Does Direct Mail Marketing Still Work? | Jeff Kruszyna

Everyone likes to say it's been dying. I've been told that my entire 20-plus year career, all to say it's not. You know, it is, as my business partner likes to say, appointment viewing of that physical, tangible thing that you're getting in the mailbox. You have to do something with.

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Yonkers, New York. I don't know why I just love that name, Yonkers. I don't know what its origin story is, but it's awesome. Thank you for listening. Joining me today, Jeff Kryzentka. No, give it to me again, Jeff.

It's all right. It's Kryzyna.

Krugina, Jeff Krugina with JMK Victory. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me, Christian. Looking forward to a good conversation today.

Hopefully Randy will edit all of those out. Maybe he won't. Maybe he finds it humorous and leaves it in. I trust Randy explicitly. So anyway, Jeff, tell us, what is JMK Victory?

Sure. So it's a full-service kind of soup-to-nuts direct mail fundraising company. So I like to say, think about the physical mail you're getting in your mailbox asking for you to support anything from political campaigns, nonprofits, charitable organizations, 501 and nonprofit organizations, patriot economy type businesses, anything kind of pro-America in theme, but good old-fashioned postal mail. So we do Everything from the, you know, my bread and butter is the creative, so the actual copy and, and, um, create, uh, graphics that go into everything from the outside of the envelope to the, the, the, uh, story that's told within the pages inside that envelope to a call to action, uh, which is, you know, support a worthy cause, whether that's a political campaign or a nonprofit or, or for-profit patriotic business. And then, you know, everything on the back end of that. So the, the, what's called the caging, and which is just the processing of all those checks and credit cards and contributions, and all the analytics that go into it. So everything is, everything is measured down to the penny. So that's where the kind of the art and science of direct marketing and direct mail fundraising, specifically specifically, um, kind of are attached there. So I know exactly down to, uh, really, you know, down to exactly the penny whether or not, you know, each, uh, campaign— so each time we send out a mailing, whether it's to acquire new donors or to cultivate those existing donors to have them upgrade or become sustainable, uh, givers, monthly, uh, givers You know, we can measure everything down to the minute detail on the analytics front. But yeah, so good old-fashioned postal mail. And we do everything, and we also can offer services that are à la carte. So if you only need the print production or the audience building as far as who we're targeting in the mail, or just the creative component, the art and the copywriting. We offer those as standalone offerings in addition to the kind of all-encompassing run the fundraising program for you type approach.

Do you— I'm sitting here looking through, trying to find— this is where I need a show producer. We had an episode with an OG of direct marketing, and I cannot remember his name, but it was a fascinating show talking about— like, he was one of the original financial newsletter producers à la Kiplinger, and at one point they were bigger than Kiplinger, and how that has changed and how it has not changed over his tenure. I personally think that physical marketing is something that is not emphasized enough with businesses because we've been distracted for the last 25 years with digital. And there's always something new and there's always something changing. But, you know, I think when you can put something physical in someone's hands, it lands differently. You get different level of engagement and, you know, you stand out more because you're not lost in the digital weeds. Do you do the printing or is that something that you subcontract out?

So we subcontract it out. We have a production manager on our team that works with a whole host of different print shops all across the country to make sure we're getting the best pricing and turnaround time. But yeah, so I would echo everything you said and definitely we'll use that in our marketing because yes, physical mail is— yeah, everyone likes to say it's been dying. I've been told that my entire 20-plus year career. All to say it's not. You know, it is, as my business partner likes to say, appointment viewing of that physical, tangible thing that you're getting in the mailbox. You have to do something with, whether that's, you know, you're going to put it down on your kitchen counter, you're going to go have your morning cup of coffee and go through your mail. And you can definitely remember when you get a piece of mail versus, you know, how many, how many emails you have are now— now even text messages were the latest greatest thing as far as fundraising. And I'm a big proponent of you should be fundraising and speaking to your donors across all channels. But it's a lot harder to find an email that you got from 3 days ago than it is to find a direct mail letter that you got in the mail 3 days ago. You're going to remember either the color of the envelope, who it was from, you know, something about it that stood out. Um, and that's, that's, you know, the crux of my job is, you know, as, as folks are checking their mail, you only have, you know, a handful of seconds for them to like, what am I going to do with this? Like, am I going to actually open it and read it, or am I going to toss it? Um, and that's, that's the, you know, the, the beauty of the art and science of everything from, you know, the, the weight of the paper to the color of the envelope to what fonts you select or the kind of addressing, the stamps that you use, like all of that goes into the kind of science of the marketing of it. And then the art of the story narrative storytelling, whether you're a political campaign or a nonprofit, making that one-to-one connection with, you know, between the person who we're ghostwriting on behalf of. So the organization, you know, figurehead or political candidates, and then that individual donor, making them feel like it's a one-to-one communication, even though we are obviously mailing, you know, hundreds of thousands of pieces of mail.

