618 - Blind Ambition, Major Pivots & Choosing a Millionaire Mindset with Chris Harder

I am so honored to have this incredible guest on my podcast today. Thank you so much for joining me today, Chris.

I'm the one that's honored. First of all, you flew all the way here to come to our event and do this podcast. That means absolute world. So thank you.

I can't even. I know that you love starting your podcast episodes with gratitude, so I wanted just to show an absolute, like, so grateful that you are giving me this time and chatting with me today. So I really appreciate it and I'd love to start by. By you sharing. What's a gratitude that you're having at the moment?

I'm grateful that I've got a body that still works really well for about 99% of it. I got two workouts in this morning. I went to the gym and then I went to like, a cardio, like, spin class.

Yeah.

And to be able to do that, sometimes people take that for granted. But there's like a ton of people that can't do that. So grateful that I've got the ability to do that and the time. Grateful I've got the, like, who else gets to do that when they're in a busy season? Who still gets to fit that type of stuff, you know, priorities in.

I feel exactly the same way. And even just having gratitude for, like, being here, having the opportunity to fly all this way, have a business that supports me to fly all this way. Like, I think sometimes we can get super caught up in just life when really, like, I had a huge busy season before getting here, moved house, ran a retreat, like, all these things. But then I had this moment when I was yesterday in the hotel and I checked into the hotel was like, holy hell. Like, I can't believe I'm here. And so taking those moments, I think is really important. It helps change the way that you think about life.

You mentioned busy and you mentioned busy season. And there's been times when I've been really busy and I had a piss poor attitude about it and I saw it as busy. And lately I'm probably, quote unquote, busier than I've ever been before, like, by a landslide. But I no longer see it as this negative thing. And I'm having fun and I feel like I've got enough time for the things that I want to do. And I feel like I've got my priorities locked down pretty good. And so I know what you're saying when you're like, oh, my gosh, you know, busy season, still found time and all that stuff. But I think One of the most powerful things that people can do is reframe how you see busy. Because that'll change everything. Your stress, your health, your abundance, everything.

Yeah, we get to do it. Yeah, we get to do it. But in saying that, you would have cultivated an element of that, right? Like, it's not something that just comes naturally. Like, there's two elements that I'd love to dive into. So one, did you cultivate that mindset? Like how, like, you've obviously mentioned that before. It wasn't the way that you saw things. How did you cultivate that? And what do you do practically to even recognize that you can fit on all these things and do the things that you really enjoy?

It's very cultivated. I've worked really hard to have these perspectives. One of gratitude, one of seeing it as productive instead of busy, one of happiness by nature. I've got a bad temper. As a matter of fact, when Lori and I were first dating, she left me. Like, left me, left me saying, unless that changes, I don't want to be with someone like you. So, like, we're like bad temper, right? Not towards her, but just towards little things in life. I'll give you example. Let's say I got in the car and I left the keys inside the house. I would like full on, hit the steering wheel, like, fuck type temper and blow the little things out of proportion. So I'm not naturally inclined to be like, oh, everything's rosy. Oh, I'm so grateful. These are muscles that I built because I wanted to live a different way.

It's that choice, right? Coming back to that choice, there was a girl on the plane that actually reminds me of this. She was like in this drama state. Like, everything was a drama. And I was like, I used to be like that too. Like, I used, like everything was a hassle. Every. It was almost like you emanated this. Oh, it's so hard for me, right? But it's not a really great way to live. Like, when you start to just let some of those smaller things go and focus on the gratitude and focus on what you get to do, it just changes the way that you perceive life and you get to enjoy more.

It's a horrible way to live. And I'm not drawing judgment on anyone. Remember I just said it. This used to be me, right? So I've got both perspectives. What a horrible way to go about your day. Feeling like you have to do things, feeling angry all the time, feeling short tempered, feeling like somehow you got screwed because everybody, you know, for context, I'll be 47 in a couple weeks, so that's kind of a sweet spot. You're old enough to see a lot, but you're not quite like ancient, where you don't have things to learn yet. Right. And I can tell you in 47 years, the one thing I know for sure, everybody thinks they're the busiest person on the planet. Everybody thinks they're getting screwed in life one way or another. Everybody has a list of problems just as big as your list. That's just different problems on there, but from their perspective, it's just as dramatic as anything you're experiencing. So when you look at the people who are happy and living the kind of life that you wish you were living, and you look at the people who aren't, the only difference is that they're choosing to do these little practices that shift their perspective so that they see life through a different, more positive, more calm set of lenses instead of seeing life through that busy, chaotic, angry set of lenses. That's it. That's what it comes. No one's life is more blessed. No one's life is just easier by default. People have maybe ended up that way by choosing their response and their view of things 100%.

It's absolutely the choice of perspective. Right. And we say this knowing, like, you didn't have it easy, like, you've been through so much. And so I want to take it back a little bit. Like, you talk a lot about how back in the gfc, you guys, you and Lori lost everything. And I'd love for you to share a little bit of your perspective on how that experience has now shaped how you approach business.

Yeah.

So when it comes to that, like, the mindset element to it, but because you could, you had the story, right? You could be like, you know, this is what happened to me.

I got screwed.

Yeah. Like, all of the things.

