Simon Sinek and Trevor Noah on the Quality More Leaders Need To Talk About | Full Conversation

Good afternoon, everybody. How you doing? Thank you, Gail, one person. It's funny, when you greet a Swedish crowd, they just look at you. And then Gail, clearly we've been to black church. You greeted me back.

I appreciate that. You know the joke about Swedish, when you meet a Swedish person, the difference between a Swedish introvert and a Swedish extrovert? Do you know this one? When you meet a Swedish introvert, when they're talking to you, they look at their shoes. And when you meet a Swedish extrovert, when they talk to you, they look at your shoes.

Oh, I like that. I hope you like that. I didn't say anything about Swedish people, he did. Welcome everyone. This is the final conversation. A lot of people have asked me what we're talking about. You know, they'll be like, who's moderating, who's not moderating? I'll try to frame a little bit of this for you really quickly. Anastasia asked us to sort of try and synthesize, I guess, the time we've spent here together. And so technically, we'll say I'm moderating. Because this man's brilliant and I ride with him. So Simon, I'm going to give you the difficult task of kicking us off. You know, I'll set it up by saying this. Kind is a really broad word. Kindness is even broader. After the days we've spent here together, where do you think Simon is versus where he was before we got here?

We've heard a lot about acts of kindness and kindness being given, and I think there's two thoughts come to mind. What about kindness being received as well? That we heard about from Yunomi, for example, fleeing North Korea, the kindness being received. And I think kindness being received is a more emotionally overwhelming experience kindness being given. Kindness being given, we talk about it's good to be kind, it's nice to be kind, but how many of us are actually adept at receiving kindness? I think some of us are embarrassed by it. Some of us don't know how to react to it. And I have— what I'm processing is one of the acts of kindness is to receive kindness. When somebody gives you a gift and you say, "No, no, no." And they say, "But I bought this for you." And you say, "No, no, no." It becomes rude to reject the gift at some point. And at the end of the day, to simply say, "Thank you, thank you," makes the other person feel good. So even if you're uncomfortable by the compliment, the gift, the act of kindness, the act of warmth, the act of generosity, there's a great act of kindness in the reception of kindness as well. Because what kindness is is community. It's the forming, it's the foundation of community. And so we have to remember community is both ways. I define community as a group of people who agree to grow together. And so if we agree to grow together, that means kindness must beget kindness must beget kindness, and this is where trust comes.

I like that. So it's an interesting idea, you know, kindness being harder to receive. Is there an element of people being uncomfortable in and around kindness then?

I think— I think superficial kindness we understand. Be nice to someone, say thank you, be polite, pay them a compliment. I think we all get that, right? And I think we can all be a little more kind. And that's usually where our minds go, you know? But I think kindness includes discomfort. And I think the most difficult kind of kindness is the uncomfortable kind of kindness. So for example, somebody you know suffers some sort of, tragedy. They lose someone close to them in an untimely fashion. They lose their job, whatever it is. And so many times we do nothing because we don't want to say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing. And sometimes we do say and do the wrong thing and it does trigger someone. And so I think there is something about saying, "I don't know what to do, but I think it's right to do something." And to lean into trying to be kind, not knowing how it's going to be received, but it's the right thing to do, I think is the most difficult act of kindness because when someone is suffering, so often what we do is we leave them alone, which is not an act of kindness. I'll tell you a personal experience that really captures this. I did some work with the US Air Force. I'll spare you the long story, but I went to Afghanistan with them and I was there to witness them doing their missions and it was an amazing experience. I was, you know, at Bagram Air Base and something happened that none of us expected, me and my two escorts, we flew home with a flag-draped casket on a big military transport plane. So I slept next to this casket for 9.5 hours. I didn't do much sleeping, but I lay next to it. And it was a profound experience that profoundly changed my life. It changed my perspective on the world. And the deal I made with the Air Force was they would send me into this war zone to observe, and I would come back and report what I saw. And so about a week after the event, I went to Scott Air Force Base in Illinois, and I stood on the stage with all of the generals and the colonels, and I was telling them about my experience and offering some ideas. And then I get to this point in the story about coming home with this flag-draped casket. The emotion's still very raw, and I go quiet. And what's going through my mind is, do I talk about this? So first decision was yes, I'll tell the story. And midway through the story, I get stuck. I start welling up. The emotions are overwhelming, and I can't— I can't go on. I can't move forwards. Now, if this had happened to me in the private sector, and it's happened, where I get emotional on the stage, invariably someone will say, "It's okay." Yeah. "Take your time. Take your time. We'll wait for you." Right? As if to say, "You over there." And I was standing on the stage unable to speak, and one voice, It was the commanding general, the 4-star, at the back of the room, he said, "Go on," as if to say, "Go on, we are with you, you are safe." I choke up talking about it now. And it was the act of courage when somebody was emotional to say, "Move forwards, not wait." And I think that there's an— we so often think we're being kind by giving people space or saying, It's okay, but we very rarely think it's a kind thing to say, move forwards, go, and I will, the underlying message being, and I will be with you.

