700 - Grow your Instagram Following with Reels Expert Anneke Odendaal - Pink Sparrow Social

I have a very special episode on the podcast this week. I have asked one of my beautiful speakers from Unstoppable Women to come and join us on the pod to dive a little bit deeper into her expertise. So welcome to the podcast. Annika, I'm so excited that you're here.

Hi. Thank you for having me. What an honor. And this event is going to be incredible.

I am beyond excited. I cannot wait to have you grace the stage and for you to meet everyone in the room. I have so many incredible people I know are going to be there, so I'm so excited that you're joining us. And so we're recording this just before the. Before the event, and so I know that everyone's going to listen to this afterwards, and I find that people are going to be like, oh, this is so good to go one step deeper. So it's going to be so good. So for anyone that's listening that maybe didn't attend the event and is listening to this episode, I'd love for you to start a little bit, little bit in the past. Tell me a little bit about your journey and where Pink Sparrow Social all started.

Let's go back to the origin story. You're in my living room floor. There is papers everywhere. I'm sitting there on the couch with my husband, and I'm thinking, reels just launched. This is going to be big. This is going to be like TikTok. See, I can see it happening. And I turn to her and I'm like. And I'm like, honey, I'm going to do this. And he turns to me, has that look in his eye like, you're crazy. And he says is, I love you. I'll support you. Go for it. I do not understand reels. I don't see how this is going to work. How could business owners possibly be using reels to get seen and make sales that go for a babe? So then I went all in on reels. I took everything from my. From my clients, from my uni degree, all of that stuff, and applied it to reels specifically. I went all in and I used a strategy. I made a plan. I prepped everything beforehand, and then I went all in and applied everything for one month just to see what would happen. And, babe, it just blew up. I went from less than 1000 followers to 10k in my first month of taking reels seriously. When they first launched, another month had passed 40k. And then by the third month, we had hit 100,000 followers in the community On Pink Sparrow Social. I Was so amazed and impressed. And something lit up inside me that was like, I could teach other people to do this. Instead of me managing their accounts, I can show them how to do it themselves. That way we can reach more people, we can empower each person. And with that, empowerment becomes stronger family units. Stronger family units that feel supported and safe and financially free becomes better communities. And better communities become a better world. So this is how we're impacting the world with reels. And that's sort of where it all started in my living room floor.

I love that. And I actually love, like having that vision like you were, you know, whether wherever that vision came from, you like, this is going to be big. And your husband's like, I don't know. But yet you were like, no, no, no, I can see it. And I think that that's like the epitome of a business owner that you have this vision and this idea, but no one else understands that. No one else can see the long term impact of what you want to create. And it's up to you to really hold that vision and go all in. So you mentioned a couple of times that, like, you went all in. Talk to us about what you mean by that.

What I mean by all in is you really have to back yourself when you have an idea and you can hear people around you saying things like, oh, that's not going to work, or that's a little bit crazy, or just do what's safe. What they're doing is they're putting a box around your light because they're trying to protect you and say, you know, I'm trying to look out for you. Don't go out and do that thing. They're just coming from a place of trying to protect you. But the magic happens when you follow that gut feeling. When you decide to do whatever it takes, no matter what. That's when the true empowerment, the true impact actually happens. When you follow through with that idea and that vision you have, despite what everyone is saying around you, that is the best thing you can do for your business is go all in. Because you are so worth it. The world deserves to hear what it is you have to offer. And every person that is your target audience needs what you have to say. So really we owe it to ourselves and we owe it to the people we can help to back ourselves and know that you are enough. Whatever is going on in your head. I remember when I first started, there are thoughts like, am I enough? Will this even work? People are doing what I'm doing. How can I make a difference? Once you believe in yourself and you take full action, keep going no matter what. Like, there will be struggles, there will be ups and downs, things will happen. But the top 1% of people aren't necessarily the smartest. They don't have everything. They don't have the best cameras, they don't have, you know, the best cars, the best houses. They're just the ones that kept going when it got hard. So when you go all in, is the best thing you can do for your business?

Yes, a hundred percent agree with you with everything that you just said. And I feel like, you know, if we look back at that, right when REALS first launched, they and everyone was jumping on the bandwagon. Not actually, I shouldn't say everyone, no. There was a very small percentage of people that actually jumped on the bandwagon because it's like anything in the collective that people go, oh, is this going to be a fad? Is this going to be something like, these people are over here dancing on these reels. That looks ridiculous. Why should we do that? That's not going to be for business. Like, everyone will always have a negative. There'll be elements of negative mindsets towards it. And it's the same thing with AI happening right now, right? Like, everyone's like, should we be diving in? It's good, it's bad. Like, everyone's got different opinions. But if we look at this as a beautiful opportunity for hindsight, like, Annika decided to go all in on something that she could see the potential for it to have something so impactful for herself, for her business and for the people that she wants to help. And then, like, you know what I mean? Like, if we look back now and go, okay, well, now you're over 330,000 followers. Like, that impact of having that many people will obviously be impacting your business in a really positive way, which we'll get to in a sec. But, like, you can't see the vision when you're, you know, your backs against the wall or challenges are happening or this new thing comes about. But you've got to go all in on something and believe in it and back yourself. Otherwise, you just never see the results. Don't you agree?

