https://www.listennotes.com/e/acaadbd59b78495a9edceefa924af630

Foreign.

What's up, everybody?

Welcome to another killer episode of the Surfing Sales podcast. I am Scott Lease here with my good friend and co host Richard Harris. How's it going, my man?

It's good. Like, this is like old times. It's almost like we live together. I've seen you three times this week. I've spent three hours this week with Scott.

It's almost like we work together again.

It's almost, it is almost like that. So I just, I wish we were closer. I sincerely, sincerely, I wish we could hang out more one day.

We just gotta get, we just gotta get rid of the kids. We got like four more years and then we can go wherever, you know.

Well, you guys gotta put on more of the, the surfing sales events. That way you guys meet up.

Oh, believe me, we've talked about it.

Wait a second. All of a sudden, John, I feel like he's a board member and he's just telling us to grow faster. I'm feeling a lot of pressure here all of a sudden.

Oh, I also want to hear about the Portugal one. I saw that coming up.

Well, speaking of the Portugal one, if you have not checked it out or haven't heard yet, surf and sales summit is headed to Europe in October. October 5th through 9th, we will be in Portugal on the coast, based out of Peniche, Portugal, hitting up places like Ericera, Santa Cruz and even Nazare. So check it out.

Are you really going to Nazare?

We're not going to surf in Nazare, Richard, but we're going to take a little trip and show people, you know, the crazy. We're going to stand at the base. We're going to stand at the base of the mountain and just look in wonder, you know?

Right, right. That, by the way, that's, that's the one thing of the, of the. What will Scott do and Richard do where Normally I do 99% of them, that's the one thing I won't do is Nazareth. So. Nor is it on my bucket list.

It's not on my bucket list either. That's not a bucket list. That's a list. I'm dead once I get in the water.

That's true, that's true. That's a good point.

We are brought to you by our good friends at Winai. Always be winning close more deals by making your funnel faster, smarter and smoother. Automate data, capture seamless CRM updates and AI generated emails. Streamline all your favorite sales tools in one. At Winai, we are joined today by a friend and special guest. He is the founder and CEO of Level Up Leads. His name is Mr. John Carson. Welcome to the show, John.

Thanks for having me on, guys. Appreciate it.

And really, really good to see you again. I want to know briefly give us a little bit of detail about Level Up Leads. I know you've been working on this for a little bit now, man. It's been a couple of years, actually almost four years you've been, you've been running this business, so.

Exactly.

Tell everybody what Level Up Leads is all about.

Yeah. So we are a sales development and appointment setting agency. So companies hire us to go out and implement campaigns for them. We supply the team, the tech stack, everything they need to get up and running in just a few weeks. And you know, rather than having to do that all themselves. And the end goal is that we're giving their sales team more selling opportunities. We're booking demos in their calendar.

Okay, I'm going to ask you a tough, hard hitting question straight away.

Yeah, all right.

I know it for what you do. I have seen reports and data that that shows only 8% of people who engage with firms in and around yours, not your fir firm, specifically in and around yours. Only 8% of companies who engage with them report a positive experience and success story. Why do you think that is?

I think a lot of people are looking for quick wins and they think just by outsourcing with a company that that's going to happen. And so I think it's, it goes both ways. But it's on us to ask the questions on what are their expectations, what are their goals, do they have revenue targets and if it's not realistic, just because we've run these for many companies that it's on us to turn them away or point them to someone else. The hard part is like, it's also really hard to know what will work and what won't. So I've been really wrong with engaging with companies and kind of going internally like, ah, I don't think this is going to work. And now they're a case study on our website. On the flip side, I've also been like, oh, this company's pretty good. I think we're gonna, we're gonna do well. They have a good name for themselves and it doesn't. And so like, I don't know, it's really hard to tell without actually starting to see, see what results will be like, how are you, how do you.

Work on refining your ICP then when it's so tricky like that for us internally, for You. Right.

Well, that's the tough part is you can work with just about anybody. So anything from like an actual physical product to a service to a SaaS. And so that's the tough part. It's more like understanding their deal size. Do they have a healthy enough deal size for this to make sense? At the end of the day, it's about them making more sales. And so they need to have a big enough deal size based on the spend, their, you know, their monthly spend with us. And we need to give them enough opportunities for this to make sense. If someone has less than a 10 or 15k deal size, it typically won't make sense because we won't be bringing them enough meetings for it to make sense. So it works out better when we have a company that has a much, much bigger deal size.

