EP 3:47 Self-Empowered Chemsex Recovery with Damon

Going on a little rabbit trail here, but that's something I try to bring into my content is like, pleasure is a core part. Yeah, of this. Like, yeah, public health is really good at identifying diseases and risk factors and protective factors, but it's not good at recognizing some of the other benefits outside of just health. And that's why I always try to bring into any sort of public health or social work that I do.

Chemsex, sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of The Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. All right, welcome back to The Aftermath Podcast. I am so glad you're here today, and I'm really excited to introduce a new friend of mine, Damon Hunter. I'm really loving what's happening, what I'm seeing on Instagram, which is more and more people talking about Tina, chemsex, you know, methadone, monkey dust. If you look, if you're looking overseas in Europe, you see a lot of pages talking about chemsex. In the US, you don't so much, especially what Damon talks about, which is harm reduction when it comes to chemsex, and so The two of us really align and I'm so excited, Damon, that you are giving your time today to, to the, the podcast and to share your story. And thank you for being here.

Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about it and like, yeah, getting on Instagram or TikTok and like talking about harm reduction. It's, it's my, it's my passion. It's my bread and butter. Like you can tell in the videos that like, this is something I love to do. harm reduction just like runs through me. And I think we need to be discussing that more.

Yes, agreed. Let's, let's talk about that first. I'm going to share your Instagram page real quick. So those of you, most of you watch the podcast. So here's a picture of, it's @thedamonhunterx is the Instagram handle. We'll put the handle in the show notes, obviously. But if you look, at his page. There's a lot of— if you're into feet, if you're into a lot of kinks and fetish, there's a lot there too. I happen to be— I have a huge foot fetish myself. They're so hot. I know. But if you look at this first reel, I'm going to play it. So you don't want black mouth.

Let's start by nixing that term from our vocabulary as it perpetuates stereotypes and puts judgment on people who use drugs. And let's talk about some ways that we can take care of our teeth if we're partying.

Okay. First of all, thank you for picking out the language and showing that, you know, meth mouth, meth head, you know, all these words that are thrown around. And you know what I see a lot is that men who are not using anymore, they're in recovery, tend to continue to throw that, like dirty tweakers and stuff.

Mm-hmm.

And to me, that's a reflection that they still carry the shame. From using. Yeah.

Don't you agree? Absolutely. Yeah. Um, and I even think back like during my time when I was using, like I would text people and be like, hey, you wanna tweak today? And like, I think when you're in the culture, it can be a little different how you use those terms. But when you come out of that culture, like you have to examine the language that you're using, right? Like saying meth mouth does perpetuate those stereotypes, right? We all get in our head when we hear that of like those old billboards that were in like the 2000s, right? Of like someone's teeth or the commercials that we would have. And so we're just perpetuating stereotypes. And on this one specifically, I talk about like dental care is a luxury in the US. Like, right. You don't know, like I myself was like very fortunate when it came to my teeth that I have good genetics. My parents were able to take me to the dentist growing up, even though we didn't have a lot of money. And then like when it came time, when I started using, like I read up on like, how do I take care of my teeth during this? Um, and so it's like, I had a combination of factors that protected me and I'm not going to like pass judgment on people who don't have those different determinants of health happening. Hmm.

That's right. Yeah. Thank you. And, you know, one thing that I think helped my mouth too during use was I had somebody say, you know, make sure you're hydrated too, that your gums stay hydrated. And so I had a gallon jug Because, you know, when you're using, you lose everything and you don't think to drink water unless it's right in front of you. So to me, a gallon jug, I couldn't miss it. I couldn't knock it over.

Yeah, it had a lid on it.

So I had it right there, you know, and I drank a lot of water and I really think that that helped my teeth. I get comments too on social media because I have a tooth out of order on the bottom of my mouth that I hope to get fixed someday. But people, I get called meth mouth because of that. And it's like, yeah, that's right. So tell me, Damon, so you are, you are a professor, um, it's doctor, former professor turned, turned content farmer.

Yes.

So you make a lot of content, which I have watched. Very good. Very good content. Thank you. Yeah.

Um, and actually, like, I was doxxed in March of 2025 by Libs of TikTok, and we're not gonna get into all that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

On here, but like my research portfolio was harm reduction implementation science. So basically, like, in rural areas specifically, how do we take a harm reduction intervention and implement it properly and then evaluate that implementation, make changes? How do we make sure that it's sustainable in like an unsteady funding climate for these programs?

Right.

And then the other half of my research was rural queer health, where I focused on things like transgender cervical cancer screening, because trans men oftentimes still need to go get cervical cancer screenings if they haven't had bottom surgery. And so like, how do we get people in these rural areas to physicians, but also how do we make sure that physicians know how to handle these types of situations? So I was like blending all that together with my research career and had an NIH-funded grant and a couple other smaller private grants that I was building a chemsex harm reduction intervention. And then when everything happened, that kind of got stopped in the tracks. But, you know, I'm figuring out ways to do it differently now.

Yeah. Yeah. And doing it well. Tell me something. Why do you think the US is so scared of harm reduction? Like, why, why are we getting the pushback we are when we talk about it?

I think there's like a myriad of factors, right? We can go back all the way to Um, like the funding issues, right, of like federal dollars not being able to be used for syringe programs, which has been lifted and then it's kind of tried to be put back. It's like a real steady thing, but we just have this weird relationship with drugs overall. So if we go back to like the early 1900s, Chinese immigrants were coming over, they got associated with opium and kind of this scare around there. We think of marijuana, um, and Mexican people specifically and how That was used and racism was used against. And then we can go way in depth on the like crack cocaine epidemic and the ways that like we just have these like scary things associated with drugs that are often racially motivated factors influencing it. And so with harm reduction, it's like, oh, we're not telling people to just say no, like that, that's scary. That's fearful when someone encounters something new, like, That's a scary thing for someone. And we just don't have the tools, resources, the language, the education around like what harm reduction actually is and how it's helping people.

Yeah. Yes, we don't. We don't. Yeah. There's definitely some perspective shifts that, that, that need to happen. And what I've just found that giving somebody respect and honoring them if they're going to use drugs, You know, it helps them come out of it when they're ready.

Yeah, it does. I don't know why my light just shut off. Yeah, I would agree. There we go. Sorry about that.

That's okay. Yeah, no, I mean, it's by calling them names like, again, tweaker and meth head and, you know, crackhead and, you know, all that kind of stuff, like, you're, you are pushing them Into more use. You're not coaxing them out if they're, when they're ready.

