S4E51 - Stopping Negative Self Talk with Joel Bein

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What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Surf and Sales podcast. I am Scott Lease, co founder of the Surf and Sales Summit happening in just a few weeks.

Richard, I know we got. We have another victim. We have another fly caught in the web that we're going to try and convince during this podcast. Like that's Scott. That's our goal for 2024. Have one guest book their deposit while they're on the show. Live.

Live close. Live close. You've got the surfing Sales Summit coming up November 27th, all the way through December 6th. Got two different sessions happen. And check it out@surfacesales.com that's Richard Harris and he is going to join me today. We're going to talk to Joel Byne, who is the founder of Human Liberation. He also used to be the CEO of Career Hackers. So he's been around for a while. He knows some cool stuff about personal growth. And we're going to get into how to end negative self talk, amongst other things when we welcome him in just a second. But until then, or before then, excuse me. Richard is going to talk to us a little bit about our partners over at HubSpot.

Yeah. Scott, are you. Are you feeling okay? You sound like you might have a little bit of cold.

No, I don't have a cold.

All right.

Just, you know, feels like you're sniffing like me. Okay, maybe you just, you know, I won't go.

I just think I'm bitter because I lost to you in fantasy football this week is what it is.

That's true too. So that's a whole other episode. Joel doesn't want to hear about that, though. Anyway, thank you to HubSpot, the HubSpot podcast network. We appreciate them. We are in the home stretch, as they like to say, where the deals are closed, champions are made, and if you don't have your own champion internal at your deal, you got a challenge right there, Scott. We should do an episode one day on how to build a champion. That'd be a fun one.

That is a good idea, actually.

Yeah. So if you don't know about the new sales spot, the HubSpot Sales Hub, sorry, everybody. It can supercharge your sales process. If you've listened to the show like most of you have, you probably already know about it. But that's okay. It does unify your data, your tools, your team prospecting, AI assistance, all kind of stuff to help you stay seamless and make your job easier. Get rid of all those manual tasks. So thank you again, HubSpot and the HubSpot podcast network. Scott, I will turn it back to you.

Yeah, we're excited to talk to our guy, Joel. Welcome to the show, Joel.

Thanks so much, guys. Appreciate it.

Well, first of all, tell everybody what human liberation is all about.

Yeah, I mean, big picture. Like, my mission is to help people come alive in their lives. And human liberation is a tool. It's a personal development program where people can clear out the clutter that kind of gets in the way. Right. So that comes down to negative self talk, negative emotions, mental barriers, imposter syndrome, procrastination, anxiety, self doubt, any pattern that you might want to describe that. That gets in the way of you creating what you want in your life.

Scott, did you.

Did you ask.

Did you ask Joel to come here for me? Like, are we here for a therapy session on Richard?

One on one session disguised.

So sorry, Joel. Keep going. But I couldn't resist. Well.

Well, it's all good. I mean, and by the way, I love that both you guys are just such proponents of mental wellness and talking about that type of stuff.

Where's your journey? Where'd your journey begin on this, this piece? Like, what got you to here? Was there a moment with you in your life or a friend or a family member?

Yeah.

I mean, there's not one moment. It's. It's a journey. It's. I like to say that I've been on a hero's journey in my life, and that hero's journey is about becoming that authentic self. A lot of my 20s was. Was like figuring out who that authentic self was, but at the same time, I still struggled to. To reveal that, to open up, to share that, to be that authentic self. And my 30s has been in my sort of. That next stage of personal evolution has been taking that self knowledge and, and being myself and opening that up and expressing that. And, and all. All these years has been. I've been. Yeah. Interested in personal development and, and that, you know, that obviously starts from. From childhood. Right? Like having less than optimal childhood experiences that ended up, you know, sort of calcifying some. Some parts of me that ended up covering up that true self. So that that process of the hero's journey, I think, is. Is letting go of. Of those. The sort of fragmented parts, those, those protective mechanisms and so forth that they can get in the way of. Of you really showing up as your whole self. So that's kind of like the high level of it.