Victim, victim. So this was 2008, 2009, when the great Recession happened and everything tanked everywhere, Right. Like, worldwide. And I was in banking, and that was the number one sector that really got hammered, housing and banking. And so when it hit, when it hit, I was my upper 20s, like maybe 28, 29 years old when it hit. I had to spend a year flying around, laying off about a thousand people one by one by one. I'd get up on the first flight out of town in the morning, live in Minneapolis at the time, fly to some random ass city like Rapid City, South Dakota, walk into the branch, say, hey, guys, I'm here to let everyone go Today, you know, I'll meet with you, blah, blah, blah. That was the worst year of my life. Then after doing that for a year, it became my turn. They said, hey, you can have a demotion of a demotion of a demotion of a demotion and wait this thing out running a branch in Jersey, or you can take a severance package. I said, give me that severance package. I'm out of here. Because something had to change because I was so miserable along with everybody else during that time. Now, here's where it gets a little bit dramatic. When that day happened, I came home and told Lori, I'm like, hey, babe, we figured this might happen to me. Took a severance package today. But what I haven't shared with you is that we've been living way beyond our means because I used to manage all the finances back then. We've been living way beyond our means. And we have to get rid of this big house that we just finished building, get rid of the furniture that we just furnished it with, get rid of all the cars except for one that was so upside down, like, you know, owed more on it than it was worth, that it wasn't worth getting rid of. And get rid of all the rental everything and start from way below zero in a little mother in law suite in uptown Minneapolis. Now, when that happened, it was at the time it felt like the lowest of low points. I lost my identity because my identity up to that point was, what's my title? What's my next promotion? How many people do I have on my team? You know, direct reports and subreports. Everything was about, where am I going? And how does this look? And when you're stripped of all that suddenly, oh, and a provider, right, you know, oh, don't worry, babe, you don't have to work. I'm going to provide when all along is providing a lot of income but really poor money management. And so when all of that value that you think is valuable is stripped from you, then you become a blank chalkboard and you get to choose again. You know, how do you really want to show up this time? How do you really want to add value this time? Like, who do you want to be this time? Because when you're stripped of your entire identity, there's a blessing in being able to choose who you want to be this next time around. And so while it felt like garbage while we were going through it, and I won't try and convince anyone that was like, easy or felt good, now when I look back on it, it gave Me some of the best lessons in the world. I'm happy to share a couple of those. And it also made me who I am today because had I just stayed on that track, that wouldn't have been a very nice, a very good, kind individual. It was not a healthy individual. It was not a. Like, I was just stuck on a highway that I didn't know how to get off and I stayed there by default, you know? You know?

Yeah, absolutely. So how has that now shaped the way that you approach things in business?

Lots of things. Money and business. One, we don't live beyond our means anymore. Two, I realized multiple income sources is a must. It's not a nice to have. It's not a. Oh, that would be good if you did it. It's an absolute must in a world that changes this quickly because if you look at economic cycles, they're getting faster and faster in between cycles and. And they're getting a lot more dynamic as well. So in the past, a healthy economic cycle might have been this long. Now it's like this long. So it's boom or bust. Boom or bust. Boom or bust. So life's going to hand you a lot of challenges financially. The way you navigate those is, number one, you don't live beyond your means, but number two, you make sure that you're living as though today that if even your biggest income source went away, you wouldn't have to change your life tomorrow. And that became a rule for Lori and I, that if our biggest income source went away today, we wouldn't have to change our lifestyle in any meaningful way tomorrow. And you do that with having multiple income sources and of course, some assets piled up. And people might hear me say that and say, oh, well, that's easy for you. I'm working my ass off and I can barely make ends meet right now. Remember, this came from a time when we were way below zero and decided, how are we going to want to show up financially going forward? So everybody gets that choice. So sometimes that choice is handed to you. Right? Like you get your ass kicked and you got. You have to choose something because you've been kicked down to the ground. Sometimes you don't have the luxury of life dealing you that choice, but you still have that choice to make, if that makes sense.

Yeah, 100%. Oh, I love this. And so the mindset element and the money mindset. I love talking about money mindset. So let's go there for now. So what are some of the things that you've actually had to evolve with your Money mindset, because that was a huge experience. And then getting to the point where you were then not living beyond your means. Like, tell me a little bit more about that evolution. Like, did you recognize that you had a lot of money mindset blocks? And I like, now you approach it differently.

