EP 3:55 Chemsex Recovery: The SMART Way

SMART Recovery is a mutual support community who come together in meetings, both online, in person, all around the world, by the way. And as Zach said earlier, we use practical evidence-informed tools to guide us. They're not a prescription. They are not, you must do this. They're just suggestions that people can use and some will be useful, some won't.

Chemsex, sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, Mephedrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of The Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guests on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. All right, welcome back to The Aftermath Podcast. Thank you for tuning in today. I'm excited, very excited to introduce 2 new friends of mine from SMART Recovery. I've been Trying for probably the past year to try to get some alternative forms of recovery represented on the podcast besides my own philosophy. Smart Recovery, Dharma Recovery, LifeRing, you know, all the— what is the other one? Naked Truth maybe or something. But, you know, there's all sorts of different routes you can take and we haven't had any representation on the podcast. Mm-hmm. It's either 12 steps or I made my own way like I did. And so I'm really excited to— I started to do some outreach to specific people to be on the podcast and the algorithm, I don't know if it's an algorithm, whatever it is, God sent Gus to me who is specific to Chemsex and SMART Recovery. It was like the gold mine there. So I'm really glad to have— Uh, my friends on here, I'm gonna introduce them both. You'll, um, Gus, is it Curran? Sorry, I should have asked before. Is the senior dir— Oh, good, good. Uh, senior director of training and program development at SMART Recovery. Not just— he's— that's not affiliated with SMART. He's the senior director of training and program development, has more than 15 years of experience in adult learning and nonprofit training. He has also been a SMART Recovery facilitator for nearly a decade and brings lived experience with alcohol, Meth and chemsex PNP to his work. Gus has spent about 22 years of his life not using alcohol, meth, or other drugs, just not all in a row. Today, he helps SMART meeting facilitators, peer support specialists, clinicians, and community support people in finding their own path toward change and recovery. I love that. He currently hosts an LGBTQ+ SMART recovery in Durham, North Carolina, close to me. Yes. And hopes it— if you're in the area, that you will stop Bye. Yes. Yes. And my other friend here is Zach Reedy. He's C-A-S-A-C-T. He/they is the pronouns, is a substance use counselor, recovery advocate, LGBTQ+ community leader, activist, and person in recovery based in New York City. Currently working in a women's residential substance use treatment program in Harlem, Zach brings years of experience serving LGBTQ+ and special population communities across substance use treatment, HIV prevention and care, mental health, homelessness, and community-based advocacy. Zach began their professional career at GMHC, the world's first AIDS service organization, and is currently pursuing a bachelor's degree in addiction studies. And perhaps most importantly, he's dog dad to the fabulous Gizmo.

Oh wow.

I love that. Zach also serves as president of SMART Recovery NYC, working to expand access to practical, evidence-based and inclusive approaches to recovery. Listen to that again, practical, evidence-based, and inclusive. I love that.

Mm-hmm.

Drawing from both professional training and lived experience, Zach's work recognizes the realities of LGBTQ+ people may face, including stigma, isolation, challenges around identity and acceptance, chemsex-related challenges, and the need for affirming community. Harm reduction, self-compassion, and building a life and community worth showing up for are central to their approach. Love it. Zach believes recovery isn't about fitting into a mold. It's about building an authentic life that actually feels worth staying present for. As both a counselor and a person in recovery, he is committed to helping build recovery spaces that are empowering, accessible, compassionate, and responsive to the communities they serve. Wow. Love it. Love it.

I need to update my bio.

I got you. I got you. Yeah. Thank you both for being here. I'm already, I'm already giddy reading your, reading your bios because it's just so in line with what I believe, but also so in line with what I believe is necessary in chemsex recovery. So I just want to start, Gus, if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about your, your story, if you don't mind.

Oh yeah, sure. My story is not that unusual. I actually got sober the first time when I was 19. My mom sent me to rehab. That was, I thought, an overreaction, but I ended up staying sober for 12 years. And then in Los Angeles, I got curious about like party drugs, particularly what we called ecstasy, MDMA. And that was for me the gateway drug, forget pot, because MDMA, that led to the late night clubs, the overnight clubs, the all weekend clubs, which led to the meth, which led to My, you know, my downfall. So, um, for me, it got very— I was very isolated in my use, but also longing for the kind of like connection, uh, that I thought I needed. I— it was very strange. In most people that I talked to, um, it, it involved a lot of sex, and mine did involve a lot of sex, but it also was very sad, like alone with porn, alone at the sex club in my room watching porn. Maybe getting with someone. So for whatever that's worth, I was at, you know, I would often ask people if they wanted to come home and watch like my Cyndi Lauper DVD. This is like, they'd be like, yeah. And I'd be like, oh, you're taking your pants off anyway. That's a whole nother talk. But, but I definitely had that, that brokenness. And when I, when I stopped, I went to treatment and It was a great treatment center in Los Angeles, but it was, it was treating the meth addiction. And it wasn't until I started at Smart Recovery and I met facilitators who were doing the LGBTQ meetings, somehow I had missed the, the chemsex train. Um, people were asking me about it and so got educated, learned so much from Zach actually. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, oh yes, we didn't treat the sex. We treated the meth. We didn't treat that. I so closely now associate sex with meth. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I've been, I told Zach, I'm like, I feel like I was broken for years and I didn't even know it. Like, uh, so more on that later. But I, I just really, um, I'm really only now thinking about, you know, how that affected me, how I felt broken. By the way, I wasn't broken.

Mm-hmm.

But my brain was kind of rewired and, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's getting better. But I, I just, uh, Yeah. So it's been really interesting. I didn't get sober when I quit meth. I kept drinking. Um, and then 10 years ago, uh, after my last relapse with meth and 2 DUIs, I started with SMART Recovery. Now it's been 10 years, um, uh, meth and alcohol free. And that is, that is what I, that's my goal. So it's been great, but pretty, pretty, pretty standard. Uh, and also different. Everybody's different.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, it seems like there's this progression that happens to a lot of men where, you know, you start out the party, you start out the parties and you keep going and then you slowly trickle into this solo use of locking yourself in a bedroom with your porn for days.

It's true. Yeah, it's true. And it's, it's so funny because in the beginning, the reason I loved meth is it made me confident. It made me feel good. I've never had great self-esteem as far as how I looked. And I'm like, I never felt like I fit in in the gay community. Suddenly I was like, oh, I do fit in. I can dance. I never did take my shirt off on the dance floor, but I'm like, this is, this is my people and I love it. And they're friends and we're hanging out after and we're doing stuff. And, um, that was great. And it just, it, that didn't last as long as I wanted it to. That's for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I was, I was, I had a sales call or not sales call, a free coaching session earlier, but it's, I was telling him like, The, whatever you, it seems like whatever you're doing meth for, it, it takes that away. Like if it is con— if it is connection, you end up being isolated. You know, whatever it is you're doing it for, you get the opposite. Oddly enough.

It's true.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing. And I want to come, I want to come back to a couple of things you said, but let me get to Zach first. Zach, would you mind sharing a little bit about you, your story?