Oh, 100%. You'll never see the results if you second guess or if you stop halfway through.

Totally so true. And I would imagine you would see that a lot with some clients that come through that people are like, oh, do I do this? Do I do not like hesitation when it comes to reels like, tell us a little bit about, like, the challenges that you see that people are experiencing when it comes to using reels for their business.

Oh, yes. Oh. My mind went straight to one of my students, Millie. When she came to me first, she just felt like what she had to say wasn't important. What she had to say wasn't as flashy or as fancy as other people. And she was struggling with inner thoughts of, like, who am I to want to share this with the world? And am I enough? Like, what I have to say? Will that actually matter? And the really cool thing was the moment that she was like, okay, you know what? I'm just gonna go for it. I'm just gonna start making content. I'm gonna decide. Yes. That's literally when things shifted for her. Overnight. It's like her energy had changed. And the energy she was putting out wasn't of scarcity, it was of abundance. And then the same thing happened with her content and the way she approached everything. So that's a common thing I see with people is I'm not enough or I don't have what they have. And the people that can push through that, they're the ones that make a difference.

Yeah. So good. It's so true. Such a constant conversation around that and people comparing themselves and getting stuck in the headspace of like, oh, I am not as confident as that person, or I don't have enough to say or the right things to say. Like, that's natural. I think it's. I love that you brought that up because it's so such a natural experience and we're doing something different we've never done before. And I'd love for you to share a little bit more about, like, the impact that you're seeing with reels now. Like, before we even dive into the practical elements around reels, talk to us about what the impact you're seeing with reels and how that's impacting a lot of people's businesses when people do go all in with it.

Oh, yes. Love this question. So, for example, Millie, she was working at a regular 9 to 5 job while still trying to be a psychologist and get bookings coming in. And it was really hard. How do you get yourself out there? How do you get people to book in? How do you get them to click on your website? How do you actually make sales? And so her problem was a visibility problem, a lead generation problem. And where. Where our audience, where are they hanging out? Like, if they're not on Netflix, they're on social media. So as business owners, we need to be where our audience is. So that's why it's so important to take reels seriously. And that's what Millie did. She decided to actually show up on the platform where her audience is hanging out, and she definitely grabbed their attention. So for anyone who's thinking, what's the point of using reels? It's where your target audience is hanging out. That's where the attention is. Where the attention is is where you need to put your business. And there's different ways of going about this. Like, each business has a unique message that they need to get across. And so you need to understand, okay, what. What is my business? What sets me apart from other creators? And how do I actually put that into reels? So Millie could easily have gone, I'm just gonna post like all the other psychologists out there. And she would have just blended in the sea of psychologists instead of. We decided to pull out what makes her magnetic. The question is, what does make you magnetic? Well, actually, it's who you are to your core. If you're trying to be someone else, if you're trying to copy people, you're just going to blend in. But when you start to really lean into, okay, I'm a little bit quirky. Like, I speak funny. And then if you double down on that or, you know, like my. I have a favorite spoon. That's because it's the least sharpest one. And my husband, that's hilarious. And as I'm leaning into quirky things like that about me in my content, that's what makes you human and relatable, and it sets you apart from all the other creators. So Millie, she is this quirky farm girl with thousands of sheep and rides horses. But she's also a psychologist. So she's on her horse there, and she's filming her reels like, I'm a psychologist. I'm going to teach you psychology in 60 seconds while she's riding her horse.

Oh, my God, I love it.

It made her so magnetic, and people were absolutely loving it. They were sick of what everybody else was doing, and she decided to lean into her personality. Now, for people listening, you don't have to be a funny person. You don't have to be, you know, the loudest person in the room to be authentic. Some people, they're the quiet type and the shy creator. Leaning into that, like, I'm, you know how I sell houses as a real estate agent whilst being an introvert kind of thing. Like, really leaning into who you are, it doesn't mean you have to be loud. It just means you have to share more of who you are. And that's what really helped Millie stand out with her content on online.

And then once she stood out, what impact did that have on her business?

The impact that that had was insane. So she went from not having many bookings to completely booked out. We were on a call, and she's like, guys, I have to take a week off from my work because I am so, so busy. And then by the end of that week, she said to us, I'm gonna hand in my resignation. So she was able to quit her day job and lean into what it is that she loves. Not only that, she got a DM from someone who works at Sunrise. They said, hey, we want to interview on national tv. Do you want to have an interview? And she's, like, going wild. Like, her whole world has turned upside down. She's grown her following from less than 1,000 to over 100,000 in one month. That's a third of the time it took me. She's completely booked out. She quit her nine to five. She's asked to be on international tv. And then just now on a call today, she's like, oh, a publisher reached out to me. They want me to write a book. What is even happening? And now she's like, wow, I'm booked out with all these clients. I'm going to sell a course. So she's now going from just surviving to thrive, I think. And that's when the true freedom can happen, when you grow your following. And it's all been done organically, no paid ads, nothing. Just with what's. What's in your pocket, your phone.