We're already dealing with people who are often on the fringes of society. Um, and I will say a lot of my work when it comes to substance use and harm reduction is with the people that the wider society would label like the hardcore drug addicts, right? Like I oftentimes work with people who are experiencing high levels of homelessness or economic insecurity, stuff like that.

Yeah.

And so they're already being marginalized and ostracized. Like, why are we pushing them further away? And harm reduction, just as you said, like, provides that linkage, right? That like, here's someone that can help you with whatever your problem or goal is that you have and work with you in a way— we're not even gonna worry about that anymore.

I can see it.

And work with you in a way that is actually aligned with what you want and what you need at that time, not what I think you need. And so harm reduction is just a very beautiful thing. And I do have to say the one good thing to come out of like the 3 waves of the, or the 4 waves of the opioid overdose epidemic that we've had over the past 2 decades is a little bit more acceptance of harm reduction. So seeing more Narcan pop up in places is really amazing. Seeing You know, syringe disposal in bathrooms is really great. Um, but it's just not far enough. Like, I'll tell people about drug checking with FTIR machines and they're like, oh, I don't know about that one. And I'm like, well, a test strip ain't gonna cover everything, especially with how many analogs we have coming out right now.

Yeah.

And I think even in the queer community, when we get into chemsex, it's like, So much is happening there when it comes to harm reduction that like is holding it back. Um, that just seems to be getting a little worse in some ways right now. Hmm.

Can you talk more about that?

Yeah, I think right now we're just seeing this like shift in our culture overall here in the US towards conservative conservatism, right? Uh, we're seeing that pop up, but we're also getting these like queer people with like very puritanical ideals about sex, about drugs, about like what Queer identity is. And while everyone can define that for themselves, like, we have a messy history because we were also like put in places that made us be messy. And like, we have to embrace those parts of us as well. Um, so, you know, from doing some of this content that like, man, you'll post something about Tina and people come out of the woodwork to tell you. And it's like, frankly, it's not my decision what somebody wants to put in their fucking body.

Like, right.

Just right. It's not exactly right. Like, I am here as a public health professional. If I'm working in my capacity as a licensed therapist, then that's the same view for me too. Like, I'm here to provide people with information, education, and tools that they need to make informed decisions about their life and about their health.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I get comments like, what you're doing is, you know, when I do talk about, you know, sometimes I'll give safety tips like have your Biotene spray or I don't know, Yeah. Right. And things like that. I had a whole pack. I had my Mederma, you know, cuz I was a, I was IV user. I would, I would rub my arms down with Mederma all the time. Of course I stole it from CVS, but I, but I had it.

Uh, before they locked down CVS and turned it into a maximum security prison. Right.

Yes. This was, this was years ago. Right. That's right.

Yeah.

You can't even buy body wash at CVS anymore.

That's right.

You're gonna, Um, but yeah, when I say something like that, you know, I get a lot of comments like, this is dangerous, you know, what you're doing, you're killing people, you know? And I'm like, no, actually you are.

You're killing people.

Yeah.

And I, and that's something that like I try to show my content. And since I've shifted away from like my crazy Tina stories about like having people save their piss for me, right? Like those were like really kind of controversial. Like, let's get some engagement up and just like talk about it. But what I was able to do is just parlay those into like I don't have shame about these things that I've done in my past. And like, you shouldn't either. Like, can I maybe have guilt over the way that I treated some people in my life? Yeah. Guilt is healthy, but shame does nothing for me.

That's right.

And it doesn't do anything for anybody else. So I can have guilt, but not shame. And people, I don't know, they just, some of 'em do not respond well to that. But I would say also like, I get more positive comments or DMs from people from those sorts of videos than I do negative ones. Um, people reaching out like, hey, thank you. Like, I didn't know someone else had gone through this. Or like, that was actually a really helpful video. Do you think you can make another one talking about X topic, whatever it is? And it's like, yes, like, ask me your questions. Like, let me be your professor on chemsex because like, that's what I love to do.

Mm-hmm.

Is like, I live and breathe harm reduction and kin sex. And so I don't know, it's a weird time for it all right now, especially with censorship too. It's like, okay, can we please talk public health? Like, please.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I have the same experience anytime I come out with something that I did, you know, or, you know, I had a podcast where I had a gentleman who has helped sex offenders You know, it's kind of controversial, but you know, I have, the thing is, there's a lot of guys out there who watched and enjoyed prepubescent porn on Zoom, on Zoom rooms or otherwise, you know, that are still trapped in that, you know, still trapped in that shame. When I come out and talk about these things openly, like you're saying, I get, it's so freeing for men all around the world because they haven't told a soul. They're still living in their own personal hell about it. Yeah.

Yeah. And I, I hate like 12 steps as a general thing in my life, but like, they have some good sayings, like your secrets keep you sick, right? Like, and that's something I think with chemsex, or even like you were talking about with like people who may be sex offenders or have had those thoughts and stuff, it's like, you need to tell somebody because at the very least, it's a pressure relief valve where it's not building up inside of you. And the second you can find a trusted person to talk to and be like, hey, I tried meth for the first time the other night. I'm not sure how I feel about it. And that person can just be open and loving towards you. That can change a trajectory for somebody, right? Like their use and their life may go a completely different direction by just having that open person.

Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. And that is, I get the question I get a lot is, you know, what is my first step if I want to stop? And I'll say, tell somebody. Tell somebody. The person that scares you the most, mom or brother or, you know, friend. It's like, but the stigma is so strong, especially in our own population. I say queer population now instead of community because I feel like there's two different connotations to that word.

Yeah, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. A queer community is like a safe group that you can tell this to, but just like a queer population is not necessarily that.

That's right.

But no, absolutely. First step is just telling people. And I even think in my own life and use, like, man, if I could have told like my best friend at the time, hey, I am trying this and I think I like it too much, like there could have been a lot of missteps avoided. But I'm also not going to spend time dwelling on that because like, what the fuck is that going to do now?

That's right. That's right. Well, you mentioned 12 steps. Do you, what do you think is going, what's going to happen with that in terms of chemsex recovery?

I honestly don't know. I try to stay as far away from like the 12-step world as possible, even in my research. Like I would have questions about it or I would, you know, survey questions about it, or I would have interview questions where I would ask people about their experiences. And I just don't know, like I have issues with 12-step on a whole, but I also know it's really great because there's not a lot of free support for people using drugs.

