622 Willing to be seen as a Future Thought Leader with REBECCA CAFIERO Visibility Coach

Rebecca, I'm so excited to have this conversation with you today. Thank you so much for joining me here in Newport, and welcome to the Next Level Life podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for flying from Australia. I only had to fly 45 minutes.

Well, you know, we do these things sometimes as an entrepreneur.

Absolutely.

We're just talking about this before, like, the things that we do to get in the right rooms. It makes such a difference when you surround yourself with incredible people. And I'm so blessed to have been connected with you through Mastermind that we're a part of. And having so many great conversations and getting your support along the way has been absolutely phenomenal. So I appreciate you so much, and I'm so excited to chat more with you about visibility here on the podcast.

So excited.

So just get things started. I'd love for you to share for my listeners a little bit of your background and where you started to where you are right now.

Yes, well, my background's actually in sales, and which is one of the things I loved about you from our first conversation is I could tell, like, we're very similar in our values and the way that we look at things. And having a sales background, when you and I, you did a sales audit for me, and I'm like, wow. I mean, you blew me away. So I'll just say that first.

Thank you.

So my background, I was a journalist by education. I've always loved curious, communicating and writing. And just the stories. I literally. I see people in stories, and I studied that, and then I did it during college. I worked as a reporter at a daily. A daily paper for three years. And I determined I did not want to have to bartend to support my journalism habit. So I was like, I need to do something I can actually support myself in. And I went into the world of sales at 23, right out of college, and I was fortunate to get into real estate sales and on the developer side. So in the United States, that looks like builders or developers building large communities, typically in the sunny states. And I did that for almost 13 years and, you know, very much, like, went up the corporate ladder. I started in sales, and I think my top year, I closed, sold and closed 165 homes, which is basically every other day. It was. It was looking back, I'm like, that's what disrupted my nervous system and burn out my adrenals in my 20s. And then I went into management and was a VP of sales in California and in kind of across the Southwest and managed over a billion dollars of sales. And I Loved it. I loved the challenges. What I didn't love in that corporate structure was I was the firefighter. And my personality is. I love a challenge. But it got to the point that every night I was like listening to 90 minutes of buyers that were upset, you know, and they were always elevated to me. And then I was drinking a couple glasses of wine and I became an entrepreneur in 2015. After about 13 years of that, I said I would like a little more control over my destiny. And the beautiful thing though is, is understanding sales and marketing has absolutely led to the success that I have now. Though I will say I never imagined that visibility in my journalism background would come full circle and be part of what I do today.

It's so funny, isn't it? Like, the level of our experience before starting any of our businesses. I feel like it always comes back around full circle. Like when I first started my podcast, which had been going back for about five years now. Like, I remembered a time I was in high school where I did an elective learning how to be a radio presenter. Wow. And I, like, I don't even know why I joined that class. Like, I probably was a cute boy in the class or something. But like, years later, it coming back around as a skill that I needed in order to support my business. Like, it's so bizarre how so many things that you learn along the way support you for where you're going. And sales is one of those things, right? Like when you come from that corporate background as myself as well, like, there's this level of expertise that you develop and resilience. Like, and I'd love to know. I'm going to talk all things visibility, but I want to dive firstly into. Because it just came to mind with that structure when in corporate and in sales, like, for me it was, you know, you were having to hit certain goals every single month. You have to be across your numbers. Like, you'd have to go, go, go all the time. I feel like that ruined our adrenals. Like, I feel like there's elements to that that just ruined our nervous system where we were wired to like, try and hustle all the time. So I'd love to hear like your journey with that and then how that's then played into your business.

This could be an entire PO in a book. I do want to say because to what you said about, like, often what we have done in the past, it leads to what we're doing. I don't think we can see that as we're jumping into the new thing I think it's often when we look, in hindsight, we're like, wow. And I felt that I'm like, wow. I'm actually perfectly positioned for where I am based upon all these random passions, experiences, you know, things that I've been educated in. But it didn't always feel that way when you're trying something new. But back to your question. Yeah, that is an entire telenovela right there. I. I was not a stranger to hard work. I grew up on a farm in rural Oregon, which is in the Pacific Northwest. My dad's a commercial fisherman. My stepdad's a well driller. So, like, we're sitting here in makeup and hair right now, and we look fancy, but the reality is, like, I knew how to grind. And I would get a lot of. I would get. I mean, not just achievement, but I would get a lot of people, like, saying, oh, wow, you're such a hard worker. And I really valued a big part of who I was on how hard I worked and how I could outwork anyone. And it wasn't necessarily to compete with other people, but it was like, how much further can I go? And in corporate, that was it. I mean, the reason I sold, yes, it got, oh, celebrated, applauded, rewarded, bonus. You know, all of that. I mean, all of that behavior was constantly applauded. And so I got the, you know, internal validation, but I also got the financial validation. And I mean, I remember I would routinely work all nighters once a week. And I. In fact, I had a wonderful mentor my first year. Again, I was brand new in it. And I remember after about six months, he's like, you have got to take a day off. And when I say a day off, I don't mean from five days a week. I mean seven days a week. I was going to the office seven days a week. We could take clients six days. It was called an up system. You're probably familiar with that. And then on the seventh day, we could take appointments. So I would see clients every day. And after six months, he's like, if you don't take a day off, I'm gonna fire you.

My God.

So on that day, I snuck into the office at 5am intending to be out by 8 because no one would get there till 8:30 because we opened at 9. And he came in at 8 right as I was about to leave, and he laughed and he's like, rebecca, go.

You have a problem?

