646 - How to Escape the Launch Hustle & Build a Course That Sells Itself with Caitlin Bacher

When it comes to selling courses or selling anything online, the launch model is one of the things that gets talked about a lot. And so when I invited Caitlin on the podcast today, I knew she'd be the perfect person to talk to when it comes to shifting from a launch model to more of an autopilot model. So thank you so much for joining me today, Caitlin.

Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here.

I'm excited that you're here as well. And I know that we're going to talk so much about courses and obviously shifting from the launch model to autopilot and Evergreen. I do that in air quotes, but I'd love to just get started. For the, for those of you or those who don't know you, who, who are listening on the podcast, would you mind just giving us a little bit of background about where you started with your business and where you've now built it to?

Sure. So right now we, our company helps course creators generate consistent revenue from their own courses without launching. However, it was quite a long and windy road to get here. So I actually started out as a social media manager. So I was managing accounts for clients. I would write their copy, create the graphics, do the scheduling, interact with their audience, all of that. And after I'd done that for a while, I felt like I, the lifestyle that I had built for myself didn't really have a lot of time freedom because I was always, you know, in the weeds doing that client work. And so I thought, you know what, it would be really cool to meet with people one on one and help them develop a social strategy that then they would implement for themselves. And so I did that for a while and I, I found that on all of those one on one calls, regardless of what the business was, I was taking them through kind of the same framework, same system to develop their social media strategy. And so I thought, you know what, let's try to create a course on this. Like, let's see where that takes us. And over the years, I sold a number of courses. So the first course that I created was all about social media marketing, because that was, you know, that was my experience at the time. And so I created that course and then I went on to create a course about Instagram later on a course about Facebook groups. And it was in selling that course about Facebook groups where I decided to make that transition from launching to Evergreen. And while I was selling that course on Evergreen, people were like, how are you doing this? And so then I came up with my. Our program that we're selling now. Scale with success. And we've been selling this one for the last seven years and it's been really a really exciting time. But I, along my course journey, I mean, I definitely made every mistake in the book.

Love it, Love it. So good. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I'd love to talk more about the mistakes because I'm sure the listeners, I feel like we learn the most from the mistakes. Do you agree?

Yes, absolutely.

Love that for someone, myself, like, I actually quite like launching. I don't mind it, but I do hear so much about people hating the launch model and how exhausting it is and how much goes into it. And I agree there's so much that goes into it and it is exhausting. Absolutely. But I also don't mind it, but I just want to hear like, what are some of the mistakes that you notice from then shifting to that auto. Sorry, the launch model. To the autopilot.

Yeah. So I'm glad you, you mentioned that you like launching because I think some people do like launching. And you know, if you're someone who is listening right now and you're thinking, well, Caitlin, I like launching and it works for me, that's awesome. Right. One of the things that I'm really passionate about is making sure that, you know, everyone understands that there's more than one right way to do something. And if you love launching, great. But if it's not something that you're into, you don't have to do it. Right. And before I get into kind of the mistakes that people make launching, I would love to kind of help clarify for your audience some of the main points of difference between launching an evergreen. Because, because I hear like evergreen, the word evergreen. I love that you put it in quotes at the beginning because I would too. And it's thrown around a lot in the digital marketing space. So basically, when it comes to selling courses, there's two main different models that people choose from. Right. There's the launch model and then evergreen. So launching typically requires somewhere between two to three months of really intense list building and content distribution, which is leading up what's called an open cart. And an open cart is the period of time when people, you are allowing people to enroll in your course, and that usually lasts between, you know, five to seven days and then the cart closes and nobody can buy your program again until the next launch, which is maybe six months or a year later. And what many course creators find is that once their launch ends, so does all of that momentum that they've been working so hard to build and it's basically, you know, radio silence until you begin the launch cycle all over again. And this is a very high risk way of selling your course, especially for course creators who, you know are making less than a million a year with a tiny team or no team at all and a non existent ads budget. And what I always tell people is if your course is generating less than a million a year, the number one thing that you really need to be focused on is how is learning how to generate consistent revenue so that you can get some traction in your business. Now with an evergreen model, you're able to enroll new students into your programs on an ongoing basis, not just once or twice a year. Which is great because it really puts you in that position where you can grow and scale over time. You can continue to collect data, look at, you know, what marketing messages are resonating with your audience. You basically have more opportunities to practice and get better.

