726 How Dirty Copy Creates Viral Carousels on Repeat with Marisa Twentyman from Dirty Copy

I don't even know how long ago we met, but I know the exact moment that we met.

Oh, you remember? I think I remember too.

Yes. We both attended a retreat that I spoke at with Jess Rufus in just outside of Sydney. And as soon as we met, I was like, oh, we're going to be friends. She's a cool chick and she's so fun. And I just knew that, like, we were going to stay connected because I can see that you were on the precipice of something really big. So I'm so excited to have you on the podcast because so much has transpired since that moment. Like, how long ago was that?

Two years? I don't know. Two years? Yeah. And I still remember saying, what? What do you do with your stuff? And you're like, my stuff? I was like, mental, Note to self, be more eloquent when you're a copywriter.

So, Marissa, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today, and I'd love for you to share a little bit of background about who you are and what you do, and then we'll talk a little bit about what we transpired in that retreat because I feel like it's a beautiful kind of set up for what we're going to talk about today.

It really is. Okay, so I am Marisa from Dirty Copy, and I'm a creative copywriter for brands that don't do boring. But really a lot of my business has now morphed or expanded into online education. I love serving and helping business owners stand out with messaging that not only fits their brand and copywriting that fits them, but actually is interesting because when I got into copywriting, I a little over three and a half years ago, I just remember looking around and thinking where all the fun words like, why is everyone so boring? There's got to be space for it. And I feel like we've come a long way in that time. But even with AI, business owners are really, like crying out for messaging that really helps them stand out from the crowd. So I absolutely love serving and helping business owners. And yeah, I've gone into a bunch of different offerings. Websites one of my main passions. So I offer a website copywriting course, a DIY half mega template half course. And then I have just created a viral carousels mini course resource which I know we're going to talk about. And I also have a podcast as well called Dirty Chats, which isn't as filthy as it sounds. It's marketing insights meets celebrity gossip, and using celebrity gossip and viral moments as the vehicle to teach about marketing. Because I'm all about making things more interesting.

Right. And that's what I absolutely love about you, is that it makes it interesting. And I think in the year of the way that AI has absolutely taken us by storm this year, like you just said, like, it is absolutely imperative that we're standing out from the crowd, doing something different and using something that is interesting. And that's what I love about everything that you create is that it's so, like, the tonality and just the words that you choose and the way that you really infuse personality into everything that you do, I just freaking love. And anything that I read now, it's like, we're so. Everything's chatgpt. Like, everything. And I still use it in my business. Like, don't get me wrong, I still use it.

You should. You should be.

Yeah. And it's. But it's like, how do we. It's honestly, like, I'm starting to hate it because I'm having moments where I'm like, it pumps this out. And I'm like, you've already said this seven times. Like, what the hell? Create something different. Have a different sentence structure. Like, why do you have to be so like. Like. And. And the truth is, like, I'm like, fucking stop it. Like, I don't know how. I'm obviously not using it effectively enough. But what I'm so drawn to, and I'm noticing a lot of business owners are being more drawn to now is this level of. New level of authenticity, but how we make it feel fun, how we make it entertaining, how we bring more personality into it. And I just love that you're doing that with everything that you do. And so I want to take it back just a little bit. So I remember this one moment at the retreat, and we were talking about goals, and we're talking about expansive goals, and you had some really cool goals for your new, brand new program at the time, which was the. Your website program, right?

Yeah. So it was makeover your website's personality. Yeah. Yeah.

And I remember challenging you on how many, like, what your goals were, and.

You were like, oh, no, I can't make it. I remember that. I remember that moment. Yeah.

And so thinking back to that moment and what has transpired since then, what would you say has shifted in your belief about your business?

Oh, honestly, it's just. I know you're really not into my. Into your mindset stuff. You are a mindset guru and a coach. And more and more, I'm Realizing that it truly is success in business is your mindset. It's how far can you push the limitations that you have for yourself. It's just a constant discipline of pushing out where you think you can go and where you think you can succeed. Why, for example, can't in our podcast, we be the next Alex Cooper? Well, we're not going to be unless we think that we can be and unless we take steps towards it. For me, with that particular course, I have launched it multiple times successfully. And now that is the course that I'm like, okay, this. I can see so much potential for this, and this is going to be my signature course. Whereas before I was like, I'm just trying it out, I'm giving it a crack. And next year, I have put some serious money into a launch specialist. I am actually rejigging that to create an AI twin of myself so that people can get, quote, unquote, me to write their website. So I'm trans, I'm transforming it, and I am putting a really big number on that launch, believing it, working towards it, investing towards it. Because I. Ever since that moment in the retreat, and even probably a little bit before that, it has just been like one goal after the other that I have met and I have had a goal in mind. Now, numbers come and go, but in terms of I'm gonna launch this successfully, I'm going to launch a podcast and have it number one. It's whatever I put my mind to. It's crazy. I'm like, this is creative. Our mindset's creative, Our goals are creative, and if we move towards them fearlessly and with intention, we actually can achieve them. It's been so, so exciting. So for next year, I have an even bigger goal for that particular course. And up until now, it really has been like, testing it, figuring it out, seeing what happens, seeing where the market's at, and testing it out with my students with incredible success. But as you know, with being an entrepreneur, it's annoying, but, like, the best challenge is that it's like constant change. It's like, okay, now, how do I make this suitable for, like, the AI climate that we're in now?