Yeah. He's like, go. He said, no, enjoy your life. Because he was. You know, I had kids my age. He Goes, go home, enjoy your life. Like, you know, get a massage, like, get something, like do something for fun. But I also had grown up, you know, in a, in a. I would say my mom was a single mom. So I grew up in a situation of like, the fact I could make six figures or multiple six figures was never something I dreamed of. And the beautiful thing is it got me to rewrite my money stories very early on. The bad thing is, again, me getting up at 3. I would wake up at 2, 3am, check my email. I would pride myself on being the first one to respond.

Wow.

And I look back that I'm like, that's so sad. And now I'm developing this poor nervous system.

Oh my God.

I'm, you know.

Yeah.

Now at 44, you know, this is 20 years later and I am still rebuilding my adrenals and my nervous system and, you know, being out of that culture. And I think that's partly also the generation, like, for people that are in their mid to late 30s and older, it's very much. It was applauded.

Yeah.

And it still, by the way, is applauded in corporate. Even when they're like wellness programs this. But they expect you to be available.

Right.

And now in the way that I treat myself, in the way that I treat my team, I'm like, all right, once a month we have, you know, three day weekends. And the only message or email I want to see from you is if you're going to share the fun thing you're doing on Friday, not how you're getting caught up.

Love it. So good. I love that you now instill that in your team because it's one of the things that a lot of Australian companies bring in are the four day work week.

Yes.

Which is so good. And I did these studies where they had. They basically ran it with a few different companies in Melbourne and they basically had a couple of companies saying like, yeah, we're happy to try trial it for six months. And the majority of companies that did it within like three to four months, they were like, we're putting this in permanently.

100.

Because it's so much more effective for productivity, happiness, morale. Like, it honestly made such a big impact in their company. They were like, why did we not do this before? And then even just recently, they've brought in a new law where your boss can't contact you outside of work hours.

That's so good. I think France does that as well.

Yeah. So good.

And I have team members all over the world. Like one of my Team members is in Spain. So she has slightly different hours than I do. But I still like, I'm like, if I'm going to text you on the weekend, it's a friend text. It's not a. What is it? Where is this deadline? But I do that for myself now is I've time blocked my schedule. So, you know, Mondays I have CEO days, I do one group call and I do no one on one calls. It's just my day to get stuff done. Tuesday, Wednesdays I see clients. Thursdays are kind of a collaboration day. Coffee chats, that's when you and I talk. And then Fridays is my creative day. So sometimes I meet with my astrologist or a friend or, or I do like, like, well, it's Wednesday today, but normally it's like this. It's like a podcast interview. Something that feels creative and doesn't feel like an obligation. It feels like I get to.

Yeah.

So I would say as an entrepreneur, hopefully we don't have too many things feel like we're obligated to do.

So I'd love to know like with your experience of then coming from corporate and then into your business now, is there anything else that you do to support yourself with, you know, preventing burnout?

Well, first of all, I'll say this has been a 10 year journey. Like I am celebrating 10 years as an entrepreneur and I very much did it very wrong from the get go. I, I would say the first few months I did it great because I was like, yay. I have no schedule and my husband was traveling for work. And so the first three months we did two weeks in Australia, actually in Sydney and Melbourne and we did two weeks in Italy. And so I was doing a very different schedule. Then I'd work, you know, half the day and then go sightsee. But what I found is, especially after having my first child is I needed to like time block and, and I was time blocking all the time and I was still working weekends. I didn't have good boundaries and that was actually why visibility became very important for me is I felt like I had taken off when I became an entrepreneur because I was, I was using the gas of passion. But after my dream job became my regular everyday occurrence, I fell back in a lot of those same patterns. And it's so ingrained in you. It's so ingrained. Yeah, it's so ingrained. And especially at the time, the type of coaching that I was doing was much more on the life side. And I'm an enneagram 7 to 8. So the 7 is the visionary, the 2 is the helper, and the 8 is the, like, the take charge, the challenger. I was very in my two where I was like, I want to help people all the time. So if I had someone had a question, I'm certified in holistic health and nutrition. I do not do that for people now. But at the time I was like, looking at people's food and when you get into some of those areas like food, emotions, et cetera, I became very available and people could text me at all times. And I just didn't create healthy boundaries. I carried the same boundaries or lack of boundaries that I did from corporate. And that caused problems in all areas of my life. And it really, I think, robbed me of a lot of my joy and satisfaction as a wife, as a mother, even though I was the caregiver for the first year until I hired a nanny and I was like, I can't have a full time job and be a full time mom and also be like, fully balanced. But no. So as far as burnout, I can, I can share through the lens of having gone through it multiple times. And it's one thing in corporate when you hit a deadline or you hit a, you hit, you know, a crazy goal and they're like, great, you did it. Now you're gonna do it again, but now we're gonna make it 20% harder. Yeah, right. You're like, huh? I white knuckled it to the finish line, you know, and it was like.

Oh, I killed myself for this.

Yeah, exactly. And so there's, you know, everybody wants more and more and more. It's, what have you done for me lately? And then I did the same thing as an entrepreneur. So for the many times I've had burnout, and I will say I've never gone to the yarn from burnout in entrepreneurship like I did in corporate. Thinking I was having a heart attack. That was kind of my wake up call is at 31, I was a VP and I thought I was having a heart attack. And I went to the ER and fortunately was just a panic attack. But I looked at it, I was like, I can't keep doing this. It took me another three years to make a change, though. So I'll say, like, whoever's listening, if they're like, I'm there, also understand it may not happen overnight. Yeah.

But it's unlearning those behaviors, unlearning the mindset belief systems that are actually driving that behavior. Like some of this story is very resonant with me. Like with it, with coming from sales and corporate and like doing the same behaviors, the boundaries piece, like I was exactly the same in the early stages of my business and recognize that for me to serve more people, I'm going to need to have better boundaries in place. And now it's one of those things like, and even though I recognize as a self sabotaging behavior was underlying, it was that helper kind of energy of like you want to help and that makes you be more accessible and think that you have to get back to things really fast when really that's not the case. And so learning to actually really build good boundaries in place actually supports you being able to be better at what you do. And I think that that doesn't get celebrated enough.