As well. It is so insane. And also with the piece that I want to just touch on quickly is, like, not only by the sounds of it, it wasn't just about growing followers. You actually were growing B.O. in her audience. Because I think that's some of the biggest differences with what I love about what you share is, like, the conversion piece as well. Because I feel like one of the elements that a lot of social media marketers go down is going viral, which is great sometimes, but, like, if it's to the right audience, right. And so we can have the vanity metrics of, like, oh, I've got this many followers, but I absolutely know people that have a lot of followers but are finding it very hard to pay their bills. So tell us about the difference there of, like, what you do differently that helps people not only expand their following, but actually put money in the bank.

Yes. You nailed the pin. Nailed the nail on the head with the hammer. Pin on the head, on the pin cushion. I need to work on my analogies. Your. You've. You've nailed it. You need to have the right followers. There's no point in going viral or having a real go viral and then not being able to convert that into followers. And then even deeper than that, are they the right type of followers? So, for example, let's say you're a hairdresser and you're making content, but it's from your perspective, who's going to relate to that? Other hairdressers. Exactly. Other hairdressers, not customers. And so you're growing your following and you've got all these hairdressers following you, but there's no clients coming in. So what they need to do is create content from their client's perspective. What is. What can they relate to? Because whoever you can relate is who you attract to your page. So it's really important that anytime you're making content, it's through the lens of, is this for my ideal person? Will they find it educational? Will they be delighted? Will they learn something from this? Everything has to be aimed at them. And through that lens, that's how you're going to help bring in the right people. And then when your reel does go viral with the right people. Okay, how do they actually turn into followers? Well, you need to make sure that you've got your profile set up correctly. It needs to be really clear when someone lands on your page. A, who is it for? Okay. B, can you actually help me? So it needs to be crystal clear. And there's ways you can do this with how you structure your bio, with what you put in your highlights, and the types of pinned posts you have on your page. All of these things help to set up a really strong profile, kind of like the doorway or the gateway into your world. When someone lands on their page, they know, oh, this is for me, and they can help me. So you create the content that's for your ideal audience that brings them in, that they can relate to, that teaches them something, and they land on your page and they go, oh, you're for me. And then that is how you start to bring in the right followers, which is absolutely crucial because let's. There's influencers out there with millions of followers, but they're not making any sales because they have a lot of creepy guys following them instead of Pilates girlies.

So true. And I even, like, as you were Talking around the hairdresser example, I absolutely understand what you're saying because I've actually seen hairdressing accounts create reels around actually judging their customers. And it always made me feel gross. Where it was like they would judge them for canceling a last minute appointment or for coming in and wanting to completely change their hair from black to blonde and judging them because they're like, that's going to take more than just one appointment. Like your ideal client doesn't know that. And so that was very much directed towards hairdressers versus the other reels that I've seen where they're full consultation. And I get so obsessed with them. I like want to watch the before and after and this beautiful conversation they're having with their hairdresser. And it makes me imagine being in that scene being taken care of. Like, I just love that example because that really just highlights. Like there is a way to really consider like, who am I creating it for? Which sometimes would you agree? Like, sometimes it's hard to get in your ideal client's head to be like, okay, what's actually going to connect with them? What's going to relate to them? Because you use the word relatable a lot there. So you're relatable and teach. Is that the element there that you always kind of start with? Of like how to attract the right people? It's like, what, because social has gone beyond just educational content, would you say?

Absolutely, yes. So there are basically three types of reels anybody needs to be posting. And they all have different purposes and they all have different outcomes and things that they focus on. And it makes creating content so much easier. So I call this the ACC method. You have to create reels that bring in your audience. This is your reels that attract. And you have to create reels that connect with your audience. That's your reels that connect. And then you also need content and reels that convert them. That's your conversion reels. So reels that attract bring in new eyes to your page. And the focus for those is relatability, shareability and then the connection content. The focus of this is how do we make someone fall in love with you? That is your hot takes, your opinions, your education, your essence, your story, the way you see the world and how can you add value? That is your I'm in love with you content. And then when you have your conversion content, that's very, very different style in itself. It's completely different to reels that attract connect. Conversion is structured in a very Specific way. So anyone out there who's listening, you need to have content that brings in followers. You need to have content that connects with the ones that are already there. And you need to know how to make reels that actually turn those into sales. So that is the core essence of anyone's strategy.

Love that. And so, oh, my gosh, there's so many different angles. I can take this. So at one point, I want to talk to about the timing, because as we're talking, it can sometimes feel like for a business owner, like, holy shit, we've already got so much to do. Like, how. How much time are you allocating to do this? But then I also just want to touch on quickly before we talk about the time element.

Where do you.

What's your opinion around trending audios, trending reels? Do you jump on them? Do you find that you're like, okay, how do I make this really unique for my business? Are you kind of, like, not really focused on that? Because I'm just focused on those three core elements for my icc.

