When Your 'Flaw' Becomes Your Edge with Comedian Hasan Minhaj | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Stand up comedy. In the pecking order, you know, you got your actors and your musicians, you have your magicians and your clowns. Stand up comedy. Somewhere between magicians and clowns. That's where I kind of place us.

Between clown and magician. So somewhere between David Copperfield and Bozo.

There'S a comedian is Hasamanash. Yes. Every single one of us has a teacher or a coach or someone who saw something in us when we were younger and took us under their wing. We are who we are in part because of that person. Now imagine if that discovery, that talent that you learned from that person can actually create an entire career. That's exactly what happened with Hasan Minhaj. He went on to have a wildly successful career in comedy, including being on the Daily show and host of the Patriot Act. But it was actually his teacher back in high school who saw something in him. And imagine, just imagine if all of us could find that thing and run with it. This is a bit of optimism. Oh, and a quick aside. My apologies in advance to Todd.

I'm always curious about people's origin stories, like.

How you found yourself on a path of comedian.

Okay, what is, what is my X Men origin story? Okay, I. I grew up in Davis, California, where. Which is a smallish town next to Sacramento, California, not to brag. And Northern California is kind of the, I would say the forgotten area of California that I represent. Very hard. But I went to a public school. I went to Davis Senior High School, and I was a energetic but talkative student that had trouble focusing and paying attention and completing tasks and arriving to things that I needed to get to on time, which I still struggle with to this day. But I had a teacher. Her name is Ms. Takeuchi, and she was the computers teacher. I mean, this is dating me. We literally had a thing called computers class where you would take Mavis Beacon typing and you would learn C. Sure, of course.

But at the time, I know, it just sounds so insane right now with like everything that's happening in AI.

I know.

So anyways, I was a bit of a blabbermouth. I would get into trouble at School and Ms. Takeuchi ended up putting me into a thing called speech and debate and forensics. And I did very good at it. I placed at it. And she was one of the first people in my life that kind of pulled me to the side and she said, hey, you have this. You have this gift. You have the gift of gab. It's certainly not helpful in class. It's quite annoying. But there is a place for you to do it here. And you should, you should really do it more. And I just thought it was a cool kind of high school activity. I thought it was just a cool way to, to wear oversized suits and go on speech and debate tournaments and, you know, go to hotels and look at other cute people that went to the other school and try to get into shenanigans. As a high school student. It was a very nerdy kind of fun thing to do.

Yeah.

And then when I got to college, and funny enough, my freshman year of college was the birth of Napster, Limewire Kaza. This was like a huge, revolutionary breakthrough where kids that had T3 modem lines, which every kind of public university and private university had when you moved into the dorms, were able to download terabytes of, of media. This is before Netflix, before hbo. You could just download every episode of Seinfeld, every season of south park, all three of the Godfathers. A buddy of mine downloaded a bunch of standup comedy specials. I had no idea what those things were. And one day I went to go visit my buddy's roommate and he was watching Chris Rock's Never Scared. So the year is 2004 and my buddy is just cracking up. His roommate is just like cackling. And I'm watching Chris Rock perform in this really beautiful kind of purple velvet suit. And he's at Constitution hall in Washington D.C. and he is talking about.

Money.

Politics, sex, religion, relationships, pretty much all the third rail issues you are not allowed to talk about in class or at the time I was working at Office Max, you're certainly not allowed to talk about that at Office Max while you're on the clock. And I just, I had this kind of aha moment where I go, oh, that's funny. Speech and debate. Like he's doing speech and debate, but he's just doing funny forensics. And as soon as I had that kind of click moment, the, the rest was history. I started Googling how to become a stand up comedian and just. And, yeah, and, and, and the story was written from there. But that, but that was kind of my impetus moment. I, I had a teacher that identified a gift within me that was seen as a nuisance. And then I had a friend that through destiny, kismet or luck was, was able to show me something that merged both my natural inclinations slash talents with a technological innovation.

My path is almost identical and it's a little bit of sliding doors, right? Which is here I am a hyperactive kid with adhd. I'm literally bouncing my Foot, while I'm talking to you, can't finish things. Like, missed every deadline that was ever given to me. Show up late to everything. Forget all of the traditional ADHD things, like you.

All of my friends in high school, my friends had a subject. I was always intimidated. Like, this one was really good at history, and this one was really good at math, and this one was really good at English, and this one was a really good writer. And I was kind of, like, average at pretty much everything, you know? And I went through this stress, like, what's my subject? And I realized for survival reasons, because I still. I couldn't read books. But I had to pass school. I got really good at asking questions, really good at listening, and really good of explaining things back to teachers saying, do I have this right? Because I had to learn from talking, otherwise I was going to fail. And so I realized my mouth was my talent. Like, my speaking was my talent, right? And I thought, oh, I should be a lawyer.

Okay. And you ended up going to law school. You did that, right?