Hey, listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Yeah, I'm old enough to remember when people didn't like junk mail because it was in their mailbox and they were looking for something that, you know, was actually sent to them personally. And now it's kind of come back. It's gone full circle where, like, people are actually excited to get something in the mail, even if it wasn't a card from grandmother. And I think the allure of digital over the last 25 years, and I think it's accelerating with AI, is the— I put this in air quotes—

the cost.

Like it's cheap, right? And, and it doesn't cost anything to send emails. But, and I'm not bagging on email marketing, I mean, email marketing works, but, um, there, there's an allure to the cheapness of the digital tools, um, that, that I think hides the value of something physical. That's just my opinion.

Sure. Yeah, again, the, the barrier to entry, uh, for direct mail stops a lot of folks, but my counter to that is always the lifetime value of a donor you're getting, you're acquiring through physical mail is far superior and far higher. And those donors give not only more, more often, and longer term than your traditional email acquired donor.

So what's your origin story? How did you end up with this? In this space, and how did you come up with the name?

Sure. So the origin story, originally from New York. So when you shouted out Yonkers, I know where that is. I'm from Long Island, so south of and east of New York City. Yonkers is a little bit north, just outside the city. But anyhow, my origin story was I was a college student on campus, and it happened to be that Tuesday morning that all of us remember where we were, September 11th, 2001. At the time, I was thinking, I was a declared computer science major, going to go, thought I knew better and thought I was going to go into a career of tech, work for Microsoft or some big Silicon Valley company. But the Lord had a different plan for me. And after witnessing on repeat, watching from the Student Activity Center, the second plane hitting the second tower, something kind of stirred inside of me to change my focus and really start paying attention to world events, what was happening, not just, you know, War on Terror obviously was front of mind for everyone, every one of us as Americans, but also being 45 minutes from Ground Zero of— I still vividly can remember hearing the helicopters bringing folks to the university hospital because they had the biggest burn unit nearby. So all those sort of that experience of that day and the days after, the kind of spirit of September 12th where we were all unified as Americans, and we're going to go kick the terrorist butt. That really kind of galvanized me. I got way— I switched my major from computer science to political science, got engaged with Young America's Foundation. That's still a client to this day, where they were kind of the precursor to what a lot of folks know of what the great work that Turning Point USA is doing too. And we We work with them as well, but getting young folks involved politically on the right side. So on the Republican America First side of politics. And from there, I got my first job in direct mail fundraising in the DC area where I've been ever since. And JMK Victory. Yes, JMK are my initials and my son's initials. So Jeffrey Michael Kruzina and my son Jonathan Mitchell Kruzina. But I also like to commonly say, you know, Jesus mighty King, because— and we're, you know, filming this the day after Easter Sunday, so, you know, the victory on the cross is really the victory we should all have that kind of frame of reference to. But in general, you know, we work on political campaigns, and, you know, the victory, whether it's on the primary election or general election,, that's owed to that. But, uh, you know, ultimately we're, we're doing this for, for a greater purpose. So that was sort of the origins of the, the JMK, uh, Victory name. And, uh, you know, coming from, uh, you know, a college student in New York, uh, on 9/11 to now a, you know, 25-year career in, uh, Republican campaigns and, and direct mail fundraising specifically.