Amazing trends, they fall under attraction, content. The only reason I'd use a trend is, okay, what audience is using this trend? I want you to click on the reel and then look at all the people who are using that audio. What's the kind of vibe? Are they in alignment with me? Is it just people with dogs or is it, you know, people who are, you know, who like jewelry? Like, whatever you are, the trend needs to match. And if it doesn't match, do not do the trend. And on the topic of trends, that's not how you grow on Instagram. That's how you. Sure, it's how you can tap into audiences, but that's also how you blend in because everyone's doing them. That's not how you can actually stand out and help your audience find you. Trends are fun and it builds a community, but that's not how you stand out.

Oh, I love that differentiation. Because it can get kind of like, we see all the. With trends, we do want to jump on them. Because sometimes it's like, yes, I want to jump on that. But it's. Yeah, it's. I love how you place that because it just kind of let us off the hook a little bit to be like, okay, if it doesn't align, let's. Let's just not bother with it this time. Let's stay with what we've created. Because even like with the most recent Taylor Swift, with launching her new album, I saw so many people jump on that, like, so Many massive brands jump on using the orange colors and like, jumping on the life of a show girl showgirl. And I saw a couple of business owners do it and I was like, oh, my God, that's such a good idea. I need to do it for the life of a business owner. And obviously with the getting prep for the event, it just like, didn't even happen because there was no way I had time to create another carousel. But like, with. Yeah. So I'd like, love to. I'd love that you detail that out for us as it kind of let us off the hook a little bit. But also, like, let's jump on the ones that do work well, but let's just let some of them slide because otherwise if we just keep jumping on trend after trend after trend, it's really not. Then we're not spending time connecting or converting is what I'm hearing from you.

Exactly. Babe, you are so on point. Love it.

Okay, talk about the timing, because as soon as, like, as we're diving into all this, what are the myths that you hear from your business owners and clients that you work with when it comes to how much time people should be spending? Because I went to an event last year and a lady stood up and was like, how do you make reels faster? It took me 17 hours to create one and I was like, what? No, I would have given up after one little at 17. So talk us through, like, how much time? Like, I know that you have to get better at it, so I think there's an element there of like, at big at the beginning stages, getting used to the. The app and learning the tools that it has for us takes a bit of time. But then, like, how do you overcome that hesitation? For business owners.

Yes, it does take a long time to make certain reels. The best entry point is to pick a reel that you can make that's going to take the least amount of time for you. There are different style reels to experiment with. I personally make some that are short and then some take me really long and then some take me a ridiculous amount of time. And I definitely do not recommend doing them because you're wasting too much time making the content and not enough time actually posting the content and getting it out there. So you need to kind of find that point for you where it's like, okay, what content is a reasonable, reasonable amount of time for me to spend on and then still be able to get it out there. I don't want you doing extravagant transitions if it takes you too long. If Extravagant transitions is really easy for you to. Then that's great for you. If a talking reel is really hard for you, then you don't have to do as many of them. You can just dip your toe in and have a little play with them. If you love ranting and sitting in your car and that's just the best type of content for you, then go down that stream. If you prefer the I just like to show the behind the scenes kind of stuff, like lean into that. So it really comes down to each person. What are your strengths? Play into them. And the things that you're not so good at, you can trickle them in and work on them a little bit more. Is that. That's kind of what you were asking?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then like, how much time do you think a business owner should be spending? Like a week or a month working on rails? It's like a dumb question. It's kind of like, well, they work for your business so you should be doing them all the time.

Like, okay. So for me, I use a strategy called the batching method, which actually helps make sure that I don't spend a whole day making one reel. Like that is just ridiculous. Yeah, we don't have, we can't spend every day making the content. There's. That leaves us with no time to actually be working on the business. And then where do we fit in? Making dinner and replying to emails and things. So what I want you to do is break up everything into little batches. So I want you to have a session where you do your researching and your planning. Give yourself like, okay, I'm only going to do like 20 minutes on a Monday, researching. Then like on a Tuesday you're gonna go, okay, I'm gonna give myself half an hour to write out all the scripts for these reels. Plan. What am I going to say? What's going to be in the shot? What is the type of reel? What is its purpose? What was the call to action? And then that has its own little time block. And then let's say, so that's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, let's say Wednesday you go, I'm just going to smash out all my filming, get it all done on a Wednesday. And then Thursday I'm going to do my editing and schedule everything for the next week. So then you can repeat that process again. And then you can go, okay, Mondays I'm going to research, Tuesdays I'm going to script. And then Wednesdays I'm going to film and so forth. And then you repeat that so you're always a week ahead. That's one way of doing it. Another way is you can have longer batching sessions and you can have two weeks, three weeks of content posted ahead kind of thing. So batching into small little sections like that actually saves you so much time. It does take time to learn how to do a new way of making content. Once you've got the hang of it, it's going to be so much easier. So I wouldn't spend more than two hours on one reel. That is. That's ridiculous.

I agree. And I love that as well. I do batching and I find that the times that I do set aside that time to do the batching, I often do end up creating more because you get into the rhythm of it.

Right.