Right.

Um, and so like that free peer-based thing is really great. There's just some ideologies that move through it. And I think with chemsex, it's gonna be really dependent on location as well. Um, so like I, quit using in a rural area. And so it was like all the 12-step meetings were just like single ones, right? Like there wasn't a queer person's recovery meeting to go to. Um, we didn't have that type of access. So it's like, I can't really talk to a bunch of straight people about like, oh yeah, I only use Tina to like have really crazy intense sex.

Yeah.

Like that, it's not the same. Um, but I have also met people who did have like queer 12-step options for them. And for some of them, it was a really useful thing. And for others, it wasn't. I just know that when it comes to 12 steps, there can be a lot of fear that it breeds in someone, right? Oh, your, your addiction's doing pushups in the parking lot. And it's like, well, if I've always got to be that on guard for something like How can I live my life? Because I'm just afraid that the smallest thing I do is going to cause me, you know, to end up in a Motel 6 with a pipe in my hand.

Yeah.

And that may not actually be the case. So again, I don't know, but if it works for someone, great. Just don't push it on other people. And I think though, we will see like more tailored interventions in chemsex coming out, at least from like a therapeutic perspective. We've already seen some of that. as well start coming into the US. But again, the funding climate's really weird right now when it comes to that, because like a lot of those interventions are grant-funded and that's how they're developed. So if the money isn't there for people to develop these interventions, then like who's going to do it? Some private company that like may also be stealing your data or something, right?

Right, right.

We just don't know where that's at.

Hmm. That's right. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. This addiction doing pushups in the parking lot. I did a whole podcast on that because I, I did, I just feel like it's so traditional Christian correlated, you know, like the devil's always waiting, you know, the monkey on your back. It's like, let me put you in a place of fear so I can control you basically.

Exactly. And for so many queer people who already deal with religious trauma, going to a 12-step meeting is being just like thrust right back there because that's how I felt too. I was like, oh God, I feel like I'm back in the church again now. Um, and I just couldn't live my life that way and I couldn't base my abstinence off of something like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, on your page, and I do suggest listeners that you check out Damon Hunter X's page, um, you tell a lot of Tina stories on there. So do you, would you mind telling us a little bit about your experience?

Yeah. So I am very much like a country kid, lived in rural areas all my life. So also in like extremely religious household. So like when I came out my sophomore year of college, I didn't have a lot of support from my family. My frat brothers were actually super receptive to it. Not that I became super popular. It wasn't like a fratman scene. Um, but it didn't hurt my relationship with any of them. And I found a lot of support there when my family didn't provide that. But as things went along, like I was introduced to Tina one time and I said, no, I'm good. I don't think I need it. I'll just stick with my like alcohol, shrooms, coke, maybe some, maybe some molly, you know, I'll stick with this list of stuff, but not do that. And then One day, about 2 weeks later, I get online and I'm like, you know what? I think I wanna try it. So I get on Grindr and I find the guy and I'm like, hey, I'll try partying with you. And if there's one thing I know from experience is that like people, some people who are trapped in that cycle love nothing more than a new person to party with. Um, I'm not gonna, I don't wanna say it's predatory, but there is a predatory-like nature to some people when it comes to it. And I think that's, you know, what I found was someone like that. But I was also in a space where I was like, I had a lot of shit going on and I needed to escape. And that became an escape for me. And like my use like spiraled very quickly. I did not have good control mechanisms in place for this. I didn't have a social support network in place to discuss this with. And honestly, my— My queer network was next to none at that point. Um, it was basically just like people I fucked and that was it. I didn't really have a good queer family, um, or friend group. And so I just kind of quit, kept using, and eventually like I couldn't pay for my Tina anymore. So I ended up like embezzling from the bank that I worked with, um, which led me to catch a federal charge for embezzlement slash theft by a bank employee because of my use.

Wow.

But I was like, you know, a young white guy with no criminal history. So I got off with, um, just like time served for a day I spent with the marshals and Secret Service agents when they arrested me and 5 years of supervised release, which in the federal system, supervised release is, it's not parole, but think of it like a parole or probation after you've been incarcerated.

Okay.

So you have to do like regular check-ins. I had to wear a house arrest monitor, but like I wasn't actually done using, so I kept using, right? I literally had a house arrest monitor on, like hitting the Tina Bowl.

Yeah.

Buying drugs with a house arrest monitor on. I did, you know, I had somebody slam me for the first time while I was still on house arrest, which was just a whole other game for me right then.

Yeah. The 2 hairy guys, right? I heard that story.

Yeah. Very hairy. I'm a sucker for Um, and like once I slammed, I was like, oh shit, like I'm not gonna be able to get off of this. Like I'm gonna have to die or go to prison. Um, and because I kept using and failing drug tests and some other stuff that came along, like I eventually did have to go to prison for a while.

Hmm.

Um, and I ended up down in Forest City, Arkansas, which weird enough because, you know, like everything is connected somehow. There were guys down there in prison that I met. that were part of the St. Louis party and play scene, but I didn't know them because they were in prison before I had started like integrating with that group. So then it's like, oh, you know so-and-so, you know so-and-so, oh, you used to be their supplier, like weird stuff like that happening.

Yeah.

Um, but it was actually just like really difficult to leave it behind. And I do not believe that incarceration is a solution. For substance use at all. Like, we can't criminalize substance use. For me, it was a time where I said, oh fuck, like, I don't want to come here again. I need to just do what I need to do for my supervised release, get that finished. And then if I want to use Tina again after that, I can do it. So that was basically like my plan doing it. And it was hard to stay off of it. For a long time. But the crazy thing, and I don't think we discussed this before, and it's something I don't talk about on my page because it has to have a lot of nuance behind it. The thing that actually kept me from continuing teeny use was my psychiatrist or the person. Um, this was 2015. Um, and it was right before I went into prison because I had just kept using and then stopping and using and stopping. And she was there. We met like every 2 months and nothing was working right. We tried different antidepressants. We tried mood stabilizers. We tried antipsychotics, just anything to change my brain chemistry. So maybe I wouldn't use and it wasn't working. And then one day she goes, have you ever been diagnosed with ADHD in your life?

Ah.