What was your. What was your. And I agree with you, it's like it's never One thing. And then usually they're not. Maybe not for everybody. There's like, okay, finally I'm gonna do something about this, right? Like, I think for. For addicts, it could be they finally have to hit rock bottom. You know, for me, I knew all along, but I ignored it. And then one day I woke up and couldn't move. Like, what? I'm just trying to, you know, sort of put a little bit more perspective on this, if you're comfortable.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah. And it's funny because I'm going to. Going on more podcasts now, and I'm reflecting a little bit about how I want to. To share more my story in different ways and different angles into that. But for me, it's. You know, it's funny because I think I've always just been the type of person that wants to do something about it. From. Even from. As a kid, like, there were.

That the house was a mess. So I'm gonna go clean the house, like, because there's so much, like, chaos in the house that I would say. I would say to myself, what am I gonna do to do something about this?

Can you share a little bit, like, what chaos meant for you? And again, I'm trying to have the listeners. We've all had chaos, right?

Yeah.

It's not a judgment of, oh, was mine worse than Joel's? It's more like, oh, I'm not alone. Joel's had some tough shit too, right?

Yeah. I mean, the chaos for me mainly was my parents constantly fighting, growing up and not having that sense of peace and groundedness and warmth and nurturing these essential needs we have as children. So there was that disorder, that chaos, that strife, and that was very consistent. Parents arguing every single night, sometimes getting severe.

And then, like, going through school. I just didn't really enjoy that, like a lot of us. So I. I became the good kid. I did. Did what I was supposed to do. I got the pretty good grades and all the things, but I was just kind of going through the motions most of that time, even though I was passionate about things like music and sports and. But, yeah, the. The chaos in the house was. Was that fighting with my parents, primarily. And so, yeah, I'm not really sure why exactly. I was this person that's saying, what am I going to do about this? Although I definitely had my share of apathy as well. But there was al. There was always this, like, I want to do something. And so I started, like, doing personal development. By the time I was, I don't know, 18, 19 starting to read the books and the podcasts and things like that.

That's very early, I think, to start trying to get into personal development and studying it and learning and researching at, you know, 17, 18 years old. That's at least 10 years before I even heard of that in my life.

Yeah. And maybe it wasn't necessarily direct. I was, I wasn't necessarily calling it personal development, but I was following my curiosity and I started, I was gravitating towards these podcasts. This is like an OG podcast days in like 2008, I'm listening to podcasts about parenting, parenting philosophy. At the time, I had no idea why I was like, why I was doing that. I was just naturally drawn to that. But now I see that I was, I was craving some like an oasis of hey, here's, here's actually healthy ideas for how you could have been treated, stuff like that. So that, that kind of started initiating like a reflection on my own childhood as I, as I became an adult and, and going from there.

When you're, when you're in the throes of.

This negative loop, negative kind of self talk, especially when you're leading a company, you were the CEO of Career Hackers to run your own company now. But I'm kind of going back a few years before human, human liberation was the thing you're working on. So you're back at Career Hackers, you're leading the company. How does your own negative self talk manifest in the workplace and kind of filter down and affect how the whole business is running?

I mean, for me.

What comes to mind is just not fully trusting and having, having different thought patterns and, and belief structures around.

Needing things to go a certain way and that, that tendency towards, towards order and control and predictability.

That getting in the way of, of just feeling easeful, just feeling a sense of flow, you know, I mean, you can muscle your way through a lot of this stuff. And I've, I've done my, my share of muscling over the years.

But yeah, that, that's been one of my, and I'm still, I'm still continuing to work through that for sure of wanting things to be certain. And again, that goes back to my childhood because I didn't have any certainty. So I started developing these mechanisms to try to gain certainty. So in entrepreneurship, what I've learned, you know, is that, well, it's always an ongoing evolution process as opposed to this exact thing is going to happen on January 24th.