Well, I'd love to hear you speak on that, actually. Like, do you have conversations with other copywriters, like, how is the copywriting industry feeling about AI? Because I think that you've taken a completely different stance on, like, you're like, let's work with it, let's go with it, let's roll with it. Let's actually, like, understand where our opportunity is within this situation. Whereas a lot of other copywriters are not feeling that like they're like they're hiding, they're freaking out, they're seeing their numbers dwindle, they're finding it really hard to sell. Like, what's your take on how AI and copywriting can work together?

My take is that they have to work together for the future. I'm looking ahead to the future and I'm just seeing there is no way that copywriting as we know it today is really viable. And for some people it will be. But for your average amazing copywriter, you have to learn to work with AI because it's just about what the user's doing before they come to you. You have to know they've already tried it on ChatGPT. They're already working with ChatGPT. They are weighing up, am I going to spend $3,000 with you on a website or am I going to save it and get a slightly less, less website website, but invest that 3,000 into something else Now? I still believe in the power of copywriters. The nuance that's needed, the research. Just with marketing, it's also just like reading the room and the vibe check, which AI can't do because it's a pattern reader. It can only like read the patterns of what information it's been fed. But I've just come from this morning so I have a course for copywriters and I've just been teaching them a workshop on how to AI proof your copywriting business. So I just, it was full of ideas of how you can reel customers in. So what I'm saying the market's wanting now is high touch and a quick win and relatively low cost. And by relatively low cost I'm talking, you know, 400 to 900 and they get, say it's like let's do your lead magnet in three hours and co create with AI or let's have a pre sales page messaging strategy session where I come out and pull out your juiciest parts of your messaging and then you go off and write it with, with AI your sales page. And maybe you pay for another hour for me or an hour or two for me to come and rejuice it or you pay for me to do it. So my advice to copywriters is those entry level, those entry level offers need to be thought about really strategically how you can incorporate with AI so you can have a fast win, relatively low ticket. Because unless they have seen that you've proven that you're better than AI they're not going to want to spend the cash. So you've got to get everyone into your ecosystem, your offer ecosystem at the bottom. So that's what I've just come off teaching. Yeah.

Oh, thank you so much for sharing that. Because I feel like a lot of copywriters will listen to this and be like, what are you doing differently that we're not doing right? And I think that that can, people can see the outside of what you created and then it's like they compare themselves or they get stuck in that space of like, I don't know what, what to do now. And I think the other thing that I just want to pull out of what you just said is you've got to get better at marketing. So you need to know marketing in order for it to work. Especially if you're working with business owners. Right. And majority of copywriters. That's what you're here for. Right. So whether you're product or whether you're service based, like either way you're gonna have to understand marketing better than your ideal client will to make sure that it does work. Because otherwise it's just noise. It's just words.

Totally. And what I see, it breaks my heart actually because so many copywriters are good at what they do, but they can't sell themselves. So I teach that your first job as a copywriter is sales for yourself. If you can't sell yourself, why do you think your customer is going to think that you can sell them? That is your absolute first job. And I will add on because you said you talked about how a lot of copywriters are scared. I had that as well. I had to go through a couple of weeks where I realized, oh my gosh, I think the future's like, we're all doomed. And then I started to get excited and then I actually realized, you know what? The future lies with creative people. With creatives. Because we're the ones that will be able to do something differently. And it's actually really, really exciting. And if we can work together with AI and we're the creative ones, then I think we win. That's how I feel.

I love that. And it makes it more human as well. Like we're the, you're the ones that are actually going to make things more human.

Right.

Otherwise everything's all robots.

Totally. And there is a little bit of AI fatigue. I don't think AI is not going to going away. It's going to only accept expand. But we're in a Bit of a lull now where we still feel that there's, you know, if we go to chat GPT, we're like, it's still pretty time intensive and, you know, a lot of people don't know how to optimize it or create their own chat bots, which is a whole nother discussion.

But yeah, and I think, like, I always look to, like, the past to try and look at, like, ways that humanity has moved through biggest challenges. And like, it's like the Internet again. Like, everyone was like, it's a fad. Like, it's. I don't know if this is going to really take off. And then it was like, oh, my God, the Internet is taking over the world. What are we going to do? The world is like, it literally, like crazy. And so it's like, we've just got to evolve with it and it's the same thing. It's just, it's just business. Like, that's what actually happens every couple of years, no matter what.

Oh my gosh, everything changes.

Everything changes. And I think your head in the sand, it's not going to serve you. Whereas if you're like, okay, what is the opportunity here and how can we move through it and how do I need to upskill myself or get better at what it is that I'm doing? So then I'm still relevant, moving forward.

Totally. And I still remember because we're, you know, both. Both old enough to remember that. I remember thinking with online shopping, I was like, I'm never going to trust a website enough to shop online. And now I cannot be asked going into a store to try things on. I will not do it.

Love it. So good. So take us back to when you had the idea around the viral carousels. I want to, I want you to talk a little bit about, like, what spurred the idea, what happened that caused you to be like, this is a thing I actually need to help people understand how to create this themselves.