I went to law school in England. I finished half a law degree. I dropped out. And I happened to be dating a girl at the time. You talk about kismet, luck, whatever it is. I happened to be dating a girl at the time who is studying at Syracuse University in the school of advertising. And she says to me, what about advertising? You can talk. You like the rigor of performing an argument from law. Why don't you go do that creatively? And that's what I used to say in my job interviews. When they said, why do you want to be in advertising? They would look at my resume and they'd be like, why do you want to be in advertising? I'd be like, it's the exact same as law. I have to make an argument to a group of people as to why they should or shouldn't convict, why they should or shouldn't want this product. And as it's all the same thing, you know, it's. I used to call it the big sell, right? At 20, whatever. I was 22, 23 years old. And it's just by these strange circumstances of. You have these. Somebody recognizes a talent, you don't know how to apply that talent, but you kind of go in whatever direction is available. Something or someone shows up that sort of slaps you in a direction that you're like, huh? And thus a career is born. And very, very similar skill sets, Very, very similar origin story. Completely different directions.

Yeah. Do you work with young people? Do you work with, like, what are the youngest age group of people that you work with in your travels around the world?

The youngest people I've done a Y discovery with were 16.

Wow, that's amazing.

But having said that, when my nephew was in grade school, how old was he? He was probably.

Nine. I went and gave a talk to seven, eight and nine year olds about leadership.

And these kids were smarter than any adults I've ever talked to. I said, who can tell me what a leader is? And like a whole bunch of hands. Right. You know, they're kids.

Yeah.

And I, you know, call on one girl, you know, and she says leader is somebody who looks after the people around them. I'm like, correct, you know?

Yeah.

And I'm like, well, what makes a.

Good leader that you do that?

And they're like, make sure that you're a good leader is one that makes their friends make sure that they're there for them and feel seen and heard. I'm just like.

Kids are smarter and then we get dumb and I have to go teach people to be like a seven year old. But anyway, that's the youngest.

Well, I was about, I was about to tell you that, which is I have two children, I have a seven year old daughter, I have a five year old son. And one of the things that I, I don't know if you, if you're a believer in this, if you're a believer in kind of destiny or kismet or. I certainly struggle with this at times, which is regret. I'll go through something in a personal relationship or specifically with a familial relationship. If you've ever dated someone and you've visited their family and then you find out how normal they are and then you just go, oh my God. It didn't have to be like this.gov when you look at your own family.

So I've had these moments where I was like, oh man, the way I grew up. Or it didn't, it didn't have to be this way. If only someone could have gotten to me earlier. What if I had met Ms. Takeuchi in the seventh grade? Maybe I could have started the performing arts as a 12 year old or a 13 year old. And so I look at my children, I go to their class and I try to be a parent that's involved with their kind of after school activities and just the things that they like to do. But I try to the best of my ability to really see them. So when they do something that is brave or courageous or whoa, like you're, you're four years old and you just went on the, not the high dive but the middle dive. That's kind of crazy because seven year olds do that and you're four. That's pretty brave. You know you're brave, right. Like I try to do these things that I wish I had at a younger age which is, hey, I see something in you there, there is, there are these innate qualities within you then you should be aware of them, that you are capable and intelligent or courageous or brave. But there's something else that you were talking about when you were talking about speaking to young kids which is really beautiful, is that that sort of Bluetooth channel is open. They're very open to being airdropped information.

Yeah.

They haven't been guilt tripped into the bureaucracy of adulthood. One of the things that's really beautiful about children is if you go to a group of kids and you, you ask them who wants to be the leader? Someone will vocally raise their. Actually several kids might raise their hands.

So.

So a lot of things are happening. Like number one, there's massive accountability, there's face driven accountability. Like me. Yeah, Pick me is my full government name. Like Pick me.

And here's my Social Security number. I really believe this. I should be the leader in line. And then also you know, number three, the risk to put yourself out there. And those, the, the time that I spent as I was climbing the ranks of stand up comedy and I had day jobs where I'd have to go work in an office. All of those things of whose fault is it? Yeah, it was hot potato. Who's in charge. How hot potato? Blame responsibility. All of these things become obfuscated through slack imessage, email, cell phones and bureaucracy. Whereas I've seen more courage in my daughter's first grade class of like I'm the one who let the team down and I am sorry, you know, or like I'm the one that will lead the team to victory. Here I am. And I just, I think, I don't know what it is about adulthood that teaches us that but you know.

It sucks. Adulthood and modern work have become these condoms for conflict where like I don't want to be blamed, I don't want to put myself out there. I think I just see so much. I see the opposite with kids. There's so much part of it.

A part of it is the neocortex. Like the part of our brain that is underdeveloped until I think 13 is what Piaget said, right. Fully developed.

Like I don't, I don't know.

I don't know either. But.

You know, always confident, sometimes wrong.