That's not going to be the case. So letting things unfold and letting go of control and also trying to build relationships with people and delegate things and let go of trying to micromanage. Not necessarily micromanage them, but micromanage the task. And having this certain attachment to this needs to be this exact way. Now, there's value to that because there's like my attention to detail is also a strength for me.

But having that give and take where you have the standards, while also giving people trust and, and letting things go and letting things play out organically, you know?

Do you.

How do you. Because I think we all have negative self talk, right? Like, there's. There's nothing I call it, and this isn't my phrase, and I can't remember who told him, but said it. But, you know, giving yourself grace, right? So, you know, it's one thing if I'm on the golf course and I hit a shot and I'm like, ah, come on right now. And, you know, I'll even go, God, Ricky, which is my dad criticizing me on the golf course, right? That. That's negative self talk, which I kind of know to work on, but it's not the important stuff in life. Like, the golf is not my biggest problem. How do you coach yourself? Or better yet, how do you coach others to give themselves grace or give yourself grace to try to rewire that thought process? Because we've been doing it so long in our head, right. That it's, you know, it's almost natural, you know?

Yeah, I would say it's. It's habitual, not natural, so.

Oh, that's a good way to say it. Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah. Were born with full wholeness. You know, sometimes I'll tell clients, like, if you look. If you imagine yourself just looking at your infant self the day of your birth and you're in your mom's arms, is there any evidence, looking at that scene, that that child, that infant, is not good enough? It's like, no, it's. That. That's the pure innocence and wholeness. And then through our experiences, we. We start creating these. These thought patterns, these beliefs, and these.

These voices become habituated.

So for me, there is. First of all, I primarily don't coach. I. I help people unlearn and eliminate and erase the beliefs from the root so that the belief is actually integrated and let go of completely so we don't have a lot more of these thoughts. And every single belief that we let go of, the thoughts and the emotions start to. They're shaved down every single session. The pattern of whether that's fear about failure or procrastination or imposter syndrome. People start experiencing drastic reductions in the pattern because we're clearing out the root of the beliefs and we can talk more about that. But in terms of the giving the grace thing, that's, that's definitely a healthy mindset to, to couple in as you're letting go of sort of the clutter if you will in your mind to recognize that this is a process and to be your own best friend in your journey. And I'm reminded of the phrase you accepting a negative experience is a positive experience, while pursuing a positive experiences can be a negative experience.

So oftentimes we can get in this, we can get in this train in personal growth of constantly trying to pursue better and fixing and that that pursuit in of itself can be a negative experience.

And so the grace thing, I love that word myself, grace and the self kindness to, to recognize that you're a fallible human that is, you know, you're trying to get your needs met every single day. And it's imperfect, but that imperfection is, is, is enough. You know.

I would love to hear, and I've been through this exercise, Richard has not. But can you tell us a story about somebody other than yourself that you kind of talked to, worked with to try to clear out some of these negative self talk loops, the habitual stuff like you're talking about what was happening maybe before you started working with them and what did they come back and told you later on?

Yeah, there's different ways, different directions I can go with that.

One that comes to mind is a client who.

This is a sales professional who's making good money and.

Starting out as an entrepreneur and doing their own thing like transitioning from working for a company and then moving into entrepreneurship but still making good money and has a lot of skills, has a lot of know connections and all the things, but then still having these loops about doubting his ability to, to build things, doubting his ability to go out on his own as well as blocks about financial having enough money. I mean I, I would love to highlight that one because that one's a big one and it connects with, with sales as well. Like what types of belief structures do we have just about the concept of money. So.

The high level story for him was.