So you have to get real clear on your sort of disqualification criteria. You're asking these specific questions, like around average sales price, for example, so that hopefully helps you work with clients that you're more likely to have success for. But there's got to be a lot of bad actors out there who are just taking the money basically and saying, hey, I think that we can help. And then they can't help people for whatever reason. And then that sours the market for everybody else and creates this narrative around, oh, don't work with outsourced agencies, they don't work, et cetera, et cetera. And then you have to try to overcome all of that.

Right, yeah, it's true.

Yes, that's.

Well, here. I mean, like, so SDRs, whether you're hiring internally or using an outsourced agency, there's a lot of turnover regardless, so we kind of fall into that bucket. We just do it at a cheaper cost than them. Doing it internally so they can get quicker to the market, um, and get results faster. Doesn't mean that it will always be the results they want. But if you do it internally, there's a lot more risk and it's a lot more expensive. Um, but the idea is that, you know, we're at least doing enough qualification on our end to be ahead of time or at least get like, getting their expectations lower down to reality. Because, like, we typically will do, like, we'll tell people, like, on average, well, you should see somewhere between like one to three meetings a week. But it really depends. Like, I don't know, I need to learn more about your product. Have you done this before? Like, there's a lot of companies that have never actually done outbound before. So you're kind of starting from scratch with some of them. If they have a more defined process and numbers they can share. There's always. It's just so much easier to get some numbers together and then start from there. But a lot of these companies will be like, oh, I don't know. This is a new product for us. We've never done outreach in the United States before. And so you're kind of starting from scratch with them.

Do you. I'm gonna ask you. I think you'll understand why I'm asking the question. Let's say someone called you for advice and they, they were asking you, and it's something different, totally different than what you do. What advice would you give someone who's trying to run a business in what could be conceived or perceived as a highly commoditized industry?

Just some examples of other companies.

What would you, what would you do to help them tell their story differently? What would you advise them to do to tell their story differently?

Well, what's funny is I actually have some kids in their young 20s, I call them kids. I'm 37.

Twenties, so I just turned.

37 this, this week. But they're younger. They're staying with me right now. I started a side business with them, but they also have their own business. And so we're actually at, at dinner talking about this because they're in their marketing agencies, not similar to mine, but different. Just with E Commerce and stuff like that. And just like my company, there's a lot of other companies out there that do the same stuff. So they're, they're just getting started in theirs. And I was there to, asking me advice on what to do. And I was like, look, you gotta figure out a way to stand out and build trust with people and you can't be so hungry for like, the early revenue. Like, you gotta get some, like, some customers on your, like on your side that will go in to do whether, like case studies. You also have to have like, people on your team or not on your team, but like customers, past customers, or current customers that will speak on your behalf. And like, you need to be trustworthy. Like, people don't know who to decide because there's 30 different options out there. You need to have all those case studies reviews. You need to have a good social presence. Like, I just think it makes decision making easier when they come to evaluate.

So. So of course, now I'll flip it back to you. Is that what you do? Do you feel like. Because, Because I feel like everybody had like, first of all. Whenever we talk to someone, we can all be commoditized, right? Like, everybody initially, their first thought is, oh, you're just like, so and so. That's just how human nature is, right? Need a frame of reference. In your world, my world, Scott's world, there are definitely people who do the same things we do. What do you do with intent to make sure you are different and can carry that message forward to your prospects and customers? Because I think everybody needs a lesson in that.

Over time, I've adjusted the services of what we offer and I've also, I would like to think, improved the quality. So, for example, one being we only hire native English speakers now in the. Not all Americans. There's actually some of our top performers are from Ireland or the uk Just their accent does really well. But like, before, we didn't do that. It was just like, did they speak well? Did they have a little experience on the phone? So, like, how can you stand out a little bit? Okay, one small little thing is, hey, look, we have native English speakers from the States calling into the States. So like, little things like that, it was people. It's actually more of a request than you would think. Okay. If I'm going to work with you, I want to have an American on my team or I want to have American on the phones. The little things like that to stand out. Now, that's small, but I also think like, building up the. The brand. And if someone goes and types your name into Google or they go to your website, like that all should be in line. Like professional website reviews on whatever clutch or G2. I just started a podcast. Cause my. My YouTube channel is empty. And so like, yeah, I'm like a few months into that. I'm not really like that concerned about views and stuff. But that's just like one more thing that looks good. You can start interviewing people and then you can start clipping that up and sharing it on social. I just think, like, covering your grounds across different channels and, you know, looking professional will go a long way.