But the point is, is like the irrational Homo sapien brains, they're not fully developed. In other words, we don't have full capacity for rational analysis until. Until, you know, our teenage years. And so when kids don't have that, they're operating in that beautiful mammalian state. That beautiful sort of. So, because you hear entrepreneurs or folks like you, like, you know, how did it work? When I trusted my gut, it worked. When I took too much advice from other people and doubted myself, it always didn't work. Right, right. And what kids are doing is they're trusting their guts because that's all they have because they can't think it through. They. They don't weigh pros and cons. It doesn't exist. They don't consider the humiliation that they'll suffer. They don't care. They wear. They're just a spider man to go to school. What humiliation? Yeah, you know.

Yeah, there's. There's also not a political 4D chess. And there's no that if I. Yeah, if I.

There's no angling.

Yeah, there's no angling. There's no angling. Or Machiavellian.

There's nothing Machiavellian. And they have a. Such a. Like, I was so blown away. I thought I was going to, you know, I thought kids, when I said, who's a leader? That that's the person who's in charge. Nobody gave me that answer. Right. That's. That's an adult answer. The irony is, and I think when you strip a human being down to their purest form, right, where you get rid of the insecurities and the politics and the angling and the over rationalizing and overthinking and weighing the pros and cons. And if you just strip all that away, what you get is a good leader, a good friend, the joy of life. Yes, there's stress. Of course there's stress. Kids have tons of stress. You know, I lost my teddy bear in an airport when I was a kid, let me tell you. Huge stress. Right, right, right. But the point is, is that the irony is, is we have to aspire to be like that. And that's kind of what we teach. Right. Like, I love getting advice from old people because they don't care what you think about them anymore. They don't care anymore. And so, like, old people and young people, like two old.

Yeah, yeah. Super, super old and super young.

Like really close to birth and really close to death. That's really like the purest form.

Totally, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

And then we mess it up in the middle to get to the end, to be like, I should have stayed like the beginning 100%.

And there was all. There's. There's one other detail that I wanted to kind of add to, which is both you and I are kind of bonding on being somewhat of, you know, for lack of a better word, somewhat of outsiders. Oh, I'm not a great standardized test taker. I'm not the most book smart. I did not top my calculus class. I didn't get a 5 on this AP test, so on and so forth. But I think there's. There's something that you've probably seen in your career. And I didn't know this was a gift or asset in my career, but. But I certainly hope that we can start valuing it in adult professional settings and certainly with younger children, which is when you said that you were able to.

See and hear something and then ask your teacher, is this what you're asking for? Or is this what you need? That kind of problem solving, real world problem solving, that's POV and discernment and figure it the fuck out Ness. And that is a gift. I think the term for it is called street smarts, but I think what you're referring to is really important, which is figure it the fuck out, which. Which is that's all filmmaking is. That's all comedy is. That's every writer's room, hey, what. What is your perspective? What is your pov? Hey, this is our budget. What are we going to do? And all of that stuff is there's all these intangible skills outside of, hey, I'm a good writer in Final Draft.

Yeah, that's really, really interesting. I mean, for me, and I've said this before, which is I think the solutions we find to the struggles we have when we're kids become our strengths as adults. Like, it wasn't what's my point of view? And like, this was, I either had to figure out how to do the homework the way they told me I had to, which wasn't working from a brain, or I had to find a different way to learn or I was going to fail. And some kids failed, right? And I wish that they had parents who said, clearly you're bad at math, but my God, you're a good singer. You know, I wish they did that.

Or, or not even that, man. You know, I want. I don't even want it to be that cliche, Simon. It's not like, man, you. You could have been a pop star. It's actually. Holy. You're a great organizer.

Yeah.

When it comes to rallying.

Yeah.

You can rally 10 people to do anything.

Yeah.

Like.

No, I know what you mean. It's. You know, we're talking about. We're talking about. We're talking about the. Like my niece. My niece has insanely phenomenal eq, like off the charts old soul eq.

Yeah.

And as a teenage girl, it is useless, you know, and it doesn't benefit getting ahead in school. But just you wait. As soon as she's in the real world, this magical talent, this gift.

And I think that's. I think what you're touching on is we don't tell kids what the gifts they have are that are outside of the report card.

Right, right, right. Yes, yes. And by the way, listen, I want to. I totally get. We need objective metrics and numbers and PNL sheets. Like. I get it.

We're not slamming the traditional metrics. We're saying and.

Yeah, and I'm saying and, and, and, and there. And there are other things that then will bring dividends in revenue and money and et cetera, et cetera. It. And you would be shocked at how important those things are, you know?

Yeah. This idea of conformity and nonconformity, you know, where as kids were nonconformists and it works out great, then we become conformists for valid reasons, you know, which is. Which is when we're very little, we only want the approval of our parents. And as we go through adolescence, we need approval from our peers, which is important because it allows us to acculturate with the larger tribe outside of our immediate family, which is important for survival. So I get that. Right.

