S3E52 - Getting the right pipeline at the right time, with Joe McNeill

Welcome back, everybody, for this exciting edition of surf and sales podcast. Super excited. As we mentioned earlier in the introduction, we have Joe McNeil, who is the CRO of influen.

The number two people. Want to check it out? Joe, welcome to the podcast, man. Just if you don't mind, quickly just give people a little intro. What's the, what's the elevator pitch at, Joe?

Yeah, yeah. Thrilled to be here, Ben. Big fans of both of yours. Never talked to either of you in person. So excited to spend some time with both of you. I've been in sales for quite some time. You know, started at an inbound organization, then moved to, went through an IPO, moved to an outbound organization, grew from 8 to 100 million, and now I'm with influence. And the exciting part about here is I get to talk about sales and marketing alignment a lot because we fit somewhere in the cross section of, of this commercial teams. And as teams move to more of a revenue motion from a sales and marketing motion, I get to, to chat with people on alignment and goals and things like that. So. So that's been really a hot button topic for me lately. And, and I think we'll probably touch on that a little bit today.

Yeah, we will. I think the first question we talked about offline is you. You happily shared you're just getting over the tail end of a black eye from your nine year old. Um, just want to make sure, like, you know, how bruised is the fist of your nine year old? Like, did he get you?

Yeah, he was a hockey stick, so. But, but you know, I was hopeful that it would take longer than nine years for my son to become tougher than I am. But unfortunately, I think, I think, I think we, I think we got to. I should be lucky. I got to nine years.

Did he, did he laid you out? Did he score the goal? It was a hockey stick. Like the puck go in.

Yeah, he heard from the league office that that's frowned upon. But, you know, I guess I had never told him he couldn't do it before.

So.

The league office, I assume that's the mother. Yes. Yeah, you're probably like out, but I'm kind of proud.

Yeah, it's been, well, it's been fun the last two weeks on Zoom Calls, just popping in with, with a big shiner and getting to explain it to customers. I, I should have came up with a different story on every call and saw which one was the biggest hit, but now. That's your hockey stick. Yeah.

So let's go back to the business Side building out the revenue approach where you're combining the sales and marketing. Right. Like, it's sort of like the evolution. Can you describe that a little bit more like, sounds cool, looks cool. I think. I think I know what it is. What is it really?

Yeah, well, I think you see it a lot just in the market in the sense there's a lot more revenue titles. There's chief revenue officers as revenue operations, the. And it's really, you know, sales used to be a sales problem and a sales motion. And I think it's becoming increasingly more popular to realize that it's not just, you know, revenue isn't just a sales motion. It's product, it's customer success, it's marketing, it's everything. So I think, you know, the revenue movement to me is really, instead of having these siloed organizations that all have these goals that are supposed to fit nicely, it's aligning everyone around the revenue motion as the definition of what it means to win in a way. And I think there's a lot of. A lot of ground to cover as a whole within the market for that. But I think some organizations are starting to get there pretty quickly.

What are some of that ground? Some of that ground to cover might be quotas and accountability for those quotas. I'm still waiting for the day that anyone in product and engineering has any type of quota that they're responsible, let alone held accountable for.

Yeah, I would say product and engineering is probably the last piece that isn't as far along. I think when you look at quotas, you know, there's a lot more marketing teams that have similar definition of what it means to win, so to speak, as sales teams now, where in the past it was more of a siloed chase to a nebulous MQL goal or some of these vanity metrics that don't, you know, they caused some rifts between groups. Why.

Why do you think that is, though? Like, why. Why are product managers and engineers not getting terminated at the clip that sales leaders are when they consistently miss deadlines? And by the way, there's a ton of product people out there who are great. So I'm not trying to pick on just them, but on all of them. But why?

I mean, the honest answer is, I don't know. I wish I could tell you, like a real definitive good answer hypothesis for that. That would be a great, you know.

So I have a question to you. Why won't you. Let's assume you're at a company, you're the CRO let's not talk about your current company because if they're listening, we don't need to scare them and your product. How many times would you let a product person, engineering person miss the, the deadline to roll something out before you pip them out the door?

You know what, I don't want to give a nebulous answer, but I think it's hard to have like binary thoughts on if this happens.

How many times does your VP of sale, your CRO, how many times your VP of sales get to miss quota before he's picked out the door or she.

