EP 3:53 LGBT Foundation: Voices of Chemsex
8 Oct 2026 · 78 min
In this episode of the LGBT Foundation’s "Voices of Chemsex" podcast, host Dallas Bragg sits with three London‑based volunteers—Luke, Hugh, and Patrick Katana—to share their lived experiences with chemsex, crystal meth, other substances, and the intersecting challenges of neurodiversity, mental health, and trauma. The conversation moves from personal reflections on the overwhelming nature of repetitive therapeutic approaches like CBT, especially for neurodivergent individuals, to exploring alternative modalities such as art and music therapy. Luke emphasizes how music can act as a natural “high,” offering both uplifting and calming emotional states that can replace drug‑induced euphoria. The panel discusses the spectrum of substances used (crystal meth, ketamine, diazepam), the importance of finding healthier replacements, and the role of community support in fostering recovery. The episode closes with gratitude expressed by all participants, an invitation for listeners to engage via comments or contact information, and a call to continue the dialogue around safe, supportive pathways for men in the LGBT community dealing with chemsex and related harms.
Chapters
that my voices are the ones that kind of sat me down and really made me understand parts of myself. You know, it is, it's something that I've had to deal with. It's freaked people out. It's freaked me out. It's been the reason why I was on substances a lot, because when I did substances, I can block out all the stuff that I hear all the time. And yeah, yeah, that's kind of how it is. It's like schizophrenics at times, you know, sometimes substances help them to—
Chemsex, sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men. Typically involving methamphetamine, mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Thank you for being here. I'm your host, Dallas, and we are Privileged today to have a very different podcast, and we're going to have a sort of a focus group, a panel discussion from 3 people in London who are volunteers for and associated with the LGBT Foundation. I met Rhys, who is the sexual health HIV coordinator for them, at the Chemsex conference in Belgium in March. And we have been kind of back and forth on what ideas we could have. And we thought it would be interesting to feature 3 people who have stories around chemsex. And if I want you to, if you're listening to know, I've put a little thing out on Instagram and on social media to say, please, if you're interested in sharing your story, please come on the podcast because the times when I bring on a real life story of somebody who's been in chemsex.
Mm-hmm.
and they've recovered from chemsex or they've managed their use or whatever, those episodes do really, really well and they have a lot of impact because I can talk to therapists and I can talk to specialists and I can speak to authors and all those kinds of things, but it really matters when you have direct experience with it and you know exactly what it's like to be in the chemsex scene and to be in this world of the gays, to be in that subculture. It's a different experience. So we're going to dive in today with 3 people, hear their stories, and we'll see where this discussion goes. So, all right, I'm going to start with you, Hugh, if you'd like to introduce yourself and tell us about your experiences or experience.
Yeah, no problem at all. So hi everyone, my name is Hugh. I'm originally from Derry City in Ireland. Been living in Manchester now for 5 years. Um, I started experimenting with— probably my main drug of choice would have been crystal meth. Um, that started taking more of an effect in my life, probably. I don't want to blame because we're all based in Manchester. Um, but it became a bit more frequent in Manchester because we wouldn't— you don't really get away with doing drugs as much in Ireland for Political reasons, but we'll not get into that one today.
Okay.
Um, it's a different story altogether, but you just can't get away with it as much there. Um, I was very, I was very excited about moving to Manchester, and I just wanted to get away from the Ireland life because just back at home it's a bit more settled. You don't really have the best gay experiences over there. Manchester and England's a wee bit more freer. Um, but I also did come over here being very naive because I didn't, I didn't know anyone when I moved to Manchester. I didn't have any friends, any family background. It was just very much a big fish and a small fish in a big pond.
Yeah.
Um, and I started dealing with crystal meth. I would have smoked it, um, slammed, and I'm just getting all the big buzzwords out now as I can, um, just for the— just for the listeners so they know. And my experience ended up taking a turmoil turn because it— my addiction got so bad that I was getting fired from jobs quite a bit, um, not just once or twice, but a lot.
Wow.
And I was in debt. Um, I ended up being homeless. I was sofa surfing with a few friends, some of them which were also involved in the chem scene, and they had relapses and I would have had a relapse and just dark turns that it would have taken. Um, and then I ended up finally getting into, as I call, the homeless channels where you'll be put up in like temporary accommodation that might be a hotel one week, the next week it'd be moved around.
Hmm.
And I got put in with other people who were having their own drug and alcohol or even just mental health struggles. Um, and I would have found, even though obviously you're going to put everyone kind of together, you're not going to put someone who's a crystal meth addict into a sober, sober household, um, which I think you really should because it might actually help the person.
Right.
But that's, um, I don't know what way it works with the council and how their, their backlogs and such work, but I do know just with my experience, it made it a bit more difficult because I actually did want to get better and improve myself. And I have done that now. It's taken 2 and a half years to really find who I am again and get back on my feet.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I'm not saying that I'm completely perfect. I have still had my slips now and again with it. But compared to what I was like for at least 2 years, I was every weekend, 5-day bender sometimes. Um, and yeah, no, it's just, it's actually, it's a bit of a blur sometimes. Some of it I do remember too well. You get flashbacks quite a lot.
Yeah.
Um, but a lot of the chemsex parties you would have went to, you didn't know anybody. Like they weren't, Like, kind of the way it works back from where I'm from, which gives you a good insight, you kind of know somebody from afar. Like, it might be someone's sister's aunt's cat, dog. We're very small in Ireland where I'm from. Like, it's a very small city.
Yeah.
Where over here, you've got people flying in, flying out, traveling all the time. Um, so you might be at a Chemsex party in a hotel with 4 different people who might not even be there tomorrow. They could be flying back off to California, Abu Dhabi, wherever it might be. Um, but a lot of the experiences I would have dealt with were dark, quite very dark. There's been sexual assault done on myself with drugs. Um, then I would have had very bad issues with, um, self-harming. Um, My— once there was a suicide attempt, um, because I was too far gone, um, with the drugs. Um, but that's, that's, that's what I'm just saying. That's only my experience based on— I do know other people who seem to be, in their words, not mine, but they seem to be okay or masking it quite well.
Yeah.
Um, so everyone's all got— everyone's got their own voice, their own experiences for when it comes to this topic, definitely. But mine was definitely dark. I would say that's the best way to say it.
It sounds very dark. It sounds very dark. I'm going to return back to— you hit on a lot of points that I want to cover. I want to come back to you, okay? And we'll move on to Patrick Katana. Is it Katana?
Katana.
Yeah. Katana.
Okay.
How are you?
Hi, how are you? I'm all right. Thank you very much. So I'm originally from Barbados. And I came to England when I was about 17 years old. I worked in the clubs like Heaven when it was owned by Richard Branson. It was amazing. And different culture. I'm 43 years old. I know I don't look it. There's a lot of witchcraft. That's my answer for everything. But the culture for it was a bit different. And so was the gay scene at the time. It was more party, it was more community. I remember going on the gay rights when it was still illegal. And then I developed HIV when I was 20 years old from a partner. And I was prone to substance misuse at that time too. Well, in Barbados, when I came back home, it was either deal with HIV or deal with the homophobia. So I dealt with HIV.
Wow.