Sure. Yeah. Um, so Uh, I was raised by parents that weren't there, you know, very absent parents. And so I had to grow up pretty early and I developed, you know, I learned that I was gay about 5th grade and, you know, came out in high school and then, you know, but I was really, uh, uh, isolating already. And so when I was 27 years old on the apps after breaking up with my boyfriend, uh, meth found me. Mm-hmm. You know, I was on, on the apps and there I am, you know, thinking I'm making friends and this guy introduces me to drugs, to, to methamphetamine. And, and it just goes downhill from there. You know, it started out as every now and then, you know, maybe every, like once a month. That once a month quickly turned into every weekend. Every weekend quickly turned into every day. Every day turned into becoming losing my job, losing my car, losing my, you know, housing. And that really, it quickly went downhill. I was living in Florida at the time, in Orlando. And, uh, you know, I became homeless. And after about 6 months of that, I, I relocated to South Florida, down to Fort Lauderdale.

And,

well, I was specifically in Wilton Manors, you know, gay mecca of South Florida. And it was— Daddy mecca. Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. And it was, you know, and that, that, that was, you know, there was this community there of younger queer, men mostly that were doing drugs and doing meth and partying and playing, you know, very small community down there. And I started, you know, it, it was scary. I was homeless doing this on the streets. I was doing everything I needed to do to have a place to stay, uh, you know, for the night. I was sleeping in a hammock when I could. I was sleeping around with, you know, to get a shower, to get a sandwich sometimes.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and it was really sad because people, take advantage of the situation, you know, for the sex of it all and stuff like that. And so it really became part of who I was at that period. And then I ended up going to Broward House in Fort— in Welton Manors, uh, prominent LGBT, uh, rehab. And this was because I would— during— right after I started, I got diagnosed with HIV,

uh,

pretty quickly into, uh, using meth. And so honestly, if it wasn't for the HIV diagnosis, I would've, you know, that saved my life. It got me on medicine. It got me on blood pressure medicine. My blood pressure was extremely high growing up. I was always the big— bigger kid. Um, and so there I am, you know, going to, you know, get medical help. Uh, my blood pressure, 230 over 180. You know, they're like, how are you not stroking out? And stuff like that. I'm like, I'm having a good time. And so I, I would— I went to that rehab and got stable for a little bit, but I wasn't ready to stop.

Mm-hmm.

You know? And so this is about 2 and a half years into my run. And I got discharged from that rehab, and I moved into a storage unit, and I found that queer community again. And here I am, Wilton Manors. You know, all this stuff has happened behind the scenes. Nobody really knows about it. And so, at that same time, I discovered another part of this community, the Zoom community. And I became a Zoomer. Wow. And I started, you know, I had a laptop, you know, I had some Wi-Fi sometimes. And so, here I am, on Zoom doing meth with a bunch of guys in our little Hollywood squares. And I eventually developed— yeah, exactly. And that's how it was, you know. And this was, mind you, this is pre-COVID too. This was 2019.

Yeah.

So, you know, we— I was very familiar with Zoom, RingCentral.

Yeah.

Um, you know, and so, so that, uh, I became a huge part of that. I started running rooms. I started being the enabler that I didn't realize I was. And, you know, it was We're always looking for every— as a human being, we're always looking for community. We're looking for connection.

Yeah.

And when we mix, you know, the substance use, the sex and stuff, we find it in the wrong places. You know, many people experience finding community in the wrong places. And here I am, I do this for 3 years. You know, I eventually— the psychosis kicks in all the time. And one day I decide I'm gonna up and leave South Florida. And I hopped on a plane to visit somebody in New York City.

Wow.

And that didn't go well. And this was 2020. So this was right after the pandemic started. And so I fly to New York City, June of 2020, and I'm in New York City for a day with that person. And I get kicked out of his place and I end up wandering the streets for a little while, for about a week. And then stay in Philadelphia for about a month and a half. And I come back to New York City where I find out there's an opportunity for housing. They have a program here called HASSA. for people with HIV.

Mm-hmm.

And so once I got housing, I still wasn't ready. You know, I was put in this, it's called an SRO, single room occupancy.

Mm-hmm.

And this is a shelter version for people with HIV up here. And, uh, you know, I continued using. The isolation started really quickly once I had a space that I could, you know, go home to.

Yeah.

You know, going from being out having sex and doing meth with a bunch of different guys, Um, to doing none of that alone on Zoom.

Mm-hmm.

In this apartment that I have. And, you know, eventually I was doing that every day. The psychosis would kick in every day. It was pretty severe, you know, to the extent that I committed myself to a mental hospital for a 72-hour watch, you know, and that luckily got me some psychiatric help. And so I got put on medicine and about a year later from that, I, I, I broke down and I went to, uh, my friend who lived on above the of the floor above me, and I asked her for help and she took me to my first CMA meeting actually.

Hmm. Okay.

And that was November 23rd, 2022. And I've been sober from meth since then.

Wow. Wow. What a story. What a story. Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah. There, there's a lot of it that's not there that I, you know, to sum it up, but—

Oh yeah.

That's parts of it.

Yeah. Yeah. Is it, it's very interesting to me. Like some of the groups that we have, um, in my program, like we'll have 10, 10 guys together. There might be somebody from Zurich, might be somebody from Fort Lauderdale, might be somebody from Palm Springs or even Australia. And we instantly have the same experience. Like chemsex is chemsex, no matter where in the world it's happening. And the Zoom honestly is one of those things that brings us all together. You know, all around the world. And yeah, you're right. When I was using it, it was, uh, 16 and 15. Wait, yeah, 16, 17, and 18. Um, and even then it was Zoom was the big thing. And, you know, I was like, I knew all about Zoom and then somehow it came to, came into light in the, in during COVID But, um, but yeah, thank you for sharing your story. What a miraculous story. And now you're working in, you're both working in. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah. In the, in the field. I love it.

It's, it's funny, Dallas, when, when Zach and I, Zach shared a screenshot of something you posted about the Zoom rooms and it made me reflect on, uh, like the technology changes, but it's all the same, right? Like when I was at, when I was in the throes of my addiction, it was AOL chat rooms and those 900 numbers to meet local guys. And, uh, you know, I'd go to a guy's house sight unseen, just like, Uh, based on the phone call. Uh, it's, but here we are, you know, then it's, what's next? Like, it's just really, it's really interesting generationally. The pain, the loneliness, the isolation, it's the same, but how we get there has changed. I, there's something there that I find fascinating.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Well, you know, I, I think you're asking what's next. I think AI is gonna play a part. We have these AI, AI bots who will, who can, who will tell you what you want to hear. They will, tell you to like force you to smoke meth and like, you know, like Dom Daddy bot.

Right.

