EP 3:51 The Family Dynamics of Chemsex Users

What would you say to a parent who, what do you, what would you say? What do you say to parents anyway? I mean, you know, how do, how do you separate? How do you not blame yourself? How do you not personalize it, internalize it, um, and keep from, you know, that, that fear and that anger? Like what, what is it? What is your advice? Most your, your best advice for parents of addicts? Chemsex, sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, Mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dallas. Thank you for being here, and you are in for a treat. Today, as I introduce a new friend, and I just there's just some people that you meet and you're just like instantly bam! You're just you know it's like you've known each other for years and years and years. And this person, Charlie Bray, is one of those people. And it's not a mistake. I'm sure that Charlie is also friends with Mel McCracken, who is also my my soul sibling. So I am excited for Charlie to be here, but I'm also very, very excited to cover a topic that you all have asked me about for years now that I have never been able to really find anyone to meet the needs for that topic. And that is family members of chemsex users, or we can say addicts, but chemsex users, family members. What do we do? How do we handle? What is the best thing for us? How do we help? When are we hurting? I get asked these questions constantly. And one of the first reasons, one of the main reasons I started this podcast was because my own mother, when I told her, you know, the first time I told her I was using was when I got arrested. And I said, I got arrested for drug possession. And she was like, you're using marijuana? You know, that was the worst thing she could think of was that I was smoking marijuana. Oh, little did she know I was using meth. And so she had no clue on how, what chemsex was or what it meant, how to help. She made a lot of mistakes. She finally at the end did the right thing and helped, you know, helped my trajectory to recovery. But I would, this is one of the reasons I wanted to make this podcast is for siblings and friends, mothers, fathers, partners to have a resource to go. to, to educate themselves about chemsex, but also, how do I help, right? What do I do? And so this podcast is going to be extremely helpful for so many people around the world. And I'm so glad and honored to have you here, Charlie. Welcome.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Um, I'm so happy to be here. I'm so excited. I love your story. I, I'm a person, um, that also suffers with addiction. I've been clean and sober for 18 years, which is kind of nuts, um, to say out loud. Yeah. It's so wild. I actually celebrated 18 years the day that I dropped my daughter off to her first day of preschool.

Wow. What a day.

What a, like, what a crazy I don't know, life, it's so beautiful and amazing, but I never thought ever I'd be here. Right. And I like never knew life could be this good either. I'll get tearful if I talk too much about it.

But go ahead.

But I also, so I'm a person who also has family members that are in active use and in recovery. I have a family that's full of eating disorder, mental health issues, all this stuff, right? And so that's my personal experience that I lend to whatever I'm talking about all the time. And then I also went back to school, became a counselor, worked in treatment for many years, and now I'm primarily working as a family and loved ones recovery coach. So I work with a lot of people that suffer with codependency, that love people that have issues, that have issues themselves and have difficult dysfunctional family dynamics, right? So that's what I'm primarily working in currently. And because I want to spend a lot of my time also with my daughter while I can before she goes into school full-time.

Sure.

So I'm not working in a treatment center currently, but I probably will return at some point because I love it. And when I worked in treatment, I facilitated a lot of family intensives where families would come to the treatment center and where the person was receiving treatment and help in recovery. Worked with Mel for many years. They're amazing.

Mm-hmm.

And we did like, you know, 3-day-long or a week-long workshops talking about dynamics in the family and And difficulties that people experience in family patterns and the way that the family operates that kind of lend to everyone in the family suffering, not just the person in active use or in starting recovery, right? Like, because these dynamics occur way before the person picks up a drink or a drug.

Yeah.

Right. And so That's kind of me in a nutshell. But I was so, I was relating to you. I'm like talking about being soul sisters, brothers, whatever, soul family. Um, my, I got arrested when I was 18, maybe I was 7. No, I was 18.

Okay.

And for public intoxica— intoxication, right? Like, and I kept it from my family. I thought I was being all cool, right? And then they Sent a copy of my arrest record, the Philadelphia police, to my parents' home in Florida.

Oh wow!

Think is legal. I'm not even sure.

I don't think so. I don't think so.

And they got it and found out, and we're like, "What?" Right? Like, and I remember being devastated and being like, "I thought I had that like that they would never find out." You know. But my father, they didn't have any idea. You know, to the extent. What was happening with me? But my father at the time, I remember he was like, "You know, I did a lot of dumb things when I was young, but I never got caught." Oh, the problem is I got caught, right? The drinking is not the problem.

That's the issue.

Got caught, right? Like so I just have to keep my secrets better, right? And that's a whole other podcast. But yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, thank you for having me. And I'm excited to be here. And I'm really excited if I can in any way fill a void in healing that exists within the community.

Yes. Well, you are, you are. And so be excited. Um, and I just want to say first, if you're listening, that we, Charlie and I, are working together to, um, create a series, a webinar series that starts in November. The title is a working title, but right now we're at Holiday Healing: Support for Addicts and the People Who Love Them. So what we're doing is we're providing a place for the loved ones of— it doesn't have to be just chemsex, but you know, if you're listening to this, you're probably— it's probably going to be mostly chemsex. I would like it to be mostly chemsex because we're going to be able to relate on a different level, but family members, loved I will say loved ones of chemsex users, but also chemsex users who also want to navigate family dynamics and know kind of what they could do, what they should do, you know, what they, what they might expect. But we're going to start this in November. It'll be a— we meet in November, we meet in December, and then we meet in January as a kind of after-action look, reflection of how well did it go and what can we do next time. Because right around, you know, then there's Easter after that. You know, for a lot of people, so they're going to have to navigate another holiday series, but we are working on that. I want you to watch for that coming through. We're going to be putting it on social media as much as possible. I'm going to be reaching out to treatment centers and anybody else that we can. So we really, this is a much needed gap in services that are out there. Yes, there is Al-Anon, but Al-Anon doesn't touch into the specifics of Chemsex. So we're working on that. It's going to be an amazing offering. So keep watching for that. And we're going to be— I'll be putting more information out soon.