Depends on the founder. Right. Hopefully there's context there that matters outside the number. I mean I would, if I, if I had to think about the product, what I think the, on my, my first thought would be there's a lot of founders that lead product, that oversee product.

You know, that's a super good point right there.

That probably has a big impact on accountability. Yeah.

So let's say, let's say that I have this goal of marketing and sales alignment and I think that I have it. How do I, how do I measure that? If you were going to come in and do an assessment over XYZ company who thinks that they have alignment, what are the things that you look for specifically that demonstrate you do indeed have this alignment or you're actually a little farther off than you thought?

Yeah, I think at the highest level it's that they have the same, if you ask them what does it mean to win, they have the same definition. And then I think if you look at it more granularly, you can ask just very simple definition questions like if Richard's the head of marketing and Scott's the head of sales and you ask them what's a lead.

What'S a prospect like, like let's talk through your funnel. What does it look like? Right. And just get some definitions of things that should be low hanging fruit for, for both parties to be really on the same page with. I think you'll find a lot of.

Do you find that they are like. And again, I know you're in your organization so you're building it. Maybe the better question is how when they're not aligned, like there's someone listening and they're starting to move into this revenue role, this revenue approach in 2023. Right. Got sales, got marketing, got ops. Now we need to tie this revenue thing. What's the one piece of advice you give these heads of these department to stop picking at each other.

They gotta win together and, and lose together. Right. If you get into a qbr and, and you know, it's like, all right, we hit 75 of our revenue goal this quarter. And then, you know, marketing head is like, I am Michael. I, I had my guy. Right. Like that's a problem, you know, and like, we're good over here, you know, So I, I think at the, at the highest level, to me it's, it's when you, when you have these siloed goals departments, start optimizing in different directions and start, start prioritizing things differently and viewing the world a little differently and that, that, you know, you start to drift apart.

I'm going to ask one more question, and I promise I'll shut up and let Scott ask some questions. So how aligned are the goals? Like, because, you know, typically marketing has been like, give me the MQLs. And then sales is like, they suck. And then it's like, well, you don't know how to discover. You know, it's like, where is that tie? Is it. They each get their own piece of their comp based on what they normally do. But if we don't hit this revenue thing, you know, then everybody's comps tied there. Like, how do you build that structurally?

I, I, I listened to UDI Lettergager talk about the gong marketing comp plans a few years back and I thought it was kind of beautifully simple in the sense that, so he would give, and this is probably three years old, but he would give his, his marketing folks like three quarterly KPIs, and they were different every quarter. But their KPI payout was throttled by revenue. So if the, if the sales team, if the company hit 80% their revenue goal, the max they could make is 80% of their, you know, full bonus on the KPI, even if they hit the KPI. So I think it looked like to me that was a simple yet creative way to create actionable goals that you can measure but then tie them up to the revenue where, you know, if you hit your.

LinkedIn page follower goal but the company didn't hit revenue, it wasn't impactful. So I, at some point you had to cross, you know, cross reference. Is what I'm doing helping the greater good or am I cheating my way to get there? That's going to impact us in the long run.

Yeah.

Why did, why does something so simple like that not get more widespread adoption? Why would, why are organizations still resisting this?

It's a good question. I think there's probably pushback from folks that, hey, we don't have Immediate direct impact on revenue or we don't have this or we don't control that. And, but, but to be frank, I don't know, I don't know why you'd ever totally focus on a KPI as a goal. Like things like MQL's, these funnel. These funnel KPIs, I mean they're, they're valuable data points, right? But they were never meant to be the end all goal. You know, it's, it's an indicator on your way, you know, sort of like metrics and sales, right? Like it's context that you can cross reference if you're falling behind. You can look at the data and say, hey, you know, what are things that I can look at to see if I'm, you know, where, where my gaps are and where I can improve or where I can iterate. It's not, hey, you know, hitting X amount of meetings or hitting X amount of calls or hitting X amount of pipeline ad. That's the goal. You know, the goal is quota, the goal is revenue. That's all just context. So you can sort of a roadmap to see you can that.

What advice would you, what advice would you have for somebody who's, who's working in an organization that does not have this and is listening and they're like, well, I really, I totally get and understand what Joe's saying. We don't have this in my organization and I feel powerless to enact some type of change. I'm just a account executive or whatever. Like what is somebody supposed to do? Is it an automatic trigger? Like hey, you should probably look for a new job and really get good at evaluating?

