The 4 Things That Make an Offer Easy to Sell

Well, I'll put it like this. Any offer that works on cold email will 100% of the time work on ads, but not every offer that will work on ads will work on cold email. Any offer that works on content may not work on ads, may not work on cold email. It's about understanding like the medium that you're using. So there's only 3 ways to get clients in existence. You have content or organic. So like referrals would fall under that 'cause it's organic. cold outreach, which would include cold email, just cold DMs, anything like that, and then ads. There's nothing else that exists.

Yep.

It's only those 3. Any kind of strategy that anyone would ever conceive of, it's gonna fall within those 3. And then each of them, they have a different cost to them. You always gotta expend time or money in some capacity. So cold outreach is low in cost, money and kind of like moderate or high in time. And then content is high in time, low in money. And then ads is low in time, high in money. And then they each scale differently. So like cold outreach will only scale linearly and then content will scale exponentially and ads will only scale linearly. So it's like you just put that all on a table and you decide, well, what resources do I have access to? Do I have a ton of time or do I have a ton of money or what combination of those 2 do I have at this moment? And that's how you pick. And now, what people kind of screw up is they think, you go to the second phase of it, which is, well, will this offer even work on that channel at all? So it's like, for instance, you could take something like Client Ascension, for instance, which is our, like, AI-assisted agency. It's like a coaching consulting thing.

Mm-hmm.

And like, that will never work on cold outreach ever. It would literally never do that at all. And even with the ads, because it's a consulting or info, It doesn't, you can't, you're not gonna just sell that to cold traffic. You would need to, what you would need to do is what a lot of people do, where it's just like wildly improbable income claims about like the result. Oh, it's passive income and you're gonna make a bajillion dollars of doing fuck all. And it's like, that's, then it would work on purely ads. But it's like, for that product, for me, for instance, it's, I'll run like educational funnels, like a free training funnel.

Mm-hmm.

lead magnets, case study funnels. And then what happens is they get into my funnel and then I push content to them. So I'm not actually converting cold traffic on that offer. I'm just taking cold traffic and turning them into warm traffic because Client Ascension/AI Assistancy is not a cold traffic offer. It just isn't.

Yeah.

But you can take something like, I know you have the thing of the 52 offers right there, but it's like, but then you could take something where it's like, If there's a performance-based lead generation offer where you do cold email for companies and you're like, and the offer's effectively just, hey, pay for the tech of the domains and the inbox and all that, and then pay me $300 per call I book, that is a cold traffic offer that will convert directly on ads. It will convert directly on cold outreach. And there's all sorts of offers where it's like, there's just so many things where people, to have something to sell and they think it'll just like sell doing anything. I just pick any marketing channel, it doesn't work like that. A lot of the things will have a literal 0% probability of working, but then you go back to that table of like, what resources do you have?

Mm-hmm.

So you might, somebody might have picked an offer and then only has access to time and not money, or like not a lot of time and not a lot of, or they need it to work very quickly. They'll be like, oh, well I'll use cold outreach, which like, that's not a cold traffic offer, so it won't work on cold outreach.

Mm-hmm.

And then they'll do something like they'll go, send DMs or hyper-personalized outreach, or they could theoretically use something on a list and it doesn't work. And they're like, oh, cold email's a scam. It's like, no, you don't understand. That offer cannot work on cold traffic. It literally can't do that. But then you go to the other spectrum and it's like, you go to this conversation, people would otherwise think, well, it's not a real business if I don't— if it's not cold traffic, if I can't convert cold traffic, which is There's something to say about that, but—

What are you optimizing for?

Yeah, like, why is content not a legitimate business then? You get what I'm saying?

Totally.

So, it's very interesting. I also feel like, broadly, if you have any kind of consulting or info or do-it-yourself offer, broadly, normally, it has to be done through content or organic most of the time. And then you look at something like, you look at Alex Hormozi, for instance, Alex Hormozi sells zero cold traffic offers. Zero. There's no— and I can go— I can explain like the different pillars of like what makes a cold traffic offer. But Alex Hormozi's entire thing is make a tremendous amount of content and all the ads he does run, the top of funnel is all educational stuff in exactly the same fashion that I just said that I do it.

Mm-hmm.

Email list, routes them to email lists, routes them to the YouTube, and he gets them watching content and then they buy a workshop. Do you think cold traffic is gonna buy a workshop from Alex Hormozi? No. Of course not. The only people who are buying workshops from him are people who know, like, and trust him. And how did he get them to that point? It's through making content. He just simply— so like, the argument then is, well, you don't necessarily need to sell a cold traffic offer. However, you do need to market the business in the fashion that makes contextual sense for it.

Mm-hmm.

So it's like, you can run a consulting business or you could sell a warm traffic offer, and not try to like do a performance thing where it's like your stuff is based on performance. And a lot of people are scared to give like guarantees and whatnot like that. And we can talk about that. But then they'll also say at the same time, well, I don't wanna make content. Which is like, okay, well then you're fucked.

What are we doing?

Yeah, you're fucked then. Well, it's like, well then make fucking $0. You know what I mean? It's like, you can't, you literally can't. Imagine all the possible things you could sell.

Yeah.

And all the possible different strategies that you could, market or do lead generation with. People think you could just like pick these out of a fucking hat and just like, oh, that's a bit— it's a very finite quantity of things that work at any given time in like any industry. So I mean, you could theoretically sell whatever, but like you're really not gonna make much. So it's a— you get— you can always see like what is working right now in specific markets. So if you, if you were to look at like the info market right now, it's like, what are one of the top performing info offers right now. One is buy a business. You ever see those?

Oh yeah, Cody Sanchez.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's a million of those people and like a lot of them make multiple millions of dollars a month, which is very interesting.

Yeah.

And then you look at other stuff like, okay, well, what else?

A lot of the real estate stuff, the real estate info offers, I think.

Like not as much anymore.

Really?

Yeah, I don't see that as much anymore. But they're like for any kind of biz op, it's AI.

Yeah. AI implementation, all that stuff.

Yeah. Well, any, any, any kind of thing like that, it's always an agency. It's always, it's always some kind of digitally rendered service that is the biz op. Because I mean, it's just a reliable business model to even do it all, you know what I mean? But people come up, people come up with like fuck-all shit that literally doesn't make any sense. Like, like, like, like trading. Like trading is the biggest fucking scam. I mean, like, yeah, there are traders, but like there are also people who are 7 feet tall.

Yeah.

And it's like, it's just random. It's, it's random chance. And it's like, yeah, I'm sure you have some— like, I'm sure you have a sense of like how a market moves a little bit, but it's like, it's, it's not a reliable, predictable way to— I mean, just like S&P 500, man. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? It's just, it's, it's retarded. It's literally—

1,000%, dude. I think it's such an important distinction between understanding like Am I running a cold, cold-friendly offer or a warm-friendly offer?

Yeah.

And just that pure understanding of like, there's certain things that are only going to work for warm.

Yeah.

And knowing what that kind of is and knowing, you know, what that is and isn't. Just such an important distinction to understand, like where to fall on the spectrum of things. I think so many people have this issue of shiny object syndrome or trying a million different things and not like sticking with one thing long enough to actually have success with it. But I think so often they fail because they don't connect the right dots. Like they're trying to do cold with a warm offer and they don't have the correct kind of foundational pieces within their offer or within their funnel in general to actually make things work.

Yeah, it's very primitive in nature when you really think about it. And I like to I like to equate this a lot with dating markets because it's very easy to understand for people. So like, what's the number one determiner of how many people you can hook up with or date or like your sexual market value? What would that be?

Is it height or money?

It's just how attractive you are generally. It's just how attractive are you? That could be assessed in all subjective or objective ways, but it's like, That's just what it is. That's what it is, yeah. So it's ultimately just attraction and like, you are attractive enough for me to want to reproduce with you. That ultimately is what it is at the end of the day. So then you look at like different kinds of offers and it's like you're ultimately selling some kind of end goal. So what I mean by that is you could, what is the purpose of a business? It's to make money.

Yeah.

It's to make money and And anything in connection or downstream or upstream of making money is what people want to purchase for their business. So it's like, if you're running some kind of agency or any form of digitally rendered service in any capacity, literally ever at all, the only thing that people are concerned with is, if I invest this, will I make money? We're talking about B2B stuff.

Yeah, 100%.

