556 - How to stand out as a purpose-led brand with brand strategist Haley Berryman

Welcome back to the podcast. I have an epic interview today and I want to share with you. We're going to be exploring how to stand out as a purpose led brand with brand strategist Hailey Berryman. Hayley is a brand strategist and copywriter with over 16 years experience in the marketing world. She's also a curious Aquarian, aspiring minimalist and proud mama of two little people. Hayley has a soft spot for purpose led brands and has collaborated with more than 60 diverse businesses from fashion week to physios, baby goods and baby bedding and accountants and astrologers. Baby Hayley's on a mission to help her clients claim their uniqueness and lead with their values and do it with integrity so they can make more money and have a meaningful impact in the world. On today's episode, we dive into what actually is brand strategy, what makes up brand strategy and why you should care about it, the common misconceptions about brand strategy and your marketing, how to define a purpose led brand and how to lead with your values so then you can attract the right clients. Why it's crucial to understand and align your core values with your marketing efforts and the signs that your brand strategy isn't up to scratch and what businesses need to watch out for to know that whether it's time to improve your strategy and we dive into this and so much more. It's such an awesome interview. So let me introduce you to the beautiful Hayley Berryman. Welcome to the Next Level Life podcast with Christine Corcoran. This podcast is made for the powerhouse business women who are ready to ignite their fullest potential. This is where we will dive deep into the mindset breakthroughs and sprinkle in some kick up the butt motivation so you can scale your business with confidence and clarity. Whether you're craving more income, impact or inspiration, this podcast will be your ultimate resource for all things next level. Listen in as we have authentic conversations with game changing female entrepreneurs as we reveal the secrets of what it takes to rise and thrive. So go ahead, ignite your inner fire and let's get you taking massive aligned action. Are you ready to elevate? Let's go. I cannot wait to dive into this conversation. Talking all things brand strategy, copywriting, messaging with the beautiful Haley Berryman. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. Lovely.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here, so excited.

For this conversation because I feel like messaging is getting like this whole like rebrand itself. Like everyone just keeps talking about messaging at the moment. And talking about AI and how they utilize that within their messaging. And one of the things that I've talked to you so much about is brand strategy, and I feel like it's something that needs to get talked about more. So I really wanted to bring you on the podcast to explore this because we. One of the things I always talk to my clients about is really utilizing their values when it comes to communicating their value and how they're different. And I know that you love to do this too, so I knew it'd be a really beautiful conversation for us to explore. So to kick things off, I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about your introduction to brand strategy, because I know you've been a copywriter for a really long time, like 16 years experience in the marketing world, and you've worked with so many different diverse businesses. But tell us a little bit about the journey. Where did you discover brand strategy? Where did you get into it and how does it now play out in your business now?

Of course. Yes. So I have been in marketing for over 16 years. I, well, actually got out of school, wanted to go into radio journalism, didn't pass the interview round, decided to go to university and do a business degree instead. And that's where I discovered marketing and kind of fell in love with it. I was really drawn to the marketing psychology subjects and understanding how and why people think and act the way they do and why they're drawn to some brands over others. And so that kind of set me off on that trajectory. And I started out working as, you know, baby marketing coordinators and assistants in the travel industry, clothing brands, an insurance broker, fashion week in Melbourne, expos events, like loads of different industries. I never really honed in on a niche. But, you know, in those roles, especially as a junior in marketing, you'd always be given like the copywriting job. So they'd be like, can you write a brochure or can you update the website? Like, you'd always be given those writing jobs. And it really developed as part of. Of my skill set. And I think, like, what I noticed is sometimes I didn't always have the context of why we were doing things. And I'm such a curious person. Like, I love to know the why behind certain things and understand what it means in the context of, you know, what's going on with that brand. So, yeah, I kind of found that that was lacking in a lot of places. And even as I moved up through marketing and became a senior marketing manager, like the, the corporate environment wasn't always meeting those needs for like context and creativity. And I sometimes felt like there wasn't a reason for doing things beyond profit. And what would happen sometimes is, you know, like I'd have creative ideas or want to innovate and really bring brand values into the picture and really build a bigger experience for the brands. But like they would always get pushed to the side in favor of, you know, let's do things the way we've always done it and let's play it safe. So we didn't really get to push many boundaries. Yeah. And it really felt like profit was the only metric that actually mattered, even though they sort of said that other things mattered.

I'll give the corporate.

Yeah, good old corporate. So, you know, it was a little bit disheartening because I thought maybe if I get into a leadership position and a management role, I will have more influence and be able to do this. And I'm sure in some companies that does happen. But you know, from my experience it wasn't easy. And there was always a board of directors or some higher up group of unfortunately usually middle aged white guys who would, you know, kind of go with the same old thing that always done. So I guess, you know, I lost a little bit of that sparkle and enthusiasm for what I was doing and why I loved marketing, which was all about connecting to customers and helping people find brands they might not have otherwise found to like solve a problem in their life. And then what happened is I suddenly got made redundant and at the time I was really hurt by it. I was, I took it personally. I cried my eyeballs out in the HR office, like uncontrollably. It was crazy. And then I actually thought, you know, after some reflection I was like, okay, no, this is actually a redirection. And it was probably what I secretly wanted. Like I was secretly thinking so much of this on the inside and, and so yeah, that's when I started freelancing. And for me it was about being able to make more conscious choices about how I would use my marketing experience and for which kind of brands and make sure I was using my powers for good, not evil. So yeah, off I went and started working more exclusively with purposely brands, which is kind of where I'm at now. And they're both a cross service and product based and they have a really deep care for the things that they're doing in the world. So strategy is always baked into it. You know, like we always think about their purpose, what they're doing and why they're doing it. And how they can add value to people's lives. So that kind of excites me. And yeah, I think now more than ever we kind of need that because people want to deal with authentic brands that they can trust, and that's kind of where strategy comes in. It's the foundation for it all. So, yeah, that's a little bit of my journey. And yeah, I love it.

