Advocacy and Acceptance

Good morning, everyone. I hope you're having an amazing day. We are live on YouTube, but I'm looking for us on LinkedIn, and that doesn't seem to be running correctly.

Yay!

Feature features.

Yeah, well, it's the trying to go live in multiple places all at the same time that causes us some quirkiness some days. There we go. Okay, good morning everyone. We are Indie Out Loud. I am Danielle. We have Vida with the purple hair here, and we have Jessica with the green headphones. So Pete, somebody complained that I wasn't telling who was who, and I'm like, seriously?

Oh.

Um, so yes, we are Danielle, Vida, and Jessica, and we are part of ND Out Loud. Today we're talking about advocacy and acceptance, which you will notice that when we have Jessica here, we talk about that a lot. But there's a reason for that, because Jessica, tell us all what you do and why this is something that we talk about with you so much.

Why, why do we talk so much? So I have a PhD in industrial organizational psychology, so teaching businesses how not to be so sucky, to put it in the best terms possible. And so yeah, and a big part of that is advocacy and acceptance and why those two big— and, and the other one is reducing ableism. And that is found through my research and creation of the WIDE survey, where, you know, those are the 3 factors that were found to have a profound impact on well-being in the workplace and disclosure and, you know, being able to have that psychological safety, like we talked about being safe, seen, and heard.

So that's Why?

And this next week I will be at SHRM, the Society for HR Management, huge conference, and talking about this. So that's so exciting.

Huge conference. So I knew this was a huge conference, and I'm going to be attending virtually to support Jessica while she is speaking, uh, helping to manage the chat and answer questions and all of that good stuff. And, um, I, I knew this was a big conference. 25,000 people go to this conference.

Yes, it is like the big granddaddy of all HR conferences.

Yeah, put it this way, Jay Leno and Kelly Clarkson are performing at this conference. This isn't little conference, this is like a—

this is a huge deal. So for those of you that are used to like the little online summits and the little tiny conferences that are 2,000 people, maybe No, this is not that. This is actually— this is a huge honor for Jessica, and I want to celebrate that because that's, that's pretty amazing. Because in the HR world, disability acceptance, um, talking about advocacy and all of that, until like 5 or so years ago, was just not something that they incorporated that much. I mean, HR— and I want to remind people that HR is hired by the company to protect the company. Yes, they're not there to protect you with the employee.

Yes.

So, so HR has not looked at supporting employees in these ways until a handful of years ago. I mean, it may have been 10 years ago that they really started to look into some of these things. But in the last 2 or 3 years, they've really increased, which is amazing. I will say TikTok has been amazing for our neurodivergent community because it's really brought neurodivergence to the forefront of conversations. Because unlike some other disabilities, we are able to advocate for ourselves.

Yes. But learning how to do that advocacy for ourselves, knowing, learning about yourself to know what to ask for. I have this conversation daily in my ERG, my employee resource group, within my own organization, People coming, like, they're like, how, how do you talk to your managers? So how do you get the things that— I'm like, I just look at what helps me and I tell them. I just point blank put it out there. I need you to tell me, not, not just come to me and say, hey, I need to talk to you. Oh my God, the anxiety that goes up when they— someone just says, hey, we need to talk. It's like, oh Lord, am I getting fired? Am I in trouble? Every bad thing in the book comes to mind, of course. So it's like, hey, give me a short synopsis. What do you need to talk about?

Well, it's like too about having the right kind of vocabulary to have those conversations, right? It's, um, for the longest time, and I know this is a weird metaphor, but for the longest time, like when I would go to a hairdresser, I would— I thought I was explaining myself very clearly about what I wanted, but I could never get the result. But the problem was I was using the wrong kind of vocabulary. It wasn't the vocabulary they had. So I like went and researched because I'm a nerd. And I looked up like, what did I need to tell these people to get what I wanted? But I've found that it's the same in any kind of avenue that you're having these conversations, but especially with advocacy. It's like neurodivergent advocacy, like I need to be able to dim the lights or wear my sunglasses because I have light sensitivity, you know. But if you're just like, I need to be able to dim the lights or wear sunglasses, but you don't ever tell them that you have light sensitivity issues, they're going to be like, no. Yeah, you know, there are certain buzzwords that you have to use.

