How To Close Someone Who Won't Tell You Anything (Lost Call Breakdown)

If you've ever hopped on with a prospect and they're so vague and slippery, you can never actually get anything concrete, then this video is for you. Because in today's video, I'll be breaking down a sales call from a prospect who had Plan A, B, C, D, and F, and then ended up being so vague that they never even closed. If you don't know who I am, my name is Christian Polk. I've closed over $8 million in sales myself. And just in this past month, I had 3 students in my mastermind hit over $50,000. Per month in straight commissions. So if you pay attention, you actually implement what I'm going to be showing you in this call review, then you will make more sales. Call reviews are the absolute best way to get better at sales because you're talking about real-life prospects, not just theory. A little bit of context on this call review: this is with EJ. He is a $20K per month closer, and what he sells is a buy-a-business program where he helps people Buy a business. Generally speaking, he's talking to more C-suite corporate people that again very very vague. So take notes and let's dive into the call.

Going man, I'm going. It's just hanging in here. Start of the week. I hear you.

Cool.

Awesome man. Yeah no, I got your emails. Obviously had responded here. One thing that I won't do man, just for the sake of not discounting yours, I'm definitely not going to rush the conversation just because I want to be able to make sure you have all the information that you need, but also just make sure that we can help in the first place.

Real quick.

He emailed me like. 30 minutes prior to the thing, he's like, I've only got 30 minutes. So I had a back and forth email chain with him. I'm like, dude, no worries, reschedule here. And I sent him the link and he's like, ah, actually let's do it. And I'm like, I'm letting you know right now, I am not rushing the conversation at all. Like, if you leave, you leave. So I kept him on for the full 45.

Dude.

But by the time we got to that 45, he was like, I really gotta go, I really gotta go. So I couldn't even push into like agreement, getting it.

Yeah, fucking, like, that sucks. Like, since it's been such a drought with the facility founders in terms of leads, like, I had one guy come in, like, just like on his phone. Like, he had to, like, get away from, like, his vacation. He could, like, barely— like, I still had the conversation. And then he, like, he hopped on the next time, like, with his wife. And it's like, I don't know if they just can't figure out the cameras. It's like, at first he sounded like a normal guy, but then on the second call he sounded old.

Yeah, right.

Like really old. And his, and his wife sounded really old. I've just been hammering this dude on follow-up. If you went there, the blue pill, red pill, blue pill on a boomer. He laughed at it. And then like, yeah, I've just been hammering this dude, right? And then this one was the one that like got him back on track, the Kanye meme. And he's like, you know, I had a doctor's appointment and then, yeah, I got him back on. I'm like, hey, are you actually Interested, or is this something you want to take seriously? Because oh, I want to take it seriously. We just have to convince the wife, and then hop down with the wife, and then yeah, we'll fucking see. Dude, I've been hammering this guy. I don't know. He sounded younger, but I haven't seen him, and then he sounded super old in the second. Yes, whatever. I'm like, I'm at this point. I'm like, whatever it is, I'm gonna try to sell you. Literally, I like I've been following up with this guy relentlessly. He does not have any money. But I hopped on with him and his brother-in-law today. His brother-in-law has $40K. So we're going to see if we're going to make it happen. Like my follow-up game, just on the amount of leads I've had has been crazy, bro.

Yeah, because you have.

Yeah, fucking crazy.

That's right. There's some people that for whatever reason, either their buy box just, it doesn't make sense for what they're looking for or we're not able to help. I want to be able to get a little more granular on that just to see if we can't help in the first place. But walk me back a little bit, man. Like, I've got some notes here from Jose, but they're very vague in the sense that you're like, look, I am not exactly industry specific. And if the right opportunity comes about, I'm opportunistic enough where I would relocate. But a lot of that is very ethereal. And what I mean by that is we don't necessarily— we don't necessarily know exactly the industry, then it's more so the nuts and bolts of not necessarily nuts and bolts, but more so what it does for you. That's kind of what it sounds like, right?

Mm-hmm.

It's the industry, but more so what it does for you. So just help me understand it. Like, what even has you looking to buy a business in the first place? Like, how can we actually help?

Yeah.

So I am overall, I would say like your demeanor, definitely a lot better.

Yeah.

Of you just directing the conversation.

I run a company right now. Me and my partner have different visions for it. We sell STEM education curriculum to school districts. So I've got experience, you know, being an operator. I'm looking to— I'm not necessarily specific on the industry. I am looking to go in and run the business. You know, I want to create my own culture, build it right, grow it.

So I'm sure with the STEM education piece of it, like, I guess what's coming up for you now that makes you feel like you're not able to, I suppose, do what you're ideally going to do here?

Wait, can you repeat that question?

Sorry. Yeah, because you already have a business, right? And you already have some operating experience. Like, what makes you feel like with the STEM education business, it just may not be enough? You'd be looking at doing something different here?

It's all about the people. I have a partner in the business and we have— we're on way different wavelengths. So I guess you could call it like I signed a bad investor deal and I'm just getting out. So we're hiring a new CEO pretty much. Okay.

So right now you're acting as CEO for the Crimson Bugger?

Yeah. And business is great. It's just— it's the politics and the back office stuff.

Interesting, man. So I suppose And did you actually—

I'd want to get more clear on that because it's like, well, what do you mean? Can you give me an example? Are they not wanting to grow it? Like, what's going on here? Because like, that's so vague. Fair enough. Because it's like, hey man, I don't want you to get into this business and you face the exact same problems you're facing right now.

Well, I was thinking about that back in my head. As soon as he said that, I was like, I want to be able to give him context as to why I'm asking, but he's going to— he's just going to tell me, oh no, well, this business though, I'm actually looking to do this completely by myself.

Yeah.