It doesn't. And it teaches it. The thing is, is when you have those boundaries, it teaches your, your clients, your, your prospects, your team to also have those same boundaries because they become dependent 100%.

I mean, I'm serving anyone.

I was with one of my former bosses who's still one of my best friends and we worked together for I think almost seven years this weekend. And you know, I wanted to show up for her because I saw how hard she worked. So then I worked hard and then my employees worked hard and it was this non stop. And it's interesting, as we gotten older and our kids are different ages, we both like have much better boundaries. And it's not that we don't care, it's that we understand that caring, we can't allow it to actually like break us down physically, emotionally, mentally. Because it's not worth it. Because you have nothing left to give.

Exactly.

But for burnout. So there's a couple of different things. And I think that it's easy to identify when we're in it because it feels like you're flatlining. That's what overwhelmed to me feels like is like I can't breathe, I have no space, everything feels heavy. And I can remember being there two years ago and I'm sitting here, I'm going, I have the business that I want, I have a team. I have all of these beautiful things that I have asked for and I've gotten and I'm not happy. And that's a really hard thing because it's easy when you're blaming someone else. Like, well, I'm in this job, but it's. My boss is doing this to me, right? Which we should never be blaming anyone.

Complete control of everything that I'm creating and I'm still not happy.

Yes, and so I am also. I'm the only one to blame, and I'm the only one to thank, because in corporate, you can always go get another job. But again, if you don't change the patterns or if you don't look for different things, you will end up with the same reality with a different view. So I was sitting there and I was like, I am totally flatlined. And the universe always presents itself at that time. And I had two opportunities that came up, and one of them was the opportunity to join in a startup. And I said, I have zero bandwidth. I didn't have time to get on a call to hear the idea that someone wanted to propose to me. I've made the time. And then they tell me about it. And I said, I don't have time to do this, but I couldn't not do it. The other thing was I lived in Palm Springs years ago. I love Palm Springs. And I had looked for a home there for years, like, as a second home. And literally this is like the same week this house appeared in my email. And I'm like, there's something wrong with it. It's way too cheap. I'm licensed. I've been licensed as a real estate agent for 20 years. It's like a side thing. Not even really a side thing. It's. I'm still licensed and I do a little bit, but I went, wait a second. I have these two opportunities and I have zero bandwidth. And if I want to do something, something has to give. And I really believe that when we say I want this thing, but we're unwilling to take the action, to actually create the space or change the structure or make it happen, the universe will test us to see how bad do you really want it.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's so interesting how that happens. And sometimes it's almost like a. A dangling carrot of, like, you know, how dedicated are you to really holding this new version or new vision for yourself and that you say that you want these things, but are you really willing to give or give it all.

To go to that area or give something up?

Yes. Yes.

And that's. That's the hardest thing. And I. Even now, I mean, there's days, like, I've been in a slow period on purpose, you know, since you and I first met, since this February through August, and it's felt amazing. And then I, you know, sometimes I look at my calendar, I went, oh, wow, how did I do this to myself? And individually, every single thing is something I chose. I've gotten very good about not taking on obligations that I don't want to do about not doing things for people, pleasing. And yet you still can create a space where there's no room for magic. And, you know, you and I both are big fans of Chris Harder, and he talks about leaving room for magic. A few weeks ago, Lori reached out to me and my company does PR for Glossy. Her company. And she's like, hey, it was like 8 o' clock at night. She's like, hey, I have two opportunities tomorrow. Are you available only like, 20 or 30 minutes to speak to two different groups.

Oh.

Which is amazing. I mean, literally, I've known Laurie, you know, known Laurie for more than a decade and spoke on our stage for the first time a few months ago. And I mean, this is what I had literally desired for a decade. And I said, lori, and I kind of laughed. I went, I didn't leave any room for magic tomorrow. And unfortunately, I have to turn both of these down. I could not rejiggy my schedule to make it happen.

My goodness.

And that's when you're like, wait, like, what is the point here? And I know, like, intellectually, we often know, like, I don't need to prove myself. I can put down the badge. I hate when people say, you're so busy. I'm like, no, no, no, no. I am not busy. My life is full. Right. Because I love that I don't need to have a packed calendar to feel important like I did in corporate. I don't need to have a drowning inbox, even though sometimes I do, to feel like people need me.

Yes. And, like, I think what I'm hearing from you as well is like, learning to, like, know where to say yes and where to say no. And I think that's one of the biggest things when you're evolved further along in your entrepreneurial journey. In the beginning, you say yes. You say yes to every opportunity. Hundred percent. Then there comes a time where you have to be a little bit more discerning and then start to determine, like, is this going to serve the growth of my business? Is this going to get me closer to my goals? Versus is this just a cool opportunity to also allow. But also, like, I just love that you shared that. I heard someone on a podcast recently that she did that, like, just made space in her calendar for the magic. And it's like, it made me stop and think, like, when was the last time you actually did that?

You literally planning it. And it's something I teach my clients from the beginning because, yes, I have a business and visibility coach. But there's a lot of life to that because if you don't have the space to breathe, like, how are you going to show up if you're on tv?

Yeah.

Right. When you're like, back to back. And I've done that to myself. I've scheduled. Scheduled myself where I was going right into a TV interview and I'm like, oh, my gosh, my laptop won't turn on. Or, you know, something happens and you don't have that space and you're. Then you're feeling frazzled and I mean, I can put on a good stage face, but the way your nervous system feels is going to show up very differently.

And people feel that. Absolutely feel that.

