your handbook, your employment agreement, but I would say most of the time, no. No, you don't. You got to be really careful. I don't ever want to tell you absolutely not. There are some cases, but—

I'll say absolutely not.

Okay, that's fine.

Should the rest of the team know when a peer is placed on a PIP?

Only those who need to know, and most people do not. That's how trust erodes. If you tell everybody that Betty's on a PIP, you're just a jerk. Stop it. Most people already know Betty should have been on a PIP like 6 months ago.

I was about to say, absolutely, from my perspective, absolutely not, because the team If you're a small team, they already know.

Yeah.

They saw you, you and Betty, like, hey, Betty, come into my office for a few minutes here. And then Betty comes out crying. They know what's up.

Yes. If you're a 5-person team, chances are everybody knows. In that case, everybody needs to be invested in helping this person be successful because you all agree that this person is valuable.

What is the single biggest mistake managers make when writing a PIP document?

They write it from frustration instead of clarity.

I agree.

This is not a dumping ground for every disappointment that person has made for you. It's a roadmap for improvement.

Yep. A PIP is a runway forward, not a history lesson.

Or a trauma dump.

No. Trauma dump.

Why you're mad at them. No. And that's how most people do it.

I like— you had that toddler-esque way you said that. No. Correct.

We made it.

We did. We did. And you didn't strangle me. You didn't like— I didn't have a microphone cord wrapped around me in any way.

See if I get a performance improvement plan from Josh next week for our episode.

No, I am not going anywhere near this. Not at all. Now, that being said, next week we are talking about the emotional intelligence gap. Oh, because that's a chasm that a lot of people can fall into.

Well, and a lot of Yes, a lot of PIPs happen because of this.

100%. There's a, there's, there's a method to our madness.

There is. We have, we have a process we're trying to indoctrinate all of you people in.

Imagine that, a process. Who do you think does that part? That being said, thank you for coming along for the ride. No, there's not any paperwork to sign at the end of this, but we would love for you to go to businessfixpodcast.com. We'd love to hear from you. Check us out on all the socials. Make sure that you are either on YouTube, follow us there, or your preferred podcasting platform. As always, do us a favor, take care of yourself. If you can, take care of someone else too. We will see you very, very soon. We hear from so many business owners who are struggling with high turnover, low morale, and teams that just aren't clicking.

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