Yes. I think it's really important too, not because the holidays are, oh, there's so many parties and there's so many opportunities for relapse. Like, because that's— everybody knows that and that is part of it, right? But I think What's really difficult is there's a lot of rituals, right? Like there's a lot of, we always do this around the holidays, or we always, you know, go to this person's house, you know, who's always passive aggressive, or we always do, you know, have this fight about who's picking up this from this place, right? Or like, we always have this fight about this person who's always late, or maybe they're not even gonna show up, right? Like, mm-hmm. And then, you know, this person pretends like everything's fine and this person freaks out, right? So it's just It's like, you know, there's, there's always, and there's maybe like the person who's using is like, or who's in early recovery is realizing some of these things. I didn't realize how much they stressed me out. Right? Like, or I need to be able to make a meeting and my family is mad that I need to go to a meeting, you know, or I need to like connect with my sponsor, but they're, they're frustrated that I'm on my phone.

Mm-hmm.

you know, every day, blah, blah, blah, and not being super present with them. And how do we navigate that in a way that's gonna work out for everybody, right? Instead of just like the loved ones imposing these demands and then the person in recovery imposing demands, right? Like there's a lot of navigation of that that requires a little bit of skillfulness.

Mm-hmm.

And I love that you brought up Al-Anon because I love Al-Anon. You know, I think it's amazing for people to really start to learn how to tune into themselves. and listen, like, am I hungry right now? Am I tired? Do I want to take this phone call? Do I not? And this is, this applies to everyone, right? Like, because I've lost myself in this whole thing. I've lost my ability to sense into my internal cues of what I'm feeling, what I'm needing. You know, I don't even know why I'm fighting with people sometimes, right? Or we're going into these patterns. And so, uh, I should just stop it there, but I have more to say about Al-Anon. But I, I, oh, well, I think about Al-Anon, you know, there's, there's this saying in Al-Anon, um, for people who love people that are in use or in recovery, there's no word, no phrase, no sentence, no paragraph that can change your loved one. Mm-hmm.

I love that. Right.

Because loved ones often spend a lot of time, a lot of time and a lot of effort trying to change or educate or help or convince or coax or manage their loved one. And Al-Anon says this, to really help a person let go of that efforting, right? Like, it's like so much effort all the time and it's really unsuccessful, right? And depleting and tragic. But I do think that there are ways of being with your loved one and with yourself that are helpful to the situation versus harmful. Right. And so it's, it's good to go, you know, let's stop trying to change the person, which Al-Anon gives us. But I think there's more to learn about how to be, how to be inside of oneself and interact with your loved one that can actually help elevate the situation. And elevate the level of communication and love, right? Like, so there's not nothing you can do, right? But the focus is almost turned more inward on how can I change inside of myself, shift inside of myself, how I'm behaving, how I'm thinking, so that it kind of changes the result of what happens between me and my loved one. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I like that. I like that. So, because what you're saying to me is, for, for loved ones, let me redefine what help means. Because it could mean, to me, as a family member, I could think helping means convincing them to stop or taking them to rehab or, you know, those kind of things is what we think I'm going to help them. But let's redefine what help is because I'm not going to make somebody go to rehab. I'm not going to make somebody stop using because that's expecting them to change and expecting them to make a decision, right, based on what I am forcing them to do. But let me find a way that I can help that's both helpful for me and them, but redefine it in a new way. Is that right?

Yeah. Yeah. Because we think about help in this, like, like I'm gonna help, like basically I'm just gonna help them get clean.

Right, right.

Right. Like, or I'm gonna help them. Like, I, I love this. Um, you know, there's a generational gap that happens too, like with people and their parents or things like this, right? Like if I just help them get a job, then they won't be so miserable. Or if I just, Help them find someone to marry. They won't be so sad. You know, it's like, yeah. So we see it very clearly in this kind of like, um, this way that other people might think about other problems.

Mm-hmm.

But we, we totally get blinded by substance use and think, oh, well, this is different though. If I just help them stop using substances and then I The methods and the strategies that I use to help them are often shaming or they're condescending or they're unskillful, really, if I'm being generous, like just unskillful people who really deeply love and are trying their hardest, well-intentioned, but are causing disconnection between them and their loved one, causing more feelings of resentment or distance than they mean to. And then the person is less likely to come to them for help when they actually are ready.

Yeah.

Because you and I both know, like, if someone is not ready, they're not ready to get help. And that's a very scary place for a loved one to be. Right? Because Watching someone you love do things that are self-harming is devastating.

Yeah.

And it's terrifying. And I think the thing that I think about the most probably, and maybe because I'm a person who suffers with this issue myself, is like a lot of us, when we are really, really scared, We're really terrified. We get angry.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Right? Like, why are you doing this? How could you do this? Like, don't you see what you're doing? Like, don't you see that I'm hurting, that you're hurting us, that you like, that we are scared, blah, blah, blah, you know, or we're just cold and angry, you know, and, and it's very hard for the person in active use to see through that anger to, oh, my per— my family loves me and they're just terrified.

Right.