It's funny in the moment, and I think this is where humans are dangerous to themselves. It's not like that day happened. I said, oh, I've got some fucked up money mindset. Things I've got to address. It's not quite how it works, but you start getting introduced to things if you're open and those things start to leave little imprints on you. So I'll give you example. I went to this thing called Landmark Forum, and it's kind of like a self development weekend. And you spend three days there and they teach you a lot of things. As a matter of fact, when I went there, just to really prove the point that it's not like you choose these things all the time, I walked in there and if you've ever been to this place, people spend the first full day getting up on a mic and talking about their problems. And I was very judgmental back then. And I remember sitting there thinking, oh, I wouldn't want your life. Oh, that's super fucked up. Oh my God, you poor thing. Oh, so glad I'm not like you, like person after person. But by the end of that weekend, I was a radically different person. I saw the world in a radically different way and learned things like, you know, nothing really has any meaning other than the meaning you apply to it. And that can certainly transfer over into your financial situations as well. Like, just because you might be going through a tough financial time doesn't mean that you are financially incapable. Doesn't mean that you're not destined for having a great financial life. It has no meaning other than the meaning that you apply to it. And I learned that we build stories around things. You know, you can build a story of something in a positive way or in a very negative way. Yeah. So I learned all these things and that starts to make you curious about, well, what else do I not know that could be empowering? Right about this same time, because our finances were such a mess, I became determined to never let this happen to me again. And actually, I'll share a little story. Like the moment where I was like, this is never going to happen to me again. The day that we were moving out of this great big house that we had just built, we had a short sell it. What that Means is you sell it for less than you owe on it, and the bank just kind of writes off the difference. It's like one stop short of foreclosure, right? And because we short sold it to an investor, there was never a for sale sign up front. So when there were moving trucks out in front, the neighbor across the street, his name was Greg, he walked into the house and I was down on my hands and knees packing a box. And he was standing up above me, behind me, he says, hey, Chris, what's going on? I see the moving trucks out front, but I didn't see a for sales eye. And I turned, I looked up at him and I said, well, lost my job and couldn't maintain the house and all of our stuff anymore, so we had to short sell it. And we're gonna go start over in this little mother in law suite in uptown Minneapolis. And this was one of those, like, McMansion neighborhoods where everyone's identity is, you know, how big is your house and what does it look like? And I remember Greg looked at me, his response to this, in this moment, looking down on me was, what'd you go and do that for? You're gonna ruin the values in the neighborhood. That was his response. And so picture, like, the physicality of it. I'm on my knees, packed a box, he's standing above me. That, that had a big impact. His response, like, somehow I'm ruining everyone else's value. And you know, jokes on him like, the whole country lost 40% of his value. Anyhow, that moment was so humiliating. Along with everybody pulling up in front of our house to buy our furniture and our TVs and all that stuff for, like, pennies on the dollar because we listed on Craigslist. Right? Those moments were so humiliating that it made me say, never again. I'm going to learn how actual wealthy people behave and think and, you know, what they do with their money. So to do that, somebody recommended a book. It's called Secrets of the Millionaire Mind. Now it's by T. Harbecker. Great guy, but if you read the book, it's cheesy as hell. Like, I'm just going to put it out there it is, the cheat. You do things like, you read a couple chapters and it makes you say out loud, like, I. Yeah, right. And while that stuff seems cheesy on the surface, that book went a long way in helping Lori and I identify that. Yeah, we've got some. We view money in the wrong way, and we need to shift how we view our Behavior and our capability of making money. Matter of fact, it even changed what I thought was a lot of money at the time. For context, this is. Was that 15 years ago now, my God, where does time go? 15 years ago in the Midwest, I was making like 300 grand a year. So that's a lot of money in the Midwest. Fifteen years ago. And by reading this book, it immediately made me say, well, why not a million? Why not 2 million? Why not 5 million? Why not 10 million? Like, if other people are doing this and they've left evidence that it can be done and a lot of other people are doing this, then what do they know that I don't know? Do I just have to figure that stuff out? Do I just have to change my target? Do I just have to change my sights? And Lori and I, it was the most unsexy thing in the world. We would read this book out loud. We take turns reading it to each other in bed. We went to bed. And that being said, getting us on the same page with our money mindset, getting us on the same page of, oh, we've got some stuff that we need to talk about and address financially. Getting us on the same page of, what if we dreamt bigger instead of just dreaming on getting back to where we were, what if we dreamt bigger? That was one of the best gifts that could ever be given to a couple. And I highly recommend, if anybody is getting into a relationship or if they're already into a relationship, even if your finances are a mess and you're afraid to tell the other person, sit down and become aligned on here's where things are. Here's where I wish they were, my dreams and the lifestyle I wish that we had. How do you feel? What do you envision financially and come to an aligned vision on what that could look like? Because when two people are dialed in on the same vision, they become pretty unstoppable, 100%.

And I think that that's one of the biggest things that I've taken away with working with you over the years, is that thinking bigger aspect. And even just this morning on the Uber ride here to the studio, I was like, I see why you live here. Like, I see why you live here. Yeah, it's amazing. But the wealth is next level. And just like driving, passing all the yachts, the incredible houses. So would you say the. That is intentional, too, in the way that you are?

Very intentional. We won't accept living anywhere that doesn't inspire us. And people hear that, and that can be a trigger but even back when we had to move into that little mother in law suite, I'm glad you asked this. We didn't move into a little shitbox to be frugal or smart. We rented this little mother in law suite in one of the wealthiest buildings in uptown Minneapolis, where everybody else was a kajillionaire. And this was literally a little studio apartment for their mother in law, who I think she passed, God rest her soul, and hopefully not in there, and had to rent it out. So we knew that by going and surrounding ourselves by other people that were living a life that we wanted to live, that would rub off on us and we'd be able to make connections that were valuable and we'd be able to, you know, share ideas that see how they live, see how they think. And. And it worked. I mean, we spent almost four years in that little apartment making friends with everybody in there. Some of them are still lifelong friends. And it changed our life from a physical surroundings. What kind of people are you taking advice from? It had a really big impact. And ever since then, we've always said we will always put ourselves in the most abundant, the most inspiring and the most positive surroundings that we can possibly find for ourselves. Hence why we live here.

Yeah. Because that representation of being visible and the things that you see, the conversations that you're having has such a big impact on your subconscious mind. And I think a lot of people don't recognize that being such a big impact because you become part of your surroundings. Right. And I think like, if you had done the opposite and actually gone to an apartment that maybe wasn't, you know, as fortunate to be.

Which is the advice people give you, by the way.

Yeah.

And they mean well when they give that to you.

Right, right. And so like, that would have been detrimental and taken you down a completely different path. So I love that you had that intention. You're like, you know, I'm not going to go this way, we're going to go this way because this is where we really want to go.

If I would have taken the. Well, go find the cheapest one that you can so that you can save and dig out even faster. The problem is now you're sharing ideas with other people who have not yet gone where you want to go. And so you're just recycling like either broke ideas or you're recycling poor money mindset ideas with other people who are also stuck. That's why you have to go fight to get in the rooms, fight to get into the surroundings, fight to get into the I don't care. The hotels, the restaurants, the neighborhoods, whatever it is, where you can start exchanging ideas with people that have already been a few steps ahead of you.

Yeah, I was saying to a friend yesterday that I think that, like, you've ruined my four star experience by staying at Montage there. Yep, the Montage and then the Beverly Hills Hotel. Just these experiences. It's like, now I have such a standard that I'm like, when I book hotels in Australia or even just when I was in Hawaii, I was like, oh, this is not great.

Well, listen, this is why experience, this is why we host that event in those spaces. Same thing with our elite level mastermind. That's by design and we pay down. Most people don't know this. Like, your room rate was absurdly low. Your room rate was 25% of what a normal room is there. We buy down and negotiate the room rates so that the attendees can afford to stay there, so that they can say, oh, wait a minute, this is what it's like. Because once you taste it, you can't untaste it. Once you see it, you can't unsee it and it changes you. It's like the first time you ever sit in first class or the first time you ever fly in a private jet, you say, wait a minute, I'm never standing in a fucking TSA line again. Like, how do I do this every single time? And when it, when you, when it leaves an imprint on you, you demand something better for your life because now you've experienced it, you demand, like, wait a minute, why haven't I been living like this all along? And it's when you reset your target and work backwards from there. Now you start asking yourself bigger and better questions. Instead of, how do I make 100 grand, it's how do I make 500? Or instead of how do I save a million, it's how do I save 10 million, etc. Yeah.