And then you end up creating more. And then I find that I've got a good couple of weeks, sometimes three weeks up my sleeve of plenty of background content. Or I actually like will plan like the talking to reels and all the other content, but then go plan a little, a whole bunch of B roll as well. And it's just so good to have that stuff in your phone when you do see a, see a, a trend or you see another idea of a really. Oh, actually I could really adjust that for my kind of niche. And so like it gives you extra content to plan. And once you've actually got a little bit of stuff in your calendar. Sorry in your camera, which is so good.

Yeah. And give you peace of mind because things happen, like, you know, stuff happens in your business and then you need more time on one thing and then you don't have time to film that week. I was like, oh, it's okay. I have my whole content that's already there.

So good. And I want to go back to one thing that you said earlier just in the question before, because what you said, like you said like if you're great at talking to camera, love that. Go down that rabbit hole. If you're not so great, you just don't do as many. So what I love about what you just said is that you didn't say don't do them because especially in service based businesses. And I imagine that you would probably agree with me here. If people are working with you, they need to connect with you. And if you're not doing talking to camera reels, how do we create that connection? Is that what you were saying? Because I think you were like, I'd love that you didn't say don't do them. Because I was like, I often Say to my clients, like, you can't. We can't let you off the hook anymore. We can't not be doing talking to camera reels, because how else are you going to develop this level of connection with your clients?

Yes, exactly. We're taking the pressure off being like, you have to go all in and all your reels have to be talking reels. It's like, no, let's just like, start that process and do a couple of them that you don't have to go all in on them. I want you to experiment with them because like you said, they are so important. Hearing your voice is one of the fastest ways someone can connect with you and build that trust. Like on social media, there's so many scams out there. People just want to know that if I invest with you, are you just going to take my money and run away, or can I actually trust you? And when we're building connection content, we need to have the talking content. Like, if you're not comfortable with a real firsthand practice on your stories, practice going live just with yourself. Film some talking content and then just talk for a bit and then see how you talk. Cut out the ums and ahs and then the next time, have more of a structure. Pick. Pick a topic or a question that your audience is asking you a lot about and then answer that in a real kind of thing. So the more we can show that we're human, the more people are going to trust us. So we definitely do need to have the talking stuff, but don't feel like, oh, my gosh, I have to do just that. It's like, there's a balance.

Yeah, love that. And especially now with AI, I think that level of skepticism and fear around am I talking to a real person? Is happening so much. So I love that you can't. Oh, well, we can fake that, but unfortunately, like, with AI, that's happening. But I think people can truly like that. I actually don't always cut out my arms and eyes because I'm like, it makes me human. Right. And it develops a level of. And that's different because I'm a business coach. Because, like, people need to see that you're real, but also need to feel like it's okay for them to make mistakes or make an um and ah.

Like, it's totally like those reels where people show just the off cuts. And it's like these are the bits that usually cut out and you just hear them going, love them. And they're like stumbling or something breaks like those Reels are great for showing the realness and that, you know, we don't have to be perfect. So it's good to have content like that.

I need to create one of those. I've got heaps of that. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the practicalities around this, because I feel like I want to support people who are listening that are, like, doing okay with reels, but how can we make them even better? And there's so many pieces that we can go down here. But let's say, like, obviously there's a learning curve in the beginning, and people are getting started with reels, and that's normal because they have to. Have to learn how to use the app. Right. But let's say that people are doing consistent reels. Let's say they're quite consistent with their reels. Then maybe a little bit boring or whatnot. Sounds really bad, but not like boring, but like, they're just doing what they can with. With their. With their reels, and they want to make them a little bit better in two ways. One, how do I make them more engaging? So how do I create the opportunity where people will actually respond? Because I think that's one of the gripes that I hear so much with people on Instagram is that. And I even saw you pop it on your story the other day of, like, take a question that people have sent and use it on your reply to that question as part of a reel. And I'm like, but what if you're not getting those questions? How do you that. Let's start there.

How do you get more engagement on your reels? Essentially?

Yes. Yeah.

