Thinking About Thinking with Brené Brown and Adam Grant | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Every now and then, Brene Brown and Adam Grant and I like to get on a podcast and just talk Fight bicker. We do all those things. And so this is one of those times. And like every time I learn something about myself and I learn something about the world, this is a bit of optimism. I know it was not.

Yeah. I realized, wow. I grew up believing that the only good a body does is to move your head around.

It just gets your brain. It just gets your brain to where it needs to be to do your work. I think I'm trying to have a lot more grace for exhaustion in myself and other people.

Adam.

Well, I think my surprisingly recent realization, I should have known this a lot earlier, but I think I always thought, well, I need energy to take action. And I've realized that the causal arrow travels just as strongly in the other direction, that taking action creates energy. So sometimes for me, it's as simple as I'm kind of dragging. I know I always get a bit of a charge after a workout. What's going to happen if I do 10 pushups? Is that enough to simulate the adrenaline of being on stage?

Oh, that's a good one.

All right, so let's pause. Simon, drop and give us 10.

Yeah, I can't because I had surgery and I can't do push ups.

All right, jumping. Can you do one arm jumping jacking jacks?

Yeah, I can. I'll be right back. I'm gonna do. I'm gonna just do 10 jumping jacks. Stand by. I'm gonna be over here doing jumping jacks. Okay. You'll hear that.

Oh, my God. He's really doing him, y'. All.

Okay.

All right. Watch your form.

Oh, God. Now I'm exhausted.

So.

Okay, let's see how that goes. I'm realizing one of the things. There's two things I just learned in. In real time here that I think I'm going to adopt again. One is I raised it at the beginning, not in the middle. Because I think sometimes we drag, we get insecure, we offer, you know, shitty answers, brain's not working. We say, sorry, I got a bad night's sleep. And I kind of like the idea of starting a meeting and saying, hey, I'm all. I'm all in. I'm going to give you everything I've got. Just, please. To your point, Brene, just asking for just a little grace today. Bad night's sleep. Don't have to worry about me. Let's have the meeting. I think I like that. And I think the idea of asking for help which is. I'm not sure I can carry my. I'm not sure I can carry my full weight today. Can you help carry some of the. Some of the weight on my back? Which is kind of what we did here. And it was. It was spontaneous. And Adam, I think your thing of doing a little thing. I think. But all of these and having a little grace. This is very helpful. Thank you. I feeling quite a bit more energized as a result.

And I didn't. I don't. I didn't miss the fact that you said you just had. You had surgery which will keep you from the planks or push ups. But like I think.

It'S very interesting. I would have never thought about this if you would not have started there. So it's an interesting place to start. When I started doing a lot of kind of consulting and advising with leadership groups during COVID I told them that we were starting every meeting in our organization with a two word check in. And it was a very helpful way to see people as humans first during a really hard time. And I think one of the things I've grown very accustomed to and I didn't even think about how much I took it for granted it until right this second is that even when we have like really external meetings with lawyers who hate this question. Well, I'll say can we start with the two word check in? And so it's not surprising for me ever if I hear someone on my team say anxious and really tired or you know, vacation brain are my two words. We had a check in yesterday that it was one of my favorites. The co CEO or organization said duct tape and glitter like and I knew exactly like we're holding it together but barely. So I think those check ins in the beginning are kind of grace generators.

You know such. It's such a good strategy because what it allows for is it creates a safe space for and especially the person who's leading the meeting. Because they have to lead by example. Right. Whether.

Yeah.

Especially if they go first. It allows everyone to say how they actually feel. You can't get away with. Fine. The biggest. But he tells you can't get away with it. Starting out with a quick round the room check in. You get to say off my game. Little tired.

Yeah.

Or if you're the lawyer, time and money.

The first time I did it with lawyers, the first check in was two words. What's happening?

Yeah.

Yeah. Is that technically three words? Do they charge of the contraction?

Yeah, I'm sure only if it only if it was material.

But I mean, but I have to believe. And I think I remember we were really good at this during COVID And I think the practice has faltered. Covid was a slightly more human time. People welcomed it, you know, lawyers even, for sure.

And I think if for me, this is what I tell leaders all the time, they're scared to actually know often what people are feeling because they don't know what to do with it. And so if Adam says anxious and overwhelmed, then I just say, thanks, I appreciate you sharing that. That's a great thing to share. Simon, what's two words for you? And I just keep going. But then after the meeting, it gives me an opportunity to say, hey, can we jump on zoom for a second? I just wanted to check in about your check in. Yeah, how are you?

And the leader has no responsibility to fix it in the meeting. Just to hold space for it, just to allow it.

And. Yeah, and then my favorite follow up question, which I think resonates with a lot of folks that we work with, is when I talk to Adam, what I would ask is, what does support for me look like today?

Such a great question. You know, it's. I'm just reflecting on a meeting I was in a while back when the leader looked at somebody who looked a little bit down and said, you know, you just, you look really mad or upset and it's kind of bumming me out.

Oh my gosh.

Oh no. Did you. You were in the meeting.

I was in the meeting.

And play it out well.

Okay. So the leader happens to be an emotional intelligence expert.

No joke. No joke.

But, but forgot that only one facet of emotional intelligence involves reading other people's facial expressions. Then there's a whole set of questions about what's an appropriate and helpful way to respond to those. And just obviously it was kind of an all about me reaction. So what happened next was the person got defensive and he said, no, I'm not angry, but I am now. That was just my resting face and it completely derailed the meeting.

Oh, I love that. I mean, I hate that it was derailed, but that. I appreciate the irony so, so, so much. But it also raises this question of self awareness. I mean, that's it, you know, and, and I'm on this lately I've started sort of thinking about self awareness. That self awareness is actually, I don't know whether to call it a byproduct or result or it's come second that you. It's hard to practice self awareness without situational awareness. That Self awareness comes as a result of situational awareness, right? Because it's very. It's. For example, it's very hard to be aware that I talk too much in meetings, right? The only way I'm going to learn that level of self awareness that I keep interrupting everybody is by watching the room that I keep seeing. People go.

Like.

And I'm like, ah, I'm doing all the talking, right? So it's very hard to look internally because none of us are objective about ourselves. But it is much easier to look at people and read a room. To your point, Adam, this person, the emotional intelligence expert, may have awareness of their own emotional intelligence, but terrible at reading a room, which resulted in lack of self awareness.