Absolutely. And so what do you find? And I'm just, with what you just shared there, I feel like something that happens. There is one. Launching helps people get really crystal clear on what the communication needs to happen in order for a customer to buy. And yet with, I feel like there's like this challenge in between of like. But launching helps create a bit of urgency in order for a customer to have a decision making, you know, go through the decision making process in order to buy and you write like, then it goes crickets and then it's like, where am I? When am I going to sell again? And then it's also weird for the customer because it's like, well, how long do I have to wait before buying the thing that I actually need now? Like, there's so many things that go into it. But I think from the, I'm trying to think about it from the course grades perspective, they kind of like the launching model because it creates a bit of urgency in order to buy, whereas the Evergreen doesn't create that. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

So that's a very common misconception that people have is that, you know, if you're, if your course is evergreen, you're basically, you know, creating a sales page for your course. You're sticking it on your website. You're just sharing it all over the place on social media and just saying, hey guys, go buy whenever. Right? And that's the fastest way to go broke. And so I would not, I know that, you know, I see people doing that, but the reality is that you are Missing out on so many sales because you are driving people to a page where they're going to take a look at that page and if they don't want to buy, you have no way of following up with them in the future. Right. Like you don't have their email, you don't have anything. And so the strategy that I recommend when it comes to Evergreen is kind of there's three pieces of it. So the first, of course, is the marketing piece. Right. So that's when you are building your audience. And if you're selling an Evergreen course, you are building your audience and selling your course all at the same time. And so the content that you're posting on social media is really designed to attract, attract people who are experiencing the specific problem that your course helps them solve. Right. These are, you're educating people about the problems that they're actively experiencing right now. Not a problem they might have in the future, Not a problem that they don't even know is a problem. Right. You're speaking to people who are problem aware. Like they know they're, they know they're struggling. And in each piece of content, you're then driving people to your free webinar. Right. The reason why you want to do that is because, number one, it allows them to get on your email list and it allows them to go through, go through that free webinar and to really become a connection with you and to better understand what makes your process, your approach to solving, solving their problem, unique and different. Now, what I will say is that the content framework that you use in an Evergreen webinar is completely different than what you would do in a live webinar. And so a lot of people struggle back to kind of some of those mistakes that I forgot to answer. So I apologize for that. One of the mistakes that I see people make is that, you know, they think, oh, okay, well, I've live launched this course a bunch of times. So now I'm just going to take what worked well live and I'm going to automate it. Right. And that sounds great. Right.

And they even take the recording of the live session.

Yeah.

And it's like it's so obvious. This was something that was recorded months ago.