We rated his pattern of. At the beginning of. We did 12 sessions together, 12 weeks and the first session we identify the top three patterns that are getting in the way. And one of those patterns was this pattern around money. And we rank that pattern on a scale, scale 1 to 10. And he was at a 10 out of 10 with, with like severity of how this fear of not having enough money or not deserving it or all these different types of, of issues. He said it was 10 out of 10. And.

Every single week we just show up and we shave down that pattern by, by letting go of certain beliefs that they get in the way, such as like I don't have enough money and that, that's just in the subconscious mind. Perhaps it's not the conscious, but subconscious mind. This is why this process is, is innovative. It's really connecting to that, that part of the subconscious mind that has the belief so that it, it is able to be freed of it rather than just trying to use affirmations and trying to use willpower or trying to tell yourself that this is true. Because we know in this case like this person had enough money. But on the conscious level he knew that, but on the unconscious level that part of him was still hanging on. So these types of beliefs about financial security and so forth over the, over the course of that, not even, not even by the time we got to week 12, he was, the pattern was gone. Like we rated it, he rated that as a zero out of 10 by the time we got to week 10 or something because we had probably worked with, I don't know, 15, 20 beliefs about money as well as about self worth. Right.

I can't trust myself. Self type beliefs that are specifically going to, to play out in all sorts of areas of life. If you take, I can't trust myself. That's going to be fundamental to all of your actions basically if the subconscious mind is holding on to that. But it's also going to, you know, apply to money. So clearing out beliefs about, specific about money specifically as well as about the self.

Over time. Those like, like he was like, I can't. Like everything seems good, man. Like, I don't know what to say. This is kind of mind blowing.

So that's great. What? I had two questions. Well, one's a comment and a couple questions. But I love what you said about learning to trust yourself, right? Particularly in sales. Like the really good salespeople can trust the process, right? I've done this, I've done this, I've talked to this person, I've done that. Like those, you know, they trust that process, right?

And they trust themselves to do that part of the process, I think. But like they, they've ingrained it yet on the personal side, you know, they can't trust themselves.

So my question is, do you find that. Do you find a common theme that people who are often very successful in the work side recognize that success, but then they don't feel successful on the personal, you know, social side, which was, you know, this is probably me projecting my shit. I'm curious how that just sort of like, is a pattern, right? Like, oh, these people are so successful, they have these patterns, but not on this other side of their life. Or is it like, no, everybody's really different.

Yeah. My first thought is everyone's different. But I definitely know that the mind has a very skilled ability to compartmentalize. Right. As human beings, we compartmentalize quite, quite frequently if we're not conscious of it. So there's definitely, I would say in, in our culture at large, there's a solid number of people who will do that type of thing will be super successful in, in one domain. But it could be all sorts of issues and challenges with their, their personal relationships, their significant other things like this. I mean, for me, I've had, I've.

Done a whole, I've done a lot.

Of these, this belief work on myself. And a whole bucket for me is beliefs about women. Right. Belief, beliefs about romantic relationships.

In this that are buried in the subconscious mind that are just. Again, we're just holding on to these things that we learn growing up.

Usually just through osmosis or just trying to navigate our environments and adapting to our environments, we learn these types of beliefs. So, yeah, clearing out beliefs in that, in that category can be super helpful. I had a client. Yeah. Where we cleared a bunch of stuff for her after maybe eight, nine weeks that she felt really satisfied in terms of fear of failure and putting herself out there creatively and entrepreneurially. And then was like, hey, what do you want to work on next? And we started working on this personal relationship thing. She's like, yeah, I see that. I have some blocks over here. So then we started finding specific beliefs that are contributing to that pattern around like fear of intimacy. So I do like to highlight for people that it's worth looking at these different sort of buckets of life, whether that's money or sales or self worth or relationships or work ethic. That's a big one. Like, I'm actually. That's kind of like one of the categories I'm particularly passionate about is helping people let go of their, their unnecessary over hustling, you know, so we can talk about that if you want.

How are we defining unnecessary over hustling? What's the difference between necessary hustle?