So good. And I love that. Like, I feel like you do, you do notice the difference between a campaign that's actually come from that purpose led, heart led, like driven by what's really important to them, versus a. Oh, let's just pull together a sale. Let's just pull together a marketing campaign and just throw it out there and just hope that it makes the profit. Right. Like, I feel like you really tell the difference with that. Like, what are some of the things that you notice? So actually maybe we should just take a step and just. Can you just explore or explain in simple terms what is. What is brand strategy? So if those are the unfamiliar. How do you define brand strategy?

Yeah, of course. So brand strategy. I'll rewind a little bit because we can't really talk about brand strategy without talking about brand. So I want to go back from that and explain it. So essentially, what a brand is overall as a set of associations and people's minds. So brands are made in the mind of the customers. It's all perception. So I wanted to do a quick perception exercise with you because I think this illustrates it really well. So, yeah, let's think of a brand. It could be a celebrity, a brand you buy from and. Yeah, let me know who that is.

Well, I mean, we. I don't know how you spent your weekend. I spent my weekend listening to the Tortured Poets department. Yeah, let's go with Taylor Swift.

Yeah, Taylor Swift. She's an amazing brand for sure. So, so huge. So, yeah, love it. I did listen to it. I'm not a. I'm not a full swifty. I'll let you know. But I definitely did listen to it. So anyway, let me get you to say a few things about that brand. So when we say the word Taylor Swift and your listeners can do this too, what are three things that come to mind that you associate with her as a brand?

Wow. Okay. So I look at it a bit very differently, and I feel like sometimes people have mixed perceptions of her, but I look at, like, incredible businesswoman. Like, she is so methodical in the way that she thinks about every part of her business. And I just love that, like, the Way that she put out her multiple albums and then actually shared, like, sorry, then went into the concerts, but then also put the concert out on tv, and then, like, there was so many different multiple pieces of the puzzle that she. That she did. So I. I think she's an incredible businesswoman. I think she also has this real incredible knack with connecting with her customers on a really personal level, and I think that that's really amazing. Like, and it's really interesting to see other stars starting to do that now. It's almost like they're trying to replicate what Taylor's created. But she goes above and beyond for her customers and, like, really thinks about them as her people and she's creating for them. And also the other thing, the third thing would probably be how she reinvents herself. It's pretty awesome.

Cool. All right, so I'm hearing businesswoman, personal connection, like, good connection with her audience and reinvention artist, let's say. Okay, cool. Well, when I think of Taylor Swift, I was just kind of riffing three quick things that I could think of, and for me, like, the first thing that came to mind was girly. The next thing that came to mind was pop. And then the third thing I thought about was businesswoman as well, because I did watch the documentary, and I remember that completely changed my perception on her as an artist, and I became a little bit obsessed. So. So we're. So who's right? Like, who is right about this brand?

I don't know.

Yeah, we're all right. Okay. So, yeah, both of us are, because that's the associations we have, and where brand strategy comes in is how we shape those perceptions. Okay. So, like, Taylor Swift obviously, has. We both aligned on the businesswoman angle. So that has been crafted really well, and I think a lot of people would agree with that. And then I'm sure there's a lot of common things that people all think about when they think of Taylor Swift. And that's not by mistake. That's not by chance. That is strategic. So, you know, that is where brand strategy comes in, and it's. And, you know, as small business owners, as individuals, as brands, as products, whatever we are, you know, that is how we can shape perceptions is through the brand strategy. So, yeah, that's kind of a bit of a way to illustrate it. I think it kind of helps you see that we don't always control it. And if we say some other brands, we might say completely different things. And then, you know, you've kind of got a problem. Like, you're like, okay, things are fragmented. People aren't all aligned on what we stand for and what we mean. So I think it's a really fun exercise to do even just as yourself as a personal brand. Go and ask a few friends and see what three words they associate with you and see if they match up. See what people are thinking of your content out there because that's the perception of your brand.

Love this. This is so good because recently I've been going back through all the like feedback and testimonials from my masterminds and also like a couple of surveys that I put out over the last couple of months and it's been super interesting. The like, the associations and the differ of like the certain language that they're using to describe me and what I bring to the table and those types of things. And it's so like that fits into it because I'm now in the process of like really rethinking my brand. So I love that, I love that that you shared that because I remember years ago, I remember hearing someone say that, like, you know, ask people in your life, like three words to describe you. And I remember doing that at the time. But now that I've built, I've been in business a lot longer. It's really beautiful. We have to do that with customers or people who are perceiving you online because that actually helps you to see what, what am I putting out there? Because it's so hard to do that from your own perspective. Like, it's so hard to sit there and be like, I think I'm putting out this information, I think I'm sharing this consistently. But is this actually resonating? Is, is it actually landing?

So, yeah.

So what are some of those things that you notice for a brand strategy that you feel like or a business should start to notice when they recognize or actually our brand strategy is not aligned.