Yeah. And it's, it's sometimes, yes, it leans on us to do— then yes, we have to disclose our disability or, you know, what affects us. But at the same time, we want to bring awareness to that because people don't understand all these things. It's not like, oh, you stink. It's like, no, hey, can you tone down that perfume, that cologne, or try not wearing it, it really sets off a migraine. It sets off a severe headache, body aches, and I have to go home. And, you know, in a workplace, when I brought that to a coworker who kept coming in and like, you know, I understood it was probably something nice his wife gave him and he was proud of it and, you know, wanted to show her he's wearing it. But I'm just like, like, dude, can you tone that down? Like, I'm nauseous. And I'm like, and it's not that it's a bad smell. It's, it is a sensitivity to me. And he did. And he was, it was, he's just like, it was like, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry. He's like, I didn't realize it affected. I'm like, and it's bringing that awareness. People don't know what they don't know. Businesses don't know what they don't know. I mean, every day there's something new that I'm teaching someone. And to me, it's not new. It's just like, You got to remember, people, we're all unique, and there's so many, you know, coexisting things that we've got to bring that awareness around, right?

Well, in understanding that we can advocate for ourselves, it's okay. We as children were taught to be quiet, sit in the corner, um, don't ask those questions. You're a girl. Girls don't talk about that. Girls don't talk about that.

And girls don't Do that.

Don't talk about Star Wars. Don't talk about— do not, do not tell everybody what you're thinking. That's not okay. And especially as women, and women actually have a much harder time with this than my male clients do advocating for themselves because we have been told that we're lazy, we're stupid, we're— it's— you're being overly dramatic, you're being too much.

Yeah.

All of these things. I mean, we all have fill in, insert stupid words that somebody has told you. Um, right, but we tend to not advocate for ourselves because we're afraid that somebody— again, that RSD creeps in. But we've been taught— it's not just RSD. There's a difference between RSD and learned experience, and we have a learned experience of not advocating for ourselves.

Yeah, it's a very logical collection of experiences that we've had that are leading us to not feel safe. And, and a lot of people silo themselves, right? They just suck it in. They, they just stay on their little island because it's safer. They think it's safer not to advocate. But I feel like what happens is we, we become stagnant like a gargoyle, right? We just solidify in our, our place and we don't ever— you know, growth is scary. Advocating for yourself is scary. But having people to lean on while you do it helps.

Yes. Yeah, definitely have— yeah, have that community. And that's where you get a lot of ideas. And that's where I tell people, you know, go search if your organization has some kind of ERG, even if it's not a disability one yet, which every organization should. But find those ERGs of people that you can open up to and talk to. You know, they're there to help. Yeah, not HR.

And what is an ERG? What does ERG stand for? What is an ERG?

Yeah, so ERG is an employee resource group. And I think some organizations have some other synonyms for them. But they're usually— they're employee-led and formed groups. They have them for, you know, Hispanic communities, for African American, for LGBTQIA+. I mean, what else do we have? We have several veterans. And we have our disability group. There's 2 more, we have a young professionals group at our— I mean, so they can be a variety of things. And it's just, and anybody is welcome in any group, you do not have to even be a part of any of that community, because of course you want allies as well in any type of community. So that, that is a strong part of ERGs, is to have the identifying community plus allies to work together and educate each other and find out ways to grow and really have that strong community. And so that is— that creates, you know, an area to go to and talk. And then those leaders of those groups then usually have a line to the executives to really kind of get information out to the organization, be like, hey, this is really strongly being talked about, we need to do something.

Yeah.

And that's, that's what I'm working for in ours. I'm the president of it. And, you know, just the wins and the, you know, shortcomings that I bring all of that and be like, hey, we're doing great here. But hey, there's a lot of people saying this is happening, we need to do something. So yeah, it's, it's a really strong way to make that changes in your workplace. So have a voice.

And those groups, the community piece of this is a huge part of being able to advocate for yourself, because you will find out that hey, this manager over here is really safe to let your— say that, hey, I need a sit-stand desk because I can't sit still all day long, or I need to dim the lights, or I need noise-canceling head— I need to be able to wear my noise-canceling headphones. All of those things, you learn where your safe spaces are and you create them through those groups. And that's a huge part of Being able to advocate for yourself.

Yeah. And you learn that those terminologies to use too. It's the, hey, I need to work in sprints. So I work straight for 3 hours, and I need to go take a half-hour break or something, you know, and I may be still working, but I've got to move away from my desk. I've got to get away from that area. It's, it's understanding how to talk about those things and find the things that work and how other people have gotten them to work. Because yeah, that's, that's how we learn and grow. And you know, if one area is doing it, you know, you can usually get another area to be like, oh, or if you get enough voices together saying, hey, this would really help us, then people start listening. And that's, that's where it's the strength in numbers.