Yeah. And it sounds great in theory, but the reality is you may make, you know, one or two sales from that, but you're not going to get anywhere near consistent five or six figure months. And so many people follow that approach that they try it, it falls flat and they make that mean that Evergreen doesn't work for them or that their audience will only buy in a live launch. And it's like, no, it's not that they'll only buy in a live launch. It's that what you did just there worked great live, but it's totally different in Evergreen. Right? And so after, back to kind of the three pronged approach, you have the marketing where you're posting content on social media and educating people about their problems, and you are driving people to that free webinar. On the free webinar, you're forming a connection with people, you are starting to shift their perspectives, you are outlining your framework for however it is that you help them solve that problem. And they're able to enroll on that webinar without a sales call, without a bunch of, you know, lengthy DMs, they can enroll right then and there. Now, once people are inside of your program, one of the kind of misconceptions that I hear a lot is that people think that if they sell an evergreen program, they have to sacrifice student experience, right? And they think, oh, well, the people enroll in my Evergreen program, then I guess I can't support them live, right? I guess, like it's just gonna, I'm just gonna give them the content. And that is not the case. So what many of my students do is once someone enrolls in their course, they get immediate access to the content. Now in some cases, they may give immediate access to the entire course. In other cases, they may decide to drip it out, you know, once a week or whatever, whatever it is, they're getting access to the content that then they go through at their own pace. So they're going through at their own pace. And if they have questions, if they want feedback on something, or if they need help clarifying, clarifying something, then all they have to do is, you know, post in this, the student community, right? And then our, then you're able to go in, you know, whenever you have office hours, maybe you have office hours once a week or twice a week or once a month, whenever it is. And then you're just going through and you're, you're answering their questions and giving them feedback. And so they're able to get kind of that one on one connection with you, but it's in a group setting. And I find that, you know, today, especially with there's so much going on in the world, you can't expect everyone who enrolls to go through the course at the, at the same pace. And a lot of times I know from personal experience, when I purchase something, perhaps that is live launched. I feel like I'm falling behind. Like everyone else is like, oh, I'm on tap, like I'm on task. I'm doing this and then doing this and I'm like, okay, now these calls are not even helpful to me because they are so far ahead of where I'm from. Whereas if instead you're letting people go at their own pace and ask questions as they come up and you kind of create this environment where people are always learning, they're learning at a pace that feels good for them and they're able to move forward.

Oh my goodness. So good. There's so much that you just said there that I want to dive into a little bit. Firstly, I just love that you highlighted and clarified the difference between the launching model, but also the clarification around like Evergreen, not just being throwing your course up on your website and hoping someone buys it. So by the sounds of it, the way that you talked about this was like, there's a clear strategy, you've got a funnel in place, like there's actually an intention around your marketing. So you're guiding someone through the decision making process and giving them opportunities to buy when they're ready to buy. But you're structuring it with intention is what what I heard from you, which is so good. And I think sometimes people go and they just throw it up online or up on their website because they feel so super time poor and they've spent so much time actually creating the course that they're exhausted that they just go, oh, I can't be bothered selling it. And it's like there's so much money to be made and so much opportunity. If you've gone and created something that's so good, you have the obligation to sell it. Like you've got to market it to get it out there. So I love that you highlighted that with the Evergreen. And then like there are so many different ways to run a program or run a course. And I think that what I'm hearing from you there and so clarify this for me if this isn't what I what I heard. So like take the time to actually consider what does the customer need in order for them to get the outcome and the transformation and create a scenario rather than just like not a scenario, create an opportunity for that one on one contact or the support or feedback that they need rather than just going, oh, it's a course. They shouldn't get access to me.

Yeah, exactly. And what I will also say is that, and this is especially for People who maybe they're currently selling some kind of a high ticket service. A lot of times when they go to create a course, their course covers way too much. And I really want for people to spend, to think about when it comes to, you know, what to put in your course. Create an experience for someone that they can finish and feel Good about in four weeks, in eight weeks, not in six months or 12 months. And I get it, you want to help your clients as much as possible. So you're like, oh, and I can teach them this and that, but people will be more apprehensive to sign up for something that is 12 months as opposed to four weeks, even if it's the same price. So sometimes people think, oh, should I lower the price, the price of my program? Sometimes no, because you're selling a 12 month program and someone wants a result faster and it doesn't have to. If the result that your 12 month program is promising can only be achieved in 12 months, then it's time to kind of take a few steps back and well, what are your students accomplishing within their first four weeks of your 12 month program or your first eight weeks? That's what you need to really focus on.

You're so right. Because that pressure is real, like for the customer's perspective. Like the pressure to like stay up to date, to not feel like they're behind, to get it all done and everyone's lives are so busy as it is. But I just love that you highlighted that because it's definitely a mistake that I've made in the past where it's like, oh, I'm just going to teach everything I know in the course or I'm going to put everything in that they need. And really I've had to do the same thing where it's like peel back the layers and actually go, well. What's really required for them to get the transformation and to get the wins is what I'm hearing from you as well. Like let them actually get an outcome, get a win, because they're going to see so much value in working with you. So you can always create another course or do something else for them down the track if there's some further support that you want to offer.