Right. Because all it feels like is they're just angry at me again, or they're just upset with me again, or I'm just disappointing them again. And so I think part of what we're looking to create is a space for people to really shed some of those protective shields that cause more disconnection.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, because you mentioned earlier, am I hungry, angry, right? So basically halt, halt for the family, for the loved one, right? Am I hungry, angry, lonely, tired? So I'm going to check in with that first before I approach my addict loved one, because most of the time I'm just going to make things worse. Like you said, if I'm acting out of anger, which is really fear, anger is always a secondary emotional, right? But if I'm also hangry, hangry, yeah, hangry too, hungry, if I'm also lonely, if I'm also tired, like those are times when I'm not coming to them at my best and it's never probably going to work out the way that I think it is. Which is also, I think, important here to, when you're reframing what helps, if you, if you can manage the expectation, then you don't end up feeling like you're the loser, like you're missing the mark. Like I haven't done my job as a loved one because they're still using. It's like if you, if you use that as your metrics of whether or not they relapse again, then you're just setting yourself up to feel worse and worse about yourself.

Right.

Yeah.

Because really, like codependency, which is a whole can of worms and I can open it up.

Yeah.

Yeah. I wanna talk about that.

I wanna talk about that.

Like at its core, at its core is like everyone in the family or in the group of loved ones or in the relationship, right? The person that has substance use and the person that loves them is probably suffering with this. And it's It's a way of relating to another person where you have lost sight of your own self, your own individuality, your own worth and value. And in a way, you are trying to gain your worth and value by helping or managing or fulfilling a need for another person.

Yeah.

Right? Like that's not the entirety of codependency, but it's a very big wing, right? Of like, and so there becomes this cycle of maybe even it started when you met the person. Let's say there's a romantic relationship, right? Like, oh, this person over here needs me for whatever reason.

Mm-hmm.

Right? Because they're disorganized and they need me to help them get their life together. Right. Or, or, uh, you know, it could be like, oh, they drink too much and they're trying to get it together or whatever. Right. That's when it starts, you know? And then this person is like, oh, I can help.

Yeah.

Right. And then they help that person and they feel good about themselves and they like the help. Right.

Yeah.

And then it's like, I have worth and value because this person is paying attention to me and really like giving me everything. Right. And it sets off this cycle of like each person is gaining their esteem through the relationship rather than 2 people knowing they have worth and value and coming together to enjoy each other's company.

Yeah. Yeah.

Does that make sense so far?

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm picking it up.

Yeah.

I mean, that's, that's what I did in my marriage. You know, I hated everything about myself. And so I took care of and saved a wife who wanted, you know, and listen, there's also the dynamic of the person who need, who thinks they need taken care of, right? Their, their self-esteem is so low that I have, I need Someone to save me.

Yeah.

Too, right? So that was that dynamic. And then my kids didn't have to think, feel, you know, I did everything for everyone. And that's how I got my self-worth, my purpose. I'm here as, I'm here as the savior. Everything about me is shoved back into a closet, but I'm going to, you know, save everybody else and I'm always there, right? And very codependent. So that's a little illustration about what you're saying, I think.

Yeah.

And yes, I see this with partners who contact me, you know, or they, they meet somebody who they're physically attracted to. And when they, and when they talk to them while sober, there's a, there's a deep connection. But then there's just this pesky little thing called addiction where they, you know, they disappear for about a week going on a chemsex binge. And then they think, I'm going to save this person. I'm sober. I don't wanna do chemsex. I'm here as the savior. I'm gonna fix them. Yeah. And that's just never gonna work, is it? Oh yeah.

So this is the reason that I have difficulty with having like my own, um, social media brand is that I don't, it's hard for me to make blanket statements. Yes.

So never is not a word that we should use there. Right?

Right. Because, yeah, well, here's the deal. If you really break it down, like let's reduce it down. Yeah. Almost every single person on this earth, if this is a blanket statement I was going to make, yeah, is attracted to traits, good and bad.

Yeah.

In a partner that remind them of their parents.

Yes. Yeah. Right.

Like that's a blanket statement I feel comfortable making.

Yeah. Okay.

So when you tell me like that scenario, okay, I, I met this person sober. We had this great connection conversation. It was like immediate, right? For me, that attraction always stems from there's something familiar, family familiar, right? Like in that attraction that is spiking something internally for me that reminds me of my family of origin, right? Whether that's a wound or not is up for debate, right? Like, and so I'm immediately, I have this intensity or this connection with someone. It could remind me of intensity in my family of origin.

Mm-hmm.

Right. It could remind me of how they connect or disconnect, how they relate to definitions of love or relate to their own pain or not. Right. Like, so even though it's like, oh, we were just flirting, we're just having fun. Like there is a whole, like, you know, an interpersonal neurobiology basically, which is like my jam. I love it.

Mm-hmm.

You know, we have all these neurons firing inside of us that are picking up on tiny little details about the person subconsciously, like beneath our consciousness, beneath our thinking mind, that are like, oh, this is like, we know this, right? Like we've seen this before, but now it's newer. It's spicier. It's got a very attractive person in front of it. Right? Like, So we're like, oh yeah, give me more of that. Right? Like how they, they really are into us and then they, they don't text us back for 7 hours. Right? Like that might be that. And then they're so happy that we text and we had all that like depletion and fear and why aren't they texting me back? And then we got, oh yes, they can't, they can't wait to hear from us. Right? Like that might remind me of a, a pattern with my parent. Right? Like who knows?

Yeah.

Um, but all that to say, like that initial attraction, even that is something that usually the person has to do some reflection on.

Yeah.