Call Joe. I'm sure Joe's team needs a salesperson.

No, you know, I think now is a good time to have these conversations because most companies right now are pipeline starved. Most companies are behind on some of their goals, right? And right now I, I think if there's a lack of alignment, tough economies and, and tough markets really bear those out. Because in boardrooms everywhere there's, you know, attribution, squabbling going on and, and departments fighting for what little budgets left rather than thinking sitting down and really iterating against the, the, or triaging against the problem is how do we get more pipeline? And like who cares what department does what? Like how do we work together to get more pipeline? So from, from an AE standpoint, if you don't have enough pipeline.

And you're not being supported in certain areas, like I think it's, it's time to start calling that out. How can you.

I like that approach of like, how do we work together to get more pipeline? Because that affects it. All right.

But I want to. But I find. But if I'm an AE and I recognize, okay, I don't have that right now, how do I suss that out? If I go put myself on the market and start interviewing with Joe and Richard and everybody and I go to these new orgs, like how. What are the questions that I ask, I guess to try to find out if this is if there's going to be a difference in where I'm headed from where I just left.

Yeah. I think looking at the structure of the commercial team, you know, you can ask about the goals. I think, you know, as an ae, if you want to take a very selfish approach, like what's the number one driver of conversion rates right now with ae? It's probably the ability to multi thread your opportunities. Right. So how is the organization supporting that right now? Because a lot of organizations are like, all right, ae, you need to be Superman or woman and really handle the, the brunt of multi threading your opportunities on your own. Because marketing's job is to get you leads and then you take it from there type of thing. So, so it's, do they have a plan or emotion for how to support that for their teams? You can. There's questions.

So what? I love that question of what's the number one driver of conversion rates? That's a great question. I think it probably freak out a lot of VPs of sales, probably even a lot of founders and CEOs.

You probably get a lot of different answers too.

You could ask them on Monday. You get one answer. You can ask them at the end of the day for the second interview and they'd get a different answer. What are the kind of things that people should be looking at to determine what the right conversion rates are for them? Like, you know, from your experience, it's like. And I know it's, well, it depends on your model and your sales cycle and all that. But like, what are the things that stick out to you?

Yeah, I think the easiest way to do it is try to reverse engineer the wins you've had, especially in this market. Like, you know, what is the anatomy of a winning deal right now? And then work backwards. Because to me you need, you know, just like when Covid started, like, people aren't spending political capital to buy things in a vacuum right now. Like everything is a big time committee decision. So, so who were the, the parties that were that committee that made this decision. Like, how are buying decisions being made right now from our buyers?

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I don't know if I shared this story with you. A guy I worked for.

Worked for Netflix and they were trying to figure out what was the earliest conversion, what was the signal that told them that someone would register and sign for three years. And it wasn't when someone signs up, it wasn't the taste profile. It wasn't when you put in your credit card number. It was the moment they connected the Xbox, because this is in like 2007 and 8. The moment you connected the device, you were not disconnecting. Kind of like insurance. How often do we ever really call, you know, all state, see if we save 15 or less. Like we don't, you know, so I like that. I like driving for those conversion rates.

That's really cool because I think that the most common thing right now is companies are pipeline starved. Right. So, so what's the, the, the one thing, you know, they're all, a lot of them are operating off the same playbook from a pipeline generation standpoint. So what's the, the first solution to that? More volume. Right. That's what most companies are doing. And that's, that's really, to me, that's not the answer right now. It's taking a more intentional approach to not maybe not more pipeline, but how do we get more of the right pipeline?

That is good. I like that. Getting more of the right pipeline.

Right pipeline at the right time.

Yeah, yeah.

To take it even a, you know, one step deeper, probably. Right?

Yep.

Yeah.

Go ahead, Rachel. No, no, go for it. Go for it.

Is there, is there different skill sets that you'd be looking for now from your marketers that you're trying to hire who think this particular way or. Or from salespeople that you're trying to hire who are moving more towards this revenue thing rather than just sales or marketing.

Yeah. I've always, you know, a former boss of mine said that the primary profile he looks for, and I thought he eloquently nailed it, is, is curious. Team oriented problem solvers. It's a lot of buzzwords, but, you know, I think curiosity is always king. Right. I think problem solvers is a huge deal and then people that are willing to work as a team. So I don't think that that's different now. I just think that the people that have it and the people that don't, it really is highlighted right now.