This reminds me immediately of. Have you all ever gone through the Reflected Best Self exercise? We should actually try this for a future podcast. It's one of my favorite exercises. It's one of the rare ones that I love as much with undergrads as do with CEOs. It was created by Laura Morgan Roberts and Jane Dutton and their colleagues. And it was sort of, in some ways, it was an alternative to the Gallup approach of assuming that people know what their strengths are and saying, well, the real way to find out what you're great at is to look at yourself through the eyes of others who know you well. And so they created this exercise where they have you reach out to 15 to 20 people and they ask you to pick some, you know, some colleagues professionally, some family members, some friends, and collect stories from each one of them about a time when you were at your best. And then all these wonderful stories about you come in. But you have some work to do. You have to create a portrait of the common themes and patterns across them. And that's your reflected best self portrait. It's a portrait of your strengths, kind of looking in a mirror. And what's so interesting about it is in my experience doing it, people can't anticipate what their strengths are in other people's eyes. And so it turns out we have positive blind spots, not just negative ones, which is great, but also so much of then the work that comes after it is not just knowing your strengths and using them more. It's. Simon, Exactly. Your point is situational awareness. To say, okay, I have an awareness of now I have this capacity to do something, but I need to know when it's relevant and when it's not. How many times have you both interacted with leaders who are known for charisma, and then they dominate the conversation or they show up unprepared and it becomes a crutch. And they have self awareness but no situational awareness to say, well, maybe actually this is a moment when I need to dial down my charisma and be a great listener. And I just. I love the idea of suggesting that self awareness is useless and maybe even counterproductive without situation awareness.

Yeah. Maybe even inaccurate.

Yeah. You know what I'm thinking? I'll be so curious to know what y' all think about this, because I've been spending a ton of time collecting data for this kind of mental toughness thing. I'm trying to understand because I've been studying Dunning Kruger a lot. This whole idea that this kind of cognitive bias that people who have deep mastery rate themselves lower on something, and people who are not very good at things think they're much better. Just for the people listening. Imagine, you know, imagine that you've been taking guitar lessons for six weeks and you hear an amazing riff from, you know, Slash and you're like, oh, man, I can totally play that. Versus someone who's been playing for five years and listens to the riff and says, wow, there's six chord changes here. This is tough. I don't know that I would do it well in the beginning. So you have to have some set of knowledge, some level of knowledge to really be good at guessing how good you are at something. Is that a fair way to describe it, do you all think.

I just did a podcast with David Dunning where he corrected my description of the Dunning Kruger effect, which tell me you would hope. No, he just. I think what he was stressing was the famous finding is that the unskilled are unaware of how unskilled they are. Yeah, but experts can be overconfident or underconfident, and it depends on sort of how you measure their. Their accuracy and what the domain is. Oh, that. There's some nuance there. That. That's kind of interesting.

There's much more nuance than.

I think there's a gender component and there's a gender component.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

I mean, you know, she says with great confidence.

I do, I do. I do say with a great confidence.

What I think is interesting is, guess what the number one. I'm going to come back to this idea of situal awareness, but guess what the number one.

Predictor variable is for mental toughness. When I'm interviewing coaches, scouts, fighter pilot, trainers. I mean, people who are in kind of. I don't think mental toughness is what we think it is, first of all. But guess what? They guess what. They think the predictor is what they look for. Yeah. Like one of the first things that they look for. Because actually, the majority of people who need people to have some level of mental toughness don't believe they can grow it in people.

Yeah.

Because of this one predictor variable.

If I had to guess, I would say some form of humility.

It's humility.

So what I think is interesting is when I was looking at Dunning, Kruger and some of the studies that overlay that theory on top of their findings, it's very quick to say the solution to not overestimating your ability is humility. But I think a more accurate. I'm wondering. I'm curious if a more accurate antidote to overestimation or underestimation is a capacity for metacognition.

Define.

I can think about my own thinking.

Okay.

I can actually, like. I can be thinking about something and almost pull up and put a critical eye on how I'm thinking about something. And the reason I bring this up is I'm starting to believe that self awareness, anticipatory awareness, and situational awareness.

Belong in a pot of metacognition.

Mm.

It's the ability to almost think about the thinking. Think about the thinking. I don't know. What do y' all think?

I love that the. The humility thing makes total sense to me for a mental toughness. Because not only can I not do this alone is the bedfellow of I'll be there for them.

Yes.

Those things go together. Right. I don't think you can have one without the other. And the people who I find the most mentally tough, the people I know who, by any definition, they are tough, they are more afraid of letting down the comrades than they are of dying. And they are not afraid to ask for help. And I think it is the social animal in us that those who recognize that the human species did not survive as a lone hunter, lone gatherer, a lone liver, a loner, were not great white sharks. We're not built for that. I think those that have that kind of awareness, they are good examples of human beings, which is why they have toughness.

Who's the loneliness researcher who sadly recently died from Chicago? John Cacioppa.

Cacioppa.

Cacioppa. He used to say something like, the first time I heard, I saw your face, Simon. Something like, as a member of the social species, success is not the ability to go alone. Success is measured by being someone on who others can depend.

Oof. So Good. Adam, when you did that exercise of asking people, what did you learn about yourself?

So the first time I did it, I was. I was in my first year of grad school, So I was 21. And there was a part of me that rejected the exercise as it.

Because it started with the premise of going to other people and saying, tell me how great I am.

Yeah.

Now, of course, behind that was. Was the goal of trying to learn and use my strengths more often and more effectively. But it just wasn't the way that I wanted to approach some of the people who mattered to me. And so I actually flipped it, and I went to the people who I would have asked, and instead I wrote them each a story about a time when they were at their best. And what I learned about that was the reflection part.

Yes. Yes, exactly. No, but it was actually. It was one of. I spent a full week. I did this over the holiday break, and I wrote a few people every day and told them each a story about a time when I really appreciated a way that they stood out or showed up. And I was blown away by how surprised people were to hear that I appreciated them in general, but how surprised they were at the specificity of the story, that the thing that mattered to me, they didn't even remember, or they sort of took it for granted as, like, almost like, yeah, I hold the door for people. Like, it was. It was just sort of trivial. And I guess what it would. Reversing it taught me was we're. We're incredibly bad at expressing appreciation for the people who matter to us.

Okay.

Love that you did that. Now, the second time you did it, what did you learn about yourself?

Yeah, because what I'm getting over here is my refusal to be vulnerability, vulnerable. Barometers going off around, changing it around.

I recognize this is as uncomfortable as people telling. Giving speeches about you at a big birthday or at your wedding and.

Exactly.

But you know, which I don't disagree with. It's awful. But. So. Okay, the second time, did you.

I'll tell you. I'll tell you the second time, which is one of. One of. One of the things I learned about my strengths in action was a lot of people commented on my memory.

And it was never something I'd given any thought. I just assumed that the way that facts and sources stick in my brain, they stick in everyone's. And yeah, no, I now know this because I heard it a lot of times.

But by the way, Adam, whenever I quote a study, I talk about the department of they because they all Of.

A sudden, you know, Sinek 2024 did that very effectively at a recent conference. But they did a study, I think.

And the numbers are about this. But you'll get the point.

Yes, you will. Point was made. And.

