Podcast: Holistic Yoga, Ashrams & Gurus with Meghan Kemp

this life is an opportunity to move beyond our karma and move into a more dharmic state of living, and living life with great intention and purpose and mastery, and to essentially be of greater service and ease to all. And this is universal. And so to be able to share this insight with other people and to help them see life from that broader context is It's just a blessing. This is all an illusion, okay? Like, hit me in the face. Like, hit me in the face and see if that's an illusion.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Welcome to Spiritual But Not Ridiculous, a podcast that explores the world of spirituality from a grounded and clear-eyed perspective. I'm your host, Jayadev, a yoga teacher. Vedic astrologer, attorney, and technologist. My guest this week is Megan Kemp, a dedicated student and teacher of yoga who is integrating Eastern practices into Western culture, which is why I was so excited to talk to her. She's been practicing yoga since she was 14 and teaching asana, meditation, breathwork, and kriya for the past 5 years. Following a year of living, studying, and teaching at an ashram in northern India, Megan has returned to the States to share these transformational practices with all walks of life. She is also a budding Vedic astrologer and offers astrology readings as a means to alleviate suffering and increase joy. Our conversation spanned a wide spectrum of topics, all orbiting around the broad and rich practices of yoga, from the elements that make up a holistic yoga practice to ashram life, and the role of a guru on the spiritual path, to cults, to the question of enlightenment and Vedic astrology. It was so great to do this interview in person instead of over Zoom. So here's my conversation with Meghan. So welcome, Meghan. So happy that you're my first guest on the podcast.

Thanks, Chad. I'm excited to be here.

Yeah, we, uh, we go back a little ways. Uh, we've known each other for what, like about 4 years?

Yeah, right back in 2017.

Yeah, and we're kind of— we've been kind of following the same path or similar path for that time. Um, so yeah, I met you 4 years ago in India at this yoga academy where I was taking a mantra training with Kia Miller, and you were there for—

Well, I was following Kia Miller there, but I wasn't there for that specific Right.

Yes. So you were there to just be in the— like, there was a summit, like a yoga summit happening at— it was at Satva Yoga Academy.

Yes.

So you did that, right?

Yeah, I did that because it was the first time they had done it. I had no context of what was going to happen there, and I just saw the intro video and it showed the Himalayas, and I said, I'm going.

Right, right. Because you're a fan of, like, the Himalayas, basically.

Yeah, basically.

And Nepal.

Yeah, yeah, I'm into that.

Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful up there.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think, um, for people like us, it's been You know, hard not to go to India or be able to go to India during this time. But at the same time, that's obviously like such a privileged problem to have, and people are really suffering. And so it's been heartbreaking to see the suffering in India.

Yeah, definitely, especially in those more rural communities without as much access to resources. But also cool to see how people are able to support from afar and how we're still able to be held by India and hopefully hold India in our hearts as well.

Yeah, yeah, it's so great. Like, so many people we know in our community have been putting up these fundraisers, and really all of us have been doing different things to give back to the, to the community and to India as a whole. So maybe I'll link to some of that stuff in the show notes or something. Yeah, but, uh, yeah, I wanted to, I wanted to have you on because I wanted to talk about yoga and some of the experiences we've had and maybe some of the challenges that come with the spiritual path.

Challenges?

Challenges, challenges. And also, like, just, you know, because the theme of this podcast, as you know, is to try to find, like, the veins of gold within what can seem like, you know, a lot of spiritual ego or, you know, commercialization or whatever it is, like corruption of spirituality. You know, and so like that's the kind of the theme of every episode, and so that's part of it, it's like part of the conversation we're gonna have, uh, today.

Great.

Um, yeah, so, uh, yeah, so we both have studied the same style of yoga, we both have had similar experiences living in kind of an ashram setting, and yeah, studying with people in India and all that. So I'm excited to get into that topic.

Yeah, me too. Yeah, lots to unpack.

Yes. So I wanted to start with a question about the spiritual path. There's these 2 quotes that I have that kind of tee up like a— what seems like a dichotomy. So one quote is from Swami Rama, a book that we both read.

Love that book.

And he says, the path of enlightenment is the toughest path, and that seeking is the hardest task. So that's one perspective. And then Elizabeth Lesser, the founder of Omega Institute, she says, the spiritual path teaches us how to float on our backs, relaxed and aware, in the waters of reality. And so it's like 2 different perspectives.

Very polarizing.

And, you know, I mean, I've definitely felt personally that it is a hard path because it, you know, for one reason, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts, like You're maybe more alienated from other people, or you're just like feeling different from society, let's say. I don't know, what's your—

Yeah, it's funny. At this stage, I feel more connected to humanity than I've ever felt, and also more isolated from humanity than ever. It gives you this access to your heart space and seeing how we're all on a spiritual path, regardless if we're tapping into certain practices or resources. And then as we start to dive into that path, you uncover so much of yourself and what you want to create for your life. And in that process, there's a lot of letting go of that which isn't aligned with the path or not in line with your highest intentions.

Yeah, it takes a lot of courage or a lot of willingness to be sort of independent and to break away from conditioned Society or conditioned expectations about how you should live your life and all that, right?

Yeah, definitely. But I think it's beautiful to see over time how people understand that that's the path you're on. And they— I now get a call from my mom and she's like, where in the world are you? And I'm like, great, this is a huge leap from where it was when I first decided to go traveling and be nomadic, and her wanting to know my every step of And move. And it's freeing in a lot of ways. But it is also, yeah, it requires a sort of grit and determination to be on the path. But I think once you start to sip in that awareness, it's really hard to let go. Because you start to lift the veil, so to speak.

Yeah. And I think in terms of the difficulty, in my experience, there's kind of a dance, right? There's aspects that are challenging. And of course, there's this concept in yoga that I'm sure a lot of listeners are familiar with, which is tapas, you know, where you're intentionally doing something hard or, you know, committing to some, you know, discipline over a set period of time in order to achieve some spiritual benefit or, you know, some punya or whatever you want to call it.

Mm-hmm.

And so there's this kind of push and pull where you're doing these practices that are hard, or you're doing— you're on a path that's difficult in some cases. cases. But then hopefully you get some benefits, like you experience the benefits of that, of doing that.

Yeah.

And so it's like self-reinforcing. So there's like a nice feedback cycle, hopefully.

Definitely.

Yeah.

And I think it's fair to say that people will step away from the path because it is challenging, and then come back to it over time. And generally, people are propelled onto it when something life-changing— when the, when the rug is pulled out from beneath them, and they then have to look at aspects of their life that they might not have been engaging with before.

Yeah.

So it's an invitation always open to But yeah, there's some of us that when we open that door, a lot of us, we can't close it. We keep going and going.

Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting what you say about like what might draw you to the path, or like so often it's having something like quote-unquote go wrong in your life, or like something like that quote-unquote bad happen, you know. That's usually when you're more open to maybe going on the path. And yeah, so that's such a great reminder that the way grace operates is through these seemingly sort of like bad, you know, events or whatever. Yeah. So lessons, lessons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, that's— does that answer the question? Is it hard or is it easy? It's a little bit of both.

It's a little bit of both. I think, you know, at this stage, I can't imagine my life without meditation, without a daily practice. But a few years back, it would be really hard for me to I don't think, how am I gonna meditate every day for the rest of my life?

Yeah.

And I don't plan in that same context. I don't think about what I'm doing today has to happen every single day. It's just become such a foundational principle of my life that my life organizes around it.

Mm-hmm.

And in that, more blossoms from it.

Mm-hmm.