So that's what I was like, I know I'm gonna run into that if I, if I start to probe, if I'm like, use that frame. So I just didn't know how to push it in with that.

Yeah, well, like with that, if they said something along those lines, it's like, well, yeah, like you're gonna be by yourself, but you can still face the same type of restraints like no matter what is going on, right? So help me understand, like what are the restraints that you don't like in the business because of the partner that is causing you to want to transition out?

Okay, if he— if it's just more so vaguery, if it's just like it's Politics, like, I don't want to get into it. Is this something that you would just kind of— you'd press more into?

I'd probably like start to push and like ask for examples. Okay, is it just like you don't like your partner and everything else is great, you're making great money, you guys are growing, or is the politics affecting like the actual business and the vision of what you're looking to achieve? How's it affecting that?

Yeah, fair.

Right? So it's like you kind of push him into it. If he, if he tells you like straight up like, oh, everything's great with this guy, It's just like the business is growing, but I just sometimes would bicker. What the fuck are we talking about?

Yeah, bro. With this call in particular, it was more so like him being shifty on what he actually wants to do because he uses vague language of like if, and you'll see. You'll see.

Okay.

Yeah. Was that more so a startup?

I founded it.

Okay, so you founded it?

Yep.

Okay, man. Well, I mean, it sounds like you've gone through the startup route before. Like, what has you looking at, I guess, acquiring something as opposed to maybe just ticking back down and founding something, founding something again here?

That's a good question. I am looking at that. I'm looking at that option as well. I think where I'm mainly looking at potentially acquiring something is, is just if something pops up that I think might be a good fit for us and we could take in rather than restart the whole process again. So I am looking at potentially starting another company this, in parallel.

Can I make a suggestion then? When it comes to, I suppose, like the if component of it, right? Some people, when they're actually like completely bought into the idea of like buying a business, it's still a level of barrier of entry where it's difficult for them to be able to do so. Right. So it's one of those things where it's like, look, if I'm able to find it, right, it's like, yeah, if anybody's able to find a really good business, then anybody's looking to be able to offer, right? It's just about kind of putting yourself in the best position where you're able to find some of those businesses.

Yeah.

So if you're not at that point where you're like, I'm fully bought in of like acquiring something, I guess it's kind of one of those questions where it's like, if you're happily married, tend not to go on too many dates. It's kind of like, why actually look or entertain this whole idea of like buying a business as opposed to just starting from square zero?

I think overall that was good. All right, like, so it's like basically what you're doing there is like, hey, all things being equal, if you could buy a business that ticks all your boxes, why would you prefer that versus you starting?

Yeah.

Right?

You could probably cut out a little bit of the words, right? But overall, I see exactly where you're going, and it's a really, really good framework.

I think this time around, to be honest, I mean, we bootstrapped the heck out of this thing the first time around. It'd be nice to step into something with a little bit of existing structure. I built it all from scratch. myself the first time around. So it'd be nice to walk, to kind of walk in. And the thing about my company is I feel like it has a ceiling. We rely on a lot of grant-funded schools. I want to come in, I kind of do want to try a different industry. And then also I'm probably going to be doing this with my father as an investor too. So again, I hate to have like a vague answer. We might, we might start something scratch again, but I do kind of want to walk in ideally something with a little bit of structure and grow it from there.

Yeah. Well, why is that important for you then? Because like some people are okay with maybe just starting from ground zero and not having that structure. Right, like why was that? Maybe preferable.

Just because it's hectic. It's pretty hectic here. It was, you know, and I think there's maybe an element of there's maybe an element of wanting to try something new. Probably an element of wanting to try something new and tackle kind of different type of challenge. So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at with it. Again, I'm I'm kind of flexible. I'm like I'm also looking at corporate jobs. Like our situation is we're just it's where me and my partner are fighting pretty good, right? So I'm trying to cover all my bases where I'm keeping our company until I transition out here shortly. Buffalo, growing it, all the things.

Because did he actually answer the question?

No.

No.

I think part of it though, he did say with, with what we're doing now, there's a ceiling with just like the grant funding from schools. So that's why he wants to be able to potentially do something different as opposed to maybe just doubling down on the schools.

Yeah.

Like, you'll probably probe there.

Yeah, but in my head, I'm not going to probe there, right? Because that doesn't eliminate the alternative of him just doing something startup in like a different market. So in my head, I would really drill down on the hectic.

Okay.

Well, it's like, hey man, some people, they actually really enjoy that hectic environment. Like, why is that something like you, if you could avoid it, you would? And just really drill down into that. And then you can create the gap in terms of like what it would be like starting in a different industry, like him starting from scratch, basically.

And I was, you know, finding— I'm interviewing for corporate jobs too. It's crazy. I'm pretty busy, you know what I mean? Like covering all my bases. And I'm just—

oh, is that what you would ideally like to do? Like going back to corporate and doing that gig or?

I've never done corporate, so no, ideally no. With that being said, there's a few positions I'm interviewing for that I am pretty excited about. And not corporate as in like KPMG, like more startup style still. So I should have clarified. I don't think I could ever go that corporate, but I am looking that route. Ideally, no. Ideally, I think I would like to start something from scratch given the right situation. I've got a couple ideas I'm toying with and putting some models together for.

What would you start up?

Like, this dude's so fucking indecisive.

We take the whole acquisition. What I went through here was I was like, okay. In my mind, as soon as he said that, I was like, okay, fair enough. Like, if you want to be able to start up something but you don't want to go through the headache of it, what would the startup ideally look like in order for you to be like, okay dude, it's already here, we can go ahead and move forward with it right now? That's what I was trying to get out of him, was like, ideally, if you did that startup, like, what does it look like?

Yeah.

Just to be able to pull something out of him, and then I can—

Yeah, like, what's the idea? And it's like, yeah, you can have plan B, C, D, and F, but if we can get you plan A, guarantee it, is that something you'd want to pursue?