I've been trying to synthesize like the complexities of kindness. It's funny, so I was chatting to Esther Perel yesterday, and what I love about, you know, talking to people who have great minds is like sort of dissecting them, trying to understand what we're not seeing in what we're seeing. And as I was going through it, I realized one of the main things no one really teaches us is that there are three distinct types of kindness. Maybe there are more, but there are three that I can find. And we've experienced a lot of them in this conference, but like, there's kindness to yourself. Which sometimes we forget. You know, like when Bryan Johnson was up here, and I spoke to some people who maybe didn't get it as clearly, you know, and, you know, I know Bryan and I will geek out about a few, like, health things, but, like, some people were chatting with me and they were like, "Ah, Bryan, he, like, he wants us to do medical tests on ourselves and it's forever," and I was like, "No, no, no, no, no, no." The underlying message I heard was like, "Hey, be kind to yourself." That's what sleep is. Be kind to yourself. Meditate. Be kind to yourself. Work. You know what I mean? And then you heard some other talks, like you were saying, where some people are going, there's being kind to the people you know. Be kind to your family, your community. And then there's probably the hardest one, and that's what Bryan was just telling us now. Stevenson was like, being kind to strangers. Being kind to an idea that doesn't necessarily make you feel like you. Does that make sense? And I think that's probably been one of the most, I think like strangely enough, a lot of us will think of kindness. If you ask most people, what is kindness? Everyone thinks first and foremost about like a person that you're interacting with. Very seldom do we think of kindness to ourselves and very seldom do we think of kindness to someone that's not there or that we don't see.

How are you defining kindness?

Well, the way I break it down is I go, first I go, what is not kindness? Niceness is a good example. Right? A lot of people are nice. Yeah. You know, I find a lot of like, for instance, Scandinavian, Swedish people, not very nice, but very kind. And it's a very complicated thing to understand, you know, because niceness is the performance of kindness, but it's not necessarily the action. You know, it is a nice thing to say something to somebody. It is a nice thing to smile at somebody, but kindness is doing something. Do you know what I mean?

Giving somebody harsh feedback, hard feedback. Is kind but not nice. Yes, if you've got the right way. Not giving somebody feedback is nice but not kind.

It is very nice. You know, like, for instance, this is a small thing, but I'm always thrown when someone has something on their face and no one tells them. It's very nice to not tell them. You have something on your face. Don't tell them. You're being nice. It's better to be kind and be like, hey man, your face. Do you get what I'm saying? And I think it's a very simple example of it, but it's also a very complex idea because because one makes everyone feel like everything's going right. The other one is being able to embrace the discomfort of what's not, in a way.

I think you're touching on the thing that I think we're both teasing out of this, which is kindness. True kindness is uncomfortable. It can be. Nice is not uncomfortable.

Yes, yes.

That's what I was getting at.

That's the difference.

There's a discomfort in kindness. Being kind to yourself is uncomfortable because it means I have to I have to put myself first. I have to give myself grace. And sometimes it's easier to just beat myself up or not. And I think kindness comes with, dare I say it, courage. I think courage and kindness is different than generosity.

Yeah, they overlap, but they're not the same.

They overlap, but they're not the same. Being generous is giving money to a cause. Look how generous. Kindness is giving a non-redeemable commodity. Time, energy. And though we want generosity and we want people to give money, sure, I think if somebody gives you— if you're moving and your friend says, "I'll pay for the moving van," very generous. Somebody else says, "I'll come to your house. I'll help you pack the boxes. I'll go with you, help you unpack the boxes." That's a non-redeemable commodity. They'll never get that time or energy back. And I think that— as I think this through with you, as I think out loud about this, I think kindness there's a discomfort, but I also think there's a degree of sacrifice that comes with kindness. Again, one is not better than worse. It's not better than the other. It's not a judgment. I want to see generosity in the world and kindness in the world, but I think we sometimes conflate the two, and I don't think they're the same. And that's sort of one of the things I'm getting from this.