And whenever those lessons present themselves, there's these resources and tools that we've gained through the path or through practices to fall back on. So life still happens, life's still hard regardless, but at least this gives you some parameters to sort through it.

Yeah. And I think maybe the ease, part of the ease that Elizabeth Lesser is talking about is like your approach. If you are not trying to control everything, and you're not having any expectations, then maybe it's a little easier. And you can kind of Eventually, or quickly, get to a point where you're floating in some sense. And like you were saying, you build a foundation of practices that do then sort of pave the road a little bit, I think. But then still, there's going to be fluctuation where you backslide, or 2 steps forward, one step back.

Though we never go back. We can move forward.

Right, there's no going back. But there's fluctuation. My friend, a good friend of mine, says fluctuation happens. And yeah, it's just a fact of the path, and you have to— I think you have to be very— you have to go easy on yourself and have a lot of self-compassion.

Yeah.

And not be so serious about it, right?

Yeah, yeah, it can't be ridiculous.

Right, right, or ridiculous. Yeah, so yeah, okay, well, I think we answered that question.

Yeah, great.

Um, so yeah, so I wanted to talk more broadly about yoga too, because for me recently, this summer especially, Mm-hmm. In the past few months, as we talked about before we started taping, I've been going through this process where some of the practices that I've been doing for years have been falling away in my personal practice, and then I've maybe adopted other practices, or like, it's like my view of yoga has broadened, or my view of the spiritual path has broadened beyond maybe even like, maybe it's not just yoga for me, you know. That's what I'm kind of thinking about these days. And so I wanted to talk about like sort of what is yoga, where does it fit in with the broader like spiritual path. If, you know, you want to— if you want to embark on a spiritual path, you know, is yoga part of that? How can— how can it fit into all that? What else can you do? But so I wanted to start that discussion with talking about what yoga is, because I feel like it's kind of important these days especially to kind of define it or to like to talk about it in a more expansive way.

Yeah.

So many people still, I think, think of yoga as the postures where you're just stretching, which is great. Asana is amazing and very important, but there's so much more to it. So, I mean, this is kind of a big question, but like, how do you define yoga? If somebody, like, if somebody you didn't know asked you, yeah, what's yoga? You know, you teach yoga.

Yeah, good question. So I think about my experience in this way. I started yoga at a young age doing asanas, or the postures. my soul was really drawn to it for the purpose of shavasana, really. It was the allure of that resting peacefulness that happened at the end of the postures.

Mm-hmm.

And that experience kept me curious. It had me searching or seeking out more and looking to discover more of what was happening beneath the surface there. That experience was yoga. That, that was the unity between the mind, the body, the moment, the breath, like all of it coming together and not feeling any sort of disconnect or dis-ease, that there's just this being. And there's so many ways to access that space and to then broaden the experience of that space. And so yoga from a wider lens includes practices, studies, texts, um, all, all of the above, uh, meditation. You know, there's so many systems to help us organize ourselves in order to experience that unity consciousness or cosmic consciousness and see how it's all interconnected. Uh, yoga, meaning to unite or to yoke, to unify. all into one. And yeah, so I, I think that it's amazing that so many people are practicing asanas right now, because we have to prepare the body to then hold a posture. We can sit in stillness and access those places of transcendence through practices like meditation or breathwork, breathwork and meditation, concentration. And then we open up the veil and can see— How nature is.

Yeah, yeah, beautiful, beautiful answer. Hey, uh, yeah, so yoga is— it's a practice. Well, one of our teachers would say it's a state and a practice and an experience. Um, but the— it's just— it's a practice for helping you to have the direct experience of unity.

Yes.

Um, unity with what, or between what and what?

Well, what I would call God now. I was never someone who used the G word, but I love to think of it as the generator, organizer, and destroyer, God, and universe, nature, whatever it is. It's something that's much larger than this experience of my own consciousness.

Mm-hmm.

So it's the consciousness of all, the collective consciousness and the cosmic consciousness, the interwoven space that we exist in and time that we exist in and seeing our role in it From a way wider lens, wider bandwidth.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's great. I mean, I think one thing that people don't realize, and that's why I think, like you were saying a minute ago, especially like asana and even power yoga or whatever, is important because it's such a nice, approachable sort of gateway, you know, practice for people to just come into. And it's simple and accessible, and you feel like you're working out. And I mean, you are working out. And yeah, so like, I mean, I'm sure for you, like for me, I started off with Bikram and I thought it was the best thing ever.

I started with Bikram too.

Yeah. And so like, it's so important, I think, in every— yeah, so every style of yoga is good because if you stick with it, it will lead you closer and closer to like the truth or whatever that is. But yeah, you know, it's, it's like a progression. So you can't really realistically like dump people into the deep end right off the bat. Like I think about— we'll get into this later, I'm sure, but like, you know, eventually the experiences that you and I were having In India, if you just did that like right away, you'd be like, this is so weird, crazy, right? So it's like, you can't— it's almost like you can't tell people like everything right away. But yeah, so you can say, you know, at the beginning you could say, oh, it's a unity between your body and mind, or unity between you and like—

Right.

You can start to throw in like totality or these other words. But yeah, ultimately it's the unity that you can experience, the unity between your small self and your higher self. Or yeah, between Atman and Brahman or whatever, you know. So, so yeah.

Nice summation there.

And it's amazing because I think— so I had the same experience you had. My first real taste of unity or transcendence was in shavasana in a vinyasa class in San Francisco at Yoga Tree, which is, I think, closed now.

Yeah.

And Yeah, and I just wanted more of that. And so that was kind of what pushed me into a teacher training. I just wanted— yeah, I wanted to find that experience more consistently. And so what's beautiful about the more, like, energetic practices like Kriya or pranayama or those things is that they give you that direct experience more consistently, in my experience, right?

And rapidly too.

And rapidly. Yeah, not that there's any hurry.

No, no, many lifetimes to experience it.

I mean, that's something I do want to talk about too, is Yeah, like the purpose of practicing when you're already perfect, right?

Yeah.

But maybe we can come back to that. But, you know, so asana is important in the beginning, right?

Asana is important in my perspective where I'm sitting right now, always. Because— and it doesn't have to be like a sun salutation as far as asana goes, or 100 of them. I think the connection of yourself to your body is so vital for an integrated being and an integrated experience of yoga. I come from a background where I was initially drawn to alignment and wanted to discover more and truth through alignment. And over time, I've definitely dropped that. Like, I think alignment is a great tool for teaching, but it's easy to get caught in that because— It's a level of perfectionism. But point aside.

But it's important to—

Health.

Well, also to have the knowledge at least of like some, some boundaries or some like guidelines for not like injuring yourself. So definitely you should at least know enough to not do certain things where you're going to jeopardize your knee or your ankle or whatever, that kind of thing.

Yeah. But I think that asana strengthens your core, your spine as well. So it allows there to be the transference of energy in the more subtle planes of your body, which then give you access to those spaces with greater ease and longevity. Because if you're in pain seated in meditation for 20 minutes, it's going to be quite distracting. But asanas are wonderful for alleviating that pain and strain and helping your body with longevity too.

Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, if you're— and for me, like, if you're going to approach Yoga from an elemental standpoint, or like thinking about the importance of grounding, you know, and the earth element.

Mm-hmm.

You know, the style I teach is very much oriented around the elements, and I think yoga itself since ancient times has been organized around the elements too, to some degree. And yeah, so it's important. The asana is giving you this grounding, this like you're going, you're being, you're bringing your awareness more into your body.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I think Iyengar said that You should bring your awareness to every cell of your body when you're doing a pose or something like that.