Right. And I'm not saying that that can't work out, right? Like I'm married to somebody that I thought was totally different than my parents. Totally different. I thought they were nothing like My father, right? They have a lot of things in common, you know, 13 years later, I'm like, oh, okay.

Wow.

You know, like, because my, my nervous system, my brain, they're all picking up on stuff that I couldn't see myself.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And so we've had to work through some of these patterns and I've had to work through, wow, like, this is me. I feel like a teenager. Like the way that I'm wanting to react in this situation or the way that I'm wanting to escape or whatever else when there's tension or friction.

Yeah.

So I'm kind of going way off track here.

No. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, it's, it's good. It's good. It's good. Cause this, this is, you know, this is what I had to realize with men is that I wanted the men who did not treat me well or was, were aloof that I couldn't, I couldn't reach. Because it was the dynamic I had with my dad, always trying to get his attention, always trying to get his affection, always chasing that. But if a man was like all about me and was complimentary and, you know, and, and just like, I was like, ew, you know, you know, that's, that's, that doesn't attract me. I want you to, you know, treat me. I want you to ignore me, you know?

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, 100%. I mean, yeah. Okay. So the woman who came up with the term codependence, Pia Melody, I'm so very lucky that my mentor studied under her.

Nice.

So her framework is something that I work in and with a lot. Um, and I highly recommend to everyone the book Facing Codependence. It's amazing. Um, but this is really highlighting something that she talks about a lot, which is self-esteem. And knowing your value, right? And a lot of times, if you suffer with codependency, you have an injury to the sense of self-worth. And so when you walk in a room, you're always measuring, who am I better than? Who am I worse than?

Yeah.

I'm better than this person. I'm worse than this person, right? I, I make less money than them, so I'm worse than, or I'm more attracted to them, so I'm better than, right? Like there's always like a sizing up happening constantly in the mind. Right. And when you're talking about like, you know, people who thought I was great, you know, the mind actually goes like, oh, well then they must be less than.

Yeah.

Right. Like, 'cause if I'm better than them, I'm— they're less than me. Right. I want someone who thinks they're better than me to think I'm great. Right. And so it does, it kind of like feeds into that chase on top of you've already had this experience with your father where it's difficult to get attention.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so I think, and I think we really like, we talk about attention in a kind of gross way a lot of times, like, because attention matters.

Right. Right.

Like, but we're like, like when we talk about kids, oh, they just want attention. They're just trying to get your attention, you know, or like, That person's posting because they want attention. And it's like, attention is like the most valuable commodity in relationships, period.

Yeah.

Like if my partner doesn't give me any attention, how would I ever know that he loved me?

Right.

If my mother never gave me any attention, I would not know that she loved me.

Yeah.

Right. And so it's like attention matters.

Right. It's the motivation behind why you need the attention or why you want the attention, I would say, is, or if you're consciously trying to get it to solve your worth, your self-worth need. That's why validation is also, you can have, there's good validation. Everybody needs validated.

Right.

But if I need that validation to feel better about myself, if that's what I feel like is, you know, that's a difference.

Right.

I think.

Yes. Right. Like I'm again, going back to what I said a few minutes ago, like if I'm trying to get my worth and value through you.

Yes.

Rather than self-esteeming, right. You know, creating my own worth and value, knowing I have it.

Yeah.

Always that my imperfection as a human doesn't take away from my worth and value. My addiction doesn't take away from my worth and value.

Yeah.

My difficulty, you know, loving someone in addiction doesn't take away my love, my worth and value, right? Like there's so much shame around having problems or having issues or not being able to accomplish a goal or loving someone who's struggling. And it's so silly. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like all these people have worth and value. And just because they're suffering with a problem or a mental illness or a difficulty in life doesn't take away at all from their worth and value.

Yeah.

But when clinicians like me say stuff like that, it's like, what? Revolutionary. Never heard of that before. Right? Because everyone has this assumption, like something is wrong with me or something is less than with me because I have addiction or because I love someone or someone in my family does.

Right. Right. So, and I think that that's, that, that, that's what I see with parents often, right? Is that their child is a reflection of how well they've done as a parent or them as a, as a person. And a lot, if you're getting your worth and your value by how well your child's doing, it's so volatile and now they're an addict. So what does that say about me?

Right.

So what would you say to a parent who, what do you, what would you say? What do you say to parents anyway? I mean, you know, how do you separate, how do you not blame yourself? How do you not personalize it, internalize it, and keep from, you know, that fear and that anger? Like what is your advice, your best advice for parents of addicts? Hmm.

This is where I'm like, oh, there's, it's, it's so big, right?

It's so big.

It's so difficult to make a blanket statement because, yeah, every, like, you know, every person is different. Every family's different. It's all case by case, right? Like, yes. Um, so I'm trying to think of like, what, what can always be true?

Yeah. Yeah.

Like what, what can always be true is that when your child is suffering, it doesn't matter why they're suffering.

Mm-hmm.

It doesn't matter if you caused it or someone else caused it or addiction caused it. You wanna create a space that is open to help alleviate the suffering.

Mm-hmm.

Because We can deal with guilt that you might have about things that have happened. We can deal with fights you've had or unskillful interactions you've had. We can deal with those things later when some of the suffering has eased. But right now, if you're person, your child is suffering, you don't wanna make it about you and what if you're good enough or not good enough. You wanna create a space for your child to get well. And whether your child chooses to get well or not is their choice, especially if they're an adult child, right? But you want to create a space in which they might come to you for help when they need it.

Hmm.