And I go, no, I got straight A's in school. I was like in the top of my class. I was on scholarship for undergrad, like I, I don't have ADHD. I'm not, I'm not like that. And she goes, okay, well, I would like to talk to your mom. And I gave her consent. And so she ended up having a talk with my mom and then she came back and she's like, I think you've been like diagnosed. I think you've been dealing with ADHD your whole life. And like, you never were diagnosed because you followed the rules and you got good grades. And it's like, yeah, I was scared of going to hell if I didn't listen to my parents. Like, of course I was gonna follow the rules. And so we started on that with Wellbutrin at a pretty high dose to try to manage some of the ADHD symptoms. That wasn't working very well. And then eventually she's like, I'm going to prescribe you Vyvanse.

Okay.

And for people who don't know, like Vyvanse is what they call a prodrug. So that means that it's only metabolized like through the liver and it doesn't like get activated until then. As well. And the thing with Vyvanse is you can't snort it and you can't shoot it. If you do, you're just wasting the medication at that point.

Ah.

And there's actually like a limit to how much your body can process.

Okay.

So she prescribed me a 70 milligram Vyvanse in the morning, and then I took half of another 70 around 1:00 PM. And that was my dose for about 6 months. Was, I guess that'd be in total like 105 milligrams of Vyvanse. And this wasn't like a recommended treatment. This is not an indicated use of Vyvanse, but she did it. And then it was like, wow, I'm like getting my life together while I'm on these medications now. Um, and then when I got outta prison, I went back to the Vyvanse and I was like, okay, this is really going well. I've got my job. I'm applying to go back to school now. I'm doing it. And then I took myself off the Vyvanse cuz I was like, I can do it without it. Stupid. Uh, I didn't— while I didn't end up using meth again after that, I did start like having an issue with alcohol, which was a whole other thing because I like actually taught myself how to moderate my alcohol consumption during that period of time. And I'm a big proponent of moderation for people on certain substances.

Mm-hmm.

But then eventually I got back on the Vyvanse and I take a 40 milligram, which is a pretty low dose of it.

Okay.

I take 40 milligrams every morning. And that helps my ADHD. And so really like that Vyvanse was life-changing to me. And if you go into like PubMed or look at clinical trials for this, there's been some with Vyvanse on there. There's been other ones with like Provigil or Nuvigil, which are often used for like daytime drowsiness medications where people have experimented with like giving one of these stimulants for people who use. Stimulants.

Okay.

Because we don't, we don't have Suboxone or Subutex. Right, right, right. And there's like mixed success on those studies, but I know for me it worked, but also you can't just be like prescribing that stuff all the time. But that really was a life changer for me. And I just wanted to like bring that up and talk about it in a bit more detail about like, this was my case. That's not the case for everyone. But I was really fortunate to have a psychiatrist that recognized what was going on, um, and to be able to help me. And then even like during COVID when we had all the like medication shortages, I ran out of my Vyvanse for a couple months, but it was like I had built so many other supports and tools in my life that when I ran out of my Vyvanse, I didn't go looking for Tina.

Yeah.

Um, I just didn't. Was it difficult to Maintain my life? Yes. Was it a little bit more like craving focused at that time? Yeah, it was. But I was able to use those tools until the Vyvanse started being in stock again after that.

Interesting. Yeah. Do you know this, this idea of ADHD and its link, linkage to chemsex? I know there's some studies that are happening. But I'm hoping that more and more do come out because it's so, it's more and more people I talk to are finding out they have ADHD in their chemsex recovery. Um, and it really helps them turn a corner.

Yeah. And we know that people with ADHD are more likely to use substances, um, in an unhealthy or, uh, like dangerous way, but it's not An unfixable problem. It's just like one that we have to address. And that's something that like, even in my research, like I was trying to incorporate questions in there about ADHD, childhood diagnoses, childhood treatment of it, include any adult diagnoses of it or treatment as an adult to try to understand like where things are at among people who do participate in chemsex. So I think we'll see some more, at least I'm hoping. So as well. And it would be great to have like a Suboxone-type medication, but I also have issues with Suboxone and the way the programs are implemented and oftentimes just like further stigmatize people.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so I'm always like very cautious.

Yeah. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about, you mentioned that you had built support and tools So that when your Vyvanse ran out, you had a, it sounds like you had a safety net installation there, protection tools. What can you tell us about what that looked like for you?

Yeah, I'll tell you the number one thing, building a queer community. That was the biggest thing I had built in my life. Um, and when you get into the research, that's one of the big things that we noticed too, is like people in the chemsex culture are looking for a sense of belonging. Oftentimes they're looking for acceptance. They're looking for people who are going to be nonjudgmental towards And so it makes sense that to help someone stay abstinent, you would also want to build a community like that.

Yeah. Um, yeah.

And so building that was really difficult, right? Living in a rural area, it's not super accessible. But what I did is, um, the queer youth center out of here in town that we have that serves like all the lower 16 counties of Southern Illinois. They were looking for volunteers. And so I just signed up to be a volunteer because I was like, look, I can go on a Friday night once or twice a month and go hang out with these kids, make sure they don't do anything too dangerous or stupid, and also get to meet some other queer adults that are volunteering at the same time. And so that's what I did. And then made some of my like most amazing friends during that as well. So like, that's part of that community and that support that I built up. Um, and another one for me, and it may not work for everyone, but education was a really big support for me. So like once things had started stabilizing, I finally went back and finished my bachelor's and then I went right in and got my master's in social work and then went right into my PhD as well. So like keeping myself in education was a safety net. Um, there's drawbacks to that as well. Uh, besides the student loan debt, uh, mm-hmm. The other drawbacks are like, That education and research environment is not always conducive to nonjudgmentalness. Uh, even in like social work, I was actually blown away by how many people in my social work program or ones that I met when I was providing therapy are just like super stigmatizing towards people who use drugs. And I'm like, oh shit, like you do not like people who use drugs and you're working with them every day of your life. Um, but education was that support for me because it gave me other goals in my life as well.

Yeah.

And then when it came to tools, it was just like building what I call, like, I don't use the term sober that much, but what I would call like sober connections. So I did have a friend who, he was actually my sponsor in the 12 steps. And then we left the 12-step programs about the same time. Um, and this is a straight man, mind you. Uh, but like he, Was like really understanding about what I experienced. He really wanted to know more about party and play and what that scene was like. Um, and so he was someone that I could rely on too and be like, hey man, my Vyvanse ran out. Like, I'm actually feeling a little nervous about this. Can we meet for coffee and just like talk?

Mm-hmm.