It stands out more right now.

Yeah, it Stands out more right now.

So it's interesting because I see that, I hear that I should say as curiosity and problem solvers, and I'm a. I guess, I don't know, over generalize. I feel like I'm the problem solver. Go in and make me do the tactical and Scott's the curiosity one. Not that he doesn't do tactical. I just lack that curiosity piece. How do you determine if someone has those skills, though? Like how? Like, what are you looking for in their background? You can get as granular as what kind of questions you ask them.

To me, it's.

It's the ability to.

Think creatively.

And then be willing to fail and then being willing to admit you fail and then try again. Right. So I think if you look back, it's like, what are. You know, during the COVID year, right? Like when things were tough there, what are some things you did differently or tried? What are some things you tried differently? What are some things you focused on to close business during that sort of tough period? What worked and what didn't? Right. Because it's. To me, I'm looking for answers of things that work, but I'm also looking for them to talk me through the things they tried that didn't work, because I think that's valuable too, because for every good idea, there's probably an equal or usually more bad ideas that you tried.

I want to know about it. I want to know about a terrible idea that you heard of or tried during the COVID year that just completely shanked.

Let me think here.

Tell us about another black eye is what Scott's telling me.

We tried a lot of stuff. I mean.

To me, we tried to restructure our sales development motion a little bit to become probably too specialized.

You know, to learn markets. And I think. I think it. It became a bit too granular where I think there's a fine line between, you know, for. For SDRs. Like, you don't want them talking to, like, dramatically different Personas every conversation because it's hard for them to learn. Like, how do I have a thoughtful conversation with this? But if you get them in too big of a niche, then it's almost like the curse of knowledge, where they think they think they have everyone absolutely pegged and it kind of shortens the belt. So I think trying to find the right.

The right band for that.

But yeah, I mean, we. We tried a lot of stuff that. That unfortunately, a lot of it didn't work. But, you know, I think. Go ahead.

I was gonna say what about you, Richard, can you think of any very bad attempt that somebody tried or that you tried in the. In the COVID year that.

That is unique and different?

Yeah, I think that. Well, what I'm seeing now that I think is bad. Like, we kind of knew it before, but it's even worse is that I'm seeing people coming and saying, richard, you know, we're finally getting everybody together, so we want to do some sales training, which is like the worst thing to do three days in. In Vegas or Nashville or Atlanta or wherever you're going to do your kickoff. Like, seriously, like, terrible. Like, there's this mindset that the mistakes. The biggest mistake I see people make is that they don't even understand the lifetime value of a customer when they approach training and that all they ever see is, is, well, we're already getting everybody together in this city for two days. Let's do one more day. And it'll save a whole bunch of money so we don't have to fly everybody around, around again. And it's kind of like that's the wrong answer because it's going to be ineffective and people are going to forget. So that's the biggest mistake I see. And I, of course, will and will still cash those checks for people who actually come out. So, you know, do that. I don't care. I mean, I care, but it's.

That's my favorite part. Richard is just completely willing to take the money anyways. Joe.

Oh, come on, Scott, please. Who do you think taught me that? Scott's mantra, I guess I'm going to put it on. Scott has two mantras. One goes on the shirt, just says anytime you hear something. And the other one is make more work less. So those are his keys. What about you? But Scott, flip it to you. What are you seeing and hearing in the marketplace from 2020?

I mean, the biggest thing I saw people do really well was they, for my world, they got comfortable with doing training online. And we found out a way to make it work because I don't think they ever would have before, and I think that'll stick around for a while.

Well, I think some of the big failures were panic and just overcutting everything, spend on everything.

I think a lot of people tried to jump in and attach themselves and build some level of community and brand. It's very hard for companies to have a brand the way that individuals can have a brand. So I think a lot of people spent time and energy trying to build organizational brands that didn't go anywhere. And then you Know, Joe probably has a rep or two on his team that is more famous than the company he works for. And then people get pissed off about that and they forget. Like, actually that rep's brand brought lots of business to Joe's company. And then they disciplined them and told them, I need you to stop posting, stop building your brand. And just like overcorrected on that. Just some weird stuff like that, I think were some of the failures from the COVID year. Joe, you're having a reaction to what I just said. Tell me more about it.