Well, I knew that I was good at writing carousels, like, very early on. I remember in Dirty when I just changed over from. So I was initially the Rhodes edit super boring. That was my business, like every other copywriter. Not that you guys are boring, but I wanted to stand out. So then I want it. Then I went to Dirty Copy and I started really thinking about, you know, what people want from me in terms of a carousel. And I remember I went back and looked at some of my saves and when I only had, you know, 1500 followers, I would have 60 saves on a post or sometimes 100. I remember one post, I got something like 400 followers from them. So before I ever went viral, I just knew that every time I'd write a carousel, I would get at least 10 followers, which is pretty good at the moment for, you know, it's. It's like the Hunger Games out there on social media.

Yeah.

It's like I've been kill or be killed. And so I. Earlier this year, I was just doing my normal content strategy, which is just creating maybe one or two carousels a week, maybe a reel a week. Carousels would always get a lot of saves because I'm hyper fixated on creating valuable content for my. For business owners. And then I was inspired to create content every day for 30 days, because even though I'd been creating content for three years, there's still a lot of. There was still a lot of emotions around creating content. So if you create something, you're scared about how it does. I throw my phone across the other side of the room. Like, I just texted a boy because, like, I didn't want to see the reaction or. So I was like, okay, let's post every single day for 30 days. And just. I heard it gets easier, you know, because you care less, and then you just try different things. And I think it was on day 10 of posting every day. So this is a mixture of carousels and reels. And I had food poisoning. I think I'd vomited like 10 times that day. And my husband, who's, like, pretty anal about, like, sticking to your word, I guess that's a good thing. But he was like, you committed to 30 days. You're still posting. I was like, on the bed, barely able to lift my head. I was like, okay, cool. I started, like, doing this carousel, and halfway through the carousel, I was like, I can't finish this. This was like, types of other carousel was. If you go and have a look at my Instagram types of content, I'm bored with right now. And then halfway through, I was like, I cannot be asked. I'm too sick. I'm going to put the rest in the caption. So I did that. I posted, performed pretty well. But what I notice about carousels is typically they don't go mental straight away. They take time. They've got to be found on the Explore page. And as the people more and more people click on it on the Explore page, It takes about 10 to 14 days to go VI. Now, I'd had other things go kind of semi viral, like 10,000, 11,000. I thought that Was amazing. But this one on day 29 of my 30 day challenge got to something like 98,000 views. And it's so annoying with carousels because no one can see, it's like the one thing I'm good at. No one can see how good I am at them. So I just have to talk myself up. But by the end of that 30 days, it's like the algorithm learnt me as well. And I'm a big believer in you've got to train the algorithm to notice you. So by the end of that 30 days, I think I'd had a couple at 20,000 views, one at 98,000 views, another at 40,000 views. And I just kept refining my strategy and after I started sharing that, I had so many people being like, okay, what are you doing? And then over the next couple of months I was like, I've got to create a course. And then everything was just too busy and I had, you know, like 50 people on the wait list for this course. Hadn't even started it. And I would have, you know, maybe every second day someone saying, when's this carousel course dropping? And eventually I was like, I'm making myself release it on Black Friday. Had to do an all nighter to make that happen. But I did, I made it happen. So I can't even remember if I asked your question, but it. I went viral and then since then, I've gone viral multiple times. And basically I know that when I do a carousel. That's right. Type of carousel, I know that I will get typically minimum 10,000 views, which I don't know any other creator at the moment with my size audience, or even an audience size up to 200,000 that can say that. So carousels are really having a moment. And then my strategy also obviously helps.

So talk us through why you like carousels. Like, why do you find that they are effective? I know it's the views, but why, why do we need those views and what are we doing with those views?

Yeah, it's not just the views, is it? It's the, it's the saves and the follows and this, like seeing this person as a real resource. So I want the followers to see me as a resource because as we all know, views mean nothing, but for me they translate to followers. So the reason why I like carousels and I talk about this in the course is that we are, you know, in an attention economy. As, you know, it's increasingly hard to get attention on reels, unless you're a master at reels, unless you're masterful. Now I think anyone can become a MA at Reels if they devote three months to it. And that's all they do. I haven't done that yet. I'm not a master at Reels. But the difference with carousels is that the user's in control. It's actually interactive. So they swipe. There's music, there's text. It's like an experience if you do it the right way. So there's that control element. And not to mention, is that a new trends that's emerged is this mixed media. So you can actually break down what was once real and turn that into a carousel. So there's so many different ways that you can experiment with it. And I found something that really works with me for me. And I teach my strategy in the viral carousel course and offer some other perspectives as well. But I obviously love it because it's words and that's how I, you know, that's how I've made my living, essentially. Yeah.

So tell us what makes a carousel go viral?

I. Okay. What makes a carousel go viral without spilling all my secrets is a mixture of things. First of all, it needs to. A lot of people just dump information. Okay. No one and I talk about this in the course. You are serving up food to a toddler. If you do not break that food down enough, the toddler's gonna spit it out and they're gonna leave your carousel. So you have to be really strategic about how much information you. You put on a carousel slide. So if I'm putting a paragraph on a carousel slide, I've asked a lot of information. I've asked a lot of effort from my toddler reader. So the very next slide, I'm most likely going to have one line and that's going to keep them swiping. So it's the amount of information. Yes. But it's also the type of content that you are creating. If you are creating content that's like, here's why you're struggling with this, here's why you're struggling with that. And this is why I've created this course that's not going to go viral. People need want to be entertained or they want to have access to some of your skills that they feel like they can't get from anywhere else. So, sure, technically they can get some of my, you know, I just did a carousel on the two words so that in copywriting and technically they could get that information from ChatGPT. Like what's. What's something that can make my sales page better we use the word so that on the end of a bullet point to show a transformation. So I don't know what's an example. Like have our reusable buy our reusable wet wipes so that you can save the environment. Now what I do is I provide transformation, so I'm big on examples so that they can see how that plays out for them. And that's what they can't get from ChatGPT necessarily. I do it in an entertaining way. So it's either creativity or just an insight into what makes you the expert. I think a lot of people are still quite stingy with the expertise. Like give it away and then people will come to trust you and then they'll come to know you as the go to in that area. So if you're a launch specialist, for example, give us some of the information that makes a good launch possible and people will like, people will love that content. And also storytelling, obviously, like how I went from here to here, not how you should go from here to here, but how I went from 3,900 followers at the start of this year in January to 11.7 thousand followers now. That's a lot more interest, more interesting than how you can for your followers in 2025.