And if you are really kind of like wrapped up in this evaluation of your own motherhood or fatherhood, you won't be able to really extend a hand to them.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's what I would say is almost always true.

Yeah. I love that. I love that. They're suffering. Doesn't matter why. And though the next thing, the next question I'm going to have is, at what point are we enabling Okay. At what point are we causing more suffering without meaning to?

Okay. Because this is immediately after I said all that stuff, I was like, the thing that people are going to follow up with are like, well, what does it mean creating a space to be there to help them if they need help, right? Like, or like you're saying, like, at what point are we enabling, right? Because Loving someone doesn't mean funding their slow death. Loving someone does not mean taking responsibility for the things in their life that they're supposed to take responsibility for.

That's right. Yeah.

Right. Like, and, you know, granted everyone is allowed to make their own definitions of love, but I think That we would universally say loving someone is something we do that helps encourage life rather than destruction or smallness or death or narrowness.

Hmm.

Right? Like, you don't think about like, live and let live, love and let love, you know, like you're, it's feels open. It feels expansive. It feels energetic. It feels life-giving, right? But love, if love makes something more difficult, more bogged down, more narrow, you know, that doesn't feel like love to a lot of people, right? And so I think loving someone and creating a space for them that is loving when they're suffering Takes boundaries, appropriate boundaries.

Yeah.

Right. Which means things like, oh, okay. Like you want to borrow money, but you're inactive use. I don't hear from you for periods of time. Our relationship is suffering because I'm in fear all the time and you just disappear on me. Right. Like, and so It's impacting how I feel on a daily basis, and I'm scared, and I don't know what you're actually gonna use the money for. Are you gonna pay your rent? Are you gonna go out and use? I don't know. Right. Then I would say, I'm sorry, I don't think I can help you out financially. I can help you out by, you can come stay with me. You, um, I'm here as an ear. For you, if you wanna talk to me, even though that can be scary if your person is in psychosis, right? Like I, that's a whole, whole other conversation. Um, I've experienced that myself and it's, it's, uh, very terrifying. Um, mm-hmm. So, or, or it's going like, I would love to help you out financially. Um, I will give you money if you want to go into a treatment center, then I will be able to lend you money.

Mm-hmm.

Right. I'll be able to, um, pay for you to get into sober living.

Mm-hmm.

Right. Like then I would be able to help you financially because then the person has a choice. They're forced into a choice like, oh, I can either try and go get the money somewhere else. Mm-hmm. Or I can take the money from my loved one and try to get help. And the choice is on them.

Mm-hmm.

Right? Instead of the loved one feeling like, oh, I didn't, I just said no. And now they're going to go do all this stuff to try and get money or they're going to be homeless or blah, blah, blah. And it's like, no, I'm going, like, I will give you some money if you go into a treatment center. I will help you pay for that. I'll help you pay for sober living. Right. But I also think it's appropriate if you don't have any money to lend, cuz this happens too, to just go, I don't have any money to lend you.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, I wish I could help you, but I, I don't have that. What I have is to offer is my love, my care, uh, You can come stay on my couch for a night or two until you figure things out. Right. Like there's, there's a way that we can be helpful without like really hurting ourselves or our own financial state. Right. But these things are difficult to navigate because people get so dysregulated thinking if I don't help, they'll die. Or if I don't help, they'll be homeless. Yes.

Yes.

Right. And that, that is very scary and it's very real, right? Because having boundaries means that the person in use has to actually take responsibility for themselves.

Right. Right.

Right. And what they do with that responsibility, you don't know. Sometimes they will, you know, blow up their life. Sometimes they'll, you know, flounder and flail for a minute, but they will figure it out. But they definitely won't figure it out if you keep bailing them out.

That's right. That's right.

And for the loved one, they really need support through that, right? Because maybe they have the ability to say no for like a day or two, and then they freak out because the, maybe the person in use is texting them like, you abandoned me. You didn't help me.

Blah, blah, blah.

That happens, right? You don't care about me. And they're like, I do care. I just wanna help you in the right way, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, you don't love me. And then they're like, fine, here's $600, you know, or whatever.

Yeah. Right.

And so the loved one really needs support because what ends up happening is the person in use doesn't believe in themselves enough that they can get better or that they can figure it out. Right underneath all of that stuff, it's like, I need someone to save me. I won't be able to save myself. I won't be able to figure it out myself.

Yeah.

And when a person, a loved one has boundaries and goes, I believe that you are going to figure this out or that you're going to rise to the occasion or that you're going to get better and I'll help you. I'll stand by and support you getting better. It's almost as if they're talking to their loved one as if they are capable. And then the person in use might actually ponder for a moment, maybe I am capable.

Hmm.

Maybe I'm not as useless, worthless, unable, and able, you know, like incapable as I thought, because they are thinking that they know I can do it.

Yeah.

And that's something that is a rare thing to kind of elicit.

Mm-hmm.

And take some skillfulness and some courage.

Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? Which is what, yeah, it does. Which is why I think, you know, you keep mentioning skillfulness. So, yeah, anyone, a loved one of a chemsex user in our case, Having some type of coach like you to help them through this can teach them some skill, teach them some way to, to word what they have, what they want to say, when they want to say it, you know, how they want to say it, but also how do I take care of me and how do I shift the paradigm? Because, you know, if a, if a parent says you're not allowed here anymore, right? Like you're not allowed here anymore. And then They know, knowing that they're, they, to them, they're sending them to their death. Like you said, they, they, they get into this dysregulated place, then they get a call from the emergency room. You know, because a lot of, a lot of guys will, are, are more and more chemsex users are going to the emergency room. They're getting overamped, you know, or they go into psychosis or, or whatever, whatever it is. Their, their heart starts, you know, they, they think they're having a stroke or something like that. They go to the emergency room. Well, their, their parent, they call their parents, right? So the parents can blame themselves or they, they have a decision like, do I leave him there in the hospital with nowhere to go?