Yeah. And yes. To helping them get wins and to actually enjoy the experience or enjoy the process. Right. Sometimes. And this has happened to me in the past, I become so focused on helping the client win and get the result that it's like I'm not keeping in mind that, you know what, everyone goes at their own pace. And just because this person isn't moving, like, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, that doesn't mean that they're not going to get to where they want to go. And so I say that because one of the person, one of the people that I was talking to yesterday, it was an interview, and she was saying, well, what do you. What do you think about this concept of, you know, course completion rate? And I have kind of a controversial take on that because I know a lot of people are very. One of the. One of the core things that they track is course completion rate, and they determine whether or not they are a, you know, good course creator based on how many people fully complete their course. And what I will say to that is that, you know, the world is big life. People are experiencing such a wide range of events in their life right now that, you know, who's to say that that person who joined your program isn't able to get what they need by, like, dipping in and out and kind of going through fast, like, going more deeply here, less deeply there? Who's to say that? And it's kind of like putting a value, a personal value judgment on them by saying, well, you're only going to get results if you do this, this, and this and this. Right. Like, I've had people who already have Evergreen funnels, and they're like, man, mine's not working. And they go through my program really quickly, and they'll just make, like, a few tweaks here and there for a giant difference. There's other people who join. They're like, okay, I have to go through each step. Like, I don't have anything built out yet, and that's totally fine. But it doesn't mean that one person is. Yeah, that one person is. Is more successful than the other as long as they're happy and making progress.

Yeah, I agree. And I feel like sometimes, sometimes when customers go through the whole course and if they do it fast, they actually aren't really truly learning it either.

Yeah, like, I've had that before in.

The past where they've just, like, smashed the content. And I'm like, but did you stop. Did you actually implement what you were learning or did you just listen to it and it was like, oh, I listened to it. I'm like, well, you're going to have to go back to specific modules and actually implement because you get the results of.

Yeah, yeah.

So interesting. But yeah, so, right. Like, there's so many different experiences. And I'm even thinking about one, a course that I Bought towards the end of last year and I actually haven't finished that. But I've gotten so much value out of it. I'm happy.

I honestly, I can say I've never ever completed. Maybe this is shameful. I don't know. I'm not going to be ashamed about it. I've never completed a course like top to bottom. Like, I literally, I go in, like, I'll kind of go at my own pace. I get what I need and I go, I'm like, this was great, awesome.

Yeah. So I'll find myself like go back like two months later. I'm like, oh, that's actually really. But then sometimes you actually wouldn't have been able to digest it back then or needed now rather than then.

Yes. I'm the type of person that needs to hear the same thing a few times before it really sinks in. So I'm all about going back two months later and redoing stuff.

Love it. I'd love to hear your take on how long you should give people access to with your courses.

So that's a great question. And I can, you know, I kind of learned this the hard way when I sold my very first course that kind of like you were saying, mine also was very sweeping and epic and covered every single social media platform ever, you know, and it was just like ridiculous. It was way too big. But I recommend giving lifetime access to the content, but limited time access to the community. And some people like to give limited time access to the content as well. And I think that's totally fine because that's. Then it's kind of like a, like a membership model and that's, that's fine too. But I don't believe in giving lifetime access to the community. And the reason why is because it's not really sustainable to you as a business owner because as the group grows and grows, it's more and more work to answer all the questions and things like that. And so, you know, that means you're going to have to add on extra team members and do this and that. And so what I like to do is I give lifetime access to the content and then I give eight weeks access to the community. And, and then if people want to stay in the community, they can extend their stay for a small monthly fee. Right. So they still have some skin in the game because they, they're paying that, you know, small monthly fee. But, but they're not, they're not staying in there like forever. So, you know, but, but again, I know I don't want To. I don't want to. If someone is like, well, I only want to give Lifetime, or I only want to give limited time access to my content. In no way am I saying that's a bad idea. Like, I think that's great if you want to do that. Whatever. Whatever works for you there. But I know for myself, I just prefer to give them lifetime access to the content and then just limit the. Limit the content or limit the access to the community. Because when I first started, I was like, oh, here's this big course and you have lifetime access to the community. And it just got so big, you know, it was just. You learn from your mistakes. So.