So I love this and so I feel like there's this piece around like educational content that kind of got like bad rap for a while.

Right.

Like I think that there was a lot of talk around like the whole five steps and five tips to this. Like it got really boring.

Right.

But like what you're saying as well is let's go back to the educational content, but make it fun, make it entertaining.

Yes. Yeah.

And make it valuable.

Yeah, well, that's what's worked for me. I like, I mean I do a combination of entertainment and valuable, but lots of my stuff is just valuable. I'm thinking, okay, I'm hyper fixated on what does my audience want. Okay, they are responding really well. And that's the amazing thing about social media. You get the feedback in real time. They're responding to when I do posts with AI. So how can I serve them further? Okay, what about everyone who follows me needs to research the ideal audience? So how about I give them a prompt that you know, that they can research their ideal audience with. How about I give that away and then they will save that and then they will follow that, follow me because they think that I'm a source of value. So that's educational. It's also giving something away. I did a post on the two words. These two words can transform your copywriting. So that. That's educational. And I think where educational content has had its downfall is that you'll have someone who's been in business for two months. They've got 23 followers. No shade on that. We all have to start somewhere. But they're saying, here's how to grow your social media following in five steps in 20, 25. And you're like, honey, like that.

Maybe. Maybe do that first.

Yeah. What content you need to be doing is, here's how I'm going to be growing my social media from 23 followers to 10,000 this year. Come with me on my journey. That's very different. That's the change.

Yes. I love that. So good. So the storytelling piece is like something that you are so freaking talented at. And I just love the entertainment flex that you really put into your content because I think every carousel I read of yours, I have a laugh. Like, there's got this. So good. So how important? And I don't kind of know the answer to this, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on. On the first slide in the carousel. Like, obviously, like you're saying it takes a long what? Because what I'm noticing on Instagram at the moment is like, you're saying it takes a longer time for it to go viral, and yet I'm noticing that I'm getting refed older carousels that I've actually seen, but I'm actually seeing a different slide. Are you seeing this as well?

Yeah, that's actually been happening for a while. So that's why carousels are amazing as well, because you have, you have two opportunities to capture your same audience. So if your first slide is in, if they don't engage with your first slide, Instagram will serve them up your second slide as if it was the first slide. So you've got two opportunities there to capture engagement. And on top of what you're asking about earlier in terms of, like, what makes a viral carousel, it's also watch time. Watch times are really important for Instagram. So the longer you can keep them swiping and the longer you can keep them reading, the better. And so Instagram is actually helping carousels out. I mean, reels don't get that same service level, level of service from Instagram. It's like the one thing Adam, Missouri is doing to help create us out is with the carousels, is giving us those two opportunities there. Yeah. So good.

And so what suggestions or what are your thoughts around what to Put on those two slides, like to get people hooked.

I just keep mine really, really simple and I do a lot of how to's and that's. That works for me. But someone. So I've had a lot of people since, you know, selling this viral carousel course, I've had a lot of people sending me to, sending me the carousels, saying like, what are some suggestions? And I'm like, this isn't the service, but I'll give you some suggestions for now because it's obviously a DIY cause, but I think it's just simplifying it. So I teach a lot about friction and this is the same with websites as it is for carousels is that when it feels too hard, you're going to swipe away. We don't have much effort to bring to content now. So. So something simple, something that's easy to read. None of you'll actually go through a lot of my carousels and none of them are groundbreaking like the first cover. I don't even think I covered this in the viral carousel course because I know I did. I covered hooks, I gave a whole bunch of hooks. But they're like how to. I don't know how to write better email subject lines. I just make sure there's something that my ideal audience wants.

Yeah.

And I don't over complicate it. I also do a lot of news jacking. So I understand that it's hard to get people's attention. I'm constantly thinking about maybe this is my old high school English teacher brain, but I expect people to be bored. So I'm fighting against that the whole time. So I'm like, okay, so if I'm teaching about email subjects, what else can I put on that slide? Can I put a photo of Taylor Swift in? Can I work it into Taylor Swift somehow so that I am piggybacking off the attention. And that's obviously the philosophy behind dirty chats as well. That's my advice. But really keeping it low friction. And I think if we start observing the behavior that we have with carousels, often the carousels you swipe through are the ones that are just one liners and you're just swiping because they're so easy. So with the headline, keep it very, very simple. Very, very simple.