But it seems the balance seems to tip too far.

And what I find funny about this idea of conformity and unconformity is when we're junior. When we're junior, we have to. So, I mean, I'll just speak for myself, right? Sure. All of the things that people criticized me for when I was junior in my career. You're unfocused. You think weird, Right. You need to be good at all these other things that I suck at. Right. Biology, being organized. How about, you know, just like when you're. When you're a junior person and working in a corporation, like your job is filing. You know, my job, like, I remember. I remember early in my career, my boss asked me to get him a file that I'm responsible for. About two hours later.

I walked into his office like this. Ha ha. You didn't think I had it, did you? And it was in that moment that I realized that when you're that excited that you found a file, you're disorganized.

Oh, boy.

But my point is, is I didn't change.

And Simon, when did you get. When did you get fired? At what point did you let go?

I. I mean, are we really going to go down that road? I didn't get fired, but I. I got my performance reviews.

Yes.

My performance reviews were. They went something like this. You're doing, you're doing a great job, but that's not how we do things here were my average performance reviews. Right.

But what I realized going back to the point I was making, which is, which is all the things that made me weird, different, don't know what to do with you when I was young are now celebrated, asked for, demanded as an as. Now that my career moved, same everything.

Yes.

But it was a weakness when I was junior, and it is the strength now that I've figured out how to stay on the path.

And, man, I feel for all those kids where their gifts aren't articulated through a standardized test. I feel for those kids, man, because I was one of those kids. I was a very middle of the pack, middling kid that really struggled. And then in my professional life, Del Taco, Office Max, Safeway, I worked in tech. Like every single one of those jobs. I was fired. I was let go.

You actually were. So what? Why would they. Was it consistent why you fired? Or was it just bad luck?

Yeah, it was, it was, it was consistent. It was me.

Yeah, I was the. Okay, accountability. I like it.

Yeah. But they would, they would always call me in and they would just go, look, you. You clearly don't want to be here. There, there is something else that you are.

I. We can tell when we are going this way. Your mind is here. Like, you're always going somewhere else. Your enthusiasm, your passion, your patience, you are extremely impatient when it comes to the rules of being a cashier clerk at Safeway. And I'm like, you're totally right. Like, I don't, I don't fully adopt and buy into all the rules. I am late to work. I don't have it. I'm not a great employee here.

Right.

Like, it was completely my fault. That being said, I remember my last job that I got fired at. I was working tech support for a tech company and I was doing stand up comedy at the time. And my manager called me in and it was meant if you work in tech, many people have had this thing where you, where you get. Whenever you get that. That message. Hey, can we chat for a minute? It's bad. Just the. Hey, do you have a moment to chat? Just know that it's going to be bad, right? It's not possible.

It's the same. It's the same in relationships, by the way.

Yeah, yeah. Do a moment to chat, question mark.

I don't want to chat. I have no.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's never like. I just want to let you know.

Yeah.

On. On a fall day, when the eyes, when the, When. When the sunlight hits your eyes, I mean, it really brings out the hazel in your eyes. And I just want to let you know it's. It's. It's stunning. You know, it's not. It's never that. It's never that. It's usually something bad. But I remember I was getting let go and I was asked to bring my laptop and they make you, like, turn in your laptop like you're Edward Snowden or something.

It's. It's like having. Hand in your. Your. Your gun, in your badge.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. This is my, you know, MI6. Like, here's, here's everything.

And. But I remember my manager let me go and she goes, look, I can just tell is. Is there somewhere else you would rather be right now? And I knew the exact place that I would want to be. I wanted to be at the punchline. There was a show that I really wanted to be attending, but I had to be at work.

And I think that. That feeling of being out of alignment, like, I want to be here, but I am here. It manifested itself in me just not being a good fit at all.

Okay. Okay. Yes. And Right. Okay, now let's take the opposite. Okay. I knew. I knew a woman who, if you asked her what she did, she said, I'm an actor.

Okay.

Except she had been a bartender for about 20 years.

Okay.

And the last quote, unquote acting job she had was 20 years ago.

Okay.

Got the dream, got the survival job. Right? At what point? And then if you say.

I don't.

Know if it's talent, I don't know if it's effortless, I don't know if it's luck, but one of those things is missing.

It's not working out. Maybe it's you, maybe it's not you. I don't know. At what point do you, like, let the dream go? Or at what point do you say, maybe I don't have the talent? The effort, the luck, you know.

You know, I am always reticent to prescribe how other people should act or live their life.

The point is, being die hard for the dream is not always the best advice.

Yeah, I would say for me, man, look, I.