There's a lot in that question though. What was— what else are we not touching on yet?

In terms of like what yoga is?

Yeah.

Yeah. Let's take the discussion maybe a little bit broader beyond even like physical practices, because yoga can be so much more than that, right? So there's like bhakti yoga, there's jnana yoga, which is sort of more the wisdom and correcting the intellect and all that. And what else? Karma yoga, right? So Raja Yoga, less meditation, right? Yeah, we're talking about the yogas that are enumerated in the Bhagavad Gītā, right? Mm-hmm.

Basically.

Yes. So yeah, so Bhakti Yoga, I think most people know about, at least know about the Hare Krishnas. So there's like that kind of devotional style, but it's so much more than just Hare Krishna, of course.

Yeah, definitely. It's a, it's a real great pathway to the heart and using the heart as leverage to those spaces. Absolutely.

I think— I'm curious to hear what you think. I mean, I feel like most people, or a lot of people, when you say devotion, it maybe turns them off even. I don't know, like, it sounds— it might sound a little bit to somebody who maybe comes from Christianity or something, yeah, West, like, it might sound a little bit like religion, or I don't know, loss of control, or something, you know. How do you think about devotion?

Yeah, great question, because I did not understand that word when I first started to, like, do these practices that we've explored, it brings— when, when the benefit was it brings you into a devotional space, I was like, what do you mean? Like, I don't understand what I'm being devoted to. But I like—

Well, a good example, like, is— and this is a small example, but I feel like a lot of people I've noticed when they go to a class and there's a sort of tradition, even in a yoga studio in, you know, New York, there's a tradition where at the end of the class everyone bows and At the end of the practice, and some people are like, wait a minute, everyone's bowing to the teacher? Like, what is this, a cult? You know, like, yeah, that kind of stuff I think people get confused about.

Totally.

Yeah.

But I think when you start to experience nature— nature to me has been the conduit to what devotion is, and being out and immersed in nature and natural elements, it brings alive the mystery of life and that perspective. And you start to see the organization at play of what had to come into fruition to be here in this moment and take it all in. And through that awareness, then I had something to bow towards and to be grateful for, that so much had to align that was out of my wherewithal and knowledge.

Yeah.

And, um, yeah, and, and that's where, like, the God word comes into play, but it It is tricky because there's been such conditioning in the society around what God is, or the imagery around it too.

Right, like Pete Holmes says, he's the Burger King in the sky, or whatever. Yeah, I think devotion, I think in the beginning you can kind of say that it's just devotion to yourself, or to your higher self, and then you can say it's devotion to something higher than that, maybe totality, or God, or whatever. the divine, the goddess. But it— I think it's also another way to look at it is it's like a way of just opening yourself spiritually, or like cultivating receptivity within yourself. And there's also an element— would you say there's also an element of surrender to devotion? Is that part of it, or is that different?

Definitely, definitely connected, because I think when we have all these points of resistance come up around a word like devotion or God or religion, There is a gripping to an identity that's associated with that knowledge. And so to be able to surrender the belief system or structures that we've been taught and be open to something else, or be open to just uncovering what it is within us that has us asking these questions—

who am I?

What is this all about? What's the purpose of all this? And then from there, can start to get into that heart space.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, so that's bhakti yoga, that's devotional yoga. Karma yoga, of course, you can be of selfless service in the world in different ways. That's another form of yoga. And then, yeah, jnana yoga. I think we'll talk about that more probably as we get into talking about spiritual bypass and gurus and all that stuff. But yeah, there's so much more to yoga than just asana.

That was a really loaded question.

But it's something I've been thinking about because I've noticed with myself, I go through these cycles where— because I feel like I've been toying with this idea over the past few years that life is like a spiral.

Mm.

So for me, at least in my experience, like, it feels like the way life operates is that you kind of come around through an experience or like a practice or a belief, and then you kind of go around like the spiral, maybe away from it a little bit, and then back to it in a deeper way. It's been my experience anyway. So like, I personally have had these cycles where I'm practicing really diligently and a lot, like every day, twice a day, or whatever, different yoga practices. And then I'll have periods where I'm sort of taking a break from it and reorienting myself and kind of examining it from the outside and all these things. So it's something that I think about a lot, like what is yoga? And if I'm taking a quote-unquote break from yoga, is that really a break from yoga, or am I just not doing Maybe asana or kriya, but I'm doing jnana yoga or karma yoga or bhakti yoga or whatever, right? So maybe at some point— I'm sure everyone's heard the cliché, everything's yoga, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And so at some point, maybe like your approach to things can be yogic, and whatever you do can have this sort of— it can be infused with a certain kind of yoga, you know, viewpoint.

Yeah, because how— it'd be difficult to say that you're not practicing when you have so much experience with the practice that has shifted you into the person you are today and the way that you engage with life. And so I think once a yogi, always a yogi, or something like that, depending on if you like that identity.

Yeah, well, I like what you're saying because it makes me think of jnana yoga, which is this Correcting the intellect, wisdom. What you're saying reminds me of the experiences I've had, especially in satsangs in India with our teacher or other teachers, where I'll be sitting there just hearing a talk by a teacher, and I'll feel my consciousness expanding just from that talk.

Mm-hmm.

And so, so what you're saying reminds me of that experience where I feel like I leave that talk, or I leave that experience with a permanently altered consciousness. And so then in all my— in my life after that, I'm sort of applying that increased wisdom or that different orientation to everything, hopefully. And so I think for me, like, especially the past 3 or 4 years, this jnana yoga has been maybe the most important practice in a certain sense because it ties directly back to the theme of this podcast in a way, because, you know, I'm very much concerned with spiritual bypass, spiritual ego, spiritual materialism, and, you know, the over-commercialization of yoga and all that. And I think, I think that the, the most effective solution to all those things is jnana yoga, or like, you know, going to wisdom talks or reading yogic scriptures or whatever it is. And so, yeah, so I think I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Like, have you had that experience with satsangs? And I should say satsangs are just like a talk where there's a teacher talking, basically. Sometimes it's a lecture, sometimes it's a Q&A, but—

Or a dharma talk.

Or a dharma talk, yeah. Another name for it is dharma talk. It's more common in the West. So anyways, yeah, have you had that experience with a talk? I mean—

So yes, I have had that experience, but I will say that I think it's really unique to you and your path as well. And that there's so many different paths, to kind of circle back to what we had addressed. And it makes so much sense that you are putting energy into this work and into enlivening your consciousness and then sharing it through the same ways that you've felt you've learned the most.

Mm-hmm.

And by talking and discussing and reading. That has definitely been relevant for me, but I've felt that through what we call journeys, I have my consciousness expanded.

Yeah, me too, me too.

But ultimately, during those journeys, there is a restructuring of the framework of ideas and how to approach life and how to engage in it in those moments. So, and it's all part of a bigger picture. So I think that yes, there needs to be some way for people to access different perspectives in order for them to widen their consciousness or broaden into it.

Yeah, and I think maybe talking about a satsang as separate from a journey or a class or whatever is a little bit of an artificial distinction because So often in a good class, hopefully the teacher is dropping in little bits of wisdom. I mean, some of the best classes and my favorite teachers have been those teachers, right? Who— there's like wisdom coming in like as you're doing the asana or whatever you're doing, right? So, so yeah, it's a continuum too.

Yeah.