Yes, 100. And what does lifetime access mean to you? Because I've heard it talked about again, many different ways. Ways. What does lifetime access mean to you?

Well, it's so important to define that in the term, in your legal terms. Right. So, like, what, however you're choosing to define it, the way I define it is the lifetime of the program. So not the life, not your personal lifetime or my personal lifetime, but the lifetime of the program itself. Right. And so, like, we've retired programs in the past and what we do is, is like the Facebook group course, the social media course, the Instagram course, and we just then make it available for people to download if we stop selling it. And we send out like a bunch of emails saying, hey, we're like, you please make sure that you take, you know, take it and, you know, thank you so much for, you know, we're not going to be selling this. Here's some other ways that we can work together if you're interested. That way they still get to, like, walk away with the course itself. But yeah, that's, that's how. That's what I think of Lifetime as amazing.

What are some of the other mistakes? If you haven't mentioned any just yet, which was a big one that you feel like people really need to know.

Yeah, I think one of the big mistakes that, that people make, especially when it comes to Evergreen, is that they think that everything has to be perfect before they turn on their Evergreen funnel. They think they have to have a page perfect course, a perfect this, a big audience, all these different things. And the reality is, is that those are things that you need before you open cart on a launch. But this is not launching, because when you're launching, you're doing it once or twice a year. So you have those months of, like, engagement and list building on all of that. And then you're opening cart for a Short period of time. And it better go right, because you're not going to do it again for like six more months. Right now with Evergreen, it's different. And so I tell people all the time, the only way you're going to know how your funnel works is to get it out there. And then what you're doing is you're collecting data, right? And so you're collecting data and you're looking at that data and figuring out, well, which, which lever should I pull here? Which one is going to give me the best result? Do I need to change the title of my webinar? Do I need to change the subject line for this email? Like, what do I need to change this bonus? Like, what are the things that I need to change? And when you're tracking data. So like, for example, we teach our clients how to, you know, we give them a scorecard and we say, here's how to know how to track your data. And we also teach them how to read the data to determine what, what's wrong so you know what to fix. And then it becomes kind of like a paint, paint by numbers approach. Because it's like, if this number is too low, do this. If this number is too high, do that. And so you're, for example, let's say you have, you know, one of your emails has a low open rate, right? So then you would say, okay, well, this subject line is clearly not working. Instead of changing the whole email, because that has nothing to do with the open rate. Instead of that, I'm going to change the subject line. I'm going to run the web, run it for a week, week, and see if it improves. If it does, great, on to the next thing. If it doesn't, great, let's try a different subject line then. And so you just kind of, you know, you keep at it and you're identifying each week the thing that's going to have the biggest impact for you in terms of revenue, Right? So you're not going to pick something that, that is like, the easy fix or the thing that you're like, well, I'll just pick this out of the blue. You're not going to do that. You want to be really intentional. Another mistake that I see people make with their evergreen webinars is they think any. Anytime something goes wrong, they think it means they have to redo their webinar, which they rarely need to do, right? And so it's like, oh, I, you know, I didn't meet my sales goal this week. Does that mean I have to Redo my webinar? No. So we want to look at the data and see what specifically needs to change. Sometimes it's just the title of the webinar. Some, like I said, sometimes it's like the subject, whatever it is, you're going to be able to pinpoint that. But you don't want to waste time trying to reinvent the wheel. Like every two weeks. You're going to exhaust yourself 100%.

And what I'm also hearing from you there is like, what everyone often does is it's not a set of set and forget. Like, it's not like once the funnel then just let it go, it's coming back, revisiting it again and again. And I'm imagining that's also what's actually supported you to get over the million dollar mark with your courses.