When I first moved to Los Angeles and pursued, you know, the dream, it was to be a comedian and be in movies and in TV shows, there was a lot of things that I wanted. There were many shows that I auditioned for that I didn't get. But I'll speak for myself. The thing that I'm the most proud of is that no matter what hand I was dealt with, I played my hand to the best of my ability. And as information came in, I just iterated like, hey, I'm auditioning to get into this comedy club. The booker didn't pass me. Cool, I'll go to the comedy club across town. Yeah, Like, I continue to iterate. And then the second thing that I did is to the best of my ability, I don't try to litigate the, the past. Meaning what? Whatever, whatever grievances or casting directors or jobs that didn't go my way. I'm not here to get my pound of flesh y and try to pursue that. Like, I am taking the information and just like, you know, my Browser, Mozilla Firefox v10.7.1, every turn of the road, I'm just updating my path. Like, you know, I'm 39 years, I'll be turning 40 in September.

Did I want to be in Superbad when I was 22 years old? Of course I did. Of course I wanted to be in Superbad. Of course I auditioned for those early Judd Apatow movies and it would've been a dream to be a young 20 something in a very fun comedy. Yeah, I'm 40 years old now. That dream is over. That dream is for me. It's never going to happen. I'm not, I'm not good at being a 22 year old, but I'm pretty great at being now a 39 year old.

Okay, so, so here, the intervening factor, the intervening factor in those two scenarios because, you know, we're not offering prescriptions because we don't really know. Right?

Yeah, everyone's lived experiences.

But the one intervening factor, your case, my case and those other cases are somebody objective. Not your mom, not your bestie said, hmm, you got a thing.

Like somebody, somebody validated. There's a talent objectively, that if you get a little bit lucky, if you work hard and you foster that talent.

You had gift of gab. Sure. But gift of gab is not quite enough to be a comedian. You also have to get a laugh, you know, I have gift of gab. And you're funnier. Not much, but funnier.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're talking. We're talking.

It's a relative. It's a relative scale. Right, sure. But the point is, the point is, is we both had external, objective validation that gives you a little bit of confidence to stick with it. Right. And then maybe every now and then you get a little bit more from somebody else and that's enough to help you ignore the people who don't see it and keep looking for somebody else who does. But it's not your mom who says, honey, you're amazing. You should audition for American Idol, right?

Yeah. No, my parents did not validate me that way.

Right.

Maybe that's. Maybe that's the reason why I am.

I mean, my parents love me and they validated all sorts of things, but I also drove them nuts because I couldn't study.

Are you parents still alive?

Yeah, very, very, very much so.

Oh. And so, and, and how do they feel now that you're wildly successful and you have, you know, books and memes that have gone viral around the world?

I mean, I guess Indian parents or Jewish parents are the same. Like, I mean, I'm not a lawyer or a doctor, but they'll take it, you know, it's a close second, I guess. Yeah. They don't know how to describe what I do to their friends, but it's fine. My, you know, my. My dad gets asked, like, Simon Sinek.

You know, that's great. Oh, that's great.

Well, your. Don't your parents get last? Like, like Nicki Minaj?

Sure.

Yes. Yeah.

All the time.

Yeah.

They're like. Yeah, like, like the rapper.

Right.

What was I gonna say? I. I think, look, I think there's another thing that maybe it's a strength, which is like, sure, I'm persistent and sure, I'm hardworking. I think everybody in my business and at that level is. And I'm sure with. With you in the publishing world to write a book. It is. Everybody is a good writer. Every. It's extremely competitive. Everybody has a high motor and is like, really driven. I think another thing that maybe I didn't know it was a strength, but when I was younger, which was, I'm going to.

Take in information and then pivot accordingly. I think I'm pretty good at that. The power of the pivot and, and maybe it's because I'm a child of immigrants. And we know that the plan is not always set. The plan is this fluid thing. It's. It really is like that computer game Oregon Trail, where you're like, oh, like your sister has died of scurvy. And you're like, all right, let's. Let's barter lemons for everyone. Yeah. You just. You have this thing of, like, I understand. Hey, the plan is going to change. It's not. I had this vision board and it's. It's supposed to be like. Supposed to be like, nothing. It's like, this is where our ADHD is actually.

This is where our ADHD helps us. Yes.

Very much.

I can't remember the plan, let alone stick to it. And so. Yeah. And so. And also because my brain moves like a pinball machine, you know, which. It's not a strength or a weakness. It has value and it has liability, you know? Yeah. I don't sleep because my brain doesn't turn off, you know, So, I mean, it. It does. I mean, I do sleep, but my point is, is like, I can lie awake for four hours. Nothing bad, just the brain doesn't turn off.

Are you serious?

It doesn't happen often, but it does happen occasionally. I just learned how to manage it. Like, I. I can go. I can. Like today I'm. I'm not. Five hours of sleep, and I'm fine. I can do one, but I can't do like three in a row, obviously.