Yeah. Some clients are using, and I think it's like we're turning to that now, you know, as a, as a next, as a next step somehow. Um, but yeah, but the underlying core reasons that we're doing it never changes. Right. I mean, for me, I needed, I needed to feel approval. I needed to feel a part of. You know, because I wasn't feeling that in my own community. And again, what I was left with was total isolation, you know. So, well, I thank you for sharing your stories and thank you for the work that you're doing. And I just want to start very 101, like I always do here, in case somebody's listening and they've never heard of SMART Recovery. You know, we have 50% of my listeners are in the US, but 40% are UK. Uh, you're in, in Europe and then we have some scattered around everywhere else. Um, so, so I'm not sure, some people may not be aware of SMART Recovery. So I'd like it if, if, you know, whoever wants to take the lead there, just give us a little overview of SMART Recovery and I'm gonna put the, the website as you're talking. I wanna share the website if you're watching.

Okay, cool. Um, so SMART Recovery is a mutual support community who come together in meetings, both online, in person, all around the world, by the way. And as Zach said earlier, we use practical evidence-informed tools to guide us. They're not a prescription. They are not, you must do this. They are just suggestions that people can use and some will be useful, some won't be. But at its core, it's a community of people who are exploring their relationship to an addictive substance or addictive behavior. And, and that's an important distinction is that they're exploring the relationship. When you come to SMART, you don't have to say, I'm ready to stop. You know, I've hit my bottom. You don't have to do that. Your goal is yours. You choose it. And, uh, no one's gonna try to change your mind.

Yeah. So earlier when you were sharing, you said, I've been meth-free and I've been alcohol-free and those are my goals.

Yeah.

Yeah. Right. So is that, does that in line with, with SMART? You say, this is what I wanna do. This is my goal with whatever substance.

Yeah, 100%. So for example, I've been struggling a lot since roughly like 2020. When did that? Anyway, recently with everything happening in the world and I've had trouble sleeping. So I've tried CBD, THC gummies. That would've really messed me up when I was younger. That would've been a lapse. That would've been a relapse. And that would've kicked in the, the, like the, what do they call it? The relapse violation effect, the, the abstinence violation effect, which, which people say to themselves, well, I've already done this. I may as well make the most of it. May as well take the weekend, take the week, take the month, right?

Oh, right.

Whereas Smart Recovery's approach and my approach is, you know, this isn't a drug I had problems with. I'm trying this, you know, it ex— it didn't work, so I've stopped. But, um, but it doesn't define my recovery and my journey. And, and it doesn't matter what anyone else says about that. It's, it's my journey. So,

right,

right. My, my red line is alcohol and meth.

Um, okay.

And, you know, not to say the rest is up to, to, to, you know, up for debate, but those are, those are the things I believe I should never touch again.

Right. So then when you say sober, Is that a, is that an agreed upon word in SMART Recovery? What sober means?

Not really. I actually try to avoid it. Um, it's, it's not in it there. That's one thing that's unique about SMART too. You choose your words. Some people think they're in recovery. Some people say they're in recovery. Some people say they're on a journey. Some people say, I don't wanna do meth anymore. Right?

No, I love it.

We don't, we don't have like perfect language for that. And that's one of the things that's so beautiful. We often say that SMART Recovery is accessible, adaptable, and affirming. So you kind of make it your own. You know, when I was going to AA all the time, they used to say, take what you like and leave the rest. Except that wasn't totally true.

Except it wasn't true.

Right.

SMART Recovery is really true. At SMART Recovery, that is true. We really want you to take what works and leave the rest.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Love that. Okay. So when we say, and whoever can answer this, maybe Zach, when we say exploring the relationship, so if I, what does that exactly mean? If I come to a meeting, I know chemsex maybe, or whatever substance is negatively affecting my life. So what, what can SMART do to help me explore what that, what that looks like for me?

So, you know, ambivalence is a huge thing that, that, you know, people in recovery struggle with, especially in early recovery. And so at a SMART Recovery meeting, you have, you know, a big the biggest focus of a SMART Recovery beyond the tool is the crosstalk. You know, it's, it's, it's the exact opposite of a 12-step meeting in that sense. You know, the crosstalk is focal point of this.

Ah.

And during that crosstalk, you know, you, you know, I got sober in CMA, Crystal Meth Anonymous. You know, there's NA, AA, all these other A's, but with SMART Recovery, it's addiction in general. So you're getting this, you're having this conversation with a bunch of different people with a bunch of different addictions. We're talking chemical addiction, substance use, Behavioral addiction, self-harm—you know—you name it. If it's maladaptive, you're welcome here. You know, and one of the things that you know it comes up often in my group because of where my meeting is in the village and the West West Village of New York. You know, chemsex comes up in a bunch about that stuff. And so, you know, in smart recovery, that ambivalence is embraced. You know, we we talk about it. We have the open conversations about this, and we get to hear different perspectives from different people. Not Mm-hmm. And that there's a really big, powerful moment for that, you know? And then on top of that all, we use these tools, you know, physical tools. And, you know, depending on the facilitator, each facilitator is different. You know, you might— I use flip charts and we use the worksheets that are accessible free on the website. And you don't just need the handbook for that. So we use all these different tools to, you know, explore that ambivalence that we have to come to that answers that question. the individual wants to come up for themselves. We're not giving the answers. We're facilitating a meeting where your answer comes to yourself through this conversation, through this exploration of who you are, what you're dealing with, and hearing from other people, their perspectives. It's not advice giving. It's conversation.

Yeah. So crosstalk So if I, how do you then, I guess, when you're facilitating a meeting, if I, if I'm there for chemsex, there's a lot of topics that are taboo that I'm probably going to want to talk about. What, how do you ensure that the environment is safe if you have a mixture of different people and different—

Yeah, can I take that one? First of all, I don't love the word safe space. We say supportive space most of the time because Control what Dallas is gonna share at the meeting. Dallas might say something

that

triggers the hell out of everybody.

So true. Yeah.

Yeah.

Something that's very important to know about SMART Recovery is that our facilitators are trained. They are not therapists, although some are or will be soon. Uh, but their role in the SMART Recovery meeting is to guide the conversation and keep us on track.

Okay.

So they're trained that at every meeting, it's advised to read the meeting opening and that meeting opening says, You know, we talk about the recent past and the near future. And when someone says something taboo, which really nothing is taboo that's smart, but you might get a little redirect. So Dallas, if you said, you know, I, well, I listened to your podcast yesterday. I used the app. I didn't put the phone in the other room. It was in my bedroom and I went on Snapchat and I had a laugh. Totally fine. If you were to say, uh, you know, I'm, I'm gonna be— you— we talk graphic on this podcast, right?

Oh yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You came over and chopped the shoulder off of a mass and, and it set me off on a 3-day bender. We're gonna say, ooh, be careful with your language cuz what you say might trigger other camsec folks in the room. Right?

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. The same way I wouldn't let someone— I would, I would interrupt someone saying, um, You know, I was at a friend's house and there was a bottle of vodka in the freezer and it was dripping with condensation and I just wanted to take it. I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. So you wanted to drink yesterday, right?

Right.

So we just wanted to make it a supportive space, as safe as we can.

Supportive space.