And so I love this because I think you brought it back to the most important pieces. Like make sure that it's specifically speaking to your ideal client and understanding what their problems or their everyday experiences are like. I find like for me it's like that relatable piece, like how I can make it so relatable, that makes them be like, yeah, me too. Like, I just put up a. I shared a. I don't even know if it was a carousel. I just shared someone else's Instagram to my story yesterday. And it was something like, are you, are you really in an entrepreneurial journey if you haven't thought about giving up and selling your feet pics? And the amount of DMS that I got from that, it's not even my content. I'm like, so good, but it's so relatable. And I think that that is something that is really key, that you've got to make sure that you're speaking to your ideal client. And I love that. Even just taking it back to what you were saying earlier, like when you create that consistency of your content again and again and again, like over 30 days or whatever it might be, you get so good at really understanding your ideal client because you can tweak it and really start to go be like, what actually hit, what landed? What's something that people really related to? I think that you do that really well. So I love that you've just tied that in beautifully. How do we go about doing this on repeat? So obviously you've like paid attention to the data. That's something that's really important that you're noticing, which I've noticed. You say, is there anything else in particular that you come back to again and again that helps you develop the. And do this on repeat again and again?

I mean, I come back to the strategy that I have with, you know, keeping the friction really low. But also. Yeah, I mean, it's always hyper specific on my audience. I'm always thinking and responding to what's happening with my audience. So I wasn't talking about AI last year, I'm talking about AI now. I used to do a lot of newsjacking last year. I'm not doing it as much this year. So I remember doing something on Ballerina Farm earlier this year is kind of case studies. And I've noticed that my simple educational content is actually potentially doing better now. So maybe I'm leaning more into that. So it is just that thing that's responsive. But also I think what's allowed me to repeat my success with so many carousels is I've built up that trust with people. And in terms of you saying that, you have like a chuckle every time you read a carousel, what happens when we make someone laugh is they get a shot of dopamine. And that makes them more primed to be able to remember you. Not only me, like my brand, you remember my brand. And you also primed. Your brain's primed for learning, so then you can also learn. So if I'm able to actually create this shot of dopamine in my readers, then it's like they're getting addicted to my post. They want to come back. They're expecting to laugh. They're like, oh, another carousel. So I think creating that predictability in the style and serving up humor. And I get that everyone can't. Not necessarily everyone can't do that, although I do teach it in my course. But how can we. Not even necessarily. If you're not humorous or funny or witty, that's fine. But how can we throw in unexpected things? How could we break the fourth wall? How could we relate this back to something that's just really, really human, that we wouldn't expect them to talk about on the carousel and that maybe you can't be funny, but maybe you can be surprising? You know, something that I've done a lot, not a lot. I've just started playing around with it in my carousels is I'll be doing some writing, some writing, some writing, and then I'll just have like one full slide of like a funny meme reaction. And it's like a surprise. Like they're not expecting it and they think it's funny. So then they swipe again, but they get served up that little shot of like, oh, this is funny. Chuckle, chuckle. I'm swiping. Yeah. So good.

So good. I did do notice that with yours, for sure. Talk us through the impact of design, because I also love that you're really articulate with your design. And it's very pretty. It's very enjoyable. How important do you find the design versus the content?

Is the design is almost more important than the content? The design. I think I spend so much of my viral carousel course on, on the design because it's about minimizing friction. It's about making sure that they actually read it. If you don't get the design right, they won't read it. I could have the funniest content, but if it's in font that's too small, they're not going to read it. If it's smooshed up in, like, paragraph after paragraph after paragraph, I could be Mindy Kaling. They won't read it. So it's super, super important.

Thank you for saying that, because I feel like it's one of those Things that I really do, like carousels. But sometimes I get time poor and I'm like just gonna put all of this content, like text on this and I, I'm bad at doing that.

Just break it up. Just like put one line on everything. That, that's better than putting it all together and that's really good for time. Poor entrepreneurs, like whack a photo on one line. They just swipe through and just, just throw it, you know, whack it through chat, GPT and ask if this is a compelling story. And that's like the first step.

Yeah, love that. And is there anything else that we haven't talked about just yet that causes a carousel to flop? Like what are you noticing that people are doing out there that is like, oh, that's actually what's causing it to flop or not do well?

Yeah, I mean design would be the number one. And just like too much writing and also friction in terms of the fact that like there's this trend at the moment of some seven figure entrepreneur woman and they have kind of like a dark blackie gray background with photos behind it and then white text, you can't really read it. And that kind of content will do okay for those really successful entrepreneurs because people are more invested so they're going to put more energy into someone who's famous than little old Susie who's got, you know, 500 followers. They, who's trying to attract new, new followers. So making sure it's really, really clear, easy to read, easy to understand is number one. And then I'd really, really push you to try and have unique content. And it's so hard on Instagram. Everyone's copying and everyone's doing what everyone else is doing. But I have built my brand on trying to do something original and it's going to be so important moving into 2026. We need to work out what our unique voices, our unique method of communicating what we do before the bots come in and just take over Instagram. That's how take over the world.

So for someone who is not a copywriter, for someone who like is listening to you and you're like, yep, cool, Marissa, like I get it, you're great at this. But I, I find it really hard. Like how, what kind of mindset do you get into or what's, what's your strategy around getting into the headspace to be able to create that unique content? Because I think sometimes we, sometimes people scroll too much and then they get caught up in like comparison. I've heard other people Talk about, like, go and look at 10 other competitors and see what went viral for them and recreate that. Like, there's so much noise out there. Like, how do you get into the headspace to create these viral reels for, sorry, viral carousels?