Love it, love it, love it so much.

I'm glad you like the hotel.

Yes. Oh, my God, it's gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous. And all the little, like, the little details, that's where I think it just takes it to that next level, that next level of luxury, which is exactly what you just described. Like now it's hard to.

We had our 10th anniversary there. I surprised Lori. She had no idea. And surprising Lori is like an impossible thing.

Oh, really?

Yep.

Love it. So good. So I'd love to know, like, you're obviously an investor in other businesses as well. And with that experience with the gfc, when it comes to like taking risks in business, I'd love to know what your process is. Like, just did that experience affect the way that you take risks? Is there a way that, like what's your formula, your process for taking risks?

Yeah, absolutely. So let me kind of, and I'll start by saying I'm not financial advisor. This is just stuff that we figured out on our own. So this is not like legal financial advice. But happy to share what we do now. First and foremost, we do the boring investments. Every single week we have a set amount that is transferred out of our personal accounts into our Vanguard accounts, and that just goes into low fee index funds that when you look at the history of them, they return 10.8%. Since they've been tracking it over history and if you know anything about the rule of 72s, it simply says this, divide your return on investment into 72. Right? So let's say you're getting 10%, divide 10% into 72, and that tells you how long it takes for your money to double. So in that case, every 7.2 years, your money would double. Not even if you didn't add another penny to it. Right. And people don't understand the power of compounding interest. Neither did I, by the way, until I had to go figure this stuff out. So while it's not sexy and while it's very boring, that auto transfer is probably the most powerful part of our financial plan because that becomes, over time, a very predictable amount of money. And that is our worst case scenario. You know, we turn 50, we turn 60. Whenever we decide that we don't want to have to work anymore, we're able to calculate and estimate, okay, here's our worst case scenario then above and beyond that, we get to start having a little bit more fun. And this is where people's advice will differ in terms of what's the next riskier but still responsible type of investment. I love cash flowing investments. Matter of fact, what Laurie and I asked, you know, what changes did we make in our money mindset and how we did our finances after this happened? We made a rule that we will always have 12 months Runway accessible at our fingertips. So what that means is whatever your living expenses are times 12 months, and whatever your business expenses are, maintain your business 12 months. We keep those accessible in an account so we can get them, you know, at any drop of the hat. Everything above that, though, we invest. Those are soldiers that should be out fighting for your wealth. And so people that leave too much money in a checking account or savings account, you're wasting the effort that those soldiers could be out fighting for you. So everything beyond 12 months, we go invest. And one of my favorite investments are cash flowing investments where you also get a tax write off. So things like REITs, things like ATM funds, things like a clean carbon fund that I'm in, all these different funds where because you are technically part of a group buying equipment, you get the tax write off for the money that you put in there. And at the same time it kicks off a residual income for 5, 7, 9, 10 years, depending on the fund. I love those because every time that we put more money in those, we know that we're setting up even more income, even if we didn't work another day for another five, seven, ten years. And when that income comes out, we don't take it and spend it, we then reinvest that income that's being kicked off into a different investment. So it really starts to snowball, it really starts to compound in your favor. So that's that second level of investments. The third level is where I get to really start having fun. And that is like individual stocks. It's really hard to choose individual stocks and get it right. So individual stocks of companies that I love or that I want to be invested in and I have fun with like cryptocurrency and all that stuff. And when that's not the base of your financial triangle, you can invest in those things, go for the home runs and still know that you're being financially responsible. And then that fourth layer, if this was a triangle, that's startups. Investing in startups is probably one of the riskiest places that you can put your money, but when they hit, they hit. And we have a very systemic way of doing it. Happy to share that, but I'm going to bore all of your listeners with all this pretty soon. But we have a very systemic way of how we choose which startups we invest in. If it doesn't fit the matrix, it doesn't get the money. Even if we're emotionally excited about it. We do five a year, every single year. And that's because four out of five, no matter how well we pick them, are going to eventually fail. But the multiples on the one is going to far pay for the other four losses and then some. And some of the multiples can be huge. And what people don't realize is there's another return on investment when you invest in startups where it throws you into experiencing that business. You get to see behind the curtain, you learn More about other businesses that you may not otherwise learn about. And it puts you kind of into this club where now you're meeting other investors and now you're meeting other entrepreneurs that you wouldn't otherwise meet. So some of my most powerful relationships have come because I invested in a couple of companies where they were investors too and got to know them at the investor meetings, et cetera, and they become friends and acquaintances, relationships I wouldn't have without investing in those risky startups. So there's always a secondary reason besides how much money could I make back as to where I place the money.

Who will I be connected with in the process? Yeah, yeah, love that. And I would imagine as well, like there's an element there of like it improving the way that you mentor.

Yes, right.

Like it would impact that because you're tons.

Because now I've got like before Lori had a CPG company, right? Consumer packaged goods, we knew nothing about that except for the fact that we had invested in a few of them. So we got to learn from the wins and the losses and the mistakes and the good decisions that those entrepreneurs made. And, you know, a lot of them I'll sit on the board of and I'll get to help guide them. And so then I really get to see what's working, what's not working. And I'm able to take that knowledge back to the base of people that I either coach or work with or that's in our masterminds and say, oh, don't worry, I own three CPG companies. Oh, don't worry, I own four pieces of four different tech companies. Oh, don't worry, I own. Right. And now you've got, you can pull from those connections, you can pull from those experiences and it becomes that much more valuable to your clients.