Free of trigger. It's not to say, you know, you can't do it. It's just that we're mindful of everybody in the room and what they might be working on. And so we just try to keep it safe that way. And the training helps. The training helps the facilitator to learn how to gently redirect and ask for it. Yeah.

So I think that's a huge point here is that you have a trained facilitator at the meetings, not just any old Joe, right? Old timer or whatever at the meeting, right?

Yeah. And even with that, every meeting is going to have, Zach said this, it's going to have its own vibe, its own feel.

Sure.

There might even be some facilitators out there who haven't yet had the new training and they might mention abstinence as the The thing that, that's, we're working on that. We've got 1,800 facilitators to train, but, uh, for the most part, um, they're gonna, I forget what I was gonna say, but, uh, oh, that's what we say. Like in the opening we say, you know, SMART Recovery isn't for everyone, but if this meeting didn't resonate with you tonight or today, we suggest trying 5 meetings before you make up your mind because every meeting's different. Like,

yeah.

Uh, you know, we acknowledge that and we say it out loud. Every facilitator is different. You know, I know people who've gone to one meeting and said that was bullshit, right? They just hit it on a bad night. So we encourage people to try 5 meetings, 5 different meetings. Even this meeting, my Wednesday meeting, one week can be a laugh riot. The next week can be dullsville because people don't have to. So that's, that's a big deal for us.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love it. And you have specific LGBTQ meetings too?

We do.

Yeah, because you said you run one. Yeah,

I do run one in Durham and it's a great little group. I love, I love my Wednesday night group. It's our Wednesday night group. I should watch my language. And, you know, I have folks who are working through Chemsex, not a regular right now, but people have been in and In my group, we put chemsex right in the introduction, right? Like, whatever your addiction is, chemsex, opioids, alcohol, you're welcome here.

Yeah, yeah, love it.

Because I'd like all LGBTQ meetings to do that. Many of them are.

Yeah. So you mentioned on the website, a handbook, it's encouraged. And again, we have to look at the language. Encouraged, but not required, right?

Right. Correct. Correct. All the worksheets, all the handouts that we have are available free on the website. The tools, all of them are available.

Okay.

And if, I know in my meeting, it's in person, if I'm going to have a tool tonight, I plan to presenting a tool, I'll have copies printed out for the folks who don't have a book.

Okay.

And also some facilitators will. You know, we take collection at the end of the meeting. I'll use some of that money to buy books so we can give them to people who support them. The book was helpful to me, but that doesn't mean it's gonna be helpful to everyone.

Right. So you allow people to use whatever literature they, that works for them?

Yeah.

I would, yes. Right. Okay.

Yeah. There, there is no literature requirement for this. We have our own literature that we use. You know, I have Am I Addicted up here. I have the facilitator handbook. I have the handbook. You know, I also, we also have friends and family. Um, as well. So there, there's a bunch of different literature, but none of it is required at all.

Okay. Yeah. And I noticed there's a, on the website, there's also a no religious content is. So how do you, yeah. What is that about? You, I just leave out a higher power altogether?

No. If your higher power works for you, bring it to the SMART meeting. That's awesome. But we're a secular organization. So there's nothing baked into our program that is religious. There's certainly some meditation practices and stuff like that, but a lot of people have faith as part of their toolkit, and that's great. You can talk about it at the meeting, that's great, but we don't tell other people what to do. Yeah. So yeah, it's a secular program and there's nothing religious about the actual 4 points, which we could talk briefly about the 4 points.

Yeah. Yeah. Let's do that. Let's do that.

I hope cats are allowed on your podcast.

Not a lot of pussy on the podcast.

And dogs.

And dogs.

Yeah.

Well, Gizmo.

Yeah. Gizmo.

Yep. Uh, so do you want to talk about the 4 points, Zach, or do you want to? Yeah.

Yeah. So, so, um, the 4 points, you know, we, we, we, it's our, that's, this is the basis of SMART Recovery. You know, there's, It starts with maintaining, building and maintaining motivation. Oh gosh, put on the spot.

Coping with urges and cravings.

Coping with urges and cravings, managing thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, and then building a balanced life. And these, all our tools are based on those, you know, in the handbook, the chapters are based around that. And so these are the foundations of SMART Recovery. This is like the pillars that we're built upon. And so these are the things that we talk about in every single meeting, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And it comes up indirectly, you know, we don't have to intentionally talk about it, but it is, these are staples of recovery. We've just worded it, you know? Mm-hmm. We, they might call it something different in, in a different program, in a different rehab and stuff like that. But this is how we worded it. And this is pretty much common belief throughout the whole recovery community. Mm-hmm. You know? So these are, these are our pillars.

Okay, great. So when you say maintaining motivation, can you explain that a little bit? Whoever wants to answer.

Yeah. So, so with, with, so it's building and maintaining motivation. So motivation is hard. You have motivation when you have it and you don't have it when you don't have it. You know, you never know when it's going to hit or what. So, so we want to build, we want to give you the tools. We want to provide the tools. We want to teach the tools that will help you Identify that motivation, why you have this motivation, what you need this motivation for. And not just that, 'cause it's great to see that, you know, oh, I have motivation right now, but how are you gonna maintain it? You know, so, so we, we, we use tools to help you not just identify your motivation to stay to, to re— to recovery, but, you know, we also want you to have the tools useful that will help you maintain that throughout your recovery journey. Because motivation fluctuates. You know, one day, one day it'll be up here and then 20 minutes later it's gonna be all the way down here. You know, you never know where it's gonna hit. It's, it's a, it's a dopamine that the, the dopamine, you know, they say it's the happy molecule. No, it's not. It's the motivation molecule. And so, you know, we try to teach these lessons, these skills to be able to help just maintain that throughout your whole recovery journey.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. What were you gonna say, Gus?

I was gonna say, like, for me personally, just what this might look like for a participant is when I went to my first SMART meeting, the facilitator, hey Mo, if you're watching, he said, you know, well, Gus, why do you drink? And I said, at the time I was drinking, I said, because I'm an alcoholic, that's what we do. She's like, no, Gus, What do you love about it? And I'm like, what? And she's like, I'm like, I love that it helps me deal with my feelings. I love that it helps me escape. I love that it loosens me up. And she's like, yeah, you wouldn't be doing it if it didn't give you some benefits. Right.

Right.

So she was, she was bringing up a cost benefit analysis, which SMART did not invent, but that we, we put in our handbook as a helpful tool to help people understand. All right. Well, guess what's it costing you? Well, my husband wants to kick me out. My job just is about to hire— fire me, you know, all of that. So you weigh the cost-benefit. So, but no one had ever said to me, not my therapist, not, not my husband, like they asked why you drink in a mean way. No one said, what do you love about it? What are the benefits? You wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't bringing you something. And the true, true merit, when I look back, it's like,

yeah, it

made me feel sexy. It made me feel popular. It made me feel like I could be friends. I could go into strange places without being afraid. Those were great things for me at that time. I needed those things at the time. It served me for a long time until it didn't. Right. So, uh, that's, that's like, what's your why? And, and, and we encourage people to like, don't just, you know, my, one of my favorite tools is just defining your values. It's so simple. What's most important to you? And when we encourage people to think of 5 and like, okay, when you choose Kenesaw over those 5 things, Those 5 things lose their importance. That's the most important thing. That's a hard truth. But next time I feel triggered, if I've got that on my phone under values and I click it, I literally did this. Oh, right. I value honesty. I value my family. It might just be the thing that gives you space to rethink, you know, going on the app or doing the thing.