Cool. That's good stuff. That's good.

Do you worry at all or spend any time thinking about the trend of phone and email struggling or not performing as well as it used to and what that means for the future of a business like yours and how you might have to adopt, adapt. Excuse me. Or change things up? Or are you just like, whatever, I'm gonna let other people worry about that. I'm gonna do what we do until it stops working, until the wheels fall off the bus.

I think it's good to, to have other options, you know, not, not put all your eggs in one basket. And over time I've, I've done that. Like, there was a time when I never offered cold calling, and now I don't think we have one client that isn't using cold calling out of the different channels. So, like, there was a time when we just did email or LinkedIn and if I stuck with that, just guessing here, I'd probably shut down the company. If I just stuck with that, it's just not working very well. Cold calling is driving 80, 90% of our results for our clients. Now if that channel goes down, yeah, we have some other stuff like start offering SEO. But yeah, it would be, that would, we'd be in trouble if that happened tomorrow. So, yeah, you got to start thinking like, and that's probably my responsibility too. And you guys are always sharing stuff about this on socials, like, where is it going? What can you do to stay ahead? What are you testing? But yeah, it is a concern of mine. Right. If, if for whatever reason, AI no longer became illegal to cold call, which I don't think it ever will, but right now it is. But if, let's just say they reversed that and everyone started making AI calls, our service would no longer be very important.

Yeah.

Other than, other than the ability to navigate a conversation better than AI. But let's just hope, let's just hope that never happens. I don't think we want our cell phones ringing every other five minutes.

They're already, that's already bad enough, right? There are certain exemptions to that, to that law. Yeah. It's interesting because I, I, how often do you run into. I assume it's a lot. You do your job, you set the appointments, and they just suck at sales, and then they want to blame you. Right. Which is the equal of being a, you know, a director of sales and my VP or CRO saying, you know, we need more stuff in the funnel. It's the SDR's fault, when in fact it's kind of not. It's a conversion of conversation fault.

That can depend on the company. So some companies will look at it like, look, you did your job. It's on us to sell. Other companies will look at it like that, but then their board or CEO or whoever they're reporting to doesn't get, doesn't care. It's just like, look, we're spending money here. It's not leading to sales, so we're going to cut it. Other companies are more like, look, they're doing their job. Maybe this is something internally and we need to swap out our sales guys or give them better training. So a little bit depends on the company, on how they approach that.

Do you? I want to sort of come out of this right. We spent a lot of time talking about this particular part of the industry. But, you know, let's just talk about your entrepreneurial spirit. Right. Where did it come from? Were you always an entrepreneur? You know, what led you to this? And not necessarily. It could be this, what you're doing. It could also be this, like, I don't want to work for somebody else. Like, I'll let you sort of decipher that.

Yeah. So in 2015, I moved down to Argentina to travel around. I had quit my job. I previously taught tennis for a while and while that was fun and I liked it, it wasn't what I want to do forever. So travel around for a while. And that was when I met my girlfriend who's now my wife. But at the time I was like, well, if I want to continue this relationship, I need to get a remote job. And in 2015, that wasn't that common. Yeah, it was out there, but it was just much more difficult. So I got one and it was in solar lead generation. And so that was really good experience. It was a small startup and I learned a lot. And from there I just worked at other startups, full sales cycle, scrappy. I just really was just thrown in there and had to figure things out on my own. And. And then I worked for, you know, fast forward maybe five or six years. I worked for an outbound agency out of Ukraine. And that was pre Covid. And then during COVID and then in the middle of COVID I was like, you know, I was financially stable and willing to risk it. If even if it didn't work out, I still had the confidence to go get a new job pretty quick. So I was like, hey, why not just start this? And worst case scenario, a few months go by or whatever, six months go by and I lose some money and I go get a new job. Now, luckily that never happened, but that was kind of the, the when I was able to always have that.

Did you always have that confidence, risk taking ability or did something, did something change at some point in the, in the journey to have that mindset of, well, what's the worst thing that could happen?