So good. So how has this then shaped Frello? So I want to start talking about a little bit. So can you tell us just a little bit about Frello to begin with?

So yeah, originally Frello was a peer to peer. So individual to individual lending app for small urgent needs. And it came from a real life act of generosity. This is one of the reasons I'm such a fan of generosity. It's not just the dopamine hit of helping other people. It's very much some of the other things that it can lead to. So in the pandemic late 2020, I sitting on the couch, I scrolling Instagram and I get a lot of DMs. When you have a brand that's based around generosity and you start to Get a pretty big following. You get a lot of DMs of people saying, here's my hardship. Could I have some money? Because I think you're a generous guy. So I made a kind of a policy that I'm not going to give in DMs. I don't know what's real, I don't know what's fake. Despite having that policy, I'm scrolling Instagram late 2020 and it's a landscaper. And I just got a feeling, like, do with this what you will. A true feeling, like through my head into my heart to say, hey, open this message and answer it. So I followed the feeling. And he said, hey, Kris, I listen to your show, appreciate everything you put out there. I'm really embarrassed to be sending this, but I'm two payments behind in my landscape truck, and if I don't find $680, like yesterday, they're going to repossess my truck. If they repossess my truck, not only will I lose my business, but I've got two great guys that work for me and they're going to lose their jobs. Is there any way you'd find it in your heart to lend me $680? And following this feeling, I just said, hey, stranger, not going to lend you 680 bucks. I'll give you 680 bucks. All I ask is that you work your ass off to put yourself in position to do this for somebody else one day. And thought I'd never hear from. Was it real? Was it a scam? Don't know. Didn't care. Just following the feeling. About two months later, he reaches back out and he says, hey, I just want to let you know what you did for me that day. I took the money, I got current on my truck, and those guys kept their jobs. That's great. But when you said you wanted nothing in return than for me to put myself in position to do this for somebody else one day, that little fire in me like I've never ever felt before, to the point where I've gotten so many new landscape accounts, you know, like mowing, that I'm hiring two more guys and buying a second truck. Like, two months later, this guy went from, like, about to go out of business to doubling his business and adding jobs to the economy for 680 bucks. It's not a lot of money. And so that I became obsessed with. I'm like, wait a minute, if that could make that big of a difference. Just in that moment where somebody needed a bridge and they had no one to reach out to other than a stranger whose show they listened to. How do we solve that at scale? And that's why originally it was going to be a lending peer to peer lending for small personal loans. We went out, everyone loved the idea. I got $3 million of investor money, plus a million dollars that Matt, my business partner and I put into it ourselves. And we built the most badass fintech platform that facilitates peer to peer lending, AI underwriting, you name it. Like, this thing was the sexiest set of nuts and bolts you've ever seen. And early this summer, the only other company doing what we wanted to do in that small personal loan space, they got attacked and sued by the cfpb, which is the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau. And they say they're there for the consumers to help watch out for predatory companies. They're really funded and set up by the politicians, they're funded by the banks. You can literally go and look and just trace the money. So they're just protecting banks, credit card income and all that. And they sued this company. Here's what makes it worse. It was started by two black entrepreneurs for the black community saying, hey, we're underbanked and we're trading the same couple hundred bucks around all the time anyways, why don't we formalize it? And they did. And it worked so well that they had done a million and a half loans for almost a billion dollars in four years.

Wow.

Like, let that sink in. Just peer to peer and CFPB. They have an email from the CFPB in 2018 saying, hey, that's okay, you can do that business model full speed ahead. But then they come back and they sue them years later. So anyhow, that happens this summer and we say, holy shit, we don't want to get pulled into that. You know, we don't have the coffers to fight them like, like this company might. And you know, they're gonna be dragged out in court for two years before we get any kind of decision. So I just like overnight I went from having a company that we were about four weeks from flipping the on button with to no company whatsoever and needing to find, what do I do with this platform that I just built? What do I do with the two years and all this money and all this tech? How do I salvage it somehow? And that was the worst, most stressful four to five months of my life trying to figure that out. Because every single idea would, you know, lawyers would say nope, and mentors would say, it's not going to work for this reason. And regulators would say, nope, we won't approve that. And I spent every waking minute for, you know, end of June, July, August, September, most of October, throwing ideas against the wall just for everyone to say, nope, you can't do that, or no, that's not going to work. But finally, stroke of luck, I guess we came up with. Yeah, that's a different thing, right? Yeah, we came up with a direction that is even better than our first direction and even truer to the origin story of what started this thing to begin with. And we are switching from a peer to peer lending platform to a peer to peer giving platform, like GoFundMe, only faster. Because the average GoFundMe campaign takes 12 days to fulfill for smaller, more urgent needs. You know, 500 bucks, a thousand bucks, 1500 bucks, that kind of thing. Funded by peers. And we're going to gamify using a rewards point system for everybody who gives so that the more they give, the more points they earn and they can redeem them for dining, travel, all the, like, AMEX points are so cool if you're familiar with built rewards where you pay your rent on time and you earn points. That same type of setup. And it's going to be the first platform out there that actually rewards givers for giving and incentivizes them to do more.

Wow. Wow. Isn't that crazy? Like, I can't even imagine the constitution or the. The strength that you would have had to go through to get to that point, because a lot of people probably would have given up earlier on because, like, all the ideas is not coming to the point. Having to be on the phone with lawyers all the time trying to figure out, like, what are we legally allowed to do? Like, all of that playing into it and then getting to the point where the idea then comes back to what really, truly was all about.