No, I. Not that experience specifically. I think what I'm thinking about is things that I screwed up a lot and had to tinker with a lot is just trying to like, create engagement with the internal teams. All these virtual happy hours and stuff. There's like such a balance of how do you get the team together to, you know, make sure that you have sort of this collaboration, but when. When is too much and, and you know, virtual happy hours were great for like the first two weeks and then just about everybody hated them. So I think there was a fine line in tinkering with the. The creating, you know, the connective tissue throughout the org going fully remote. Because, you know, company I was with at the time, we were, we're, you know, in office and then we went fully remote basically overnight. So we were figuring it out on.

The fly, as was everybody else. Right. And you know, this is the interesting thing I see is that, you know, people were figuring out. Figuring it out on the fly on how do we millennialize the job. Right. The role for the, you know, because nobody knows right now we're going back to the other side. This is my next question. Actually Joe is. Okay, so now what? So you had to work remote now are you creating hybrid. What do you. What do you all want to do? What does your team want to do? You know.

Yeah, we.

Are you approaching it, I guess is the question.

My current org is. Is fully remote. Right. The, you know, we don't have an office space here. Here in the US the company was born out of emea. We still have a lot of employees in Ukraine, which has been, you know, a challenge this year for sure.

Yeah.

So, you know, there's definitely no view on forcing people in the office that our culture is sort of built around the remote motion. So for us it's a little bit easier just because it's how it's always been where transitioning from in office to remote fully at the last company was a little more challenging because it was Kind of sort of taking the status quo and flipping it on its head overnight.

I want to ask this question. So this is a, you know, we talk, we all know several orgs with that people in the Ukraine and now as an organization there's this empathy, support, love, care.

And that will affect, particularly in the Ukraine that can actually affect the growth of your organization, like legitimately. Like you theoretically could go and all right, let's get rid of all those people and we'll go hire them somewhere else. Right.

But that's a really inhumane way of doing it. So my question for you is what are the leadership things you've learned that you were like, oh, that's a really interesting thing. I've never had to. Not, not the war part, but like, what are the interest, what are the leadership skills that you've embraced and work through? Because I'm wondering how they translate to other challenges.

Yeah, I, I think for me, like the, the hardest thing is having any understanding whatsoever of what they're going through over there. Because, because I can't imagine living in a major city that's getting, you know, where when you're working the, the bomb sirens are going off and, and you know, buildings down the road are getting bombed. Like there's, there's no way.

I can't even im.

Work. I, I was shocked at how much.

They did work in a way and how resilient they were. And I think part of it, you know, and I don't want to speak for them, but none of it was mandated. Right. Part of it was just sort of a. They're, they're very resilient, have sort of this belief you attitude to like, we're gonna continue to, to live our lives and do our thing and you're not going to be able to sort of crush our spirit. So it's, it, it's an inspiring culture over there, for sure. Talking through them and the resiliency and just the toughness and how positive they are about, you know, we're gonna win this thing and, and you know, this, this isn't going to stop us.

Because I don't think I, I would have that in me if I was in their shoes, to be completely frank.

Yeah. I don't, I don't know that any of us know what we would be capable or not capable of.

So. Well, thank you for sharing that. And certainly to those folks, whether you work with Joe's company at all or you are in the Ukraine, just hang in there. The world cares.

So we do.

Need to sort of Start to wrap this up, Joe, and before we do, we want to give you a second to ask us a question, give you a moment to think about that as we thank our sponsors of scratch pads and DOSO and outreach and med rep meeting. Thank you for all of you to. To support us. And then for those people who are interested in checking those tools out for 2023, by all means do so and tell them that Scott Lee said you get 99.9 off.

So, yeah, end of year special. End of year special.

They can. They can do some revenue. Revenue attrition. And call Joe, too. Joe.

Even Joe's company has a 99% off special.

Joe, thanks for tolerating us. Of course. What question can we answer for you if you got it?

Well, I would like to get your perspective on the disparity of accountability between product and commercial, for one. And then, you know, outside of that question, I'll hit with two questions. It's just, you know, you talk to a lot of organizations. What are the commonalities you're seeing amongst the teams that are persevering and winning right now and staying afloat versus the ones that are. Are struggling a bit more?

Scott, you want to take either one first? You care? You want me to go.

You can go ahead and go first.

Yeah. The things that I see, the teams that are doing right.