And I remember developing a cocaine problem, really bad one. And I woke up after about 14 grams on the weekend to realize that, oh, it's the HIV I haven't dealt with, because every year I would like fall apart. And I realized then, for me, it was a lot of trauma. That's my first experiences with addiction. And I never went back to it, never had an issue. But sorry, crossing my legs. But originally, then I end up having a partner who abused me really badly, mentally, and I wasn't aware of mental abuse, so badly that I had a nervous breakdown. I had to learn how to walk, talk, and write again.
Wow.
I lost a lot of my memory. I was diagnosed in England as the youngest person in the UK with rare form of dementia. So frontal lobe atrophy. But I set up the world's first LGBT dementia network. That's my line of work. And then, yeah, so I had to get back my memories after he passed away. It's my memories surfaced because your brain develops ways to cope by knocking things out. But crystal meth was my way to knock out everything that he was doing to me at the time. You know, I would, I would inject. And if I injected, then that way, I won't see what he was doing because he was a narcissist. One of the most horrific narcissists. And I was completely isolated from my family, everything like that. And with no memory, you know, after he passed away, then everything came back forward. So I have a disassociation with memory and emotions. And I use crystal meth. When I was homeless, I was, you know, I would take it and become your favorite fantasy because I had to have a roof over my head. And when I went into recovery, it took me like 7 years of not Injecting, and I would inject even to my cornflakes. I would inject if I could. That's how bad it was. I kind of like learned that I, with my work, with the neurodivergent part that no one explained to you, because I was the youngest, they've never seen someone with neuro issues. I had to function. I mean, I was 30 years old. You know, I had to, I wanted to be like everybody else. But I wasn't. It took me half an hour to throw out pages 1 to 5. And I handled London 2012 Olympics. 10.1 million accounts, including 16 staff. My brain was like a BMW. But when you're trying to deal with that, substances made it easier for me to just— I'll take it, and boom, I was that person I was years ago. You know, like, I was able to sit still, function. But without it, I would start stuttering. I would start shaking. I had, like, paralysis. I was contorted. You know, it was— but when I took the substances, my shoulders went back. I sat still.
Mm-hmm.
That's how I kind of more or less advocated. And my emotion-wise, you know, you take substances to block out emotions because you can't deal with a lot of them. But also, I found that I blocked off too many emotions when I was on my substances. So, yeah, and now I decided to start doing the work within recovery because I was an HIV writer for many years. I was Huffington Post in America front page with my work.
Yeah.
And then I went into dementia. And I've set up all the organizations around it. So anything around dementia, even within the US, my name pops up. I'm one of the forefathers for it.
Oh, okay.
And then comes substances, because I realized that I have looked at every single aspect of my life and, you know, more or less used my own personal crap to help other people in some articulate way. And substances was the last thing that I have not looked at because it's extremely triggering. I just released an article and I talked about triggers. I'll send it over to you because I actually really want you to read it eventually. But it was about the triggers. And as I said to my mother, I don't know where my triggers are, because you're still going through it. No matter how much as you progress in this industry, you will reach a point where you face something that you don't understand. And that could trigger you. Because the more you— the more I feel that you try to find yourself and why you did stuff, that's unraveling parts of your psyche that you blocked away using the substances.
Yeah.
If that makes any sense.
Yeah.
Yeah. I listen, I'm a big Carl Jung fan. So he talks about facing your shadows and integration and things like that. And it's really true. When I took substances, I became super masculine. You know, actually became a top because of crystal meth. And I love that part of my masculinity. Yeah. Most people become bottom, I became super top. Yeah, I didn't identify with masculinity when I was younger, because my father forced it upon me. But when I took it, I was like, oh my God, I love this side of me. And there's a lot of my addiction also came through, but also the validation that came with it. Because people think of me, oh, you're really feminine, you can't be dominant. But when I took it, turned into Godzilla. It's a difference. And it's true. And it's people like, oh my God, you have a split personality. I do have a split personality. I'm a Gemini. I love that. But it's also facing the reality that there's an integrational part of my own personality that I wouldn't accept, the masculine. I'll hide my heels in the flat when I meet men, that type of validation, people will be upset. And I'm like, and I felt it was always mean. And over time, you just learn it's me. That's a you issue. If you have internalized homophobia, that's your business. It doesn't mean that I cannot be dominant in the bedroom, or this or that. But these are the things I've learned over my years of using substances. And the last relapse was June 4th, I stopped, my birthday was June 7th, and I was on it every single day for 2 months. By the time I came out of it, I kind of understood a little bit more for myself. And it was my recovery coach just went, do you want to go into recovery again? When I explained to him what I did when I was on it, he just went, nope, you're perfectly fine. He said to me, look, you have a lot of knowledge to give back to the community. And that is something I always felt I needed to address. I kept on hiding from substances, to talk about it, to write about it, to speak about it public with everything else in my life, HIV, dementia. But this part, I was too afraid. And the more that I've started doing it, the more— I've relapsed 3 times in this job because of the triggers.
Yeah.
But I find it becomes easier in time. And you learn, I've learned more about myself and my environment through the process.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I want to come back to some of those points too, for sure. Thank you for sharing that.
Okay.
Luke.
Hi. Um, hopefully you can hear me, uh, cause I've got these, um, uh, you can hear, I can hear you. Brilliant. And, uh, I run a CIC called NeuroQueers, which is for people who are queer and identify as neurodivergent. And we are hoping to do a lot with this and maybe have our own Lyra one day, I don't know. Uh, but one thing from my own lived experience is it's quite sporadic. Um, my experience with crystal meth and cocaine and other things which is legal, such as poppers, which I take literally until it's so— it's literally so unhealthy. And, um, even though it's completely legal, I will wake up next day and my face will be just covered in like scabs all over. And a lot of this is down to impulsivity, which is Yeah. Which is part of neurodiversity. And, um, yeah, in regards to crystal meth, there have only been like, like maybe 5, 5 or 6 times when I have taken it with, um, during sex. Um, but I count myself very fortunate how I did not manage to go down the path too far. And, um, maybe I treasure this from my experience in Sitges when in 2022 my first experience with crystal meth. I met a guy at a cruising bar in, um, well, it was in— I was, I was in Barcelona first, and, um, I went back to his apartment and I thought, why not take crystal meth for the first time? And I will be perfectly honest, it was literally the best sex I'd ever had. Not only how it made me feel, but how it made me look in the mirror whilst we were having sex.
And wow.
Yeah.