Yeah. I like that. Yeah. I heard somebody say like, Well, they didn't say meth, but I put meth in there. Meth wasn't the problem, it was the solution.

Yes, 100%.

Right.

Right.

I mean, Zach's story is a great example of that, right? Like literally, if I don't do this drug, I won't have a place to sleep tonight. Like,

yeah,

that's a big motivator. Like that's a benefit. Didn't all work out.

It's, it's what kept me going for longer than I even wanted to, you know?

Yeah.

Just because the situation that I found myself at the time. being unhoused, you know, I had to do things I didn't want to do. I didn't wanna do it. As, as, you know, as addiction takes over your body and everything, you know, there's times that you don't want to do this still. But I was forced, I felt forced to have to do that in order to, you know, even eat, you know, because mind you, this was in Florida. The, the benefits in Florida don't exist for people.

Wow.

You know, I got HIV in Florida. There was no resources for me. I was lucky enough to have ADAP to cover for the, the rehab, to cover for my medications, but that's all they did. They didn't care. They could care less that you're on the streets, you know? So I had to take care of myself, which, you know, I was resourceful enough, but not everybody is.

That's right.

You know, that's

right. Yeah. Yeah. I have, I could tell, you know, we can get into the stories, but yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things I did to have a place to stay, some food that I'm not real proud of, you know? Um, but yeah, going back to motivation, To building and maintaining motivation. And I think it really ties into something that we've talked about here, and that's your why. You know, the thing is, a lot of people, I think, are sitting in meetings and they're in recovery because they think they have to. Like, you know, this is just what I have to do, which to me isn't a strong enough heartfelt why to drive and fuel them through all, through the urges, through the cravings, through the long term. You know, if you're just quitting because, well, logically I'm not supposed to do meth or I'm gonna lose my job or I'm gonna lose my partner, I don't think that that's strong enough. If it's like, this is like, if it's here, like, this is not my identity anymore. And like you said, Gus, like, here are my values and this is what I believe in. This is what I'm gonna stick to. Doing meth goes away because it does. It goes against who I am as an individual.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that is just, you have me thinking about my own, my own, my own relationship with chem, chemsex. Uh, it, it, it took me, like, I did have psychosis. I did have, I did stay with people because I couldn't go home. I was locked outta my house. Well, what am I gonna do? Just, just get on the phone line and find somewhere to go. Um, uh, I can remember some very dark things. And those things are what I like to call, and it's not really in our training, but a lot of us talk about it, external motivations. Those will get you in the door. Those will get you your first few days. Those will get you to think about your goals. But the external motivations, sleeping, full stop, sleeping is a benefit of not using meth. Right. You know, I lost a shit ton of weight Um, I'm gain— you know, I've gained it back, but, uh, at first it was a benefit, then it was a cost because people at work were like, are you sick? Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So,

uh, the DUIs, all of that, external motivators, sleeping, feeling trusted, uh, being able to look in the mirror, you know, being able to talk to my niece anytime I want because I'm not high.

Those

are the things that will keep me motivated. So building motivation and maintaining motivation.

Yeah.

It's when those internal motivators kick in.

Mm-hmm.

And yeah, you can think about what they might be before they actually mean that to you.

Mm-hmm.

And watch for them. Right. So it's, it's, it's really, it's, to me, it was really interesting. Like, like Zach said, uh, I, I somehow I didn't understand the word ambivalence until I got into SMART Recovery.

Yeah. Yeah. Same.

It's like, I wanna stop and I don't wanna stop. Both of those things can be true at the same time. That's right. It's not an all or nothing game. This is not an all or nothing journey for most people. That's right. That's Dallas. When I listen to your podcast, my heart swells because you're, you're, you're, we're so aligned with harm reduction. Try reducing, see if it works for you. It could. There's research that it might work. If it doesn't, be honest about it. We'll explore that, right? You talk about, you just, you just are so in line with SMART Recovery. It's amazing it took us this long to connect because—

I know.

I just, I just, every time I look, you're, you're I was listening yesterday to the one about the excuse versus reason.

Oh yeah.

Right? So Smart Recovery, but we don't have a tool on it. I'm like, ooh, Dallas, maybe you'll let me adapt this for a tool for Smart Recovery because it was so spot on.

Yeah.

It's like, and if, if you know what I might add to that is like, it's okay if you're still making excuses, don't give up. Sure. But think about that lapse. Think about what caused it. Think about the situation and don't just blame yourself for it. Like, oh, that's who I am. I'm a tweaker. I'm this, I'm that. But like, oh, I made a mistake and I can do better next time. And owning that. That was beautiful. If you haven't heard it, people go listen to it. And I love that you give study guides. Like, you're just so smart aligned. It's beautiful. Yeah.

See what's, what's, I was just going to say what's, what's, what's really cool though, is so many people in recovery are smart aligned. They just don't realize Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, like, like we tabled, you know, in Smart Recovery NYC, I have 5 in-person meetings for almost 9 million people.

Wow.

You know, in the state of New— in, in this city of New York City, all 5 boroughs, you know? And so we tabled at Brooklyn Pride this year for the first time. Most people don't know about Smart Recovery. Yeah. Yeah. Even in the, the, the country's largest city, you know? So But they, they're already practicing it. You know, they're already practicing these things if they're in recovery. You know, if you're doing therapy and stuff like that, straight up from there, it's CBT, REBT, motivational interviewing. You know, this is the foundations on top of the 4 points, you know?

Right, right. That's right. I really think, you know, I really think if you're listening, like, what a, what a release for you And what a credentialed place to be as well, to come to this program and to, to stop being told what you can and can't do without question. Right.

Right.

And so you're, you're talking about what I think is so important is experiential learning. So, you know, I have a, I have a, I have a, um, another carousel coming out that's about poppers. You know, it's like, I, I, I sniffed poppers. Did I relapse? Right. And that's not the question. The question is, are poppers problematic for me or are they not?

Right.

Right. That's the question.

So true. Yep.

But we have, but we have people making up these rules. You may not do poppers or you have to start your days over.

Yeah,

exactly. The whole being told what to do, you know, and, and, you know, I'm a big believer of like self-empowerment. And that's a huge part of SMART Recovery. And so, you know, having that, you know, being told to do something is, is great for some people, but not most people. Most people need to find that power within themselves.

That's right.

And that's part of SMART Recovery. All those points, the 4 points are meant to build up that self-empowerment ability for them to be able to make these decisions on their own for themselves and for their own good.

Great.

