Why the Best Companies Are Built Around OPTIMISM | Full Conversation

So welcome everyone. Hello.

It's my pleasure to invite you here all today and thank you for joining us. My name is Melissa Brennan and I work in the Institutional Advancement and Alumni Relations office at Brandeis University. And we're very excited to have with us today our guest speaker, Simon Sinek, class of 95. The title of the talk is why the Best Companies Are Built Around Optimism. And I don't know about you, but I feel the world can always use more optimism, optimism and more optimist. I'd like to let you know that today's webinar is sponsored by the Brandeis International Business School, Hyatt Career center and the Brandeis Alumni Association. And before we begin, I am delighted to introduce Philippe Wells, who is a professor of the practice of entrepreneurial finance in the Brandeis International Business School and he is the director of the Asper center for Global Entrepreneurship and at Brandeis, Professor Wells teaches courses in entrepreneurship, private equity, and introduction to business. And I would also note that he is a seasoned entrepreneur in the health and wellness industry. With that said, I'm going to turn it over to Professor Wells. Thank you.

Great. Thank you so much, Melissa. So, as Melissa said, we're very fortunate today to have Simon Sinek join us. Simon's one of the most highly viewed TED Talk speakers, as well as the author of multiple bestselling books including Start with why the Infinite Game and Leaders Eat Last. He received a BA in Cultural Anthropology from Brandeis and went on to study law before he left law school to go into advertising. Simon's fascinated by the people and organizations that make the greatest and longest lasting impact. Over the years, he's discovered some remarkable patterns about how they act, think and communicate and also the environments in which people operate at their natural best. Simon shares inspiration on a daily basis through his best selling books, as well as his podcast, A Bit of Optimism. In addition, Simon's the founder of the Optimism Company, a leadership learning and development company. And he publishes other inspiring thinkers and doers through his partnership with Penguin Random House called Optimism Press. So with that, Simon, I'd love to get started.

Good to see you. Good to see you. Yes. Well, why don't I just, I'll just jump right into the questions and I do actually want to encourage. We went over this with Simon just before we got on the call and Simon very much does. He's, he's here to answer your questions. He's, he's not here to, you know, to summarize and talk about all his books. He's here to, to Share his insights and who he is and how he thinks. So whenever you have questions, just feel free to add them to the queue. So with that, Simon, the. The class here that's sort of at the core of our talk and our imitation today for this talk is actually an entreprene entrepreneurship class. And our tool for analyzing entrepreneurship is something called the Lean Startup framework. It deals with things like minimal viable products, hypothesis testing, and so on. Now, the question that occurred to me as I was thinking about this talk and having you here is what would be the outline or the parameters behind the optimistic startup?

That's a great question.

So, first of all, let's define a few terms. I think there's a big difference between being an entrepreneur and being a small business owner. Small business owners own small businesses, but entrepreneurs are problem solvers. And you find entrepreneurs in government, you find entrepreneurs in large corporations. They're not simply people who start businesses. Richard Branson's an entrepreneur, but he doesn't own a small business anymore.

And so I think we have to remember that, you know, that. That an entrepreneur is a problem solver, and they don't go around solving random problems. That's. That's weird. You know, the best entrepreneurs usually have some sort of vision of the world that does not yet exist. In other words, they're idealists in some way, shape or form. And, you know, in their early years, when they're young, it's probably some gut feeling, and later on, hopefully, they can articulate what that vision is in terms that can inspire more people around them. And the ones that achieve scale definitely are capable of doing that. And so when I think about the optimistic leader, I mean, number one, they have to have vision. And vision is not like to build the best, most reliable, highest quality product. That's not vision. Vision is, I imagine, a world in which.

Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak had vision. They imagined a world in which an individual could compete against a corporation. There was you know, fundamentally sort of like, you know, revolutionary spirit. And the personal computer was the mechanism by which they used to do that. If the company was founded 30 years later, it would be a. It would be a. It would be a tech company, not a hardware company. You know, it's just nature of the times it was founded and the tools that were available. My own vision. I imagine a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Entrepreneurship comes in looking for the path that helps me move closer towards that vision. So for me, an optimistic entrepreneur is someone with vision and looking for the best tools to advance that vision.

Great. Sounds good. So the next question wanted to get into is you have this famous talk about the workplace and millennials and I know you get asked as well about Gen Z in the workplace. Well, we have a lot of gen zers on this call and actually what I wanted to ask you is how do you think, how they should think about preparing for the workplace? So, you know, this is a class. We're preparing them to think about entrepreneurship and how to, you know, go out and innovate. How should they prepare more broadly for the workplace, given what you've set out as sort of some of the defining characteristics of the workplace today.

So there was a great disservice that was done to capitalism over the course of the 80s, 90s and 2000s. And that disservice was perpetuated by leaders like Jack Welch.

And basically what they did is they made business in America more about value to a shareholder, an external constituent over a customer or an employee. And remember good old fashioned Adam Smith capitalism, the kind of capitalism that made America great. The kind of capitalism that Thomas Jefferson studied. Thomas Jefferson owned all the volumes of wealth of Nations.

That form of capitalism believed in competition as a means of producing a higher quality product. We now live in a world where, where that's not really true, that when a company, for example, announces mass layoffs to meet some arbitrary financial projection, we see a stock price goes up, go up. This is a big problem.

And many of the inherent deals that were made between a company and its employer, a company and the customer used to be, you know, that we will work tirelessly in our competitive spirit to make a better product from you. And we will work tirelessly to look after our people so that our people give back years of loyalty. And unfortunately, this young generation has grown up in a world where mass layoffs are so normalized, where they've watched their parents or their friends, parents be laid off through no fault of their own. It was not a meritocracy just because the company missed it. Like I said, an arbitrary projection. It's profitable, just not as profitable as we expected. So you get to lose your job as a result. So I can go back and prove to somebody that I balance the books, even though I'm doing long term damage to the culture of the company. And that deal was broken, that deal was broken, that I'm going to take care of you and you're going to take care of me. And so it's very funny to me that companies lament that this young generation seems to offer no loyalty to the company when they have offered none for decades.

And in the process of business becoming much more short term, much more transactional, and the human element falling to the wayside, we've also seen a decline in a very, very, very specific skill set called human skills. Right. I hate the term soft skills. Hard skills and soft skills. Hard and soft are opposite. That means they work in opposition to each other, right? Hard skills, the skills you need to do your job, and human skills, the skills you need to be a better human being. And both of those are important to be a great entrepreneur and a great and a great business person. And though we teach hard skills and we teach how to read a balance sheet and what a P and L is, and we teach all of these wonderful things, unfortunately we started to treat people like something on a P and L. And what we have to do better is teaching human skills. Human skills include things like listening, like empathy, like how to give and receive feedback, like how to have a difficult conversation. These are vital skills in a modern day that we don't teach, which means our business leaders do not have those skills. And if you want to build culture, if you want to build trust, you need these skills. If you want to manage difficult times, you need to have these skills. Take for example what happened after the murder of George Floyd. And I saw this pervasive. The number of leaders after the murder of George Floyd do nothing. Not because they're bad people. It's because they were too afraid to have a conversation about race with their team, fearing that they would say the wrong thing and accidentally inflame a situation or trigger somebody. So they chose nothing. And I don't fault them for it. What they're missing is a necessary skill set, how to have a difficult conversation. Hey, team, we need to have a difficult conversation. I'm afraid to have this conversation. I fear I'm going to say the wrong thing or accidentally trigger somebody. And I need your help because I'm going to fumble this. But it's more important that we have this conversation than not, simply because I'm afraid that's how you start a difficult conversation. That is a teachable, learnable.