And yeah, but you're right. And it's funny because I've always been such a sort of reader and an intellectual and, you know, very much in my head. And so when I first encountered yoga and I found out about jnana yoga, I was like, I shouldn't do that because I feel like it's feeding this, like, oversized tendency of mine to be in my head. And I should just do— I should be more of the embodied practices, you know. But you're right though. I mean, it's a sort of natural aptitude or it's a natural tendency I have and I enjoy it. So why not embrace it?

That's good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no reason to resist it. But yeah, it's so important, I feel, Sometimes to directly correct people's conditioned thinking or misperception of reality.

But they have to be open to it.

They have to be open to it, absolutely.

They have to be inquiring.

Yeah. And so it feels like such a refined, kind of elevated, almost inaccessible thing, experience, for people to have, because at least the way I've encountered it for the most part has been having to travel to India, find some teacher. Not everybody's going to have access to that experience.

However, if you look at this past year, how many people who would have never gone to India were able to take courses from their home?

True.

And I mean, we have all of these resources online. Yes, there's almost like so many options and how do you discern? I think that's a big, big thing to be mindful of as you go deeper into these practices is the discernment qualities and factors. But then there's this thread of truth through it all and you go from one school to another and you're like, Oh, they've just applied similar words or slightly different words to the same structure or foundation.

Yeah.

But yeah, it takes worthy inquiry, and then when you have that, you'll get the answers. You'll be guided naturally.

Yeah, that's right. The challenge for people who are offering wisdom talks or dharma talks, I think sometimes, is that other people who may be interested in those things are turned off by the fact that they don't fit the kind of old, you know, sage on a mountaintop archetype or whatever, right?

Yeah.

So there's a little bit of a resistance sometimes to that.

Yeah, and I think that's where if you're looking for someone to learn from, there's so many different types of teachers out there, and it takes trying them on and seeing which ones do resonate with you and accepting what does feel like truth to you and then leaving the rest.

Mm-hmm.

And perhaps you find that teacher, whatever body suit they are wearing can be a conduit for that information. Some of my wisest friends or people in my life are way younger than me and have such a profound intuition.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, I think it does require allowing that conditioned expectation to go and to drop and to be open to receiving wisdom. From all situations and different teachers.

So how do you— let me ask you this. How do you find a teacher that's right for you? Or how do you find your teacher, if that's the thing you're looking for?

For me personally, I— and I can't speak on behalf of everybody, but for me, I just kept going to my favorite teachers from an asana perspective. I loved how one teacher sequenced. It was unique. It was different. I said, who's your teacher? Then I went to there, I did a retreat with her teacher, and then I said, okay, who's your teacher? And then went to the next. Then from that, I think the 4th stage of it was what brought me to India. And now I'm in a position where I feel like I have access to someone who has great wisdom, and I can impart that and learn it. Live it and then start to teach it as well and as I embody it.

Yeah.

So—

Do you have to go to India to find a teacher? Yeah.

No, but I think that you can find teachers wherever, but you know what sounds true to you and what doesn't and what ignites— or for me at least, I found that these people ignited something in me and I wanted to understand more.

Yeah, but I think you're highlighting what can be a little bit of like a Catch-22, or like a chicken and egg problem on the path, because to identify a sadhguru, like a true teacher, you need discernment on some level.

Yeah.

To be able to like separate the wheat from the chaff. And that's something that you develop by having a teacher. So it's a little bit of like, you have to have a little bit, and then you get more from the teacher, and then it's like, then it's like an ever-increasing process from there.

Yeah, definitely. And I mean, we talked about this in the Guru— or we read about this in the Guru Question book that we've both read. And you can see the community that a teacher has, and if you like what you're seeing in that community, then it's generally a good indication that that teacher is aligned with you.

Yeah, that's a good one. I'm all of a sudden thinking about Ron Dawson's experience meeting his teacher, which is totally unique. You know the story? Yes. Yeah, it's such a great story. Yeah, I mean, I'll tell it. Maybe we won't use it. I don't know. But it's such a great story because he goes— I mean, he found basically— well, so what Ram Dass— I mean, I'm sure everyone knows the story, but what Ram Dass did is he met Bhagavan Dass, whose name I forget. His, like, American name I forget. But from Laguna Beach, California. He was in India. And he seemed to have something special. And this is where an example of Ram Dass is using his sort of intuition and his, like, discernment maybe to identify Bhagavan Dass as somebody who maybe has some knowledge, some wisdom. And then he followed him to this ashram in the mountains where Neem Karoli Baba was the guru. And at the time, Ram Dass was still Richard Alpert, and he was still very much in his identity, like, as a Harvard professor and psychologist. of skepticism and everything, you know, I don't know about this, I don't know about that. And even though he was in India and he was sort of partially surrendering to Bhagavan Das, he goes to this thing and everybody's dressed, you know, dressed in white, and they're all sort of bowing to Neem Karoli Baba. And Ram Dass is like, no, this is not for me at all.

Touching his feet.

Touching his feet. He's like, no, this is so culty, or whatever. But then a few months earlier, Ram Dass's mother had died, and He hadn't told anybody about that very much, about that experience, especially Bhagavan Das or anybody in India. And then he had this really beautiful experience where he was out one night before they met Neem Karoli Baba, and he was out under the stars, and, and he was just really feeling connected to everything and thinking about his mother for the first time in a deep way since she died. And so he goes, and I think Neem Karoli Baba saw— I mean, you know the story, you can jump in if you want.

Yeah, the following day, I think Ram Dass was going to leave, Or something. And he, he was pulled into talking to Neem Karoli Baba, and he asked if he had seen his mother the night before, or if he was thinking about his mother.

He said something like, you were thinking about your mother last night, right? Something like that, right?

And then she died of kidney disease.

Right, he knew how she died.

Yeah. And he just lost it.

Yeah, he lost it.

Whatever this man is doing, I'm in.

Yeah, that's a pretty unique experience. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I mean, like, well, maybe we should go back a little bit first. So, I mean, do you think you need— does a person on a spiritual path need a guru, or like a—

Well, we all have the answers within.

Because you hear these stories like, you know, Ramana Maharshi didn't have a teacher, or Sadhguru, you know, is famous because he doesn't— he never had a teacher or a lineage. He just Is self-taught, you know. And I think a lot, I think a lot of people like that because it— I think the downside in people's minds about having a guru, or especially a lineage, is that there's such a high risk that there could— you could find out there's like some scandal or something.

A humanness.

A humanness. And then the whole thing gets taken down or whatever. And so if there's no teacher, then like, oh, you're— there's no risk of this, you know. Let's call it having a cult or being, you know, tricked or duped or whatever, right? So, so yes, you do need a teacher.

It's all a process of remembering what's true. Uh, technically, no, you don't. Some people don't. And but you can get further along in your path if you have the sage wisdom of someone that is a teacher. I mean, if you think about Any profession, any scholarship, like schooling, we all have essentially people that help us see our potential greater than we could see within ourselves and push us in that direction. They nudge us forward faster than we would because we oftentimes have fear or resistance to that capacity within us. So having a teacher, a spiritual teacher, Gives us those little nudges forward on the path, can call out the things that we're struggling with, with greater ease. They give us that perspective that is sometimes hard to see for ourselves if we don't have these tools embedded already.

Absolutely. Yeah, I think there's a guru principle, there's a sort of a teacher principle, I think, running all through nature. You could say that. I think that's actually a line from the Guru Gita. I have not. But, um, but yeah, there's this guru principle, and I think a teacher is just embodying that principle. And I think it's so essential, especially for people in the modern world who don't have much self-awareness, to have somebody who can serve that role of maybe helping them to break out of their ego a little bit, or to loosen up some of their attachments a little bit, and to help them see more clearly the places where they're not aware, or they're like, yeah, they're self-sabotaging or whatever. And I think there's a real benefit to that. And yeah, I personally have benefited immensely from having a teacher and, and to going through the traditional kind of surrender to a teacher process and see where that leads. That's— it's been all very beneficial to me.