And the B2C stuff. You sell B2C stuff, it ultimately is gonna be, can I have more sex? Can I be healthier? Or can I make more money? You know what I mean? So then that overlap of the money one is just what B2B is. You get what I'm saying?

Mm-hmm.

So you get down to this and it's like, well, ultimately, the offer you're selling, what is the promise of the offer? What are you really selling? So for instance, you could take some kind of like, you ever see this stupid shit? And anyone watching this who's run any kind of marketing business or lead generation business of any kind has probably worked with some client who sells some broad, incoherent nonsense, like corporate training.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, what the fuck does that mean? What is your corporate training? It's just something dumb, or like IT management. It's like, yeah, I mean, it's like, I understand, but I understand that that's a market there, but it's not a cold, traffic offer. What is a cold traffic offer? A cold traffic offer is where it's like you look at somebody, you look at the offer, it's like, you are attractive, I wanna reproduce with you. It needs to be that viscerally straightforward, which is pretty much just, I will make you more money.

Mm-hmm.

And it's if you just stop trying to scoot around that and you just like embrace into that and like the purpose of this offer is to make people more money. And if I stop fucking around and saying anything that isn't that, it just magically starts working better. So like, for instance, one of the offers that I spoke about earlier, which is like the literal best offer of all time and has been for years at this point, it'll never stop working, is performance-based lead generation. And it's like, it doesn't matter how you generate the leads. It can be through cold email, it could be through cold DMs, you could be running ads for people, it could be your own referrals of your own network, it could be a newsletter. It literally doesn't matter the capacity of how the leads are generated. It's just you're generating a lead for somebody's offer so that they get calls booked with qualified prospects so that they can sell them their shit so that they can make more money so that the owner of the business can make more money so that the owner of the business can either get anything on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Ultimately, that's what it is.

Yeah.

Maybe just stop fucking around and thinking about anything that isn't that, like, your life just tends to be significantly easier. So it's like, and then you can go into like the pillars of cold traffic, which is new money. So it's like, is this a new opportunity that makes new money compared to, is this an optimization of a system they already have? Or is this trying to scalp money from something they already have?

Yeah.

So like, if I go to you and I'm like, I'll generate you 100 calls booked this month. You're like, oh, okay. And I guarantee that.

Yeah.

Like, and if you don't get— like, you're gonna pay— you're either gonna pay as the calls are booked, or I'm gonna give you a refund if you don't get the calls booked. And it's like, oh, okay. Well, like, yeah, that's very clear to understand, right? And then you look at other something. There's another offer. This is so funny. There's some dude who is selling this. I don't know who it was, but I encountered like 4 or 5 people who had bought this and it was like an AI CRM reactivation offer. And it's like, I heard that immediately. It's not a cold traffic offer. There's a fucking 0% probability anyone's ever gonna sell this to cold traffic. Why? Because it's—

Your leads.

It's scalping money off of something they already have. And this was interesting. I was on a— we do some live challenges sometimes and I had like 500 people on this live challenge. And I was like, and I was trying to kind of go into this where I was explaining cold traffic versus warm traffic offers. And I was using this as an example. And I was like, who in here like runs a business right now? And maybe you have a CRM with like 10,000+ people in it. Like you've been in business for a long time. And maybe like 20 people were like, oh yeah, me, me, me. I was like, if I told you I would go into your CRM and send some emails to people, and then you're gonna pay me a rev share for the amount that these people convert on, would you take that deal? Every single one of them was like, no. And I'm like, yeah, but mathematically the offer should make sense. 'Cause it's like, well, I'm guaranteeing you I'm gonna make this amount of money. What's— it doesn't matter. It's, they already have it. It needs to be new money. It's a new opportunity, something they're not already doing. So then it's another mistake of, you ever see an ad agency and they're like, how do I scrape people who already run ads? And it's like, that's not what you want. You don't want to do that. You want to get people who don't run ads.

Yep.

Because now it's a new opportunity. Why would you go to someone who already runs ads? Doesn't make any sense. Now, because you just lost all the new money. It's not new anymore. Now it's a scalped offer and it's just going to convert way less.

Totally.

It's very counterintuitive to think of. You would think, oh, there's a signal that they would— no, it doesn't work like that. Next one is done for you. So on a sliding scale of any digitally rendered service and have a sliding scale of done for you, down to coaching, down to software/info. The more you say something is done for you where they do legitimately nothing, the more appealing it will be. Another way of thinking about this, it is actually a better way of explaining it, is a concept I call logistical intensity.

Yeah, I love this.

So, see, there's 2 lead generation agencies that sell to roofers, right? You got one guy who generates leads for it. So they use Meta ads, whatever. They generate them weeds, weed forums, whatever. But when the lead is generated, the guy who owns the roofing company, he has to get— he either himself or his team has to call the leads to set the quotes and set the appointments and do that. You know, like make sure they're not like a bunch of retarded leads, which is very common in lead generation. You have to sift through them, right? So, so that's offloading the logistical intensity of that piece of the lead gen system to the client, right? What does that mean? It means that the done-for-you component is being degraded. You're offloading logistical intensity to them. Second one, same exact business model, literal same exact delivery, except the agency, you as the service provider, are calling the leads for them and just managing the quotes and doing the booking and doing all of that.

Yeah.

That person will get 99% of the business compared to the other guy, even if they are charging double or triple the amount of money. It's because what people are ultimately buying, like, it's like clients are effectively just purchasing an offloading of logistical intensity.

Mm-hmm.

So it's like, why is everyone fat? 'Cause you can't purchase being skinny. You kind of can with GLPs now, but it's like, well, that, but But this proves my point. He's like, what are you seeing? There are more people skinny being skinny now because you can purchase being skinny.

Exactly.

You know what I'm saying? So, well, you could do it before, it just took logistical intensity of going to the gym and dieting, and you had to, you had to, you had to do that. So therefore, there were a lower quantity of people who were fit. Now that you can purchase it, what you're seeing is, is exactly what I'm demonstrating here.

Exactly. And even if you look at it from the business standpoint as well, those businesses are Crushing it for that same reason.

Yeah, they are.

Yeah.

But now, what is, what is the other factor here? It's a pain in the ass to build the systems yourself to deliver the logistical intensity. So what does that mean? It means that the supply is lower. And when the supply is lower, you can charge more.

Less competition.

Yeah, exactly. So it's like the more, the more you can figure out how to take the logistical intensity and offload it from people and onload it to yourself, then you will get, you will make more money. So ultimately, like, if we go back to what we were speaking about earlier, and I was explaining how, like, with cold email, for instance, you get a bunch of domains, a bunch of inboxes, you gotta do all this. Like, that's logistical intensity. You have to say it's a giant pain in the ass. And, like, the way that these people, like, these platforms try to sell you is, like, literally deception.

Yeah.

It's, like, it's literally, like, they are in fact deceiving you 'cause it doesn't work in the way that it's advertised. It's the literal, like, literally is false advertising. ListKit just takes the logistical intensity of that—

Puts it on you.

And just offloads it from the customer. You know what I'm saying? That's—

Totally.

Absolutely. And it's like, it's actually very interesting when you look at like any kind of product, like Uber. It's so simple of just, I don't have to walk into the street and find a taxi. It's that simple of an offloading of logistical intensity. That's just, you make so much money just doing that. And it's a giant pain in the ass, but that's what a moat is. It's literally what the definition of what a moat is, is your ability to fulfill logistical intensity that others cannot. That's literally what the definition is.

I love that framing because if you think about like, so many people who are interested in like your content, for example, are younger people. Like, what do younger people have? They have fucking time. Yeah, they have time and energy. And that is a great, great way to like use logistical intensity. Like just take on that burden for yourself from these other people who don't want to deal with that shit.

Yeah.

It's a great, it's a great framing. Um, so most of the stuff that like, if we're looking here in these 52 offers, you have the majority of them, if not all of them, are B2B stuff. What's your take on B2C higher ticket stuff? Do you have—

Well, anything B2C higher ticket is ultimately gonna have to be around ensuring they can have more sex, their relationships, which that's the visceral need, or them making more money or them being healthier. You're not gonna sell anything that isn't ultimately one of those.

Do you still like one of those offers? Let's take something like health coaching, for example. Do you like a health coaching offer or do you find—

Yeah, no, it's a great business.

Yeah, you think so?

Yeah, it's a, yeah, it's a, that's a, that's a, I would actually like to be in that market.