Yes. And there's so many like automated ways to test things now. So it's not, it's not necessarily additional work for you. Right. Like when you're sending an email to your audience, you can set it up so it does a split test. So it sends out, you know, this percentage of your audience will get the email with this subject line, this percentage will get that one. And so then you're able to see. And then the email software itself will then choose the winner after it's been sent to a segment. They'll automatically choose the winner and send out everything to them. So the only thing you need to do is provide your email software with two titles. Right. And so I think that, you know, sometimes people have this idea that, oh, if I have to test things, that means it's like a lot of work. Not. No, it's not. Right. And so I think that one of the, one of the things when it comes to kind of like what you mentioned about not setting it and forget it is. And I see this happen a lot with people who have sold the same program for many years. Whether you. So launching is not rinse and repeat and Evergreen is not rinse and repeat. Like rinse and repeat doesn't exist. Right. And the, the reason why is because the market is always shifting. People's needs are always changing. So you may not need to change the content of your course, but you need to change the way that you articulate the value of your course and you need to call out like different pain points. Those are going to change over time. You may have started selling your course when maybe nobody else was teaching about that topic. So it was very easy for your program to stand out. Then, you know, cut to A year later and you're like, hello, A ton of people are teaching this topic right now. That's great because it shows that there's a high demand for solving the problem that you're solving. But you have to shift your marketing to. Instead of just trying to reach your target audience, you're trying to do that and position your approach to solving their problem as unique and different so that when someone comes to you, they're no longer like, wow, I've never heard of this before. Now they're in a place where they're like, listen, I've listened to all the podcasts, I've taken all the courses, I've done all the coaching, and I'm not giving up. I still want to invest time and money to solve my problem. What makes your approach different? Like, how is this going to be different? You have to be able to answer that inside of the content, your sales and marketing content, a hundred percent.

Oh, my goodness. So good, so good. Thank you so much for clarifying that because I feel like it's one of those things that people just go. It's just one of those things they sit and forget or they make that mistake. So really appreciate you sharing that. I'd love to know, mindset wise, what's something that's evolved over time with regards to your mindset when it comes to where you started with launching and then getting to autopilot and then actually growing it to multimillion dollars?

Yeah. So I tell my clients all the time, you know, as the CEO, you have two jobs. Number one, manage your emotions. Number two, measure your results. You can't measure your results unless you're managing your emotions. And if you're able to measure your results effectively, it actually helps you manage your emotions. So I'm the kind of person who is, I am very emotional, I am very intuitive. I have lots of big feelings, you know, every day. And building a business based on emotion and feeling was exhausting and it was not sustainable. And once I really understood, oh, instead of getting swept up in, you know, this, that or the other, or just. Just picking something out of the blue in terms of, like, how I'm going to move forward in my business, I can actually just look at these numbers and they will literally tell me where the hole is and what gap needs to be fixed. Right. And for me, it was such a freeing experience because I'm still able to have my big feelings and my big emotions, but I'm also able to make sure that I am making business decisions based on data. And it Creates, it's just so much more calm. Like, it's more. It increases consistency, it definitely increases profitability because anytime you're doing something new, profit takes a hit because you're spending time, money, resources on creating. So, yeah, I manage your emotions and measure your results, shift your mindset into really, really understanding that nobody else is accountable for managing your emotions. You are the only person who can do it. You can't control what anyone else does or doesn't do. You can't control your customers, you can't control your coach, you can't control your family. You can control your. The way that you choose to respond. Right. And so the, the faster, the sooner that you're able to really take that to heart and to take accountability for managing your emotions, the, the quicker you're going to be able to grow your business.

Absolutely. Absolutely. My goodness. So good. And I feel like there's so much, so much more I could dive into there. But like that managing emotions, but also like the data. You're so right. Like, looking at the data gives you the logic rather than letting your emotions get a. Get ahead of you or get out of control. Because often our brains just like come up like a little toddler. You can't actually control them. Sometimes they just run around and create chaos instead of actually going, well, hang on a minute, what is the facts here? What are the facts? What can I do about this? What can I control? So I love that you clarified that. It's a huge mindset shift. And so when it comes to. Let's just say. Can I give you a scenario? Let's just say we have a course creator that's got a course and they know it's really good. Like, they've spent time and energy putting together something that's really good, but they find that they're just not selling it in the. To the volume that they really want to be selling it. Maybe getting a few sales here and there, but it's not really at the volume. What are some of the areas that you think that they should focus on in order to increase that or to get some fast sales through the door?