They absolutely feel it. The other thing I was going to share is, you know, yes, add in space to your calendar. But I also am a big fan of, like, revising things every quarter because it's not just what's working now, but, like, we continue to evolve. I mean, seasonally. Like, you have very different seasons, but, you know, I have a different level of motivation in the summer than I do in the winter, you know, depending on the time of my cycle. And I think we should give ourselves permission to, like, really understand that. And. And then back to that story I was telling you those two things. I ended up deciding, what am I willing to give up what is on my calendar? That maybe it's really what I wanted two or three years ago. And I think that's where we get stuck is we're like, but this is the thing I wanted. And you're like, yes, but you're now a different version of yourself. And that thing that you did or you achieved or that activity, habit, commitment may no longer be aligned with where you're going. And we really have to continue to look at where are we going, not just where have we been or where even are we right now.

And I think I agree with you completely. And I think there's an element there of sometimes, like, learning just to let go and surrender. And that's always been really challenging for me. Like, very much in the past, it was like the surrender felt like it felt different. It felt like it was a loss rather than actually opening up space. And so I love that, like this elements of your evolution in your business where you do actually just need to let go of some things and, you know, in order to allow in more magic.

Well, I can share a tool that I. Yeah, I don't know that I created this, but it's what works for me. So one Is I like to do an obligation audit and I go through everything. So you look at your, your calendar, you look at your habits, and you literally go through and you say, like, does this feel like an obligation? Does this feel like something that is giving me energy? Or does it feel like something that's taking away energy from me? And it's important, I think, to not say, like, is this a good or bad thing? Because when your schedule is full of good things. Yeah, it's not like, I hate this. Right. It's more of, is this taking me closer or further away from where I want to go and who I want to be and the goals that I have set or the way I want to feel even? And look at, you know, you can do the, like, what can I automate, delegate, delete for sure. But if, if it doesn't light you up, like, yes, if it doesn't require your face, your brain, your voice. Right. But if it also, if it doesn't light you up, that doesn't mean everything we do is going to feel like expansive all of the time. Sometimes we have to get through the thing we don't want to do to the other side. But that's the first. Another is if you're feeling overwhelmed. Look at is what I'm feeling. Like it's a really full week. And yes, maybe if I do put in a few hours overnight or maybe if I do put in three hours on that Saturday, I just need to finish or close a loop and then I'm going to feel space. Or is this something that I'm in perpetually? Because that is a bigger, that's a bigger, like redirect or reversal.

Yeah, totally. Oh, speaking to my soul right now. Loving this so much. So I'd love to know, like now when it comes to you supporting other people with developing their visibility, firstly, let's just start with visibility. Why do you believe it's so important?

Well, I call this the expert triangle. Like, all of us want to be great at what we do, right? And not just for ego. I mean, some people want awards, some people want the validation. But like, we want to feel confident and strong in who we are, in what we do in the world and who we serve. And that to me is like, it's really important. But if you're the best kept secret, how are you gonna actually create the impact you're meant to? So when I think about being an expert, I think an expert is someone that is credible. Credibility is someone believing that you can do what you say you're gonna Do. Yeah, right. Doesn't mean, like, I'm just gonna change my occupation tomorrow. Now pivoting, I'm an expert. Exactly. It doesn't mean, like, I just took, you know, a course on Udemy, and, like, now I'm certified, but. But it's like, can I deliver a transformation, you know, in my services, my products, my offers? Like, is it create change? Then the second is eyes on you. Visibility, right? Is like, whose eyes are on you? Because you could be very credible. And I've worked with a lot of doctors actually on this, or people that, you know, they have these amazing resumes or LinkedIns, and you look at them and you're like, yeah, you. You're credible, but they have zero audience. And you can't monetize credibility without having it visible. Now, that doesn't mean you need 10,000 followers or a million followers. It doesn't mean you need a massive email list. Like, some of my most successful clients, they. They operate in a totally different way. They operate with power partners or by referral. So it may be less eyes, but it's the right eyes and it's a deeper connection. So you have to say, like, is my business going deeper or wider? Right. Or my brand? And so why visibility became important to me is when I left my job, I thought I was giving up all the credibility that I had as a VP of sales, as someone who, you know, had all these, like, really fancy awards and titles. And so I was like, oh, coaching. Completely different thing. The reality, it wasn't. I mean, I had been managing, though.

That some people think, like, oh, you're starting a business, then all your experience previously to starting the business doesn't exist, but it actually totally does.

I wish that I had me when I was doing this. Right. Because now I help people of, like, how do you reposition yourself utilizing your existing knowledge, experience? I mean, even, you know, testimonials to position yourself was where you're going again, not where you've been. But I was coaching for probably about three years, I think. I left my job in 2014, so it was 2017. And I'm like, I know I'm good at what I do. I know that my clients are getting transformative results, but I don't feel like anyone else understands this. Right. And you don't. I mean, you talk about sales calls. You don't have to spend the entire sales call convincing someone why you're legitimate, why you're credible. You want it to be opposite of sales. It's literally opposite. You want to be you want to be consulting. You want to be asking questions and determining is this person a good fit? You know, is it like a Mutual interview?

100%.

So I was in this position, and I was like, I know a lot about sales, but a lot of people aren't seeing me. This is more the marketing side. Right. And I think it was because of my degree in journalism. Like, what popped into my head is I need pr, right? Like, public relations. Like, very old school. This is, you know, 1980, baby here. And I reached out to a couple of different PR agencies that were referred by people I knew and trusted. And I sat down on a call with them. And you have probably experienced something like this where I said, okay, tell me a little bit about what you do, you know, and how it's going to make me more. I mean, yes, I understood being more visible. Like, how is this gonna impact my bottom line?

Yeah.