Okay.

Yeah, it's very— like, I wish I could sell GLPs. Like, that would be— it's clearly there. Yeah, the demand is clearly there. Which is like, even fitness coaching as a concept, like, we were kind of talking about this earlier, where it's like Instagram does not— like, okay, so my stuff, for instance, sells very well on YouTube and my email list and perhaps sometimes Twitter. there's a 0% of the time it works well on Instagram. It just, it just, it just doesn't.

Cracks me up because so many people put all their time and effort into Instagram.

Yeah, it's literally just not going to work for you. And then I was actually, I was literally on a call with a guy earlier today who runs a content agency, but it's written content. It's like X, LinkedIn. He was like, dude, I've been trying to make Instagram work for me, but it won't work. I'm like, doesn't work for me either. I'm like, because he's kind of like, um, Instagram, and he was showing me a dude who's a competitor of his who also, who does very well on Instagram. And I'm like, bro, look at his profile. It's lifestyle marketing. Like, this is literally lifestyle. I bet if you took a distribution of his clients, his clients would also be lifestyle marketing type people. But his clients, the guy I was talking to, are more like sophisticated people. I'm talking like Eddie Maloof and like, you know what I mean?

100%.

Like, just more, sophisticated people. It's not like Instagram retard trading bro shit. I'm like, that's who he's selling to and that's who he's attracting on there. And then I'm like, well, dude, look at me. Like, I don't do lifestyle marketing.

Mm-hmm.

Like, I do exactly zero lifestyle marketing. Therefore, I don't do well on Instagram. I do do well being like very straightforward and logical. 'Cause that's just how I am. And I put that on YouTube and then I attract other people that are also like that. And then all of the clients I have also end up being like that. You know what I'm saying?

Absolutely understand what you're saying.

So it's always interesting too, 'cause I'll get people like pitching me Instagram stuff all the time. And it's like, dude, you don't understand, like this, it doesn't work for me. It works for other people, but I'll guarantee you these results. And I'm like, I understand that. That's exactly what you should be doing. But I just know with foresight, that it won't work and you will waste your time. Like, it just— it straight up won't. YouTube works for me. Any kind of written content works for me. And any, any kind of medium where somebody like me is consuming information— I never consume anything business-related on Instagram. Yeah, ever at all. It's, it's, it's on YouTube. That's the, that's the only place I'm gonna go.

100%. And I, I think there's maybe almost a one-to-one correlation in the sense of perceived scam and lifestyle marketing.

Yeah.

Like, in the sense of, if you lifestyle market, people assume that whatever you're doing is a scam business. And I think, like, for you, Dan Coe, like, people like that who are long-form, no lifestyle marketing at all, there's very little— I mean, I'm sure you get a million people who will say scam, but, like, on a broad consensus basis, I I don't think it just gets perceived that way at all. I think that's a huge benefit of kind of doing it the opposite way, leaning into the YouTube, the in-depth stuff.

Yeah, I mean, I feel embarrassed if I were to post a picture of some, look at my watch. You're a fucking loser, what are you doing? Or just stupid shit, like, I don't know, it's like an uncomfortable way of marketing to me. It's cringey to me.

I was talking to Riley Lamont. Do you know Riley?

Yeah.

Um, and he made a great perspective. He was like, I think most people are just still stuck in someone else's funnel in terms of like their desires.

Yeah.

And I think that's just a great way to think about things.

It is.

It's such a good, uh, just such a good perspective.

Think about what that's appealing to, like the lifestyle marketing. I mean, like ultimately that's, uh, like the, the connection there is, okay, well, if this guy's posting a Lamborghini Like, I'm imagining that he gets— like, it's like the money angle, but then it's like, well, I imagine he gets a lot of hoes too.

Yep.

So therefore I need to buy this guy's thing so I can get a bunch of money so I can also pull. That's, that's literally what the connection is ultimately. And it's like, it's, it's almost like if that's how you're sold to, and if that's how— like, it's almost like reveals like a depravity within your mind, or like to pray, like sexual depravity in your mind, because you're just like, you literally have like no Control over like, like the visceral urge. You know what I say?

One hundred percent.

It's very interesting. It's almost like a low IQ.

It's a good take. It's a good take.

Fucking retarded. If you fall, you're literally just dumb. If you know, it's so dumb that you can't even like observe that that is occurring to you, and like ultimately, like what are you like trying to get here? But as opposed to somebody who consumes like. Logical-based content. Like, unless this is clipped, there are exactly zero people who would ever hear me say that. It's all— if this podcast were never clipped, only people who agree with me would have heard that statement. But if it gets clipped, the comments inside of the short form would also be those depraved retards. You know what I'm saying? Because only the depraved retards would consume the information via that medium. Which is very interesting. So if you were to look at the distribution of comments, word on something like YouTube in the long-form video, it's like, wow, that guy's right.

Overwhelmingly positive.

Yeah, if it's on Reels, it's gonna be a fucking bunch of retards. So it's exactly what's gonna happen.

It's very interesting. Nothing exposes you to the, um, like, you, you kind of interact with the real world and you don't really perceive people as being that dumb. And then, then you get on social media, dude, and you, you post, you post a few Reels and you you see the extent of which—

Yeah, dude. Well, I mean, I'll just give you, for instance, this is actually so interesting. So, I have a low-ticket product I'm testing right now. It's like a $17 low-ticket product. And the strategy is spend a bunch of money on ads, self-liquidate it. You have a bunch of leads and a bunch of buyer leads that you can eventually upsell to your other stuff and put them in the funnel and have them consume your shit and turn them into warm traffic, right? Okay. Yeah.

In theory, incredible funnel.

Yes. All of the time I get people who are like, how do I access the product? They just bought it. They're like, how do I access this? Is this a scam? And it's like, when you purchased, you were sent to a thank you page that has a button to access the product. And then not only that, you were sent your login information. via email and via text. And now someone might make the argument, well, like, is it not sending correctly? Oh no, it is. Because I'll go into HubSpot and see that they opened the access email and they're so fucking stupid.

It's crazy.

They literally can't. And then, and then I look, is this a scam? Look, I can't access the product. And then you look at the, like, where do they come from? They came from Facebook or Instagram. But if I run YouTube ads, that does not happen.

Yep.

That's so weird. It's just like so interesting of a concept to me. It's like, what? It's just odd. So it's like the medium matters. Just strange.

Yeah, dude. I mean, I know some people, like I have some friends from high school and just even like in the business world and like the people whose perception is like a growth mindset and a, like, just a growth mindset, even if it's business related or not, they all are YouTube people, like in terms of consuming content over social media.

Yeah.

Um, it's just, it's a very interesting correlation. Um, so I got 52 of your offers here, or 52 real offers from members within, in your community.

Yeah.

I wanted to run through a few of your favorites here. So I brought you all 52, so you didn't have to—

Nice.

You didn't have to remember all of them offhand.

Yeah. Well, you know, this is interesting because, I mean, yeah, it's 52, but they all fall within only 5 business models. So it's really just like spins on like this person sells it to this person at this price instead. And it's like, well, then what determines what price you can sell something, for instance? So I have this as a lead magnet. And what happens is if you say something like, download this swipe file where I'm gonna give you the exact offers, the exact niches to sell them to, the exact pricing, and the exact way that they're getting clients, everyone thinks until they are otherwise educated, like, 'cause they would literally need to watch a podcast like this from me to understand how this all actually works. But you can't make the marketing complicated in the front end though.

Yeah.

So it's like they literally wouldn't fucking download it if I had to like explain all this first. But everyone thinks that it's like, oh, if I sell this exact offer to this exact niche at this exact price in this exact way, it's gonna work, and all 52 of these will work for me independently. It's like, oh, well, that's not actually the case, because what eventually actually happens in practice is that someone comes in and they had some offer that they were selling with a very— we didn't get to this other point when I was explaining the cold traffic offers. The other ones are low commitment and risk reversals, and we could talk about that in a minute.

Yeah, that's excellent.

But it's like, if you have— if you're just starting and you have zero case studies, it's like if I pick a random one right here where this guy sells $10,000 for a 90-day build, then retainer plus 10% rev share. And like the only way he's able to sell that is because he has case studies.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? But then it's like, well, then you have to go find the ones—

It loses the nuance.