Um, I knew, okay, at the time I've done it, but I literally thought that I had taken a completely legitimate drug. I was like, this should be illegal. I, I was, I, I, I knew that I was possessed, but I, I didn't know that it was wrong. Well, yeah, I knew that it was wrong, and I also didn't know that it was wrong. I will refuse to accept it. And that day I was also scared that the guy that I was with was gonna kick me out. It's like, no, don't go, don't go, don't go, don't Don't leave me, don't leave me. So also the emotional aspect that came with it. So it was like taking, wow, that many poppers, emotional aspects. So it's, yeah, not only was I living a dream, but I was also scared of the next day I was going to be abandoned by somebody who I had met for what, 24 hours? And it felt like he was my husband, right? And so then, um, the next day, um, I was actually going on a went to Sitges and we were going to meet up and the plan was to take more crystal meth and smoke some more weed, take some more cocaine, um, take the poppers which I bought from a store which was illegal. And, um, he actually blocked me. And okay, I was like, oh fine, fuck you then. Um, pardon my language, but, um, anyway, um, that was— if I had to fit in, that was a Then, because that was my plan, was to go back and boom, take it. If he'd come over, I would've had crystal meth for the next, what, well, for the remaining days of my holiday in Sitges. And I spent the last, okay, so I spent the last days taking cocaine and stuff and that, but it was like the cocaine I've not developed an addiction from. The crystal meth, I knew that had I taken it for the remaining days of the holiday, I probably would still be taking it now. And I'm not gonna lie, since that holiday in Barcelona, um, Sitges, there have been times when I have done it as well. And, um, the aftereffects, okay, I did not, I did not suffer from, but the time me and my friend, when we took it, what had happened to him, he developed so extreme paranoia. Um, yeah. I thought, what? I don't know what he was going to do to me. I thought he's going to maybe lock me out the house. I thought he was going to frame me for doing something, or that— wow, I thought, okay, something bad is going to happen. So maybe secretly I was suffering from the aftermath of crystal meth, because maybe I was just slightly not as paranoid as he was. He thought that someone was out to kill us both. I thought that the police was going to come for us. So yeah, Matt's That's, um, maybe that how I've been. I have not taken it since. Um, yeah, well, you know, this, um, and like the cocaine— I've not had cocaine in God knows how long either. Well, I've had it once this year, but, um, you know, it's something that I can't— that's has not really affected me like crystal meth has. But, um, yeah, my recovery journey, it's been very up and down, like It's been mainly alcohol, really. I have— I still am a recovering alcoholic. I have cut down very tremendously, but it's been quite— gone down like that. I managed to give up the alcohol completely. However, as soon as I had my next sip of alcohol, it was back to square one. So I think from my own lived experience, baby steps is what you need to do, and sometimes you've got to find your own pace. And that's what— and also factor in for me to start NeuroQueers and how to support many people, because I'm a big believer that one size does not fit all. Um, size might matter, but, um, it's one size does not fit all. We all need different approaches, um, and how we can— how each person can recover. Um, neurodivergent people, we all need We all have very individual needs. We can't, you know, and me coming to the LGBT Foundation, I don't think I could have made that many big steps that I would have if I'd gone to like a regular, like CG, like a regular organisation for the general population. I don't think so. Yeah, that's my experience. And any questions, please feel free to ask.
Thank you. Thank you, Luke. Wow, what a diverse group here. You really— they really did pick lots of different— lots of very different experiences with chemsex. I wanted to circle back to you, Hugh, because what I'm picking up on out of all 3 of you is are issues and questions that I get the most of from my community. And so I'm just going to focus on that if that's okay, where I think the listeners might most benefit. You mentioned sexual assault, self-harm. So there's a lot of, so we did a podcast that's coming up on moral injury through Mel McCracken. And it's talking, we're talking about Not only the— well, we're talking part about what we see on Zoom, right, and what, what we're non-consensually shown when we're in these Zoom rooms. And no one, no one's mentioned Zoom here today, but, but the Zoom rooms where you use—
I've got a few stories for it if you need me to talk about Zoom rooms or the likes of Telegram. I'm the one for Telegram.
Yeah. And, but there's a lot of men out there who are kind of suffering in silence because they were assaulted while on G. They G'd out and maybe they were, you know, they were at— somebody had their way with them, um, or any other, any other kind of variation of there. There, there, there's a lot of men are ashamed to get help because they don't want to admit that they were on drugs when they were sexually assaulted, or they feel like they deserved it or it's their fault. So could you tell us a little bit about your healing process? With that.
So, oh, hold on. So this one, it's, um, this, this assault that I'm talking about when it came to the drugs, this actually was my 4th ever assault.
Okay.
Um, I've had, I've had 2 sexual rapes done to me when I was 16 and 17, and those were both, um, sober times.
Yay.
Um, the 2 other times were drug-induced, and they were a mixture of, um, G and meth and G. Um, but the one that— the, the main one that we can go on to now would have been 2 and a half years ago, possibly 3, because I'm saying everything's a bit muddled up. I'm normally good with my dates, but, um, It— I had been on it because that's the expression we use over here in like England and Ireland. Like, are you going on it this weekend?
Sniff sniff.
Um, I don't, I don't know what it is that they do in America. You probably have your own terminology for it, but we say on it. Um, and I, I'd been on it for a couple of days at 2 different parties. Um, this person who invited me, they're very narcissistic and They came over to mine, they like, they wanted to try and snoop around my bedroom to try and find like what stuff I had or what was maybe a bit valuable. Um, they'd taken me to their hotel, um, we'd taken drugs, and then he'd given me a can of Coke, which, because I needed a drink, which I thought, this is great. I still to this day can still taste the, the G. Um, that was definitely in that tin— can of Coke. Um, but, but at the time, I wouldn't have been proper enough at my senses to understand what was going on. Or there could have been maybe an element, let's be truthful, too, maybe I didn't care because I thought I'm with a hot guy, whatever.
Yeah.
Everything started to get blurry. Um, I remember being near the desk where the mirror was, just in the hotel room, and the next minute I've blacked out and I'm face first in the pillow of the bed and I've got my hands tied behind me. A little bit of kink, a little bit of roleplay. My way of getting through kind of trauma experiences, even explaining them, is through a little bit of humor. So if anyone's feeling triggered, sorry.
Yeah.
But I have to get it out. Um, and he had whispered into my ear. I'm pure drenched in sweat because you know how your body can get overflared with G or even just with the, the injection of meth that he was putting into me at the time. And he whispered into my ear kind of like seductively, but kind of aggressively too. Do you give consent for non-consensual even if you pass out? And I'm a bit like, like sweating, dripping sweat.
Yeah.
And then he had asked it again, and I just kind of was like, because I had done performing arts, so for me roleplay is hot and sexy.
Yeah.
Um, so at the time I was just like, yeah, and then I— and then basically from there everything was blacked out. Um, I was in a hotel which was about 2.2 miles away from my apartment in the city center. It was roughly 1 o'clock in the morning when this all had taken place, and I had blacked out. I remember seeing a wee bit of vision later on, and there was possibly a fight. Then I've blacked out again, and then I have woken up in my own apartment, in my own bed, at 5 PM the next afternoon.
Wow.
And I did not know what had happened to me.
Wow.
But I did a bit of an investigation down there.
Yeah.
Um, and there was a lot of bleeding.
Hmm.
And the, it was when I got speaking to one of my roommates at the time, I had said to them, what, what has happened?
Yeah.
Um, their response wasn't the best. Um, I think anybody said this as well, that's what you get. That's what you get. That's what you deserve.
Yeah.
But in also, in a way, not to fully give them blame, they also were living with me and I was dealing with addiction. It was very hard for them to see. So as much as they mightn't have been nice in the moment at that time of their comments, it's It's not for them or for me to say that it was wrong or bad of them to say that, because I think we could all pretty much share between us all, like our friends, our family members, like they're not all going to be sitting on the sidelines going, you're doing great, sweetie, keep doing more drugs. Like, do you know what I mean? Of course they're not.
Yeah.
So I've, I've, I've coped with it quite well. But a lot of people don't when it comes to those things that happen.
Yeah. So how, if, if I, if I'm listening to that story and I can relate to it and many, many, many people will, what, what do you suggest and how do you cope? Like what, what are some steps you've taken?
See, for me, I'm still on a bit of a healing journey as a person too. Um, I'm trying to think of great advice to give people to help heal them because some of, some of mine mightn't be the best. Um, I am also neurodivergent as well.
Okay.