They'Re finally recognizing the value of doing more stuff on the front end, whether it's better data and some of the right systems in place to help their team.

It's still shocking to me how many people think that reps should be, you know, putting lead data in a CRM. It's like, really, like the rep should just walk in and there should be a list for Monday. Like, like. And I think that's. So I'm seeing more teams do that.

I do see more revenue alignment happening so that it helps. I think it's. It feels like it slows it down, but it makes it better. It's kind of like you got to slow down to speed up kind of piece. Those are the things that I see. I'm seeing more.

Balance towards reps being full cycle. Not that all the SDRs are going away, but, like, there's more accountability to the reps of, like, no, you need to do some prospecting too kind of thing.

And I think I'll stop there. Let Scott jump in.

Well.

The people who are thriving to me.

Have really figured out a way to meet prospects where they are. And so it's not that they've abandoned traditional models of selling modalities, of selling like cold calling or emailing or whatever, but they just don't care like where they find somebody. So I find Joe in a community. I find Joe at a virtual happy hour that he hates. I find Joe, you know, on LinkedIn or I sent him a video that, you know, made him laugh, or I built my brand to the point where people are like, huh, what's this influence company all about? Right?

And that partly has to do with letting reps.

Be creative and be themselves, but also creating a playbook that allows for those things to happen and teaches people to do these things the right way.

Those people, I think, are the ones that I'm really see thriving and those are struggling, don't embrace that or don't understand that, or are too rigidly kind of stuck in what used to, used to work. That's the biggest thing that I, that I see. As for that, that the engineering product, it kind of piece. Honestly, you made a really good point, which is like the founders are often leading those teams and the founder is not going to hold themselves accountable and, and fire themselves. So that's a really, really interesting wrinkle.

That comes into, that comes into play. Honestly, I just think it's like status quo more than anything. I just think that nobody asks or pushes it, pushes back on it or anything like that. And I think it's high time that people start pushing back on all that stuff and asking these questions and demanding the accountability. You see marketers now who are saying, sure, give me a number, go ahead, give me a quota, increase my ote a little bit and give me a quota. Beautiful.

Yep.

Right? It's happened with cs. Cs, people have revenue quotas now, all the upsells and all this. I mean, the whole term changed from client services to customer success. So I think it's just status quo. And we just need some people who are a bit more dynamic, you know, and willing to kind of push back on that for some of these.

Barriers.

To kind of fall down. That's my, that's my thinking.

I think it, I think it aligns similarly to. We've talked a lot about that. Why do we have a, you know, a four year vest with a one year clift, Right, Cliff? Like why, like if Scott comes in as a VP of sales and hits the $10 million target in two years, shouldn't he be fully vested?

Right?

Like that kind of thing. So, and it's only because, I don't know, it's just what everybody does. Like, you know, so that's that's how I.

It's the VC template, right?

Yeah, yeah. It's the copycat league, right? It's like all of a sudden, everybody's involved in saber metrics. Like, I actually know the guy. The guy who does Philly's saber metrics lives here in Moraga Scott. I don't know if I ever told you that.

Well, he's having a good run right now. Congratulations to your neighbor who's in the world.

He's, like, super excited. Like, I wonder if he gets a bonus, though. Like, I do wonder what his compensation plan is.

He should get a bonus, that's for sure.

Yeah, definitely.

Definitely.

Joe, thanks, man. This has been really cool to get to know you and share some of this. Like, you dropped some really solid wisdom for folks, so we really, really appreciate it.

Great. Yes. It's been fun chat with both of you. Great to meet you both.

If folks want to get a hold of you, LinkedIn, the easiest place. Joe McNeil.

Yeah, yeah, LinkedIn would be the best place.

And people, are you guys hiring salespeople? Because, you know. Or you.

We are not hiring salespeople right now, but we will be short.

So if you're stuck on that thing, here's the best way you're going to get Joe's attention. Hey, I heard you on the surf.

And sales podcast about what about the 99% discount. I'd love to sell 99 discount products.

Interesting new advertising campaign. Advertise the 99 discount.

Exactly.

But they. But you know what? They got a call by October 31st, which is.

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that'll be a lot of healthy pipeline. We talked about healthy pipeline, right?

Yeah. Perfect.

Yes.

Good attribution conversion, easy conversion rates. All right, Joe, thanks so much, man. We appreciate it.

Thanks, guys. Appreciate it.

See ya.

So.