Yeah, not really. I'm not like a huge risk taker. I don't know why. I just felt more comfortable in doing so. Like, you know, like I'M lucky I didn't have any college debt. I, you know, fairly careful with my money and was saving and working remotely during COVID What was I doing? All I did was doing is working and making dinner. Like I wasn't, I wasn't doing that much and I had had the financial stability to be like, look, I don't really care. Plus it's not that expensive to spin up a company like this. So even if it, you know, I don't have, you know, soft. There's software and people, those are my costs. So. Yeah, it's funny, I did a reading a long time ago and like, you know, reading like a, a psychic type of thing and she said I was going to be an entrepreneurial and I just like kind of shrugged it off and then I like look back, I was like, oh damn, she was right. It wasn't like a planned out thing.

We should go back and visit her. She got, she got it right. We should ask a few questions. Richard.

Yeah, she's actually. Go ahead.

I'm sorry, I was going to say some other people, my family have done readings with her and she's actually pretty spot on in a lot of things. It's kind of spooky.

I was thinking we should maybe have someone come to surf and sales and do one. Like find a local person and make that one of our activities. Scott. And see what happens. Like people would be good news. Only.

Only. You're only hoping coaching only deliver good news.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't get on that plane tomorrow when you go home. Don't.

Stay one more week.

Yeah, right. Totally.

Are there.

Tactics and tricks that your team and you have picked up in the cold calling game in the last six months to a year or so that you can share with the group that are, that are bringing some different kinds of results? Like have you had to change tactically? Like what are people saying on the phone? So an example might be, hey, remember a few years ago when, when people were like, do you have 30 seconds so I can, you know, try not to waste your time or whatever that stupid intro was?

The permission based openers. Yeah, that type of thing.

Exactly, exactly. God forbid that you believe in that permission based opener. We can have a huge, huge conversation and debate on that. But is there something like that that like used to be working, that doesn't work anymore and you've, you all have found something new?

I think a lot of it is just the delivery, the tone and how you deliver that. You can make the same sentence sound a lot different based on how you say it? I would say the permission based opener, while, while we, we do use it sometimes it's getting overused and we're starting to twist like test out other things. But that's only part of it. Right? You need someone just to listen to you. But then from there you still gotta have a good script and you still have good questions to get them to open up. So that's just, just the beginning stage of getting them to listen to you. We started just going back to just the normal thing. We're just like, hey, how are you? And it's kind of weird and they say like good, how are you? But it's getting them to like acknowledge you or like a human and you're having a normal conversations with them. So we're testing that out again. It's just more so because I think the permission based opener is being overused.

Yeah. Find it interesting that you said script it out. And, and I've been a, a big proponent of scripting talk tracks. Objection. Handling all this kind of stuff. But there's a whole other camp that, that is like, no, I don't believe in scripts. How, how do you engage with the people who are, who tell you, no, I don't believe in scripts. That doesn't. Those don't work well.

We always have a script for our, our SDRs. We're not just going to one. It's a new client. We're not just going to. And oftentimes they don't know either. So we have a script, they have to approve it and we try to give them a type of framework and it's a collaborative effort with the clients. They're going to be answering some questions that might come up and then from there we record everything. We have like AI training environments and we have actual. Patrick, who you had on here not too long ago, is the SDR manager. So he's helping train them as well. But no, we're not just going to throw them out there with no script. Like we have to have a framework for them to follow and then if they follow it, then if it's working, we know that. Okay, great, that's working. If it's not, then we can make adjustments from there.

AI roleplay stuff and AI coaching stuff. Effective for you right now.

It's actually a great selling point. We use a tool called, I don't know how to say it. Itero, I think is the name. So it allows you to. Allows our SDRs. It's kind of, it's challenging. So we have 30 SDRs like, how do you manage all that and get them up to speed with new clients and potentially new scripts? And, and so, like, this allows them to get some practice reps in rather than practicing.

Yeah.

On. On actual prospects.

Right.

And we have a training call with each client so they'll be able to practice. And then maybe some questions came up that wasn't in the script. So then when we have a training call with the client, they can go in sound prepared, like, hey, look, what, what. What should I say in this scenario? Or how should I best answer this? So that's helpful. And then the tool, which was nice. So it will coach the give feedback and coaching on just the practice reps ahead of time, but it also plugs into or on our dialer and will analyze the live calls. So it'll give us feedback and allows Patrick to. Now, like, okay, how is he possibly going to go listen to recordings for 30 different people every day? Like, it's just not possible. But this allows him to know where to look at scale. Right. Okay. Okay, these are the trends. Or like, this, this is coming up and I can go look at this specific recording rather than not really knowing where to look. So it allows him to know where to focus his time.