So when did you make the transition? And I want— I don't want to breeze past that. I do want to come back to it, but I want to get a couple of more questions out first. So at what point did you start your business?

So we launched actually almost exactly 3 years ago to the day after— so my business partner and I, both had long careers at larger agencies and, you know, finally got to a point where, you know, we had been talking about it for years on and off of when's the right time, you know, we're going to do this. And about 3 years ago, you know, pulled the trigger and, you know, formed our company and haven't looked back since because ultimately we wanted to be able to serve the kind of clients but with the kind of boutique mindset of, you know, we're one big family, we're joining your campaign, we're intimately involved in advising, even if it's beyond just the scope of our, you know, bread and butter of direct mail, to be helping with the messaging, whether you're a nonprofit or for-profit or a campaign. But yeah, so we've, we've been in business for about almost exactly 3 years now. As, as JMK Victory. But, um, yeah, that's, uh, in a nutshell what, what we've been up to.

So what was it that galvanized you to— it sure is, it couldn't have been COVID. I mean, like, if my math is right, you're doing this right at the tail end of COVID Like, what, what galvanized you to, to say that, okay, now's, now's the time?

Sure. Uh, I mean, a couple, couple of things. One, uh, I was about to turn 40, uh, so If you can do math, a little bit older than 40 now. But, you know, really it was this, you know, if not now, then when? And, you know, if we were just to— I mean, both of us independently, Joel and myself, having worked at bigger agencies, like, yeah, it would have been, you know, easier just to kind of ride it out into retirement, you know, as executives at bigger agencies. But really it was the You know, being able to pick and choose and really the ability to say no to some clients that don't align with us, with, you know, our vision for our company and the sort of clients that, you know, when you're a bigger agency, you kind of have to, you know, hold your nose here and there and you got to feed the beast. And too many of those over the course of, you know, each of us having, you know, 20-plus year careers in direct direct mail and direct marketing finally was enough. And yeah, coming up to my 40th birthday was no better time than then.

I love that. So did you guys work at the same agency?

So we did overlap for about 5 or 6 years, and then my business partner went off to work at another agency right before we launched together. And yeah, it's, you know, we have a good kind of symbiotic relationship where we complement each other. And most importantly, you know, the idea of being equally yoked of, you know, we're in alignment on, you know, not just our, you know, business core competencies and where our strengths and weaknesses complement each other, but also kind of long-term vision for the kind of company that we're looking to build and the kind of folks that we're looking to bring on to our team. And, you know, above that, you know, the great clients that we look to serve and are serving right now because, you know, we are in the heat of a midterm election. So we do have quite a few political campaigns we're working on.

Yeah, it tends to be chicken or feathers if you're in that industry for sure. So approximately how big were these agencies that you worked for?

I mean, both were, you know, 80 to 100 folks, you know, and we're quite substantial and we're, you know, we're right around that, you know, 10-person lean, mean fighting machine size right now. So that's not too much bigger than where we are now is where we want to kind of stay and intentionally. But yeah, so coming from 100+ person agency back to a smaller shop is definitely took some getting used to, especially the early days of not having a full-blown accounting team and back office to do all the things. And you're the chief cook and bottle washer of the company, which I think serves us well. We know how to do all the things, but we also know the best use of our time at the higher level is more intentional on the creative strategy and less on the knowing how to send an invoice in QuickBooks.

Yeah, I think, you know, talking to a lot of entrepreneurs that are starting out or recently in, I think that's the most common shock is all of the things that there are to do, all the things that you have to know that, you know, especially if you worked with a larger organization that you had other people to do those things for you, you knew they happened, but you didn't know how or who. All right. So my question would be, if you were going to go back 3 years and tell 40-year-old Jeff, you need to look out for this, this is going to be your biggest thing you don't know or the biggest challenge you're going to face in the next 3 years, what would you say?