Or— I mean, go to the hospital, go see him.

Do I bring him? Do I let him come back is the question.

Oh, okay. There's 2 things here, right? The first is kind of the issue of not letting someone in the house, which I do wanna address.

Yeah.

'Cause I think that's really important. And the second is how do you respond to someone who's like in an emergency situation, right?

Yeah.

Um, because it is true, like sometimes when you have a boundary and you, like, it will go poorly, right? Like the person will go hurt themselves or they'll go, you know, use or get in an even worse situation, right? Like that is true. And that's why loved ones need support because that's scary, that in-between time, right? And it's even scarier if they then get the call, oh, they're in their emergency room. I just wanna say, thank God they made it to the emergency room.

Yeah. Right.

First and foremost, right? Like that's, that's a positive. Actually, and emergency room is a great place to go. I'm here. I love you. You're not alone. And then just be with them.

Mm-hmm.

Not trying to preach or manage or convince or coax, right? Like, but letting them know, like, you know, if you get outta here, when you get outta here, If you want, I just want you to know the offer still stands. I'll help you get help.

Yeah.

If you want it, right? You don't have to say it 10 times. You only gotta say it once.

Okay.

And let the emergency room do the heavy lifting. That fear that they must feel, the pain that they feel. I mean, not everybody does. I'll be real with you, right? Like people go to the emergency rooms multiple times. They don't care. Right.

Right. I know. Right.

So like, that's a reality too.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

So that's, this is why I'm like, it's case by case.

It is. It is. Yeah. But, um, it is case by case.

But I do think, I think something about like going, okay, this is a very real thing and it, it goes across a lot of different addictions, even just alcoholism. Right. Which I, when I say just alcoholism minimizes it, but right. Millions of people die of alcoholism every year. So it's not like it's nothing. Um, so when parents or even spouses or loved ones or roommates or friends go like, I can't have you in my house. You can't be in my house.

Yeah.

Right. What they're actually doing in that moment. And I think this is why our holiday course is really important for both addicts and loved ones to be there because this information is so helpful to both people and to hear both people's perspective on it is so enlightening for everyone. But what they're actually doing is going, if I let you in here, you will do something that makes you hate yourself. And I will do something that makes me disrespect myself. Right? Like if I let you steal from me.

Yeah.

Right? Like if I know when you come in the house, Some of my jewelry goes missing, right? Or when I let you come in the house, by 24 hours later, you start calling me the C word or the B word or whatever, right? Like, because I won't give you more money, I won't, you know, or I said something that pissed you off or whatever, right? Like, then we get in a fight and there's name-calling. So I know when you come in this house, You put our relationship at risk. It damages our relationship, right? Because you're going to— and especially I think it's really important, this part. Your addiction is going to have you behave in a way that makes you not feel good about yourself. And I don't want my space to be a space Where you don't like yourself, right? Like even I remember going home to visit my family. I lived like 3,000 miles away, uh, or actually it was 1,000. I don't know why I said 3,000. I lived 1,000 miles away, but it was like I would go home and I would say hi and then I would sleep for like 30 hours, right?

Oh yeah. Right.

Because I was like coming down off of whatever, you know? Yeah. And my, my family would just be kind of like waiting to see when I was gonna hang out with them. Right?

Yeah.

And then I felt bad and I apologized, but like, I was working so much and I need to recover, blah, blah, blah. And all the lies that I told. Right. And then it was like, I didn't even wanna go home cuz I felt so ashamed of the way that I behaved when I was there. Right. And I knew that they knew something's wrong, but then they're not saying anything. Right. And so it's like everybody's having to engage in this lying to themselves and this distance, and it's not good for the relationship. Right. And so again, if like, if I have a child who's like, maybe I said no using in the house and they used.

Yeah.

Right. Like. I go, you know, I told you that. I meant it. I, I love you endlessly. I always want you to come stay with me, but you used in the house and I told you you couldn't, so you cannot come back.

Mm-hmm.

Right? That is going, I love you so much. I will not let my house be an unsafe place for you.

Right. Yep.

And that's like, people are like, but then they're going to go out and live on the street, you know? And it's okay. Well, maybe living on the street for a day or two is really going to build some motivation to get help.

Right.

Like, I know, I know it's terrifying when I say that, like, I have a child. I can't even imagine how difficult it is. Really, like, it's so painful for me to even be like, go into preschool. Who knows if you get bullied there? You know, like, my daughter's 3, you know? So, but it's like, I understand that what I'm saying is unfathomably difficult, but it doesn't work the other way.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. And so you, you have a choice, like, do I Do I keep going in the direction that we're going that doesn't work and gets worse, progressively worse? Like they come in my house, they lie to me, they do what I didn't want them to do, or they steal from me or whatever. They hate themselves more and more and more. Their use picks up and progresses, right? Or do I take a risk and change how I hold boundaries or how I keep our home safe? And try something new and see what happens.

Yeah.

Right. And it really is, I'm keeping the home safe for you by making sure you don't hurt yourself in my home.

Right, right. Exactly. Yes. Yeah.

So there's my very long—

It's good. Yeah, no, it's good. Um, so I made some notes of some other scenarios that I have.