I have autistic Asperger's. Um, so at the time when it happened, the sexual assaults, as I said, there's been more than one, there's been 4 in total. There could be a possible element to me where I'm maybe just numb to it. It's maybe just something that doesn't affect me as much because I'm not trying to be woe is me and, oh, I've had a horrible life, because everybody has. But if I was to take over the whole entire podcast, not that I will, because I'm sharing it with Patrick and Luke and yourself, but if I was to go through like my childhood, my teenage years, other things that I've experienced, it's—
Mm-hmm.
For me, it's, it's not my main— it doesn't affect me. It wouldn't be in my top 5. Um, it was when I was, yeah, 17, 18, 19, 20, because my second time having anal sex, like anal sex done on me, it was a rip. And I was on the bottom again then for a while.
Oh wow.
And then when I, when I turned then 17, that one was a bit more physically aggressive because it was hurting when he was putting it in. And I was only 17 at the time, and I was like, oh, it's hurting a wee bit. And he, he headbutted me.
Oh my goodness.
Um, to try, to try and make me a bit disorientated, and then he just Slid away in and out, in and out. And I just thought, well, I may as well just lie here, but I froze up. Um, but I've got a really great support system. Like, I'll not mention their names, but 2, one of my, 2 of my best friends back at home. Um, they have also experienced it. Um, and I think that does help in a way if you have had people who've experienced it before.
Sure.
It's— you're not taking all the blame to yourself, like, why me? Why did it only happen to me? When you have a group of friends around you, or even other gay men, lesbian men, non-binary men and women, um, or in general population, like, um, we're all there to support each other. Not everyone's all gonna have the same coping strategies. Um, to deal with that. Um, but for me, it— and I don't want viewers listening to this and thinking that this is the way. To me, I'm kind of just like, oh, it happened. Because it's just, it's, it's very— it's just so numb to me where there's, there's other elements of my life of things that have deeply rooted affected me. Um, okay. And yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I think, I mean, I think just what you've said was, is helpful. Like even just talking about it here out, you know, talking about it to other people and you have a community there that I've discussed. So I think that will help. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all of that. It's very personal, very vulnerable. Patrick, you, I wanted to point, I wanted to point out That you, you were talking about that. Well, there's 2 things, but one is when you're, when you're on this journey of figuring out why you're you, why you use, like why, how, how did you get here? So much more comes up. And this is what I, this is what I try to tell, tell listeners sometimes is that quitting the substance sometimes is the easy part. And because then you have to dig into all the stuff you've been numbing.
Yeah.
And you talked a lot about all the stuff you were numbing. And so it comes up with new triggers. So what would you say? How do you, how do you, what is your process with that? And you mentioned several relapses. How do you view relapse?
So I'm very spiritual and I've written this for many years. And, but I developed voices after my breakdown. Part of the frontal atrophy is that these individuals develop hearing voices. And it's nothing that I can be medicated with. It's just part of degeneration of the brain. And believe it or not, I just hear things before they happen. And some of the voices have kind of since I was a— at some point, I've kind of felt things around me, but they've literally, some of them hindered but also guided me through a lot of stuff. Believe it or not.
Okay.
I can never say it's been on my own. And I'm not here to convert anyone to anything. I'm not religious. It is just the fact that my voices are the ones that kind of sat me down and really made me understand parts of myself. You know, it is, it's something that I've had to deal with. It's freaked people out, it's freaked me out. It's been the reason why I was on substances a lot, because when I did substances, I can block out all the stuff that I hear all the time.
Wow.
And yeah, yeah, that's kind of how it is. It's like schizophrenics at times, you know, sometimes substances help them to to push it away.
Yeah.
I am lucky enough that I have had something guide me since, you know, I've heard something sometimes when I was a kid, but more or less more when I had the breakdown. But to answer your question on how to face it, it's guided me to facing it. It's weird. Maybe it's a version of myself, but I had to sit there at some point and hear going, you are blocking off your heart, your feelings, your friends out of fear and scare. And you're going to have to keep facing it. I believe in Carl Jung, and I believe in the universe a lot. There was a point in my last relapse that I just sat on the sofa and put on YouTube, and funny enough, his videos of Carl Jung came through. And every single night, there was a new video that I was watching that was just, like, released. I felt like it was just something for me to watch. And it discussed that there's parts of yourself that you keep hiding. My masculinity and my femininity was a big part. When my father passed away, I lived as a woman for 3 months.
Wow.
I wanted to transition. I never did. You know, and I had partners who did not like my femininity. So I cut that off. That's one— I don't regret a lot of things in my life, but I regret not keeping my feminine part to myself. And I had a good balance. After the breakdown, it was like, that's the world. The world was very into masculine men and da da da da.
Yeah.
And, you know, like, I had sex with someone, I kind of rearranged his organs, there were lungs to the left and, kidneys to the right. And, you know, and, you know, and he just looked at me, you do drag? I see heels. And I went, are you seriously questioning my masculinity? Do you want me to get like your, your, you know, your umbilical cord from the side or something? Like, just, you know, like, I, you know, your colon's over there. Like, and he was just freaking out. And believe it or not, that part is the reason why a lot of my substances came through. And I had to really sit down alone for a month on substances. And I Kollong explained that sometimes you really have to sit there alone and face stuff. And I would be honest with my mother and say to her, listen, I'm hearing stuff, and one of them is telling me I need to sit down and really face my traumas. Because I was never taken care of when it came to psychology. Like, my therapist was homophobic. So in 6 years, every time I talked about PTSD, even though I was with support workers, he would ignore it. So I had to do everything on my own. And it got to a point now, like, it explained that you'll keep relapsing in life until you face those parts of yourself that you don't want to face. dealing with. And one of my voices just went, you're gonna have to sit there and deal with it. So I sat there and I forced myself to think of everything that my ex put me through and really and truly embrace the fear, the scare of sitting in a room while he abused me, sitting in a room while he drugged me, sitting in a room while he got people to kind of like end my life. And I sat there and I had to face the emotions with it. And I would write down, I journal a lot of stuff. I'm a writer. But I journaled a lot, a lot, a lot. And I cried. And I faced those parts of myself that I just really didn't want to face because it's terrifying. I never cried. I mean, I know Hugh has been sexually assaulted, and so was I. I never cried. I got up and just went, it's my own fault because I should have known not to go into an apartment according to the decor. And that was my joke. I was like, I should have never walked into someone's apartment when it's painted red. I mean, that's— I had to laugh it off. I use humor for everything.
Yeah.