Well, I mean, I think a lot of the ones that I did know going into it are the, you know, not having those kind of support teams out there. I think the bigger one would be, you know, what is the best use of your time? Not necessarily like— and I'm definitely a people pleaser, so I have a hard time saying no. So overcommitting and that kind of strain on time would be the biggest kind of, you know, I think improvement that I've learned. And, you know, now having a business coach and all that of like, okay, back to what we were saying as far as what clients to say no to, but also what projects to say no to. Because yes, we can do all the things under the sun. Maybe the best use of our time isn't doing this one-off freelance project that I'll, as I like to poke fun at, and my business partner and I have this sort of relationship of chasing nickels when we could be chasing you know, bigger, uh, 6 and 7 figure, uh, you know, accounts. And, you know, saying no, I think, I mean, to some, some degree, you know, we needed to keep the lights on in the early days. So a lot of these, uh, kind of one-off or smaller projects, and we do like working with smaller campaigns and, and smaller nonprofits and watching them grow over time. So that is super fulfilling. But I'd say a lot of these, you know, one-off things that are outside of our kind of core competencies. If we could, if we could have avoided more of that, that would have freed us up to do more intentional outreach to more of our ideal clients.

Yeah, you also hit on another very common theme with entrepreneurs starting out, and one I fell victim to, is trying to be everything to everyone. And when you're starting out, there is that fear of failure that like, I've got to take the job, I've got to take the work because to your point, you got to keep the lights on. I think the quicker you can get to the ideal client and understand your— you as an individual, what is the highest and best use of your time, where you produce the most value. The quicker you get to that point, the more successful you're going to be. Sounds like you were a lot quicker on that learning curve than I was.

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Which segues into my, my next question. Thank you for teeing that up very nicely. Um, it sounds like you've got, um, you know, so you said, uh, political campaigns, uh, nonprofits slash charity, uh, and then, then for-profit businesses. Is there any further refinement you perceive that you need to make to, to narrow your scope further?

Uh, not necessarily. I think it's, it's more so, um, you know, as we, as we look to scale and, and build our team where, you know, Jeff and Joel aren't, uh, necessarily, uh, the one, you know, in the weeds on every account, even though I do like to have, you know, my pulse on— because all the clients, you know, know who I am and who Joel is, and I like the ability to, you know, when they call, I can pick up and I know exactly, you know, what's going on in their program because I've had a hand in it. But as we look to scale, I think it's more intentional in the caliber of individuals that we're bringing on because the clients that we work with are wonderful. And especially on the campaign side, come November, some will win, some will lose, and that's natural. So we're going to probably not win every race that we're involved in, especially going into a historically bad for our side because we've got, you know, President Trump in the White House. So our side is probably, you know, not probably, we're facing headwinds and we're trying to, you know, counter that. But all to say, not really, you know, in terms of being more selective, I think we're more so, you know, looking to build out full-fledged programs versus doing a lot more of the à la carte services, although for the right campaign or right cause, we're passionate about all the issues that we write about and we work on. So we can certainly be convinced otherwise. But it's, I think, being more discerning on who we're— as you were talking, one of the things that popped in my head as far as the delegating and Dan Sullivan's great book, Who Not How, is to make sure that you're getting the best use, the highest productivity of your time, and delegating all the rest. So whether that's Dan Sullivan or one of the dozens and dozens of self-help or business coaches out there that preach some version of that, of the art of delegation is important, and trusting that you've trained the folks that you're delegating to, to do it. Up to standard.