No, it's Funny, because as I was saying that I was like, that's redundant. Like, no, I just mean over hustling.

Over hustling. Any, any sort of pattern where you're, for example, working for work's sake, you're just trying to prove your self worth that you're good enough to all this subconsciously, right?

But so often, you know, growing up we get inundated with, you know, we go to school and we're told to go do these assignments and do them whether you like, like them or not and kind of push through the resistance to do the, do the, the assignments and, and go to school from, you know, 35 hours a week and then work on your homework and be a good student and, and develop as a work ethic. Right? And work ethics are super valuable.

But there's a distinction between.

Work for work sake and work for results sake, right? So when we get stuck in any types of patterns where we just think we need to be busy, we're confusing productivity with activity or confusing busyness with productivity. And those types of patterns can come from our subconscious mind where we have these beliefs, like the way to be good enough is to work hard. What makes me worthy is working hard. And even just believing that things have to be hard, like a big one. I see for sales is sales is hard.

It's like, well, is there any actual evidence in physical reality for through our five senses that that proves that sales is hard? Like what's the objective, like truth about that? But we, we might have that stuff in our subconscious mind even if we don't consciously believe it. So that that type of stuff can, can create this friction in our actual physiology. We're going throughout our day and we feel these resistance. We see, we feel these emotions, we feel these, these pressures. How much of that is because our subconscious beliefs are just getting activated?

Yeah, it's interesting because I think about this, right, like, and I wouldn't even say it's in sales. I think we've all just been sort of told down through the generations that, you know, you have to work hard to be successful.

Right?

And you know, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. And we've just, you know, and it could be about sports, it could be about being a CEO, it could be about anything. It doesn't have to be about sales.

So it's interesting to me that you know where that just sort of comes from, you know, because I love that sentence of, well, why do we. Whoever said sales has to be hard? Like, where did that come from? Like, sort of question everything. It's what I'm hearing from you.

That's the story we told ourselves, right?

Yeah. And I think it's. It's absorbing. Like, in that case, a lot of it's just absorbing from the culture, you know, or if we take the example of like, sales is manipulative or sales is dishonest, you know, with all the caricature of what sales is, you know, caricature of a used carsman's used car salesman. That's. That's we might absorb just growing up in this culture. Even if we actually then start doing sales and we realize actually being authentic and being honest is actually better for sales, we might know that consciously. The question is, do we have parts of ourselves that are still holding on to that programming? So that's another word I like to use. A lot of this is like, it's just programming. Like, not even necessarily deliberate. It's just our neurology gets wired in from all these messages we absorb from parents, teachers, media, culture, and so forth. That when we connect to the part of us that believes it, then have the conversation.

Like, how do you. Like, did you have one? One part of my process is asking, did you ever actually see with your eyes?

Sales is hard. Like, we'll go back to a memory that. That comes up in the subconscious mind. That may have been the first time this person would have learned this. Right.

Okay, let's go back to that memory. You ever actually see with your eyes? Sales is hard. Yeah.

Yeah, that's really good. I saw with my eyes that hitting a curveball is hard, but definitely not sales, so.

Well, you saw. You did. You though. You saw.

Oh, yeah, I was just too slow. I look, I never went look, Scott's. Scott's the professional athlete between the two of us, right? I'm the professional, you know, sitter. But.

There'S a whole conversation you could have around this, right? Like, you know, you could go. You brought up like 30 things that I could talk to you about for an hour.

Like, I go deep quick. I go deep quick, guys.

So. No, we appreciate it. So. But I did. I did like that comment about, you know, that piece and the other thing I'll comment on and then I've got to go do the mid roll with us is, you know, that whole used car salesman thing, but bugs the crap out of me. And it is my belief that it's because of the grapes of Wrath. Everybody read that book in high school. I don't know if they still have to, but there's a whole Chapter dedicated to the crappy used car salesman taking. Taking advantage of the joads like it's. And it's just. It's anyway, so I always think that's where some of that got laid into our mindset. But need to pull out of this for a second and then I know we'll switch it and let drive. Joel, if you want to ask us some questions or if there's something else you want to make sure we cover, we will. But I want to mention the DTC pod, which is part of the HubSpot podcast network, which is hosted by Ramon Barrios and Blaine Bullas.