But again, all of these, none of these things are strengths or weaknesses. They're just their characteristics and attributes. And I think what we have to learn to do is put ourselves in situations where those characteristic attributes manifest as strengths. Whereas when you. And this goes back to the original conversation, which is if you follow the path that's prescribed for some people, it'll work out just. And I would argue for most people, it would work out just fine. Yeah. But for someone like me, the prescribed path and the school path and the. Whatever it is, my. It just. It's never going to work. And so. And the trick was. And this is. This is what we're getting to. This is the core of we're getting to. For some reason, whether it's luck, external factors, parenting, a little bit of all of it. Right. For some reason, it didn't destroy my self confidence.

For some reason, I didn't think of myself as dumb or, you know, I had a 2.93 GPA when I graduated college.

Holy shit.

Yeah. Not the best gpa.

Yeah, That's Pretty bad.

Okay, okay, settle. I know why I got it.

Okay.

I got two Ds, neither of which I deserved.

Okay, okay, Gotcha. No accountability.

None.

Nice. Nicely done, Simon. Hey, let me ask you this.

So.

So this podcast is called a. A Bit of Optimism.

Just a tad. Just a wee. Just a hair of optimism.

Okay.

A width of optimism.

I'm sure many people who are fans of your work look to you for your. Your. Your perspective and your framing of the world. So obviously.

The news, politics, natural disasters, these things.

Inundate our. Our social feeds and our cell phones every day, and people are really going through it. Life is lifing. What do you do.

To. Do you look at the present and the future with optimism, or are you scared of the future? How do you look at the world and how do you advise other people?

No, I generally know the future is. I think the future tends toward good. Sometimes the road there is bumpy, right. And sometimes there's pain and liability getting towards it. But I believe the future tends towards good. And I. And I believe that you can maintain confidence in the bright future based on the quality of your relationships. Right. Just think of it. Just think of it as by yourself, right? Which is the only. Well, not the only, but a massively significant reason why you're able to deal with personal struggle, personal trauma, things that go really badly in your life or career. Okay. Is when you have at least one person who can put their hand on your shoulder and say, I'm with you. Don't worry about it. No matter what happens. No matter what happens. No matter what happens, I'll be by your side. No matter what. If you have one person who has. Who gives you that, it is remarkable, the strength and courage we have to keep going. I mean, a real friend who sits in mud with you, if you have one of those, it gives you confidence. And so what I have learned is the more that I have offered that comfort to the people I admire who are fighting, actually in the trenches, fighting the good fight. And I have called my friends who are in it and said, dude, I'm here for you. If you have to cry, if you have to shout, if you just need a distraction, I don't care the time of the day, don't care the time of the night. I'm here.

And so and so. And that's what gives me optimism.

Going to change the subject on you. Make a sharp left turn here.

Let's take a short left.

The role of the comedian, the role of the court jester.

The jester is the Only one who spoke truth to the king. Right, right. I'm just curious, just even in how long have you been officially a comedian?

I've been a comedian 20 years. 20, 20 years of my life.

20 years ago. Have you, have you seen the role of the comedian change? We're telling joke, like the nature of the joke, you know, like, are there more social commentary comedians now than there were? What is the importance of those social commentary comedians, if any, you know, the social commentary comedian gets canceled. Chappelle, one of the great social commentators. Right. Should comedians be given a wider berth because they play a vital role. I'm just curious on the role of the community because they are not the mainstream media.

Sure, yeah.

They play a very different and often important role.

So maybe what I can do is give you my framework and put it in different buckets. So let me put it this way. So real quick, we can talk about the art form of live stand up comedy. I think that's what you're talking about. The court jester, the stand up comedian. So that is a, like, historically, it is a live art form that was birthed. It is a uniquely American art form, by the way, that was started in the United States of America in the West Village as, as local nightclub acts in the West Village. So if you've been to the Comedy Cellar, if you've been to the Blue Note Jazz Club, that was the birthplace of kind of modern standup comedy. Jazz musicians, nightclub performers, they were called nightclub performers. You would go into these little smoky basements and performers would sing songs. You'd essentially do a variety show. There would be a singer, a piano player, perhaps a jazz musician and then a stand up comedian. Everyone from Dick Gregory to young Richard Pryor to. They would, young Bill Cosby, they would perform at these nightclubs.

Right.

West Village. And adults would essentially grown adults would go into these basements and kind of do. The social expectation was it was like an adult Christmas party.

Some performers are going to tell us naughty jokes.

While we are slightly induced with alcohol. It really was kind of like a fancier version of your Christmas party of like, hey, let's loosen up a little bit and let's, let's crack some wise ones between each other and let our.

Hair down a little bit and allow the barriers of what's considered socially acceptable just to open up the aperture a little bit. Yeah.