It was actually really clarifying for me, though, because it led me to say, okay, that means that, you know, one. One way I'm. I'm actually contributing to people when I share knowledge is I'm giving them a source they can look up. Right. And I'm giving them some information they can follow the trail of. And so I want to be much more intentional about how I do that and how I use that to try to help other people. And the concrete. I think the concrete effect it had on me was I had to go and teach my first groups of MBA students, and I was really worried about building a relationship with them when I was basically their age. And it's hard. Yeah. And it was a really short class. And so I said, okay, well, I'm going to take that memory skill and I'm going to remember. I'm going to memorize all their names and come into the first day of class already knowing something about them. And it completely changed the dynamic of our interaction. You know, they were kind of surprised, and it was a way. It was a gesture for me to say, look, I might be really nervous in front of you all. I might not really be qualified to be here, but I put in a lot of effort to get to know you.

You.

And I want to keep building that relationship. And I never would have done that if I hadn't gotten this strength feedback.

How did it make you feel when you asked 15 people to tell you something about yourself and they came back with, you have a great memory?

Well, I mean, after I got over the awkwardness of asking them for the feedback, I also, by the way, I managed that one by asking them also to tell me about a time when I was at my worst, which very few people were willing to do.

You were just not having it, are you?

No, no. But.

But, you know, you know, I have to say, like, I have to say that the memory piece does not surprise me. It probably doesn't surprise Simon at all. I would not categorize it like that, nor would I categorize how what you took from it and applied to your first MBA course. What I would say is under memory, because you can. You could leverage memory for a lot of different stuff. You could go in and say, hey, I'm going to do this MBA class and I'm going to Razzle dazzle them with a lot of memorized facts. But I don't think it's for me. I don't know that it's memory as much as it is deep thoughtfulness. You are not going to take credit for work that's not yours.

Yes, yes, yes.

You are always going to attribute where things belong. And so I think if it was just memory, I think that's probably an easy handle to grab because that's how it expresses itself. But I experience you especially as a scholar. Yeah. As a deeply thoughtful person around other people's work and the application of other people's work.

Thank you.

And. And I'm gonna make it.

I'm trying really hard just to say thank you.

Yes, that's great. That's correct. Say thank you and I'll. I'm gonna double down on. On what Brene said. I said to come back to you with a skill doesn't help us understand who you are. Richard Nixon had a great memory. Right. Apparently his recall was astonishing. And I think what Brene said, which is, it's not your skill of memory, it's the humility, it's the rigor, and it's also the ethics. That was the thing. Highly ethical.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ethical.

That's the thing I wanted to say, which is you are unbelievably ethical in your approach to your work because you just think about the number of people that we work with that steal shit, hedge shit, bury shit. And, you know, some of it is blatantly unethical, some of it's a borderline unethical, and some of it they get away with. Unless you're in the note, you are none of those things.

And I think this is getting more and more uncomfortable.

I know, but that's.

Can it be over now?

Which is why you broke the rules in the first place.

So I did.

I think it's. So you're. You. The skill you have is memory. The character you have is highly ethical, highly rigorous and generous and thoughtful.

Yeah. You're just thoughtful. Because I think a lot of people who appropriate people's work, it's thoughtlessness or insecure. Yeah. But I. I think when it's not intentional, I think it's like it doesn't really matter. And, you know, it matters because that's what you spend.

Yeah.

Hours and weeks and years doing. So. Yeah. I'm with Simon. I second you, Simon.

Well, thank you. But I'm torn between two reactions here. One is, let's not make this about me. And let's Change the channel.

This is my podcast. I can make about whatever I want.

Okay, well, Simon.

Today'S episode is about Adam Grant. Renee, what do you think about Adam Grant?

I'm supporting Simon because he asked for some grace. So whatever he wants to do is where I'm going.

All right, there you go. I'm willing to accept that. I will say then that, you know, if you insist on turning the spotlight on me, like, I do want it to be balanced. Right. I don't.

And now it's time for a commercial break.

No, no, no.

Let me. Hi, everyone. Wondering how to get the best ROI from your company?

Hit you both.

Let me introduce you to.

You are the worst adopted siblings I've ever had. Worse.

Look, Phineas Ferb. Look, Phineas Ferb wants to have his time with you. And as Candace, I'm just saying.

You worry about the time space continuum, and I'll just. Yeah.

I'm looking forward to coming on your podcast, Adam. And you can make it about whatever you want.

Fair. But can I. No, I want to react.

No, no. I'm changing the channel. Moving on. Got other things to talk about.

Look, I got a whole agenda.

Got a whole agenda here. List of questions right here.

I was. I was just about to energize you. Really disappointing.

I'm energized.

So this is actually what we're actually talking about. The discomfort you have and the things that you learned is actually how we do 360s.

Which is we do 360s by. What you do is you have to write three things about three specific examples about yourself, where you believe you need the most work or where you have the biggest weaknesses. So three specific. Then you have to write three specific where you believe you've grown the most, or three strengths you have. And then you give it to everybody to read before the meeting. And then when we come for your 360, you have to read out loud your three weaknesses, and then anybody in the room can add to the list. And so you do the three negatives, the three weaknesses, and anybody can add to it. And then we do the three strengths. And this is to your point, Adam, to the study. And then anybody can add to it. And usually the tiers happen the second part. And the room gets to tell you how great you are, and you don't realize how much you are helping other people. And that becomes the aspiring stuff, which is, yes, you got to work on your weaknesses. Sure, we want to see growth, but at the same time, you get to realize how magic you are. And you get to build on that stuff too. And it's a very similar exercise and it's just as uncomfortable, but it's so rewarding.

Well, what I, what I think is really powerful about that is when you give your, your self analysis first, people are much more willing than to tell you what they really think. Constantinos Kutiferous UT guy now and I did. We studied this in the last few years and we found that when leaders criticized themselves out loud, it boosted psychological safety for their teams because they weren't just saying that they were open to feedback, they were actually proving they could handle the truth. And so often when I've, when I've had people do this, the rest of the room is surprised. Oh, they already knew that I'm not, you know, I'm not blindsiding them or attacking them. And also they can see what you're aware of, and then they feel extra responsibility to point out the things you're not.

Yeah, I think that's good and true. With a caveat, which is they, they have to. Especially if it's a weakness. That's something they're struggling with. Because I had a guy. No, he didn't. Wasn't on our team. He was like, so, you know, full disclosure, I'm an asshole. I'm like, that's not helping. Right? Like, he wasn't saying, look, I struggle with it. I've been called an asshole. I didn't think. I know I'm an asshole and I'm working on it. I'm not there yet. I'm struggling with it. That I would have found gracious. But he sort of just declared it like it is what it is and take it or leave it. And all that did was reinforce that he was an asshole and I didn't want to work with him. You know, there was no accountability in there.

I mean, I think that's the.

That'S just such a tap out.

Yeah, it's bullshit. It's missing the point. It's missing the point of growth.

It's like the people who claim to be brutally honest as an excuse for being brutal.

Right, exactly. You can be honest. You just don't have to be brutal. Just be honest.