And they said a lot of like, oh, we're going to, you know, we're going to pitch you to places. We're going to get you in some things. But I was like, but how does this actually drive the needle? Because it's a big investment. I mean, PR can be anywhere from four to $10,000 a month. And I'm like, if I'm spending, you know, $30,000 minimum, how do I know this is going to drive, ideally, not 30,000, but 60, $90,000 more of revenue? And then also the Cinderella or the Dorothy. I say the Dorothy. Red slippers of, like, you had the power all along, but you feel more confident. And none of them could give me an answer that my sales brain was like, yeah, no, no, no.

Tell me the result you're going to get.

Exactly.

Such a sad thing to ask.

No, it was very much like, let's throw things against a wall. So.

And you were like, let me teach you how to sell.

Yes. Well. Or let me teach you, like, what a deliverable is. I need to, like, you shouldn't make a big investment without having some type of idea of what is the outcome going to be. And so I decided. I was like, you know what? I'm not gonna hire any of these people. And I don't know if it was immediately, but I ended up going. I ended up taking a friend of mine who owns a PR agency, very small in fashion tech. I'm not. I was like, why aren't you pitching me? She's like, you're not my ideal client. I'm like, good for you. You know that. But we took her out for a mani pedi. And I just used the time. I hate the. I hate the phrase picking your brain. I know, but I was like, let me ask you a few questions. And I asked her just a few questions, and she gave me, like, one or two tips, and I just, like. I, like, pulled the thread. And so that year, just with the one or two tips, and again, not getting overwhelmed by the abyss of what I did not know, I was like, I'm a good writer, and, like, I can figure this out. And so I. I just miserably failed. Not miserably. I fabulously failed forward. And I gave myself permission to have really crappy first drafts. And that year, I had over 20 media mentions. Some of them were, you know, a quote in, like, Women's Health or U.S. news World Report. Some of them were full articles and interviews. This was even before podcasting. Like, I said, 2017, and it. It helped. Yeah, I felt different. I was able to put the logos on my website. And then I started having. I noticed the calls were getting way easier. People are like, oh, wow, you're doing, like, really important things. And my current clients were like, this is really cool. So I was like, okay, this is working. I'm kind of figuring it out. It's cool. But then what I noticed really changed is one, as I started to raise my rates, no one said a word. In fact, they were like, oh, yeah, you were way too cheap. I did not get that feedback prior to that. The second thing is I had a client. She was my. Actually, my old national VP of sales in my public career.

Always comes back around.

It's so crazy. Yeah. And she was. She was, like, wanting to develop, you know, brand on the side. And she came to me and she said, rebecca, how are you getting all, like, all this media? And I said, oh, I can't tell you. I mean, I wasn't, like, trying to be secretive. I just said, abby, I'm doing it all wrong. I would be embarrassed. I don't even have a, like, a defined process because I was a little bit of a perfectionist. And she's like, just come on, just tell me. And after a few calls, I finally said, okay, I'll teach you, but I want you to know this is a very hot mess.

Yeah.

And I would like to tell you she got, like, similar results to me, but she didn't. She got significantly better results.

Oh, wow.

Because I had spent a year getting better, like, seeing, like, oh, that seemed like it worked, or I got that feedback, or this got, you know, this pitch landed, and this other One didn't. So I gave her the knowledge that I had starting from that day, and she went forward with it in 90 days. She had, I think she was in prayed Forbes Entrepreneur Today, like paid speaking engagements, got coaching clients, podcasts. And I went, oh my gosh. Actually reminded me I needed to keep focusing on this. Right. And then I ended up, I started to teach workshops on it. And people just had so much positive feedback. And it wasn't just that, like, what I was teaching was powerful. It was that what I was really teaching is it was demystifying that you needed to have all these skills or you needed to understand pr. Because my degree was in print journalism. That's a newspaper. It was not npr. What I could do is write a bio and answer a question. Yeah, right. And it demystified the fact that, like, you don't have to be an expert in it. And so I started teaching the average person how to pitch themselves, how to get in media. Started out with newspapers and like print, digital. And then it started being TV and then podcast and speaking engagements. And now when I think about visibility, I look at it as like anywhere that you're being seen as the expert or as a thought leader in your space, like, that's visibility. And sometimes it's. It's one on one. Yeah, right. It's in a coffee chat, it's in a small group networking.

Yeah, that's it. Because more people who know what you do and who you help and how you, how you work, like, it just changes. Like it gives the ability for other people to then recommend you as well. Like there's so many other elements to it. It's not just the, the mention, it's the impact that it has people to know how to recommend you.

And I do want to say I wasn't any better like the year before, or I mean, I got better because I was still coaching another year, but. But just because someone's in media or on TV does not mean that they're like that great. And that's actually my pet peeve is I'm like, there's a lot of people out there that are being seen because they're paying for it. And that there's nothing, Listen, there's nothing wrong with paying for it. I take a few paid PR clients a year. There's nothing wrong with it. But I think that there's something so freeing about having the tools to be able to promote yourself. And as business owners, we have a responsibility and a privilege to promote our business if we believe in what we're doing.

Yeah. And PR is such a great way to do that, get more eyes on your business. That makes everything else so much easier in your business.

It does. It shortens the conversations. Yes.

So I want to talk more about that because what you just described there of like obviously being able to increase your prices, get better reach, builds a whole level of trust and credibility. What is it your take on that? Like obviously the level of setting yourself up, Are they saying you're an expert or creating that level of value for people to see you as an expert? How does PR do that?

Well, the first thing I'll say is that especially with DIY pr, so doing it on your own, you're probably not going to do it if you don't have. You might. Some, some people are just massively confident. Right. But most people are actually going to be their own toughest critics.

Yeah.