And then he would like send little check-ins, not every day, but just like a couple times a week, send a text and be like, hey, how are you holding up with everything? And it's like, hey, actually I'm pretty good right now. Um, and then puzzles and gardening, anything to keep my hands busy. That was the last one was even like when I was in rehab the first time, I had crochet hooks with me in rehab because I was like, I need to keep my fucking hands busy. I need anything. And now I cross stitch and like, that's part of like anxiety coping too now.

Yeah.

Um, but those were really like the main things to support. Finding activities and hobbies and then like finding a goal in my life that I was working to or working towards that I could build some motivation intrinsically and extrinsically. I'm like, using Tina doesn't help me reach this goal right now. It just doesn't.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. So listeners, I hear a lot. So what, what happens? often is when you're in between your teen life and your new life is what I call it's a liminal space, right? And then you, you have all this space and you're kind of, I call it buffering or I call it glitching, right? Um, and so I hear from a lot of men, I'm just so bored, right? And, and I'll never be able to meet gay men, queer men without Grindr. I'll never be able to, there's no way other than Grindr. And it's so funny. I'm so glad you said volunteer for a queer organization. This is what I suggest. This is what I did. There, no matter where you are, you're, you're in a rural area. You know, if you're in a big city, there are so many nonprofits and queer-related nonprofits that you can volunteer for. And I promise you, you're going to meet queer people who aren't on Grindr. Like, Grindr is not a reflection of every gay person. out there, every gay man out there, I promise. Yeah, right.

And if it helps, if it encourages people to volunteer, I will say my husband was the volunteer coordinator at the youth center, but we hadn't met then. So like, I met my husband through volunteering. So someone is on here like, well, I just can't find anybody to date either. I found my husband now.

Love it. I love that. I love all of that. And you went education, but like you're saying, Some kind of goal to, like, when you're bored, I think you don't have a strong enough vision forward. Right. Yeah.

What life can be.

Right. What life can be, what you want it to be. Yeah.

And I think a lot of queer people, like, we're not used to thinking like, what can our life be like? We're shown these stories and we grew up with TV and media that was just like, oh, the gay person dies tragically or like has something tragic. You know, it's always this tragic ending for them. And it's like, no, we can actually have like, Different endings and different like ways, but it's like, you gotta think about it and you gotta trial and error things. I went through a baking phase. I went through a phase where I was fermenting my own sauerkraut and beet kvas. Like I did a lot of puzzles at one point, uh, you know, the crocheting, the cross stitching. There were just so many things, but it's like, what do I need that's going to sustain me? Keep me busy and also like contribute to the type of person I want to be.

That's right. That's right. Exactly right. I love that. That's great advice. Very good advice. Uh, I know a lot of, a lot of guys who are crocheting right now too.

It's a popular one. Even if you just sit there and make chains, that's all you need to do. Don't do knitting if you're not skilled at it. Like knitting is frustrating to me. It was not It would not be a good, like, boredom breaker.

Yeah.

Um, but I also see a lot of people get into fitness, right? And so, like, fitness is a huge one, which also be careful in the fitness industry because, like, you don't just want to, like, get off Tina and go straight to gear, right? Or peptides that everyone's doing now, or you don't want to develop some, like, body dysmorphia shit happening because your body is also going to change after Tina. But fitness is a great one to work towards as well. Um, also, like, dogs. I got dogs and I'm like, I was like, oh no, these are my kids. Like, I, even now, if I have a day where I'm like, mm, it'd be so nice to just like party and let go for a minute. I'm like, okay, well, I can't do that. I can do it, but I'm not going to do it because like my babies also need me. And like, I'm not going to be an attentive dog dad if I'm opening and closing Grindr and Sniffies every 20 seconds.

Right. That's right, exactly right. I love that. I love that too. So what was your experience like, if you don't mind telling us? I mean, you, you're very open with your sexuality based on your X page.

And yeah, a little too open sometimes.

And your Instagram. So was there, was there something, you know, what was your, what was your sexual reintegration process like?

Uh, what was it like? I think it's still ongoing, right? Like 11 years after quitting, it's still evolving. Uh, like when I was using, that's when I got really into pig play, right?

Okay. Right.

Let me just like, like, let me do it. Uh, when I got into leather, um, or some BDSM in there or bathhouses, like that was all tied to Tina for me. And my journey has been kind of like up and down with it. Uh, when it comes to specific kinks or headspaces I want to get in, I didn't go into a lot of headspaces for a long time. Like if I had sex, it was very, well, I would say vanilla, right? Like some making out, some touching, some sucking, and then some fucking. And that would be it, which is great, right? Like just being able to do that after Tina is hard enough. Um, but then I got to the point where I was like, no, I like need something else sexually because that nurtures me. Um, and by this point in time, I had met my husband. We were still dating. And I remember the first time I was like, can I sniff your pits? And like, I had someone safe that I could ask that to that wasn't going to do this behavior and it be associated with Tina. Right. And we had a talk after that too. I was like, you know, I want to get into pig play again. I want to wear leather again, but like, this is all tied to my teen years. So I'm actually really nervous about it. I'm nervous about like getting in that headspace. And I will say, at, in my like mid to late 20s, my language around my sexuality was not, um, where it is now. So these conversations were very rough back then. Uh, right. Like they were not, they were not well-spoken or detailed. Um, but it was again, just like having a safe person that I could be like, hey, I want to, I want to try this, um, and see how I do. And then afterwards he would just give a quick check-in. He's like, hey, where are you at right now? Like, is there anything you need from me? And that was it. Right. I'm a double Aquarius. I'm an Aquarius sun and rising. So like the last thing you want to do is be like checking on me and like, are you okay?

Right.

Get the fuck away from me. But just that simple check-in afterwards of like, where are you? What do you need from me?

I like that.

And I found that the more we did that, it was like, oh, I'm actually okay. Like, I'm great. Like, this was super enjoyable. I can't wait for us to do this again. Um, the first time I went to a bathhouse, that took a lot of planning too. Uh, cause I love public sex spaces. There's nothing I love more than like having sex where other people can see me.

Yeah. Yeah.

I like to share the love. I like to lay in the sling and just wait for the line to run through me. Right.

Right.

But now I'm thinking of plans for the weekend. Ah, but, uh, I was so scared to go to the bathhouse for the first time. Um, and the bathhouse we went to is my husband and I and some friends is actually Club St. Louis, which by the way, Club St. Louis is The first time I did Tina, that first night I was at that bathhouse. So that was also my first bathhouse experience was the same location. Wow.