And I'll give you an example. So I don't drink personally for, you know, religious reasons. I don't drink. I've never had a sip of alcohol in my Life. But I've asked my friends, I go, hey, I always felt left out when people would go, do you want to go grab a drink? So I asked my buddy, I go, what is that? What do you guys do when you like, grab a glass of wine or you drink? And he goes, my buddy goes, listen, man, really what it is, it's, it's when you hold that cup, you're basically saying like, everything that happened in the office over there, that's like, let's leave that to the side. How do you really feel about Todd? And we can talk shit about Todd. Like, and it's this, there's this social cue in the like, yeah, yeah, clink of like, fuck Todd. And you're like, yeah, fuck Todd. You get to like commiserate. So that at its core was, was to get back to what live stand up comedy is. That kind of what it is, right? And then the proliferation of what became cable, which was hbo, George Carlin, they started to. And, and then the Tonight show, they would put nightclub comedians on television. And that became a slightly different comedy medium, meaning the medium that it was governed by was the medium of television. I'm going to perform for a live studio audience. But really there's another character here and it's the camera right here. And that's going to broadcast to your home. You in your living room in the 1970s or 1980s, you're going to sit there and go like, huh, I think this guy's, this guy's pretty funny. This Ray Romano guy's pretty funny. I think he's fun. You know, you'll then judge based on that thing. So that then created a new thing called like the Stand Up Comedy Special.

We were very aware of this, but, but Simon, now there's like a third version of this, which is.

Television has been digitized with, by streaming and social media. And now there's a comment section. So what started as a, as a nightclub art form for, I'm not kidding, 125 people in a basement in the West Village has now translated to when you go see stand up comedy, you might see it literally on your phone on YouTube and your broadcast audience is for 8 billion people.

And so you're watching a recording of someone performing live and then there's another audience which is you watching on your screen. And then there's a third audience, which is the comment section and people talking about it on the Internet. And so for me as a comic, what I try to remember is, hey, this is an art form similar to live music, live Jazz, it is a live art form. Irl. You are here to perform comedy.

I get it.

And get them on your side.

I get. So go back, go back to the role.

I always bring it back to that.

Go back to the role of the court jester. I'm curious if, if, if the, in this modern day and age, sure. If the comedian is still the right.

Medium.

For.

Pointing out the absurdities, the ironies, the truths, the powers, the hypocrisies of politics, life, parenting, you know, relationships. Because people now can get triggered by the mirror. The comedian will sometimes hold up the mirror. You may not like what you see. So death to the messenger.

So let me, let me say this. So two, two answers to that question. Number one, is it the court jester's job to speak truth to power, etc. So my answer to that question is the primary job of the comedian is to entertain. So as someone who went to law school and had to take the lsat, perhaps the necessary condition is entertainment. No, no, remember that there's the necessary and sufficient right. Necessary is you must be funny.

Yes.

You have to, you have to induce laughter. Otherwise it's a speech, right? If they don't laugh, it's a speech.

Right?

You're lecturing them. So that's the necessary condition. The sufficient condition, which it'd be nice to, but it doesn't have to, is maybe there's a lesson, maybe it reflects something larger about society. Maybe it speaks truth to power, maybe it talks about the election, maybe it frames up the existential crisis that is adult life. Or maybe it's just funny. Maybe it's just a fart joke, maybe it's just a dick joke. Maybe it's just. Maybe it's just to make fun of Todd. Maybe the whole point is just say fuck Todd. That's the, that that is what it can be. And so I think when there's this inversion that it has to be that that's not what it is.

Got it?

Don't make the sufficient condition the necessary condition. It's just the sufficient.

Got it?

And here's.

And that's. And that's personal preference and taste of the comic themselves.

That's personal preference. So, so you may be into family friendly fare and you may say, I want to bring my 7 year old daughter to a comedy show. Well, you know who'd be great, who's both entertaining and enlightening for you and your seven year old daughter? Jim Gaffigan, you know, Nate Bargazzi. That would be a great act. Maybe you want to see darker humor. Maybe you're really going through something. You want to see something. You might go see Anthony Jeselnik, very funny, very dark. But maybe he's not talking about politics or that. Then you could go see Trevor Noah or Jon Stewart. So let's put that there. Then let's talk about the second part of your question, which is where are we in society? I'd put it this way. Stand up comedy. In the pecking order, you got your actors and your musicians, you have your magicians and your clowns. Stand up comedy somewhere between magicians and clowns. Let's call a spade a spade. Everybody wants to be a rock star. If you could close your eyes, ask any musician, ask any comedian you wish you could do.

Yeah, rock star is number one, movie star is number two.

Rock star and movie stars up there, it's either Tom Cruise or, you know, I want to be John Mayer. I want to be in a band and I want to emote and I want people to love that. And then, and then stand up comedy is, it's, yeah, it's, it's there. So I, that's where I kind of.

Place us, between clown and magician. So somewhere between David Copperfield and Bozo.

There'S a comedian. Yes.

And occasionally we might surprise you and give you. Do you a little bit more.