Yeah, well, I mean, listen, this is why you always bet on the entrepreneur, not the idea. Because good ideas come and go. But good entrepreneurs in a bad situation, when that idea spoils, they won't give up. They will always fight to find a way. They will always be able to stay in business long enough until they find that winning idea. They will always keep stepping up to the plate. You know, Lori did this when she had to pivot from her alcohol company to Gloce. And now that's crushing it. We're doing this when we had to make this pivot with Frello. And every single great entrepreneur out there that you look up to, they've had Moments where they had to just have blind faith and keep stepping up to the plate. Stepping up to the plate. Stepping up to the plate. And that persistence and the ability to keep stepping up to the plate even in the darkest of worst times, because I had a stroke during, would have been easy to say, oh, it's not worth it, I got to take care of my health, you know what I mean? Even in the darkest of times, it's those individuals that'll always find a way to pull through. And so going back to when I said we invest in five startups every year, there's four criteria that we use and the very first piece of that criteria is has the entrepreneur been there, done it before? Do they have a track record of success in winning? No matter how good the idea is, it's entrepreneur first. And that's a good example as to why.

My goodness. And so like obviously with this, so correct me if I'm wrong. So a lot of the businesses that you've been a part of up until Fralo, have been very much like idea to selling in the market very fast.

Yeah.

Whereas now with fellow being something you've had to build over the years, how has that changed the way that you approach business?

Oh, got it. When you build like a real company, and I'm not calling anyone else's business not real, I'm just saying like when you, when you're trying to build a billion dollar company or $500 million company, big brand. Yeah, yeah. It takes twice as long and it's twice as hard and it's twice as expensive as you ever think it'll be because of the complexities that give it the potential to be such a large company. It also causes that many more problems and headwinds and challenges or everybody would be doing it. Everybody would have a 100 million dollar company, you know, and so you really, when you decide to swing for the fences, you really are inviting those new challenges and those new headwinds into your life. And you just have to have the patience to know it's going to take a long time. The persistence to keep going, even on the worst days or weeks or months or quarters, and the perseverance to, if you're running out of money, go find more. If you're running up against regulatory problems, find a way around them, over them, under them, through them. It's that type of personality that you have to have if you're really going to build something like that.

It's a big mindset shift like to approach it in that intention of like it's going to take so much time, but I'm willing to come up against all the barriers and keep moving beyond them every single step of the way. But super interesting that you and Laurie have had similar experiences in building it. Like, how funny is that she came up against light pink and then had to fully pivot. And then you've also had this experience, but similar as well in the way that Glocee feels so much more aligned.

It turns out it's actually par for the course. My buddy Bill Glaser, who is the founder of Outstanding Foods, one of the companies that we invested in, he's been a lifelong successful entrepreneur, and he just sent me yesterday, it's funny that you say that this list of 14 companies that were something radically different that when they started compared to what they are today, and when you start to dig and experience it, you realize, wait, every great company that you look up to started as something totally different than what you see it as today. So it's almost like a rite of passage.

Yeah. Wow. And we don't hear it unless someone like yourself shares it, Right?

Yeah. You don't hear until people tell the stories.

Yeah, exactly. It's usually, like, way further along in the journey and then you hear the full backstory.

I'll tell you, it's probably a good thing, because if somebody said, let me sit you down and tell you exactly what's going to happen over the next few years and tell you exactly what it's going to feel like and tell you about the tough conversations you're going to have to have and tell you about the sleepless nights, nobody would start anything if they said, let me tell you that halfway through, you're going to have. You think you have a great company. You have nothing overnight. Only a psychopath would sign up for that. So it's a good thing, probably, that. No, that everyone thinks, oh, not my company. This is the idea. This will be easy. It'll breathe breeze. I think we need that blind ambition in order to get the wheels moving, in order to get to the point where you're like, oh, shit, not as easy, I thought, but still worth it.

100% agree with you. 100% agree with you. So I'd love to know, like, how has building Frello over these years made you a better business owner in your other businesses?

Oh, great. Question one. It's made me second guess. Why am I doing other things in other businesses that I don't want to be doing? Because it's put such a constraint on my time Frollo has to come first. It's made me second guess, why do I have this program, why do I have this business, why do I do this over here? And you know, while you could look at this and say, look at my calendar, say it's the busiest time of my life, it's that second guessing that has given me so much time and given me so much energy back to be able to put into this. Because a lot of times you're, you're doing something just because it makes money, or you're doing something just because you always have, or you're doing something because, well, I don't have any other idea, so I might as well just keep doing that thing. And there's nothing wrong with that. But when you do have to turn your attention to something like this, and when your time and resources become finite, it forces you to take a hard look at why am I doing this, why am I doing that? And it's made us close down a lot of offerings and a lot of things that we do. Some of them we're sad to. And others were like, yeah, I didn't really enjoy doing that anyways, but I was just doing it because what else?

It's so interesting having that perspective shift. And I know that you've been through quite a lot with building Frello. How is this now with obviously experience of recently having a stroke. How was this now changed you forever? Like thinking about building Fellow? And right from the beginning of where it was to now where it is now, I'll be a.

Well, I'll be a more well rounded entrepreneur. That's how it's changed me. I've got a very addictive personality. And so.

Which I didn't know about you until I heard that podcast.

I think all like crazy entrepreneurs have that. You know, it's like kind of what makes them great and kind of what makes them a mess. Right? And so what happened was early this summer when all of a sudden, overnight, I didn't have a company, I had to find new direction. That stress started keeping me up at night. And sleeping is my superpower. Like I could lay down in the middle of the highway between LA and here and fall asleep on command. Like it is a superpower. So that was very unfamiliar to me. And I would wake up, I'd toss and turn, I'd wake up like two or three in the morning, every single morning, tossed and turned. Couldn't go back to sleep, but wouldn't get out of bed either. And by the time I got up at 5:30 or 6. I was so exhausted, and I had such a full schedule that I had to find a way to be up for that schedule. So it started with, you know, one cup of coffee became two, and one energy shot became two. And then it became, you know, three cups of coffee and three or four energy shots. Then it became, you know, by the time I had the stroke, I was doing six to eight of these energy shots. I was taking pre work, twice the pre workout that I should before workouts. I was taking twice the testosterone that I should because I'm on testosterone therapy. And it makes you feel unstoppable, right? So I'm like, yeah, might as well load the needle up twice as much.