Okay. So it starts with understanding human psychology. And the content you put out there really has to draw them in in the first few seconds. Like, you hear people always saying, oh, you need a hook. And then you see those videos. This is a hook. This is a hook. But I think people have gone way too far off the train of what actually is a hook. So it's not just about, like, grabbing your audience's attention in manipulative way. It's how can I speak to the right person in a very specific way that makes them feel like I'm actually talking to them? So, for example, let's say you're a nutritionist and your hook on your reel is something like how to lose 30 pounds this week kind of thing. That's. It's not very grabby or engaging in the first place. So we need to think, okay, how can we get them to watch our content? And then we can structure out how do we get more of the engagement. So what you need to do is need to change your hooks to be more specific. So it'll be like, this is how I. This is how I would lose 30 pounds in one week whilst. Whilst running. Yeah, not fasting. So it needs to be like a lot more specific. Like if I. I'm just doing this off the top of my head, I have full lists of this stuff so that you get where I'm. Where I'm going. It needs to be really specific. Like, you know, as I want to be able to eat pizza and still lose 30 pounds is how I would do it in 30 days kind of thing. Really specific. So once you have that specific audience's attention, then in your content, you need to have stuff that makes them think something that is different to what the norm is. This is how you're going to get more comments going in your comment section. Because people will be like, oh, this is what I thought it was like, why are you saying it to be this way? Or they'll be like, I am on this side and someone else is on that side. So then you get this sort of conversation going in the comments. That's one way of doing it. Having different opinions or different things. Someone will be like, I didn't know you could eat pizza and still lose weight kind of thing. So we have to draw them in with the hook. And then the actual beat, the meat of our reel, is what gets the comments. So one way is having your specific opinions, another way is comment baiting. And the way you do that is by having something unique in your reel that you know is going to get a lot of comments. So let's say you're a Disney travel agent. And then on the back wall, there's like a picture of like Mickey Mouse or another character or someone doing something. Then you're gonna get people going, hey, what? What's Mickey Mouse doing over there? So that's gonna start the comment section. Or maybe when you're holding your microphone, it's clipped onto a fork like you're. You wanna put stuff in your reels that people can hook into and comment on. So it's the same thing when you're having a conversation with someone you meet for the first time. Instead of just saying like, oh, like, what do you do for work? You can comment bait them and say things like, you know, last year we went to Bali. And then, you know, my kids are like this old and you share lots of different things and then you give Them the opportunity to hook into what they can relate to you. Give them the opportunity to connect with you. People want to connect with you, but you need to make it really easy for them. Like, they don't know how to. So the more you can create engagement bait, the better. So love that. Yeah. When you're making content, just think, how can I make this as easy as possible for someone to engage with?

Yeah, it's actually like one of the hardest things to think about. But, like, I say this a lot on TikTok. I see people do this all the time on TikTok in so many unique ways that now people, I think, are commenting on it of like, oh, this is just rage bait. Like, this is actually getting people to get angry at this, at this point, video in order to create comments. But I love that. It's really like the microphone.

Yeah, we definitely don't want people to get angry in the comments. No, in a nice way. Yeah.

Love it. And so then if someone's been creating reels and they've been maybe using a lot of B roll, but they haven't really been stepping things up when it comes to their reels and they want to start to stand out a little bit more, what would you. What advice would you give them to try and stand out a little bit more?

Yeah, great question. This is very different for each niche. So what I would tell a Pilates coach is very different to what I would tell someone who's growing pills, for example. So a Pilates coach can't just put out heaps of B roll of them doing Pilates. That's not going to help. You need to think, okay, why? Why would someone follow me? And what would they get from me? It's always through the lens of your audience. What can they get from you? People are selfish consumers. That's just the way Instagram is. Like, they're not going to follow a business just to, you know, hear about all your sales or your giveaways. You need to give them a reason to follow. Like, why would someone follow you? So for the Pilates instructor, their content would be more based around the workouts and the things or a day in the life of a Pilates instructor and, like, things like that. Whereas a someone who grows and sells pearls, it would be, okay, how are you making these pearls? Where do you source them? How are you growing them? What happens when someone visits your. Your island and they stay at your accommodation? Like, take us through that journey. Create content of kind of like A Day in the Life. But it's more from the angle of your audience, like, what is it like to step into your world kind of content? So it's, it's very different for each account. One thing you can do if you're really struggling is just go onto Instagram in your search bar, type out a keyword or a phrase or one of your content pillars and check out other accounts. Select the Reels tab and then go through okay, what's performing really well? Then you will have unlocked the key to what format to use. I'm not saying to go ahead and copy these people. What I'm saying is look at what works as a format and then put your own spin on that, put your own voice into that. That's a really, really good stepping stone for someone who's new and is thinking, gosh, what do I even post? Like, where do I even begin? Like, my content's not landing. Look at what's working really well and then put your own spin on it. Infuse your personality into it. That's going to work really well. And that's why I said it's very different depending on what niche you're in and what your business is.

Yeah, love that. Love that you identified that. Because I feel like some people, that's, I think, where people get the most confused. It's like, how do I make this work for my business? And that's obviously why we would someone like you. So tell us a little bit about if we were to take it to the next step and monetize our content. So obviously, like you use a lot of automations and things like that in order to get people into your funnel. So talk us to us a little bit that about that when people are starting to go, okay, so I'm getting better at reels, but how do I make people take the next step?

Amazing. So what we're talking about now is reels that convert. So reels that attract, like we mentioned at the start, bring in people. Reels that connect, make them fall in love with you, and they offer an immense amount of value in different ways. Reels that convert, it's very specific. So with the real that converts, you're not offering the solution in the real, you're pointing them to where the solution is. That is the key. That is the distinction. So reels that connect and offer value, you're giving away all these solutions and you're telling them the answers and you're building and you're nurturing and making them fall in love with you. But then your reels that are converting, you're Speaking to someone's desires, you're speaking to the things that they need, they want their big vision, maybe problems, but I'd lean more into their desires. And then you're saying, hey, if you want that outcome, go here if you need this. If you're struggling with growing a flower pot garden and growing veggies, you don't know when to plant, you don't know what time to do what, you don't know which plants to plant together. If you want the answer, comment a keyword and I'll send you to where the answer is. So that's where automation comes in. You would have seen reels out there where they say, comment this keyword and I'll send you xyz. That's what I'm talking about when I say that. And more and more people are learning about automations. They are best utilized in conversion reels. So you're highlighting what is the desire they want and then you're pointing them, okay, go this way, go into my funnel, go down my email list, grab my freebie kind of thing, and you're nurturing them more down there. Or it could go straight to a sales page or it could go to an intake form kind of thing. So that is how you would structure your conversion content. And then on top of that, not just the reels, but your warmest audience is watching your stories. So you need to have story flows and story sequences that are actually more about mindset shifts related to investing, on taking the next step. It's less about what the offer is, it's more about, okay, what internal mindset shift do I need to have to then make the sale? That's what the stories do. They're all about the mindset shift your audience needs to make. And yes, you can sprinkle in what your offer is and all those different things. Because I don't know if you've looked into this yet, but there are four unique buyer types. Have you explored the realm of biotypes? Should we delve into buy types a little bit?