Yeah. You find the ones— you have to start like you could sell a similar offer, but you're not going to do it for $10,000 upfront when you have zero case studies. So what do you need to do instead? You're gonna need to make a lower commitment and you're gonna need to have a risk reversal. And that's the only way that you're gonna be able to get somebody to purchase that. It's just, it's straight up, that just is how it is.

Yeah.

And then once you have case studies, you can gradually increase the price over time as you can command that price. So I remember the first agency I ever ran was an Instagram growth agency. And this is when follow/unfollow worked. So this is like 2018 or something like that. Yeah, and dude, it actually cooked. It was like hilariously well. Good for you. Yeah. Um, but you used this platform called— it's called Jarvee.

Okay.

And you could like automate the following and the unfollowing and shit, and it had all the, uh, it had all the statistics in it. And you needed their Instagram password. And I was like, how are you gonna get someone, a stranger from the internet, to give you their Instagram password? Like, let alone pay me, it's like $150. So this is like a B2C product because it's just like people want to grow their Instagram. So I'm like, there's just no way this is gonna—

Gonna work.

There's no way I'm gonna get someone to just pay me $150 a month and give me their Instagram password. I am a stranger. There's no, like, you'd have to be retarded to do that, like legitimately stupid. So I was like, well, the only way this is gonna work is if I have other people, like verifiable, active people on Instagram, where if someone were to message them, they would say, yes, this is legit. It's the only way. So I had to go find— I found 5 people to do free. The first person was someone I knew. So then I had her and I leveraged her to get the next 4 people for free.

Yeah.

And I just cold emailed people. I go on their Instagram profile, click the email button and email them and be like, hey, I'm working with this person right here and I'm looking for more clients to do it for free because I need case studies. studies to show that I'm not a random internet scammer. You can message her, you could do whatever. I had to get on calls with these people to do it for free. So then I did that, did it for free for 5 people for, uh, 3 months. And then only when I got the before and after pictures of they went from this many followers to this many followers was I able to then start cold emailing people asking for actual money. And then I got that to like, I think it was like 80 people.

Yep.

So it was, it was making like Pretty damn good amount of money. It was like $12K a month or something like that. I was like 20, you know what I mean? Like, so it was fresh out of college. That's what it took.

Yep.

That's like, that, that's what you do. And then what happened was that, that kind of got destroyed. Algorithm change screwed that up. And then, um, well, I got all the clients with cold email though, so that business literally went to zero overnight. I was like, fuck. But I got all the clients with cold email. So I was like, let me just go sell cold email as a service to other marketing agencies. And that's what I did. And then the case study was me, it was my own business.

Yeah.

And so I was like, well, here's literally all of the stats. Here's just like all the emails I sent, all the stats behind it. Here's the actual Stripe screenshots. And like, I just put this all on a landing page where I was like very just upfront, straightforward about the reality of the situation. Then you get other people where they'll lie about case studies. They'll not mention the fact that they don't have case studies. And it's like, why would you do that? That's assuming the prospect is a retard. You know what I'm saying? It's like they're not going to ask if you have any social proof. Of course they are. It's like, if you don't have any, address that upfront. Say, I don't have any case studies. Therefore, to compensate for that, I have a guarantee where I guarantee you book 25 calls a month, and if you don't, you get a refund. In fact, you actually only pay me as the calls occur. So you don't even have the possibility of losing money because you only pay me if they happen. You know what I mean? You get what I'm saying?

And then I absolutely get what you're saying.

Yeah. And then you do that as time progresses. And it's always so funny because you see, like, I remember seeing a YouTube video one time and it was, it was interesting title. It's like, what to say when a prospect asks for case studies. I was like, I would love to see this person's take because I know my take and mine is objectively Correct. And it was like, yeah, what you got to tell them is, uh, is anything in life guaranteed? I was like, you fucking— it's just like, it's like as if you're gonna objection handle your way out of this. It's the dumbest possible thing ever. It's like, well, it's, it's just dumb.

Yep.

You know what I mean? It's like, oh, I have to come up with some like sales jiu-jitsu fucking retaliation. Or you could just design reality in such a fashion to where all these variables are addressed and the deal is actually fair for the person and like it ends up working now because it's a proven way to go about it. Yeah, you know what I mean?

100%, dude. It's, uh, it reminds me of— and I'm curious your take on this. Um, so I have a really good friend of mine who, when he graduated college— this was like 2 years ago or something— um, could not get a job. First year was like just zero luck whatsoever. And during that time period, I was running my business, Labify Health, and, um, I had found this some guy from India who was running health theme pages, and each one had like 500,000+ followers, all, all, uh, completely like real followers, not fake. Um, and I was like, dude, can you run my business's Instagram and do something similar but like mainly for lab work? And he's like, yeah dude, $400 a month. I was like, let's do it, whatever. So I was having this guy run my Instagram producing— I think we were at like 125,000 followers or something at the time. And I was like, Jake, like my friend, I was like, dude, just partner with this guy. He has all the case studies. Fulfillment is cheap. The only reason this guy isn't succeeding in the marketplace is because he has the thickest Indian accent known to mankind. You partner, be the face, have him do the fulfillment. You have these incredible case studies. And then just cold email it. And that was shit. Want to call it like 12 months ago? Is that like 40k a month now doing that?

Nice.

Just same principles of like I really like that strategy of if you don't have the case studies, you know you could partner with other people. There are certain people who have these other things outside of fulfillment that are limiting limiting them from. having success in the marketplace.

Yeah, yeah. So I'll talk about the other components and then I can kind of go through some of these. But just for everyone watching, this is a reminder, there's the 4 pillars of a cold traffic offer. So we talked about the first one, which is new money.

Yep.

And then next one was logistical intensity, done for you.

Yes.

Now the next one is low commitment. So what that means is it's effectively just either the price is low or there's no long-term contracts. If something is lower in price, you're gonna get more people to buy. It's very simple. If there's no long-term contracts, you're gonna get more people to buy. It's very simple. The next is risk reversals.

Mm-hmm.

Which is arguably the most important aspect of any offer at all. And it's actually, people are so against using these for some odd reason. And it's very interesting the argument they might otherwise make. Imagine, there's some agency owner and they're selling some service. I don't know, say it's an Instagram thing.

Yep.

Again, ultimately, why would anyone buy any kind of agency service at all?

They want to make more money.

To make more money. Okay, so, um, the argument somebody makes if they don't have a risk reversal is, well, if this client gives me money and I don't get them results, I want to keep the money. It's like, oh, okay, so like the definition of a scam, right? Okay. Now it gets a little more nuanced than that, which is there are some things that are required from the client in order to get results in the first place.

Yes.

So most of the time, I don't— maybe it obviously depends on the combination of service provider and client, but a lot of the time the reason a client doesn't get a result is their own fault.

Yeah.

It's just, you either, they don't have a cold traffic offer that's possible to sell in the first place. They don't know how to close calls at all. They literally, they have zero sales process. They are functionally incapable of closing cold traffic calls. Something else is screwed up. They don't, their funnel is like—

No backend selling systems and that stuff.

It's normally, like a lot of the time, it's their own fault.

100%.

Which is funny because, Oh, you gotta imagine the difference between, uh, like a done-for-you buyer versus like someone who buys like a coaching program or like a consulting program. So who buys a coaching or consulting program? The answer is somebody who is, uh—

Wants to do it themselves.

Yeah, they wanna do it themselves, self-education, take responsibility for stuff. Ultimately, ultimately, a lot of the times, uh, a done-for-you buyer, and it's like if they make less than like $1 million a year, um, it's normally because they're normally It's— that's generally what it is. Their business is struggling. It's their own fault. They refuse to— they refuse to come to that realization.

Mm-hmm.

Generally, it's their own fault why they don't— why they don't get results. However, that's why you use what are called stipulations in a contract. So like if I say— if I say, for instance, I'll book you 30 calls, something like that. And say it's through ads. Well, I'm going to guarantee I book you 30 calls and you refuse to film any of the ads. Whose fault is it?

The client.

Yeah. So, so it's like, okay, well, what would that mean? It would mean that you put in the contract that they need to film 30 ads a month and if they don't film 30 ads a month, then—

The guarantee is null.