Feels good.

If one is good, two is better. Like, literally, my personality and this is not a good thing, is if one is good, two is better. Like, oh, take two aspirin. Four must make me better, you know? And I was once addicted to aspirin. Isn't that funny?

Yeah, it's crazy.

And so, like, who gets addicted to aspirin? So the point is, I started abusing every single stimulant that I could get my hands on in order to be up for making up for this lack of sleep that's getting. And then I became addicted to being amped. In other words, I probably had enough energy throughout the day, but unless I was feeling, like, amped, I would consider it tired. Like, there was no in between. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah. I had lost the definition of what enough energy should be. So all of that came to fruition when one night I went to sleep and I never felt the struggle. It was in my sleep, and it was a stroke to my optic nerve. I woke up the next day and, you know, you go to wipe the sleep out of your eyes, like, oh, it's weird. Sleep is not wiping out of this eye. And when I finally, like, looked looked, it was like, really, Like, I was looking through mud and dark brown, fuzzy, whatever. And you'd think maybe a smart person would call a doctor. I was like, oh, that's weird. I'm sure it'll go away after I have a cup of coffee.

So I literally would have done the same thing, right?

Exactly. I'm not like the go to doctor kind of guy. And I have a concierge doctor that's on call, and I still don't. I'm just not that guy. So I, you know, halfway through the day, I'm like, oh, this is not going away. That's weird. If it's not better tomorrow, I'LL call my doctor. So I go to bed and you know, that brown lack of vision was there all day. I go to bed, wake up next day, and it was measurably better. Now, instead of it being like dirty brown fuzz I was looking through now, it was like white opaque, like if you fogged out a bathroom window for privacy. It was like looking through that out of my right eye. So I was like, oh, see? Improvement. I'm sure it'll be better tomorrow. If it's not better tomorrow, I'll call my doctor. So I go through all my day and wake up the next day. This would be a Wednesday now. And sure enough, it's not any better. If anything, maybe it went backwards a tiny bit and it's like, okay, I should probably call. So I called him. I'm like, hey, doc, I got this weird thing. He's a friend too. It's a weird thing going on. Fuzziness, my right eye, can't see out of it. It's like, that could actually be really serious. That could be a stroke. That could be this. I'm like, what? No, not me. I'm like, I'm in great shape. 46. Like, guys like me don't have strokes. And he's like, no, this really could be. And so went to the doctor right away, went to the neurologist right away. Like, rushed into everywhere. And sure enough, I had a stroke in my optic nerve that's left me 50% blind in my right eye, in my sleep that day. And this is probably like 10 weeks ago now. 10, 10, 11 weeks ago. And that was a hell of a wake up call. Because as my optic neurologist said to me, she's like, this very well could have continued onto your brain. And if you've seen stroke victims, like, she's like, it's just a stroke of luck, no pun intended, that it stopped in your optic nerve, because it very well could have gone to your brain. And this could have been a very different outcome other than you're half blind in your right eye. And she also said something to me that was really powerful. She has very bad bedside manner. Sorry if she ever listens to this, but she's just direct, right? Which is good for me. And she's like, listen. She's like, it's not necessarily a bad thing that you're half blind in your right eye, because a guy with you and a personality like yourself, you need that reminder every minute that you're about to abuse something, that there's a price to doing so and she's not wrong. And she's not wrong. So if all it takes is me, you know, being 50% blind in my right eye now, and unfortunately I can't like, read books and stuff anymore comfortably if that's all that I lost. And I get to use that as a platform to tell other people, like, hey, wait a minute, be a little bit more well rounded, take a breath. Let's do some other healthy practices besides abusing stimulants. I am more than happy to sign up for that.

Wow. Firstly, super grateful that you're still here with us and that you can absolutely be here doing this. Just what a scary time. And also, if you were to go back a few months, like, I just love to know, like, if you were to go back a few months before all of this happened, for all the stress started to happen with Frelo, what advice would you have given yourself?

You know, the problem is this. I don't know that any advice would have stopped me because everyone thinks they're unique. Well, I'm different. Well, I mean, there's never a day I woke up and said on my eighth energy shot, like, oh, maybe I shouldn't take these. You know, I mean, I was just like, you don't stop to think about those things. So I would love to say, boy, I wish that someone gave me advice or, you know, now looking back, I would. The truth is, I probably needed this rite of passage because what will it prevent me from in the future having this type of driven personality? And so, you know, I don't know if that really answers your question. The lessons now are plentiful and they are impactful.

Yeah.

I mean, every waking minute of every day I'm reminded because as I look at you right now, it's fuzzy out of this eye. Every waking moment, every day, you know, I've got a good reminder there of let's do some healthier things and be a more well rounded entrepreneur.

Yeah.

Without sacrificing your level of ambition and size, because that hasn't changed a bit for me. I'm just gonna take a different route. Getting there.

Yeah, it's. It's almost like you needed the truck. Right? You needed the truck. No advice was going to matter. You weren't going to listen to it anyway. Sometimes we need that truck tool.

It's interesting that you say that because now, like, look at my finances. I run them today the way I do because I got my ass kicked in 08 09. I probably wouldn't have changed without getting my ass kicked. You know now my health and my choice will be different because I got my ass kicked 10 weeks ago. Some people are just built where they need the truck to hit them, I guess.

And the level of stress as well that you went through with Frello, I wonder whether that also that experience happened for you in order to prepare you for where you're about to go.

Absolutely.

Like to take this company to the next level, you're going to have to deal with a whole bunch of stress.

This is not going to be the last time I fight regulatory boards. It's not going to be like that's just going to be par for the course when you have a giant fintech company. So this is just training. This is like armor that you slowly earn and put on the stroke. Frellow, regulatory everything. These are just experiences that turn into armor that you put on and before you know it, you're fully armed to be able to go where you were meant to go all along.