It's interesting. I'm sitting here listening to you, and I appreciate you sharing that one because I agree with you 100% on the practice thing. But I'm sitting here listening to you, and I'm listening to you talk about scripts and things that work. And the thing that really strikes me is how calm you are in this conversation, which isn't bad. Like, that's not a bad thing. And I'm sitting here going, boy, SDRs and sales reps. I think we're all coached to, you know, and hired because we're aggressive and we have tenacity and go get it and da, da, da. And I think that's part of the reason some of these scripts don't work. Whereas if someone, John, with your pace comes in and this tone of, hey, how you doing? Look up. I don't want to waste your time. Can. Can I just have like 27 seconds, tell you why I'm calling? And, you know, if you don't like it, hang up on me. If you came in with that slow of a pace, as opposed to the one where we're still trying to script our stuff out, I. I buy in more to what you're saying, like, which is like, hey, they all still work. It's just tone of voice matters and stuff. And so I just I don't know. I just felt like I've never quite heard it that way, and I've never listened for it in the way that you described it. And so it's. It's. It's powerful. Do you.

I'm not going to say.

I'm.

I'm sorry.

No, go ahead, Go ahead.

I was gonna say. I'm not gonna say, like, I'm the best salesperson ever, but just me as a person, I'm a shitty liar, so I don't know how to do anything else. So I'm pretty. Like, I'll be honest with people. You know, this goes outside of work. Like, my friends just. It's. I'm just not a good liar, so I don't lie. And so it's just easier to go about it that way. And I think if you're just straightforward with people and honest with them, I think it goes.

I agree with you. Like, I agree with you about the honesty and the trust you mentioned earlier. However, your tone of voice and the pace at which you're speaking. And I talk about pace and tone, and I talk about things like a leading tone or curiosity tone, but hearing this pace is just. It's sort of just making me think. But I. I do love. I think you just gave us the title, which is, you know, I'm not a good salesperson, but I'm a shitty liar. I think that might be the title for the episode. That's a. That's a pretty good one. But anyway, like, I just. Just the way you're communicating is resonating with me. And so I. I compliment you on that. And I hope other people are hearing it and kind of thinking, like, oh, maybe it's not the script. Right? You do need scripts. You should have scripts. I fully agree with you and Scott, like, you better have scripts. But this is that other part that I think we don't pay much attention to, and I think we should, which is that pace.

Yeah. One other thing we started doing not too long ago is, like I mentioned, a lot of our clients are still trying to figure things out. And one thing we'll do is, like, let's just say three weeks or a month goes by. We're just not seeing the results that we want. We'll just add in another SDR for free and try to figure out, like, hey, is this an SDR issue? Because if they're both now not booking, we can go back to the client, be like, look, we added on another sdr, same results, so we need to go back to maybe the targeting's off or maybe the messaging is off, but, like, helping the client get to their answers faster. And maybe it is an SDR issue and we'll swap them out. It doesn't happen, but typically they'll continue to not book and then we'll go back to the client.

Well, we've gotten to that part of the show where we slowly have to wrap it up and we want to give a shout out to our sponsor, Win Win. AI, they're doing some crazy cool stuff. If you haven't seen my video with me and Scott hugging it out, it's on LinkedIn, please go check it out. Because they basically took two still pictures of us and made us move like we were real humans and from two different places everywhere. Very deep fake. So. But in the meantime, John, what questions you have for us? What. What can we answer for you?

How do you guys qualify your clients when you're having your calls? Like, how do you disqualify them or qualify them?

How much money do you have? No, that's Scott's approach. Are you ready?

Are you ready to start?

Yeah. Why haven't you paid me yet? I know it's our first call, but you. I haven't gotten my payment to take this call. That's Scott's approach.