So one of the things, one of the easiest things that you can do is have something in place within the funnel itself that is basically like a survey that's asking people why they didn't buy. Right. It's. It's because you need to, like, you don't have time to lose. You need to pinpoint the issue and you don't need to guess at why people aren't buying and what you're going to find more often than not is that people aren't buying because they don't think your course works. They're not buying because they think your course works, but it's not going to work for them because X, Y or Z, because they have something special, unique and different about them, which is actually incredibly common. And everyone else has the same issue, but they don't know that. Right. And so when you're able to pinpoint what that is, there's basically what you can start doing is speaking to that and start talking about that, whether it's in your marketing materials or your sales materials. Because there is no amount of emails that you can send that is going to overcome the objection of, well, I think your course works, but it's not going to work for me. Because X, Y or Z, there's no amount of emails that you can send. There's no kind of magical social media post or strategy that you can run. You have to figure out, what is that? What is that thing? And it's. If you have that survey in place, it's easy to figure out. You can even get on the phone with people who went through your funnel and didn't buy. I did that a ton, especially in the beginning. And I would ask people, you know, why did. Why do you think this course works? But it won't work for you. Just point blank ask, you know, ask them why. And a lot of times you'll be surprised by their answer because they'll say, oh, well, because what I really want to do is, you know, is, you know, X, Y or Z. And then you're like, well, my course literally covers that. And so that gives you the feedback that you need to know. Oh, like I am not communicating this clearly enough. And that's when those, like, simple little tweaks come in that make a huge difference in terms of the sales volume.

So good. It's that it's always so funny, isn't it, when you do that with your customers and you're like, I thought I had said that 15 times. I obviously haven't said it enough in a way that really landed for the customer. There's always so many unique little tweaks that we have to make in order for us to continue to scale. Is there anything else in particular that you focused on when it comes to scaling your courses?

I think for me, one of the things that I really had to come to terms with is to let go of this idea that my business had to look like someone else's. Right? And So a lot of times I would like compare what I was like, well, this person only works this much or this person is only selling this number of courses. This person is only selling at this price point. So I was kind of looking at who I perceived to be successful, right? And I was, and I was making decisions for my own business based on what I saw them doing on a very superficial level. So I wasn't understanding all the hidden stuff underneath that was actually powering their systems. Right. And so what I think people, what I really want for people to know is that at each stage of business you're gonna have to let go of things that stop serving you and then get into the next thing. And the faster you do that, faster your scale. And what happens for a lot of people and what slows so many people down is they become locked in to whatever strategy to. They locked into the way they do sales, the way they do marketing, the way they build their team, like all these different things. And because they're holding on to that, it's basically like climbing a mountaintop, trying to drag along all of this outdated equipment that you're not, not even using, right? And so I think that for me anyway, just kind of letting go of like, you know what, I don't, I don't care how much this person works. I don't care what their, you know, product suite looks like. I don't care what this person, that person is doing. I'm going to focus on what I want my life in business to look like and then create a plan in order to get, to get there so that I'm really coming up with my own definition of success. And it's not based on what someone else is doing. And you know, for me personally, I love running a lean team. I do not like having a really big team. Some people love that and they thrive on that. I do not want that. And so I've been able to construct my offers and everything so that I don't need a big, I don't need a sales team, I don't need a coaching team. I don't need like all these different things because we're selling with automation. The, you know, the, the office hours are through me and so it's, while I have a team, it's very, it's small and it's tight knit and they've been working with me for, for years and years. And so it's, it's just, for me it's a, it's a more positive experience. But again, if you're listening you might not want that, right? You might say, you know what? No, like, I actually do want, do want my business to, you know, look this way. But for me, success has always been about, you know, about time, freedom and figuring out and yes, of course, like, financial freedom and, you know, money and all of that, but really having the time to, like, do what I want to do to whether that's spending time with my family or taking some time to myself or, you know, pursuing new hobbies or whatever it is. I, I love that. Like, I want time to do that and, you know, at least at this season that I'm at in my life, like, I'm not, I'm not looking to build, you know, whatever, a billion, a billion dollar business right now. Maybe that'll change later on, maybe that'll be another goal. But like, I don't, I don't want that. I want to have, you know, financial freedom, time freedom and the ability to have joy.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. And you're so right. Letting go is one of the hardest things. And I think the social media really doesn't help with that either. Of like, when you're seeing what everyone else is doing, what everyone else is achieving, it's really hard to be like, oh, hang on a minute, how do I discern what's right for me? So I love that you shared that, having that discernment. And I think it's. Well, it really ties into what you're saying right at the beginning of the podcast. Like, also do that for your customers with your course, like, figure out, like, what do they need rather than going, oh, well, that person offers this, maybe I should offer this, or that person should put this in here instead of just going and creating what everyone else is going, everyone else has got just to actually come back to your customer and also with what works well for you, because like you said, if you don't like having a massive team, then you don't build one. And I think that's the best part about running a business in this day and age. The way that we can run a business online and use AI and all the things we don't have to go and do the things that we don't want to do in the traditional way of building a business business. We can do it in so many unique ways.