Wow.

Wow. Yeah. And talk about like exposure therapy. That was some fucking exposure therapy. But I told my husband ahead of time, I was like, I really wanna do this. Yep. At least when we get there, if you're comfortable with it, just stay near me and it's just gonna be you and I. Right? Like, I don't wanna involve anybody else. You know, we'll see our friends there and they'll go about and do some of their own stuff, but like, I just want you and I there right now. And then if I feel okay, then we'll start like testing some waters other ways. And that helps so much because I had that plan before I went in there. I also had a plan with him of like, hey, if I start feeling really overwhelmed, Here's what I'm going to do. Like, I'm not just going to leave, right? That's not what I want to do. I don't just want to exit the situation, but like, I'm going to go to the locker room and just like take a shower and like kind of bring myself back down, use that like water temperature regulation, right. To just help me. And the crazy thing is I didn't end up having to do that. I just had to shower for other reasons, uh, you know, to get like some of the sweat and lube off of me.

Yeah.

But, um, that was a really eye-opening experience to the point where even like, I'll go to bathhouses now by myself. Like I went to the Toronto Steamworks by myself a couple of years ago, and that was my first time in there. And like, holy fuck, I can do this.

Mm.

I can do this. I can go lay in a sling. I can get railed for hours. I can do all these kinds of like nasty things that I love doing.

Mm-hmm.

Without Tina.

Mm-hmm.

And actually fully enjoy it and embody it.

Right.

Not in just in that moment, but afterwards.

Right, right. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that because so many men are stuck, you know, they're, they're, they, they celebrate their celibacy.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I do find that, not to come against the 12 steps, I do find that very common with CMA. Um, it, it, the people that are commenting or messaging me on social media will say 15 years clean, 15 years celibate. You know, I'll never go back because they're afraid of sex. Right?

Yeah. And that's reasonable too. I think for people to feel that, I remember like I have had, actually not, I remember like I have had multiple Grindr accounts and the point of like over the years of my abstinence, because like people would start talking to me that were people that I used or people I didn't use with, um, that would also hit me up because they were partying and it's like, nope, I'm gonna close this account and just like start a new one.

Yeah.

Right. And like, yeah, managing the apps was difficult, but also like trying to be celibate is not an option. For me, like it just wasn't an option. I like sex too much. I like my body too much. I like other people's bodies too much. And I can't deny myself of that. And it really was like, even just hookups in the early days were like really scary. And I, for a long time, would screen people ahead of time. Like, hey, are you partying? If they say yes, then I would say, nope. Uh, not gonna do it. But that's also changed over time where I can pick it up, right? I think you probably can too, where like you can pick it up without them even saying anything, without even having a capital T listed in their profile. Like you can kind of suss it out. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And if I miss that sometimes, which happens, I'll show up to someone's place and, you know, I'll see a pipe and I'll be like, hey, like, do you mind putting that away while I fuck you? Because, you know, they've got to pipe out their bottoming, most likely. Uh, just say that. But it's like, yeah, I'm still gonna fuck you, but like, you need to put that away and out of sight for me.

Yeah.

And then I also have conversations with them afterwards where it's like, hey, if we do this again, like, I'd really prefer it if you're not under the influence, but if you are, just making sure that like paraphernalia is not around. And I have actually had great responses from people for that sort of language, which is being really open. Or like, even on Grindr now, if people are like, hey, you party? And I'd be like, no, I don't. But like, make sure you stay safe and hydrated and enjoy the play instead of just blocking people. Um, again, though, I couldn't do that in the early years, but I'm at a point now where on the apps, like, yeah, I can tell you to be safe. Have fun, stay hydrated, and the conversation can just end there. And like, I can also like not be stigmatizing people on these apps who also feel like shit about themselves.

Right, right. I love that. Yeah. So for those of you who love the bathhouse or, you know, the gay campground, well, I don't know, anything like, like that where you may have found Tina before. You found it the, I mean, the very first time at that same bathhouse.

Yeah. First time at a bathhouse. First time using Tina.

Like, but you were able to go back because I, I call it a calculated risk, right? Mm-hmm. Is you are going back, but you're doing it with safety. So many safeguards. And you had conversations and you put things, you know, you put tools in place and you were really proactive about it. Um, yeah. And I think it, so it's possible. It's, it is possible.

And I wanna say too, that for anybody listening, like there's going to be times where like you think your safeguards are going to work and like they don't. Those safeguards fail sometimes and maybe the safeguard needs to be revisited. Maybe there are other factors at play that like just make it to where the safeguard can't work in this exact context or situation. And like, If that safeguard slips and you end up using, like, it's not a reset. It, it's just not like, I don't consider it that, right? Like where I am very open that I say like, I have 11 years of abstinence from Tina because of my like continued use. But like, has there been a slip up in there? Yeah, there was a slip up in there where like, sure, I was actually really suicidal and thought like, if I slam Tina after not doing it for a long time, I could give myself a stroke and die.

Yeah.

Stupid plan. Don't do it. Just, just get fentanyl if you're gonna do that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. But I did, but like, I don't consider that to mean like, oh, all these years have to be reset because like they were safeguards that I have that slipped in that moment. But that doesn't mean everything prior to that is forgotten.

That's right. That's right.

Um, so like if those safeguards slip, like talk to your person. And that's what I did with that, um, like suicide attempt, right? With Tina is like, I called my person immediately and I was like, hey, I just did something really stupid.

Mm-hmm.

Like, I just need you to provide support. I don't need anything else right now. Just provide support and be a listening ear. You can be mad about it. You have a right to be mad about it, but like, I can't have you be mad about it today.

Yes.

I love that.

And that's what he did.

He's like, I'm gonna give you space. He's like, you know, I'm mad at you about this already.

Yeah.

But we'll handle that when you're in a different place than you are right now. And that's what we fucking did. We just talked about it like adults and handled it.

I love that. I love that. I, I really hope that if you, if you're supporting someone that you listen to, that is, yes, you might be mad at 'em. You may wanna, you know, you may wanna let into them, right? Or maybe you even warned them first and they did it anyway. And, you know, you were, I told you so, once they come up, save all that shit. Yeah. Save all that for later. Support first.

Yeah. And also like, don't hold it in. 'Cause I know other guys who are like not, who are non-confrontational, right?

Yeah.