But what it forces you to do that I think is so powerful and so needed is it forces you to be able to summarize who you are, what you offer, what's different about what you offer, how it's relevant to what's going on in today's world. It's pretty, in a pretty concise fashion. And often, especially when we're in beginning stages of whatever we're doing, we're trying to do all the things so it forces you to get pretty clear and to give that clear message to someone else. That does not mean it can't shift. I mean my first media wins in 2017 were like healthiest pizzas. And I, I what I actually learned from this. Here's a good story. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. And I used to pitch for any what's called so there's different types of opportunities. You can pitch something like I can cold pitch, say hey, here's who I am. And I think this article would be really great. Or I think this topic or there's actually, I call it dating sites, like reporter expert dating sites where they're like, hey, I'm working on a pitch right now. I have three days. Here's the three questions I want answered. And you just answer their questions. I like to start with those because it's like the low hanging fruit. But I would get a lot of questions that came across my email and I'm like, oh, I could talk about this because like I said, I'm certified holistic health and integrated nutrition, by the way. Passion of mine, not what I want to do. And so I pitched on this article of what is healthier than breakfast Cereal. And so I had made everything. Well, yeah, everything.

But.

Well, I mean, listen, if you're doing like my protein breakfast cereal, it's gluten free with like pea protein milk, you know, it's pretty healthy. But I wrote what I knew was going to be sensational. I was like, this is how pizza is healthier than breakfast cereal. And I talked about it being gluten free and dairy free and like loaded with fresh veggies. Well, that not only got picked up but it got syndicated. So it was in over 130 publications. That article and my quote. So there was like two years where when you googled me, about half of what came up on the first three pages were related to pizza being healthier than breakfast cereal. I was technically a business coach. I did not want my information about, you know, my thoughts and opinions on pizza to be out there. But so I think it's really important. And what it does is it forces you to get really clear on what am I actually focused on, where do I want to deliver value and who do I want to deliver value to? Because if someone is a, you know, hardcore Christian, they're probably not going to be talking in a publication that's completely on the other side. Or if they're like a vegan, you probably don't want to be in like NRA magazine. So it's really understanding, like where do I want my message to be heard and what is my message and for who is it for and who do.

I want to be known as? Like what I want to be known for? Like figuring that out. Yes. Yeah, you're so right. Because when you do get on those sites, it's always the case, you're like, oh, I can speak about this, I can speak about this. Is it relevant to my business?

Well, and am I excited and is it where I'm going? And the other thing I think that people get really tripped up over is there is this invisible barrier between someone starting out now. You could be creating great content on social media. You could even be talking to your email list, like doing a lot of things where especially in the service based industries we need to do. However, when you start to think about like, how am I seen as a thought leader, how like if somebody wanted to book a live podcast like this or they want to get on tv, it's really hard, or on a stage, it's really hard to get those opportunities even if you're pitching, much less being asked to do them. Because I'm at the point now where I haven't Actually pitched myself. I mean, occasionally I'll pitch myself for media, but I'm getting asked back, whether it's podcasting or it's newspapers, because, you know, I have relationships. And that's the goal is you get to the place where you have relationships that are providing a lot of your. Your visibility experiences. Yeah. Your opportunities. But it's like, well, how do you show something you haven't done? And, and that's like one of the biggest things in my mastermind is that's what we focus on is like ensuring that person is not just. Doesn't just feel like an expert, but they are positioned and shown as an expert. So, you know, that could be hiring your photographer, videographer, hiring a peer space or an Airbnb and getting B roll of you with a microphone off of Amazon that you can put into a speaker role, you know, or before you've done a podcast, like, you can, you can go on Zoom and do a podcast selfie and, you know, put it on YouTube. Like, there's a lot of ways that we can kind of do it on our own.

Yeah.

To at least. Yeah. It's like to. To climb the wrong one higher. To put yourself in the realm of other opportunities.

So true. My goodness. I remember when I first got asked to actually pitch myself for a speaking gig. It was for a keynote for a global retail brand. And at the time I was like, yes. Oh my God, this would be amazing. I'd love a keynote. And she said to me, the girl who was asking me to pitch, she said, can you send me some video so I can then pitch you to the GM and they'll see if they like your vibe and then they'll put you forward. And I was like, I've got nothing. Yeah, I've got nothing. I've got videos, but I don't want to share them. Like, there's. There was nothing there that I was like, that feels confident in order to share that in order to land that speaking gig. And that was a big wake up call for me because I was like, oh, I want to speak more, but I'm actually not right being the person that will actually be invited to speak. And so there's definitely some elements there to kind of set up. What I'm hearing from you is that there's a couple of things you need to kind of set up before you.

Start going for PR and you're gonna have to invest. I mean, the reality is, is you can't expect to look like a million dollar brand if you don't invest. To look like a million dollar brand. So again, that's professional videography or, you know, hair, makeup, all of those things. But you don't necessarily have to do it. I'll tell you. Because I do a. I've done a live event for four of them in the last four years. And we, you know, take speaker applications, unless it's someone I'm asking personally, because I know them. And I think I got about 80 or 90 applications for the last event for three or four spots. And one of the things I say, video one, video two. Like, you've got to have videos. Sometimes people will put in an Instagram reel, which isn't a bad thing because it shows they're in front of a group. But the problem is there usually has music or a voiceover, so I can't really tell. And I want something more than 30 seconds because you could have stood up. I want to know that, like, do they have the level of confidence? Have they done this before?

Can they hold room? Like, there's so much more events, right? Like, they can be great on a podcast, but doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be amazing to hold space.

For a group of people and, but also understand it doesn't always have to be that, like, oh, it has to be stage to stage. I actually booked a keynote for someone that didn't have a keynote that she could show me, but she had an incredible master class. And I watched an hour and I was like, okay, this woman can deliver. She can hold the energy. The other thing is, and this is just a personalized touch, and I think this goes really well with everything. I had a woman the year before that sent me her. Her videos. And her second video was a personalized video to me. So it was just her on zoom. And she's like, hey, Rebecca, I'm so and so. So she introduced herself. She's like, this is why I'm so excited. She actually like, future projected why I'm so excited to be talking to your audience. And I was so blown away that she just, I mean, it probably took her 10 minutes, right? But she had the courage and the audacity to like, just do something that was a little outside of the box. And so even though she didn't have as much speaking experience as some of the other people, I ended up booking her for RVIP night to lead an exercise because I'm like, I love that she was, again, she was audacious. She was courageous.