We have a really different way of doing it, which I'll be curious to see what you think about what it taps into and what it doesn't. What it misses is we look at Back to Metacognition. We look at three or four situations that are similar where an individual handled things very well, and then in a similar situation where it was handled not well. What the consequences of handling it well were and what the consequences of not handling it well were in terms of putting people into fear, hurting people's feelings, stopping productive work, squashing innovation. And it's really, for me, it's been completely life changing because.

I guess an assumption that's built into that is some choice. But one thing, what it's helped me really realize when my peers will say, here's a situation where things got very difficult in a meeting and you absolutely made it worse. These are the specific behaviors you engaged in. You shut everyone down in the room, people got fearful, your intensity was overwhelming. And here's a very similar situation where things got equally difficult and you brought the room together within 10 minutes. And here's what you did and here's how it affected us. And I guess the thing that's been different about do I kind of developed this way of doing it because I found it was organically how I was working with leaders is understanding where the inflection point was in those choices, if they were choices, if they were conscious or unconscious choices, and that there are moments that we all get to as leaders where we are very vulnerable and what happens next really matters. And so, like, and I have learned such.

Hard things about myself because in every, well, in every one of the scenarios where they said this is what, this is the situation, it was escalating, you made it worse, you hurt people, you shut down everything, or this is what was happening, and we don't know, it was a masterclass in watching you.

You know, infuse the room with accountability and safety. There was just one variable, and that is when I get afraid, when I get scared, I get scary.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so when those things are. And so what I started to do is I was working with my coach. This is my disconnected body that just carries around my brain. I started learning kind of what's. What's happening in those seconds leading up to when I either make things worse or make things better.

As you're saying it, I'm going through this meta. I'm doing through the self evaluation myself as you're talking about it. And I'm thinking to myself, like, because I like the comparison. I'm like, when is I like this? When I'm good and when I'm bad. Right. And what's the, what's the. What's the delta which I find in the same situation.

Yeah.

And it gives you so much agency.

And I just, and I just had an insight. I just had an Epiphany, because I'm. And it's when I ask questions, right? Because I can ask questions, an ooze of curiosity that makes someone feel important and special. And I can also ask questions in a way that makes people feel cornered, backed against a wall, scared, and. And cross examined.

I can't even make eye contact with y'.

All.

And you just nailed it. Yes, it's. You know what they. You know what they. I came up with as my.

This is basically if you did a qualitative analysis on holding context steady and then my different behaviors. It was curiosity versus declaration, by the way.

I mean, the parallels are striking here. My version of that is, am I arguing to win or am I arguing to learn?

There you go. For me, the difference, I think it comes in two forms. One is when I genuinely feel dumb. And I like being dumb. I like not knowing. But when. But when somebody is talking about something, that is like completely my insecure weakness. Like, I'm not very good at numbers. I don't do finance. And so when somebody is telling me numbers and they're using all the financial jargon, like I had a meeting with a financial advisor, let's just say it didn't go well. And he didn't feel good at the end because he made me feel like a fucking idiot. And so I didn't understand what he was trying to tell me. And so I was asking questions legitimately to understand. Right? Legitimately to understand, but it didn't come out well. The other one is when somebody is lying to me and I'm asking questions to understand because the logic doesn't make sense. And so I'm going on a treasure hunting trip here. Like, I'm not going to flat out say, I think you're lying to me. These numbers don't make sense. I just start asking all the questions that reveal that there's no logic here until somebody says, okay, okay, I'm lying to you.

Those, to me are the. That second one doesn't happen that often, thank goodness, but it has happened.

But can I ask a question about the second one?

Yeah.

Okay. So first of all, it's really interesting because when we were doing a study on shame, one of the biggest things that came up as a barrier to asking for help from a financial planner, a banker, a trusted friend or relative is how so many people in that industry use shame as a proxy for power and make you feel stupid about your money. Like, I just fucking. That's just ridiculous. So I'm with you there. Let me ask you this. I'm just curious because I think this might be for me, but I want to know. You said the second one was, when you feel like you're. When you feel like you're being lied to.

How would you name the emotion that you feel when you think that's happening? So if you say to me. If you say to me, brene, that deliverable was super important and, you know, it was time sensitive. And I said, I mean, this is going to be very. It's gonna. This is gonna be much more blunt than nuanced way that people lie to us. But. And I say to you, oh, I emailed you. It must have not. I guess it didn't go through.

Yeah, it's a perfectly good example.

How do you feel?

I'm trying so hard not to throw out a menu of possible emotions.

Don't do it.

I gotta struggle. I gotta struggle. Um, so I. In that moment, I feel. I say alone. Alone is the feeling, but it's not in the sense of I'm by myself. It's the sense that I've lost my teammate.

Is it grief?

Confusion?

Disappointment?

It's closer to confusion.

I wondered if it was betrayed.

I wonder if it was betrayed too.

Oh, betrayed is quite good. But it happens. But it'll happen with strangers too, right? It'll happen with strangers. So, for example, I'm in a restaurant and it's empty, and I go, can I sit at that table, please? I'm sorry, you're two people, and that's a four top. Your restaurant's empty. Your restaurant's empty. You know, can I sit there, please? It's by the window. I told you, you're two and I can't sit you at a four top. How about this? If somebody comes in who's a four and you've run out of four tables, I promise I'll move without it. Like, I. Like, it becomes. Is that gonna work for you? You know, like, it becomes. Become a little bit difficult. And I think it's because I don't understand. I don't understand the logic. I guess it goes back to the other thing, which is. I don't understand. I don't understand the logic. It's kind of like the other example.

Is it that you don't understand or, like, you know, how we were. How we were saying all these things about how we experience Adam as thoughtful and generous and that's over now. I know, but, like, the one way I would experience you, Simon, is that you move through the world with such a deep hypothesis of generosity toward People. And you really do move through the world with a very generous assumption about people.

And I wonder if people are shitty like that for no reason.

It shakes your worldview.

I think maybe it does shake my worldview. There's probably. It's not a betrayal of trust or a betrayal of, you know, confidence. It's a betrayal of worldview. Like you're shattering my image of humanity, and you're doing it in a horrible way.

Yes, yes, yes.

Okay. Okay, I'm gonna do this. I can't resist.

I think there's a there there. I think.

I think there's a there there. I agree. Go ahead, Adam.

No, no, I just. I'm just thinking about.

Two psychologists, George Kelly and Jerry Clifton. Kelly would say that one of. I'm sorry, I can't resist. Kelly would say that one of your core personal constructs has been violated. That the generosity of people is one of the fundamental lenses through which you view the world.

Yeah.

And that's being challenged. Or Jer would say, like, your primal worldview is that, you know, people are decent and kind to each other. Like, how. How dare you not operate by that?

Yeah. But the opposite is also true. When. When there's genuine curiosity, genuine curiosity shows up. There's a lot of empathy. So when somebody does violate that, you know, when I'm in that curious mode and not feeling backed against the wall or some way, shape or form, you know, the end, the thought that goes through my mind is, holy cow, like, who's their leader? That's putting ex. Crazy pressure on them that they have no agency and they can't make their decisions themselves. You know, what. What's going on in their lives, you know.