Yeah. So like quite often people won't even have a brand strategy, if I'm honest. Like, people will not have written it down. So to take I guess the description a little bit further, it is that document, like it's that document that captures who you are and who you serve and how you present your brand to the world. Your voice, your vision, your mission, your values. Like there's a bunch of stuff in it and it is your go to guide for the business and it helps you stay consistent. So that's going to direct your future and define how you present your brand to the world. So if you don't have it on paper that's definitely a sign that you might need one. Also, you know, there's a lot of things that can happen in business that you might notice and it could point to a brand strategy gap. So if you feel like your messaging is inconsistent or it's not really aligning with your values or it's, you know, you're spending way too much time trying to cobble together your website copy or your social posts, you know, like that could be a symptom that you don't have the brand and messaging strategy in place. Because when you have that, of course that starts to flow a lot more easily. You know, if sales are inconsistent and you're struggling to retain your customers, that could also be a sign maybe the customers aren't seeing the value that you provide and they're not really understanding it. So you know, what a brand strategy covers is that as well. You know, it's the value you provide and then how it adds value to the customers lives. Right. It's not just here's a feature that's really helpful, like we're going to have one to one calls. We want to think like why? Like so that, what impact does it have? You know, and you do the, so that test or so what test? I do that with a lot of my copywriting and it's just at the end of every single feature saying so that you can have direct access when you get stuck on things and you never have to feel alone in business or whatever those pain points are for the customer. Like you are going to be tapping into those. So you know, if you're not getting the sales, people aren't understanding the value provide, you want to communicate that better. I think also in the competitive landscape, like if you notice competitors are coming in or you're watching, you know, Instagram scrolling and you're just thinking, oh my God, these guys are doing so good. Like I don't know how to stand out against them. Like that could be a sign as well. Because when you have your strategy in place, you know what makes you different and you're clear on it and you're confident in that. So yeah, there's a lot of symptoms. It could be if you have a team, the team are disengaged, you know that you're struggling to unite people, they don't know what the hell you're working towards. So you know that's a problem as well. And then if you're just having overwhelm, like I think we all get that at times in business anyway, but it's sort of when that self doubt or uncertainty creeps in there or like you know, you're struggling to make decisions and you're just not sure which to say yes or no. Like you know you need, you can have a guide that can help drive your decision making and it makes everything easier. Like if you can open your brand strategy and just look at your purpose and go, what are we striving for? Why do we exist beyond profit? And look at that question again, you can start to make a really strong decision and not doubt yourself. So yeah, there's heaps of cool ways that can support your business.

I love everything that you just said. Love everything. Because you're right. Like it does actually support, like it's your North Star, right. Like it keeps you in the right direction, it keeps you unstuck. Like it helps you get super clear on how you're communicating your message. Like it's all pieces that go along with it and keeps your brand consistent. Right? Because then that actually is what creates that presence and influence is because that consistency, like when we think about big brands we, we think about ones that have stayed consistent to their message ongoing. Right. Like they've been praying that consistently. Would you agree?

Yeah, definitely. And I think consistency is a marker of trust. You know, people don't trust people that are really erratic. You know, like if someone walks into the room and one minute they're like, hey, so nice to meet you. And then the next minute they're like at the bar taking shots and I'm thinking like, hang on, who was this? I thought I just met this really nice person who's listening really attentively and suddenly they've gone all wild like, or like you see them next time and they're completely change their clothes and outfit. Like, you know, I'm all about a reinvention but as a brand, like you've got to be considered with that. Like the consistency definitely does help build trust and yeah, it just makes decisions easier like for consumers too. Like we don't want to have to think really, we're already overwhelmed. We just want to know what we're getting often and we want it to be clear. Like we want to see what we're getting without having to jump through hoops.

Yeah, yeah, 100 agree. And I think that some people like it's okay to be multifaceted but I think it's about like if you had a brand strategy, like if you're service based and you have a brand strategy, you're more likely to stay strong to that message and still be Multi passionate. But there'll be threads that move through it. Like, would that be a good way to describe it?

Definitely, yeah. 100. And I think, like, a misconception with brand strategy as well is that they're static and that they have to stay the same. Like, they 100% don't. Like, brands are alive. Brands evolve and they evolve with you. And especially if you're a personal brand, a solopreneur service provider, like, you are a human. You are going to have so many different facets to who you are and what's important to you. That will change over time based on your life, circumstances, things that happen to you, clients you experience, lessons you learn. Like, you know, everything is going to evolve. So it is important to review that strategy and know that it can shift with you. Like, but you probably are going to do that gradually over time. It's maybe not going to be a big, massive, you know, abrupt change. And I think that that's completely fine and very normal. Like, it's so normal to evolve. Like, even now, I'm actually redoing my brand strategy, to be honest. I've had. I've actually suffered some of the symptoms where I'm kind of, like, finding it hard to show up at times. Like, I know what I love and what I want to talk about, but, you know, I'm still like, is this the right audience? And I'm questioning things. So what that means to me is, get your brand strategy open, Hayley, and look at it, like, go and do it again. And is this right? Like, are these the people you want to talk to? So, yeah, I'm evolving at the moment, too. And it's. It does happen. It happens often. And I think you need to be open to that.

I love that you're talking about this because one of the things that. One of the misconceptions I see in business that really frustrates me is I see people go, oh, I have to go back to thinking about our ideal client again. Like, yes, you bloody do.

That is the whole point of business, like, to serve clients and help people.

Right.

Or give them something they need. Like, come on.