Do you. So we talked about the, the court jester, that it's just the preference of the comedian and then hopefully like a movie. I like comedy, I like drama, I like a rom com. You go, obviously you go find the comedian that you find funny and that you like their message or non message, whatever it is. Has your taste changed? Are you talking about very different things now than you were 20 years ago?

Yes. As I've gotten older, I've almost like my taste buds have become, you know, maybe more refined. So when I was an early open mic micr.

Things that were juvenile or stupid.

But take it further than that, take it further than that. When your career, when your career is going, you, you're working, it's like you already have some fame, you know, so you got a style, you got a voice. You figured that out. You got a fan base you can, you can, you can sell out a show to. Now that's, that's the delta I'm interested in.

And give me the question just so I'm answering you specifically.

Have your tastes changed? Have your observations changed? Have your point of view changed?

Yes, 100%. From what to light.

Life, love, failure, pain, age. They have matured me. They have humbled me, they have matured me. I have seen loved ones pass away. I have attended funerals. I've seen people that I care about get diagnosed with cancer. I've lost friends to suicide. I have friends going through divorces. These things were not even premises that I could entertain. When I first started as an open micro when I was 19, that was not even in my imagination, you know, and now, like, I have. I have disc pain and a buddy of mine is going through a divorce, and I'm talking him through it while he's, you know, fighting for custody with. For his children. Like, this is life.

Yeah.

You know, and that has informed my comedy. I have had dreams. I have had things that work. I have things that don't work. I have been humbled. I have been human. All of those things have informed who I am.

Yeah. Let's take this full circle, right? Which is we started by talking about the magic that is a child that is unabashed and lives in idealism and follows their gut and cares about their fellow human being next to them, you know, with such. Such beauty. We lose it. We spend a lifetime, you know, every manner of social media guru trying to teach you how to get it back and let go of attachment and let go of this and let go of that, you know, but it sounds like there's the. There's something to be said for wisdom. There's something to be said for life experience that in some way, shape or form informs that gut, that maybe your gut itself becomes more refined and you're not just going on, do I want to do it? Do I not want to do it? But other factors creep in, like, is this the right thing to do?

Correct. Correct. Or also. And I'm sure people who are listening to this may identify with this. You notice how the older you get, you meet someone and maybe they're offering you a date or a business opportunity, maybe both. I don't know. I'm not here to judge anyone, but have you ever done that thing where, where someone goes, hey, Simon, I'd love to take you out to lunch, or I'd love to, you know, chat with you about this? And they, they do a couple things that give you red flags and you go, you know, I'd rather not. It's okay, I'm busy. And really what you're saying is, hey, I've met you before.

Oh, you're that person that likes to.

Go, I've had a lot of those lunches.

I've. I've met you before.

Yeah, yeah.

And I know how this ends.

Yeah.

And so what's cool about getting older is you go, oh, you start to see those patterns and go, I don't need to engage with that. Yeah, I met. I've met you before. I know how this sounds.

Early in my career, I had the opportunity to speak on the stage with one of my heroes. And that's. I met him for the first time. Yeah. And it was. It was amazing. I got to share a stage with one of my heroes. Right.

That's awesome.

And at. It was lunchtime. We're at this conference, and he says to me, you want to get lunch? And I was like, oh, you know, yes, you know. So the two of us were walking out of the conference hall to go get lunch together, and a guy stops us, stands right in front of us and says, oh, my God. My lucky day. Two of my favorite people. I have a question for you. Can I tell you my elevator pitch and will you evaluate it for me? You know, And I was like, sure. What do you got? You know? And I watch my hero, and he just zones out and starts looking at the sky. And I was like, you know, I give him my answers. I give him my feedback. My friend, now, friend, says nothing, and we go get lunch. And I said to him, how come you didn't want to just give the guy your point of view? Like, who cares, right?

Yeah.

He goes, no, the guy's a taker. I'm like, like, he only wants from us. He. He's not trying to give anything to the world. And I was like, hmm, cynical. Okay, I. I get it. And then, like, yeah, go forwards a little bit. And I would get emails saying, will you do this for me? But then I get. But then I get another email that says, I'm devoted to helping my team. I love them. I. I. All I want is for them to succeed, and I want to get this right to support them. Will you do this for me? And I'm just like, oh.

Right. He's, as you said, he's met those people before, and he wants to give energy to people who give energy right now.

Did it give it away that his email was taker4632gmail.com? Did that give it away? Was that a giveaway? This guy was.

Well, now it's like, I got. Yeah, I love it now. I know I got it. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, I don't have anything funny to say.

Otherwise, I would have said it.

Hasan. Truly, truly a joy.

Amen. This is great.

I love your mind. I really do.

Thanks.

Dude.

I appreciate you, man.

Thanks man. Bye. Cheers.

Thanks for having me.

If you enjoyed this podcast, would like to hear more. Please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, SimonSinek.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsey Garbinius, David Jha and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Ruderschan.