Yeah, we can talk about them for sure.

Okay, awesome. So when you're making content, there's different types of buyers and they fall into four different buckets. You have your expressive buyers, you have your amable buyers, you have your analytical buyers, and then you have your driver buyers. Each of these different types buy differently. So for example, an analytical buyer, they just want the details, they want the data, just tell me what it is, when it is, and they just want all the data and then they'll analyze everything they'll kind of ghost you and come back, but then they'll purchase.

Yeah.

Kind of thing. Whereas your expressive buyers, they. They want to know more about you and, like, the more you share your story and who you are as a person, they fall in love with you. And you can basically, you know, hold them in a line, like a kindergarten line, and skip them to the checkout. Because once they love you, they love you, and they're all in. It doesn't really matter so much the details of your offer. It's like, do I love you as a person? And then, you know, you have your driver buyers who love the big vision kind of stuff, and they. They want to see. See you and your most powerful. And they love when you share your accomplishments and what you've been able to achieve and how you've helped others because that inspires them to, like, that bigger picture kind of thing.

So y.

They're all. They're all very different. So when you're posting on your stories, a good thing to do is alternate for the different buyer types on your story and then do. Do it through the mindset angle as well in sales psychology.

So, yeah, you missed the amiable. Is it amiable? More like they want to know how it's going to work.

How it's going to work is the analyticals, like, what's the thing? What are all the details and the amable. They're. They're more like the quieter kind of buyers. The more the gentle ones. They don't. They don't want to stand out and be as loud as the expressive ones. But they're. They're just. They're a more gentle kind of buyer. They, yeah. Don't really. They don't really do well with the big in your face kind of stuff. So, yeah, them. It's more about like, you know, here are the options and, you know, you can sit with it kind of thing.

Yeah, they need a little bit more time to think about it and. Yes. Yeah. See how they could possibly put it into practice for themselves and then take the next step. They might ask a few more questions.

They don't want to be pressured at all.

Yeah. Love that. Amazing. So good. Oh, my gosh. And then is there anything else that you would say to someone who is wanting to take their. Take their reels to the next level?

Yes. I would want to share with you the pottery class example. So there was a study done with a pottery class, and they were split into two groups. You have group A and group B. Group A was tasked with creating one Perfect pot. Like, they had to spend all their time in class just making this one pot as perfect as possible. And then group B, their task was just to make as many pots as possible. Do as many pots as you can throughout the semester, and then by the end they would grade. Okay, who had the best pots? And believe it or not, the group B who was tasked to create as many pots as possible, they had more perfect pots. So my big message for you is I want you to be less concerned about learning and learning and leaving little time to doing the things. I want you to flip that. I want you to spend more time doing the thing and less time learning about it. That's how you're going to learn the fastest. That's how you're going to see the best results. I know that as business owners, we want to be professional and we want to put the best content out there and. But what happens is we get perfect post paralysis and we don't even end up posting. And then we second guess ourselves and then we're not posting content and then, oh, a week's gone by, it's like, oh, I may as well not post anything for another week. And yeah, that's how we can, we can get lost. So the best thing you can do is to actually post the reel. Do the thing that's the fastest way you're going to learn what's working and what's not working. That would be my number one advice for someone who's really struggling is post the reels, experiment with different ones, get them out there, collect the data and then learn from that.

Love it. I totally agree with you. I feel like that's one of my strong suits, is like, I don't even have the perfectionism issue. I just literally like, yeah, that's done. That's good enough. Get it out there. And I feel like it's. I've gotten better because I've just experimented. Just like, keep experimenting and just keep trying new ones and just put them out there. And I feel like as well, again with the perfectionism piece, I'm like, I would rather that content be out there and working for me rather than it sitting in my drafts and not doing anything.

Exactly. And then because you're someone who's already posting, your next step would be like, okay, I'm looking at my reels. What's working better than others? And then making sure that you keep refining that process as well. Because it's one thing to post heaps of content and then for your listeners, they need to actually look at the data, like what's actually working and then double down on what's working. So for example, my student Millie, we had so many different types of reels in her content plan and then when she posted one where it was all my years of psychology in 60 seconds, it completely blew up. And so what we did is we doubled down on that. Almost all of her reels she's posted, she's posted 28 reels. And I'd say a good 3/4 of them are all around the 60 second style, just phrased differently. So all my years of psychology in 60 seconds or it's, you know, listen to this one minute reel and it will save you a university degree in psychology. They're all around that angle and the more she does it, the more she grows. So she's done really well to double down on what's working.