Exactly. Yes, you do go back and figure out who not working. And if you're not, you don't have a North Star to work towards. And obviously something's not working the foundations.

So 100%. Yeah. I mean, like, at the end of the day, if we're in business, we're here to communicate something and connect to the right people. If we don't. Don't know who These are. And we can't connect to them. We don't have a business. Like it's as simple as that. So yes, you have to go back and know your audience.

I love that you agree. Yeah, amazing. So I'd love to know like, when it comes to businesses and like, let's say that I don't have a huge marketing budget because like there's a different levels of business where some people might have a huge marketing budget to walk with, work with to really create a strong brand. What would be some cost effective ways to start building a strong brand now?

Yeah, I think you can start now and you don't have to have a lot of money. It definitely is an art and it's a practice that people train a lot in to do. And you know, we as strategists know what to look for and how to do research and ask really weird questions and you know, get under people's skin. But like, you know, if you were just starting out without a budget, I think going inward and going within is a really, really good start and you're going to know yourself better than anyone else. So yeah, to be successful in marketing and ultimately have a successful business, you need to know and nail who you are first. And that really is what I would call the core of your brand strategy, which is your vision. It's what you imagine for the future of the world and the world you'd want to live in. It's your mission, it's how you are showing up and acting day to day to move closer to that vision. Even if it could never be achieved, that's okay, it doesn't have to be achieved. It's not a goal, it's a vision. So yeah, your vision, your mission, your values. So the things that matter to you, what you stand by, what you believe in, how you behave, like they're going to drive a lot of things and you can work on those. I do have a little freebie on my website actually, which has, I can't remember, it's like 100 or so brand values that you can look at and that's a really nice place to start brainstorming and narrowing those down and thinking how can I live by these values? And then your purpose. So your purpose is sort of what your why beyond profit. And it's usually just a short statement of like what you're doing. So for me, my purpose centers around words for a better world. It's about using words to create a better future and do good things. And I also actually am playing with this Idea of fearlessly better. So doing things fearlessly better in a way that is, you know, stepping into your own uniqueness and owning who you are as a brand and then, you know, doing things better. So, you know, those are kind of some ideas of the core things you could start with. And I think once you know those and you feel quite centered in them, things do start to get a bit easier. But there is a lot more to the process, unfortunately. So that's the core of who you are. And then, you know, you want to look at positioning. So where you are in the market, that would be the thing I do next. So it's looking at all your competitors, seeing what they do well, what they don't do well, where there's gaps, where you can step in, what you do better than the others, all of that stuff. So mapping that out is really important. And then, yeah, I mean, then you go into your audience, you know, you start to get to know who they are and what they value and how they describe their challenges and what dreams and desires they have. And, you know, a really big thing, especially as a copywriter, is voice of customer. So doing voice of customer research basically means doing online surveys or interviews and not just making up words, like using the words that people are saying to describe their problems and dreams. So that's really important too. And, you know, you can do that pretty quickly and easily if you just have a chat to a few people with the right questions, you can get some good intel. So, you know, you can walk through these steps on your own. Definitely. It does take time, and it does. It's gonna. You're gonna face frustrations, and you're definitely gonna face, like, procrastination and doubt and delay and all those fun things, because we don't wanna sometimes face ourselves and do this work. It is a little bit hard, and sometimes it's hard to pull out the things you need to be looking at. And I think, yeah, that's when having an outside perspective can be super, super helpful. But, yeah, start with within. Like, if you could go within and focus on who you are, your inner world, and stop getting caught up in marketing trends and tactics, like, that is gonna be a really good start for you because you're gonna start making aligned decisions and start moving towards the business you want to create. So, yeah, yeah, you're so right.

And I think, like, comparison can really play in. In a negative way in that space because, like, when we often do that market research and we look at where we're positioning ourselves or what else is Actually out there. It could easily get caught up in comparison and just be like, oh my God. But they've got. This is better. Maybe I should add this. May should add that. But what you're saying is like, you've got to really come back to your true self and what's really important to you in your mission and having that really clear first before you go and do that market research. And you're so right. Like anytime I ever tell anyone, because I tell clients, this time it's time for market research interviews. And you know this, I know you're always like, oh, what am I, what am I going to ask? And it's like, yes, the questions do matter. And knowing how to ask the great questions is really key to get the information as well as like that language piece. Like, I just absolutely love that you said that because the language piece is everything. And I think that when you are in your own head about what you do, you're in a heightened level of consciousness because you've most likely solved the problem that you help your clients solve, but they're not anywhere near that yet. And so if you use your language, it doesn't land. So that messaging piece, to make sure that you are connecting where they're at prior to actually solving the problem. Right?

Yeah, 100%. I love the analogy. You can't read the label from the inside of the bottle. So it's kind of like if you're in your business, busy with the day to day, you don't know what people are thinking about it, saying about it, what they're seeing in that brand, what you know, like you have to ask, you have to get an external perspective, whether that's, you know, support from a marketing person, strategist, or a coach or your customers. Like, you need that external perspective because it is really hard to see that when you're in the day to day. And something I'm really passionate about is helping business owners do less with more focus. Because you know, there's just so much you can be doing. Like, marketing is insane. And if you just keep following the tactics and trends, you're gonna burn out. Like, you're gonna get exhausted, you're gonna feel like a failure, you're never gonna do everything well. So if you kind of do less, but do it well and do it based on your values and where you like to show up, like, that's gonna work really well. And that, that kind of does start to bridge into marketing strategy. Like brand strategy is the what and the bigger picture stuff. The marketing strategies the execution and the how you do things, they go together but they're different. They're totally different.