Yeah, the guarantee is void because it's not functionally possible to get the result at all. If that does not occur, then you have— then you might have another one where it's like, well, you need to spend X amount of money on ads, which is like, how am I going to— you can't generate them 30 calls from ads if they don't spend money on ads. So it's like, well, that's pretty clear, you know what I mean? So, so but then if you were guaranteeing like signed clients, for instance, you could theoretically guarantee that you need to close at least 10% of the showed up sales calls, which is like terrible. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's a very reasonable close rate to have a minimum on. But it's like, yeah, dude, I mean, if I book you 35 calls and close, all of them are qualified, like objectively, and you close zero of them, like get fucked. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's, yeah, it's like, yeah, that's it. That's your own problem. You know what I mean? I'm not giving you your money back like that, but it's called a stipulation, right?

Mm-hmm.

That's how you protect yourself. They have to be reasonable, you know what I mean? It can't be egregiously impossible to hit result stipulations, 'cause they're obviously gonna see the stipulations in the contract. These aren't hidden from them. It's very clear upfront what is occurring here. Like, I'll do this if you do this. It's an exchange, right? A lot of what a deal is, it's not just about how much money something costs, it's the terms of the deal that arguably matter more. Mmhmm. That's what that is. Every deal, like, it's also another just a nuance. Everyone thinks like they're starting an agency or something like that and they could say, we sell this exact service for this exact price. And it doesn't work like that. It's like every deal is gonna be custom. It's sales. It's just, you're making concessions, you're making asks and it's like, you make the fucking, or you get shit where it's like, how much should I charge for this? The maximum amount you can. That's, that's the answer. The answer of how much you should charge is, is the most amount you can possibly get someone to give you. That's, that's what it is. That's the answer. There's no like, for this service, you need to charge this much. It's retarded. So ultimately, if you have a guarantee on your offer, roughly, and I'm going to use rough numbers here, but it's at least going to work 10 times better. Like at least an order of magnitude of 10.

It's that extreme.

It is that extreme of a difference. And there's so many people trying to sell something who they don't use it. They don't use a guarantee. And it's like, if you just used one, your life would be so much better. You would just do so much better. Like actually, like Client extension has a guarantee. Any low-ticket product I make has a guarantee. It's like, it's the number one thing people ask. What if it doesn't work? And you're just ignoring that. You know what I mean? It doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, it's a great point. I think like Daniel Islands, I don't even know.

Isles.

Isles. Isles. His guarantee, like that is a great case study of like, I think his whole business is probably predicated Like, the whole success—

Yeah, entire businesses are built around a guarantee. 100%.

Like, a great guarantee is almost like a second offer.

Yeah.

You know, it's a very interesting—

I mean, you go to any grocery store, for example. I mean, what's the refund policy at Target? Do you have the receipt? Has it been within 30 days? Refund. Like Publix, it's a grocery store in the South. You could literally bring in a cake that is like 90% eaten and like—

They'll— yeah.

Yeah, they'll take— I mean, that's fraud. You know what I mean? But what they'll do is—

Totally.

It's—

but there's a lot of like, I think men are probably not as, as much of like consumers of clothing, but I know like certain women will buy from certain stores at an incredibly higher frequency because they know that they have a liberal return policy. Yeah, because like they know like, oh, I want to try it on at home like before going out. And there's a— it works in all industries is what I'm trying to say here. Yeah, there's a Very high likelihood there.

Yeah, I mean, like Amazon, you can return anything on Amazon. Uh, but there's also just a— there's a very micro— there's a micro percentage of people who, like, throw a conniption, complete shitfit if they don't get a refund for something. So it's almost like it's like you kind of just have to give them a refund, you know? They're literally gonna be— they're totally in the wrong.

Yeah.

And they're a complete fucking psychopath, but it's like they're just gonna cause problems. And it's like It's just purchasing a problem the right way.

Yeah, crazy reviews, all that fun stuff. Yeah, no doubt. So 52 offers there.

Yeah.

Um, I like— you broke down, there's really 5 and then different.

Yeah, yeah. So ultimately, yeah. So if I'm going through this, like, a lot of them are just like performance-based lead gen, but then it comes back to like, well, like, what, what, what is the medium by which that the lead gen is occurring? And the answer is it's, it's It's ads, it's either ads or cold email. But generally, normally when it's a beginner, it's cold email. Why? 'Cause it's cheaper compared to ads.

Mm-hmm.

Where it's like, ultimately, like, with ads, see, ads are very funny because if you sell a B2B offer on ads, the CAC, the cost to acquire a customer, is gonna be $3,000 plus or minus $1,500. In like 98% of the cases, that's what it's gonna be. So therefore, the economics of your business must fit into those parameters.

Yeah.

If it doesn't, then it's like you just can't run ads. It just straight up doesn't. It literally can't work. Like, you can't just sell anything. People think you can sell anything. So it's like, you take something, look at List Kit, for instance. It's $597 a month. The CAC will be $3,000 plus or minus $1,500. It's gonna range between $1,500 and $4,500. It just will. That's just what it is. It will always be like that.

That's how the market is.

So what does that mean? It's like, well, if you were to try to acquire clients for ListKit with cold traffic, well then you would need a profuse amount of capital to hold that negative cash flow for 3 or 4 or 5 months perhaps. And if you don't have that, then you simply can't use ads. It's really that simple. You just, You can't. And it's, it's just like the laws of physics where it's like, well, why can't I fly? I want to fly. Well, it's too fucking bad. You know, like you just, you just can't do it. You simply just can't do it. It simply doesn't work. Now, obviously there's ways by— there's some arbitrage opportunities sometimes exist. That sometimes is the case, but arbitrage opportunities are fleeting and it's— this business needs to work.

Yes.

Regardless of, uh, Fleeting opportunity. So it's like, normally what people do, like they start a lead gen agency, they'll do it via cold email, 'cause cold email's cheap in comparison to ads.

Yeah, very much so.

So like, for instance, you have something like ListKit, where I just said, normally you charge like a $600 a month tech fee, and then you send cold emails on behalf of a client. That tech fee covers the domains and inboxes. That's very easy to sell actually, 'cause it's very simple to explain to the person, I'm not profiting on this. It's to buy you domains, it's to buy you inboxes. They're your domains, they're your inboxes. you would have them regardless if you were working with me or not. So it's very easy to sell that. And then it's, well, I'm just operating this cold email system for you and you're gonna pay me $200 for every call I book. Literally the most reliable business model ever.

True.

Like highest success rate for beginners ever, just 'cause it's so easy to sell and it's so low risk for the client. And there's very little of anything That is not that case because it's like ultimately the client does nothing. So highest on done for you, it's new money, zero logistical intensity for the client.

Yep.

It's low commitment and it has a risk reversal 'cause it's performance-based.

Yep.

It is maxed out on all 4 of those. Now compare that to a content agency for instance, and you could have, so, oh, I do done for you YouTube content for you or something like that. Well, it's like, yeah, it could be new money 'cause it's new opportunity, It could be low commitment because there's no contracts and you charge like an objectively lower amount of money. You could have a guarantee that they sign X amount of clients, but they need to film. And the fact that they just have to film severely degrades how easy it is to sign clients.

Very much so.

You take any of those dials, you turn it down, and it's like, it's, it's so much harder. If you got them all maxed out, it's so— so that's That is the reason why so many people are so successful with a cold email lead gen agency, because all of the dials are all turned to the max and it's so fucking easy to sell it. Anything else is just progressively more difficult. However, you could have something like, generally what would happen is if you signed a client on like a done-for-you YouTube agency offer, done-for-you content offer or something like that, Generally, the LTV is going to be higher normally because it's just the client committed to something more.

Mm-hmm.

Therefore, that is a signal to them being more committed to their business in and of itself. And it's like, I mean, a lot of churn happens because they literally just go out of business. The client just decides to stop running their business. That's literally what happens. Most people running a business make no money. Yeah, there's a— there's all the eye-opening. Yeah. So it's— I mean, for somebody who like has never really sold agency services or, or something like most clients like, or people like you try to sell your stuff to, they're poor. They, they don't have money. They, they just don't. They're completely broke and they have no lead gen systems. They understand nothing. is they're really just like profusely helpless people. Yeah. Um, so it's very important you get case studies as quickly as possible because only in the presence of case studies can you get progressively higher and higher quality people.

Yeah.

To work with, in which case your LTV will be tremendously higher and your life will be significantly less stressful.

One of the things in there that interested me because of that exact point was the It was essentially, I think, like similar to this cold email offer, but for, I think it was like multifamily real estate investors.