And they talk about everything direct to consumer. Right. They cover everything from starting growing, optimizing e commerce stores, DTC direct to consumer. Talk with founders, marketers and platforms and creators about marketing. This is Scott. I know you don't really listen to podcasts, but you might want to go listen to that for your GTM United. There's your free plug.

But anyway, go check those guys out. It is very interesting and they always have some interesting guests and inform in informative information. Geez, my language is off today. So.

You did it. You did it. It's kind of like when your typing skills disappeared after you came back.

Yeah, it totally is. My talking skills are gone.

Yeah.

You haven't had enough conversations lately, Richard. You need to start prospecting again. Get your conversation.

I've been, I've been letting AI, you know, talk for you. You do all my talking and typing for me. So that is.

How's that working? How's that working out? Is it working?

Well, you know, if you look at the HubSpot, you know, AI piece, it's pretty good. It's helping me with some emails to clients. So, you know, there you go.

So, hey, Joel, how did you decide to make the transition to going this entrepreneurial route? What was that. What was that change like for you.

Man? I mean, in a sense, it was.

A phrase I like to use is the choiceless choice. This idea of. On your journey in life, if you're really listening to your soul and tuning in to what makes you come alive and who you really are, then that starts to become clear what those choices need to be for, you know, these major decisions in life and your, your trajectory and your purpose. And so.

And you've had, and you've had a few. I mean, you started off your career in music.

Yeah.

And then move to working at, you know, career hackers and now this. Like, that's a huge adjustment. One that you don't often hear.

Yeah, I mean, my first, my first professional passion was music, and I fell in love with that in high school. But then sort of I was studying, so studying music education in college. That was my degree. It's a program to prepare me to become a music educator in the K12 system. But my curious mind was developing, so I was starting to ask myself questions about what education is. And that really is the seed of all that, like, entrepreneurial shift that took place, ended up taking place in my early 30s.

Because I was asking questions about my philosophy of education and what are the optimal ways that children learn. And that led me pretty quickly to realize that the standard conventional school system paradigm is not nurturing children's curiosity and the natural learning process. So I became pretty fired up early on in my 20s to actually make a dent in this world when it comes to new paradigms and new ways that we can raise children and educate children and so forth. So that. But that was all just sort of.

Marinating throughout my 20s as I was actually working in the system and I was expressing my passion for music. But I was always kind of, I like to say, anti passionate about the school system. I was like, in the system while I was despising the actual structure of the system.

But that led me to fast forward to connect with Isaac Morehouse. I know you know Isaac Morehouse, who's now with.

Reveal and Nearbound, but his first company is called Praxis, which is a career launch program for young people as alternative to college and helping people break into startups without relying on this, like, follow the rules, check the boxes, go to college, get the degree, get the credentials, all this stuff that's kind of what we would call the education conveyor belt of just do what you're supposed to do and check the boxes. And practice was like, hey, forget all that, break the rules. What do you want to do with your life? Go follow that curiosity, Go create value for companies. Go create portfolios and projects and pitches and actually create value. And that's the mindset that matters in the marketplace. And as this whole new paradigm opened up for what's possible for. For sort of the intersection between career launch and education. So that really got me fired up and eventually pitched Isaac to work for him in his second company, which became Career Hackers.