Practiceable skill set. So one thing that I would like to see more of in our university system to prepare young people as they enter the workforce, whether they choose an entrepreneurial path or, or not, is to be better equipped with these skills because their companies, as of now, are doing a poor job of equipping them. And if they are going to be the future leaders, I want them to bring these skills to business to repair the capitalism and repair the damage done by folks like Jack Welch.

Yeah, thank you. So we're starting to get a bunch of questions here in the Q and A. Thank you audience for putting the questions in. Encourage you to put in more. So this is kind of, I think you've already gotten to this. I mean, the question basically is how would you recommend we begin teaching these soft skills? So human skills.

They're.

Exactly, exactly two points. One, they're not soft skills.

Not soft at all.

Point is you said they're teachable. Maybe just talk a little bit more about what that would entail.

So they are not soft. There is nothing soft about having a very uncomfortable conversation with somebody.

So the question is, where do you start teaching? Well, there's plenty of curriculum available, but it's usually in different departments. Go to the social work department.

Go look at parenting education. There's tons of curriculum available, but we don't put it in the business school. And we need to.

A course on active listening, for example. You know, we are terrible listeners. We're good at screaming and yelling and we're terrible at listening. The mere fact that there's even, you know, it's even a thing, it's even a meme about how to get through Thanksgiving because of your uncle who has, you know, opposite political views at you. And the best advice we get is don't bring up politics at the Thanksgiving table. That's nonsense. How about learn to have an uncomfortable conversation and learn to listen and understand someone's point of view when you vehemently disagree with them. And sitting down trying to convince them is not listening. Trying to understand and have empathy is listening. And when two people with opposing points of view can find common ground, that's where growth happens. And I'll give you a real life example from, you know, in my life, I have a friend, she is from rural Tennessee. And we discovered over the course of our friendship just how divergent our political views and views on how the world works are to the, you know, some of she buys into some, you know, conspiracy theories.

And she and I went for a walk once and we were talking about something and I definitely thought and I may have even said, how can you be so stupid? And she stopped in her tracks and said, you just called your friends stupid. And I realized, what have I done? I'm literally closing off any opportunity for constructive conversation here because I judged and accused even If I think whatever theory she's buying into is not grounded in fact, I attacked her.

And so I had to learn to take a step back and embrace empathy. And instead of trying to convince her that she was wrong or point out the facts that dispute her beliefs, I instead went on a journey of learning to listen, understand how she came to believe in the things she believes. And during COVID we had many conversations that were diametrically opposed. And instead of attacking each other or trying to convince each other, we got really good at saying, tell me more about that. You know, where does that come from? And almost always I could find a fact or I could find a detail that says, you're absolutely right there. That is absolutely true. And the minute we could find common ground, all of a sudden we could build up from there. And she became much more open to some of the points of view I had as soon as I could affirm some element in what she had or find something I agreed with. And that skill of active listening is incredibly difficult but immensely valuable in finding common ground, especially with people with political. Different political points of view. But the point is, you're going to have disagreements with people about what decision to make for the company. You know, you're going to have decisions about what to do with an underperforming employee. You know, what do we do? You know, somebody who's resistant to coaching, how do, how do we react? You know, like, difficulty is the nature of the game. There's nothing smooth about business. It is an incredibly complicated.

Game that is, it's a game of people, right? It's all people. Customers are people, investors are people, employees are people, like everybody's people. And people are messy. And they're filled with ego and insecurity and ambition and fear and all the rest of it. Congratulations, there's your company.

And the best leaders are the ones who. Who aren't necessarily the best at reading the P and L. The best leaders are the ones who have. Who learn and commit themselves to learning all the skills necessary to navigate those complications and in so doing, building trust from their team that gives them permission to even make mistakes.

Yeah, great. I mean, I think so. My next question feeds right into what you were talking about.

The question from Rohi is how can you remain optimistic as a leader on a team when others are not bought into the teams end goal? And I think we kind of set that question up, but is there anything else to add? Sort of like, how does the leader remain optimistic? It's complicated. It's messy. As you were saying.

Okay, so there's a few answers there. If you're the person doing the hiring, then you have a responsibility to put out what your vision is. And if you're just hiring a skill set and you're ignoring whether that potential, that future employee, that candidate even believes in what you believe, then if you hired somebody who shouldn't be on the team, then you bear some responsibility. You can't just scream and yell at them and call them underperforming and let them go. You bear some responsibility. Right? You made a mistake in hiring them. So that's part. If you're not the person responsible for hiring, but you're stuck with someone, you're working with, someone who doesn't buy into the team goal.

That shouldn't impact your optimism. Right? It'll cause frustration. But let's be crystal clear what optimism is. Optimism is not blind, nor is it naive. It is not the same as blind or toxic positivity. Everything's fine, everything's good, everything's fine. A lot of leaders make that mistake, which is in difficult times. They falsely believe they have to be positive and put on a brave face every day to inspire the team. But it does the opposite. Because when we're in the mud together and you're blindly up, blindly positive, I know we're in the mud. So I just don't believe you. And so it actually makes things worse, or I look at you go, oh, my God. How can you be positive in this difficult time? There must be something wrong with me. So it backfires in a major way, right? Optimism is not the same. Optimism is the undying belief that the future is bright and you can stand in darkness and you can wade through difficulty and mud, and you can be honest about it. We are going through an incredibly difficult time. It is filled with uncertainty, and I am uncertain as well. But there's one thing I know for sure. If we work together through these difficult times, 100% guaranteed, we will get through this, and we will come out of this stronger than we went in, even if I don't know how long we're going to be in the darkness. That's optimism. And no matter who's on the team, who may or may not buy into the goal, the goal is not to obsess about the one or two people who aren't bought in. The goal is to obsess about the cause, the vision, to rally the people who do believe. And hopefully that person who doesn't buy in will either join or extract themselves. I'm very public about people who don't buy into things. I say, listen, I don't mind that you don't believe in this. It actually doesn't bother me. Right? Come to work, do your job, do sort of the minimum that we need. Punch your clock, get your paycheck, go home. I'm totally fine with that. Just don't get in the way or sabotage what we're doing. There's no cause for that, there's no reason for that, Right? Just do your thing and we'll leave you alone. But you cannot sabotage.

And I think that's totally okay to say. I've definitely said it not necessarily at somebody that I've said it in an audience, you know, to a group of, to a team. Like if you don't believe in it, I'm cool with it. Just collect your paycheck and just leave the rest of us alone. There's no reason you need to sabotage.

Nice.

There's a question from Varun, who I know has been working on a startup and has pivoted a couple of times. So I think it might be coming from that perspective. His question is, how do you balance vision for the future and also be able to take decisions in the short term?

So they're not mutually exclusive.

Of course you have to make short term decisions like, of course.

But making sure you maintain vision for the future includes things like integrity. It includes things like adherence to values. Right? So you can make short term decisions, but they have to be consistent with your values. They have to be consistent with, with a high ethical standard.