How?

You know, I think it did help me to to learn to surrender more and to like get out of my own way a lot. And like I was saying before, a huge benefit was, I mean, learning practices, advanced practices, but also just being in these talks where a lot of my misconceptions about reality or about myself or about nature were being corrected by this teacher. And it was somebody who had demonstrated— I mean, I discovered this one teacher because he had come to training I was in and given a talk, and I could just see, I could just hear that he was speaking truth, and everything he was saying resonated with me, and it just seemed to have such deep wisdom, and he's very knowledgeable and very wise. And so there was a certain level of trust that I was able to give because of that experience, and then deepening that trust and deepening the sort of trust in him to be my teacher for, you know, for a period anyways was Was hugely transformational for me.

Do you have one shining example of that?

Yeah. So now you're the podcast interviewer?

Yeah, I told you this was gonna happen.

I love it. I love it. Yeah, I'll say there was a real benefit to the experience of living in community in India in kind of an ashram setting where there were a number of ways in which I had to get over myself, like living in a tiny room that was cold and didn't have any heat and was kind of depressing, you know, there was a benefit, I think, to having that experience and then getting over it and moving past it, you know. And especially coming from the West where I had a, you know, a good career and I was living in nice places, it— yeah, it's a real ego trip to be in a space where you're, um, it feels like you're starting over, you know. And, uh, just trusting that that process was gonna lead somewhere. And that was an example where I did actually kind of freak out, and I was actively planning to escape to a 5-star hotel in Delhi and never go back. And, you know, I had a talk with Anand, and he helped me to see and put, like, a different perspective on it and to remember why I was there and the benefits I was getting and all that, you know. So that's one example, you know.

Good.

Sort of entering into a severe ego trip and then having it— having almost like the— it's like almost like the ego trip is like this boil, and then your teacher is like lancing the boil, and then it's like you're healed.

Done!

Maybe, maybe. I don't know. Yeah. And what about you? Have you had a specific experience that you want to share?

I was told to be mindful of the secret complaints of my heart.

That's nice.

And to me, that felt like I was being seen. This is also through Anand, in a way that I don't even see myself. Like, when it was brought to light, I could then see, oh, that's where I have work to do. And then within that conversation, I asked, well, how? How do I manage these secret complaints that have apparently been with me forever? Because that feels true. And the answer was devotion and devotional practices to cut to my heart. And to— a major takeaway was to not get caught up in the smallness of things, addictive behaviors or tendencies.

Yeah.

Fears, attachment to a life that did have a lot of suffering within it, to be able to be grateful for those experiences and then to move forward with different prioritizations, such as having devotional acts as a daily practice for me.

Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking of another example where I was living in community in India at the Academy, and I had an experience where I felt very much like somebody needed to apologize to me, and I went to— actually went to our teacher, and I said, when is it appropriate to expect an apology from somebody? And he said, never.

And I was like, oh yeah, that's true.

So yeah, simple example, but stuff like that, you know, where you're just like, you're going around with this— it's, it's like the teacher is helping you to stop going around with this small idea of yourself and to be a bigger idea of yourself. A more elevated idea, more of a natural leader type, somebody who's not trapped in what you could call like sub-personalities, like the wounded child or the victim or the escapist or all these things, these ways that you have of protecting your ego basically, especially when you're a child, that are still lingering as you're— as you become an adult. I think the teacher can help you to, to become aware of those defense mechanisms and then to Find different ways to move through them.

Definitely. Yeah. And I also thought of one other great example too, on a more gross level, of just being pushed into uncomfortable situations or teachings, of being prompted to do things that I would never ask in terms of a teacher training. And okay, now you're gonna go teach a class in 10 minutes. Completely off the cuff.

Yes.

For students who have been practicing for years because they're there for a training. So you go teach them now in 10 minutes.

Yeah, I've had that experience too.

And you're just like, me? Wait, what? And so you have to just drop everything that you think you need to do. For me, it's a lot of planning and getting the playlist, getting the sequence, all of that, and be able to just learn to be in that moment even more. Yeah, it's just, it's great when you have people in your life like teachers to propel you forward.

Yeah, and to see your potential.

See your potential, yes, to be able to see you in a way wider way than before.

Yeah, yeah, when I showed up one year, when I showed up at the Academy, I was there for a certain purpose, and then the day I arrived, Anand said, actually, you're going to be teaching You're gonna be training the teachers in the training instead. And I was like, oh. And I didn't ever think of myself as having that. Like, I'd been— at that point I had been teaching for years and I'd already done multiple trainings. So I definitely had— I've done probably like 5 trainings at that point. But I had never thought of myself as like qualified, you know. And he saw that potential and I think, you know, hopefully he was— I think he was right, but who knows.

Yeah.

But that kept happening and he kept expecting more and more of me. And I— he kept pushing me into areas of discomfort that Really helped me grow as a result.

Yeah, and I think it's great to have a teacher that does that, and that you can also at some point understand that it was done in love.

Yes.

That, that push wasn't done to make you uncomfortable in a negative way. It was done to help you get past that old version of yourself.

So this brings us to a discussion around gurus and the imperfection of human beings and How to grapple with maybe like some disappointments around a teacher or that kind of thing, um, kind of separating the human being from the teachings. And, and then, you know, I think some people may be in a situation where there's a teacher who does have wisdom and is imparting important practices and knowledge, but then is too much in his ego or her ego and then manipulating students, you know, and saying that I'm actually breaking down your ego, when what they're actually doing is manipulating them or doing something unhealthy, right? We've seen that in so many cult documentaries, uh, you know, that kind of behavior with whether it was, you know, Osho and all that, and Wild Wild West, or what was that called? Wild Wild Country.

Yeah, thank you.

Um, but yeah, so many examples of that where it, it can be tricky, I guess, because so much of what amounts to unhealthy manipulation Totally. Yeah, thinking of like the NXIVM cult too, that was like so much of what Keith Raniere was doing in that. So anyways, I'm just curious if you have thoughts about the humanness of a teacher, you know, because I think we've all experienced teachers who seem amazing and perfect, and then just at some point there's a disappointment. And I think actually Mariana Kaplan, um, in her book Guru Question, Talks about this natural cycle of projection on the teacher, idealization of the teacher, and then disillusionment of the teacher. So I think it's like actually a natural part of the experience, maybe. So I don't know, would you have any thoughts?

Yeah, I mean, what pops into my mind immediately is the expectations I put onto my mother and having that as the framework for who I initially learned from and learned life through. And then seeing how over time she's— there's a moment, I think, as you grow up and you become an adult that you just realize that your parents are human beings.

Yes.

They're just adults who are trying to figure it out too. And then there inevitably at some point becomes a little bit more grace or spaciousness for them and the mistakes they make. And as they learn, they grow too. No one is exempt from being a human on this earth. If we're taking this incarnation as a human, we're going to have human tendencies, and that can happen at all levels, and teachers are no exception. And what the responsibility is, it's always on the student to be able to sit with, to discuss, to move through it, and if it consistently doesn't feel right, And then don't learn from that person, or figure out what you can learn, what your takeaways are, and leave the rest without feeling the need to glorify that person.