Mm-hmm.

And you're doing cold email outreach for, or outreach in general for a like multifamily, like off-market deals. And I like that combination of the niching, the cold email to something where the the ICP has money in general.

Yes.

Like those, that's a winning combination right there.

Look, even any kind of like capital raise of any kind, generally, I mean, you generally want to do that with ads because it's kind of B2C. It isn't, but it's kind of, I mean, you could do it with cold email. It's just what's called a demand capture offer. A demand capture offer means that You can only sell it to people who are actively looking for it. I'll give you a for instance. Are you hungry right now?

Not really.

You're not? You just ate? Okay, so if I say, let's say like you just had a giant breakfast.

Yep.

I'm like, would you like more breakfast?

Absolutely not.

Yeah, it's a demand capture offer. You only sell food when somebody happens to actively need food. You know what I mean? And that only occurs at specific windows.

Totally.

Like one, for instance, of that is like IT services. You can't just, you can't just generate demand for IT services. You either need it or you don't. You know what I mean? Like recruiting, it's a demand capture offer. You can only sell it when somebody happens to need it at that exact moment. See what I mean?

Absolutely. I understand that. So going back to the content agency thing, because there was a note there that I wanted to touch on. So let's take either like a YouTube Or a, like a LinkedIn, Twitter type of thing. Both done for you, you know, new money. The going back to the logistical intensity there for LinkedIn and Twitter, it seems kind of nice in the sense that—

Yeah, zero, low, low, low logistical intensity.

Yeah. But with the YouTube stuff, how would you then mitigate the logistical intensity there?

A stronger guarantee and stronger case studies. And that's pretty much—

That's the method.

Yeah.

So you combat the logistical intensity. Like, if you can't overcome that, you're just going to need to strengthen 3 and 4.

Well, yeah, you gotta imagine the dials. If one goes down, you must increase the others.

Mm-hmm.

That's, that's, that's the only way.

Very cool.

So there's, there's no other component really besides those 4.

So you're just like, we're just gonna break down, we're looking new money, logistical intensity, low commitment, risk reversal, and And you're just looking at those 4 things and you're trying to turn the dials up as much as possible. Whatever it is you want to do, we're just— we're flipping those things up as much as possible. And it's literally— that's, that's the name of the game.

Yeah. So I mean, you look at the YouTube thing, it's like, oh, say it's like a $4,000 a month service or something like that. And it's like, well, you have the logistical intensity they need to film, but then, um, say you're guaranteeing— I'll guarantee you sign 5 paid clients a month or something like that. And it's like, oh, I'm having a tough time. Well, it's like, what would happen if you made it like $500? You know what I mean? 'Cause, but, but for instance, if you had case studies that was like, say it was like just big name, big name case studies, you wouldn't have this issue of signing people. So it's like, you need to dial, dial these things around to where it's like, It's probably not the best deal for you.

Yeah.

In the beginning. And then you get the case studies and over time, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like you start at the bottom. Like you just, you just do. Everyone wants to start at the top. It's like, it doesn't, it doesn't work like that. So it's, it's, it's just the indoctrination period you go through. You just have to deal with getting the shitty end of a stick for a while until you have case studies. And then now it's easier. You know what I mean?

Yeah, absolutely.

It's like you just, you just, you just build credibility in a market over time. So it's like, I mean, like I can go to my email list and launch a new offer and make half a million dollars in a week. You know what I mean? That's what I did with AI Assisted Agency. And it's like, well, that was off the back of like 4 years of building an audience. You know what I mean? And so it just takes a long time.

Yeah. It's like, you ever hear that? I think it was Picasso who, They were at like, someone was at dinner and they gave Picasso, who knows if it's a true story, piece of paper. Like, yo, can you draw me something real quick? Yeah. He just fucking scribbled, handed it back to him. It's like $20,000. And the guy was like, took you 2 minutes? And he's like, no, took me 40 years.

Yeah.

Took me 40 years.

Yeah.

Um, but so going to the AI-assisted agency stuff, I want to make a note on that because the more I pour myself into the AI world, the more I see that we're in this weird window where there's a bit of an arbitrage between certain things, not everything, being able to fulfill a little bit closer to like a software company, but being able to charge service-level prices.

Mm-hmm.

Certain things there that certain different businesses that kind of allow that, like the one that comes to mind for me, you have to be really dialed in in order to achieve this well, would be like LinkedIn or Twitter. Like right now using Obsidian for like a second brain source and getting a really dialed-in skill for writing, that combination of things I feel like I could fulfill really easily on.

Yeah.

Um, at a really high quality. To me, there's, you know, that there's an arbitrage there. And I think that it's such a cool window in time we have right now with this AI-assisted kind of world.

Yeah, well, ultimately, even from the dawn of time, like an agency— well, not dawn of time, but like decades— like, it is— an agency has always been just somebody, you selling, you operating a software on behalf of somebody, ultimately.

Yeah.

Like, that actually is what it is. So it's like an ads manager. Okay, well, you're just operating an ads manager for somebody. Like, yeah, there's other components to it. Or like, it's like, oh, I do cold email for them. It's like, yeah, you're just like operating a cold email software for somebody. That's literally what it's always been like. It's just, it just so happens that AI is making made some of this tremendously easier. So one bottleneck I had, maybe like 2 years ago, was making landing pages. Giant pain in the ass, you know what I mean? And then it's like, okay, well then you hire somebody to build landing pages for you. That's $5,000 a month or whatever. It was like a designer and whatnot. And it's like, okay, well now I can just either use something like Manus or just a combination of Vercel and Codex or Claude Code and just spins up a landing page. Literally in like 2 minutes.

Crazy.

Spins up a beautiful landing page that works. functions perfectly well. And like, that's it. It's like, oh cool. And that's $100 a month for your Claude code subscription or Codex subscription. Cool. And then you can make like 90 of them a day. You know what I mean? It's like really that simple.

Yeah.

And then you could, you can even build stuff where it's like, okay, well make a split test for me and come up with what the split test should be and make a schedule for making new split tests. And then like programmatically figure out which winner of the split test is which, and then based off the data of that split test, come up with a new split test, and you just like have it cascade and do that by itself for multiple weeks. It gets so complicated. It could just do that, just operate that for you. You just set it on a schedule and it will. So, these are just examples of things like that. Or it's like, I'll give you, for instance, I have a routine set up with the Fathom API. I record all my stuff, all my calls with Fathom. It takes the transcript, sends it to a file on my computer. Now, it could, it could be hosted in the cloud if you wanted to. I just put it on my computer. Um, and then I have a document that analyzes every single call I do, and it updates it weekly based off of new information or updated information called The Master Lessons of Daniel Fazio. It's 133 pages, and it's literally just like everything.

Mm-hmm.

That just any, any piece of advice or like just idea or thought sequence is in there. Like, it grabs my YouTube videos too. So if this is posted on my YouTube, like, it'll be there, or I'll like manually feed it in there, and it will be updated with what I've spoken about here today. And then what I'll do from that is I'll come up with ideas for emails for my newsletter based off what I already said in my meeting. So I don't have to like cut, you know what I mean?

Oh yeah.

And it could fully write it sometimes too. And then it's like, okay, well, I need a new YouTube video where it's like, Well, you went on this tangent for 30 minutes with this guy on this call, so you can make a YouTube video on that. I'm like, done.

Sounds good.

Easy. And that's, that's just what I do.

Yeah, dude, it's a, it's a super cool window in time right now. I highly recommend people check out the AI stuff.

There's, there's also a problem that people have though, which is like a lot of these AI tools and they'll sit there like building shit all day and it's like—

You're not doing shit.

You're literally not doing anything. So it's like—

Been there.

There was like inside my computing the other day. There was like these— it's just, there was just so many questions about like cold email deliverability and just stupid cold email bullshit. And I sent a message in there, I was like, you guys need to stop worrying about the stupid bullshit of cold email deliverability. It doesn't matter if this inbox has— is on one blacklist out of like fucking 90-something blacklists. It doesn't matter. Like, it's like you're gonna get one like microcosm of one subsection of type of inbox on this one domain that they're not gonna get delivered that email. Who gives a shit? Like, why are you worried about it? It doesn't matter. And then I was like, what is the bottleneck? Like, someone— and I always ask this to people who are like just asking for advice. It's somebody always is trying to ask about something that is totally not relevant at all.

Mm-hmm.