Of course you can. You can. When you're trying to be healthy, you can eat chocolate cake. Just don't eat too much of it. Like if you need a short term sugar rush, if you need a short term infusion of something, you're going to do business with a client you know is a bad fit, but you need the cash. Fine, do it. But don't do it under any illusions that this is the future and everything's going to be hunky dory or that that relationship is going to be enjoyable. You know, the mistake is when we keep making those decisions for the short term, then ultimately what will break the organization, the mistake we make is you keep eating the chocolate cake when you're trying to be healthy and eventually the exercise isn't having the same impact as it used to.

So short term decisions are fine, but do them with eyes wide open and don't kid yourself or rationalize things away. I think one of the biggest mistakes young entrepreneurs make is when they start to Seek investment and they take investment from either the name brand investor or they take investment from the person who offers them the most money. But just like remember, most investors are not looking to make a long term bet. Few are, but not enough. They're looking for relatively short term bets. And no matter what they say at the beginning, wait a few years and you'll start to feel the pressure for where those returns are and the pressure to put lipstick on a pig start to increase. And so the number of times I hear from young entrepreneurs, one of the biggest struggles they have is actually the pressure from their investors. And I always shrug my shoulders and say, you took the money. And so do your homework. You know, go talk to some of their other, other companies that they've invested in, for example, find out what it's like to work with them. Find out if there's pressure, find out what, how they treat you when things go wrong. Find out what happens when you want to make an ethically correct decision, but it might be financially, it might create a short term liability. Do they support you or do they hammer you to make the financially expedient decision? Go do your homework and then have the guts to turn that investor down to go with another investor who may offer you less money. Your partners are the most important thing you've got, especially in early stage. Um, and so, and so you, you know, long term vision means staying true to my values, staying true to the direction I'm going, open minded to how I get there, open minded to changing the product, but, but remaining true to the cause I'm trying to advance. That's, that's how you make short term decisions. If you, if you close off your mind to what the future looks like and to your values.

Things aren't going to go well or you will be very uncomfortable as you go down that path.

Yeah. Well, speaking of path, we've got a question here from Sam which digs a little bit into your past here. While training in cultural anthropology, was there one individual story or journey that really resonated with you and how did their story impact your thoughts and ideas?

What was that when training in cultural anthropology? Is that what it was?

Yeah, well, she said ethnography, but I think it was cultural anthropology.

So, so, so I was a cultural anthro major. That's true. And I did study ethnography.

There's no one story that really contributed. But you know, where a lot of my colleagues were interested in sort of, you know, some Amazonian tribe with, you know, 15 members left, you know, those kinds of Cultures. I was always interested in Western urban culture. I was interested in the culture in which I live.

And I did, you know, a bunch of. I did an independent study where I was in student government. I was the chairman of the allocations board back in the day. And, and so I, I don't even know if this is public. Whoops. But I basically did an independent study simultaneously being involved in student government where I was actually writing papers about all the leadership styles of the other people I worked with in student government. They don't know that. And I was learning about how insecurity, because I knew some of these people were my friends, right? How insecurity impacts leadership style. Sometimes insecurity makes us quiet and demure and, you know, obsequious and sometimes it makes us bombastic and overcompensate. And I was fascinated by that, that it didn't come out in one flavor. So that was pretty impactful, to be honest, where I started at a very young age in college, to recognize that.

How hard it is to tell someone's motivation based on their leadership style, you know.

And it really made me fascinated and curious with how organizations work, when they work.

Well, it's all public now.

To great benefit of our audience today. All right, well, here's a question from Anwar. How would you say we reconcile the humanity of employees and of consumers in the age of big data, when essentially everything is being reduced and understood as a data point?

You have to put a human face back on those data points. There's something called ethical fading, which is insidious. Ethical fading is when people make unethical decisions believing they are still within their own ethical framework. In other words, they don't think they've done anything wrong. And we see this extreme examples are when a pharmaceutical company will raise the price of an essential drug for which they have the patent. 500%, 800%, 1,000%, 1,500% to meet some financial objective which is not illegal, but wholly unethical. And we always drag them in front of Congress and say, why did you do it? And they all say the same thing, we didn't do anything illegal. No, but my goodness, that was unethical. Right? What happened at Wells Fargo? Same thing. People started opening fake bank accounts to help them meet their short term financial objectives. In some cases illegal, but in many cases wholly unethical.

And one of the things that happens in ethical fading, one of the criteria that, that allows ethical fading to happen is the overuse of euphemisms where we use language to distance ourselves from the impact of our decisions. Right. So, for example, you ask most CEOs, would you ever spy on your customers? Of course we would never spy on our customers. That's insane. Data mining, we love. We love data mining right now. Just call it what it is. It's spying on your customers. Right. And you'll find that if you actually call things for what they are, your ability to navigate those ethical pitfalls actually becomes a lot easier when we use euphemisms to distance or disconnect ourselves or to, you know, create this sort of, you know, cozy view of things like externalities. We're managing externalities. You mean you're managing the damage you're doing to the environment and the societies in which you have your factory. Right. Just call it what it is, you know, and then you'll find managing expert externalities, the percentages that you found acceptable are no longer acceptable. My friend Bob Chapman, who runs a company called Barry Wehmiller, doesn't even refer to headcount. We have to reduce our headcount. He refers to heart count. It's very difficult to reduce a heart count. Right. And so language really matters when you're navigating these things. And if you call things for what they are, you'll find your. You'll find your ability to make better decisions go up. And so in the case that you talk about tech, you have to put a human face back on numbers. And there's been studies done on this. There's a group of social scientists who did a wonderful experiment where they took a bunch of volunteers at a university who were dialing for dollars for a scholarship. Right. During these hard times, we're looking for you to donate to, you know, to whatever scholarship. And the numbers were kind of flat to down. And so they hired a consultant to rewrite the script. That had a small but not very significant impact. And these social scientists brought in.

A recipient of the scholarship to talk to the volunteers. Are you ready for this? For five minutes. For five minutes. And talk about the impact the scholarship had on their lives. All of a sudden, they didn't have to obey a script. And they weren't doing it for some, you know, ethereal, mystical student scholarship. They were doing it for Stacy over there. I'm doing this. I'm calling you because I'm damn well going to get more money for people like Stacy. And it became deeply personal. A division of Wells Fargo in St. Louis, the not the bad world. So I go, this is like a little. Just a little bank.

Same thing. Their small business loan Department, there's just dealing with numbers and creating, you know, everything was a spreadsheet. And what they did was, is they brought in a recipient of the small business loan to talk about the impact that loan had on their life and performance skyrocketed because they're now doing it for a person. So if you find that you have dehumanized the people you're supposed to be serving, bring in somebody who has benefited from your product or your service to talk to your employees and put a human face back on it. Letters work as well. Not as effective, the data shows, as a human being, but it still has a positive impact. So you have to, as a leader, put human faces, not generic, real people, back to those numbers, humanize them, rehumanize them.

It also may help you maintain higher levels of ethics as well. That's one of the reasons, I think we have more unethical behavior. A lot of unethical behavior in companies is because they're looking at spreadsheets and thinking that those are customers.

Yeah.