Love it. So good. It's one of those things that I feel like I leave to the last minute is checking that data, like, and then going back. But even I've actually had this really cool insight in the last, just this last six to eight weeks as I've been preparing for the event. There's certain types of reels that I've been posting around, like me creating this event and the challenges that I've had come along. And also how I'm stepping up in the process of actually, you know, creating something that I really want. Like this big dream that I've had on my heart for such a long time to create an event like this. I feel like it's what you just shared with me. What highlighted for me was that people really want to see me taking the scary action and then sharing the fear in the process of taking the action. And I thought it was resonating a lot.

Absolutely. What you're pulling out there is storytelling content. It is huge. You know, when Instagram first started, you could just do lip syncs and pointing. But what's working now is storytelling. Like getting your message through in a way that takes a viewer on a journey and they learn, okay, where were you? What happened? What struggle came up? Tell us us what your thought process was and how you worked through that. Take us into your world and then show how you got to the end result kind of thing. So the more you can do storytelling in your content, that's what's really working out. And I see a big push for that style content. And my prediction is 2026, you will see a lot more storytelling content.

And I must say though, if anyone's listening, I found that really hard. Like, I'll just say that straight out because storytelling is not necessarily one of my strong suits. Like, when I, I first started on Instagram, everyone was doing like really long captions like it was before reels. And it was like literally like a novel in a caption. And I would look at that and be like, how, how are you doing that? Like, the way that my brain works is like, give me, I'll give you three sentences. And it's straight into the point, right? I'm the driver in the buyer people, right? So like when I, I had to really develop my ability to actually describe and to sit in the experience of it in order for me to be able to get better at storytelling. And it's still something that I've been working on this year of like, how to acknowledge like the different steps and where I'm at and what I'm thinking about. And because I've worked on my mindset so much, that part happens so quickly that I forget that that's actually the gold. And so that if anyone's listening and find they find storytelling really hard, please know, like, you're not alone. And also you will get better at it. You just got to do more of it. Just like the pottery analogy that Annika shared. Like, you've absolutely just got to keep going and to keep trying again and again. Because I find that it was, it was really challenging, but now I find it so much easier. I, and I feel like the podcast, because I've done over 600 episodes now, it's like I'm getting better at because I'm forcing myself to do it again and again and again. So I love that you shared that analogy.

Yes. Doing it again and again and then also having a framework for storytelling. So for example, the hero's journey is a very common framework that all big movies use where they take the hero on this journey. And then there's trials and tribulations and then you know, there's this conflict and the refusal for the call and then you know, how it all wraps up and they bring back their teaching. So what you can do is you can, you can even use ChatGPT and ask it to take the hero's journey storytelling method and what it knows about the narrator trend that was going around. And then tell it to ask you questions to help it write a narrator style reel for your content. And then tell it, it needs to make sure each sentence starts with a story starter word, like so. And, but therefore, meanwhile, and then things like that, it can help you write your content for you, and then you can infuse in those key elements of your story that matter. So there are frameworks we can use to make us better storytellers. And the more we learn about storytelling and we analyze content that does really well. So someone listening. After this podcast, I want you to jump on Instagram search the narrator trend. Look at those reels that come up and then analyze how did they structure their reel and what, what do you notice that's repeating in all of them? Those are great storytelling examples. It's a perfect starting point for you. And then put all that data into ChatGPT and work with it to help you write a storytelling script. Then work off that script. That's a very, very good place to begin. And then like what you're saying, keep doing it and then keep practicing and then keep putting it out there, like with the pots.

Love it, love it so much. Thank you so much for sharing all your incredible wisdom here with me today. It's such a, such a joy chatting with you. And I'm gonna finish up with one little question. Firstly, I'd love for you to share where people can check you out, connect with you, work with you. And I'd love for you to ask, you know, if there's any one question you would love being asked about reels. What is it?

Ask about reels. I would love to be asked how many pink suits I have for my reels.

Yeah, yeah. How many pink suits do you have for your reels?

I have three. Really?

Oh, my God, I love it.

Oh, look at that. Sales coming through while we're on this call. That's the power of automation and sales. Okay, so three pink suits. I have the original little pink jacket I wore when I first started. It's really crummy now, falling apart and sweat stains. Then I have this suit, which is the fitted suit. If anyone's watching the video version of this podcast, it's a clean cut, full body pink suit. And then this one's my favorite. It is actually a tracksuit that looks like a suit.

Oh, my God.

Hilarious.

That's so good. Amazing. Do you want to share with us where people can find you and connect with you?

Absolutely. On Instagram, just look up Pink Sparrow Social. Let's hang out there and connect. If we vibe and I'm your cup of tea, let's drink some tea. If not, there's plenty of other tea shops out there.

Amazing. Thank you so much for being a part of the podcast today.

You're so welcome and thank you for having me.