Yes. Love that so much. So when it comes to like developing your visibility Women that you work with. I'd love to know what are some of the barriers that you see when it comes to being more visible.

Like the one is that they're, you're, you're wanting something that you haven't done.

Yeah.

And you're not able to show it. So I'll just give an example. A lot of the women that come into my mastermind, they've never spoke before, but they know that's where they want to go. So, you know, we teach them how to get media, we support them in media.

I never spoke, not even like on camera.

Social media, I mean, they probably, like, they've done Zoom, maybe they've even done like a podcast interview on Zoom. But getting up onto a stage or on a panel is a totally different thing. Right. And actually the story, I'll tell you, my midwife, so she joined my Mastermind two years ago and she's like, I'm terrified. And that's why I know I need to do this. And I told her, I'm like, you are so passionate and determined. And she's very riveting when she's in her zone of genius. But she was really nervous and most of it was because she's like, I haven't done it. I don't know how to put a slide deck together. So it was actually all these other logistical things. She just, she texted me on my, on the plane ride. She just keynoted at the national associate or national conference for midwives, and she was told that she had the best talk there.

Amazing.

Now this is from being on a panel and she's done a couple other things now, but it's like you, you have to be willing to put yourself out there. But what she was able to submit to them is she had done a virtual summit with me, a 15 minute TEDx style. So that is, can you, can you deliver a message, can you tell a story? Like, can you inform, can you inspire and can you help someone to integrate what they're learning? Right. She had B roll video, so she had a speaker reel, even though she hadn't done a lot of stuff. Like you can pay an editor 200 to $500 to build a speaking reel with a voiceover. I mean, something like this, right? Like, you don't have to have actually been on stages, but you can deliver yourself at a high level of professionalism. That's going to get you those opportunities to show you're serious. And the funny thing is, a lot of times speaking opportunities, you don't get video. I've done some of my biggest keynotes. I did, like, a panel in front of 5,000. I've done a keynote in front of, like, 150, and I never got video footage. So sometimes even if you are keynoting or even if you have so many.

Of mine, I don't have video of.

It all, or the lighting's terrible or the sound's bad. Right. So you still might need to, like, like, judge up or kind of, you know, cinematize, like, what you're showing someone.

Yeah, so true. So true. I love this is it. What else. What else shows up for people when those barriers, like, is there the mindset blocks? Like, I feel like there's a lot of. When we come talk about, like, becoming an expert in your industry, like, do you find that you have a lot of women that struggle with the word expert, that they worry about being seen at that level?

They all know they're good. I don't think that changes. They typically aren't working with me unless they're like, I know I'm really good at what I do, but I'm struggling again, to feel like, like other people know it. What I often see they struggle with is actually it's the safety around visibility of putting themselves out there in a bigger way. People feel like they're gonna be judged. People feel like someone else is gonna say, well, you're not actually that good. And the reality is, most people who are putting themselves out there, we celebrate. We celebrate. Exactly. We're like, wow, right? And it's, again, it's not even usually their knowledge base because most people that, like, you hear talk on podcasts, like, you can hear someone with that level of value that is talking in a small group. And there's times that I've met people, I'm like, you're so magnetic. Like, how are you not out there everywhere? And it's because they just. There's just haven't. They haven't probably harnessed the courage to do it. And sometimes there's people that absolutely are. And you're like, you're out there a lot. And I don't know what you're really saying. I mean, typically, people are delivering value, but I think it's just really feeling the safety in actually being seen and being heard. And especially because I work with a lot of people, I'll say healers, so a lot of enneagram type twos. They're the helpers. And they're. They're like, they want to help people so much, but they're also worried like, is someone going to criticize me? Is someone going to think that I'm, like, too big for my britches? Is. You guys call it tall puppy syndrome?

Yes. Yeah.

Right?

Yeah. It's huge in Australia. Massive. And it keeps a lot of people playing small because we're so worried about being just torn back down after putting ourselves out there. Yet I feel like it's starting to shift a lot at the moment. So we're Pete, where, you know, new generations are coming up that don't really have that. So that's really good to see, because I think it just takes that courage to put yourself out there and prove to yourself that it's not actually going to happen necessarily. Like, we hear so many negative stories, but we often don't hear the positive stories. Right. And the majority of people that are out there, that are putting themselves out there, that are in the arena, they're never, ever judging other people that are doing that.

Well. The next thing I want to say is it's about visibility, but it's also just an entrepreneurship story, is you can't listen to people that don't understand what you're doing or where you're going. Right. I mean, most of us, when we, like, when I quit my job, people were like, what are you doing? You're insane. And you need to surround yourself with people that are, like, wanting to go a similar direction or encouraging you, like, have similar goals. Again, back to visibility. There's always going to be voices of people that are willing to criticize, judge, and typically, those are not the people that are actually doing things that you want to emulate in your life anyway. Like, usually really happy, successful people are not criticizing. Right. It's miserable people. So are you holding yourself back from for those people? And I'll also even myself, like, I've been visible, but I've realized this last year, I have a documentary coming out end of January. I should say not. It's not about me. It's about someone else, but I'm featured in it. And I was like, I don't care what people think. I feel, you know, I feel so comfortable being seen because I've been on national news tons of times and actually realized that there was, like, a deeper wound around feeling safe and feeling like I wasn't going to be criticized. I was like, oh, actually, the bigger the impact you have, the more you have to be willing to be seen. And there will be times that there will be people that will criticize. And the question is, is who are you giving more weight These People that you probably don't even know that are jealous, that don't have the life that you want, that haven't done the things that you're doing or that you want to be doing, or are you listening to the people that are around you, People with similar, you know, mission values, impact goals, and are you being lifted up by them? And whenever we get into that scared, like, you know, that scared place, it's usually that we're listening to people that are criticizing, not uplifting.