So this is another question here about people and teams from Iko. You mentioned the importance of building trust within organizations and relationships for college students who are often in short term groups like a course project. What are some practical steps that we could take to foster trust and collaboration among those types of teams? And in parentheses, I just put together some teams that in this class will start to work on a project. So it's very, it's very timely.

Yeah. So remember those human skills we talked about? Listening, giving and receiving feedback? You know.

These are the opportunities for those skills to operate. It doesn't matter if this team is a short term team or a long term team. It doesn't matter. Right. A team is not a group of people who work together. A team is a group of people who trust each other. And just because you were assigned to work with somebody doesn't mean you're a team. Yet you have to do the hard work of building a team and creating, teaming. And whether a leader is assigned or whether a leader emerges and it doesn't matter the rank.

A leader recognizes that they have a responsibility to see those around them rise. It's not about them and their glory. It's not about, I did all the work, you know. And what's fascinating is a team of average performers outperform a team of high performers every day for all of the reasons we're talking about, which is, are you in service to your team or are you in service to yourself? When I used to teach way back when.

I did Team projects. And the university advised me when, because I made the teams, I didn't let them choose. I would put my top performers on one team. I'd put my bottom performers on another team, and then I'd spread out the average because my original instinct was to take my top performers and put one of them on each team, right? And the university said, don't do that. And so I followed the university's guidance and I put all my top performers in one team. And literally, as I announced the teams and in the class, the rest of the class were like, come on. Like, I'd stack the deck. My top performers never, ever, ever got the best grade for their group projects. Never. My top performers spent more time in my office going, but I'm doing all the work, and that person's not doing the work. And is it going to affect my grade and what Stack the deck. My top performers never, ever, ever got the best grade for their group projects. Never. My top performers spent more time in my office going, but I'm doing all the work, and that person's not doing the work. And is it going to affect my grade and what happens about it? My grade, my grade. Me, me, me, me, me. The average happens about it. My grade, my grade. Me, me, me, me, me. The average performers, because they knew that they were middle of the pack, they worked together a hell of performers because they knew that they were middle of the package, they work together a hell of a lot better. And they always, every year outperform the top team Every single year because they were devoted to their team rather than themselves. They more concerned about each other's grades in the group grade rather than my grade. And so that's part of teaming. It's showing up for the team and service the team, not worrying about the disparities a lot better. And they always, every year outperform the top team Every single year because they were devoted to their team rather than themselves. They're more concerned about each other's grades in the group grade rather than my grade. And so that's part of teaming. It's showing up for the team and service team, not worrying about the disparities of who's doing work. Then brush them aside like, so what? They're going to get your grade? That means welcome to life, you know? Yeah, it's unfair. Yeah, yeah. Congratulations. Yes, it's unfair. You did all the work and they got a good grade. What do you care about them? Worry about yourself. Right? And so this is what teaming is. The hard work of teaming is actually the hard work of learning to build deep, meaningful relationships. And I guarantee you, if you can learn the skills to be a better listener, a better team player at. In your group project, you will find weird things happening in your friendships and your relationship with your parents and your siblings and your girlfriends and your boyfriends, which is. You'll notice that those relationships are getting better too, because the skills are human skills and they're transferable professionally or personally.

Yeah.

So. So the next question, again, overlap here. It's anonymous question. How can you teach others to tell apart projection from objective reality on a team? And then I think this is a separate question. Is emotional intelligence intelligence teachable? And so now, yeah, just how can you teach others to tell apart projection and objective reality? Because I think some. What you're saying was related to that. And then this other point. Is emotional intelligence teachable?

So how can you. The first question is a complicated one, because. Define reality, right?

You know.

Belief is a powerful thing.

And we are emotional animals. We are not rational animals. We do not make decisions rationally. We are deeply driven by fear and ambition and ego and insecurity that make our decisions for us.

Often even people who think that they're rational aren't rational.

And so when you talk about convincing people to tell the difference, no, it's misunderstanding how this stuff works. Your job isn't to convince anybody of anything. Your job is to understand where they're coming from. Your job is to understand their worldview. Your job is to make them feel seen and heard and understood. Your job is to have empathy, not convince, inspire, invite.

Those are words of leadership.

And sometimes if somebody, you have to allow people to go on their own journey. And if you have a different view of the world that you think is a good way for the world to be, then learn to invite people rather than exclude people. Learn to listen to people. You know, it's one of the biggest, one of the biggest coups of my own work. Now, I wasn't the first person to talk about purpose at work, right? But when I started talking about it all those years ago, talking about purpose at work sounded like some hippie dippy crap.

And I didn't use those words. And I refuse to use the words vision or mission because there's no standardized definition of what vision or mission are. And everybody had different definitions of what they are and which one comes first and which one is subordinate. And so you end up just having semantic debates, which is pointless. And so the coup was that I changed the language. I called it the why, right? Because I Talked to people who believe vision came first. And I said, well, what's vision? They said, well, it's why we get out of bed every day. And I talked to people who believe mission comes first. I said, well, what's mission? They said, well, it's why we do what we do. I talked to people who believe Brand came first or purpose came first or whatever language for the same thing. And they all had the same definition. I said, great, we'll call it the why now we can all agree. And the coup was I found language that invited people, you know, rather than me standing, trying to convince people.

And so I think that's, that's a huge part of it, which is if you're, if you're setting out to convince anybody of anything, if they have a strongly held belief, you've lost.

You've lost before you've started. It's like convince somebody who, right? Because I talk to people who believe vision came first. And I said, well, what's vision? They said, well, it's why we get out of bed every day. And I talk to people who believe mission comes first. I said, well, what's mission? They said, well, it's why we do what we do. I talk to people who believe Brand came first or purpose came first or whatever language for the same thing. And they all had the same definition. I said, great, we'll call it the why now we can all agree. And the coup was I found language that invited believes in God, that God doesn't exist. Good luck with that, right? Why not try and understand where their faith comes from and how it drives them and how, what, what value it has in their lives and the importance. And you don't have to agree with them, but you can understand them and you can learn to speak to them in their terms and you can learn to find common ground that you know, though you not may not believe the same thing as them, you also have belief and faith and in certain things. And you'll find that you actually have more in common than you don't people, you know, rather than me standing, trying to convince, that's called an invitation. But convincing Vince, people.

And so I think that's, that's a huge part of it, which is if you're, if you're setting out to convince anybody of anything, if they have a strongly held belief, you've lost.

You've lost before you've started. It's like convince somebody. Who.

Do you want to be convinced? Do you want someone to convince you that you're wrong with your deep Deep held beliefs. No, you're going to get pretty damn defensive. So it's the same when we do it the other way around.

Great. And then so the second question on that question, actually I'm going to add another question to the second question, which is, is emotional intelligence teachable? And there's another question here I like. It's so I struggle with uncomfortable conversations. Do you have any book recommendation for having uncomfortable conversations? So I feel part of this is a question.

Believes in God, that God doesn't exist. Good luck with that. Right. Why not try and understand where their faith comes from and how it drives them and how, what, what value it has in their lives and the importance about learning.

Like, you know, we're talking about these things, teachable skills. Well, we're in school, we have books, you know, which books should we go to or.