But that's the reality for me. I really had to. And I thought of a lot of things that I just ignored. And even when it came to my friends, you know, trust issues. And to be honest, I wrote down a list of everything I really had problems with. And I just faced them every single night and allowed whatever feelings or emotions to come through. And it helped, but it's not always over. I meet someone new, I have trust issues with people. And I don't realize, I think I'm okay. But then the minute I see something that happens, I'm like, You know, I can't push you in that same category as everyone else, but I have to understand that therapy has helped a lot. I have seeked therapy lots in my life. You know, I've gone into rehab, I go to my drug counselor, I will actively have 2 therapists at a time. I don't care. I will search and ask for help. And that's the thing that I couldn't have done by myself. Voices or not, doesn't make a difference. It's the fact that you actually, as a human being, have to face— by going to therapy. I really believe that therapy is the only way that a lot of people in our situation, all of us in this room, I believe, and I know so. We have all gone to therapy. And that's only sitting in a room with a stranger, a professional, in a safe zone, and just talking about stuff. I cannot explain, like, how important it is because it's only sitting in a room with— my counselor, I relapsed, and I didn't want to see her. And I said to her, I'm so sorry. I am ashamed that I'm relapsed. It was my father's anniversary of his passing. And she went, no. She said, it's okay. This is part of yourself. I don't talk about my spiritual part with a therapist. But she said, it's part of your life. This is how and who you are. And it's okay if you feel like that's important to discuss. And it made me feel like, you know what? My spiritual part is who I am. All my work is based because I feel something telling me to do something, and I will do it. It guides me like a guardian angel. But that's my life. It doesn't maybe resonate with other people. Nevertheless, it's part of who I am. So I'm not ashamed of that. I'm not ashamed to talk about my heels, have my nails done. It's a lot of shame. And I realized there was a lot of shame when it came to my abuse, or what I went through. My ex was a pedophile. I openly discussed that at times with people because, you know, I can't go after the people. But what I can do is educate you to make sure you don't put yourself in those situations. You know, I'm very hypersensitive to stuff. And that's the only way I can do it is because that's— working with others at the same time is cathartic for me. When I was an HIV writer, people would write in and ask me to assist them with something. And it would be painful. I would cry writing my articles. I would cry when I'm on the talking about dementia and how it made me feel scared and isolated, and isolation and loneliness. But also with chems, because chems was a huge part of all of that. You know, it's a massive part. But really and truly, through the therapy part, I found a lot of solace in myself to face those parts. Because you have good therapists, they'll ask you a hard question. And sometimes it's one question they'll ask you about yourself.
Yeah.
And if you're really able to sit there and be honest with your therapist and with yourself, And therapy can cause you to relapse. It really can. It really, it comes, it should come with a warning. But if you're strong enough, keep fighting through it, then yeah, I feel like that's how I managed to get where I am. And I'm still, my colleague Louise, she's my boss. And I said to her, you know, if something happens, she's like, are you okay? Are you all right? I'm fine. Because at the end of the day, in order for me to do my work, I have to face that there's going to be parts where it's gonna be difficult for me to to come to terms with, but I have support networks. And this is the thing, like, all of us in this room here, Hugh and Luke, we have our support networks. And this work that we're doing is our support network.
Yeah.
We might want to strangle each other sometimes, but I love the people I work with because we're all fucked up, but we're all trying to get unfucked. And there's something about being in a room with people who get you. You do your own thing, we support you. But it's that fact that we're all trying, and that's the difference.
I love it.
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Feeling is healing as we say. Sorry, I do talk a lot. That's okay. That's okay. Thank you. Yeah.
Yeah.
Luke, I, I've just, I've been, um, I think inundated with the most, I think the most question that I get is about neurodivergence and men saying a couple of things. One is kind of like what Patrick was saying is some men will say, When I take meth, that's the only time my brain is quiet. Like I have, you know, someone with BPD or ADHD or, you know, some schizophrenia or whatever. And they say, you know, when I take it, my brain shuts off and it's my break from life. But how is recovery from chemsex, how is it different for a neurodivergent person?
Well, um, it's what I said all along to a lot of people, is people associate mainly ADHD with, um, substance misuse. And a lot— a very small part— a very— sorry, large part is ADHD. I've— I have AuDHD, autism and ADHD. I'm questioning my dyspraxia and Tourette's as well because I have tics, like, you know, back— yeah, very, very, um, very, very bizarre tics and outbursts. But, um, one thing that is a lot What is majorly left unsaid is autism in substance misuse recovery. Because like ADHD, there's the impulsivity, there's the hyperactivity, inattentiveness to the environment. And so yeah, we take, we do things out of impulsivity. We, we take things because we want to fit in with that person that we want to have sex with. And so then we get down into a, then Um, begin our addiction journey, well, our addiction, but then we want to get out of that journey. And autism there is linked to routine and structure. So from getting out of the routine of regularly using drugs, like especially crystal meth, because it's got a high, you know, it's known for being highly, extremely addictive. Not only are you trying to get out of the addiction, You're getting out of the routine that you are of using the drug that you are addicted to. So it's like the double, the double, it's like double the non-incentive, like extra barriers to get you out of it. And yeah, this is where I say, okay, yeah, ADHD, but also autism as well. So I think there's a lot, there's a lot of things left to say about our ADHD and how we do our work. And the vulnerabilities and other neurodivergence such as dyspraxia, the clumsiness. Like a lot of people take it because crystal meth, it might make them more aware, but no, there's a lot of, it's all about vulnerabilities at the end of the day. And, um, you know, um, Yeah. When I, when I think of, um, when I have taken it, like my, like My alcoholism. I was the do-gooder kid. I barely drank as a teenager, and then when I did drink a bit, oh my God!
He's frozen.
Now it's time to start living, and I drank while mine became.
Oh, you're back on. Yes, yes.
Oh, did I disconnect?
Yeah, a little bit. You got frozen.
You froze.
Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. Tell me where, where, where to start again.
Um, the alcohol part, when you use your alcohol.
Okay. So one bottle of wine became 2 and then it became 2 and a half. And then I'd do phases like, oh my God, I need to cut down and down. So yeah, I think, um, the amount of additional barriers to recovery is mainly, that's where a lot of it's at in regards to neurodiversity. Not only gets it, so there's a lot easier to fall into addiction. getting out. I think that's, that's even more barriers.
Mm-hmm.
So when we talk about the routine of it, it's, that's kind of talking about the, the, um, the ritual of it too, right?
Yeah.
The, the ritual of using, is that kind of what you're referring to?
Um, or what is the— well, it's like an addiction. Sorry, ritual, what is it? Having me sign up for a very experience.
Yeah, oh no, it's like, so a lot of people in chemsex, it's this, the ritual of getting the pipe ready and getting, you know, getting your stuff ready and, or if you're the whole, the whole process of getting your needle ready and like, it's, it's almost like a ritual of sorts.
Yeah, a routine you're used to doing. Yeah, it's a routine of regularly doing it. I'm feeling like you That's your use. They're that used to doing it. You need it. And also the impulsivity as well.
Sorry.
Yeah. Yeah. But also that there's, um, also the impulsivity of not wanting to continue your recovery as well, like, like ADHD as well. So, um, yeah, I apologize if I've not answered the question well, Mitchell, but, um, yeah, I suppose it's a lot of the, um, I know sometimes when you, you submit, you get the pipe ready, you feel like there's some glamour And that's, but even though it's not, I don't know, that's how sometimes I felt when I did crystal meth. I felt glamorous.
Glamorous. Yeah.
Right.
Can I touch on something around—
yeah, go ahead.
The reason for people who are, because I have ADHD and autism as well. It's for myself, I realized, okay, so when I, because I have brain damage, basically. And over the years, for instance, I moved into my apartment, did everything myself. And after about 9 years, I had to remove again. And if it wasn't for the substances, I wouldn't have been able to do it. I realized while I took the substances how much of my brain has degenerated over a period of time. So each person with neurological problems, like for instance, frontal lobe atrophy, organization for us is extremely difficult. So different forms of dementia, dementia falls under 230 different types of brain functions. So, and dementia within our community is more prevalent.
Prevalent.
Prevent— my tongue's tied.
Prevalent?