Yeah.

Right.

Like, that's what I would try to drill down for him.

Let's say you could start something from scratch and you built something that you actually really enjoy doing. Like, what does that actually look like?

Are you talking industry or—

Just what immediately comes to mind. Like, what does it actually look like when you actually started something up that's like, you know, I actually like this and I'm happy to do it?

Well, I mean, I've got a few different— again, it kind of goes back. I'm not super industry specific. I've got one product-based company I'm kind of thinking of, you know, I think like a more online, online e-commerce, right? One's more of a service-based and totally different industries. I think this time I would probably want to raise a little bit of capital because we didn't the first time around and I don't regret that. Like, we got a great thing going now until I, until I did. It wasn't necessarily raise capital, but let a partner in. I think I want to involve more people, you know, build a team earlier on and probably raise some money to do stuff.

Okay, well, we could push an industry out of it. Like, that doesn't even have to be the criteria, man. Like, what would it ideally— again, if it isn't something like the nuts and bolts of a business, it's just more so what it does for you. Like, you actually being able to have that business and you owning something where, you know, you have that politics aside. Like, what does it actually do for you, I suppose, like, personally?

So we're diving into like what it does for him without understanding the specifics of it. So that's a bit of the issue right there, because he's like, oh, like I'd want to start up, or if I'm looking at all these different businesses, blah blah blah blah blah. Well, it's like, okay, well let's zoom out, man, because it seems like we're really looking at a lot of different things that can potentially move us forward.

Yeah.

What is the end goal here, right? Like, what is— like, what do you want your day-to-day life to actually be? And then we can backwards, right, analyze how to actually get there. And if a business does it, fantastic. If a business doesn't, I'll be the first one to tell you too.

Yeah.

And just get him to like, hey, I would want to live this way, have this type of money, and live this type of life. It's like, okay, now I have like—

that's what I was trying to get out of him, but I, I asked something too specific. Yeah, for—

yeah, because like right there you're like, well, what does that do for you personally? And it's like, it's so broad. Like we haven't really drilled down into any of the specifics that it's going to be very difficult for him to actually answer that with any specificity because he's being So vague.

Are you talking about like kind of my view and purpose of work?

Yeah, well, here's the thing, man. If you're like, look, I don't care about industry, it's like, cool, we don't have to focus industry. But at the same time, you need a little bit of a direction of like, what do I need my day-to-day to look like? Because ultimately businesses chop down the exact same thing. You have people and you have resources. Basically the gist of it, right? It's not like your fulfillment is always going to be fulfillment, marketing is always going to be marketing, etc., etc. Like the clouds are going to keep going. But like, what are we actually looking for out of that business in order for it to make sense?

Um, I think, I mean, it's kind of a loaded question. Like, I'm just looking to kind of come in and build something, take it to the next level. Like, yeah, I agree. Um, yeah, that is like a good summation of it. How the fuck is that a loaded question? Resources.

Um, so, so it's like right here I would start to be more straightforward.

How so?

I'll be like, well, hey man, like, how can I get you to where you want to go if we don't have an idea of where we want to go?

Yeah.

Right? It's like, hey, ultimately I'm here for you, but I need to know where you're going, okay? To see if we can even get you there. So let's not focus on the how too much. Let's focus on the what, because we can figure out the how, but we need the what first. Like, what do we actually want? What do we want our day-to-day to actually look like, right? If we plan out, you know, a perfect Wednesday for you 6 months to a year from now, like, what would that be? How much would you be making? How are you spending your time?

Okay? Yeah.

Now, like, generally speaking, you're not gonna get somebody who's this vague that often.

Yeah.

But what you really need to do is just get them to commit to some type of concrete, something. 'Cause if not, like, the likelihood he's gonna be able to make a decision at the end of this call is next to nothing, 'cause he's all over the place.

Mm-hmm.

Like, that's the main issue with this guy.

I mean, right now what I've got is like a pretty good model, I feel like, where I'm like leading a small team. It's fulfilling to me, right? We're kind of in an impactful industry, right? We're impacting underserved kids, right? It's just kind of a goal of school. the purpose, the impact of my work is important. I feel like we're accomplishing that. I do like smaller to medium-sized teams. I just feel like because that's just where you can, um, where you can stand out, have your work, you know, maybe tap into your creativity and your initiatives matter a little bit more. So I kind of like that small to medium size. And I know there's different definitions of that, so probably small size, like by most definitions. Um, and then just with, just with, uh, areas, areas to grow and innovate, you know, improve product, improve customer service, and build culture.

Okay, so so far we just got a smaller, leaner team, something fulfilling. So obviously it's bringing a net positive to the world as opposed to, you know, sounds like we're not we're not looking to buy any liquor store or smoke shop. All right.

Yeah, I'll stay away from those ones for sure.

Yeah, for sure. So smaller, leaner team, something a little bit more fulfillment. Whereabouts are you based out of again?

I live in Scottsdale, Arizona.

Okay, so you got plenty of deal flow for you to be able to go visit them, bro. Yeah, yeah. And then you mentioned a few. You're like, look, either product product or a little bit more service based. It sounds like. Did you have a few ideas for those service types? Type of business, or what did that really look like?

Yeah, see, again, I wanna try to get—

I'm getting too granular.

Yeah, no, we're getting too granular.

'Cause I was trying to get something specific so that I could, so that I can kind of like pull up particular deals to be like, boom, boom, boom, boom. It's like, okay, we have these deals in place. We can go ahead and take a look at them from day one. But obviously that's just not the right move there.