Yeah, so the first question about emotional intelligence, you don't have to agree with them, but you can understand them and you can learn to speak to them in their terms and you can learn to find common ground that you know, though you not may not believe. Is it teachable? Of course it's teachable. Can someone learn to be a parent? Of course. Right. We, you know, when you're single, I mean, you only care about yourself. And when you're a young couple, you only care about us. And then you have a new life in the world and you have to learn to put your own interests aside for the interests of another, of another human being. You have to learn empathy. You have to learn listening. You have to learn to affirm feelings. Those are all, that's all emotional intelligence. And you learned it because you're trying not to do the same thing as them. You also have belief and faith in certain things and you'll find that you actually have more in common than you don't screw this kid up. Right. And, and so yes, of course it's learnable if you want. That's called an invitation. But convincing, I'll learn it. It's not necessarily easy and it takes a lot of practice. Do you want to be convinced? Do you want someone to convince you that you're wrong with your deep hill, deep held beliefs? No, you're going to get pretty damn defensive. So it's just like only skill. You can't just like read a book and then ride a bicycle. It's like you're going to, you're gonna have to practice this stuff in real life.

And same goes with the books, which is, you know, I have a couple of books that I think Are great. Go to books for learning communication. One of them is how to. How to listen to the same when we do it the other way around.

Great. And then so the second question on that question, actually, I'm going to add another question to the second question, which is, is emotional intelligence teachable? And there's another question here I like. It's so I struggle with uncomfortable conversations. Do you have any book recommendation for having uncomfortable conversations? So I feel part of this is a question kids.

So kids will listen. How to talk to kids. So kids will listen and listen. So kids will talk. Yes, It's a parenting book and I think it's one of the best books on how to. How to talk and how to have these conversations and how to understand emotions. And it covers all these subjects. And I think you should read it for business because it's great.

And about learning, like, you know, we talk about these things. Teachable skills. Well.

Because it's all transferable skills. It's people talking to people. And turns out we're just like little kids. But the, the real, the real heavy lifting is not the reading.

We're in school. We have books. You know, which books should we go to? Or.

Yeah, so the first question about emotional intelligence and passing a test, the real heavy lifting is doing it. And if I can just take a little aside and go on a little rant on a little soapbox, you know what it means to listen. Like, how do you know you're a good listener? Like, how do you know when you're practicing listening and all of these, you know, emotional intelligence that you're supposedly learning. How do you know intelligence? Is it teachable? Of course it's teachable. Can someone learn to be a parent? Of course. Working. And the example I'll give is the concept of meditation. If anyone has ever meditated. You know, the problem with what we've done in the west is we've made meditation a selfish pursuit. Right. I need to be more grounded. I need to be more present. I need to focus the day. So I'm. I've got my meditation practice right. We, you know, when you're single, I mean, you only care about yourself. And when you're a young couple, you can only care about us. And then you have a new life in the world. And you have to learn to put your own interests aside for the interests of another. Of another human being. You have to learn empathy. You have to learn listening. You have to learn this for me, you know, get out of the mind mat. You're sitting on my meditation Mat, I'm like, I think you're missing the point, you know? But the value of meditation, though, there is huge value to the self. Absolutely. The true value of meditation is that it's a service given to others. It's a practice, right? So think about it. If you've ever meditated. One of the things you do when you meditate is you learn to focus on one thing. You can't clear your mind. That's nonsense. When they say, clear your mind, that. That doesn't exist. But you do learn to focus on one thing, whether it's your mantra or a sound or a darn, to affirm feelings. Those are all. That's all emotional intelligence. And you learned it because you're trying not to screw this kid up, right? And so, yes, of course it's learnable. If you want to learn it, it's not necessarily easy. And it takes a lot of practice. On the wall or your breath, it doesn't matter. You're focusing on one thing. And when you get distracted, you learn to bring yourself back to that one thing. And when you have a thought, you learn to label it a thought put out of your mind and say, I'll deal with that later. And you go back to focusing on one thing. And the amazing thing is you feel really present and grounded at the end of it. But that skill that you're learning is for the benefits. Like any skill, you can't just read a book and then ride a bicycle. It's like you're going to be fit of others. You are not present until someone else says you are. So when you're having a conversation with a friend who's telling you about their good day or their bad day, their relationship struggles or their troubles with their roommate, whatever it is, because you've been practicing meditation, you've learned to focus on one thing and one thing only. What they're telling you. And when you hear a noise on the side, you ignore it. You've learned to put that aside. And when you have a thought, you don't feel compelled to say it or wait for your turn to speak. You learn to put that thought out of your mind and say, I'll get to it later. Right now, I'm focused. Focused on one thing and one thing only. At the end of that conversation, your friend will say to you, thank you for listening. I feel so heard. Thank you for being present. You're gonna have to practice this stuff in real life.

And same goes with the books, which is, you know, I have a couple of books that I Think are great. Go to books for learning communication. One of them is how to. How to listen to kids so kids will listen. How to talk to kids so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk. Yeah. Congratulations. All that work that you did with your meditation practice is now bearing fruit for this. It's a parenting book and I think it's one of the best books on how to. How to talk and how to have these conversations and how to understand emotions. And it covers all these subjects. And I think you should read it for business because it's great this one day that you made someone else feel seen and heard and understood. And that is really the goal of all of this stuff that we're talking about. Whether it's empathy or emotional intelligence, the benefit is always for others. That's what it is. And so yes, you learn them, but you.

Because it's all transferable skills. It's people talking to people. And turns out we're just like little kids have to practice them. And you don't know that it's working until somebody else has told you this is working.

Great way to think about meditation. Okay, well, as expected, there's, there's, there's a bunch, there's a number of Brandeis questions in here. So I'm, I'm just going to bring it down to two. First Brandeis question is did your time.

But the real heavy lifting is not.

The reading Brandeis help you learn to have these conversations. And the second one is what were some clarifying moments during your Brandeis days as a student that have helped to shape your career and, or personal aspirations and accomplishments?