So good. And you've mentioned before, like earlier on you were saying how like you have these mentors that you're also reaching out to and I know how important you find your circle and surrounding yourself with really high value people. It's obviously why I'm part of the dinner series. Right. So over the years, I mean, you spoke about when you first moved to California that you really went about really intentionally creating dinners and creating opportunities to connect with other high value entrepreneurs. How does that play out for you now? Like, obviously it's through the investing piece, but how high of a value do you place on that now?

The highest. There's nobody that I probably can't get a hold of that I would want to get hold of. And that's because I'm one person away from any one of these introductions. Now this is funny. Lori and I were at the gym two mornings ago and we're walking out and parked next to us was Marcus Lemonis. Do you know who that is? So he's this super famous entrepreneur from tv and we're invested in a company together called Mindright. And I didn't want to be the guy that like tapped on his window like, hey, I'm a giant fan. But it was weird that somebody who's this super famous entrepreneur was parked right there and that we both own a part of a company together. That proximity means you can get advice from anyone you need. You can meet anybody that you need. You can, you know, if you need a hookup to get into a certain warehouse or if you need a hookup to a certain Tech team or if you need a hookup to whatever you can get those hookups and everything becomes easier. With a great network, you should build your network so that everything you need is in your network or one introduction way. And when you do, everything gets easier and everything goes faster.

And so now with the network that you've developed, is there people that you reach out to now and start that initial conversation with, or are you now more like, can you connect me with this person through someone you already know all the time.

What I think you're asking is like, do I actually use this network when I'm in trouble? Hell yes, all the time. I mean, as soon as things went upside down with furlough, I reached out to all of the entrepreneurs I had experience with, companies this size, ventures this size, who have raised money before. What do I tell my investors? When do I tell them, you know, do you have a better law firm? Do you have this? All of that came from my network.

So good.

And without the network, you're left to Google and guess on your own. And there's a lot of, a lot of heartbreak, a lot of tough lessons and just googling and guessing on your own. And I get it. Before you build a network, that's your only choice. So good on you. But go out and build a network where you're no longer googling and guessing.

So good. So, last couple of questions for you. And I want to play a little bit of a game because I know how like super connected you are and even if I don't know these people, it's totally fine. I just want to hear if there's anyone in particular for these scenarios. So I've got four scenarios and I'd love to know who would you reach out to and why?

This is fun.

Yeah, I wanted to create something a little bit fun for you. So I'd love to know, who do you reach out to when the shit is hitting the fan?

Define shit hitting the fan.

So when everything's going like terribly and you need that kick up the BART to remind you who you are.

My buddy, Bill Glaser, he's been a great entrepreneur throughout his entire life. He's been at the helm of a lot of companies and a lot of funds. I turn to him first usually because I know I won't be judged and I know he's been there before.

Yeah, nice. Who would you reach out to for a loan?

Ooh, that's good. My business partner, Matt. He was blessed enough to sell a multiple nine figure company and have no dilution. Mean, didn't have investors, like, bootstrapped himself. And so, you know, he's sitting on a life changing amount of impact there. And I know he's a kind enough person. I would fight not to do that. But if I ever had to, I know he's a kind enough person, I could confidently go to.

Love that. So good. Need those people in your network. Who would you reach out to if you really needed someone to give you a butt kicking? Like, real motivational, like, butt kicking probably.

Do you know Brett and Shalene Johnson by chance? Brett is just a. Stop being a P word. Get your shit together. You're making this worse than it is. Very direct kind of person. And I love him for it. I love him for it. So, yeah, I'd probably be like, all right, tell me how I'm being an idiot right now.

Because sometimes you need to be like, what do I need right now? Like, who am I gonna reach out to? What do I need? And sometimes you need that little bit of butt kicking you.

He'll tell you even if you don't ask.

Yeah. So good. Okay, last one. Who would you. Who would you reach out to if you had to bury a dead body or get out of jail?

Oh, my God, this is awesome. I did bury a dead. I'm just kidding. Damn, this is good. I'd call my brother. I know that he would. He'd be there for me for sure. And a few other friends that I've got, you know, it's good to have those bury a dead body friends, I guess.

I wondered if Nick would come into the pool.

Yeah, I'd call Nick. Plus Nick would be very strategic about it. I'd be emotional about it, and he'd be like, well, no, we gotta take your fingers out and we gotta make sure that we cover all these bases. So I'm not. I'm not much with details. They'd find that body if I did. I'm out. They find it, like by Tuesday.

So good. Amazing. So, last question. What's one piece of advice you would give someone who wants to take their business to the next level?

We talked about network. First and foremost, it's not your fault if things aren't going well. It's par for the course that things aren't going well. But it doesn't have to be as bad or as slow or as difficult as it is. If you go build your network and start building, borrowing from other people's experiences, that's number one. Number two is don't be afraid to go find investors. So Many people only have this sized vision because they don't know where they could get the money to have this size of a vision. Right. And so they let that stop them. But there's so much money on the sidelines out there that would love to get rich on the back of your vision and your hard work. And it's just waiting for somebody like you to come along and say, here's my great idea. Here's my financials. I've thought it out to this point. Would you love to be a part of this? And it might take you 100 asks to get what you want, but if you're willing to do that, there's absolutely no scenario where you can't find the money to build a bigger dream.

I love that dream. Bigger dream, bigger. We do. We play so small.

We do.

And it's one of the things that I love to teach my clients as well, like think bigger, because you just never know what's out there. So I love those.

We're victims of our own paradigm. Right. So we only know as big as we've ever seen in person, and it's on us to go find bigger examples if we want to think and accomplish in a bigger way.

That's it. Come to Newport beach and check out all the wealth. There's plenty of wealth.

Yes.

Thank you so much for being a part of the podcast today, Chris. It's been an absolute honor.

No, the honor is mine. I appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

Of course.