I think about the, like what I heard when I first got sober when I was a kid, it was like, you can't think yourself out of this. You have to, you have to, whatever it was. I don't remember the other option, but I, what I can say, you can think yourself out of this. Like that's what we do at SMART. We change our thinking and it changes our lives. And so,

you

know, we don't, maybe we could do a series where we talk about each point, but the biggest thing for me where my life changed through SMART Recovery is learning how to challenge my unhelpful thoughts, which again is—

Yeah.

classic cognitive behavioral therapy, but something I didn't learn and I didn't have that skill. So with ACT, I can, I get that space between my trigger and my use. And in that space, I can challenge my unhelpful thought. I can think about what to do instead. I can remember that Zach said I could text him anytime. And, you know, the longer I can make that wedge between my thought and my use, the The better the odds are that I'm going to be okay. So that's where, that's where all, you know, all the, they're not steps. It's not a staircase. It's, it's, it's just a menu of things that you can try at different times. They do. I don't know if you talked about the stages of change on your podcast before.

I haven't actually.

Okay. But it's, I won't get into it now. It's a good idea. If I'm in the action stage, if I'm thinking about changing, That's a really important time. And I want to say this loud, like, I want to say this loud and clear. Like, when you're in that moment and you're looking for change, maybe your best bet is to talk to Dallas and you guys get along great and he becomes someone who supports you and that works for you. That's great. Or maybe you go to a CMA meeting and you click and you make friends for the first time and it works for you. Awesome. Whatever works for you, because the research strongly suggests That there's no one program that's better than the other. It's, it's generally about the same success rate, but what matters is you picked it, you like it, and you engage with it.

Yeah.

So all those people who are like, I tried 12-step and it just didn't work for me, they were right. They're not in denial. They're not assholes. They're just, it didn't work for them because it's not their thing. So find the thing that works for you. Check it all out. You know, check out A Smart Meeting. Talk to Dallas, go to Zach's meetings, but, but make it your choice. And that's what SMART is all about. On our website, you know, here's other pathways. Here's LifeRing. Here's Celebrate Recovery. Here's Dharma Recovery.

Try them all out. So, soapbox. No, but they're, but people are browbeaten with it works if you work it, meaning you're the problem.

Yes, 100%. It makes me so mad. That, that makes me very mad. I had a young woman who came to the meeting and she walked out of a bar after ordering a drink, sitting down at the bar, and, uh, the— she turned around and walked out. And she came to our meeting because when she told her sponsor that story, her sponsor said, your higher power really loves you. And I said, fuck your sponsor. Sorry, I usually don't talk shit about AA, but I'm like, fuck your sponsor. You did that. You made that drink.

Right.

You got off that bar stool and you walked out the door and you came to this Smart Recovery meeting. So give yourself some credit, you know?

Yep. Mm-hmm. That's right. That's right.

So many people come to SMART Recovery and find their power.

Yes.

Yeah. And find their power, their higher power.

Someone said, how long have you been sober? Their power.

Their power.

Yeah. Gus, how long have you been sober? Well, it'll be, it'll be 3 months, Gus willing, tomorrow. Right. But it's, that's empowering to me.

I love that.

Only I can do Only I can mess this up. I'm the only one.

Yeah.

And I deserve to quit it.

That's right. Yeah. I, I have a whole video called You, You Are Your Higher Power.

Yeah.

I love it.

Because people are told anything can be your higher power, even this, even this remote, except you, except yourself.

Right.

So, but you know, here's the thing. It's like when, when you relapse, it's your fault. When you meet a milestone of recovery, it's higher power's fault. Higher power gets the credit.

Right.

Right. Yeah. Right. And it's so—

It's like Emmy's acceptance speech.

Right.

I'd like to thank God. I'm like, I, I start with thanking myself.

Yeah.

I remind myself, I, like, I did so much work to get where I am today. That's right. 3 years and 8 months after getting sober, I've done so much work to get here. I've went through, I get, I used to be fat my whole life. I lost all of it because of meth, gained it all back in 6 months after I got sober, plus 5 pounds. The work I've done to not have that again has been so much work and it's been such a big part of my recovery journey, but I did that work.

Yeah. Yeah. You did it. That's right.

Yeah.

Yay. Yay. I love it. Oh, I love this. We could talk for hours, I think. Um, so the, the other, the other pillars, the one is, uh, coping with urges and cravings. So I was going to ask about that in terms of, Chemsex urges and cravings are a bit different, but do, do you, do you have like a sponsor type program in SMART at all? Or do you have anyone you kind of mentor or anything like that?

Zach, can you take this one first?

So, so we don't. Um, so that, that, that is something that we don't, you know, like I said, you know, with, with, uh, in 12-step that you have a sponsor, which usually the requirement is a year of sobriety.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and that's, uh, that's really it. You know, here we have facilitators and, uh, right now it, when I did facilitator training, it was 30 hours of training and now it's 15 hours if I remember correctly. 5. Which is great.

5 or 6.

5, right. Which is, makes it far more accessible, you know, to people that didn't wanna do 30 hours of it, which was a big reason why people didn't do that, you know? But so we don't have the sponsors, we don't have a buddy system. And I mean, I'm not talking smack about SMART Recovery at all, but I feel like that is something that's missing because we don't, You know, what's really great that I got sober in the 12-step community is that exact word, community.

Yeah.

And that's, that's something that's actually missing within the SMART recovery world, you know? And I thought it was just, you know, SMART Recovery NYC because in New York City, you don't even know your neighbors, you know? You may live with, you know, 8 million people, but you don't know anybody usually. And so, but I'm learning it's actually a bigger problem within SMART recovery. And so, you know, What we're doing right— what we're doing in New York City right now is trying to bring in some of that stuff. We just had this really big barbecue, Smart Recovery NYC, big appreciation and, uh, volunteer appreciation barbecue last weekend. You know, 50 people showed up, which is more than people, you know, our meetings aren't a CMA meeting, aren't an NA meeting with, you know, 40, 60. There's a CMA meeting on Fridays in Midtown that's 100 people. That's not a Smart Recovery meeting. Right. You know, last, my meeting on Tuesday, biggest meeting I've had, 15 people, you know, because you, it's really hard to manage that. It's really hard to do that with crosstalk stuff with 100 people. It's not possible, honestly. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so, so, you know, one thing that I, I'm working on is building that community of it. Mm-hmm. You know, making those friendships, building those connections between each other. We've created a WhatsApp group, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're We're, we're doing it, you know, and I'm not the only one. These things are actually being, you know, I've learned how to do some of this stuff from the conference in April in Orlando, you know, so, so for, for SMART Recovery. So it, it's, there, there's, there's no structure for that, but it's, it's something that is missing right now, you know?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And, and I agree with, I agree with Zach. This is, this is like, uh, this is an issue because it affects meeting growth.

Yeah.