Yeah, I find, and it certainly was in my case, but I find that's usually the very first entrepreneurial inflection point that you arrive at. I did not coin that phrase, that was my friend Drew Goodmanson. And it's that you realize that you're capped by your own time and energy, but usually time. And so the company can't grow beyond you if you don't delegate. But that poses a problem for all entrepreneurs because you're turning loose of something very important, or you wouldn't have been doing it in the first place. And The thing that I found in my own experience is I found two concepts very helpful. One is Patrick Lencioni's Five Dysfunctions of a Team. Sure. And the foundation of all teamwork is trust. And I thought I had trust in my organization, but here's how that played out. We didn't actually have trust. And so we stalled because there wasn't trust. And the way it looked was I didn't trust the members of the team that they were going to do what they said they were going to do. In it in the time frame that I gave them, and they didn't trust me that I wasn't going to, uh, you know, meddle or, uh, change my mind and change directions. And in reality, we were both correct, like, but the way that manifested itself is that we didn't function very well as a team. And so We had to go back and rebuild that trust. And one of the key concepts, the other thing that I came upon during this time was— I can see his face. I can't remember his name. I hate this. Where's my producer? It was this idea of deputizing rather than delegating. And, and the difference is that the deputy shows up on site at a crime scene, they are the sheriff, they have the full authority of the sheriff, they, they can make the decision and suffer the consequences, right? And that was a difficult concept for me to embrace because if you just delegate without authority you run into a lot of problems. You still become the bottleneck, right? Right. But obviously, if you're going to delegate with authority, saying you speak in my name, you have the power to make these decisions, you have to have a lot of trust. Like, you can't have somebody there that you think is going to go off the rails or not act in a way consistent with what you're doing. But here's the key thing for me. I had to get over my own hubris, my own ego, to understand that the right answer was not— didn't mean the same answer that I would come up with. It wasn't the way that I would have made that decision or worked that problem. There are multiple ways to do it. It was my way is not the only way. And, you know, that took some getting over on my part.

Yeah, I mean, I think we're still in that stage too. I do like the, you know, the deputizing versus delegating. That is a key differentiator there because, yeah, ultimately, if you're just, you know, have a bunch of middlemen that, you know, where the client and, you know, I've seen it by being at bigger agencies where, either you are the decider or you're not. And the client, especially longstanding clients that have relationships with the founding founders of the company, know it, whether, you know, you're able to make the decision or you got to go back and run it up the flagpole, so to speak. So that's, that is definitely a spot where, you know, we're, you know, in year 3 where, you know, we've got a lean team that, you know, we do all the things you know, all together at this point. Um, and we're, you know, generally clients are hearing either directly from me or Joel or, you know, some combination. Uh, still to this day, uh, hopefully there will come a point where, yes, we can deputize, uh, some folks to, to be able to be the face of the company toward our clients, um, while, you know, we're still in the grind of the day-to-day right now.

Yeah, and your illustration was great because like, what happens then if you just have an order taker in between you and the decision maker is that the decision maker eventually always gets dragged back in, right? And you become the bottleneck. I remember when I promoted Chelsea to head of client service, And I actually woke up in the middle of the night after I did that, and I'm like, I just promoted a 27-year-old— she may have been 26 years— to be in charge of all client service. I woke up in a cold sweat and I'm like, what the hell did I just do? But I knew she was the right person. She didn't have all of the experience yet, but I knew she was the right person. But the first time that she told a client something that they did not want to hear, and they were like, "Well, I want to talk to Christian." And her response was, "Well, that's fine. This is my decision. He's going to tell you the same thing." And being okay with that— here's the hardest part of deputizing is that those people that you deputize are going to make mistakes. And being okay with owning that mistake because you're still responsible.

Right?

But being able to say, okay, you're free to make your own decisions means you're going to be free to make mistakes. And being okay with that as the founder and the owner is a tough hurdle to get over. But once you get past it and you get to that point where, like, the conversations I have with Chelsea, now are more of, "This is a situation that I don't have any experience in. This is what I think I'm going to do. Do you have any experience, Cher, on that?" Not even advice, like, "Have you encountered something similar in the past?" And, you know, I only know she's coming to me when she's got a problem that she can't she hasn't experienced or she really is wrestling with, can't figure out a path forward. And that's a very different dynamic than did you do X, Y, and Z? That's just the accountability piece. The deputization piece is, okay, you're making those decisions right now.