So one of the. So remember I went to Brandeis in a time where the Internet was just. And passing a test. The real heavy lifting is doing it. And if I can just take a little aside and go on a little rant on a little soapbox, you know what it means to listen. Like, how do you know you're a good listener? Like, how do you know when you're practicing listening and all the darting. So we didn't have social media and we didn't have cell phones. These, you know, emotional intelligence that you're supposedly learning. How do you know it's so slightly different context as well, about how the value working and the example I'll give is the concept of meditation value of emotional intelligence, how it works. Right? Because I think it's more complicated now for sure. And I think that the youth of today have more disadvantages in, in, in, you know, like when you're feeling a little bit Lonely. You can retreat to social media, you know, and you can avoid having to have difficult conversations. You can turn. If anyone has ever meditated. You know, the problem with what we've done in the west is we've made meditation a selfish pursuit. Right. I need to be more grounded. I need to be more present. I need to focus the day. So I'm. I've got my meditation practice for me, you know, get out of the mind mat. You're sitting on my meditation mat. I'm like, I think you're missing on your TikTok. And cry to your cell phone in your room by yourself. And you can get lots of likes and external affirmation, but that's not vulnerability. Go have that exact same conversation and cry to the. The friend that hurt you. That's way more difficult. And I think we avoid those conversations because it's just easier and I think unbalanced. Not exclusively, but on balance, we see a younger generation the point, you know. But the value of meditation, though there is huge value to the self. Absolutely. The true generation that's very afraid of being uncomfortable, they like to avoid discomfort, unbalance. And so one of the things that I learned at Brandeis was being uncomfortable. Value of meditation is that it's a service given to others. It's a practice, this, right? So think about it if you've ever meditated. One of the things you do when you meditate is you learn to focus on one thing. You can't clear your mind. That's nonsense. When they say clear your mind, that. That doesn't exist. But you do learn to focus on one thing, whether it's your mantra or a sound or a dot. You know, I've got a roommate. For the first time, I had a roommate who I signed up to live with a non smoker. Okay? My roommate signed up to be with a non smoker. Turns out my roommate was a smoker who didn't want to live with a smoker. You're an asshole. Right? So now I got to live with a smoker, right? I had to learn to live with that. I had to learn to live with a roommate that used to screw with my stuff out on the wall or your breath, it doesn't matter. You're focusing on one. Because he thought it was cool with his friends. And so, like he would just. I. He'd like just thing. And when you get distracted, you learn to bring yourself back to that one thing. And when you have a thought, you learn to label it a thought put out of your mind and say, I'll deal with that later. And you go back to focusing on one thing. And the amazing thing is is you feel really present and grounded at the end of it. But that skill that you're learning is for the benefit of my stuff. And so I learned to not believe in revenge, right? I learned not to believe in revenge. And the reason is simple is because when we did have a fight, I could say you did this and this and this and this. And he couldn't say anything because I don't believe in revenge. I didn't do anything bad, right? I learned that skill because of my, my, my useless roommate my freshman year at Brandeis. I had to learn it. It was a survival mechanism. Otherwise I'm going to be screaming, yelling all the time, right? Fit of others. You are not present until someone else and I'm going to two rights don't make a wrong. I had to learn that too, right? But one of the best lessons I learned at Brandeis and one of the great things about Brandeis as a relatively small school you have relatively small class sizes says you are so when you're having a conversation with a friend who's telling you about their good day and more importantly you have very, very small student to teacher ratios. You know our classes are. Or their bad day, their relationship struggles or there's troubles. Troubles with by professors. You go to Harvard, they're going to be taught by TAs because all of the good professors go work with the graduate students, right? Their roommate, whatever it is because you've been practicing meditation, you've learned to focus on one thing and one thing only. What they're. So you get access to brilliant, brilliant people in small class sizes. This is amazing. This is a gift. And one of the things that I learned was that I have. I am allowed to disagree with someone who has more degrees and more letters at the end of their name than I do. As long as I can make a connelling you and when you hear a noise on the side, you ignore it. You've learned to put that aside. And when you have a thought, you don't. Constructive and respectful arguments. Screaming and yelling is not the way I disagree. Telling somebody that they're wrong is not the way I disagree. But mounting an argument in a respectful way is something I learned at Brandeis. So I would feel compelled to say it or wait for your turn to speak. You learn to put that thought out of your mind and say I'll get to it later. Right now I'm focused on one thing and one thing only. At the End of that conversation. Your friend will say to you, thank you for listening. I feel so heard. Thank you for being present, have the emotion to disagree. But I had to learn how to disagree in a constructive way. Very grateful to Brandeis for giving me that and that I could do it in these small class sizes where I could talk direct. Congratulations. All that work that you did with your meditation practice is now bearing fruit for this one day that you made someone else feel seen and heard and understood. And that lead to the authority.

So super grateful for a lot of the human skills that I learned at Brandeis. And I think one of the great things that we learn in college, whether, you know, you know, there's a lot of debate whether college is useless or not in this modern day and age. And yes, I mean, the studying part may or may not be useful, is really the goal of all of this stuff that we're talking about. Whether it's empathy or emotional intelligence. The benefit is all but the. It's a halfway house to the real world, you know, And I think that you're learning to transition to a place for others. That's what it is. And so yes, you learn them, but, but you adulthood, you're learning to transit, transition to independence. And most importantly, you learn to think critically. You know, where college is very different than high school and the way professors talk to you and the way you can talk to your professors is very different than high school. And critical thinking is the thing you need to do. And you're talking to professors who don't necessarily know the answers themselves. And I have to practice them. And you don't know that it's working until somebody else has about talked, told you this is working.

Great way to think about meditation. Okay, well, as expected, there's a bunch, there's a number of Brandeis questions in here. So I'm just gonna bring it down to two. First Brandeis question is, did your time.

In high school, they know all the answers, right? And so you're about. It's about problem solving. And that's really hard. When sometimes there is no right answer.

That'S even harder. You're doing work in your category where sometimes there actually is no answer. And so what you're teaching is how to think, not what the answer is. And that skill, how to think rather than know the answer for the test, is more valuable in my life than pretty much anything I've ever learned.

Yeah. Thank you. Brandeis help you learn to have these conversations. And the second one is what were some clarifying moments during your Brandeis days as a student that have helped to shape your career and or personal aspirations and accomplishments.

So one of the. So remember I went to Brandeis in a time where the Internet was just.

All right, this could be a tricky question. So this is from Izzy. You've been on many podcasts and have had many thought leaders on your podcast. Who's been your favorite speaker to talk to or someone who has totally changed your mind about something?

I mean, I don't, I don't think there's a favorite. I don't think that's, you know, there are some that stand out that, you know, they've challenged a point of view that I have or have given me a new way to think about something person I talked to. Regarding. So we didn't have social media and we didn't have cell phones. So slightly different context as well about how the value recently was about.

Turning, turning.

Anxiety into something positive. Right? That anxiety is not necessarily a bad thing. And we had a whole conversation about that. And the thing that you have emotional intelligence, how it works, right? Because I think it's more complicated now for sure. And I think that the youth that I took away from that, that I absolutely love.

Is.

Is that we talk about mental health all the time today have more disadvantages in, in, in, you know, like when you feel. And the problem with the term mental health is it's, we treat it like it's the goal that if you're anything other than perfect, there's something wrong, feeling a little bit lonely, you can retreat to social media, you know, and you can avoid having to have difficult conversations. You can turn on your TikTok and cry to your cell phone in your room by yourself and you can get lots of likes and external affirmation. But with you, right, which of course is nonsense, right? That if, if you're anything other than happy, that that's not vulnerability, go have that exact same conversation and cry to the, the friend that hurt you. That's waste of time. Then, then you're, then you're struggling with your mental health. We know when we, when we're, when we do physical fitness, sometimes your muscles hurt, sometimes you have a good workout, sometimes you have a bad workout, sometimes you're strong, sometimes you're weak, sometimes you get a ton of sleep and you can't work out. Sometimes you're more difficult. And I think we avoid those conversations because it's just easier. You got no sleep and you're like on fire. You have the best run of your life and we don't call. There's no goal, it's fitness. Like it's, I think, unbalanced. Not exclusively, but on balance we see a younger generation. You're constantly working. And I think I stopped calling it mental health and I started calling it mental fitness. And so having emotions, having a down day, being depressed, you know, feeling lonely, like all of these things are fine and they're totally healthy. If you get stuck in any one of them, that's a problem. But by the way, if you get stuck in happiness, that's a problem too, you know? And so I think we have to work on our mental fitness, which is learning how to have feelings, learning how to just be in our feelings.