Yeah, for him, I would just be like zooming out. 'Cause like, you can also kind of stress test the logic a little bit. 'Cause he's like, oh, I would want like this type of team, make sure I'm making an impact, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if he was, like, for example, in Scottsdale, Arizona, billion-dollar company Waste Management, right?

Yeah.

To where it's like, are they making an impact? They're collecting trash.

Kind of.

But the guys are rich as fuck. So if he could switch lives, or like, you know, just have and own that business and make a billion plus a year doing waste management with a giant team, and like, not quote unquote make an impact in like the school district, you know what I mean? Like, would he say yes?

Like, dude, of course.

fucking course, you would say yes. So it really comes down to, it's like, it's ultimately just like the outcome.

Yeah, but when I feel like I press on those particular ones, and I give examples to be able to like muddy the waters in terms of like, just kind of break their way of thought a little bit, they start to zoom out a little bit more of like, they start to be like, oh, maybe I do need to do a bit more soul searching for me to really understand what do I really want. You know what I mean? Because it's like, oh, is there a certain amount of money before I stop caring? Is it You know what I mean? Like, they'll start to second-guess what they actually want as opposed to giving me something a little bit more concrete.

Okay.

Especially with this guy, I'm like—

Can you give me an example of like generally like how that would go about?

Yeah, so I would, I would, I would do exactly what you would say where I would kind of give more examples. By the end of the call, they're like, you know what, maybe I do really have to think about like what I really want out of a business in order for me to understand before I start or engage with the service.

Yeah, okay. So it's like for that In my head, right? Like for this, I would always just come down to the only way we're gonna be able to get crystal clear in like what business is if we decided and we're actually looking at the businesses. Like we can use that fishing analogy. Like right now you're in a pond, you're looking at all these different things. Let's get you in the ocean.

Yeah.

And then you see all these different businesses. Now you can compare. You don't need to go and soul search on like what business that you need to do. You just need to decide you need to do a business. If we've already decided that, then we just need to go ahead and get you started. And our job is to help you find what that business is. It's gonna be hard for you to do all this soul-searching without the actual information. That's why you come to us.

Yeah.

Right? So it's like, it's what happens and what people will do in order to prevent them from actually like making the decision is they'll start thinking about basically not the decision in front of them, but what's the second, third, or fourth thing they have to do.

Yeah.

And then it's like, well, let me go and think about the 4th decision I have to make and decide on that before I make the first one, right? Like, if you come to me for sales training, you're like, bro, how am I gonna pay all these taxes once I'm making $60,000 a month? I'm like, motherfucker, we need to get there first.

Yeah.

Right? Like, we'll focus on that later, right?

Still haven't paid it, by the way.

Pay your taxes, dude. Fucking Uncle Sam's gonna come for you, bro. Gotta pay your taxes to make sure it, uh, It pays for shit streets and all that stuff you see around you. Florida's not that bad.

It's not.

This is a—

I mean, I was driving through here, man. This is like the more hillbilly— I had to go through straight hillbilly roads to get over here.

Yeah, bro. Uh, yeah, like Fort Myers, like there's definitely not like super nice areas around here. I, I much, I much more prefer like, uh, the other side of the—

East Coast, Miami.

Yeah, dude. And then plus No hurricanes over there either. Like a hurricane, like the specialist I saw for my neck—

You should bring a fucking hurricane just in case.

Yeah, dude. Like the specialist who did my neck literally had like a couple of years ago had to be flown out of his house by helicopter because a hurricane hit here. I was over in Miami. I was chilling. I didn't care. There's all the reports. I was like, hey, it was whatever.

Are you talking about my ideas for the services?

Yeah.

Yeah. Like, this is the thing. If you're like, look, I want to be able to ideally start up a business, but I don't want to go through the headache of going through all that bootstrapping. Maybe it already exists. Yeah, right. So like, in terms of it being in Scottsdale, question just left my head here. Yeah, the service that you're actually looking at potentially having or serving here.

Yeah, I'm not going to get into too much of the details. I think it's a little novel and I want to flesh it out in my head before. Like, not that I'm like worried about talking about the business, but I just obviously can't talk about it.

Sure, man.

But it's in like the senior— no, no, it's not that. It's just like, I don't want to blab on. I'm trying to make sense in my own head too. That's in like the senior industry, elderly, you know, services for the elderly folks, which there's a lot of here in Arizona.

True. Okay, okay. I have— that kind of points me in a better direction here. I'll be able to pull a few things up for you, man. Okay, so that way to start something a little bit more elderly, it's more really like home healthcare service or like— yeah. So what I was doing is I went, okay, I got like 3 main topics. It's got to be impactful, it's got to be Scottsdale, and it's got to be in particular like— okay, he gave me a general vague kind of direction to move off of. So I was— I figured in my head, I was like, the argument that I made for him, which he realized like halfway through when I started showing him businesses, he goes Oh, I get it. The business doesn't necessarily have to be exactly my startup, but it could be adjacent and it could kind of bolt on to what I already have. That's the infrastructure that's already there. So I was like, okay, so that's what I was showing to him. I was like, look, man, we can get you businesses in the general vicinity of maybe your startup idea, and then you can use that as a way for you to implement your ideas. Yeah, that's exactly what I was doing.

Okay.

And then from here, is it just more like presentation?

It's a little bit more presentation, but I think it was like 20 minutes more of me just hammering him of like, Yeah. What do you really want out of life, man? It's just like, I think that's where I kind of went with it. Halfway through, he was— because his thinking coming into the call was, I figured that I could just join and look at businesses, and if something catches my eye, then I'm gonna be all in. And I was like, well, man, we can definitely do that, but that may not necessarily be the mindset that's gonna serve you. And so I gave him the frame of like, you're thinking about a corporate position right now, If you go to that corporate position, who do you think is going to actually get the job? The person who says, I need to get this job, or the person who says, I'd like to get the job? It's like, obviously I would— I need to get the job. It's like, okay, man, so do you see how like, if we know, if it's just a matter of us prioritizing buying a business and it's gonna fulfill everything that we're looking for, we just need to switch out that want to a need. And then like, he bought in because he— like, I used the frame. I actually used the frame correctly really well on him. And then he actually started to take steps in my direction, but I think towards the tail end I just wasn't able to hook, line, sinker him, because I ran out of time to be able to go through future pace, consequence, etc., etc. So I was just playing with what I got in the moment.