Right. I think it sounds like maybe what you're saying too is talking about these different phases of the relationship with the teacher. Like, there's also— it's also been called the honeymoon period, the fall from grace, and then relationship building. I like that framework because There's this idea that maybe you do get disappointed, but then eventually you come back around, just like you would with any, like, friendship or romantic relationship.

Yes.

There's a point where you move past the honeymoon, and then you're in this really— the real part of, like, actually building the relationship from a healthy standpoint. Because I think what you're touching on too is so much of what happens with a guru especially is people bring all their residual parental, unresolved parental issues. And they're projecting all this stuff, like they want the person to be the mother or the father, and to be— or to be their friend, and they have all these like expectations. And it's got to be, for that reason, so hard to be like a revered teacher or a popular teacher.

Right.

But, um, maybe like— and I'm curious to hear what you think— maybe like the process is trying to get through those early stages as fast as you can and like getting— becoming aware of it. And hopefully the teacher is giving you practices that are giving you the discernment to then like go through that process, right?

Yeah, definitely. I think that it's so important to be aware of those stages. I remember reading this book while living at the Academy, and it just opened me up so much because I was like, oh, everything, you know, everyone has a different relationship with this teacher, and I see the I see the whole spectrum of how people project or engage with the teacher and teachings, and there's a lot of disillusionment from my lens, but as soon as I saw, oh, I could understand this person is in their honeymoon period, and it can go for years.

There's a compassion around that.

Totally, totally. It's like, oh, they're moving in this way. And then I've seen the fall from grace, and what happens, and what gets stirred up within us, and then the people that break off at that point, which is completely reasonable, especially if you're talking about cults.

Right.

But yeah, the teacher should be able to then have enough of the principles that they're teaching, from my perspective, that they're living as well. then on us as students to see, okay, I can learn these elements of life from this teacher, and then these elements I might need to learn elsewhere.

Yeah, that's interesting. Well, it raises the question though, is there— I mean, is it always okay to just be like teacher hopping, or is there a benefit to like sort of committing at least for a while?

I mean, we've talked about this. I definitely think there's a benefit to committing, at least for a while, and to dig one deep well versus several shallow wells.

Yeah.

However, it's been beneficial to have consistently spent time digging that one deep well and then dip my toes in other small wells and see that the information is congruent and it's consistent, whether that's through jnana yoga and knowledge or through sitting in vipassana and hearing the lectures be tangential to what we're studying elsewhere.

Right.

Which is great. And then I think I've personally gone to a point where I look and I see, okay, this slice of the pie isn't going to be filled here, so I'm going to go look for a teacher that can do that. But I'm now realizing I am that teacher for myself. I have had— I have to then sit with these things and resolve them for me, and then Naturally, if there's a teacher that's supposed to teach me that, it'll come through, and whether that looks like a guru or that looks like a partner of some way, then you learn that.

But yeah, so maybe, okay, so maybe at this point one way to kind of sum up is to— I want to talk about maybe some criteria for selecting a teacher or knowing if a teacher is good for you or that kind of thing. This is based primarily on Mariana Copeland's framework from her book, The Guru Question, but I think I modified a couple of these things. Basically, you want to say— so this is where the lineage comes into play. Like we were talking about, do you need a teacher who has a lineage, or do you need to know who the teacher's teacher is, right? I think there's been so much sort of disagreement about this, but for me personally, I do think there's a huge benefit to having a lineage, because if the teacher is self-taught, then it's harder to independently verify what they're saying. I mean, you can do what you were saying a minute ago, which is You can, you can learn from other sources and read ancient scriptures and all that to kind of independently verify what the teacher is teaching. And in that way, you're kind of— I think everyone should act as sort of, sort of like a yoga scientist. Like, you're, you know, you're being empirical, you're trying things out, you're comparing 2 different experiments, you know, that kind of thing. So that's so essential. But having said all that, yeah, the teachers Lineage to me is so important because you have something to sort of— there's like a— it's backed by— the teacher is backed by something profound and ancient and time-tested, you know, time-tested. I mean, speaking of science and empiricism, you know, if there's a lineage, then these things that have been passed down have been tested over many generations and millennia. And so it can be helpful to have a teacher with a lineage, right? What do you think about that?

Yeah, my first thought is if you look at cults, a lot of them don't have some sort of lineage.

Right.

Yeah, they're operating from access to this spiritual knowledge, and they tend to be great orators and can deliver it, but they don't have that anchoring, that backing that helps them operate from a non-egocentric place. It gives that foundation from which you can also blossom, and there's this There's a certain respect that you have for the teachings if you recognize that it's not just from that one individual, that there's a collective that's been studying this over time, and that's what you're a part of, versus just associating yourself with a human or one person.

Yeah, I mean, I have had teachers where they've been hesitant, hesitant to talk too much about their teacher because I think there was a concern, a legitimate concern, that people would just be too, like, in their heads about this lineage question and not just, like, surrendering to the teaching. So there's a balance there, maybe, but it's important. And then, so going back to the framework, there's also this question: is the teacher's behavior more self-serving or egotistical, or is it more from a place of love and humble service to the students, right? That's obviously an important question.

Definitely, definitely.

I mean, is he, you know, as a teacher promoting spiritual growth, or Or are they sort of undermining people's maturation and, you know, just trying to get something for themselves? I think that hopefully that would be pretty obvious, but sometimes it's not, right?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, one way that our teacher makes it obvious is that he makes it clear that he doesn't need anyone.

Right, right, right.

Everyone is replaceable, including himself. And that's such a great lesson, and it then Makes me see how do I want— what is my relationship? What am I choosing to move forward with in this relationship?

There's an important discernment there to find out if the teacher is truly teaching out of an act of selfless service or there's something else going on, right?

Yeah, and I think the question for the teacher would be like, am I replaceable or do you need me here?

Right. Is there— are there a lot of politics and playing favorites? That can be one, maybe one sign. And then, and then that kind of brings up, like you were saying a while back, looking at the teacher's student body and the sangha, the community around the teacher, is also a good way to determine maybe if that teacher is your teacher. Yeah. Do you resonate with those people? Do they seem to be benefiting from the practices? That's another good one.

Yeah.

And then I think the last piece is just a kind of fundamental chemistry. Like, some teachers might be really wise, but they might not be for you.

Definitely.

Like, you have to resonate with that person personally, I think, at some level. You know, one of my teachers is, is really sort of like fierce, and for me that was like what I— I didn't even realize it at first, but then I later understood that that's what I needed and was what I was looking for, is somebody to kind of like really cut through any BS. So yeah, but that might not be for everybody. Somebody might need a very gentle, loving, compassionate teacher.

Absolutely. Yeah, I have found that I really resonate with teachings like Ram Dass's teachings and through Neem Karoli Baba because they are so heart-centered, right? And that lands so well with me, and I can take in that information in ways that other teachers don't address it, or there is a fundamental shared love, but it's expressed in unique ways. Yeah, and it's like what we've said, like, you know when you know, like, that cutting through or that warm embrace, it feels right. It feels like, I think I need more of this.

Right, right, right. You have to really trust your intuition. So much of the path is is trusting your intuition.

Definitely.

And just your— maybe your gut or your heart.

Yeah.

Or all the above.

And I think Sangha definitely is helpful for that too, because you're going through this together, and if you're in the right Sangha, then you are presented with these questions back at you.

Yeah, and hopefully any practice that's holistic and diverse enough will have Well, it will not be one-dimensional, so it'll have within it, you know, all these different things. So one aspect of the practice may be heart-centered, then another aspect is more fierce or cutting through or whatever. And so yeah, so then it's not just like it's all or nothing. I mean, you know, so I think like what we've studied, you know, Asatva and all that, is pretty diverse and has that all— potentially has all that contained within it, right? And it gives you the tools, I think, to be your own— to pretty quickly be your own teacher, and to a large extent.