But you're right. I think it. It really upsets me that somebody thinks that they live in the world by themselves. It violates my view of. It's my. Violates my worldview. As somebody said, you know, we live in the world.

Like, such a bummer sometimes.

Yeah. But I. I'm struck by. There's an exercise I do in class where I. I have students analyze what are the common patterns behind situations where they got angry. And consistently what comes out is that their values are under threat.

Yeah, for sure.

And I think there's so much to be learned then from. Okay, well, what are the values that have been threatened?

This is so good, because if you ask someone, what are your values? And going back to the conversation some moments ago about self awareness, I'm not 100% sure we actually know what our actual values are, though we think we Do. But to go to. I think this line of questioning, Adam, is genius, which is, when was the last time you got angry? Then I'll show you what your values are.

Exactly.

People are so shocked by their own values. And people want to be. People don't want them. They want to orphan. They want to orphan them.

Give an example of that. Give an example.

They want to orphan them.

Give an example. Like, I'm learning this value about my worldview. Like, I'm okay with it.

Okay. So what we do is we have a list and there's. There's like, I don't know, 150 things on there. We just reverse engineering. So we started. This was the research that started like 15, 18 years ago where we. We found that some of the most transformational leaders really had two values. They didn't have 20, they had two. And they had a lot of things were important to them, but there were really one or two where everything else was forged. And so they circled 15 or 20, and they're like, we're not limiting it. We're not limiting it. And I said.

Which two here are essential to you getting out of bed, to you functioning? And this is where they get super irate because.

They, the majority of them do not want to take family out.

And so, like, my two. My two values are courage and faith, right? And I've really struggled for many years about curiosity as a value. But what I realize is that I'm my bravest when I'm curious. And so that curiosity for me requires a lot of courage. And so we do this exercise. So they come up with these two, and then they operationalize them into behaviors. Then they have to find indicator, warning lights for misalignment from these. When have they stepped out of them? What do they feel in their bodies? When did they live into them? What did they feel in their bodies? And people are just.

Really frustrated because when you know your values and you understand what I don't think they mean anything. I feel the same way about corporate values. If they're not operationalized into observable behaviors, they're jack that they mean. They're just bullshit to me.

Just writing on the wall, right?

Yeah. And so once they see these values operationalized into behaviors.

They go through like a Kubler Ross grief thing where they're like.

Wow.

Have I been an asshole? Because I'm living outside of my values around this issue.

So good.

And I'm like, I don't know. What do you think? And they're like, yeah, I'm completely misaligned. Every, every indicator on the dash lot, the dashboard is going off, but I keep showing up the same way.

This is so good. And it goes back to the old thing, like, we don't learn anything when things go right. We learn things when things go wrong, right?

Oh, for sure.

It's like, you know, all of the, all the metaphors. You don't, you know, you can't judge a crew by how the ship performs. Performs in calm waters. You can only judge a crew by how I should performs in rough waters. Blah, blah, blah. You know, it's, it's the same thing here, which is things going wrong reveals. And I love this exercise of going through not when I nailed it, but when I got angry or frustrated. And the anger one is particularly interesting because I'm not a very angry person, but when I get angry, it's, it's, it hurts.

When I hear your story about, you know, it reminds me of Stephen Covey. Like, was this book written like 30 years ago? 7 Habits I don't even remember. But, like the guy who takes up two parking places or the person who's shitty on the train. And I remember that story he tells about.

Being on the train and someone saying, wow, your kids are really out of control here. And the guy kind of looked at the guy who was being critical and said, I'm sorry. We're on the way home from the hospital. My wife died a couple of hours ago, and I think my kids just don't even know how to show up right now. And I. It just reminds me so much of being in my values when people are not behaving as I need them to behave.

I'm just struck pranay. At first I thought you were gonna tell us a story about people wanting to change their values once they discovered they don't like them. And it's quite the opposite, right, that people are discovering their behaviors are not in line with their values.

Yes, that's exactly right. That's the variable that moves. And one of the most amazing processes that we use with teams is we have everyone write their name on a big post it, like one of the 11 by 17 post its, write their name, write their two values, and then everyone on the team fills out a sticky note with a story about when they saw that person living into their values and what it meant for them. And so, like, everybody in our office has a big sticky note. I mean, I have mine on the side of a file cabinet that has my name, my values, and what it looks like from other people when they see Me in them.

This, you know what? This is also speaking to you, which is when people make lists of like, what's important them in relationship. Like, what are the five values you want in your partner? Like, what are the five, you know, like what? Make a list of the things you want and if you make the list, you'll get them and blah, blah, blah, you know, And I've done these exercises and I'm a, I'm a professional at failed relationships, by the way. Like, I've taken the advice of people, like, write the 10 things that are non negotiable in your partner. Right? And I've done that. You can't. First of all, I'm not getting all 10. Nobody ever does. But I'm realizing from this exercise that what I need to do is I need to make that list. Two things.

Like, what are the non negotiables that if this person doesn't have these two things, then no go, because. And it goes to the, and it speaks directly to the executives that you're dealing with, which is we human beings are gifted with the remarkable ability to rationalize anything, you know.

Oh God, yeah.

I can rationalize how much I'm spending because I can tell you how much I'm saving. You know, my favorite one is people who sell their company. Like, they built good companies. They're like triple bottom line, take care of their people. They have a bazillion dollar exit and they sold it to, you know, some awful private equity company who's milking it, destroying it, breaking it, and undoing everything. And then I say to these CEOs, how can you say you wanted to build an impact company if you sold it to them? Why not take less money? Did you need 300 million? Maybe 250 was enough. Like you sold it to that company and they broke it. How can you call yourself an impact CEO? And they can rationalize the shit out of it to make themselves feel better for taking the money.

And I think when you get it down to those two things, whether it's who do I sell my company to, who do I date, how do I lead, who am I? I think I find this unbelievably powerful.

Just two things I think that makes so much sense. I mean, I think I'd be comfortable with three to five. Ten is a lot. But.

There'S a little bit of a paradox in here. At minimum, I think they have to be rank ordered so that you can figure out what your priorities are.

But the paradox is five in ranked order. Great. Do. Do 10 Do 5 doesn't matter. It's only 1 and 2 that matter.

Well, okay, so let's, let's say you have your rank order list of two or three or five or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The question is, what happens when you have to assess those relationships Specific. So we've, we've all met narcissists who are great to, you know, to their distant interactions, their acquaintances, but then horrible to the people who are close to them. And we also know people who might show up as kind in relationships with us but treat others really poorly.

Yeah.

Like, do. Do they have to embody your values in all relationships or is it enough for them to be that way with you?

No. Yeah, no, I don't. I don't see it that way. Yeah, I don't see it that way because.

I want to know their character.

Yeah, yeah, I think there's a. I.

Want to know that because we've all experienced it. We've all been treated nicely because we're the keynote speaker or the blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, yeah.