So you're just really leaning on the mechanism. It's like, hey, we can— you have this vague sense of what you want, whatever it is, we can get it for you. And then drilling down, it's like you just gotta decide what you want, but then we just ran out of time.

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah, 'cause I would say like for this, like in terms of like action steps, it would just be for me, like if I'm talking to this guy, I'm really hitting hard on the hectic, right? Him not wanting that.

Okay.

Okay, 'cause it's like ultimately just people think by talking, okay? So it's like I'm gonna start to direct what he talks about. So I'm directing what he thinks about.

Like hectic, how do you mean? What did that look like?

Yeah, so really drilling down on that, 'cause that's the one thing that he can't get. besides buying a business. Then from there, like, I would really try to drill down into like, hey, like, I know you say you have all these different plans, but if everything goes right, what do you want to happen? Do you want to go to corporate? Do you like— and I'd really drill down onto that. Like, ultimately, like, how do you want to live your life, right? Like a year from now, like, how do you want things to look? Is there a certain amount of money you want to be making? Like, help me understand and really drill down onto that before I move into anything. It's like, hey man, it's like business when it comes to a lot of this is just going to be secondary just because there's a lot of different businesses out there that can fulfill the need that you want. We'll have to know what you want.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then just really drill down on that. I mean, a frame also that you can put on this guy is—

So would you just go like income, level of work, day to day? Yeah.

Like for this guy.

Yeah.

I would really try to get granular. And for him, I would also talk to him about like stepping into being more of an investor, right? Putting on the investor hat, like buying a business. And she started a business. I'm not going to put the business owner, but I'm going to put the investor frame on him.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Same frame applies like Rich Dad Poor Dad. You know, the difference between business owner and investor. It's like business owner, you're caught up in all the day-to-day. Investor, you're actually investing from a From a more passive standpoint, but you're still getting all the gains.

It's a real easy one to do. It's like, yeah, dude. And I love talking to people who are like really in that transition from being like a business owner to an actual like investor. I get to have these conversations all the time. And it's like the biggest thing is just helping them with that realization of it just takes a different level of thinking to go up to the next level. Do you get what I mean by that? And they're like, oh yeah, for sure. It's like, boom, fucking locked in. And like then that's gonna be the thread throughout the entire conversation.

Yeah, okay. Plus years after owning and operating her business operates as a hybrid structure with two complementary businesses: nonprofit and a high margin for profit entry.

One of these fucking businesses, bro.

The for-profit entity runs camps, clinics, and training leagues that serves as a feeder system for the nonprofit. Oh, this was actually something that more so like your offer takes care of. It was like a volleyball training facility. It was doing 1.8 in rev. Yeah, like 900,000. It wasn't a bad business, but I was showing it to him because he was like something with kids. I was like okay. I showed him like old people things, and then I showed him like things with kids, and I was like, here you go, dude.

I don't know, grown man saying like, I just want a business vaguely related to children. I don't know about all that, bro.

Welcome to Palm Beach Island, dude.

Palm Beach Pete, bro. Like, what are we doing?

Services that you're like, look, I have a few ideas, a few startup ideas that I have in my mind. Let's find these types of businesses that are going to be able to maybe supplement or maybe basically help me go from non-bootstrapped to something that's already existing a little bit quicker.

Right.

I hear you. That makes sense.

Another like filter would be, I don't know how you do this, but just, um, I guess a, uh, I don't know how to say this. I guess what's tricky, I guess this is the, an overarching theme in business in general right now. And I know things are always overplayed is what's gonna get like, you know, what's the world gonna look like a couple years from now? None of us know. I do get a little worried about, I mean, I know this is just the inherent risk. Um, yeah, it's driver business. I mean, shoot, Autonomy in Phoenix is, I think you said Florida, right, Ezra? You guys have like, you guys have some of those services, right? Running around Florida.

Like, I haven't seen them, but I'm sure maybe in Miami, probably.

Yeah. Yeah, they are. They're they're all over the place, and I don't see.

So I mean, part of my answer, Zach, like I want to maybe put it on you, man. If you have a grandmother, do you want to put her in something that's an autonomous car to send her to a doctor's appointment? I mean, I personally wouldn't. I'd probably have a little bit of hesitation. It'd probably take me about I don't know maybe a lifetime before I feel comfortable putting my elderly grandmother into an autonomous car. Yeah, it's kind of scary.

I don't know, man. I think I might be a little earlier than you on that. Yeah, I agree with Grandma. It's different with Grandma. I don't know for sure, but yeah, I don't know. That is a filter of mine in this is like, yeah, I just try to think through what the next, you know, 5 or 10 years look like and see and figure out, you know, I hesitate to say like I want to get into the growth industry because it's just, I just have to think through that. That's where I'm a little tricky when it comes to like not like kind of being agnostic to the industry, but I got to think through each use case, you know?

Yeah, man. When you said that, I was like, dude, I was going to shoot myself in the head. It's like I got to think through each use case of like what industry and how it can be affected by AI. I think I did a good job at like reframing of like ownership is ultimately going to you more leverage. Yeah. When it comes to the use case, it doesn't— here's the thing. Do you feel like you're going to have more leverage? Like, let's say tomorrow, right? For example, either those autonomous cars do come out or let's say, you know, you've got, I don't know, robots come over that fix your roof, right? Like, it gets to that point, right? It's like those services are always going to be needed. The only difference that we're talking about is who has the most leverage in those situations. Sure. It's like the guy who owns the company that actually owns the asset regardless of the environment. That's the person who benefits the most.