What I think is always interesting is to look at the meaning of words. So what I love about English as a language is that it's the bastard tongue. Right? And so whenever I meet people who speak other languages, and obviously in South Africa we speak a bunch, so I speak a few. I love getting into like what a word means. And because English has become this default, what English sort of took it from. I find it interesting that in many languages around the world, I won't say most because I don't know all of them, but in many languages around the world, kindness doesn't hold the same etymology and origin that it does in English. So in most languages, kindness can be traced to generosity and benevolence. In French, I think it has a very similar meaning. In Arabic, there's a word that's like held very deeply. It means to be like of service, to be generous, to be kind. In Chinese, there's a word. In Russian, you go through in Greek, all of them. They all come back to generosity.

Generosity or service?

No, generosity and benevolence, service, all of them, but it's all different in the different languages. The origin of kind I find very interesting in English because I think it gives us an insight into what might be missing in today's world. And it's what makes it complex. Humankind, the same kind, kindred, my kin. That's literally where it comes from in English. We are the same kind. You trace the word back and the word kind came from saying you are me and I am you. That's where it came from. And so when we are saying we are being kind to one another in English, the origin of it meant I am seeing you as me and I'm believing that you are seeing me as you, right? And as I've been thinking about it, I've been going, "Oh, that's probably why we're struggling to live in a world that is kind." Because for various reasons, we now live in a world where everyone is the audience of one. Do you know what I mean?

And we see each other as more different.

Yeah, but that's what I mean by audience of one.

And if kindness is, if the kindness and etymologically the foundation of community, then how can we ever be a community? There's no such thing as community or tribe or belonging or safety. Without kindness. The two literally are impossible to have. Kindness is the thing that creates the feeling of safety.

Yes, because we have to be the same. So, okay, I'll give you a simple example. Yesterday, everyone's having every different conversation. Everyone's talking about everything, musicians, artists, business people, you name it. It was fascinating to see what happened when the tweets between Elon Musk and Donald Trump came out. We all became the same kind. That moment connected everybody. Everyone started saying, did you see what happened? Did you see what happened? Oh my God, what do you think? But what I find most fascinating in that moment is that everyone, everyone became the same kind. And I realized that those moments are more valuable than we think. Because as we live in a world where everything is becoming for you, right? Your internet page is for you. Your algorithm is for you. Your TV shows are for you, right? Because you stream, you don't even have to watch things at the same time as everybody else. Like when I grew up, I had to watch what my parents were watching. And sometimes they had to watch what I was watching because That was the TV. Now you live in a world where every single person in a household can watch whatever they want, how they want. And while that's great for your personal enjoyment of life, it means you are less of the same kind. You know? So now you don't have the same reference. You don't have the same joke. You don't have the same news. You don't have the same story. And if you live in a world like that, how do you then think that the other person deserves what you deserve or thinks what you think?

It goes back to sacrifice. Which is to be kind, I have to give something up of myself for myself for someone else in this moment. I have to watch my parents' TV show even though I don't want to because that's the deal. You may not have seen it as kind, but you could have gone away, but you didn't. You sat on the couch and just watched. Yeah, you were just there. Because it was nice to be as a family. So does kind— and we heard it. Again, I'll go back to Yunomi, you know, The missionaries who were kind to rescue her and her mother put themselves at great sacrifice. And there's sacrifices of life, there's sacrifices of humiliation, there's sacrifices of being rejected from your own tribe by putting yourself out there. That these acts of kindness are highly risky.

Because they involve doing.

Because they involve doing, but they also involve putting yourself out there. For yourself or for another, which you said kindness to yourself.