Yeah, and you can also see how that's transpired in many individuals who have come through that place and how they've adapted the teachings that feel so true to them, and then they share that in the world.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think maybe to kind of wrap up this discussion, it seems like a teacher is especially necessary for people who maybe never had anybody in their life who Believed in them, you know, like maybe that, maybe that was my experience. I think to a large extent it probably was. Somebody who can see your full potential and then, like we were saying earlier, kind of push you a little bit to step into that. Yeah, it can be very healing that way.

Absolutely.

To conclude, maybe, allowing, allowing a teacher to do, kind of do this work on you, like allowing that actually, that kind of surrender, actually maybe paradoxically increases your freedom. So if you surrender to that process and let go of control a little bit, then you ultimately experience more personal freedom as a result, wouldn't you say?

Yeah, I would. And you experience freedom and joy and, and the ability to flow with life with greater ease when you have someone that's helping guide you along the way. Because it just, it quickens the process of growth. You're inevitably at some point going to experience that freedom, but now you can do it with more ease, more grace.

Yeah, yeah. I wanted to just come back to spiritual community, how important it is, because you've mentioned it a few times, the importance of sangha, and we've talked about it.

Yeah.

But You know, it's tricky too because I'm reminded of this quote from Mariana Kaplan once again, who's amazing. There are 2 mistakes you can make in relationship to the ashram or the spiritual community. One, not staying long enough. 2, staying too long. So I think we both had this experience. And so I guess, you know, in terms of like spiritual community and people who are in community, I think there can be, in my experience, it can be this sort of conformity, like people can be like conformists within spirituality and just following blindly other people or the teacher or whatever it is. And so it's like, I don't know, how do you approach that challenge? Yeah, it goes back to compassion, maybe what you were saying.

It is, it's ultimately understanding that everyone has their own Mm-hmm. And that some people are going to recognize it's time to depart living in that community, um, in their own time. And like a time— I don't want to say anything like derogatory, but find that they're, they're ready to go. And that means they're ready to go versus it being expected that other people should be ready to go at that same time.

Mm-hmm.

And within that, or maybe it's time to leave earlier than expected, and that's, that's right for them too, but it is important to leave.

Yeah, and a lot of teachers will send you away and say you need to go back into the real world.

Yeah, right, and speaking from being back away from that life for the past year, I've grown and learned so much, in my day-to-day life that was the life, or it was the environment that I lived in prior to being in, uh, on the spiritual path in a deep way. And it's this integrative quality that makes the teachings and practice so much more relevant and applicable when you're in your car or when you're in the grocery store, versus when you're only living in that community. It's much harder to have compassion for strangers because you are with those same people all of the time.

Right, it's like kind of a bubble.

It is a bubble. It's definitely a bubble, and it's a beautiful bubble for healing to take place in.

Right.

Totally. Immense healing can happen in a short amount of time being in a supportive environment like that.

Yeah.

But it can also be a lot of stagnation that can occur too when it's— when Life isn't— when you're not engaging in life in the world outside of that bubble.

Yeah, I think, I feel like sangha or spiritual community is such a double-edged sword, right? You really need it, and it's so important to support you in your process of going through evolution and liberation and all that, but it can also be tricky because you can get so easily pulled into, I don't know, unnecessary drama or, you know, humanness. Humanness or whatever. Yeah, and I think compassion is so important, It reminds me of a big mistake I made when I was first kind of approaching a spiritual community, was I expected, because people had been there for so long and practicing, I expected everyone to kind of be like these spiritual beings of light, you know, just floating around, like foot off the ground, you know. And they were like the opposite, you know. Everyone seemed like kind of a mess. And I was like, oh my God, this place is the worst. Like, what am I even doing here? And it was like such the wrong approach, you know, because there was no compassion and it was lack of understanding that Like you're saying, everyone's on their own path and they're at their own point on the journey and doing the best they can. And yeah, you just need to accept everyone for who they are. And if they were— we can talk about enlightenment in a minute— but, you know, if they were truly enlightened, whatever that means, then they probably wouldn't even be there, you know, first of all. But so yeah, you know, it's so important, I think, to just focus on your own growth, your own development, and then to Stop looking for somebody to serve like as a role model to you, maybe, but to just be your own sort of like guiding light in some cases.

Yeah, and I think it takes the detachment from those places to find that inner light, right? To, to witness yourself responding versus reacting in environments and situations that you 100% would have reacted poorly in the past. Families are a perfect place, an example for that, and What does Ram Dass say?

If you, if you think you're enlightened, spend a week with your family.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's being closer to family after being in community, I think, is such a natural— for me, it was a natural progression because I wanted to apply those lessons in real time and see where there's still plenty of work to be done.

Yeah, yeah, it's nice because you get to the point, I think, on the spiritual path where Then you start to welcome new challenges and new opportunities for being triggered or for being put into a process or whatever, because then you face that, you turn and face that, you know, like Pema Chödrön, she— her whole thing is like turning towards the pain or turning towards the growth, you know, intentionally.

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, that's beautiful. But so in terms of enlightenment though, I feel like this is a concept that we could talk about for an hour, but also is so misunderstood. I'm curious how you think about enlightenment or what that means for you.

I love what Anandaji says about living enlightenment, and that through experiences, uh, in journeys, in satsang, in meditation, in conversation, you can have these points of connection, like transcendent experiences where you are touching and being in an enlightened state. Where you are not stuck or attached to the regressive behaviors, tendencies, latent qualities of life, and you are just attuned to something so much greater, higher, and that's just flowing through you. And those things can happen where your, your deep in a space and, and you taste enlightenment and you touch it or you experience it, you're visualizing what it is to be enlightened, and then you come back and then you, you keep going through life with that, that remembrance, that, that memory of it.

Yeah.

And, and it's, it's so sweet, it's so nice. It's, it's— personally, I have found through several practices I've, I've experienced the state beyond death. I've gone to what it's like beyond what I know as life right now. And, and it's, it's beautiful. It's easy. It's, it's just, it's that. And like, that, that was an experience of enlightenment in that moment.

Yeah.

And here I am today, you know, it's like going through life. So I'm not, I'm not—

It's not a static state.

It's not static, and it's not a an end goal. It can, right, you can be tapped into more and more, and I think the frequency of it can be increased, and, uh, the access of it also is increased as you stay diligent in the practice.

Yeah, so you're talking about it kind of like another way of talking about the state of yoga or the state of unity. Yeah, it's a state of unity in a sense. Yeah, yeah. I think it's so tricky because I feel like so many people think that it's some kind of end state or some kind of goal to achieve, right? And that you have to get there as fast as you can. I think that's what oftentimes results in spiritual bypass and spiritual ego, because you are like, okay, I've got the concepts, now I'm going to take the Type A, Western American approach and just work hard and try to get there as fast as I can.

It only happens when you surrender.

Right, well, yeah, that's true. And there's always greater states of enlightenment, right?

Definitely.

Because the word itself just means like greater light, more light. So you're always achieving greater light, and it's not like you get to a point where you can just like rest. And I guess, I don't know where you'd be anyways. You'd be on the beach drinking Mai Tais. I don't know. What does enlightenment look like, right? Um, so yeah, I think that's important to remember. And—

And everyone can experience it.

Yeah.

Everyone has the ability to be enlightened in this life.