Yeah.

It's like we can contemplate over like, hey man, if I go to corporate, what does that look like? Is that safer? It's like You're probably— I mean, it's safe to say if you just read a headline or two, like, AI is probably coming for a good amount of those jobs regardless, right? So if we're talking about, you know, what do we want it to look like, it's like the guy with the ownership always cares, uh, carries the most leverage in any given situation.

Yeah, yeah, right. That's right. Yeah, no, I know that's, um, like, even stepping away from my current company, like, I'm still retaining my equity first, you know, for sure, right? Which, you know, by the way, I, um, I'm also looking at this from a, like, selling the business point of view too with you guys.

So when that time comes, I think I could have done a better job of just like asking him questions.

Yeah, I just pushed him a lot.

Do you feel like AI is going to put you more at risk if you go the corporate route?

Yeah, well, it's like with that too. Also, if we put the investor frame on him, it's like ultimately, when do people— when were the best investments ever made?

Yeah, before the wave comes.

Well, it's like when there's fucking blood in the street, when there's uncertainty. If everyone thought that everything was going to be hunky-dory, dude, it's like there's no actual investments to be made, right? Like there's no spread. So it's like the most wealth was created like during the Great Depression. It was blood in the streets. So it comes down to right now, this uncertainty. If you were completely certain over there without all the knowledge, like bro, you wouldn't even need us. And I'll tell you, you probably shouldn't even buy a business. The fact that there is uncertainty, there's a barrier to entry, that's a good thing.

Yeah.

Right? It's like, what are we talking about here? It's like you just have to decide. It's like I know you're thinking about all these different businesses right now. It's like dude, we're a little bit too far. We need to just decide, hey, we're going to buy a business. And then once we lay out all the business in front of you, that decision is going to be much easier. You can weigh the pros and cons. Right now you're trying to make a decision without the actual information.

Yeah.

Right. So it's like you just need to pull back the— basically, at least from a lot of your calls, what I'm seeing is we kind of make the decision about like, oh, like what business versus just I am going to buy a business. So we need to take a big step back. It's like there's no way you could even know what business. because you don't have the information.

Yeah.

You pay us for the information, right? So then like, that's the, that's the conversation. I have to do this a lot with the Facility Founders people because like we do like a report of like, hey, this is what facility your size with the competitive analysis should make. And they're like, oh, but what about this? It's like, hey, this is just an overview, right? These things are going to change. We just do that to know it's profitable. Now it's time for you to come in and do the work. And the only way we're going to know what this is for sure Is if you come in and you do what we tell you to do. So what I need from you is to actually come in, you to put in the work, you to commit, right? So it's like, that's the, that's the conversation you're having.

What I could do is I can still walk you through the full scope. I mean, if you only have about 9 minutes here, completely understandable, man. Like, time is, time is short for a lot of people these days.

I've got a little more time.

Okay. I'd like to be able to—

I've got at least 20.

Okay. I'd at least like to kind of go through the platform to be able to showcase a good amount of this so that this way you have a little bit of a firmed up understanding. But what I will say, man, is, is If we already know that we're looking to be able to go ahead and make sure we're putting ourselves where we still want to ideally be a business owner, right? And then we just don't want to go through the headaches. If it's a possibility, it's just about putting ourselves in the position where we can make that happen.

Right.

If you tell yourself if, like, for example, if, you know, you're— you've got 2 guys and we can even use a corporate example, right? It's like if you and somebody else are gunning for the same job, one guy says, I need to be able to get this job versus you who go, if I get the job, it would be nice. Like, who do you feel like is going to win?

Yeah, sure. The guy who needs it.

Right. So it's like when we're talking about this business acquisition process, it's like you telling yourself if it's probably not going to be the most beneficial if we're trying to be able to make sure we're getting ourselves in this business, we're putting ourselves in the best possible position. But it's only just until we recognize like, A, it's possible, and B, I really do want it. All the other stuff is circumstantial. Like, we can figure that out.

Okay. So there's not a world where like we've got capital and we're waiting for the right opportunity to come along and say, ooh, this one might pique our interest, like let's go after that one type of thing?

If you don't put yourself in that position, like let's say we're trying to go fishing, right? And everybody we know is out there in the ocean and they're in the same fishing hole, right? They put their boats out, they're in the same fishing hole, and we're trying to catch a fish that we know is a little bit more special. It's like if everybody's fishing in that same area, which is like on market platforms, like let's say BizBuySell, LootNet, and the people who are just kind of like casting lines from the beach, if those people are all in the same area, right, it's a little bit saturated.

Totally.

And if we're trying to be able to catch a particular fish where we're like, man, I'm industry agnostic, I'm just looking for this rare unicorn that's kind of like is going to fit all these boxes, we're probably going to have to go a little bit of a different direction, right? Given like off-market deals, putting ourselves in a little bit better position where it's a little bit more of an active effort.

Yeah.

So like you could, you could be like, look, I've got a year's worth where I'm going to sit on, sit on my butt and like if something comes, like it's a good, it's a good place to be in. But like if we're just not putting ourselves in that position to be able to find something, it's a little bit less likely. Does that make sense?