So, yeah, it's all this, like, it's all this actualization and manifestation of that inner desire from, at my core, my core true self to create new visions, new paradigms, and for how we can, we can live and how we can ultimately raise children. So it all kind of comes back together because I think so much of this, this mindset of like, follow the rules, check the boxes that we, that you see for people who haven't really experienced the marketplace and they're, you know, they're coming out of college and they're just trying to follow the rules. It's like, that's because they've been following the rules since they were five years old. Right. So. And because again, going back to the belief systems, we develop a lot of limiting beliefs and we get into like a permission based mindset. We don't believe that we can go do things unless the authority figures said we're supposed to do it. Right. So, like, I know you've talked about that, Scott. Like, just stop waiting for permission and just go do things. Like, go just.

Dude, you are, you are Scott's spirit animal goal, like 100%. Like. And I, you know, having known Scott and cared about him for so long, like, he has so much of what you talk about in him. And I know that I say this in a positive way. I certainly wish I had it, but I definitely know Scott would be like, if I had only had that at 20. If I'd only had that at 25.

Oh, yeah.

You know, yeah.

That's why I said before, you know, he was out there talking about and learning about this stuff at 18 years old.

Yeah.

Have any clue that it existed until I was in my late 20s.

I mean, I was late 40s, but I'm a different generation, you know, or my early 40s. Sorry, I should say, I guess that's not true, my mid-30s. But Joel, we gotta, you know, as we get close to wrapping it up, we always like to turn it back to you, to the guest and see if there's any questions you'd like to ask. So fire away.

Yeah, I mean, one, like, sort of specific question that comes to mind is like, what do you guys think about with sales professionals?

Sort of hesitations people might have, maybe that you've had earlier on in your career or people you've worked with. Have you ever. What, what thoughts do you have on hesitations people have to ask for the sale? Because in my sort of, you know, few years of, of entering business and starting to learn sales, and.

I found myself at the beginning having some, some of my own inner blocks about actually making that pitch. Hey, will you. Would you like to do it? Would you like to do the deal on some of those closing conversations? And I mean, you could take this any direction about any sort of blocks when it comes to sales. But like I know for me I, when I started clearing, clearing my own beliefs about what sales is in my subconscious mind, then so much unlocked.

So do you, have you seen that in your breadth of experience in terms of hesitation on closing?

So a couple things popped in my mind. One is I think the negative self talk in general around the sales career. I also think that particular skill lives everywhere in our life. But nobody talks about it as closing. And there's, and it certainly at the education level, right. Like there's there, you know, particularly when I was coming along, there was no college degree in sales. Like it wasn't even an option.

So I think it's sort of, for lack of a better phrase there because it's not talked about. Nobody's talked about, you know, closing the interview or closing, you know, how did you close your parents to go to spring break or you know, all that kind of stuff, which is the same thing.

And then I think at the psychological level, I think for people who are newer into sales.

There'S a fear of the rejection. But what I really think that is is a fear of rejection in relation to self worth. And in some cases I think it's even fear of rejection from their parent because they put their prospect or customer so on a pedestal that they don't want to be disappointing to them. But that's, you know, I could be projecting my own bullshit, but I feel like that's what I've seen and talk to people about the most.

I, I think there's.

There'S a blocker potentially.

That people have to get over because they think, well, I would never buy something from a total stranger who reach out to me out of the clear blue. Like, have you ever bought something because somebody cold call you? I think most salespeople would say no.

And so now you have to realize that not everybody is like you and built like you. And just because you haven't bought something from a cold call doesn't mean that people don't buy things from a cold call. Similar hang ups I think exist around price and cost. Right? I mean, I can remember when I was first getting into sales and I don't know, I was asking somebody for let's call it $10,000. And I remember thinking to myself like, oh my gosh, this is so much money, I can't fathom $10,000. And I, you know, you're like forcing the number out of your mouth. You're not used to it. You have a belief that 10 grand is a lot. But for some people, 10 grand is nothing. They can find it in their couch cushions. So why am I projecting my own feeling about this particular number.