I would say I am almost never in the headspace to create a viral carousel. Almost never. So the one that went two point, I just had one that went 2.8 million and I had it on my to do list. I am writing a carousel today. I had an idea. I hadn't fleshed out that idea and I sat down and wrote it. Now, obviously, I'm a copywriter and a creative copywriter, so ideas come more easily to me because I've practiced also and I put it out now. I never know if, when I start writing whether or not it's going to be amazing. I have my little brainstorm, but it's just practice. I think we have to get out of this idea that we're going to feel like doing these things. I would rather be watching, like, Owning Manhattan or I haven't watched that terrible program that Kim Kardashian put out, the All's Fear. I want to watch that, but I'm not because I'm doing my freaking carousels because it's on my list. So I think there's a lot of fear thoughts, research disguised as action that comes around content creation. No, just start. Just start. And the more you do something, the better you'll get at it. And I have some friends starting to do businesses or starting their own businesses, and I can see them looking and thinking around, which is really important. But you're just going to be a big girl and just start doing it because it's fear, actually. It's fear that your content's not going to perform. It probably won't perform, actually. When you first start, it's fear that you're going to be embarrassed about what you're putting out there. You will look back on your content and be embarrassed. Just be. Just admit those things to yourself and then just do it anyway. So I think just that reflex of, like, I'm doing this whether or not I feel like it. I just. You know, I've been filming a reel before this. I have no idea how it's going to go. I don't know if I'm going to look stupid. I don't really do reels that much anymore, but who cares? My feelings are irrelevant in the matter because content is part of this marketing game. So it's not a very.

Oh, my God. So, so freaking true. And I think that it needs to be shattered from the rooftops. Because I think people get into the, like, oh, no, I have to get into the flow. I have to get into the vibe. Like, no, you just have to be consistent.

For you, how many things do you do that you don't want to do in your business?

So many. So many. And I don't think about it. I actually just don't give it any energy.

Right.

Because I think if you spend the time being like, oh, how do I feel about this? Your body and your brain is going to be like, we can't be fucked. I'd rather just watch Owning Manhattan as well. Like. And so I think that it's about how you talk yourself into it just to build the consistency and the discipline. Because anyone you look at, like your. If you look at someone else that you admire in the space that is doing really, really well, they're not having that conversation with themselves, like, can I be bothered? Or it's like, no, this has to happen. It's an action as part of your business.

Yeah, it's just like doing your taxes. That's what you're doing. Because we all know it's the way that you're going to grow. And I think we need to start looking at it like exercise. There are very few times we feel like exercising, but actually we enjoy the fruits of exercise. Well, same, same, yes. Speaking from someone else's experience, I'm just trying to get back into it. All right.

Yeah, I get it. So talk to us about the sales element because I feel like I'd love to hear your thoughts on when you are creating more of a sales carousel. How do you notice the difference in the reach and what it does? And is there any other take that you have on how to weave in the sales messaging or the call to action that actually supports the growth of your business?

Yeah, I hate being in sales periods because I'm forced to create sales content and it never does as well. So this is something that I see a lot of people, a lot of business owners do. They're only creating sales content. So the only creating CTA is at the end of the content. That's like. And that's why you need to join this and that's why your content is never going to go viral like that. My carousels, they don't flop, but they'll only get maybe 4,000 views, not 11 or 20 or 40,000 views. So I hate doing that because I love being a content creator that entertains. But at the same time, I'm running a business, so I have to. So it's really, really important. And I think it's just having an understanding and being okay with the fact that every piece of content serves a different purpose. So the reason I love doing carousels and they are going to do better than my reel that I am about to post. I know that, but the reason why I still do reels is because it's really important that my followers see my face and they see my energy. They feel that. So every. Every different piece of content has a different function, and sales is still really important. So with sales carousels, I mean, I try to put as much humor as I can into it in order to still keep my same flavor. But also, I just. I'm like, it's not going to go viral. That's okay. Not every piece of content should. And I think if we get into that mindset, it's okay for this piece to flop. And because I like to think of our marketing efforts as like a puzzle. So this one piece of content isn't going to create the full picture, but over three years of puzzle pieces, they're going to get a really beautiful, clear picture of who we are. Some of those puzzle pieces are going to be like the face of the person that's like the viral content, and others are going to be like 10 of the blue clouds that look exactly the same and aren't going to be that popular, but they still create the. They still create the picture 1,000%.

And I think that you've also got to be conscious of, like, if you're just posting viral content with that in mind of, like, well, I'm not going to put the sales element on there because I'm so worried that it will bomb. You actually won't have a business. Like, you literally don't make any money.

Make money. We're okay with that. We can say that we want to make money. So you have to create sales content. And I would say just for. For all of us, when we see our friends putting out sales content, know that it's probably not going to have as much reach. Let's support it. Like, like, let's comment, let's save so that we can help them out, because we're all in this together and we're all trying to earn as much money as we can so we can have better lives for our family and help other people and. Or, you know, just buy the bag.

That's it. Love that. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's so Incredibly important because I think people have a lot of shame around making money in their business when really, like, you need to be.

Like, I think people in New Zealand and Australia have that. I don't think. I don't think Americans struggle with that at all.

No, I think they're fine with it.

That fine with it. They're fine with getting the bag.

Love it. So talk to us where we can find your mini course, because I'm sure.