It affects, because what's happening, Dallas, is people are coming and they're getting better. They actually get better. And then they're like, I don't need the meeting anymore. And we don't do a good enough job at SMART Recovery and we're working on it. But Zach is 100% right. We don't do a good enough job. That fellowship in AA is so great. I mean, I love it. I've been in AA. I love the fellowship. I love it. If I could only do the fellowship, but SMART, it's like, we need to do a better job of, we don't have a buddy system, but I have always made my best friends in SMART Recovery. And I remember, I don't know if there's any Tales of the City fans in the house, but Mona used to say, I don't need a partner. I just need 5 good friends. Wow. I co-opted that to say, I don't need a sponsor. I just need 5 good friends. And we take self-empowerment very seriously. And yet in my meeting, Zach, I changed the opening where we say we don't have a sponsorship or buddy system, but the next thing says, that said, many people in this group find connection that's meaningful and helps them in their journey. So we encourage you to connect with each other outside the group. They created a Signal group. It's very active. It's completely participant-driven. I don't, I keep an eye on it, but I try to stay out of it. So we're looking at ways to do this. And that tradition of service in AA was probably one of their smartest moves because it does. Yeah. And I'm saying that as a positive, like it keeps you in it if you want to, and it gives you things to do and you wanna start your own meeting and you wanna go to the barbecues, you wanna go to the roundups, you wanna, you know, I love that as a young person in AA, I loved all that stuff.

Yeah.

So that's right. We have to, we have to get better at that.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you, you, you will, you will get there. I am—

We will. I'm confident we will.

Yeah. I, that's the thing about with, with my clients, I'll tell them like, look, the goal is for you to just be living a life like a quote unquote normie, right? Like to go on vacation, to stay in a hotel and not be scared that you're going to fucking relapse.

Right.

You know, and that your Chemsex experience informs who you are, but it isn't at the forefront anymore. You know, you, you trust yourself in a way that you're just living your life.

Right.

You don't have to be at a meeting for the rest of your life unless you— and again, I think it is the fellowship.

Unless you want to. Yeah.

Right. I think it is the fellowship that you keep going, you know, because it is hard, I'm sure, and especially in New York City to find If you're a gay man and you're newly sober, to find other sober gay men, it probably, it has to be a challenge. And that's the one place you could, you know, you will find that. So.

Well, see, I will say, you know, like I said, that, that CMA meeting on, on Friday nights in Midtown Times Square area, 100, 100 gay men, you know? Yeah. A few trans people and stuff like that.

Yeah.

But you know, that's where the community is. There's a reason why there's, they're not there just for that meeting. They're there for the fellowship. They're there for the food. They're there for the meeting after the meeting, you know? And that's great. And I'm so grateful that I was able to get sober through that community so I can bring what I learned from that side of it into SMART Recovery.

Mm-hmm.

Because the NYCMA crew is huge. They do— every week they have a different— they go to movies. They're going— they're doing so much. They're going to Jacob Riis Beach, the people's queer beach here. You know, they're doing so much stuff. You know, but at the same time, you know, this is probably, I feel like, where part of the disconnection is. You know, it comes down to money a lot of the times. Wow. And SMART Recovery doesn't get that money in from our participants like the 12-step community does, you know? And so we can't do as much, you know? CMA gets a bunch of money in because that's how they're trained to do, you know? And so we're, you know, that's one of our pitfalls there. That we don't have the money to be able to do these things, but we're finding ways to do it still because we're still resourceful. We're resourceful people.

Love it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Love it. It's all true and we're working on it and your listeners can be a part of it if they want to be.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Can I say one last thing, Dallas, that I love about you? Your conversation about instead of like The, you, you had that one standalone podcast, The Shame of Zero, I think you called it.

Mm-hmm.

Um, day one or something. Yeah. Um, SMART is right on board with you on that. Like, uh, I have, I, I have this analogy that I learned in my first treatment, which is, um, like if you have a, you know, I, I suffered from that like reset button. I hate that.

Yes.

Uh, it didn't work for me. Now when I had a lot of days, it worked great, but getting there was really hard. So we tell at my meeting, we tell people, When they've had a lapse. Like if you, if you put a marble in a fishbowl, uh, every day you don't use, right? You, uh, and you put it in, you put it in, you put it in, you'll see the fishbowl filling up. And then if you relapse, you absolutely do not pour out the fishbowl because you don't unlearn what you learned at the meetings. You don't lose all the friends you made in your sobriety. You don't—

Right.

You learn so much. You don't unlearn that stuff. Maybe you don't put a, uh, you know, you don't put a marble in that fishbowl that day, but you'll put one in tomorrow and it will continue to grow. And I feel like that is very much like, you're like, forget that you got high yesterday. How, how many times have you chemsexed like in the last 100 days? 3? Holy shit. That's amazing.

Right.

And I, I say the same thing to my, my participants. Like, wait, let me get this straight. You were drink— you were drinking, you were doing drugs, you were smoking every day. And now you've smoked twice this month, right? That's pretty good. That's the kind of win we celebrate.

Yeah.

And so I love, that's another way we're aligned very closely on that.

Yeah. I mean, I think I, you know, it's, so there's a, I don't know if you watch Dr. Nicole Labor, she's on, she's on Instagram and all the social medias. She's a doctor. She's an addiction. She's in recovery and addiction doctor. Anyway, she talks about that. The brain does like streaks, like, you know, streaks of days and all that kind of stuff. And it is motivating. But the thing is, is just how that those streaks are used, just like you're saying. I mean, you know, you just, you can't lose time unless you have access to some type of time machine.

Right.

You know, is that you can't lose time. I've just, it, it, I just see all over social media, like I had 2 years and I used last month and now I'm at 30 days and, you know, the, just the sorrow and the shame and the, just the demoralization. Like, in 2 years you've used one time,

right?

That's a miracle, especially when you're talking about crystal meth.

Yeah. Hell yeah.

Right. Because so much with the crystal meth doesn't just come— the crystal meth comes the chemsex of it all, right? The chaos addiction. You know, my biggest addiction that I missed afterwards, because I got— I became celibate before I quit the meth. The sex was so traumatic. at the end that I'd stop that first. Oh. You know, if it wasn't me stopping the sex, I probably would never stop the meth. But, you know, the thing that I missed the most, the void that was not able to be filled, was the chaos. You know, being unhoused, you never know what's gonna happen. And that was exciting, you know? And so that really finding that void to fill, you know, the free time of it all with the chemsex equation of this all, that void of the chaos is something that we have to fill too.

Yeah.

Yeah. But, but really quick about this analogy stuff, you know, about the, you know, in New York City, we like to make an analogy about, you know, you're on your recovery journey, you're driving from New York City to LA, and as you're driving, you break down in Kansas City, your car. You don't get back in your car and drive all the way back to New York City to repair your car. You fix it there and keep your— keep going.

Yeah.

You know, so, so with that analogy, you know, everything that you've learned in those years, those days, those months, whatever it is, To get to that point when you had your lapse is still there. It's not gone. It's still right here where it has been at the whole time. So don't— you don't need to start over. The process of starting over is not that, you know, it's this, this day count stuff. As great as it is for some people, it's also detrimental for many more.

Yes, it is.

Especially because that's the shame cycle.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Especially for gay men who are already, yeah, already covered in shame.

Yep.

You know? Right, right.