So people just the brand and just go straight. Go straight.

Yeah, people start to dive into marketing, which is cool because you need marketing to make sales. But yeah, if you don't have that deeper knowledge and you're not saying the right words or your messaging isn't landing, you're literally throwing money down the drain. Like you, you don't know what you're trying to say and to whom. You're just hoping that you make a sale like it's not going to be effective. So yeah, the strategy is where you begin for sure. And I think, yeah, even with sorry tangent but like visual design, like a lot of people go into logo and visuals first and like I really, really wish more people would just start with strategy and then do the visuals because it all aligns, it all makes sense. And like there are some great identity and brand designers that do do a good job of strategy but they don't often do the depth that a brand strategist will do in terms of really pulling out like what makes you unique and getting that articulated so that then you can design from there. Like the design should support that and everything that you do should communicate what's in your brand strategy from the visuals to the words to the message to your actions, all of that stuff. So yeah, it kind of just starts there. I'm totally biased obviously.

It's all good. So yeah, can you share with us a story about a CL or a brand that's come to you that was completely out of alignment with their brand strategy and then the impact share with us, like what you then did with them and then the impact that it created for them.

Yeah, I think like there's a few. So one is in the wellness space. They do physiotherapy, women's health and pilates and they do their job well. Like they're all about evidence based information, they're all about empowerment for women, all this stuff. But they weren't really communicating that. Like they didn't know how to show up and say those things and kind of live their values. I suppose they were just kind of stuck in the doing and they're, you know, experts at what they do. That's what they focus on day to day. So yeah, we went and did a brand strategy, revisited the whole website copy and now they're really positioning themselves as a leader in that space and the founders, you know, getting nominated for awards and starting to show up with a clear Message that she feels she can really stand behind and easily communicate what makes their studio different to any others. It's really helping their business attract more of the right clients effortlessly. And yeah, just kind of. Or even the right stuff. Like, you know, really beautiful, grounded people who care about women's health. Not just caring about, like, shredding and losing weight. Like, there's other studios that do that. Like, you know, they've got a real point of difference. So it was just about leaning into that, owning it and starting to articulate that in a better way. So that, yeah, they've done really well with that. Another one is a woman who runs a online course for web developers. And, you know, she was super busy doing all the things and, you know, business was going well. Like, these businesses are going well, actually. Like, I have to point that out, like, a lot of businesses that are scaling or having success, success suddenly realize they need a strategy because they don't know how to keep the team or. Or, you know, help grow and communicate things in the same way that they did when it was just them. Because when it's just you, you're kind of the keeper of all the knowledge. But as soon as you start to grow and scale and gain more success, you actually kind of need to put it on paper. Like, people aren't going to read your mind. So anyway, we got it down on paper and yeah, she found that her messaging and what she was doing was really piecemeal and it started to get fragmented the more she grew, you know, like layering on top of things and you know what it's like. Like you just add another email to the sequence and you don't really look at the whole sequence and you don't, you know, go back to it. You just keep adding to it. So things were getting really fragmented. And then, yeah, we got deep into her customers, we really asked her audience what was working and started rewriting them all and just basically went through everything to give all of the marketing that she did a really fresh and current perspective. Something that reflected where she's at now and where she wants to be, not where she was six months ago or 12 months ago. And I think that we often fall into that trap where, you know, like, time goes fast when you're a solo business owner and, you know, you've got other things going on. Suddenly it's been a year and you probably haven't even read your website or you haven't even read your emails. Like, it's kind of insane and scary to think what other people are Seeing. Yeah, I know, right? I know. It actually makes me think of my sequences that I need to check. But anyway, like, so we went through that re articulated it all and then, yeah, helped her get her offer more current and it's had really amazing sales since then. Yeah, it's helped her feel like she's more legit in her business and energetically she's been able to show up in a way that feels really aligned. And yeah, she's had some really successful sales. And the cool thing about it is after her first course launch, which was successful, she just got to roll out the same stuff again pretty quickly after. So like, you know, that's like bang for your buck. Like if you do it well and you get the copy to go with it, like it's really powerful and very valuable. Yeah, you can use it over and over again if it's really values and brand aligned, you know, but if it's just been piecemeal, that's not gonna stay true to the strategy because there wasn't one, you know.

So, yeah, that makes so much sense. Oh my goodness. So I can totally see this having such an incredible impact on the long term impact of a business as well. So I'd love to know, like, what do you love about what you do? Like what you're creating for business, not just what you're creating, just for them. Like it's creating actually quite a bigger impact. So I'd love to know your mission with that, like how that lands for you and how you feel about the impact that it's having.

Yeah, well, I'm like all for the underdog. I want more purpose led brands to take over in terms of, you know, beating the big guys who aren't really doing much and succeeding. Like, I also kind of love this little local village marketplace. Like I, in my heart I'm like, I kind of wish we had more of that community and connection. Like true, true connection. And we do online, like we kind of can have that in the digital space, which is cool, but that's where your values come into play. And so I think like building really connected communities and brands that are having a bigger impact is what excites me. I want to help them elevate and rise above the rest for sure so that they can start to get eyeballs and get the dollars and use them for good rather than other things that are going to harm the environment or the, you know, people or the planet. So like, that's kind of what I'm doing with it. And yeah, I always build impact into every strategy I do. Like I make sure that people are thinking about their impact and how they can maybe align to another cause or something that means something to them. You know, you don't have to be saving the world. You don't have to be a not for profit or anything like that. You can just be a normal person that is doing good and doing things in an ethical way that helps people and changes lives. Like you know that that is impact. Like that is your impact and your influence on the world. So like do it in a way that feels good, that doesn't harm others. Yeah. And just do it in a sustainable way. Like you don't have to go fast, you don't have to just pursue growth at all costs. Like I just kind of hate that. I'd rather build a slow, sustainable, meaningful business that feels good, you know, and yeah, just own it. So yes.