And like, they won't say that they're mad at somebody for doing it or upset or hurt. And it's like, you also can't hold that in because like the other person knows that's under the surface, right? If they're a support person, they probably know you well enough, but like, it's not going to help anyone. Like, I also had to learn to deal with some of the consequences if I did choose to use. And one of that In that scenario, like the consequence was someone that I really loved was mad and upset with me and disappointed. And like, that's a consequence that I need to be able to experience and learn from safely and not have it be like, oh, this person's mad at me. Well, I might as well go be the best damn tweaker they've ever seen, which was like my old mentality of like, oh, you think I'm a tweaker? Let me fucking show you what I can do. Right. Let me show you. You know, not that mentality. It's like, no, I need to hear this and I need to learn and grow from it and be able to like handle conflict without needing a substance for it.

Yeah, that's right. Handle conflict. Not being able, not having to escape with the substance. You mentioned escape, belonging, acceptance, being in a place of non-judgment. That's why the chemsex scene is growing. 'Cause we don't have that in the population we belong to. Yeah.

And I think too, like, as things are happening politically in the US, it's kind of becoming a more acceptable escape. And so that's where, like, again, for me with harm reduction is like, if you're going to choose this as your escape, great. You have bodily autonomy. It's not my choice. Just let me provide you with the information to use it a little safely, like use it safer. Let's make sure you know the right way to do it. I learned how to slam from another person, which is how a lot of harm reduction is spread, is peer-to-peer education. And it's like, okay, well, let's make sure that we have accurate information out there for people. Like, let's make sure that we're boiling our water if we don't have sterile water because we're sticking something in our veins. Like, you know, let's make sure that we are using sterile syringes or let's make sure that we booty bump properly because like you need that information if you're going to do this. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Um, or you, maybe you don't party, but you have people in your life that do. And like, that's going to give you a really good side to support them with is like, hey, that's cool. Like, do you mind if we talk about some of your use? Like, is there anything you need with supplies and stuff? Like, we can offer that. I have friends right now that still actively use meth, that still actively use coke. And like, they're good friends of mine. Because like, they're not going to be asking me for it. I'm not going to ask them for it. And I know that if I do, there'll be about 5 people that get a phone call.

Yeah.

Who will be like on my ass. Uh, right. Like we can just use these tools and our experiences to like help other people and make sure that like, if you're going to party, it's safe and you take care of yourself the best that you can.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. And I just want to underscore something when you were talking about your sexual reintegration process. So for you listening, just in case you missed it, is the safe environment and having somebody say, you know, where are you and what, and what can I do to support or what do you need from me? So it's important, I think, for us as we're coming out of chemsex recovery and we're with partner, a partner or partners who don't have experience with it. They want to help, but they don't know how. So I think it's important for us to train them. Like, this is what I'd like you to— this is the space that I need to heal. And these are the questions I'd like you to ask. Not like you said, you okay? What can I do? You know, like, oh, oh, oh, are you triggered?

You know, or whatever. Oh my gosh.

Yes. Right. Right.

Uh, yeah. Are you triggered? That's— I'm not responsible for anybody else's triggers and you're not responsible for my triggers. That's kind of the way I put it.

Uh, that's right.

And that really is, it's just conversations. And that goes in line with like consent too, right? Because let's get serious. When we were partying, we were not good at consent. And there's a lot of like gray area when it comes to consent. There's some research on that as well. Just like consensual boundaries get really mixed, but it's like having those types of conversations actually improved my ability to navigate consent.

Mm-hmm.

And any context as well, because now I'm navigating it in this very specific way. So it's easy to navigate with someone like, Where my boundaries are with impact play. Like, yes, you can slap me as hard as you want, but if you punch me in the face, don't take my teeth out. That's an easy conversation when you talk to someone about like, hey, this might trigger me into using drugs. It just— it builds your skills, it builds your confidence. There's a good couple of articles by Plattner, the author. He talks about like this theory of self-control when it comes to kink sex, and he's got 2 really good articles on it.

Mm-hmm.

And I first heard that, like, read that article title. And I was like, this is gonna be some like bullshit self-control, pull yourself up by your bootstraps type of stuff that like, I'm not going to subscribe to.

Yeah.

And then I read it and I was like, oh, this guy actually makes a lot of sense. Like, you can have control while you're using, you can have control after. I'm like, he actually discusses ways to do that. And I can have control to make sure that I can enjoy pleasure because that's intrinsically linked to chemsex is Pleasure. And that's where a lot of public health fails too. I'm going on a little rabbit trail here, but that's something I try to bring into my content is like, pleasure is a core part of this. Like, public health is really good at identifying diseases and risk factors and protective factors, but it's not good at recognizing some of the other benefits outside of just health. And that's why I always try to bring into any sort of public health or social work that I do is just like, We need pleasure as humans, whether that pleasure is, you know, going on a walk by the beach or that pleasure is getting railed by 10 guys in a dark room. Like, there's something there. And when it comes to chemsex, we can't, we can't separate the two.

Yeah.

We can't, we can't look at it from purely what, what's called the risk paradigm in public health. Like, we have to have risk and protective factors that look at pleasure. And what's happening there.

Yeah, right. Good. Great. I love that. I love it. Thank you. One more thing. One more thing. And I want to wrap up in this. You mentioned screening. So I just did, I just did some content about this and because I had an experience, so I've, I'm putting myself back into the sexual journey myself. So I, I was hit up by a throuple. And this was like, they, they were like the, the, the, uh, epitome of like gay, you know, like muscly built, perfect gay, like a throuple hit, hit me up. Mm-hmm. And so I was a little suspicious about that anyway, but, uh, but red flag, you know? Yeah. But because, because it was so have to have it. Like, you know, you want to, you want, you want to fuck, come to my, come to our room right now and we'll fuck. Right. So that was a little bit of a sign. And then it's, it's, look, look, if you've been in this, you know. So then the, the responses were very delayed. The way that the text was, like the weird spacing between the letters, you know, wrong spelling.

Mm-hmm.

It started to make sense. I ignored it. Because this is throuple, this muscular throuple in a hotel room. So I'm on my way. So then I get there. He's like, oh wait, don't come up. We spilled a bunch of water everywhere and we're trying to clean it up.

It was not a water spill.

This is a, yeah, this is a messy situation that I'm walking into. I just, you just know, you will know intuitively too. I mean, besides full disclosure, due diligence and ask, You also are going to know oftentimes.