Onto my prospect? Right. And that. And I think people feel that every time they talk about a bigger number for the first time. You take 10k and make it 100k. I bet there's a lot of people who sell $10,000 products who would pause and take a big gulp before they ask Joel for 100 grand. Take that 100 grand and now add another zero and you're asking for a million. A lot more people are taking a gulp. Those are the two big things, I think, that people have to kind of push through and get over in order to, as you called it, go for the close.

Yeah, I've got, I've got something else I'll add to it as well, is that purchasing and pricing is always an emotional decision. It has a feeling. Right. This is why there's the impulse buy at the grocery store. Right. This is why, if you didn't know this, they have increased the size of grocery carts by about 40%. Why? Because we instinctively and impulsively want to fill them up, particularly if we see other people with full ones. So I think there's this emotional piece that goes to it, and we're not allowed to talk about our emotions. We're not allowed to talk about sex, religion, politics, and money. Right. We've all been conditioned, as you said, you know, earlier, habituated on that, and now we're being told to do this, and we've had no real frame of reference for it. And I, I think, to Scott's point, you know, particularly if you're early in your sales career.

The idea of even having $10,000 to do something while you're still trying to get your student loans paid and make rent and all that stuff is just. It's fearful because you just don't. You don't have that frame of reference. So I think there's a deep emotional connection to this around money. Right. Money doesn't have a look or a sound. You know, it's like, how does that price sound?

I don't know.

It sounds silly. You know, it doesn't have a sound, has a feeling. So anyway, that. That would be my last piece on that. I would want to add, well, we got to go quick. But, Joel, can you give like a 60 second. What's your reason, what's your. What's your thought around why people are afraid to ask for the close and then we'll wrap it up?

Yeah. I mean, it's a cluster of beliefs that a part of them is holding onto that could be a whole combination of self worth. I'm not good enough, I can't do it. I'm not valuable enough. Nobody cares about me. Like those types of things are just, they're just these programs that are, that are running on your operating system that are contributing to your state, combined with beliefs about sales and money. Sales is dishonest money. If you could have stuff like I had. Money is evil. I mean again, recognizing that this is the subconscious mind and it's not, you might not believe it consciously, but if you have it subconsciously, that's going to create a filter and it's gonna, that's gonna create those emotions.

So it's all just the stories, you know, because there's no actual objective way to prove that money, that $10,000 is a lot of money or anything like this. But it's when we have these filters going on in the subconscious mind, then that creates the emotions. So that's why I like to highlight that for people that it's something that you can, you can let go of and you don't need to just push through it all the time. Now it's might be a process to let go of a hundred percent of it, but you can make, you can make drastic shifts when you start letting go of the beliefs.

That's a good way to. Yeah, make, you can make, what was it? You can make drastic shifts when you let go of the beliefs.

Yeah, yeah. My experience, if you just clear one belief, if you just let go of the belief I'm not good enough, that's going to change your whole life forever. And you keep, you know, I, I usually work with people for 12 weeks and we're clearing, you know, 50 to 60 beliefs in these, in these most important beliefs that are applicable to them and that ends up creating enormous shifts over that time.

That's great, man. Thank you so much for coming on. How can people get a hold of you? Obviously, you know, LinkedIn is one, but what else you want to give out?

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much. Yeah, I'm actually offering some, some free calls if people want to test out this, this belief clearing method and you can go to thehumanliberation co surf and there'll be a little landing page just for listeners of this podcast and you can just, you can just book a call and mike and, and go to my calendly and find a time and I'm, I'm really just wanting to share this with people so that we can as I build this business and, and, and share that this, this is possible to actually have a lot of these drastic shifts in a very fast and permanent way. So I want people to, to experience it and that's where you can go. TheHumanLiberation co surf.

Cool. Thanks man. Thanks for putting that out there. We appreciate it.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Appreciate you spending time with us, Joel. Man on a mission. Joel. By and everybody and we will see you next time on the surf and sales podcast.

Bye everybody.