Yeah, donated, so needed. I love this and I'd love to know, like, what would be a piece of advice you'd give someone who wants to take their brand to the next level and maybe they've possibly had brand strategy in the past or they've thought they had a strategy in the past. What would you say they should focus on to move forward, to expand even further?

Definitely. So I guess if you've got something down, like look at it for one, get it out of the drawer, you know, don't let it just gather dust. Have a look at what's there and think like, is this all true to me? How can I embody these values even more? And look at every touch point in your business, like every single point. So think, you know, operationally, what can we do to embody this value more? Like if your value is simplicity, let's say Mike, why would you have a 10 part system that's connected with like a thousand zapier zaps, you know, like that's not simplicity in my mind. Maybe it is for you. But like look at that, like that's operations. Look at customer service. How can you make things more simple? If someone wants to get a refund or return something or I don't know, just talk to you. Like is it simple? Is it easy to do that? Like go through that lens of every single value and every single department in your business, your marketing, Is it simple? You just over complicated it? Like you know, and then evaluate what you can do better to embody that value even more. I think that's just a really fun, easy way to do it and check in with it every now and then. That's going to help you feel more aligned and then hopefully from that you will be able to start scaling and you know, making those better decisions. So yeah, I'd probably start with that for sure. And yeah, once you know that you're going to start to be able to articulate what you truly care about, which is going to attract more of the right people and you know, it all grows, it's a virtuous cycle from there.

Love it.

Yeah.

And what would you say, like, what's one thing that you wish people knew about copywriting, brand strategy or messaging that you feel like you're seeing at the moment that you kind of like look at it, you're like, oh, I don't, I wish that they thought something different about this. Like what frustrates you in their face at the moment.

Yeah, I mean I've actually been looking around trying to see what's annoying me. I haven't found anything particularly annoying lately. But one common irk is just that brand strategy is a nice to have, not a must have. It kind of blows my mind. I feel like I've even gone into bigger brands sometimes and you know, seen them investing in tactics and being like, where's your brand voice? Like what is, what's your message? What are we doing here? So you know, it should be a must have even in a simple format. It doesn't have to be a 40 page document, it can be simple. So yeah, I think turning that mentality around to make it important and make it the kind of heart of your business and definitely like you said the North Star, that's really, really key. And yeah, I just think be careful with who you trust to do it as well because like strategy is a big common word that gets used on so many things and so does brand. So does message. Like these are everyday, so does values. Like these are everyday words we use. Right. So like it's actually not always easy to navigate the terminology and navigate the jargon that's going around. So I mean I see a million weird explanations of what things are and I'm like, not really. So yeah, I think just be careful with like how you go about it and who you trust for it. Like you can plug it into ChatGPT or something. Right. And it could do a good job. Like it can put some nice sounding words out and you can be like, wow, that sounds great but like you're not really thinking about it, you're not really going back to the research or you know, really looking at your inside. So it might look nice superficially but it might not have that depth and substance that you need. And yeah, substance is always going to trump superficiality. So I think, yeah, making sure you, like, trust someone to go deep and get you and know what you're all about and do this for the right reasons, not just to, like tick a box and then design a pretty logo. Like, if that's. If someone's into design, they're going to want to do design. You know, they're not going to want to do the strategy as much. So I think just, just be mindful of that whenever you're thinking about investing in something like this as well.

For sure. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so I think I do want to quickly, like, I know that this. The question I'm going to ask you is like a whole other podcast episode. So I just want to touch on, just quickly, because I know that you love talking about this and I know that you have a different take on it than other copywriters. So the AI world is coming in.

Yeah.

And people are utilizing it in certain ways and it's sometimes is actually helping for businesses and other times it's like being used and it's really bloody obvious that it's AI. So what's one piece of advice you'd give business owners when it comes to using AI?

Yeah, AI is pretty cool. I love it. I do use it all the time. Like, full disclosure, I probably use it every day when I'm doing content or strategy. But, like, I'm not using it in a way where I'm like, can you write me an about page? You know, I'm using it in a way that's, you know, kind of idea generation or questioning things or getting it to question me on things I've written. Like, it's more like a brainstorm partner or. I don't know. Yeah, I think, like from a brainstorming perspective, it's a great tool. So, yeah, if you're using it for your copy, definitely try and make sure you are centering what you like, get. Think of the outcome is what I'm trying to say. So think of the outcome you want and what you want to say. Like what's important to you in terms of your values and how you want to say that. So you're going to have to feed a lot of good information to get the good results, which everyone will probably know by now. So, yeah, use it with caution. And I think use it more from the ideation phase or the research phase a little bit versus the creation phase, you know, like, I don't think Yeah, I just, like, you can see it a mile away now. It's kind of gross. Like, I can see the words, I can see the layouts, the formats. And humans are so smart. Like, our brains can just catch patterns really easily. So, like, we're all cluing on to this already. So, yeah, just use it with caution when it comes to the writing part. Yeah. Because it's not always gonna.

Yeah.