Okay.

come across, right? One of the main ones, one of the main ones, and we talk about that, we've talked about it here on the podcast a lot, is the partner scenario where one, usually they open the relationship, one of them finds meth out in the, in their comings and goings, and then they get hooked. Okay. The partner will contact me, you know, how do I, what do I do? How do I help? You know, you know, and what I find out is. The using partner is leaving. They're going to use, they're doing their binges, they're binging or whatever they're doing, going out for, even if it's a day, maybe it's a week, maybe it's longer. And then they come back. The non-using partner cares so much for them and does love them that, you know, here's some food, here's some water, go get some rest, that kind of thing. And so I have this little phrase that I use is, as long as they have a man, a meal, and a mattress, They're going to keep using because there's no consequence, right? But the partner is like, this is my husband, like, or this is my lifelong partner. What do I, how do I do this? How do I navigate this? How do I, you know, and like, how do I get them help? And I'm like, I always say like, unless your partner, the using partner, is contacting me and asking me for help, They're not asking for it. They don't want it. So I never know exactly what to say besides, easy for me to say, set a boundary with a consequence and stick to it. You know, but that's, you know, that's the easy answer for parents, partners, any loved one, friends, siblings. That's an easy answer, but it's not easy to do, I'm sure. But what would you say to a partner? Who comes to you with that, that kind of situation of, how do I help? How do I, how do I convince him to stop or go to rehab?

Well, I would, I would ask the partner, what do you want your marriage to be? Right? Because my husband and I were very clear when we got married that we wanna be together forever. Right? Like that's, that was our intention.

Mm-hmm.

However, there are deal breakers, right? Like I think that people are like kind of like super romantic and like thinking about marriage sometimes, but like if my husband abuses me, yeah, deal breaker. Yeah. If he abuses my daughter, deal breaker. Yeah. Right? Like. And this is where I'm gonna challenge a person. If my husband abuses himself in front of me and continually abuses himself, hurts himself, and will not get help for it, will not change, is that a deal breaker? And I know that that's not like a yes or no for a lot of people, right? So, but I think that it matters because there's the 2 people and then the relationship, right? The relationship is this 3rd thing. It's like this living dynamic thing, right? Like your relationship can be great. Your relationship can be toxic. Your relationship can be very tense at certain times. Your relationship can be free-flowing and open, right? So the relationship is a thing that 2 people have to care for and manage and put effort into. And if you are standing by and watching someone hurt themselves and they know that they're doing it and that you're kind of just letting them, even if a part of them, the addictive part, is going like, I want to do this. This is how I want to spend my time.

Yeah.

I love this. You need to support me.

Yeah.

Another part of them deep down inside is like, oh, I know I shouldn't be doing this.

Right.

Well, I guess my partner's okay with it, so I'm gonna keep doing it for now, but I probably shouldn't. Right. And so it's kind of like you're gonna grow the relationship into a thing, not intentionally. But that is a place, the relationship becomes a place where someone hurts themselves and you just watch it happen.

Right.

And let it happen. Right. And not only that, but you are letting go of your own wants or needs or hopes for the marriage.

Right.

And so I will, you know, first and foremost, it's about like, Do you want that for yourself? I would ask the partner, you know, like, what were you hoping this marriage would look like? What would you, what were you hoping the relationship would look like long-term? You know, and getting clear on that, because if you're clear on that, then you can have a conversation with the partner, whether it's directly or with a third party about like, you know, I, These are the things I want. I want us, I want you to not disappear for a week at a time. I want us to have regular Sunday dates. I want us to have, you know, powwows about where we're going and what we want to do and planning the future. I want to, you know, whatever it is that you want.

Mm-hmm.

Being clear on it, because once you've been clear on it, then the other partner has a decision to make. Am I gonna show up for my relationship or my marriage, or am I not?

Yeah. Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

And then it's, it's in their hands. And then ultimately, as you and I know, most of the time use, meth use picks up rather than decreases. Although it does in some very strange, odd Rare cases, right? Like someone goes, enough is enough. My partner's been very clear that he's going to leave if I, if I continue this, right? Like I need to get help now. I need to like stop the train now. Some people do that. That's great. You know?

Yeah.

But for the loved one, they get to go, you know, I was very clear about what I want and you keep disappearing or you keep doing this, you know, and I can't, Continue to just be like your maid or your valet or whatever, you know, and clean for you and feed you. Like, that's not what I wanted in this marriage. So I have to, we have to separate, you know, and maybe that will be the wake-up call. Like, yes, they were clear with me and I keep not doing it. Right. But a boundary is not a boundary if you don't actually hold it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right? Because if you say, this is what I want for the marriage and this is what I want for us and our lives long-term, and then they don't do it and they don't do it and they don't do it and you stay, you are telling them without words, oh, I wasn't real about that.

Right.

It doesn't actually matter to me.

Right.

Right. So it's complicated and it's hard to get, but I I think that those are some things that I would put into their minds.

Yeah, I like that. And you're so much more diplomatic and compassionate in the way you word things, in the way that you word things compared to me.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but you saying that really hit me in terms of, I'm not, I, I'm not going to allow you to abuse yourself. Because you're really, you're abusing the marriage. You're abusing in proxy me, you're abusing us, you know, and, and I can't just allow that to happen. It's a deal breaker, right?

Yeah.

To me, that does also take a lot of pointing fingers and shaming the user, which is only going to make them, you know, you said meth accelerates. It's only going to fuel, throw fuel on a fire to shame them in that way. It's your fault. You've ruined this marriage, you know, all that kind of stuff. Phrasing it that way to me does kind of take the— it looks at the marriage as an entity instead of this is all you and your fault and your problem too, I think.