Yes.

Yeah. So good. And so I'd love to know, like, just the last couple of questions. So when it comes to this next phase of business with 2025, is there any other predictions that you have with regards to what's happening in the market or anything else that you see that will change. With regards to course selling in 2025.

I think you're going to see a lot fewer of those big six month, 12 month courses. And I think people are going to finally get into the, get on track with, with selling a course that is smaller, that is specific, that, you know, whether it's priced at, you know, $2,000, $500 thousand, whatever it is that you're selling, something that can be achieved within a four week time frame, within an eight week time frame, something specific like that helps you stand out and it helps the customer get on board because they're like, oh, I can, I can put in four weeks into this or I can, you know, do this for eight weeks. And it's not a big ask. Like, hey, this is the first time I'm working with you and we're going to be there together for 12 months.

Yeah, 12 months is a huge commitment for people. Massive. I don't even know if I've ever committed anything for 12 months. Yeah, it's a massive commitment. So I love that. So short courses focus on outcome, results and supporting your clients in a shorter timeframe. So I love that. And so last question. And you might have already covered a bit of this already in the podcast, but I always love to ask this at the end of the podcast, if there was one thing that someone should focus on with regards to taking their business to the next level, what would be something you suggest?

The number one thing that everyone needs to understand how to do is manage your emotions. And I know I spoke a little bit about that earlier. One of the tools that I, that I love, it's called the drama triangle. So anyone listening can you can Google that? There's lots of resources about it, but it's basically, it talks through the different roles that we play. Whenever we are entering conflict, sometimes we're in that role of victim, sometimes we're in the role of rescuers, sometimes we're in the role of, you know, persecutor. And it gives you, it, you're able to have very clear, tangible ways to shift yourself out of that. Right? To really go from victim to creator, from rescuer to coach, from persecutor to challenger. And you've got to learn how to do that because if you're not able to, if you're not able to work through, you know, $100 problems, $100 mistakes, thousand dollar problems, thousand dollar mistakes, you're never going to get to the next level. Right. And so hopefully one day you're going to be making million dollar mistakes and millionaires, you know, million dollar problems. And that's good because that's just setting you up for then the next thing after that.

Yes, My God, love that. I love that you reiterated that and brought it to that next stage. That's so good. Thank you so much for sharing everything and all of your wisdom today, Caitlin. It's been such a joy chatting with you. Where can people find you, connect with you and work with you?

So the best way to connect with me on social media is Instagram. Definitely. If you're listening now, send me a DM to say hi. Let me know you're listening to the podcast. Also, I a free master class that really unpacks my specific system and you can access that by going to caitlynbacher.com the Free Master class is on my website. It's called how to Generate Launch Sized Revenue Without Launching. So you're welcome to sign up for that as well.

Love it. So good. Thank you so much for sharing that. Such a joy chatting with you. Thank you again for being a podcast interviewee.

Thank you.