So true. Oh, my goodness, so true. And it's usually, like you said, they just, they're not living the life that they want to live. So that's easier for them to judge than to look at themselves and go, hang on a minute, maybe I should be putting myself out there. And I see other person going after their dreams, and I'm not doing that for myself.

Exactly right.

And I think, yeah, just really being conscious of who you let into your circle and who you look to for feedback because it's. It absolutely is a detrimental to your mindset.

You go after your actions and attention is not a bad thing. Especially as women, we've been told, like, you know, stay small. And like, if you, if you're raising your hand or if you're too loud, like, you're. You're a certain type of person. Right. You're. And you're judged for it. But the reality is, is like, how. I mean, you look at thought leaders in the world, they've made themselves very visible and that has absolutely affected the amount of impact they have in the world. Like, you are never going to be that impactful unless you are impacting, like, the biggest CEOs in the world. You're like, if I have a very good friend, that is the oh, shit call for, like, very important people. And so, you know, she impacts people in front of the camera behind, like, behind the scenes. But most people are not doing that. Most people are not going to be that person for people that are have thousands or hundreds of people behind them. And so, yes, if you want to create impact, you need to be willing to, you know, have a thicker skin.

Yeah. And develop it. Because I think that level of, like, rejection or judgment, we need to build it like a muscle. Right. It's one of those things. You just have to consistently put yourself out there and then build that strength around it so you can take the power out of it. Because often we just give it so much power and then it causes us to crumble. Instead of being like, it's part of the process. It's like failure. It's part of the process and it's.

Not going to kill you.

Yeah, exactly.

The first probably three times I did TV interviews, I literally, I was like, I feel like I'm gonna throw up. I'm so scared. And then it became fun. And now I'll get like a little flutter of nerves right before, but in 10 seconds I'm good. Same thing going on a stage, like, and that's okay. It means that we still care.

Yes.

But it doesn't have to be something that we need to be afraid of.

I love that. So if you were speaking to a thought leader today that wanted to be a thought leader, I should say wants to be a thought leader, what would.

Be the future thought leader?

Not aspiring future future thought leader. What would three steps be that you would suggest they start taking action on?

Well, what is. Who do you want to hear you that doesn't already know who you are now and where are those people? You know, because yes, I love print media or digital media now, most of it's digital, but the reality is if someone is only experiencing you in two dimensions, like they're reading you, but I feel like if someone really wants to be out there, they need to be like, they need to be as seen intimately as possible, which is three dimensional. It's like hearing you so podcast seeing you. Like anybody can fake who they are in 30 seconds on a real, but you, I mean, maybe if you're a really great actress, you could like fake who you are for 30 to 60 minutes. So one is, is be willing to be seen when you're not just the absolutely edited, like, you know, perfected, what do you call it, filtered version of yourself, long form content. The other is get really clear for what you stand for because again, there's a lot of good ideas and like I have, I could provide value on a lot of things. But like, what, what am I like willing to die for? Like, what is the thing that, that lights me up? What do I feel like everyone needs to know? And what do you wish people thought.

About visibility or PR that you think they need to think about it?

Visibility is not social media. Yeah, okay. There's a very big difference. Now that doesn't mean that you could not have social visibility from social media, but social media is very much what have you done for me lately? And the beautiful things about most type of visibility that I focus on. So tv, podcasting, speaking is all of that can be captured and really reused over and over and over to continue to build the credibility like, it's, it's, it's evergreen. Right. And once you've done it, you've done it.

Yeah.

You are a keynote speaker or you have been featured in this publication. Doesn't go anywhere where, like, you know, you go viral. And that was great last week. But how is it impacting you?

It's like another level up, by the sounds of it. That's how we build credibility, is we're actually seeing people being, you know, chosen or quoted that actually just takes that credibility to a whole new level.

Well, and your social media and your email list, even your podcast, if it's, if you're not getting new listeners, is all nurturing people that already know who you are. So ideally, visibility. Yeah, visibility is new eyes on your business. And again, this can be networking like you and I are going to be doing tomorrow, the dinner series. This can be, you know, coffee chats or referrals, but it's always about, like, introducing new people into your ecosystem.

Love it. So good. I love, absolutely love this chat. I know we can talk all day, but we'll have to wrap it up. I'd love for you to share one last piece of advice for someone who wants to take their business to the next level.

Invest in where you're going, not where you're at. I often hear people say, well, oh, you know, I don't know if I can afford that. Well, yes, the current version of you, that's probably going to feel like a stretch. But if you're really committed to going where you say you're going to be, how does that person make decisions? This doesn't mean, like, you need to try everything. I do believe you need to be aligned in the things that you're doing. But how does the person that is booking paid keynotes, like, how do they invest in their photography, their video, their branding, their personal development? And if there's something that's holding you back, like really holding you back from being visible, that's probably energetic work that needs to be done. That's something that is not, by the way, the best PR agency in the world is not going to fix that. That needs to be fixed with someone that is an energetics coach, a leadership coach, a healer.

Yeah, I love that so much. So good. I'd love for you to share where we can find you, hang out with you, learn more from you.

So you can find me on rebeccacafiero.com Social media, same thing. Rebecca Caffiero. And then you can listen to your podcast with me that we're about to do on my podcast becoming you.

Amazing. Thank you so much for joining me today.

I really appreciate you.

Welcome.