It always just comes down to— I always ask them, why are you asking me this? What is the bottleneck? What is the purpose of you asking me this question? What are you trying to solve? And it's like trying to solve some non-issue that has nothing to do with them making more money. Literally doesn't matter at all. There's only 3 things that you could be concerned with at any given time: generating more leads, closing those leads, and getting them results.

Yep.

That's it. There's literally nothing else that you could possibly be doing in a business if it does not fall within those categories. And be directly moving the ball forward. Why are you doing it? So like I'll give you for instance, the guy worried about the cold email deliverability shit. It's like you could be because I'll assume this guy has no money. He's like I'll assume he's a beginner and like has no capital and needs to just use his time instead. You could be sitting on LinkedIn manually prospecting for new leads, and you're fucking with like. Searching up what obscure, non-relevant blacklist this one particular domain is on. Who gives a fuck? Okay, why does that matter? And people, they go into these tirades, they're like learning these different things where it's like, oh yeah, I set up my Hermes agent to do this and this and this and this and this and this and this. I'm like, have you made more money? Yeah. I'm like, well, look, why are you doing it then? So like, I'll give you a, for instance, what makes me more money? Top number one priority makes me the most money is filming YouTube videos, writing email newsletters, maybe going on podcasts like this, trying to make deals like the one with Iman, for instance, or like trying to do stuff like that. That's what makes me money. I'm not gonna sit here and screw around trying to set up some like, fucking AI agent that goes through all this and does— it's like non-revenue. It doesn't matter. It's like, it's— you need—

It's not a revenue-driven action. Yeah.

You use AI to help you solve a bottleneck. So it's like, what a clear example before was, I use AI to make me landing pages. Why? Because I can make more lead magnets and I can like— if I were to sit here and try to make my own landing page on ClickFunnels or SoHighLevel or Framer, myself, it would take like hours to do this and I have to like manually set it. It'd be a pain in the ass. Now I can just spin 'em up like that and I can spin up email sequences like that. And it's just, I solved the bottleneck.

Mm-hmm.

It's a bottleneck that lets me produce more content quicker. Anything that isn't that is, it's just completely useless.

Right.

And it doesn't matter.

I mean, dude, it's a great point. Um, I wanted to ask you about, uh, like the in real life stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Cause like all these, when we're talking about offers and just this whole conversation thus far, it lives in the lens of the internet. And I think that like one of the things for looking at just the direction of the direction things are going in, people want connection. Like it's not completely going away. Um, and there seems to be some kind of opportunities that lie in that. doing shit in real life world. Um, any offers or things you kind of see there that you are— that are of interest to you? Like, obviously you guys did that big event a few times. Um, like, I remember on the boat that one year for Client Ascension. Like, any— anything kind of like that that you feel like is a winning offer right now?

Or— well, no, I mean, that, that's all warm traffic offers, right? It's like, yeah, you could like sell stuff lots of things to people in real life. And I, I don't think it's as, as big as people otherwise believe it to be. I mean, like, it's cool to go meet people in person, but it's like, as somebody who's sold tickets to in-person events, it's like, it's difficult to sell tickets to in-person events. It just is. And then like, you make like half of the sales like the week of, and it's like, so it's like very financially like— strenuous because it's like you have no idea if you're gonna lose or make money. And normally it's so stupidly expensive to get a place anywhere at all. It's just, it's just, it's—

Yep.

Dude, I mean, you could, you could have a very simple event for like 50 people and it's like $40,000. So it's in something in like Tampa, you know, it's like, how the fuck is it? How do we spend $40 grand?

What are we doing here?

You know, it's just completely ridiculous. It's just, it's just, it's just absurd. But in terms of like offers, like, it always comes down to what is the best way that you can turn those cold traffic dials up? So I'll give you one, for instance. One of my clients, his name's Areeb, he hit $400,000 a month, and he's a content agency, but he's not just a content agency, he has a studio.

Mm.

The logistical intensity of getting somebody to film is not just that they need to physically sit down and film, it's that they don't know how to work cameras.

Yeah, they don't want to deal with any of that shit.

They don't know how to work lighting and, and this and the files and this over here and all these cords and plugs. It's confusing. No one knows how to do this. Yeah, it's very difficult. Yeah, so he has a studio. And he runs ads locally, um, to bring them to the studio. So it's like he has, he has a business where he rents out studio time, or it's just, yes, we run a content agency and you come to my studio. You get what I'm saying?

Absolutely.

Makes $400 grand a month from that. It's like, yeah, that's— it's, it's an example. It's— but what is that ultimately? Again, it's just turning the logistical intensity dial up so that They can.

It's easier.

Yes.

So that's easier. That is a great point. That is a great offer. I think about a studio in Miami. I think it's called The Move, The Move in Miami, and they do a great job of that. They're crushing it using that exact same method. But I wanted to ask you, so like that LinkedIn X kind of content offer right now, we mentioned very cool in the sense of new money, Logistical intensity is low. How would you kind of quantify low commitment and risk reversal for that one? I'm assuming it would be something like X number of impressions, 90 days, a month.

No, you guarantee calls booked or clients signed.

That's how you like to think about it. You don't like to think about the metrics. You like to think about calls booked.

Well, you could guarantee a more leading indicator like that, but it's just going to convert less than Than it would— than a lagging indicator such as calls booked or clients signed. It'll work, but it's not going to work as well as those ones. It's just how far do you need to take the dial to make it work?

Yeah, it's a, it's a scary thing promising calls booked or clients signed because especially when you're talking like organic, like we're saying.

Well, most of the time if they like you, they just won't ask for a refund.

Yeah, that's it.

That's the objective truth is that, I mean, especially if you work hard. Yeah. And if they like the service, Subjectively, like, to ask for a refund is to say—

I don't like this service.

Yeah, is to say I don't like the service, and it's to say I don't want to use the service anymore. It's like, I'm not going to give you a refund and then continue having you be my client. Yeah, you know what I mean? So it's— if they want to keep doing it, they're not going to ask for a refund.

I mean, that would crush— like, it's just those 3 dials alone, not even— not even— I mean, it does go into the low commitment The risk reversal and the low commitment.

Yeah, well, also sometimes you can have just, uh, really good case studies to the point where it kind of like diminishes it.

It is the risk reversal.

Yeah, it, it is. Um, sometimes people just have such high FOMO, um, that all of that, you don't need any of that anymore.

It's a great point, dude. It is a really great point. Um, I wanted to ask you about AI in general right now. So you mentioned like the Manus thing. Um, we mentioned kind of a lot of the mental masturbation going on around that space. Um, in terms of like specific things that you're like, holy shit, right now, directions of the way things are moving, things that you're kind of seeing right now, anything with it, with that whole AI world that kind of speaks to you right now.

Like the AI video stuff is cool, but if you look at anything AI video, like it's, it's making ads or it's teaching people how to make AI videos. And that's what I mean, like ultimately, like most of the market for AI right now is like the infrastructure itself or education around it.

Yep.

And that's like what the economy of it is like. I mean, or like I'll give you one, like AI SEO or AEO, they call it now. It's like those are the offers selling right now in AI is AI video for ads and AEO. That's pretty much it. Or just the infrastructure providers of it. And like, everything else is retarded. It's all just like circle-jerking nonsense that doesn't make any money. And it's like, dude, I get a lot of cold emails, and like 70% of them are about AI engine optimization right now. Like SEO stuff, all of it. Why? Because it's text generation. It's, you know what I mean? It's just easy.

It's easy to do. Yeah. Easy to fulfill.

Yeah, it's— but I just like, if you want an offer to sell right now, it's like you could sell that. You could have an offer where it's like, oh yeah, let's do some AI engine optimization. It's like, well, no one searches for your kind of product on AI in the first place. Like, no one's searching for your corporate training program on AI. You know what I mean? You're not going to just make a bajillion fucking dollars a month now because like you did, you paid some guy 10 grand a month to do AI. No one was searching for it at all.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean? So it doesn't matter.

It has to be something that's a searched thing.

Yes, exactly.

Supplements or like almost same things that would work well for Google Ads.

It's like— Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's exactly, so demand capture offers. Demand capture offers. Yeah, yeah, so that's what that works for.

Interesting. And then other like tools, anything else like in your world?