Everyone'S like, I am just about to update my. Okay, I'm a website copywriter, guys. I need to update my website so that you can actually buy stuff off my website. In the meantime, it's going to be on my Instagram profile from today. It's going to say, buy my viral carousels course. If you want to purchase it and you are listening here, you can. I'll give Christine a code off for 30%. What's the name? Should we say it's unstoppable? Sure, the code is unstoppable. So for 30. 30% off.

Amazing, amazing. Make sure it's in the show notes so people can access that. Is there a time. Let them give a timeline. Like, they need to buy by when.

Let's say by the end of. What should we say? When's this going out?

This will go out this month. So maybe like the end of Jan or something like.

It depends on end of January. So then you can start your content game strong in 2026 with viral carousels. And also I do want to say you need to have some really, really not sober expectations, but I didn't go viral after three years of posting really good carousels. I went viral after posting consistently for 30 days. So you, you're putting up one piece of content. You take my course. That first piece of content isn't going to go viral instantly. It might. Please tell me if it does. But it's consistency. Consistency training the algorithm. You know, it's just the boring stuff that moves the needle.

And can you clarify as well, like, when you say consistency, because you before, you were saying, like, I might do two posts a week, two carousels a week, but you were doing. You were doing content every single day for 30 days.

Yeah, that's what I did. And then from there on, I probably now post about four times a week. And that will slow down over the Christmas period. I'm aiming to post once over the Christmas period to keep it up. And yeah, I'll take a hit, but it's all, whatever.

Yeah, you're all good because business is good because you had a Friday sale. So talk to us about. I want to talk to you about Dirty Chats because you did so well with launching it. Like, I absolutely just loved watching the launch process that you put out with Dirty Chats. Like, I was like, go girl, get it.

And it was, it was your color. Sorry.

Oh, totally fine. But also like acknowledging the energy that went into that and the determination and the consistency because it wasn't just a, a week. Like it was actually a long period of time. Tell us a little bit about your ideas behind launching that.

Well, my ideas, like everything, like most things started with how I wanted to do it different, differently. So I had followed a few people that had just put out podcasts. So they had the day before said, help me choose a cover. Then the next week said, I've done a thing. Yeah. And it was, you know, another podcast that seemed like every other podcast. And I just remember thinking, again, I like to observe my own patterns of behavior when I'm interacting with social media. Why would I listen to that? That's just what I keep thinking. And so when it came to my own launch, I knew I was going to have a month long marketing campaign, like, minimum. I knew I needed to do something to get people's attention. So speaking of, you know, how we were talking about how you have to do things you don't want to do in business and not necessarily being sure that it's going to be a smash hit, but you're going to do it anyway. I remember thinking about, okay, I want to do a photo shoot. I want it to be outrageous. I want to put it on billboards. Never got around to that. That's still going to happen. At first it was going to be fake billboards, but now I actually want real ones. So I found the super creative photographer in New Zealand. She'd done some cool, cool shoots that pushed the boat. And I, we started coming up with some ideas and we had this idea, you know, to play on the name dirty so it would have something to do with clean. So it would be in the bath, we would have soapsuds. We would have me like putting on like pink rubber gloves. Would have me in like outrageous kind of like lycra pants. So I remember booking this photographer and it costs $3,000 or something. And I remember thinking, I don't feel like necessarily this is going to move the needle. I don't know if this is going to be the right outcome, like if this is going to do anything for my business. But I'm look, I'm just going to give it a crack. I remember driving there thinking, I don't necessarily necessarily feel like doing this. Is this the right thing? Got to the photo shoot, had a blast. She was incredible. And that was one of the pivotal things, I think, in my me launching a number one podcast. So I teased that, that photo shoot so hard, I got a lot of mileage out of that. I said, you know, something's coming, made everyone guess. And then just because they. I created a teaser reel out of that for my podcast announcement in an announcement video. And because it was such a, like, it was such a pattern interrupt me being in a bath, it really got people's attention. And then I brought in the audience. So I got them to help me with my name. I got them to help me. I ended up choosing the one I liked anyway. That was a whole thing. And then I helped. I got them to help me choose my, my podcast cover, which I chose. I took their advice on that. I showed them, you know, snippets of the music, the intro music that my husband had been composing because he's a musician. I did that month long hyping it up. The other thing I did, which felt really scary, is that I said to everyone, like, I'm gonna have a number one podcast. I had no idea. I didn't even know how to check the charts. I didn't even know that. I had no idea. But I was like, I'm gonna beat some Stephen Bartlett. I'm gonna be number one in marketing. Because that was my in for New Zealand, because that was my niche. So I did. So that came from me, all of that. And then I was part of Chris and Laurie Harder's mentorship, which you've been part of. And I speak so highly of them. They're incredible. And I took one of his, like mini trainings on how to make your podcast go number one. And he talked about, it's all about that first 10 to 14 days, is how many downloads and reviews you can get in that 10 to 14 days. So I did a bunch of things that he recommended I released. He recommended releasing six episodes. The first week. I only released four because time, you know, having a giveaway for reviews, which I had. And you know, I had 10 days, a 10 day window for people to do that. I had a close friends chat, which was my idea. So I, you know, went back and forth and showed them, you know, the type of microphone I was buying, all of that. So they felt like they were coming along the journey. And I just brought like as you said a lot, a lot of energy. And I think that's also where the mindset came in because I was just so focused, like, this is going to be amazing. This is going to be number one. And then it was only, like, it was hell for me to actually, like, get the first episode. I really struggled, like, with the format because it's just solo, it's just me talking. I, you know, I had to change from writing to speaking on a podcast. And I had some terrible feedback from my best friend, which ended up being amazing feedback. But, like, I got so, so discouraged a couple of days before this launch that I'd created this big, you know. Yeah. So that was hard, but ultimately it made me redo it. And then the night before, I was like, oh, what if this is a flop? I hadn't had time to consider what if I failed in front of everyone, really. And then I didn't even check the. What's funny about the giveaway is that I didn't even check the, the ratings because I didn't know how to do it for the first couple of days. I announced the giveaway and I didn't realize that, like, on day two, I'd already gone number one. So I could have saved my money with the $500 giveaway. Yeah. So, yeah, so I was number one in New Zealand, in Croatia, I was number, I think three in Australia, number five in Canada. I think I was number 58 in the States. And it was really, really cool. And I owe that success also to Chris and also to that month long marketing campaign. But I do think, you know, speaking of owning Manhattan, Ryan Sirhant talks about how sales is an exchange of enthusiasm. And I think if you go into it thinking this is going to be an incredible podcast, people are going to listen to that. People feel that energy, and you're really good at that as well. That's what I think about you. When you talk about your masterminds, you can feel the energy that you know it's going to be incredible. Your conference, you felt that energy coming from you as well.