Right. And then you see the way they treat their staff. I don't know. Right. Like, I want, you know, what did Dave Barry say? You know, did you notice that? Did you notice that? I remembered who said it.

Keep going.

Credit is due. Like Dave Barry said, nice people who aren't nice to the waiter aren't nice people.

Oh, God. Yeah. It's the first thing I taught my kids about dating. If you see someone mistreat someone in the service industry, run for your life. So to me, the consistent application of values or the consistent values alignment is character.

Yep.

Yes, I agree with that. I think where it gets more complex, the hierarchical part of that is easy. Right. If they're treating people differently based on status or power, like, no, thanks. Yeah, I think where it gets more complicated is when it starts to, I guess, spill into. In group out. Group dynamics, are they kinder to people that they feel more comfortable with or, you know, who have something in common with them? And then do we have to care about how they treat people that they, you know, they might not have any kind of connection with? That's where I struggle more.

I've been dealing with this recently and whether this is right or wrong, this is where I'm at, which is I actually adjust my standard with someone's age.

So somebody who's in their 20s and, you know, we've. When we were younger, we all said stupid things to fit in, you know, made it, puffed ourselves up, made, were unnecessarily mean about Somebody who wasn't there. We've all done it because we wanted to fit in and feel included. Right. By your 30s, like, you should be learning some of that stuff, but maybe some of those insecurities creep back in 40s, you, you're entitled to like a mistake or two, but when you start getting older, you should be aware enough that if you're feeling insecure, just shut up.

Right.

Like, and I now hold older people to a higher standard because they've had enough life experience that they should know better. Younger people, I show a little more grace.

So this, this gets really complicated in the. Let's, let's take a specific example.

Your kids are friends with somebody who's great to them, but maybe not to other kids.

No.

Do you tolerate that?

No. And I don't, I don't have an age ranking. I have a, I have a full application, all times, all groups, all people.

Doesn't mean I excuse the behavior. It doesn't mean I excuse the behavior. But I allow for the fact that there's a learning curve happening and that.

I mean, for example, the kids, the.

Kids who are nice to your kids but not nice to other kids, you'd find a way to have that conversation to teach the kids. That's, that's the grace you're offering.

Right? And I think the thing is that like, okay, let's take this wider and let's take this.

I'm not having a conversation with a 50 year old. Like, you should know better, you know.

And I think.

I would never want to be dismissed by someone I'm in a relationship with. A colleague, a partner, a child, a friend, because I have operated or behaved outside of my values. And so I. It's not like one step outside your values and you're dead to me because I'm outside my values. I mean, I struggle with it every day sometimes, but I think if I've got a child and they've got a friend who's very kind to them but is unkind to other people.

That'S going to be problematic. And we're going to talk about the ramifications of that and we're going to talk about.

What that means, how that makes them feel, what happens when they observe that and not saying anything is outside of their own values. And so I think it's. I don't think values are situational. I think the expression of behaviors are situational.

Oh, very good. Good distinction, Good distinction.

Very well put.

Very well put.

And I'll tell you one thing, Adam, that I think about A lot, too, to your question. And this is like a hard thing. But very early on, I started thinking about compliance versus commitment with my kids. So my youngest, Distress, graduated from high school. He's off to Colle. My daughter is 25, getting her PhD. They're spreading their wings.

In the early days of parenting, it's all about compliance. You don't go in the street because I said you don't go in the street. You don't watch. You don't play these violent video games. But at some point, if there's not deep discussions about values and friends and things, when it's time for compliance to turn into commitment because you're not controlling that, you will really struggle. And I think the same is true. I hate to use parenting because in work it infantilizes some, but I think the same is true when you're building a team. If you have to have a team operating within a set of values as compliance.

You'Re just dead.

Which is ironic that there's entire departments in certain companies called compliance. Right, right. I mean, as opposed to ethics.

Yeah.

Right.

Value. Yeah.

They don't have ethical departments. They have compliance departments. The. But I think you're. This is a great distinction about the values versus the behavior because the behaviors are excusable and we all step out, we all step outside our values. And. But the. And I guess what I'm getting at is the character where the people who perhaps I show a little less grace to. Not that I humiliate or shame. I don't. It's just sort of. You sort of. I'm just. You just sort of take note in your mind. It's not a behavior that I'm reacted to. It's a clue about character. And I say clue because one example is not enough.

I agree.

Yeah. This reminds me of. Have either of you ever read the Samuel and Pearl Oliner study of Holocaust rescuers and bystanders?

No.

Amazing project by sociologists. So basically, they got a big sample, hundreds of Christians who rescued Jews during the Holocaust and compared them to their own neighbors who did nothing. And they wanted to know what. What made these people into, you know, humans of such extraordinary character that they were willing to risk their lives for somebody who didn't share their fundamental beliefs. And there were a lot of interesting findings in the study, but one that has always stuck with me was the rescuers, compared to the bystanders, were less likely to be punished with consequences and more likely to be punished with explanations. And I think this goes to the heart of Brene. Your Distinction between compliance and commitment as kids.

Explain.

Yeah, let me. Let me explain a little more clearly. So growing up, the people who went on to become rescuers, when they did something wrong, their parents didn't punish them.

They explained to them why the behavior was wrong. So then instead of just learning to comply with what authority figures did, they actually internalized a set of values and principles that they carried with them.

Oh, you just. Yeah, me too. That's compliance versus commitment in a nutshell.

Wow. And this is now nature versus nurture too, which is. Oh, and I remember. I remember a study that I read that couldn't tell you who did it at all.

Tell us.

Thank you. I study. When I was writing Leaders Eat Last, I was. I became very interested in. I read a whole bunch of parenting stuff. And one of the things I remember reading is that.

I think they talked about values, but our values don't come from our parents. You know, there's so many influences in our lives. And like two kids who are brought up the same way, you know, one goes one way, one goes the other. And apparently across cultures universally, there's only two things everyone always gets from their parents, which is how you treat yourself and how you treat others.

That's interesting.

And. And Adam, this would speak to that. Which is when you make a bad choice and. And you get an explanation that you're learning to treat others in a certain way and yourself and yourself with that versus getting punished, you're going to treat yourself or others in a different way. So good. This goes to Leadership 101 as well. Let me tell you why we don't do that around here, you know, and why. Why what? Why the decision you made. I want to explain to you what. What's important about that decision, like why. Why we don't do it that way. So good.

It's so good. And I would imagine. I mean, I don't know if they got to this. Adam, did they? I would imagine. When it was consequence versus punishment. I would imagine. This is so interesting. I would imagine that consequence would be a lot of lessons in empathy about how someone's actions affected other people.

Exactly.

Where punishment is more shame driven.

Yes.

It's. I mean, literally, I think they were. They were doing your research. They. Yeah, the. The parents explained the consequences. Like, here's why. You know, stealing your sibling's toy hurts them.

Yeah.

Imagine how you would feel if someone. Someone stole your toy.