It does. But where I'm coming from is like I'm not talking about the matter of like buying. I'm going to probably need to cover my bases regardless, right? Like at some point here soon, I'll either, you know, take one of these jobs, start something new. It'd be nice to see like if anything catches my eye here, and this is a route I want to take. So like yeah, I'd be interested in. I forget you guys model. Like I know, like I did scroll on Biz myself just when I was taking this, you know, just looking into this process. And yeah, there's not much. And as far as the whole catching your eye unicorn, like I didn't see anything that caught my eye there. It's part of why I reached out to you guys. So like yeah, there's a world where I would like to progress and kind of go down this and go down this road. But at the same time, like I got to cover my bases in case I don't find anything I align with or sparks my interest. So let's say like yeah, build or why I like to get to apply an interview.

Yeah, I mean, he's offsetting you.

He's like, he's playing for failure.

Yeah, fair enough.

Yeah, right. Like, that's, that's where it's like burn the boats. Yeah, well, it's like even burn the boats, or it's just like, well, let's take a step back, man. Like, you're just saying like, hey, if I don't get it, like, therefore I want to have this job. Where are you making that decision from? Is it a place of like, you know, you feel like things are gonna work out? Is it more of like a fear of failure type of thing?

It's fear of failure, yeah.

Right? And it's like, who do you feel like is gonna actually get the result?

The guy who's fear of failure, or the guy who's actually confident in being able to actually get this done?

Yeah, and it just comes down to, yeah, just try to move him a little, 'cause like that's where he's making that decision right now, from a place of fear. And it's like, hey, the fact that you are a bit fearful, and you're a bit unsure about what to invest in, again, back to, where do people make their money? When people are unsure. When most people are unsure, And it's the people who act anyways. That's how they make all their money.

Yeah, right.

Like all the big businesses out there, like they came out in places where it's like everyone was unsure and then they did it anyways. So that's why that investor frame is super versatile.

If like cash flow is the immediate thing that we're looking for, it's like we know either one of two things happen. Either whatever startup idea comes and then you're able to replace your income immediately, which it's probably gonna be significantly harder just given that it's a startup, or we find a corporate gig. But regardless of the two, like let's say we go through the corporate gig route, we're still going to be able to have a position where we're continuously fishing. Like let's say you go through this corporate route. Let's say even if you do go through that corporate route, do you feel like you're still going to want to look for a particular business?

It depends. I mean, gosh, it depends where you go. I'm not going to go take like a BDR role, you know. In that case, like heck yeah, it would be more— it would be a more meaningful role I'd step into. And honestly, probably not at that point, at least for— at least indefinitely. Long term, I'm an entrepreneur long term, of course. But I think if I were to take corporate gig, I would probably. You know the ones I'm referring to.

I smack them around.

I'd need to explore that.

Yeah, I smack them around. I'm like, "Well, why? Why is it? Why would you still want to?" Like I get into it.

Yeah, very cool.

Then I would probably halt the process.

Okay, and so you feel like you would just be completely fine with being completely in the corporate world, but never stepping out of that? Because if if you're that guy, then I tell you, I'll be the first guy to tell you, like this is probably not the thing for you.

Yeah, I know you're not that guy. That's not. I agree.

Like I wouldn't.

I'm not going to step in and never get out. So like yeah, long term, that's what I'm saying for sure. But immediately when I was kind of hopping in, then. I would probably pause. At least again, like, I'm not— it's not a— it's not like a big bank. Like, I'm joining like a Series B startup, so like we'd have to move. And I would honestly feel like I'm not being a good steward of this, you know, leadership role.

The role. Yeah, yeah, fair enough.

One foot in, one foot out. So for this conversation though, like, yeah, we can assume—

I mean, because we can assume, right?

But here's the issue. Like, he, he keeps on— like, he's in the realm of, uh, like worst-case scenario, Plan C, like ticking all his boxes, a long-term plan. It's like, hey man, if we are able to get you A, B, and C, like we do with other clients, and you never even have to do a corporate role.

Yeah.

Is that something you would even be open to? Because I can tell you right now, people come to me every single day here to leave their corporate role, and you're looking to go into one.

Yeah, well, what I— the frame I took for him was, do you feel like once you're actually in that corporate role, do you feel like it's gonna be easier or harder for you to get out? And he's like, yeah, it's gonna be harder. It's like, yeah, man, so we already know if we're putting ourselves in a position where it's gonna get harder for us to get out, Why don't we actually go for the thing that we're gunning for in the first place? Like, prioritize it immediately. Well, I think we overspoke with each other on this call because it was— he was like, oh no, I have a year for me to be able to do it. And I'm like, dude, we can do it in a year. Like, that's not the issue. Like, we could do that.

So I think it's just like making a hypothetical, like, hey, if we were able to tick all your boxes— I know you sitting right there, you don't know, right? And that's why you're planning all these different things. But we're over here, like, I've done it thousands of times before. So if we're able to do that, is that something that you would just pursue plan A rather than B, C, D, and F?

Yeah.

Okay. It's like, yeah, of course. It's like, well, why of course? It's not so obvious, man. It's like boom, boom, boom. And then just move it on. So it's like he's just speaking out of a place of not knowing, which fair fucking enough. That's why he's on the call. And then out of a place of fear. So you just kind of have to point that out and just say like, hey, if we're able to get you this, would you even be considering that? Well, no. Well, why not? It's like, how? Because, right? And then it's like you can just go ahead and isolate fear.

Yeah, it's tricky. Like, when you guys take people in, do you guys want people who are committed, um, to the process, the business, like only? And that's the, that's the only goal? Or like, do you guys kind of frown upon having, uh, you know, kind of going in and seeing what's out there?

Not necessarily, man. It's just I don't want to be able to give you a result if your mindset isn't just there for you to be able to do it. Like, I don't want to be like, look, man, I can for sure—

Yeah, because like the problem is like he just doesn't understand like what what he wants and like what you're getting at.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like, because like if somebody asks me a question like that, it's like, do you guys look down, frown upon it? It's like, what they do, we're not going to put any type of moral statement on like what you want to do. We're just here to facilitate whatever you want.