More prevalent. Yeah, prevalent. According to HIV as well, because certain HIV medications can cause it. And neurological problems as a result of trauma. So trauma has been shown to cause neurological issues within our brains, and as well as with substances. But when I took the substances, this part of my brain was able to function a lot better. And I've noticed a lot of my friends, for instance, will go, 'Cause Ritalin is almost one molecule, I think, from being crystal meth.
Yeah.
And if you're on the right microdose, you're able to function. And it was just amazing. And at that time, it was like, I said to my mother, I'm sorry, but I can't handle doing the— sort out the bills, the floor, and everything I had to do all over again, as well as the PTSD about moving into my apartment because I was homeless as well. And all of that stuff that came through. But when I took it, bam, I can suddenly sit up straight, sit down and do all the paperwork. First time I did crystal meth, I sat down and read a book. Did my tax returns while my friend hoovered about 3 times naked because he was sweating. I sat down and read a book. It's a different aspect. But according to your brain functionality as well, and if you know your ADHD, it can either really set you off. But if you learn, I found to learn myself and center myself, I can be calm with it. And it calmed because I was able to sit down and function. Now I am able to do that a lot better on my own with a little more distraction everywhere.
Okay.
But just kind of also the aspect of neurological, if you have, yeah.
Yeah.
So you learned to adapt though. You learned to focus more without.
Yeah, something always screaming at me. Tell me sit down, relax.
Right.
Because I had, as I said, I had something always telling me what, how to do it. And not only that, I didn't want to have to rely on it in the future for everything. You know, it's like I was always in control. I did substances and stop on the Monday, never had an issue. But when I had my breakdown, and I had all that trauma and suppressed stuff. Yeah, I used it. It was no longer for fun. It was to cope. And there's a difference. Every time I, for instance, injected, I no longer felt that rush and excitement. It was trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma, loads of shit, loads of crap, have to deal with people. It wasn't that. And one of my— as I would hear, if it outweighs the fun, then it's no longer fun for you. You know, everyone needs an escapism. Everyone needs escapism.
Yeah.
My friend is, you know, might be diagnosed with cancer. That's triggering for me. I want to escape. But I can't, I just can't cope with it. You know, so I had to learn, what am I going to do now that I did different? What can I do now that I didn't do differently? Which is talk to my friends, explain to them my feelings and my emotions. Also, with my mentality, I have to just maybe take a nap. Sleeping really helps. Really, day naps are amazing for recovery because you center yourself. Yeah. Because you have to understand, I was on substances maybe for 2 years every single day. I've been doing substances since I was 30 to cope. But it got better when I started really just relaxing, sleeping, eating, the basics of it. And that causes that, that helps regulate yourself. You know, I've been reading an amazing book, The Dopamine Effect, I will send over to you, that really taught me how to manage the twitching. I'm still very twitchy. I move around a lot. I can't help it. I can't sit still too much.
Same.
But I had to at some point in time. I'm 43 and I live by myself. I don't have a partner. My mom's 80. She lives in another country. I live by myself. I don't have the luxury as dependent on someone to take care of me. I have to do this shit by myself. I've been single for 8 years. I would like to have a partner at some point. But I cannot expect them to have to cope with this other stuff. I have to take care of me in order to make me feel better that I can cope with my own, you know, my own reflection.
Yeah.
That is where I had to learn really strongly to manage a lot of the of dysfunctionality that I created for myself sometimes. Did that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Go ahead. Um, yeah. Uh, one thing that made me think, um, one of, uh, the people I'm working with on NeuroQuiz, Elaine Kovalites, she told me about, uh, an emotion that neurodivergent people get an extremely, extremely lot more than neurotypical. And it's the what things would feel like if we, if things went the other way. And I thought that makes sense a lot of my life about, okay, even though I don't struggle with regret, I have very, very little regrets, but sometimes I'm thinking maybe I took, maybe if I, um, didn't take the crystal there, maybe I would have regretted taking it.
Yeah.
Thinking, oh well. So that's another, you know what I mean? That maybe that, that also sums up a lot of that as well. Like, The amount of emotional barriers we get because, um, like social injustice, like, you know, you say that social injustice, the way we feel about that is linked to neurodiversity.
Mm-hmm.
And the way we feel like, um, we, we feel like we did live in the moment, or sometimes we, um, like people with autism need to make very, very long decisions, but people with ADHD, we make impulsive decisions, but we You don't want to have regrets at all. And that's how I feel. I don't want any regrets at all. So that's definitely been the reason why I did take crystal meth and cocaine initially. Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. One more thing for you, Luke, is that you mentioned, you, you, you, you said a comment that I've heard a lot, you know, crystal, the first time I did crystal was the best sex I ever had. Right?
Yeah.
Have you, has that affected your, your sex life, your sober sex life? I mean, have you had any difficulties there? What's your journey been like?
Well, I'm a fantasist, but I'm also, I consider myself a romance addict, not a sex addict, but it's just sex, but I'm a romance addict. And I think since I've, um, when I do have, yeah, I feel like I want to feel sexy. I want to know how to make it sexy every time I have it. Live for the moment. Could crystal meth have made me feel like that a lot? I don't know. Um, can you repeat the question? Sorry. Um, I think I was into the question too fast. I didn't think before I spoke.
Yeah, that was just, some people have difficulties with sober sex after they've experienced meth sex.
Yeah.
Has that been your experience at all?
Um, I say very small. Um, I would love to feel that way I did again when at that time I did have first time. I would absolutely love. But would I have? No, I don't. Doesn't mean that I would take crystal meth. It'd be— it's a luxury that I want to have. I can't say I'm never going to take it again. I don't— I don't make promises I can't do, right? Um, if I take it, I take it. If I take And okay, then I hope I do end up feeling that way if I was gonna take it. Um, and, uh, yeah, but yeah, I, I do think, you know, a lot, it would affect a lot of people. And, um, like the second time I took it, no, I did not feel anywhere near as sexy as I did the first time. But I have had lots of, of, um, Sober, well, I know we do have alcohol with sex, But, um, I've not really had much sex because of my surgery. But yeah, I've had, um, yeah, I've had a lot of sex where I felt that sexy. Yeah, since, um, maybe not quite as much. Um, but you know what, you just think about your fantasy, think about it's about your sex, make it creative, as long as there's consent each way. So I'm massively in consent. I've also experienced sexual assault where no means no. If you could, you could always ask as long as it's legal. Each person needs to ask to make their own fantasy, and then if the other person consents, then do it. Experiment. Um, yeah, try and think of ways to get high. Getting natural— getting high, it's a human right. So many other ways you can get high. You can get high from life, can get high from fantasizing, feeling sexy. And something I always try to do when having sex, I want to feel sexy. So Think of your— yeah, whether it's your kinks or whether you're vanilla, but just, yeah, I always ensure that I do not start the sex clothed. No, I always start naked. Yeah, think of your kinks and make sure you're having sex with someone that you want to have it with. And one thing I've not done since, God knows how long, I think it's 3 years, I've never gone to any events like Alert where Well, I suppose it's been a year and a half, but yeah, I've not been to any events where you focus on quantity, how to get the most, how to get the most, um, loads inside you or no, I don't really feel about quality. You cannot get your fantasy, kind of get your fantasies. You've got to go for quality. So you've got to, okay. Yeah. So I think, um, yeah, I hope I've answered the question. I don't, so really sorry. I hope I've answered the question.
You did.
It was everywhere. Yeah.