Right.

It's the whole thing. And this is instead of shame, they get guilt. Like, I did a bad thing and I need to now prevent it moving forward.

What is the one.

Emotion or affect that shame corrodes Empathy. And shame corrodes empathy. Empathy cannot survive shame and shame. Shame is so self focused.

And shame. You start to believe you're the only person in the world. Yes, right. Where. Because it's about preventing me from getting in trouble, which is a very selfish disposition.

Versus recognizing that I live in the world and my words and my actions have impact in the lives of others.

Yeah. Self focus versus other focused. Yeah.

The self versus the other focus. But I think it works the other way as well. Which is it's not just punishment, it's also the reward. And you look at a corporate environment, look at Boeing. Oh God, let's just look at Boeing for five minutes. What a clusterfuck that is.

Right.

And incentivized to move fast and hit numbers. Punished for slowing down the system. But it's so it's not just the punishment, it's also the incentive. Right. We're incentivizing the wrong behaviors and we're. And we're disincentivizing the pro social behaviors. And it all goes back. It all goes back to selfish versus selfless, which is do you live in the world by yourself or do you live in the world with others? And I'm going to parent you to recognize that you are one of many versus parenting you. That you are just one. You follow the rules because it's just you that needs to follow the rules.

And what that leads you to is taking actions to protect your reputation as opposed to improve your character.

That's it.

Or improve your behavior. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's so interesting too because y' all talked about narcissism and that's why like I think I don't remember what book it was in. It wasn't Atlas of the Heart. I think it was Dare to lead. I said, I think this is my own narcissistic.

That was written by Brene Brown. That one I know.

Thank you. This is all matters, Simon. Just get mine. Right.

But I think it was a dare to lead that I said to me, narcissism is the shame based fear of being ordinary. And it's so funny because people think that narcissists are, you know, have these huge egos and it's about grandiosity. But I do know, not from my research, but from other people's research that there's no kind of continuum on the personality disorder continuum that's more shame fueled than narcissism.

Yeah.

People are so afraid of being Ordinary. I do, I do think there's something very shame based, very self focused, very. Just scared to death on the inside of that. Yeah.

Yeah.

I wonder how. So I think about narcissism much less, you know, in terms of the personality disorder and much more in terms of like normal personality. We all know some people who are more narcissistic than others.

A set of collection of behaviors.

Yeah, exactly. Like a tendency to have an inflated ego and be entitled. And I think this makes me wonder, like, is this part of the difference between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism? There's those two flavors that often come out where the grandiose is the larger than life. I'm more important than everyone else, and the vulnerable is the, like, I'm afraid of, you know, of any criticism. I wonder if these are different strategies for managing shame that the grandiose narcissists build themselves up and the vulnerable narcissists retreat, oh, 100%.

And by the way, this is what I think. One of the things that makes human beings so fascinating. You know, I'll make it a more base example. That just reminds me of college, right? Which is somebody who's very, very social, excessively social. Could be because they're so insecure, they have to be really, really social. Or they're so secure they can be really, really social. Or somebody who never goes out, they stay at home the whole time. It's because they're so insecure they can't go out, or they're so secure they can't. They don't want to go out. And I love the fact that the.

Behaviors can be the same, but the opposite motivations.

Fascinating.

And for me, part of the fascination of, like the anthropologist in me has always been to try to find the subtleties and nuances that I can spot the difference because they exist.

Well, we, we had this over the weekend. Simon, you. You actually displayed this in Stockholm. Brene. I was, I was noticing two conferences in a row. Simon is the first person to leave the party to go to bed. And at first I was like, simon, are you more. I thought I was more introverted than you are. You know, are you just getting overwhelmed early? Are you sleep obsessed? And then at some point it hit me, you're secure enough that you're not staying around out of fomo.

I there a lot of people with loud noise is about the worst thing in the world.

Oh, God.

But it's not. I feel that way too. But it's not just that. You also have the confidence to walk away and say, look, you know, I don't, I don't need to stick around in the hopes that I'll make a connection in the next hour.

Yeah, I, I, that's true. I, that's true.

I've been around you. That's true of you.

I mean, Yeah, I.

You know, I. It's kind of a life. No, no, no. This. It's just my. It's sort of a life philosophy. Which is, which is things will come my way because I'll randomly find myself in places and I will miss things because I didn't show up. And I have to be okay with both.

Yeah.

And because I understand that if I, If I try and be everywhere, it actually won't actually necessarily dramatically increase the odds of me getting more. And so I'm just okay that, you know, it's kind of like we always say. We say this with our friends all the time. Like, you know, let me buy dinner. No, no, let me buy it. Don't worry. It'll leave it out in the wash. Right. Like, over the course of time, it's like, if I flip a coin 100 times, it's going to be 50. 50.

Right.

And so my attitude is, like, in a vacuum.

Yeah.

It's probably lopsided, but over the course of my life, it'll even out. You know, win some, lose some. So I. Yeah. I've never met a party I couldn't leave too early.

God. Same.

Adam. So I. As an introvert, if you're.

Fine.

Because if you're, if you're actually uncomfortable with the, the crowd and the noise, what, what is the motivation that you choose to stay?

Well, I, I really like people. Even when I get.

So you're not an introvert as much?

No, I am. I just, I just at some point get overstimulated by the noise and interaction. But I, I think that I don't like people.

We know.

Secret is out.

Simon.

Simon. Well, I'm going to talk about you in the third person, Renee. I think Simon does like people less than you, and I do.

I'd be shocked if he liked people less than me. I'm just going to be. I'm going to be. I mean, humanity. I love people in general.

I like persons. I like.

I mean, let me just say. Let me just say this. Y'. All, the difference between me and y' all is I will not even be at the party. Like, contractually, there is an Every contract I sign. There is no dinner, there is no meat.

Same.

There is nothing.

No, no, no.

Not. Do Y' all go to those?

No, by the, by the way.

No, I know what we're talking about.

I've never been to an after party because I don't understand the point of them. I went to the damn party. Why do I have to go to the party after the party?

I will see your. Your party avoidance and raise you. By the time I was a senior in college, I convinced my roommates that we should have board game gatherings, which were called people overs because I didn't want to have to leave our room or go to a party.

I was in college and my suite mates would throw parties. And the rule was every. Every suite mate had to contribute money to pay for the party. You know, 50 bucks each or whatever. I would pay my 50 bucks and then go out. I didn't go to the parties that I paid for.

This is why y' all are my people. I mean, this is really why you're my people. I mean, I just. Yeah, for me, it's. It's very, very, very difficult. But I wanted to go back to one thought because I wrote it down. I just wanted to say something that may be controversial, but I think it's an important thing to add. And it goes back to looking for motivation.

And it goes back to the grandiose narcissism and the vulnerable gar. Narcissism. I would argue that no matter the behavior.