That, that, yeah, that is definitely where I want to get to. You know, with, with, uh, folks on our team, um, or future, future employees, uh, to where they feel like, you know, they're invested. And, and whether or not, you know, they're, you know, you know, on paper, you know, a shareholder or equity— have an equity stake in the company— everyone needs to have that. Like, this is your company. Because, like, while yes, the, the logo on your shirt or on your business card says one thing, like to our client, you are the face and you are JMK Victory to them. So good or bad. And I think the bigger lesson that I've learned is, and having some really great mentors and bosses along the way to where, to your point, like when I messed up or when someone messes up, making sure that your leader has your back, not to, you know, throw you under the bus or be like, oh well, like, they don't know what they're talking about and let me come fix this for you. Right, right, right. So, you know, avoiding that. And yeah, yeah, I've seen it both ways. Uh, and, you know, having, having that, you know, uh, either mentor or, you know, manager, owner, whatever, kind of knowing that they're in your corner, uh, even though, you know, things went sideways, uh, is all important. And, you know, ultimately, you know, the, the old joke of, uh, or, you know, phrase where it's like, people don't leave companies, they leave managers, uh, is very true. And, you know, I've certainly seen it, you know, uh, where folks love, you know, the, the company I used to work for, uh, and the clients we serve, but really had a hard time with a manager and decided to leave because of it. And you hate to see that. And lessons learned along the way for Joel and myself. We haven't come to that inflection point yet, but making sure that we're engaged and to a point where, yes, the people that we're employing and working with, we consider them family. Knowing, you know, what's going on in their, their lives, uh, is important, uh, because ultimately, you know, if you have a, you know, uh, yeah, if you, if you've had, you know, uh, issues with, with a kid or a spouse, or, you know, you're coming into work in the wrong frame of mind, like that, you know, the work— the whole, you know, fallacy of work-life balance, it's all, all one and the same. You're the same person. Like, it's what's happening at home will affect your work performance. So understanding that point too is critical. And same thing working with clients of knowing what they're— to the extent you can know and developing those relationships of knowing when their birthdays or anniversaries and things are and knowing what's going on for them on a personal level too. It's ultimately everything we do is relationship-based, you know, and yes, we happen to do direct mail fundraising.

I have a comment and then I have a— not a correction, but a difference of opinion. So the first is that the Well, I lost it. I know the second one. So the— oh no, I know the first one. The first one is you said, you know, like you treat this company as your own. I think that's a fallacy that I shared and a lot of entrepreneurs share. And it causes a lot of frustration because the expectation is that you're going to treat this the same way that I do. And that's not ever going to happen because if they had that same mindset, they'd have their own business, right? And your employees are never going to think like you do. They're never going to take the risks. They're never going to be as sold as you are. They're never— that's just— it's a common frustration among entrepreneurs. They get them, why don't they think about this this way? They just don't and they won't. So, you know, quit trying. My contradiction, you said you treat your team like family. And I said that for a long time until I realized that that's not a good comparison because you will not fire family. Well, maybe you would. I don't know. In the sense that like you can't get rid of family just because they misbehave, right? Sure, you can draw boundaries and all that other stuff, but they're still your family, right? And so that analogy didn't really work for me. And I think team is the right analogy because if you think about a sports team, it's performance-based. It's not that I don't care about you, but you're here to perform a function. And if you don't perform that function, it doesn't mean I don't like you. It just means you can't be here. And that was a very difficult thing for me to do because I held on to a lot of employees for a long time that I shouldn't have because I cared about them, because there was that personal connection and had that family mindset. But I had to make the shift of like, well, I still love you, but this is not your home because you're not doing the job. And that was hard.

Yeah, I mean, you know, we haven't gotten to that point yet with anyone. And I know myself, you know, having been a manager and a senior leader, having to, you know, have hard conversations. Um, yeah, that's not my favorite. I don't think it's anyone's favorite.

If it was your favorite, you'd be a psychopath.

So it's— yeah, agreed, for sure. So yeah, that is definitely a good, uh, you know, uh, you know, Thanksgiving may be a little different if, uh, if you have to fire, you know, a sibling or a spouse or a child.