Yeah, it is. It's the conviction. People need that certainty and that conviction because if they don't see you believing in it, why the hell would they believe in it? Like, right? And I also love the real uniqueness, the unique take on how you do weave in this. How do I put it? Like, is the celebritization of it, but. Or how you then weave it into the marketing. But I just want to speak really, really quickly because I know we're coming to time. But like, how, like, how do you go about speaking about celebrities in this way? Because I think that's very confronting. Like, sometimes it's like, hey, I don't agree with what they did here, or I'm going to share my opinion on this in a really controversial or disruptive way. How do you go about, like, handling that?

Yeah, I mean, I've had some. I've had some people not like what I say. This was even before this was in a carousel. I've had some backlash from people I think I shared, you know, before I had my podcast about the Justin Baldoni black lively thing and my take on that. And another copywriter said, you know, this story about me. I'm disgusted that this person would use this for marketing fodder. And I was like, I'm not using it for marketing fodder. Well, I probably am, actually. I probably am using it for marketing for it, but it's actually what I think. So I can either not share what I think and water myself down, or I can share what I think and attract my ideal audience. And there are going to be people that listen to me that don't agree with everything that I say, but they're also here for the tea, you know? Yes. And also, I'm the type of person that holds opinions lightly. Like, I. If I'm in a conversation with you and I'm saying, like, the same sky is red. I know the sky is red. And you're like, well, actually, here's some evidence for the sky being blue. I actually really appreciate robust discussions. And that's something that's been lost from today. It's like, everyone gets so butt hurt. And I want to be a brand that just says it like it is. Like, if I think Violet Affleck's being annoying, speaking to the UN about how everyone needs to be in mass and how her parents. Like, if I was a parent, I'd be embarrassed about her. If that's what I actually think, then I should say that there are limits. Of course there are limits. But I think the pussy footing around is possibly what's causing some people not to have an engaged audience. And the controversy that I have drummed up hasn't been because I've wanted to have controversy. Controversy. It's because it's actually what I think. And that's possibly harder because some people don't, like, actually like who I am. But that's okay. You have to know that the bigger you get, the more backlash you're gonna get. Like, if you wanted to be a celebrity the size of Kim Kardashian, you would have to have. Imagine the height you. Yeah, you would have to stomach it. So if you can't stomach that on, like, a thread that someone writes about you when you've only got 6,000 followers, which is what happened to me. A couple of people wrote threads about me. If I can't handle that, how could I handle getting up to the level that I am planning on getting up to? Like, it's actually just practice. And obviously, I can still learn from things. I actually don't want to. I truly don't want to offend people. But also, I know, like, when you talk to your friends, if someone else was listening in, you're probably gonna offend someone. Like, because you're quite honest with your girlfriends and you're like, hey, dipshit, or whatever you say to them, you know, like, and if someone was like, okay, I can't believe you speak to people like that, that you'd be so demeaning. It's like, go away. Like, I wouldn't hang out with you anyway. You're annoying.

That's it. Like, you are absolutely attracting the right people because they're going to either love what you say or just even love the courage of you saying what you. What you think. Like, I just love that energy around it. So I love that, like, absolutely honoring you in your courage and doing that, because it is not easy and putting yourself out there in that way is not easy. So I just absolutely love that and see that within you and just be like, amazing. So cool.

Thank you.

Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. It's been so fun chatting with you and thank you for sharing all of your viral carousel content and all the. All the ideas and the hacks that we can start diving into. So if anyone wants to dive into Marissa's course, definitely check out the link in the show notes and grab your discount code. Otherwise, come and check out Dirty Copy on Instagram and send us copy on Instagram.

Some hoes taken. Dirty coffee. No, no, it's not even used. So dirty dot copy.

Dirty dot copy. And send us a message. Let us know what you took away from this episode. It's always fun to hear your thoughts and your take back. And if you love it, leave a review. I'd love to see that on the podcast. And yeah, thank you so much for being a part of it today.

I've loved chatting. Thank you.