Yeah. And like, have there been people that we've probably hooked up with that like got through all the screening?

Sure.

And even when we're there, we have no indication. Sure. But like that screening can just be a helpful tool to know if this is something you can pursue. And then if you're like, nope, like I shouldn't pursue this, then each individual needs to choose like how they handle that. Cuz then it can be like, well, I'm not gonna talk to them now, but in like 3 days I have a really bad day and I'm like, well, I'm gonna reach out to this person cuz I know they have Tina. And just like, yeah, developing systems that work for you and then also having multiple systems for when one of those doesn't work. Um, yeah, I think the screening can help a lot. Um, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's work. Well, what did I miss today, Damon? Anything that you wish we would've covered or? Went deeper into?

I think we, I think we actually covered everything like quite well, cuz we got to talk about like the sex, um, and like rebuilding sexual identity. I got to talk about like some of my research and like framing this through public health and social work. Uh, and then pleasure, that was the other big one. So it was like pleasure for me. Yeah, I think I got Everything I wanted.

I have a question for those of us who don't know, what is an FTIR machine?

So FTIR stands for, oh God, I'm gonna get the second word right. It's Fourier. I can't think of what the T stands for. Infrared. So essentially you typically see these in like chemistry labs. And so these are spectrometers that can look at a substance and then give you an output analysis. Of like what, what it is.

Oh, okay. Okay.

We are very lucky here where I live with one of the grants that I worked on where we were actually able to buy the harm reduction organization down here a mobile unit. It's about that big, plug it into a laptop, and in a rural area, they don't have like a brick-and-mortar store that people go to for their harm reduction supplies. They actually take the van and deliver it right to your doorstep, which is awesome for a lot of different reasons. And actually, I just finished a manuscript yesterday on their like delivery model. So we can put this on the van. And then there's 2 ways of testing the drugs in there. The first way is you basically like hand them the baggie or like a small baggie of it, and it goes into the machine and it just gives you a really basic analysis, right? It'll say meth is in here or like give you some other stuff that may be in there, other chemicals or adulterants. And that first type doesn't destroy the sample. Like you get your baggie back and you can go do what you want with it. It also has another way of doing an analysis, which is this really deep, detailed analysis of like what the levels of everything in there are.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it produces this really beautiful graph and it actually, trying to think of if I have something, the best way to do it, it does destroy the sample, but the sample size is like slightly larger than the tip of a pen or like the ball of a pen. So it's like a very small sample that it destroys, but by doing so, you get this huge analysis of the drug. Wow.

Wow.

Um, and I will say for any listeners too, that like what we know right now is that the stimulant supply is typically not adulterated with, um, like fentanyl or analogs, right? Yes, there can be contamination in there. So I don't wanna say don't use fentanyl test strips or any others that you're using, but that's not the most adulterated drug supply. It's like other opioids are what get adulterated more often. What we typically see more with like meth specifically, 'cause I'm gonna talk about that one rather than coke is a little different. But with meth, what we typically see is if there's contamination, Somebody didn't clean a scale properly, right? Like the dealer waited out on the scale.

Right.

And there was like maybe a little bit of fent residue on there or something.

Yeah.

And that's where most of the contamination is. However, like if you are partying, like you still wanna do a little test strip, it doesn't hurt really. Like I've even had people do it where you're like, they go ahead and backfill their syringe and get that ready. And then they just like put a couple drops Mm-hmm. On the test strip, which we can discuss some merits of whether or not that works. But for them, they're engaging in some sort of harm reduction activity.

Mm-hmm.

They're keeping Narcan around just in case. And so, and that's where FTIRs can really come in handy is like we could actually test the drugs and start figuring out where certain contaminants are at. There's a really great place out of North Carolina where you can actually send all of your results and they compile it for the entire country and create like alert systems as well. For, hey, like, this analog was found in this region. So if you bought from here, like, be careful.

Wow.

Yeah, that's FTIR. God, is it Fourier transmission?

FTIR, you said?

Yeah, I think it's Fourier transmission. I could have that wrong, but it's Fourier is the first one.

Okay.

And it's a spectrometer.

Okay. I did not, I had never heard of that before.

Yeah, they're fun. They're like $30,000, uh, just for the machine without all the cartridges that you need Through it, but a lot of cities will have a harm reduction organization that has an FTIR machine in there. I can't speak for all cities. Sorry, I'm gonna— I do wanna put this in there. I can't speak for all states because every state has different rules for it.

Mm-hmm.

But in Illinois where I'm at, right, we have Good Samaritan laws for overdoses, which are really great. So if someone overdoses, you call for 911 or you take them to the hospital, like you're not going to get in charge. You're not gonna get charged for the substance use, right? Which is important when we talk about G and people like G'ing out and needing medical care.

Yeah.

But in Illinois, what we also have is that, um, like with the harm reduction laws, is that getting your drugs tested is not illegal. So if someone is getting their drugs tested by the organization, they're not going to, in theory, get arrested for that. The organization is not going to get shut down for it either. Um, so it's important to just like know what the harm reduction and Good Samaritan laws are in your state because that's a great protection to have is like someone can bring their drugs somewhere, they get it tested and the cops aren't going to bust them for that.

Wow. Wow. Good information. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for that. I'm glad I asked.

Yeah, me too. I, I love science and harm reduction. So anytime I can talk about it.

I can tell. I can tell. Well, thank you so much for today. I think you are really It's really inspiring and I just love your, I love your outlook. I love your attitude, your energy. It's great, man. I'm glad we met.

Yeah, no, thank you. I really appreciate this and a chance to get to like talk to your listeners and like hopefully provide them with more information and like help grow your work too, because like this is also something that's needed for us.

Yeah.

Um, and it's not something that everybody can do. Um, but I think it probably helps your own recovery or abstinence. Yeah.

It does. Great work. It does. Yeah. I mean, I, I am open that when I first started it, it, it was to save myself. You know, I mean, I, I, my son was moving out and I had no cockblock anymore. And my first thought was, oh, I could party now.

Yeah.

And, you know, plus the fact that there was no services when I went through and, you know, I knew that there was a a place for this. I knew it needed to happen. Yes. But I also knew for my own good, helping others was going to help me.

So, yeah. Absolutely. Well, keep up the work.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed this today. If you want to join in the conversation, you can comment on Spotify, you can comment on YouTube, you can DM either one of us on Instagram, and we'll be happy to talk with you. And until then, we'll see you next week.