You have, you've answered. Okay. I'm gonna go around and just ask a final question in terms of, Hugh, did we, is there anything that we didn't, that you didn't get to talk about today that you didn't, that we didn't cover today that you think would be important that you want, that you wanna convey? Is there anything we missed?
I think that, no, the thing I would say mostly for people who are listening in It's— you're not alone. And like, I didn't— my family and friends back in Ireland didn't know what was going on with me. They just presumed, Q's struggling with England and it's a bit bigger. It's a bit— it's a bigger pond than where we're from because we're very community-based back in Ireland. Everybody knows each other. Same before. We're over here, it's different.
Yeah.
Um, once my family found out, because I I had an act— I had basically an accident, um, of like psychosis and all in the train station in Manchester, and I was taken away in the ambulance. Um, very, very bad psychosis because in my head I could hear the radio stations from Ireland talking about me, which—
Oh wow.
Yeah. Um, which was really, really scary because I actually thought Like, I know it sounds a bit up myself, but I thought, my God, I'm national news, but in a bad way. It was like—
Right.
And people from school who you wouldn't have been the closest to, you could hear them in your head talking about you on the radio station. And it was my mother who flew over to Ireland because she had gotten a phone call from the hospital to say, look, your son's in very bad condition here with drug psychosis. And she dropped to the floor because I've always been very close with her from very, very young. Um, I've never lied to her about anything because, being honest, and she wouldn't mind me saying this, her and my father would have had a lot of issues in the first 10 years of their marriage. So she would have leaned on me a lot too, which I know a lot of therapists that I've spoken to before have said to me, oh, Mm-hmm. She shouldn't have done that, and she shouldn't listen. I'm like, well, look, nobody's got a manual. Nobody's got us. Nobody's got a book to tell you how to, how to parent your child, or even just as a single man, how to live your life. Um, I always say to people, because I've, I've helped a lot of people in the last 2 years with their own recovery, um, but 2 of my best friends where they were completely gone, like completely dissociated with the world and what was going on. Um, one of them, which at some point they might come on and do your podcast with you, um, they had to have an amputation done on their leg.
Oh no.
Um, due to their drug use. Um, my main thing to tell people is just don't hold it into yourself. Speak to professionals, speak to your family and friends. Now, not everyone's going to have that family and friend bond because some people come from very dysfunctional or maybe no family at all. Maybe there's nobody left in their family, but it's— you're not alone. And everyone's going to have their own individual story, but there's also going to be a lot of stories that people relate to, which makes you feel quite good inside because you're like, oh.
Yeah.
Right, okay, I'm not going insane. Like, somebody else had voices in their head telling them that they were on the radio or something. Do you know what I mean? It was all that. I found that out even when I went to my first Narcotics Anonymous meeting. But that was scary for me to walk into that room.
Yeah.
And then at the end of everyone talking about their experiences, we all had to hold hands and we all chanted together, we're better. And for me, that was so surreal because I've seen it in a movie before called 28 Days with Sandra Bullock.
Right.
And I'd watched that 10 years prior to me even touching drugs, and I found it a very great movie. But I said, God, thank God that will never be me. And I should never have said that because it happens.
Yeah.
So it's just people, people just need to be True to themselves. I agree with Patrick a lot what he's saying when it comes to therapy. Um, but unfortunate in some ways for me too, I've been fired by my therapist. Um, I've also had to fire one therapist and currently at the minute, the one I'm dealing with seems to be doing quite well, but people have to remember. Even after you give up the drugs, it doesn't solve the full problem. Um, it's because everything will come flooding back to you and it'll be times 100. But that's okay because you will get through it. You just have to make sure that you've got the right support system around you. And it's great that this is being talked about more because it was very taboo a couple years ago.
Yeah.
And like, it was like, I'm— I kind of— I think that's kind of the way sometimes us gay men are. Like, we'd like to do things that Like, oh, we're naughty or something. I don't know.
We're all—
I always say everybody in the world, no one's perfect. Like, we've all— we're all a bit mad, aren't we? Maybe just me, I don't know.
Yeah.
But that's what I would take from it. Just get your support around you, look after yourself. Um, not everyone's opinions On you are going to be completely correct. Like, I've had to go to multiple different therapists. You have different friendship groups too. Um, I will be honest to people just so that they know there is a lot of things that you do have to deal with alone, but you're never going to be alone, if that makes sense, as long as you've got the right support around you. But it is a lot of internal healing that you have to do by yourself. Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's great. Thank you. Thank you very much, Hugh. How about you, Patrick?
Ooh, little old me. Hugh touched on a lot of stuff. You know, basically, it's almost like, through recovery, you have to face all those— for every good time you have or good weekend, you have to face like a week of shit. And it comes up and down. You know, first is your body that you have to take care of because you have to get back that functionality. It took me a month of, like, I didn't sleep properly, so it took me a month of sleeping properly, having to eat properly. The weight gain that comes with when you stop substances, that's extremely triggering for people. And then having to fight with that part because it's the body's— it's a lot. It really is. And I wrote a piece in my article saying the side of recovering from substances that people don't talk about. It's not pleasant.
Yeah.
And I can see why a lot of people think, well, why should I stop if I'm gonna have to face that? But then that's your decision. It really is. I always say the older you get, the harder it is to keep all those things in that closet that you put away. All that shit that you pack away. When you're younger, by all means, you can just ignore it. But as you get older, it's really hard. Like, I can't do the things like I used to do. You know, funny enough, when I'm on drugs, I can slip drop as quickly as possible. But sober, it's very difficult to lift my legs behind my head.
I can't.
But I'm just saying, it's— you have to— it's hard, and you really have to treat it as a job. And it's really become a job to function. And it only comes with what you want to do. What is it you really want to do? Like, I really want my life. I am tired. As much as I see a lot of amazing things and weird stuff on the internet, I'm tired, you know? And it's like, I have to get here. Like, as my therapist said to me, says, it's nice to see you sitting at a table where you should be. You know, like, it's been a long time coming because people can see the good part in you, but you have to see that for yourself. And you have to trust yourself. Like I said to someone today, I don't trust you. I don't trust a lot of people. I don't trust anyone really. But I trust myself with you. And I have to trust my decisions, my choices, my environments, my friends, my food. I have to trust What I make for myself. And I think that's where a lot of us— I see too many people going, oh, it's the drugs that made me do— no, no, no, bitch, you're responsible for your fucking self. Stop blaming everything on everything else. We live in a world where we deflect. We deflect everything onto everyone. And we don't like taking responsibility for a single thing. And I think the part of recovery is that you have to take responsibility that yes, you were paranoid. Yes, you stole. Yes, you did something horrible. And you have to face that. You really have to face— That part that you didn't want to face. And that's being honest with yourself because it's either honest that you did something wrong, it's the reason why you're here, or you are trying to block out things that took place. You have to face that. And at some point in time, either it kills you or it destroys you or you come to terms with it. And then this is the part, it's— I have to say to people, recovery is not easy depending on— all of us in this room have been traumatized. So you're talking to people who've been really fucked up. tried to cover over stuff. And the worst thing about it, we see people go into situations, not saying their situations are bad, but you can get out of it quicker. Like, we really, we pushed the candle to the point there was nothing left, you know, like extremes. And I was an MP, I'm an extremist, you know, if I'm gonna go, I'm like, yes, let's go. And 2 weeks down the road, I'm still awake, you know. And it's— Yeah. So I'm not, I can only think from the worst case scenario. I've always been through the worst case scenario. For those who go through a little bit of trauma or whatever trauma it is, seek help Straight away. Don't be afraid to ask for help. And if there's people around you that don't get it, that's okay. Search an organization who can help you. That is the best step. The minute you do something for yourself, it's like suddenly it gets easier and it gets easier and gets easier. And anyone who is spiritual or whatever, the minute you start taking care of yourself, the universe gives you an opportunity. It seems like things get better for you the second you do that for yourself.