Yeah, totally. Because I mean, I think there is like a habit of blaming or one person is at fault. And, you know, it's really about like, if we're in a romantic relationship, a loving relationship, we both have to care for the thing.

Yeah.

Right? Like, yeah, I think, you know, there are these stories about people who get married that just have this wonderful relationship and they never have to do any work on it and they just die best friends or whatever, you know, 60 years later. I don't know any of those people. Right? Like, I would say everyone I know, and this is a crazy blanket statement, but I'm gonna make it. Everyone I know has to work on their marriage. It doesn't just come beautifully, right? Like, yeah, they have to work through friction and tension and disagreements and new experiences, right? And you also have to work to grow together, right? Like, because if you don't work on growing together, often you'll grow apart.

Yeah.

Right. And so there's so much work in a marriage. It's not just a given thing. And so to not be working on the marriage proactively, but to actually be kind of desecrating it or taking away from it is like, hey, like, this is our— we have to actually care about this thing that we're doing together and put work into it and make it nice. And if you're not actually going to show up for our marriage, like, I might have to remove myself because it's too heartbreaking for me.

Yeah.

Not that you're a bad person, but like it takes two to have a marriage.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, Charlie, this is, we just got started. It's like, this is like a tip of the very iceberg. Um, I have, um, a podcast to record after this, unfortunately, and we're going to have to To narrow, to start to close, start the descent here of this plane. But I would like to make this part 1.

Okay.

And I'd like to come together in the next couple of days if you can, and so we could do a part 2.

Okay.

Is that good with you?

Yes, 100%.

I love that. I have a ton more scenarios that I've written down here too that I want to, but some things that I want to talk about next time. So for you listening, just to kind of tease you too, is I think it's interesting about what you're saying about family dynamics were the same before the addiction came. And they're going to be, you know, those dynamics are going to carry through. And it's a good time, I think, for a family or loved ones to really start to look at Oh, let's, let's start analyzing this relationship. Let's zoom out.

Yeah.

And maybe find out what we could do better as a family anyway. What does this, what does, what is this addiction a sign of for us and for me?

Oh, totally.

Is that right?

Yes, totally. Like addiction is a symptom often, right? Like the, the substance use is a symptom. of an underlying operational dynamic, right? Which again, I think a lot of parents or loved ones would be like, see, it is, it is my fault, or it is like something to do with us or whatever. Right? Like, right. And so I'm like, don't go there. Don't go there. Come back, little Shiva. But like, yeah, but like, there is a way that the use is solving some kind of issue that the person is having or some kind of feeling. It's a relationship to pain. It's a relationship to It's a relationship to intimacy. Mm-hmm. Right? So those things just need greater zoom out and reflection and kind of investigation into each individual's family of origin and really like their development of these relationships to themselves to figure out how did we get here?

Mm-hmm.

Right? Because it's not, it's not just the last couple months. It's not just the last year. Right? Like there are things that, that were triggered in me or hooked in me that brought us together that are operating now full speed that were always there. Yeah.

Right.

And, and truly that happens in almost all relationships. And so it is workable, it is solvable, but sometimes it takes a little bit of effort and reflection.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. So we want to talk about too, so next time, dynamics of friendship. I'm like, that's enough for a Friday. No, like friendships. You know, a friend comes to me. What do I, how do I help this? You know, I had a call yesterday. He was outside of the treatment center about to pick up his friend. He said this is his 5th time this year. You know, I'm about to take a stand with him and I'm going to tell him this and this, you know, you know, anyway, so we want to talk about that. We want to talk about siblings, how siblings, that dynamic as well. More about partners too, because there's a lot of that here in the kiddo sex world.

Yeah.

So we want to talk, we want to dive deeper into More scenarios and more tips. I think, I know if you're listening that you have, I know you're getting a ton out of what Charlie is saying because it's intelligent, it's experienced, it's beautifully put, full of compassion. And I just, I love your approach. I love how you think. I love how you deliver. And I just think you're going to, this You are going to have such an impact around the world. And I just want to say, are you accepting clients right now, by the way?

I have a couple openings right now and I'm also working on my own like codependency course that people can get.

Sign me up. Sign me up. Um, yeah, so we'll put your contact information in the show notes. Please reach out to Charlie. Um, if you have liked what you've heard today, what you've heard today, and I know you will, we're going to have a part 2. So what I'd like to do is probably have a bonus episode. We'll do that, um, especially as we approach our, um, our collaborative project coming up, the webinar series.

Yes, which I'll be so excited for. And I love like, you know, like getting live questions and diving into the stuff, you know, so it's Yeah, I think it's gonna be great.

Yeah, and I'm glad you said that because closer to it, we want to do some live episodes. We want to, you know, advertise them. We're going to do— I've never done a live stream podcast yet. I have the ability to do that, but we could do some live stream and get live questions. Um, I think that would be so helpful as well.

I think so too.

Yeah, Charlie, thank you. No, thank you.

I just, I, I'm so grateful to be on here and I love the way that you dive into all of this. I told you when I met you, like, I, I have to compliment you how sincere and, and truly humble you are in your approach and your questions and how curious you are too, even though you have so much experience. And so I just wanna thank you for letting me be on.

Wow. Well, thank you for being the first person ever to refer to me as humble.

Okay. You know, maybe there are some parts that aren't humble. That's true too. But I, I experience a lot of your humility.

Yeah. You see the humble part.

I love it.

Thank you. All right, guys, I hope you're ready for, for part 2, and we will see you all next time.

Bye.