Because I think we've set up an unrealistic expectation generation that's very afraid of being uncomfortable. They like to avoid discomfort, unbalance. And so one of the things that I learned at Brandeis was being uncomfortable. You know, I've got a roommate for the first time. I had a roommate who I signed up to live with a non smoker, okay? My roommate signed up to be with ourselves, that if you have a negative feeling, there's something wrong with you. If you have a negative feeling, turns out you're human.

And I think the biggest skill that's lacking in all of that is learning how to ask for help. That when we do have negative feelings, where the first thing we should be doing is reaching out to a friend, we don't. And I have a rule with my friends and all my friends know this, which is no crying alone.

The non smoker. Turns out my roommate was a smoker who didn't want to live with a smoker.

And I've had some people who are well known entrepreneurs who, you know, many of your class will know. And we've had experiences where the phone rings and they say, can I talk to you? I go, of course. What's on? What's going on? And they start crying because that's the rule. No crying alone. And we lean on each other very, very heavily because none of us is stupid enough to believe we can do this thing called life or asshole, right? So now I got to live with a smoker, right? I had to learn to live with that. I had to learn to live with a roommate that used to screw with my stuff because he thought it was cool with his friends. And so like he would just, I, he'd like just entrepreneurship or career by ourselves, just not that good, not that strong. And so talking, talking about anxiety, that that episode really helped frame some of the stuff that That I work through.

Yeah. Thank you.

So screw with my stuff. And so I learned to not believe in revenge.

Here's a question about tying some of these things in very much to what's going on in society at large. So question is, when starting the Curve, how did you persuade the police and sheriffs to share their opinions and cooperate to improve the policing culture? And statistically, in your opinion, how has the Curve changed the profession of policing?

I learned not to believe in revenge. And the reason is simple is because when we did have a fight, I could say, you did this and this and this and this. And he couldn't say anything because I don't believe in revenge. I didn't do anything back. Right. I learned that skill because of my, my, my useless roommate my freshman year in America. So thanks for bringing that up. So the Curve is a. Is a charity that I found at Brandeis. I had to learn it. It was a survival mechanism. Otherwise I'm going to be screaming, yelling all the time. Time right founded that is devoted to modernizing and I'm going to two rights. Don't make a wrong. I had to learn that too. Right. But one of the best lessons I learned at Brandeis and one of the great things about Brandeis as a relatively small school, you have relatively small class sizes policing today and evolving their cultures from the inside out. You know, there's a lot of pressure on the outside to change policing, but there needs to be more pressure. There needs to be more work from changing policing from the inside of the organizations. So I going back and more importantly, you have a very, very small student to teacher ratios. You know, our classes are tacked to all the conversation we've already had. I didn't convince anybody of anything. I taught by professors. You go to Harvard, they're going to be taught by TAs because all of the good professors go work with the graduate students. Right. Talked about what I believed. I talked about what I stood for. And chiefs and sheriffs came to me and said, hey, we've been using leaders eat last to help completely change our policing organization based on your work. Thank you. And I said, you get access to brilliant, brilliant people in small class sizes. This is amazing. This is a gift. And one of the things that I learned was that I am allowed to like to learn more. And so my work served as an invitation. My work served as a lighthouse. My degree with someone who has more degrees and more letters at the end of their name than I do. As long as I can make a public words and how I believe Organizations should operate attracted the right kinds of police chiefs and sheriffs. And so the, the all of the founding members of the Curve are chiefs and sheriffs from across the country. Constructive and respectful arguments. Screaming and yelling is not the way I disagree. Telling somebody, Republicans and Democrats from across the whole country who we share a common value set even though we may see the world differently and we all are devoted to teaching the skills of leadership inside policing, which are desperately, desperately lacking. Leadership inside the policing profession is about 20 years behind. That's how bad it is. And so that's where we're starting. Where that they're wrong is not the way I disagree. But mounting an argument in a respectful way is something I learned at Brandeis. So I would have the emotion to disagree, but I had to learn how to disagree in a constructive way. Starting with some of the basics like what is a leader and promoting people because they're good leaders, not because they very grateful to Brandeis for giving me that and that I could do it in these small class sizes where I could talk directly to the authority.

So super grateful for a lot of the human skills that I learned at Brandeis. Passed a test.

The more I've learned about it, it is an unbelievably complicated problem. You know, there's 18,000 police forces in the United States of which the vast majority are fewer than 75 cops. So most of them are pretty small agencies. And there's no national police chief. There's no like one person who'd be like we are going to change policing like this. It doesn't exist. There's no national standards. There's no national standards for training. I mean it's a madhouse.

And so, and so we're, the reason we're called the Curve is because we're leveraging the law of diffusion. We're looking for all those early adopter chiefs and sheriffs to create a critical mass. And I think one of the great things that we learn in college whether, you know, you know, there's a lot of debate whether college is useless or not in this modern day that we can change the whole profession. And so when you're asked, when the question asks is what impact have we made? The cool thing is we're gaining momentum and more and more chiefs and sheriffs are reaching out to us, saying I want to do something different. This isn't working. I don't know where to start. Can you help? And the fact that they're open minded to something different and new is hugely inspiring in age. And yes, I Mean, the studying part may or may not be useful, but it's a halfway house to the real world.

And I think that you're learning to transition to adulthood. You're learning to transition to independence. And most importantly. But the. But the challenge is astronomical in its scope and complexity.

So I think this is our final question. So the previous question, and if somebody.

You learn to think critically, you know, where college is very different than high school, and the way professors talk to you and the way you can talk to your professors is very different than high school. Wants to learn more about the curve. Check out thecurve.org, thecurve.org and you can read about my philosophies on policing and what needs to be done and any support you want to give. You want to volunteer and help out, I'll take it.

Awesome. So this question, I feel he flips it.

And critical thinking is the thing you need to do. And you're talking to professors who don't necessarily know the answers themselves.

Not takes it out of policing, but flips it. You know, the curve, the sheriffs, the leaders, the chiefs is what you just talked about.

They know all the answers. Right. And so you're about. It's about problem solving, and that's really hard. When sometimes there is no right answer.

That'S even harder. You're doing work in Europe.

The question here is, as a young person in the working world, I'm frustrated by how often the ego of leaders gets in the way of positive change within organizations. How can employees influence leaders per category.

Sometimes there actually is no answer. And so what you're teaching is how.

To think who may not see the issues with their decisions, but are also not open to feedback.

Okay. You're not going to like my answer, and you'll notice a consistency in all of my answers. You cannot change their point of view. Right. No number of anonymously sent books will change their mind. Right. Though I encourage you to keep trying.

You know, no angry conversations or meetings will change. It's just not what the answer is. And that skill, how to think rather than know the answer for the test, is more valuable in my life than pretty much anything I've ever learned.

Yeah. Thank you. All right, this. This could be a tricky question. So this is from Izzy. You've been on many podcasts and have had many thought leaders on your podcast. Who's been your favorite speaker to talk to?

Gonna happen. All right. And so you're barking up the wrong tree. Right? It's not about how do I change My leader, it's how do I be?

Or someone who has totally changed your mind about something.

I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't think there's a favorite. I don't think that's, you know, there are some that stand out that, you know, they've challenged a point of view that I have or have given me a new way to think about something. Person I talked to recently was about.

Turning, turning.