Yeah.

Right. So you're sitting here telling me about Plan B, C, D, and F, and I know I can get you Plan A. So we're going to plan for Plan A. So like, that's— I think that's where the disconnect is. It was. Yeah.

Right. Gets you a business that checks all the boxes. But if you're kind of halfway checked out of like, does this or does this not make sense for me? It's like, what type of results do you feel like you're going to get?

Yeah, no, I hear you.

But here's what I'll do.

That's because then it makes him like, like you're basically—

DQing him to him. Yeah.

Like on a certain degree, like he doesn't know what's possible and we're kind of disqualifying him.

Yeah.

Because he doesn't know. And he's like doing like 3, he's planning like 3 things down basically.

Yeah.

So like, that's the main issue there. It's like, hey man, it's like, I understand right now you're planning for failure because you don't have the knowledge. I have the knowledge. We don't have to plan for failure.

Well, how do I, how do I actually give that to him? Like, obviously I pitched a decent amount, like a little bit here and there, but like, how do I actually like give him that other than being like—

You just gotta make it a realm of hypotheticals.

Yeah, the hypothetical first, and then if he's like, if he still has those, if he still is apprehensive, then just cover that as a fear.

Yeah, well, it's like, first and foremost, I just want to understand, like, first, like, how much would he be making in his corporate job? Oh, like, how much would he be making on that? So if, like, if there's a way that you can own a business that grows, it makes that much, if not more, and you could do— tick all these boxes, would you still be considering this corporate thing, or would you just do the business? It's like, oh, I'll just do the business. It's like, boom, just immediately you take it off the table. So he's only entertaining the corporate stuff because he doesn't understand how to buy a business, you know what I mean? So he just doesn't know how to do it, which is like Fucking fair enough. Like, that's why he's here. So it's just making that the realm of the conversation. Okay.

I'll still, regardless, man, I'll give you the A to Z kind of rundown of like the scale we're doing here so that you walk away with a little bit more information. And then I'll try to show you a few more businesses. What I'll caveat by all of that by saying like, don't discount yourself just because you're like, look, man, I need to be able to get cash flowing right now, which is 100% understandable, man. But at the same time, if you tell yourself like, look, I'm eventually gonna settle for less and then get to something what I truly want, when you actually have the opportunity to do it right now, I'd say it's like, man, do it though right now, as opposed to maybe pushing this off and being like, let me see how corporate goes for about 5 to 15 years. You know what I mean?

I know, I do hear you. And I've got, like, I'm taking my time with it. And like I said, right now I'm still in the CEO seat. It's just, and I've got a little bit of flexibility when I can transition out.

Yeah, well, how long do you feel like you could, like, how long realistically do you feel like you could put up with maybe the politics, maybe what's going on? Like, how much of a run rate would you have?

That's a good question. It's already been so long. I think probably end of the year.

Okay, so we do have some bit of time here. We've got to take a look. Okay, well, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna show you how we're gonna be able to go into the presentation. Yeah, because I was like, I was like, all right, I'll just cover the presentation. I'll be like, I got till the end of the year. I know what the slide deck says. It's like 6 to 8 months. I'm like, dude, do you feel like you can carry yourself over for the next 3 months after like the 3 months you call it quits with that company? He's like, yes. So I get buy-in. I get commitment of like, okay, 6 to 8 months does work for you. That timeline does feel appropriate. So it's like I eventually got the buy-in of like, and then I just, while I was pitching, I was like, man, I have 100% confidence that we're gonna be able to do this for you in that certain time period. You have the capital, you have the capacity, you have, you have everything aligned for you to be able to make sure it succeeds. So like, I just gave him conviction to a point where it was like he was pretty much bought in at the end.

Mm-hmm.

Towards the tail end, I didn't smack him around too much. I maybe reiterated the fact that I was like, dude, you have the capacity to be able to do it. It's just deciding that you want to go all in on this. And then we can be able to actually make that work for you. So like I sent him agreement, I sent him next steps, but eventually I ran out of time. So I was like, okay, we got to go.

Because I think like the— well, I'm always thinking about like, what's the easiest path? Like, so for him it's like, oh, well, you need to decide first and foremost that you're 100% in on a business before it's like if there are businesses out there that would do everything you want, would you take that over everything else? That's a much easier ask. Versus like in his mind, because he sees the business as a bit more of a risk, at least that's what it comes across, right? Like you see, like if they're doing corporate, if he's talking about corporate, getting an actual job, that's security generally.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I just need to make it in the realm of like hypothetical possibilities. Like, hey, if you could tick all the boxes in a business, not deal with the headache of starting one, make the money that corporate would do, it ticks all your boxes. Are we still pushing that off or is that something we'd want to do? It's like, oh, it's something I would still want to do, like, right away. It's like, why right away?

Yeah.

Like, why is that something? It's like, I understand right there you're sitting there and you don't know how you can make that reality. That's why people come to us, right? So that's why I need to understand what you want.

Yeah, fair enough.

Yeah. Okay. So you just really need to drill down on it. But like overall, like the way— like it's kind of a— it's a little bit of a perplexing conversation, a little bit, because he's just all over the place.

Yeah.

Right? Just generally. And I got really good at dealing with people like this, with real estate agents. They're a very, very squirrely bunch. Very squirrely bunch. You can never tie them down on anything. So I have a lot of experience tying down the people who just have, like, they're just so up in the air in terms of like what they want. So yeah, you just need to drill them down to concretes, make it in the realm of hypotheticals. And yeah, you probably could have—

Yeah, cut everything and then just—

Yeah, cut this call time down quite a bit. And then that would've gave you the time to handle his concerns on the backend.

Yeah, okay.

All right, cool, cool, cool.

Is that helpful?

Yeah.

Hell yeah, bro.