But I think the doing is the biggest thing. We heard a few people up here saying it in different ways. Obviously the most recent being Bryan. But the doing, you know what's hard about doing other than the obvious is it requires more. So again, while I was chatting to Esther about it, we talk about emotions and stuff. I was going like, what is a feeling? I was going like kindness and empathy. And you know what's really fascinating to me is empathy requires you to feel what somebody else is feeling. Kindness requires you to do something about it. You do not need empathy to be kind. That's something that I find interesting. You can be kind without feeling. And some people will be like, no, you can't. You know, you can. You can literally not feel. You may not feel what the other person's feeling, but you go, you know what? I think they deserve justice. I think they need help. I think they, I can't feel what they're going through. But the opposite isn't true. You can have empathy and no kindness. And that's, that's something that stuck with me as I was thinking about it. In fact, you know, when we're talking now about Ukraine, Russia, the world, everything we're going through, one of the biggest things I've noticed is populists are brilliant at weaponizing empathy. Do you know what I mean? Wherever you go in the world, populists are brilliant at feeling what people are feeling. Criticize Donald Trump all you want. That man feels what many Americans feel. He knows how to feel it for them. How he acts doesn't necessarily address what they're feeling, but boy does he feel it. Viktor Orbán, You go wherever you want in the world. These people are good at weaponizing the empathy because they go, I do feel what you're feeling, and so I'm going to act on it in a way that may not address what you're feeling. So I have a question.

I have a question. And I like this. I like breaking these things too down. So if somebody can express empathy, do people just give them credit that things they do are kind because they feel the empathy?

Yes. So here's the best analogy I can think of. If you've ever been to a hospital and you've ever had to be helped by people in like the medical industry, nurses in particular I find this with, a lot of nurses are not nice. They really aren't, but they're kind. And what I mean by that is like they do what they need to do to help you and they really do it. And I've seldom met a nurse who doesn't go above and beyond to help you get to where you need to get to. Helping the doctor address your needs, helping the hospital move, they're often overworked. But they're very seldom nice. Do you know what I mean? But they're very kind. And I always think to myself, what would it be like if they were the opposite? What would it be if they specialized in empathy, but not being kind? They would come in and they'd be like, oh, it must feel so bad. Oh, I can only imagine what it feels like.

You are describing—

Oh, your heart having this attack. Oh, oh, I know how you must feel right now.

You're describing an AI friend.

That's exactly what it is.

You're describing an AI friend. And can I tell you? Very nice.

And can I tell you?

Not kind.

That's exactly what I think of when people will tell me, you know when people are like, the AI thinks, the AI feels, it can connect with you, it can share. No, no, no, no, no, no. It can pretend to connect. It can pretend. It can perform these acts of empathy because it can write them the way we perceive them, but it cannot do. And the doing fundamentally becomes the thing that separates us.

You know the annoying thing about kindness? The annoying thing about kindness is very often for the person being kind, for them it's easy or obvious. Like they're driven by cause or faith or purpose, or they have a talent, they're good at checking in on someone, or they lean into it when somebody's struggling. That general who said, "Go on," I don't think he perceived that as an act of courage. It's just something you do. And I think, again, that goes back to where I started, which is acknowledging kindness and saying thank you or receiving the gift when it is given is an incentive for them to keep doing it because I think very often they don't realize how kind they're being when they're being kind. Yes. Which plays to a lot of what we've heard while we're here, going right back to the beginning to Arthur Brooks, which is having that sense of purpose, having that sense of cause or faith, that's number one, is the thing that might help us be more kind because the actions that we're supposed to take for others then become obvious and easy.

And that's probably the thing that I lead.

Where the stick, the crook is coming out.

This is, I think it depends on what you do now.

I didn't know my mic is on.

It feels like we're about to sing. I'm not even going to lie. The way you walked out was beautiful. That was really beautiful. It was elegant and beautiful.

We could listen to you for hours and hours. Is it nice to tell you that your time is up or kind?

I think this is, you're being nice to us and kind to the audience.

I don't know.

That's exactly it.

We are actually— this is a good, a good opportunity for me to start by saying thank you to you both because you are truly brilliant. And to this whole community, we are shaped by all of you. There's too many people to name. And of course, Daniel and Ash, for this being your wonderful brainchild, for the remarkable Brilliant Minds board that steer us in the right direction. But really to the community as well. Juliette, Darnell, Mark, Gail, there's so many of you, you two as well. Each year you come back, you share your brains with us, you share your friends with us, and that's what truly makes this brilliant. And I know we got millions and millions of views last time that you both spoke together. I'm sure you will again. And thank you both so much for sharing your insight. I'm going to take everybody's time.

No, thank you everyone. And thank you, 10 years everyone. Congratulations.

Thank you, Anastasia. Thank you again.