Right. But don't lose like Yeah, don't lose yourself in—

In trying to accomplish it.

Right, and like rejecting the present moment because, oh, I'm not enlightened.

Right.

And also it brings up this question I've had for a long time of, you know, you hear a lot, especially from Buddhists, about wanting to escape the cycle of birth and death, right? And which always makes me a little sad because it sounds like a person who's kind of depressed or like doesn't love their life, because I'm thinking, well, why would you want to escape this amazing life, right? And then, like, what does that mean? You're like annihilated, you know? Like, I don't know. I like the idea that you're like— I think the yoga practice hopefully is giving you the ability to celebrate life and to really enjoy life. And so I'm curious, you know, when you hear like that that's the goal, to escape the cycle of birth and death, what does that mean for you? It's a big question.

Yeah.

So I love the concept of bodhisattvas, that somebody who comes back, someone who's already reached—

who's reached enlightenment according to that perspective of it, and chooses to come back and be of service to other humans or souls or beings to get closer to enlightenment.

Yeah.

And, and I love the idea too that we all have that potential within us to become the bodhisattva. And the only way we can get there is through this, this life and conscious action. And when, when we think about birth, life cycle, and all that, it— some people can get caught in the semantics of it because all they have of a knowledge is of this life. And thinking that something's greater over there. But really, all we ever have is now.

Yeah.

And the soul is experiencing now, right now. So make the most of it right now.

Right.

And that includes being cognizant of what's happening around you right now too.

Absolutely.

And not, not turning a blind eye to suffering that is occurring, even if you're in bliss.

Right.

And how that bliss can naturally be of service through various channels to the suffering that is also simultaneously happening.

Yeah, because everything is— according to the Upanishads, everything is simultaneously an illusion and the most real at the same time. And so I think that's a good reminder because I've heard so many people who consider themselves spiritual, I've heard them say things like, well, you know, nothing's real, so, you know, whatever, you know. And it's like, it's a convenient way to kind of check out, but it denies the absolute suffering that's happening, you know, for people in the world. Yeah. You know, that's— the suffering is real because it hurts. Yeah. It's not like, oh, it's that your pain is an illusion. You can't tell somebody that.

Right. What is it? It's like, this is all an illusion. Okay. Like, hit me in the face. Like, hit me in the face and see if that's an illusion.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think You know, I think maybe this idea of escaping the cycle of birth and death— I don't know the answer, but I think maybe that idea might have partially come in through like the influence of the West on Buddhism or on Eastern mysticism. And the idea maybe like is related back to the Christian idea of heaven and hell, you know, or like you need to escape from hell into heaven, you know. And there's— there isn't, like you were saying a minute ago, there's no other place to go to You know, there's just here and now, no matter what level you're at or whatever. And so maybe escaping the cycle of birth and death is more escaping the idea that we ever die, you know, that kind of thing. So I don't know, who knows? These are just fun things to talk about.

Definitely. How many more lives you got?

Right, right. Oh yeah, like 3, I think. Well, earlier you mentioned Jyotish.

Yeah.

And I wanted to spend a little time on that before we wrap up. This is something that you and I have both studied. This is Vedic astrology. And so it's astrology from the Yog Vedantic tradition, right? And we both love it. And so maybe you could talk a little bit about, you know, how you view astrology and what you love about it and what your experiences experience has been as a Jyotishi.

Yeah, so talk about spiritual bypassing. I think it's been so popularized, and knowing the sun, moon, rising sign in Western astrology, and I was honestly turned off by that, that kind of sensationalism. And it just didn't feel grounded enough. Yes, it felt accurate to some extent, but I didn't feel a call to dive deeper into it. And so going into Vedic astrology and studying that was really my first deep sojourn with astrology in general, and having the foundation of these yogic Vedantic studies to build upon through the science of light, and really like the math and stars and celestial bodies to help understand humanity and consciousness. And the most beautiful thing that I've seen in my experience, my brief experience with it, has just been the ability to recognize that, oh, this, this isn't my fault in a way. This is just what I am likely to experience more of, more challenges of, or more ease in.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Over and over and over, because of the variables at the time that I took my first breath in this body. And within that, there's this great spaciousness that happens, because you can see life from a broader lens and see that this life is an opportunity to move beyond our karma and move into a more dharmic state of living. And living life with great intention and purpose and mastery, and to essentially be of greater service and ease to all. And this is universal. And so to be able to share this insight with other people and to help them see life from that broader context is just a blessing. But I have not intimately experienced Western astrology, so I can't say one thing or another about it. But with Vedic, And the tools and technologies that you can apply in real time to help ease the suffering for anybody is just magnificent.

Yeah, it's really beautiful in that way. So I think maybe it's important to highlight— you mentioned karma. And so one way to kind of view Vedic astrology, or any astrology really, is that it's a way of getting a snapshot of your karma. And so when we say that, I think it's important to remind people that I think there's a misconception that karma is sort of something that you're like, laden with and almost maybe is a little bit deterministic, but it's not, right? So karma is something that we know from our yoga practice and our yoga studies is something that you— it is an influence on your life, and it is sort of something that you have to grapple with. But because you have access to, especially if you have access to yoga, you know, there's these technologies, there's these practices, there's these things you can do to burn through your karma, to become aware of it.

Mm-hmm.

To stop generating more karma. And so a lot of what astrology is doing is helping you with that process, right?

Absolutely. Yeah. And it gives you practical tools that you can apply today. As soon as you start to realize what it is that you want to remedy in your life, there's a technology for it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Astrology is so life-affirming in that way. Like, it's very supportive of you Realizing your full potential.

Definitely.

It's almost like it's serving the role in a way of what we were saying earlier is the role of the guru or the teacher is seeing the potential in you. So the astrologer is helping you see the potential, and then giving you tools to realize that potential. What I love about Vedic astrology too, in addition to everything you were saying, is that Vedic astrology offers these— it connects back to the yoga tradition. So it's all very integrated and whole and whole. So It gives you these yoga practices you can do, and we're not just talking about asana, right? But we're talking about mantra or kriya or devotional practices, all that stuff. It gives you all these tools to then address the imbalances or the karmic challenges that are highlighted in the chart, right? So that's, that's one thing I really love about giving readings from a Vedic perspective is that you have these ways of working with the energies. Mm-hmm.

Definitely. Yeah, all energy at play.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think we've probably talked long enough about yoga and astrology and all the things.

It was fun though.

Yeah, I'm so glad we did this, you know.

Me too. Thanks for having me on.

Yeah, I want to do more of these discussions and not just have it be me talking all the time because—

Great.

That gets old. That gets old for me and everybody else. Yeah, so, um, So yeah, so how can people find you?

If you want to get in touch, then you can find me at my website, megankemp.com, M-E-G-H-A-N-K-E-M-P, or on Instagram @megan_kemp. And I love teaching one-on-ones. I love offering Vedic chart readings. I love working with groups. Basically, having conversations like this also feeds my soul. So if anything has piqued interest and you want to connect, I'm here.

Great. Yeah, and I will say I've experienced Megan's classes and her teachings, and she's a great teacher and astrologer.

Thank you.

So it's been so good to have you on the show.

Thanks, Chad. Thanks for having me.

You're also a talented designer. I don't know if you want to talk about that, but—

Oh, yes. Thank you.

Yeah, multi-talented.

That's what the yoga practice gives us.

Right, right, right. Yeah, access to infinite creativity.

Precisely.

Yeah, well, thank you. Any parting thoughts?

Om shanti shanti shanti. Hari om that's that.

Beautiful. All right, thank you.

Thank you.