Yeah.
And you start learning your boundaries. And your boundaries is not cutting off people here or there. The boundaries is you forgiving yourself. I've learned in my lines of like 20-something years of HIV work is that you have to forgive yourself for what has taken place and come to terms with what you've done. You know, a lot of us don't want to come to terms with that. And that's what causes a lot of it because we bottle that shit in and we put blame to everyone else. Yes, it's some people's fault, but it's also—
Yeah.
how I handled that shit. I am responsible also for some of the things I have done to people and made them feel. You know, I isolate myself and I do drugs. I sit down now and put on my heels and I spin around like Lady Gaga for like 2 days 'cause I have great music. And I close the curtains and that's my safe zone because I don't want to put myself onto other people. But nevertheless, I have come to terms with that. And you have to know, all of us have here gone, we'll never touch it again. We're not stupid. We are logical with that.
Right.
But every time we do it, there's a sense of guilt.
But that's okay.
Because that means you're progressing. That means you're self-aware. And the more that you feel, the better it is. You know, it really is. And sober sex, I have to touch on that quickly. Find someone that you're comfortable with and talk to them about what you've been through. And that's the only thing. People are so scared of having sex sober because it comes with jitteriness, it comes with erectile dysfunction, it comes with like almost doing it all over again. There's a lot of anxiety because the person you are when you're having sex on drugs, it's raw. But then sober, it takes time. And I found if you find someone good and you explain it to them and be honest, it makes it easier because a lot of it's in your head. And the minute you start doing that, you have to allow yourself— you either fall in love quickly, just allow the fuck-ups. But just know that you're doing that as boundaries. That's the best part for yourself. Because at the end of the day, sex is a huge part of reason why people relapse constantly because they feel like they have to associate the drugs with You know, that masculinity or the behavior, because they're too afraid to have sex sober with an individual and not explain that this is what's happened to them. You know, it's not easy to find someone, but I'm just saying, if you're able to, then you can, but you have to start verbalizing. People on substances don't verbalize a lot of stuff. And that's the reason why we bottle it up, which is why we are in a lot of therapy or traumatized. But the minute you start offloading that, the easier it becomes for you to function again.
That's my belief. Thank you very much. I couldn't have said anything better myself. It's great.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, Luke, what do you— is there anything we missed today that you think would be important to mention?
I think it's about how we speak to somebody who says, I've relapsed, what do I do? And I think that is what can change everything, to get some back into it.
Yeah.
Um, like you talk about 10 years ago when there's still, well, there still is some, but when there was a lot more, I don't know, the word shame was, was used. And anyway, it doesn't help. Like, um, I, one thing that does trigger me is when I talk about, um, How, like, people's reactions when they found out I did 3 types of drugs on one night when I had sex, or when I talk about how much, how much alcohol I used to drink, and they go, oh my God, and I just want to slap them. It's like, whoa, that's— you don't say that. So I think one thing that does help a lot of people is what is the right thing to say, and maybe you might need to get to know that person. But I think one thing, like, well, like, maybe it's peer support, which I'm a big believer in, which is what I want to do at the end of the day with Newer Queers. Or, um, well, I think it's both peer support and clinical support. Things that maybe lists of do-nots, of don'ts. I'm a big believer in things not to do. Uh, well, and I think if someone said, look, I relapsed, or this is This is me at my worst. It's actually, you're telling, you're telling something about you, which is a lot to somebody. And a lot of these things you're telling somebody is just, might be something that you don't actually want to tell, but you need to tell somebody at some point.
Yeah.
So I think, yeah, that, that plays a massive, uh, part of recovery. Like when, okay, you relapse, okay, what's the right thing to say? And it might be, uh, it might be also, it might help for the person who's wanting that help if when they first meet this, um, this therapist or this peer support worker, things that let them know what their triggers are, how to tell them what to do and what not to do. That is a must. That will help massively because Um, you know, I mean, like, we're all human, we all make the same mistakes, but we can also try. We could always— we always need to try. Um, and another thing is remembering that one size does not fit— one size does not fit all, right?
Yeah.
You've got to make— oh yeah, one thing that really has not helped me in the past is anything repetitive, like CBT, these questions. How many times you felt like this? How many times you felt like that? How many times you felt like In the past few days, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, overwhelm, overwhelm. I can't think.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. It's a lot of the, um, therapy, like CBT, is too much repetitive tasks. And that's, again, it comes back down to neurodiversity. I struggle with things. Yeah. There's something, not only do I not want to think of, oh my God, how many times have I did that? Did I take this at the weekend? How many, how many times did I drink drink 2 bottles of wine per night. It's— yeah, that's one thing that I do think, you know, maybe you can explore more and more ways for therapy, how to get us back onto the journey. Like art therapy, um, that's massive. That is massive in regards to therapy. And one thing that I believe is a massive— that has helped me is music. I'm a big believer in music. That's an upper or a downer that would not make me do these drugs. Because at the end of the day, drugs are like uppers. You've got to be crystal meth, got. Um, I'm like, okay, that gets you up. You've got down with like ketamine or diazepam, which people do illegally, um, where people buy it, you know, steal it off, um, their friend who gets it for prescription. But yeah, it's about hormones, how you want the emotions, changing emotions. So I think music, if I want to put like, yeah, boom, I listen to some Kesha, but I'm going crazy, that gets me up. Or if I want to go down, on Kesha praying or, um, Toni Braxton. Yeah, so you've got to find your own ways of getting high. And we need to, we need to talk to more people about, okay, get— getting high doesn't have to be something like, um, cocaine, crystal meth, ketamine. No, it's think of ways of getting euphoria. How can we— how else can we get it? And what can we replace? Yeah, it's all about replacements.
Um, I like that. Yeah. Replace, replacing the high naturally or whatever you're getting from it, whatever you're getting from the meth experience, replacing that.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think that's great. I think that's great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Do we all get a thank you each? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
All right.
Yeah.
Um, okay. Well, thank you all for For your work that you're doing. Thank you for the courage to come on a podcast and share your very vulnerable stories today. I know that it's going to— you're going to really help a ton of men all around the world by doing this. And so I just want to appreciate you for your time. I know it's late there too, but thank you for coming on. It was such a pleasure to meet all 3 of you. And I've really I've really enjoyed listening today.
Thank you very much for having us.
Thank you, Dallas.
It's a privilege to be on your podcast. For about a year, one of my friends was like, oh my God, I follow him. I can't believe you're on his podcast. And I'm like, I only just found out 5 minutes ago it was you. I didn't research it. I just do it, you know, sometimes like, yeah, yeah, no, thank you for having us. It really is. We really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Foundation.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. All right. All right, guys. I hope you enjoyed this today. Um, please join in the discussion. You can comment on Spotify, you can comment on YouTube. Um, we'll put, if, if anybody here wants their contact information included in the show notes, we'll put that in there and maybe you can engage with conversation on them, with them to dig in deeper on their stories if you'd like. Um, other than that, thank you for being here and we'll see you next week. Bye.