The Velvet Rage Dialogues. I created an entire group based off the Velvet Rage. So, so I know. Yeah, exactly. That the shame, the guilt, it's, it's horrible.

Yeah. Yes.

And you know, at SMART meetings, there's another benefit to not shaming people when they relapse. If, if Zach relapses and comes in. and talks about it. I learned from Zach. I, I like his story can help me avoid whatever happened to him. And maybe I was through that and I can share what I did and he can say, oh, maybe I'll try that next time. Right? Like it's, it's, it's just, uh, to me, it just makes sense. That just, when I got to SmartCoder, I'm like, this makes sense. This is how people live. And, uh, right. I, I love that.

Exactly.

It's, you know, that, that no sponsor thing, that's all rooted in this like super belief that you are, you are the one on your journey, self-empowered.

Right.

Yeah.

You're your own sponsor.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm different.

Right. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with having an accountability buddy.

Right.

Right.

No, not at all. They're, they're, that's what they call each other, accountability buddy. And they, they are, they are always helping each other out, which is great.

Yeah. And Gus, you had mentioned that you have, you're gonna have a special offer for our listeners.

I am. So as we've been talking about SMART Recovery, we do have trained facilitators and the training has just about everything you need to know about SMART. And I would love if anyone who's listening to this would like to take the training. We're gonna have a code for free, no credit card needed. They'll, they will just have to create an account. But there's no pressure. There's no expectation that you're gonna start a meeting. I just want them to know about this option and be able to talk to their friends, talk to your therapist, talk to your doctors about SMART Recovery. So yeah, take the training. If you like it, great. You know, if down the road you think, hey, you know, I could start one of these SMART Recovery meetings, that wasn't so bad, we would love it because Like I said, preparing for this podcast, I was shocked because I don't manage the meeting side of things. It's mostly training. There's only 30-something LGBTQ meetings and about half of them are online. Hmm. I'm going to be in Charlotte tomorrow handing out codes for folks there because it's such a big city. No LGBTQ meetings. There are SMART meetings in Charlotte, but no LGBTQ. And you can go to any meeting. But you're gonna frankly, like if you talk about chemsex at a meeting, you know, you might have to be in that uncomfortable position to, to educate the group and that's not fair. So, right, I'm doing my part to make sure everyone knows what chemsex is. Zach is doing his part. Uh, he did a presentation for us, which we'll share with you guys too. Um, but yeah, it'll be on the, on the show notes and, and, uh, I would love it if they, if they take it and wanna give me feedback. Zach mentioned the— it took me 50 hours to go through the training. And I don't think our founders will ever listen to this podcast, but it was videos of meetings full of white guys, older white guys. It was painful, that training. And I said, one day I want to fix that training. And lo and behold, the miracle of recovery.

And there you did it.

So when you take that training, you're going to see brown people, you're going to see gay people, you're going to see trans people, you're going to see Muslim people. So I would love to hear their feedback on that. 'Cause this will be my last thing, Dallas. SMART evolves with the data.

Yeah. Can you hear me? Evidence-based, right?

Evidence-based. And like I said, we were for a long time abstinence-based and we were abstinence-informed. Now we're harm reduction and make your own goal, meet people where they are. Because the evidence, as you point out often on the show, is saying that works and it works well and it lowers the barrier for people to try their first meeting and recovery is contagious. Like,

yeah,

when people come to SMART, you know, some people are like, oh no, if I have people with different goals, everyone will start doing chemsex once a week. And I'm like, dude, if anything, the people who are doing chemsex once a week will see the people who aren't doing chemsex and be like, hmm, that looks interesting. So while I approve of someone doing chemsex once a week if that's their goal. And it's—

Right.

It's manageable. Right. It's not gonna, it's not, people, you just don't catch relapse. You just don't. I, there's no evidence that that happens. And it's kind of new to have people in groups. There's really not a lot of research of what it looks like to have different goals in the same group. We're kind of the first, but we'll see how it goes. I think so far anecdotally, people are loving it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Thank you. Well, we could talk for another hour because we didn't really get through the 4 pillars I wanted to get

to. For sure.

We could have a series on that for sure. I would love it.

I would love it.

Yeah. No, I think so. Um, well, thank you gentlemen for this. It was really interesting for me and exciting. And I hope that you're listening that you got excited to— that this is an alternative for you. So many of you are messaging me, I've tried this and I've tried that, and you think that that's your only option. And there are so many others. And this is a place where I think a lot of you would feel comfortable. Gus, Zach, did I miss anything today that you wish we'd have gone over? A main point or something that you wanted to get across today? No, I think—

I mean, the, the 4 points were mentioned, so, so, you know, do, do, do your own research into the rest of them, you know, cuz there's building and maintain, uh, there's building, maintain motivation, coping with urges, managing your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors is the third one. And build, uh, uh, building, uh, maintaining balance, you know, in your life. Maintain balance. You know, not, not so, so life balance. Yeah. So, so look into all that stuff.

Yeah. Lovely.

Great.

Yeah.

I would just say, you know, try it out. You know, look, if you can look for an LGBTQ meeting, but go to any meeting, check it out if you want to. The online meetings are really low, low barrier. Um, I'm thinking if I'm triggered by Zoom screens, maybe, maybe see if you can find in-person. But, uh, yeah, I just, we really want people to know about SMART, like, like Zach and you both said. It's for many years, it's been the best kept secret in recovery support. And that's changing, but not fast enough. And, you know, our goal as an organization is 10,000 meetings by 2026. No, 2035.

Okay.

So, you know, that is what our focus is on, just getting more meetings in more towns, more cities. So if you want to be a part of that,

yeah,

reach out.

Please do. You can start your own meeting.

Start your own meeting. We'll help

you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Love it. Dallas, it's been a pleasure and your work is so amazing and so great. I, I, I feel like I've known you forever. Zach, I met Zach for the first time at our conference and, you know, like if you, if you've been into, like, if you had been into chemsex or PNP, you kind of see a kindred spirit. Like somehow it's like, yeah, I'm a little girl. Let's get together.

And,

uh, uh, Zach, I still haven't bought a summer dress. Um, you know, we talked about that at the conference. I'm like, I want to be free and dress like I feel inside. And you're like, do it. And I'm like, I need to process a little bit.

I'm wearing my version of it today.

I love that.

Dallas, great work. You just do such important work and, and I've learned so much from you. So thank you.

Thank you very much. I've learned a lot today and I appreciate you too tremendously.

Awesome.

You're giving hope. You're giving hope to a lot of people. And I really appreciate that.

That's sweet. Thank you.

Yeah.

That means a lot.

Thanks, Dallas.

Great. And guys, you can join in the conversation if you'd like. You can comment on Spotify, you can comment on YouTube, you can DM one of us. We're going to put our contact information in the show notes, or you can just contact me on social media. And I'd love to hear from you what you thought about the episode and what you'd like to see, what you'd like to hear more of. And if you want us to take a deeper dive in the SMART, we can do, we can do part 2. All right, thank you guys. We'll see you next week.

Thank you. Thanks, Dallas.