Yeah, I like the idea of AI sales and AI voice is pretty cool. I don't think it's there yet, but I think it should be. it should be soon. And now it— that'll be cool when it is there. Um, and that's just because, like, I know GrokBot was kind of cool and I haven't played with it too much yet, but—

It's—

But the reason why I don't play with it too much is because I, I could just kind of clearly see, like, does— what bottleneck is this solving?

Yeah.

Is it like— I can't even think of something for GrokBot to do because it's like, well, I've designed, like, You ever hear people say shit where it's like, yeah, you make GrokBot your executive assistant or something like that? And I'm like, to do fucking what? To do what? It's like to book you flights. And I'm like, it takes me 2 seconds to book a flight. Like, why do I need a GrokBot to book flights? 100%. Like, what are you talking about? It's just dumb. It's always just It's circle jerking.

Yeah.

Oh, 100%, dude. It's all disingenuous circle jerking around like, this is going to change everything. It's like, no, it's not. And I understand why you're seeing all of this. And it's because it's from influencers whose business is teaching it and they're good at marketing and that's completely fine. And I get that. And I would also like to be in the business that they're in because I understand that that's— humans have the tendency to consume—

Yeah. It's going back to FOMO.

Useless, stupid bullshit like that. And it's like, and they will pay money for it. They straight up will, but I'm just not gonna fall for it myself. It's like, it's not to say this stuff isn't cool, it could be useful in a contextual way that I may, it may be an unknown unknown to me right now.

Mm-hmm.

It's just that I do, I only do the things as a bottleneck. The landing pages one is just the best example. It's like they literally changed my life. And it's like, I can make so much more now just from that one thing. And like make, and like we're doing, we're trying to build like an AI setter right now. And that would really help a lot.

Do you use BB9? Have you tried BB9?

No, we're just like custom building it ourselves.

Oh, nice. BB9's okay. Okay. It's not the same. It's like, it's tough, dude. The AI setters, it would be cool when it hits kind of that point.

Yeah.

Are you concerned about it getting banned? The AI setter stuff?

Um, no, not really. Yeah. It would just be like, whatever.

Yeah.

Just keep using humans, but I would prefer to not need to use humans. Yeah, you know what I mean? They're gonna be cool if you don't have to, but it's just not there yet. Or you gotta cut— you gotta custom build it yourself, which is what we're doing.

And so you, for the landing page stuff, you're, you're a Mandus guy?

Yeah, well, it depends. Um, Mandus went down and then I moved a bunch of them over and I was like, oh well, yeah, it's kind of easier to just use Codex and Vercel. Yeah, kind of. It's just like faster and easier.

And I gotta try that. I've, I've, uh I've been Framer, Framer API to Claude Code.

Yeah. Yeah, that works too.

That works great. That works great. I've been a big fan of that one. And then I really want to ask you about just like working with partners. Like everything I've ever done from a business standpoint has just been essentially kind of on my own in a way. And I very much admire like what you guys have done. Like you guys have a very cool, almost like C-suite team of co-founders. For essentially the whole suite of things you guys offer with Client Ascension. What has it been like kind of working with partners? Is that something like you recommend, like someone starting one of those 52 agencies? Do you think that that should be an endeavor you kind of go into like solo? If you have someone who's also interested in this world, like, should you guys partner up, do this stuff together? How do you think about working with partners from your team?

I found mine by happenstance. I was selling a course called Cold Email Mastery. Like 8,000 people bought it in like 2020 and they bought it.

Cold Email Wizard days. Yeah, it was a fun time.

Yeah, I had, um, I had a community and they were super active in the community and they successfully built their own cold email agency as well. And I was like, I want to sell a high-ticket coaching program because people are asking for it, but I don't want to sit here and have to do all the coaching myself. So I paired up with them and made Client Ascension and then just, it's been a thing since then.

Hell yeah, dude.

And then so like they were just, they were just competent people. Like I was, I was sure and it was exemplified that they were competent already. And I feel like a lot of people will get a business partner out of fear because they don't want to do something themselves. But then like they figure out that this person is not competent at all and they just have some X percent of the company and they do fuck all. And it's, you know what I mean? Like I would do something myself. It's just nice to not have to run a sales team myself. It's nice to not have to run the ops myself and I just get to market and that's it. I enjoy that.

Yeah. Yeah, me as well. I kind of find myself in the fulfillment side of things and just some things kind of just suck to do. Like, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. Yeah, all that fun stuff. Um, I'm gonna ask this, a very selfish question. So advice for— let's— I'm trying to see if we want to go like exact into like my situation or just with my like skill sets and build an offer around that. Um, let's go kind of more broadly speaking. Let's say somebody has, uh, done a podcast, they've done 200+ episodes.

Yeah.

Um, and then they have some sort of, let's call it in the realm of like 5,000 followers on whatever platform it is, not long form, say Instagram or LinkedIn or X, and they're just like, what do I do?

You bigger names and podcasts. That's it. That's, that's it. This is bigger names. But in terms of making money, sponsorships, that's one, or selling your own offer. But the offer needs to be contextual to the topics, the kinds of people that you're having. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

And so you think about things through monetizing in that lens of sponsorships? Like, you wouldn't think about it in terms of— and like, this is something I'm not even really interested in because I have, you know, stuff with Labify. But like, like, my editor is like, dude, can we do like a done-for-you podcast agency? Um, yeah, stuff like that. Do you like offers like that type of stuff? Like, or would you like lean more into the sponsorship stuff?

Well, It depends what access to traffic you have to— you have access to. It's like, who's watching the podcast? What is the topic of the podcast? It was just, if you could sell a done-for-you, I'll set up and do all the production of your podcast, and like, yeah, that would absolutely work. I think that was actually advice that, I think it was Jeremy Haynes gave to, what does this dude, Myron something in Miami or something like that?

Oh yeah, yeah. What the fuck is that podcast called?

Um, I, I don't know, but it was like they could, they could easily—

The Red Pill Guys.

They could easily sell like a $250,000—

Oh yeah.

Like, I'll set up your podcast and show you all the content systems and like how to set up all the tech behind it. And like, you have a studio over here and like, yeah, that would— that if you have that kind of person watching it, you know, or you have that much traffic, you know what I'm saying? But if you have like a health podcast or something like that, Well, then it makes contextual sense to have something like a bloodwork offer. You know what I mean? And then on the back of that, a health coaching offer. But a lot of times, you need association with people. For instance, like if you're trying to do health stuff, it probably makes sense to partner with somebody and give equity to somebody like Noah Ryan.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, it just makes contextual sense to do that 'cause they have traffic and they're a strategic partner, then they can be an owner of it and they can push it as well.

Yeah, I love that plug. I love giving equity away in that sense. It's like, I think it takes a lot of the, the burden and like the need of proof and skepticism away from an offer.

Yeah.

It's a great way to do it. And so offer for somebody right now on the sidelines, they don't really know what they want to do. Let's say they just graduated college. They just watch a little YouTube, they watch a little Daniel Fazio, but they don't really have many skills for, for the game. Um, what is— what's the offer? I, I have a guess of what you would—

It's any kind of lead gen where you sell leads to somebody. It doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't matter how the leads are generated. I mean, ultimately it will probably be them cold emailing.

Yep.

Because it's, it's as I said earlier, it's just super cheap to do. It's you charge a $600 tech fee and then $200 to $300 to $400 a call, and that's it. Um, high success rate. Offer of all time, like legit. But if you have like an audience and you want to make content and you like AI stuff, like you're not going to get AI automation clients from cold outreach. Yeah, you're not. You have to make content to do that. So if that's the business you want to run, you need to make content. You have no option. You must do that. It's not going to work with cold outreach. You have something like e-commerce email marketing. And it's like, that is extremely difficult to get clients for. Why? Because it's not new money and there's hella high competition. So you have no moat. So, um, normally it's going to be you're selling leads. You know, ultimately what seems to happen over time with people is they sell cold email lead gen as a service, so they're a lead gen agency, and then ultimately they start piloting ads with their clients, and then they learn how to run ads, and then now it's like, oh, now I can Like cold email, you'd maybe get someone like 10, 20 calls a month, 20 calls if it's like a really good offer. Take them over to ads, you can book like 500 a month. You make hundreds of thousands of dollars from single clients. And it's just, that's how that works. I mean, lead generation is hundreds of billions of dollars industry. People just buy leads and every business operates off leads, almost all of them.

Badass. Daniel, appreciate you, brother. Thank you for taking time.