Anxiety, the leader I wish I had. Leadership has nothing to do with rank. Rank affords you authority, that's it. But it doesn't make you a leader, right? Leadership is the awesome responsibility to see those around us rise. And if you have rank, if you have authority, you can just lead at scale. And so what you want to do is be the leader you wish you had and you were not going to change somebody 2, 3, 4 levels up who disagrees and doesn't, who ignores all of the stuff that I'm talking about, right? Like we've lost them, right? Or they'll come, they'll have their come to Jesus moment a different way, right? Which sometimes happens. But if you lead, if you are the leader you wish you had, and this is why I want to see young people, if they go through discomfort or they have a leader who's, they don't buy into, please don't quit, right? Please stay there and practice the difficult magical idea into something positive, right? That anxiety is not necessarily a bad thing. And we had a whole conversation about that. And the thing that I took away from that and I absolutely love.

Is.

That we talk about mental health all the time. And the problem with the term mental health is it's, we treat a wonderful, honorable skill of leadership with your team. Even if you're the most junior person, you have somebody to the left of you and you have somebody to the right of you. And you can commit to seeing that they feel seen, heard and understood. You can commit to helping them achieve their goals. You can commit to making them feel like someone has their back in difficult times. You can commit to helping them and you can commit to helping ensure that when they go home at the end of the day that they feel fulfilled and they had a good day at work. That's called leadership. And when you start to find is if you can do that, you can develop that skill set that these little teams start to be higher performing, they start to get along better, the teaming starts to happen really well and leadership will either ignore you because you're doing fine, or they may surprise you and be like, what are they doing down there? I'm really curious. They mean, like, it's the goal that if you're anything other than perfect, there's something wrong with you, right? Which of course is nonsense, right? That if, if you're anything other than happy all the time, then, then you're, then you're struggling with your mental health. When we know, when we, when we're, when we do physical fitness, sometimes your muscles hurt, sometimes you have a good workout, they actually come and learn from you. And eventually one of you is going to get promoted out of that group and go to another team and they're going to take all the skills they learn from you and they're going to bring them to their new team. And now you're going to have two high performing, wonderful teams that are highly trusting and magical. And then three and then five, and then 10. Before you know it, the tail wags the dog. And this is the, one of the hardest things. Sometimes you have a bad workout, sometimes you're strong, sometimes you're weak, sometimes you've got a ton of sleep and you can't work out. Sometimes things I think young people struggle with. Which is, which is, we're talking about a long term mindset. We're talking about an infinite mindset here, which is you got no sleep and you're like on fire. You have the best run of your life. And we don't call, there's no goal, it's fitness. Like it's something you're constantly working. And I think I stopped calling it mental health and I started calling it mental fitness. And so having emotions, having a down day, being depressed, you know, feeling lonely, like all of these things are fine and they're. The speed at which it takes for the tail to wag the dog is unpredictable. The reason a lot of businesses ignore all of my work is not because it's wrong or they disagree, it's because they want it to work on the day they want it to work. Which is the exact same thing as saying to me, simon, I'm exercising and I need to be healthy on this exact day, on this exact time, I'm like totally healthy. If you get stuck in any one of them, that's a problem. But by the way, I mean, maybe it'll work out that way. You know, it's like every doctor will tell you if you work out 20 minutes a day for the rest of your life, you're going to be super healthy. Right? But on which day, on what day you're healthy, on what day your Blood, you know, your blood pressure gets better, nobody knows. Sometimes quick, sometimes slow, I don't know. But you have to commit to the process. You get stuck in happiness. That's a problem too, you know, and, and so I think we have to work on our mental fitness, which is learning how to have feelings, learning how to just in be in our feelings.

Because I think we've set up an unrealistic expectation. And 100% of the time the process works, I just don't know when. And leadership is the same, a hundred percent. It works. I just don't know when. And people come quickly and people come slowly. So you may convert an entire organization in a year, or you may just simply for ourselves that if you have a negative feeling, there's something wrong with you. If you have a negative feeling, turns out you're human.

And we build the momentum that it'll continue without you, but you won't get to see it change. That's possible too.

So.

But the most important thing is to commit to the regime. Like brushing your teeth, you know, brushing your teeth every day. Brushing your teeth does nothing unless you do it all the time, every day. Can I take a night off? Yes, you can. It won't do any damage. How many nights can I take off? I don't know. And neither does any dentist. Just not too many. Right. Same thing. Commit to the regime. Be the leader you wish you had. Don't worry about. I think the biggest skill that's lacking in all of that is learning how to ask for help. That when we do have negative feelings, where the first thing we should be do is reaching out to a friend. We don't. And I have a rule with my friends and all my friends know this, which is no crying alone.

And I've had some people who are well known entrepreneurs who, you know, many of you're convincing other people.

Perfect. Thank you so much. I did also just want to mention. I think I should have said this at the outset, but I did also want to thank the International Business School, School, Hyatt Career center and Brandeis Alumni association for bringing us all together today to share this experience and opportunity to listen to Simon Sinek. Simon, thank you so much. It's been great. Really appreciate your perspective on, on all these questions and yeah, I, I don't, I don't know if the students can say thank you. I think actually as participants, we can't hear them, we can't, we can't listen. But I know that everyone thanks you.

So well, some of them anyway.

Exactly.

You're Very welcome. Thanks for having me. It's nice to be back at Brandeis, hopefully soon in person. And until then, take care of yourself and take care of each other. Thanks very much for having me.

Great. Thank you so much. Bye, everyone.

Class will know. And we've had experiences where the phone rings and they say, can I talk to you? Go. Of course. What's on? What's going on? And they start crying, because that's the rule. No crying alone. And we lean on each other very, very heavily because none of us is stupid enough to believe we can do this thing called life or entrepreneurship or career by ourselves. Just not that good. Not that strong.

And so talking. Talking about anxiety, that that episode really helped frame some of the stuff that. That I work through.

Yeah. Thank you. So here's a question about tying some of these things in very much to what's going on in society at large. So question is, when starting the Curve, how did you persuade the police and sheriffs to share their opinions and cooperate to improve the policing culture? And statistically, in your opinion, how has the Curve changed the profession of policing in America?

So thanks for bringing that up. So the Curve is a. Is a charity that I founded that is devoted to modernizing policing today and evolving their cultures from the inside out. You know, there's a lot of pressure on the outside to change policing, but there needs to be more pressure. There needs to be more work from changing policing from the inside of the organizations. So I, going back to all the conversation we've already had, I didn't convince anybody of anything. I talked about what I believed. I talked about what I stood for. And chiefs and sheriffs came to me and said, hey, we've been using leaders eat last to help completely change our policing organization based on your work. Thank you. And I said, I'd like to learn more. And so my work served as an invitation. My work served as a lighthouse. My public words and how I believe organizations should operate attracted the right kinds of police chiefs and sheriffs. And so the. All of the founding members of the Curve are chiefs and sheriffs from across the country, Republicans and Democrats from across the whole country, who we share a common value set, even though we may see the world differently. And we all are devoted to teaching the skills of leadership inside policing, which are desperately, desperately lacking. Leadership inside the policing profession is about 20 years behind. That's how bad it is. And so that's where we're starting. We're starting with some of the basics, like what is a leader and promoting people because they're good leaders, not because they passed a test.

The more I've learned about it, it is an unbelievable.