No, no, the. The actual answer is I'm very specific about the stage of the business that I'm working with. Like, I only want to work with people trying to go 0 to 25 million, right? That initial sprint, that growth phase, that's the thing I've done so many times before. That's the thing that I, you know, know really well, so I don't try to deviate from that. So if somebody comes my way and they're like, hey, we do 250 million and we're trying to turn this ship around, I'm like, there's probably somebody better out there for that. Or if somebody is, you know, building something in their garage right now, they don't have any customers whatsoever. They've never raised any money. I say to them, well, you're probably not going to be able to afford me. You're not going to be able to execute properly on the things that I'm you telling. Telling you about that type of stuff. So it's really this combination of, are you at the right stage to work on these kinds of things? Then I'm very keen to hear them tell me this is the most important thing for us right now. And if they can't commit to that, then I Get real nervous that I'm going to be able to be as effective as I need to be. I don't really care in terms of disqualifying about where they are operating or what industry they're in or what the sales cycle is like or any of that kind of thing. And then the last, the last harsh, hard criteria is do I actually want to help them? Do I actually get along with this person a little bit? Do I want to help John over the next six months grow his business? Or am I ambivalent about it and I don't really care? Or do I think this is going to be a relationship full of lots of friction and I'm not going to get, we're not going to get along really well or communicate really well. So those are the, the initial things that I'm kind of vetting out, you know, on a, on a first call. What about you, Richard?

Mine's a little, mine's a little bit different because of the pond I swim in, right where I'm, where I am a sales trainer. And so they generally have a sales team. And every now and then I'll get that early founder, founder led sales, converting to, to, you know, to, to trying to scale sales. And I'll have a couple of those people in that regard. I'm always very conscious of how much is this person even going to do what I ask them to do or tell them to do because I, there's nothing worse than working with someone who hires you and then thinks they're going to ignore you and then blame you when what they did didn't work. And you know, I've had one or two situations like that, traditionally speaking with, with sales teams. I spend a lot of time making sure I understand what their real pain is, right? Not that they need sales training or prospecting training or cold calling. Like that's, that's nothing I like, I, I need to know why they do it, why do they need it? Why are they asking me now in, you know, March of 2025, why didn't they ask somebody back in March of 2024, what changed? And that gives me a lot of insight into how the company even operates and thinks. Right. I'll get answers like we didn't have budget or, you know, we didn't, you know, we were just sitting on our money and we weren't going to spend anything or we tried to do it ourselves. And so I can kind of vet out a little bit about that type of client and whether I want to work with them. I'M you know, I'm in a. You know, I'm super fortunate. Right. I think Scott is too, that, like, we don't have to do a lot of cold calling. Like, people find us. And so, you know, it's. It's easy for us to turn down someone if we feel like it's not a good fit. I also think I tell them that I tell them early on, like, if I can't help you, I don't know. But, you know, I know four other people who do this. Right. Like, I've had people call me and say, can you teach our team how to do better demos and PowerPoint presentations? I'm like, I mean, I could, but that's not my thing. Go talk to this person. So I think it's the most important thing is to know what you're good at, understand what your prospects and clients want, and really dig deep as to why it's so important for them to do this now as opposed to earlier. And then making sure that what you have aligns with what they want. And a lot of times they'll. They'll disqualify themselves or, you know, they'll go find a competitor, too. Like, I think that's a big thing. The other way I disqualify people, too, is I ask them about the competitor. Like, who else are you talking to in the market? And if they're not talking to anybody, I'm like, okay, well, at some point they're going to. Or if they tell me, well, we've already spoken with four other people that I'll just be straight up and say, then why are you talking to me? What haven't you found with them? Because I'm not going to let them looky lou me and take my price to get a better deal from somebody else. Right. And I'll straight up say that. So I will. I'm a little more aggressive about some of those things. It doesn't happen a lot, but, like you, I'm a straight shooter. And, you know, I feel like I have a little more snark in my voice. You know, that could be because I'm still 19 years older than you, even though, you know, I look like I'm 40 years older than you. But that's how I do it. That's like, you know, and again, it's. We're, you know, I'm in a really lucky place where, like, my business is good, my life is good. Kind of like what you were saying, like, I don't have to take every piece of business that comes my way. Right. I had somebody last week ask me like, well, we could only get a budget for $6,000. I'm like, well, good luck. You know, I don't even. Like, I would refer you to somebody. I don't even know anybody who charges that low. Like, I really don't. Right. Like, if you were like, you know, okay, I need five grand, I'd be like, well, okay, you could talk to this person, but, you know, five grand less. But anyway, it's a long winded answer, but that's my answer.

All right, thanks, John. What's the best way for people to find you and engage with you?

LinkedIn or trying to be a little more active on Twitter. So just starting there. But you can find me John Carson or you can always go to the website loveloopleads IO.

All right, everybody, what was the website again? Just one more time.

Level up leads.

There you go. All right, John, Pleasure, man. Let me know when you're back in la. Mirinda.

Yeah. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.

Thanks for spending some time with us, man. We'll see everybody next time on the surfing sales podcast.