Yeah, I— my brother was my partner for 10 years, and 3 years before he left, I knew he needed to go and I couldn't fire him. He eventually quit. Like, I never fired him. Right. But, but, you know, that's, that's the difference between the family and a team. Okay. So I want to end with this conversation, and I don't end with it because I think it's less important. I just think it's distinctly different. You are obviously very comfortable with your faith and your business. I, for a long time, was very timid about that. I felt like religion and politics were two conversations that didn't have a place in the workplace. Like, you know, I wasn't not being a Christian when I was at work, but I was very careful to draw that line until about 18 months ago, and something shifted in me that I decided that, like, I wasn't going to try and separate those things. And I'm just curious how that, how that worked out for you. Did you have any, did you have any reservations about it? Did you have any problems with it? Like, what did that work out for you?

I mean, not as much just because of the nature of the kind of clients we serve, or political and Christian in focus. But I'd say, you know, my involvement in C12, which I'm a big proponent of, which is a Christian business owner roundtable, you know, where you meet locally once a month But it's all, you know, the underpinning of it in the C12, 12 disciples, C for Christian kind of thing, is that we're just stewards of what God has entrusted us to lead. So these companies, the real CEO of all these companies is God, and we're just here kind of managing it and stewarding all the blessings that he's given to us. And so Having worked and been in C12 groups for a number of years, that was, you know, I always loved those monthly meetings because it was like, okay, we're gonna do, you know, a business topic, whether it's transition planning, you know, anything, you know, hiring, firing, you know, things that every company has to do, but from a biblical viewpoint and using scripture and stories right out of the Bible and how that kind of translates into different areas of business. And I was probably the only one in that, in here locally, I'm in the DC metro area. So there's a lot of government contractors and folks like that. But as far as working in politics and working with Christian ministries where I'm like, okay, well, you know, by virtue of the clients that we work with, like, we're in alignment because if I wasn't, you know, if I didn't believe these things, I couldn't actually produce the creative that coincides and, you know, raises money for these worthy causes. So, you know, I don't think I had necessarily as much hesitation or, you know, any reservation or hesitation as far as you know, even in starting my own company of being very kind of outwardly like, hey, this is who I am. You know, I'm Mr. Republican. I'm also a, you know, a strong believer, Christian. And that informs, you know, business practices and who we work with and how we steward finances and, you know, just how we run our company day to day. Whether that's, you know, if that's for you or not, you know, this is who we are. So, you know, folks can self-select out on the front end.

Yeah. And I think, I mean, to be honest with you, from a secular standpoint, that's still good advice. Like, being who you are, being upfront about who you are, eliminates any surprises or ambiguity. Like, you know, the more clear you can be, this is who we are, what we do, why we do it, the more people will self-select and say, well, they're not for me, which saves you time, saves you energy, and ultimately makes you more productive. So thank you for sharing that. How do people find out more about JMK Victory if they want to learn more?

Sure. So the easiest is go to JMKVictory.com is our website. I'm on all the social medias. I'm sure we'll link in the show notes. But beyond that, because as we all learned at the beginning, Kruszyńa is a mouthful to say.

The thing about Polish words and Eastern words in general is there aren't enough vowels. It's just like—

Yes, a whole lot of consonants. Yeah. So I have GetJeffK.com as a very easy to find website and happy to offer a 30-minute strategy session with anyone, any one of your listeners that wants to learn more about who I am, what we do. If we want to talk about politics or sports, I'm a big Green Bay Packers fan and love me some pickleball. So we can talk about pretty much anything. And yeah, so either jmkvictory.com or get jeffk.com are the two easiest ways to find me. And if you want to attempt spelling my, you know, Kruzina, uh, I'm pretty sure I'm the only Jeff Kruzina out there in the, the Googleverse. So I'm, I'm on all the social medias, happy to, you know, connect on LinkedIn, Instagram, uh, Twitter, X, whatever, what have you.

Love it. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast, If you don't like what you've heard, hit that little envelope and shoot us a message, and I'll get rid of Jeff. Until next time, ta-ta for now.

Thank you.