And all work.

And I love that you've been helping some of your business owners with this to actually set. Actually working for them. Can you talk a little bit about how you do that?

Yeah. So I've been playing a lot with the custom GPTs and setting them up so that they have all the data and the insights on the brand, from the values to the vision, the mission, all that good stuff. But also, like, how I write as a copywriter and the kind of structures and tools and frameworks I might use as a copywriter, which, again, there's a million. We could talk about on that as well in copywriting land. But, like, I'll feed it that kind of information, set it as a base, and then it's got that already set up for you to start prompting the actual outcomes you want. So that just saves so much time in terms of, you know, giving the same instructions over and over again and kind of having to remind it halfway through a conversation what you're talking about and who you are, because it might go a bit off track. So, you know, that's been really fun. And then I also have, like, a group program called Write your site where we work through, like, a brand strategy questionnaire. We don't do a full brand strategy, but you've got the guts of it in this questionnaire. And then you go on to build your website, copy page by page, and we use AI throughout the whole thing, like from the research through to the writing phase and the editing phase. And I think that's really fun to, like, use it at certain strategic points in the journey and know how to use it. It can be really, really empowering, I suppose. And it can kind of get you past any blocks that you might have around creating and writing, because I know that that can be a big problem for people. So, yeah, like, it can be an amazing tool and it's definitely worth playing with. You've just got to kind of think about where you use it in your process and where you don't use it in your process and set some guidelines around that. Like, we're at that point in the game now where AI has been around at least a year and a half in the public space. And, yeah, you need to sort of establish what your stance is on it by now as a brand, I think, and just how you're going to use it rather than just keep relying on it all the time and playing with it. Like, we've got to move beyond that now. I think so, yeah.

Love it. I love it. Love, love it. So is there anything in particular that we haven't discussed just yet that you feel like needs to be said when it comes to brand strategy?

Gosh, there's so many things. I feel like we could do a whole section, like a whole podcast on each section of strategy. No, I feel like we've covered quite a bit of ground. I think, you know, the other. Another big part is brand voice and personality and building that into things. And that's another area that's really important. But again, it all lays layers on top of those core foundations. So, yeah, we could, we could, like, riff on that another time perhaps. But, yeah, otherwise I feel like, yeah, as long as you've got your core strong, then, yeah, you're going to be good. And, yeah, there's, yeah, so many more things. My brain's just like, don't start, don't stop.

Where should we send people? So if. Where should we send people to find out more about how you can help them and ways that they can work with you and how to further work on their brand strategy?

Yeah, totally. So you can find me on Instagram most of the time. That's where I look around. And I do love a voice note there. So my handle is by HaleyBerryman. Hayley has just one Y at the end, not the one in the middle. And you can also check out my freebies. I've got three free guides which are really helpful on my website. Some of them we've touched on here on my website. And you can also book a free call with me on my website as well. If you just want to chat about your own brand strategy or any copywriting needs, then jump on there, which is haileyberryman.com Amazing.

Amazing. Now, before you go, I want to chat to you a little bit about our work together. So previously, we have been. We've been working together for like, what, seven, almost seven months now. So I'd love for you to just to share with the listeners a little bit about what made you join the next level Mastermind.

Yeah, of course. I love. I loved everything you did. Like, in terms of, like, for me, it's been a slow burn. Like, I Knew you from a few years ago. I felt trust in what you did. You showed up consistently. You seem to embody values that I care about, which obviously is something I look at and feel and we all kind of do subconsciously anyway. But for me, yeah, it was just about that genuine care, kindness, like authenticity. Yeah, you seem to be putting in the work and I loved that. You know, like, I feel like there's a lot of coaches and people online spouting out these figures and all these weird things and it's not my vibe. Like I don't really like all that. Like of course money is super important and I want to make a lot of it, duh. But like, you know, there's other things too that can make life and business more fulfilling. So yeah, I was really drawn to the mastermind for you and also for the support that was there. Like the one to one sessions. The education wasn't a part that I really felt like I was going in for. But I loved the idea of the one to ones and also the mindset work because I think the mindset work is so powerful and it's probably an overlooked area in a lot of business. Like I know for me I could. I've spent years actually consuming things like consuming freebies, downloading stuff, watching videos, you know, and it's all good but like it kind of just clutters your mind a little bit. Maybe it can make things more confusing. So I really liked the idea of the mindset stuff too. Just to move past blocks and get really clear on what you wanted. So yeah, those are a few things that drew me towards it.

Beautiful. And what were some of your favorite parts?

Ah, all of it. It was great. I loved getting to meet some amazing women. Like I'm all for the connection. I think freelancing and working on your own can be super lonely at times. So that was really amazing. The in person days are amazing. You know, just having a bit of downtime in business too and having a bit of fun. Like I think we need to bring a bit more fun back to business, make sure we are making space for it because that's when the ideas can spark and the connections can spark and yeah, that's, that's what it's all about. So yeah, I, I would say like the people have been the main part, but definitely also the space to. For me to look inward and be accountable for things that I wanted to move forward on. Like just having that and having that awareness and that kind of anchor point every week is really valuable for me because you know, suddenly weeks can go past and you haven't realized you've done the thing you wanted to do. And if no one's around to watch you, you don't care. Like, you just like brush it aside or carry on or feel bad about yourself or whatever. Like. But having the regular touch points, you know, and having that accountability. Yeah, it keeps it for at the forefront and keeps you accountable to what you say you want to do. So I love that as well.