Self focusedness, as someone who's super self focused will be, no matter how it's expressed, is equally painful to other people. I think it's very dangerous to buy into the idea that a grandiose behaving person that has narcissistic tendencies is going to be more hurtful than someone who has those tendencies and is vulnerable. It just shows up different. But in the end, when you're self focused.

There'S going to be some empathic fails that are going to be hurtful to somebody.

Yes. And we also have to consider the audience. Right. Which is. I agree with you that there is impact from both behaviors, but some people are more resilient to one of those behaviors and some are more resilient to the other kind of behavior.

I don't agree.

So, like, I, like, if somebody is grandiose, I may say, meh, whatever. They're just grandstanding and I'm not hurt or affected. But if somebody's despondent, it's like my own insecurities, like, oh my God, did I say something wrong? So where somebody else might be the opposite. And it goes back to what we were saying before. Which is the motivations and behaviors may be different. So how I respond.

May look the same but be differently motivated.

Yes, I think. Yes.

If the whole point we're making is that we live in the world, we can't just consider the person who's behaving. We also have to consider the person on the receiving end of the behavior.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think when I see grandiosity, I mean, like Trump is a great example in my opinion. Are we allowed to say that?

I keep it apolitical, but it's an example of grandiosity. It's fine.

Yeah.

You can see that coming.

And some people find it offensive and some people find it seductive.

Right.

It doesn't make one more right than the other.

No, but I think when the behavior outwardly, I don't know, I just find in leadership.

With leaders I've worked with, that vulnerable, quiet self focus.

Can be absolutely brutal on direct reports.

Agree.

Because no one sees it.

But it's there.

To your point, because it's not grandiose. It's more silent. It's a poison. You know, more than anything. You didn't realize you were drinking it until later. But I still think that we may be less practiced at dealing with it because it's harder to see.

But I think that's true. I think that's true.

Yeah.

But I will say I'll do another sort of. Yes. And which is.

When it comes to leadership, I don't want any narcissism. I agree with you, Brene. This is an overused word, but any kind of self absorption is toxic. If I had to choose, I would rather coach the grandiose narcissist than the vulnerable one. You don't get Steve Jobs founding Apple from vulnerable narcissism. It's grandiose.

Yeah.

And I think there's. Oh, there's. There's a great.

Rubenzer and Fashing Bauer study of presidential personality showing that grandiose.

I'm sorry, studies. I can't even remember the names.

It's in the job description.

Why can't scientists be named like Smith, John Smith?

That would be helpful. Anyway, let me get to the substance, which is when they looked at presidential personality ratings from historians and political scientists and then predicted greatness as rated by experts, they found that there were that basically that vulnerable narcissists didn't succeed and that grandiose narcissism was a double edged sword that, you know, sometimes it led to extraordinary public persuasiveness and other times, you know, it led to overconfidence.

Churchill.

Yeah, both, exactly. Depending on what period of time you look at. But what's so interesting to me is there's another researcher, Brad Owens, who has studied what he calls humble narcissism. And I don't like. I don't like the term, but he finds that narcissism and humility can coexist, that you can have the grandiose belief I'm capable of doing great things, and also the humility to, you know, to know. To know your weaknesses. And I think that so much of what I've tried to do with leaders historically is I've tried to dial down their grandiose narcissism. And what I actually need to do is raise up their humility. Like, I don't want to convince Steve Jobs that he lacks vision. I want to convince him that. That he's terrible at interacting with other people.

But first, let's define humility, right? And my favorite definition of humility is from Bob Gaylor, who is the fifth chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force. And he said, don't confuse humility with meekness. Humility is being open to the ideas of others. And since I've embraced that definition, I have no problem with people with huge egos and all these people in big power, they have to have big egos. You couldn't get there without it. You have to believe you're good enough. Right? But the. But the ones that I find impressive are the ones that say, hey, I have an idea. And they go, let's hear it. And those are the ones that I. And so if you're talking about a humble narcissist, it's not that they're necessarily aware of their weaknesses. I think they have plenty of blind spots and all of that stuff. It's that they reckon. And it goes. It goes back to this. This theme that. That keeps coming up, which is they live in the world. They recognize that there are other people, that their behaviors impact other people, and that other people are included in all the decisions they make, and that they will benefit from the ideas of other people, and they will actually, you know, look better if they're open to the ideas of others.

So I think that gets us part of the way there. I want to go further, though, and say that the right combination of humility and confidence is being secure enough in your strengths to see your weaknesses. And I think it's at its core, recognizing your own limitations and shortcomings that makes you the most open to other people's ideas.

So, and I think you and I have talked about this. I can't remember, which is I actually don't believe in strengths and weaknesses. I believe in characteristics and attributes. I have certain characteristics and attributes and in certain contexts those things display as weaknesses. And in certain contexts those things display as strengths. And so the trick is not like that work on my weaknesses and build on my strengths. It's to put myself in situations where my characteristics are more likely to reveal themselves as strengths and put other people in the other situations where they will thrive and do great, because I will not.

Simon is demonstrating metacognition right now.

I was going to say I'm going to take this to the very full.

Circle for where we started. Renee, why don't you wrap it up for us?

Well, I'm going to take it back to the beginning and I'm going to say I actually believe that humility is a function of metacognition.

I do. And I think it's actually humility is a property of confidence. I don't think you can be a confidence, confident person without some humility. So I don't know what the temporal relationship is, but I actually think there is a level of metacognition.

That'S required for humility, which takes us very back to the very beginning of Simon's first. Like when we first got on about self awareness. I think if you can't think about how you're thinking, I, I think we're. It's hard.

I think we're making the standard too high that you have to be able to think about what you're thinking about. Right. And I think that's.

No, no.

I would be okay with. I would, I would be okay with. I would be okay with that. You just know that you're not the only person in the world and it goes back to that parenting thing that, that you will have humility. It goes back to the high performing teams, you know, the ones that have care for each other. Right. That, that, that if you just can recognize that there are other people in the world and everything you say and everything you do will impact those people in the world, positively or negatively, you will have humility.

I agree with that. I think you'll need metacognition for that.

Hey, Phineas. Adam, what do you think? Are you on voting for metacognition or voting against?

I'm with Pranay on this one, Simon. I think that maybe, maybe thinking about thinking it is. I think it's great shorthand for metacognition, but maybe a different way to say it is you need to have the wisdom to exercise judgment about your own judgment.

Yes.

I just think you need to recognize that there's other people in the world.

And I think in order to do that, you really have to have judgment about your thinking.

Let's just ignore that there's a Simon and carry on with this podcast.

Okay.

And then.

Then the episodes end suddenly. By the way, it's done.

You seem really exhausted. You have no energy right now.

You should think about that.

Did you realize. Did you realize how screwed the two of you are?

Do you realize how the screwed the two of you are? Because the next time I'm exhausted and I got to show up, I'm gonna be like, can you just hold on? I have just to call Adam Brene for an hour and a half, and then I'll be. I'll be on and I'll be on fire.

I'm down for it. Okay. Bye, guys.

Goodbye. See you later.