Makes such a big difference, doesn't it? Like, I think, yeah. Realize it's not until like six months later that you're like, oh my God, what have I achieved in business? Like, yeah, without that, like without that North Star or without that realignment to be like, come back, come back to the purpose, come back to the focus help State keeps you on track for sure. What surprised you about the Mastermind?

What surprised me?

What was part of it that you thought that, oh, I didn't realize that I would also get this out of it.

I mean, definitely the education. Like, I literally had no idea there was a giant hub that you could log into and find all these resources. I was like, wow, okay. That definitely, definitely surprised me. Like, I kind of thought there was a little bit, but yeah, it's huge. It's great. Like, I feel like there's always a little bite sized video on something that you're tackling at that stage, whether it's like, like onboarding a team member or yeah. Looking at your offers or anything. So yeah, I found that quite surprising and a good little bonus for me, like for what I needed. So, yeah, that was surprising.

And what would you say to someone who's considering being part of the next round?

Do it. No, of course it's so good. Like, I think if you're feeling like you need that accountability, you want to feel supported by like a genuine group of women in business who kind of are going through the same things as you and you just want to grow. Like, if you want someone to help you grow and move past any blocks or repetitive patterns or like limits that you're facing in terms of like the level you're at or what you're doing, then yeah, I would say it's an amazing opportunity and place to be because you're going to have a long time frame together and lots of contact points and yeah, it's really involved. You know, I feel like you don't get left behind and you don't get forgotten. Oh, and that just reminded me the other surprising thing is all the amazing support on slack. Like the way you respond to things so quickly and support people at any point with any weird questions. Like I remember bouncing in for a lot of my sales calls and little objections that I was facing during calls and yeah, like working through that with someone was amazing to do in real time because yeah, for me like sales, even though it's like linked to marketing isn't my strongest suit, you know. So having that support was really cool too. I just like love to get out of my head and like see how I could improve that. So yeah.

Yeah. Beautiful.

It's great.

And how do you feel about the future of your business now?

Good. I feel excited. I feel like I'm constantly getting more clarity. I'm at a place where I feel really centered in what I'm doing and even though the pace might be not what everyone else is doing, I don't mind anymore. Like I don't feel like that need to compare and hustle as much as I might have. So yeah, I'm in like a. I feel like I'm getting more in flow with like how I do business and how I want to move forward given my life circumstances. I have two young kids and you know, like my schedule with my husband's really different so you know, there's not as much time to work on it. And that kid frustrate used to frustrate me so much because I always want to do more and like gain momentum but I'm like learning how to choose what's important and spend time on those things more. So yeah, I'm excited for that. I think it's good.

So good. And I feel like that's like one of my biggest focuses in the mastermind is helping you focus on the things that actually create the progress because it can be. It's so easy to get so caught up in all the 50, 50 million things you need to do in business that we're and or if we're just trying to get by right, we're just like focusing the next couple of months. We're not really focused on the future and we're not really creating that next level growth within our business. And so that's my always my intention to be like yes, we can get the structure of the business working well and your every day, every month working well. But like where are we going to like what do you want to create long term and what does that look like? What's your lifestyle going to look like and how do we get you there? Because I think it's the of one of the Biggest things that we just don't make time for that. Those growth focused activities.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. There's a lot of that future thinking and visualization, which I love too, because it does remind you, like, I don't think we take time to do that enough in our day to day. It's just easy to get caught up in the busyness. So, yeah, it's good to like, look ahead and really imagine what that is for you. Like it's not what you see someone else doing on Instagram or your neighbor or whatever. Like it's, it's you, like you have to really think about what's right for you. So, yeah, it's nice to bring that, come back to that. And I think you do that really well in the program.

Beautiful. What impact did you see it have on your business or any specific results or things that you saw from our time together?

I think overall I still felt like there's a lot of groundwork for me in terms of where I was at. I had a lot of realizations, like I had a lot of time realizations. I had a lot of readjustments to things. So like, whilst maybe the impact isn't just being seen yet, I feel like it's well on its way in terms of like attracting the right people, you know, and just continuing on the path that I am pursuing. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, overall it's just very helpful in the day to day sense and you know, getting me through a launch and getting me through these sales calls and you know, just being there. So yeah, those results have been great and I've learned a lot just going through that with someone by my side as well.

Amazing. Amazing. Is there anything else you'd like to share just to finish off?

No, I think it's, yeah, overall just a fantastic program. It's. Yeah. Not something I've come across before with such a high touch environment and such genuine caring support, but a whole bunch of amazing business tools as well, like, you know, tracking the numbers and things. I think, yeah, there's a really nice balance of like functional stuff, but also like the mindset and softer side of business. And yeah, you've got to have both. And yeah, if that's what you're, you're about, then it's perfect. So, yeah.

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today, Haley. I honestly really appreciate you sharing all the, all your incredible wisdom with everyone today.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been great. My pleasure.

I'll make sure I share all the links in the show notes so people can check out all your beautiful freebies and definitely go follow Hayley on Instagram. Otherwise, have an incredible week. Thank you for listening. And if you found any value out of this episode, make sure you hit the follow button so you get access to the episodes as soon as they are live. And make sure you come hang out with me on Instagram. You can find me at Christine Corcoran Underscore Coach. Have an incredible week. Thank you for listening. And if you found any value out of this episode, make sure you hit the follow button so you get access to the episodes as soon as they are live. And make sure you come hang out with me on Instagram. You can find me at. Christine corcorancoach have an incredible week.