Right? Absolutely.

So, and that's also where acceptance comes in. That strength in numbers brings that acceptance in, in so many ways. What are some of the things and changes that you've seen with having your ERG where you work?

Being able to get people aware of like when there's on-site activities going on to make sure that they're using, you know, the backreach and video record, either recording it or having live streaming it. So either individuals from other areas or that You know, can only work remote get to be able to be involved in those activities as well. You know, keeping that community and involvement going on. That's a big thing that we've done. And just bringing awareness to, you know, happenings and going on and just the train of thought, like how people feel comfortable to disclose or not disclose and, you know, what's making them feel they can't disclose. And to the point of being able to bring that awareness and talking to individuals, we had an individual that, you know, felt they were on the spectrum somewhere, but were scared to get diagnosed. And, you know, just having that community, like, they went out, got diagnosed, and have learned to, you know, are advocating for themselves, like, just seeing that growth and like, how more, much more they're like, It's so awesome that I know how to work with my brain now. And like, they're loving their job. Like seeing from the beginning of them being like, I hate this, I can't do it, to now, oh my God, I can do so many things. So it's awesome. I know, I do too. Yeah. And just, you know, people saying that they have a safe space to talk. Like they feel totally accepted there, can bring up anything in our groups and chat about it or ask questions. Like, that's the biggest thing to my heart, like that they have a safe space to talk.

I love that. So when we're advocating for ourselves, what are a couple of quick tips to help start that conversation, figure out where your ERG is, create an ERG, whatever it is that is needed? What are some steps to that?

I mean, the first is, you know, searching in your organization what's available, what is there. Or what isn't there. And, you know, if there's not something there, is finding like-minded people. Usually you've already found a coworker or 2 that you're like, you know, you just fit with, they get you. So, I mean, talk with them. Or it is, you know, I put it in the way that you don't want to be somewhere where you're not wanted. So that's where—

Right.

Don't be afraid to speak up. Because when you start speaking up, you'll really find out, you know, if they find worth in you, or if they're just like, oh no, we don't do that here. Hello, red flag. Put in your 2 weeks and—

Yeah.

Go find somewhere. Like, you do not want to stay there. And, and yeah, that can be scary. But really, it is so detrimental to your own health to try to force yourself to stay somewhere you're not wanted. Like, I cannot say that one enough. It's like, it is not worth any money in the world. You will just make yourself sick, miserable. And—

But the thing is too, if you don't pay attention to yourself and you don't— like, if you stay at a job that is burning you out, stressing you out, even if you don't leave the job consciously, your body— you're going to have health issues, you're going to have mental health issues, there's going to be so many things that happen that are going to make it harder to do the job. And honestly, the path of least resistance is just finding a job that fits you.

Mm-hmm. Yes, definitely. And then, and it's speaking up. And so it's going to your manager, or even, you know, in the hiring phase, you know, find the things to say, be like, hey, I really enjoy when I have someone that checks in with me once a week or helps me to prioritize what my tasks are. I, you know, I like to know that I am being as most productive as possible. And that doesn't say anything about having a disability right there when you use those words. That is just showing that you want to take initiative and be productive and be a good employee.

Right.

And that's where, that's where that learning that terminology. And there it is, is asking someone to help you task, help you keep accountable. You know, and help you keep on, you know, track, like, and that's, that's something, you know, help you with your executive functioning without saying that.

Well, and just as a quick reminder here, what are the top 3 things that help a neurodivergent brain be successful? Accountability, support, and community. So you're asking for those things in the interview because you want to know what, if you're not neurodivergent, you want to know the 3 keys to success. Access, accountability, support, community. So it works for everyone.

Yes.

But it's really essential for us because when you talk to a successful neurodivergent person, somebody who is high achieving, extremely successful, all of those things, they have those things built into life. They were staffing some of their executive dysfunction. By having somebody who advocates and checks in with them and provides some accountability. They have a group of people they could talk to often about the things that they're struggling with. We all need that, like, neurodivergent or not, but it especially becomes a big deal when you're neurodivergent.

Yes, definitely.

So what, what are you most excited about talking about and doing it?

SHRM? I think that— I mean, that— well, I don't think, I know the biggest thing is talking about the, the WIDE tool, the Workplace Invisible Disability Experience tool, because it is definitely going to be a game changer within organizations. Because currently right now, there is nothing that gives, you know, quantifies how organizations— where their strengths and weaknesses are And how they're doing with disabilities. And the biggest part of them are, are the invisible disabilities.

Right.

The ones that people don't see and have a hard time believing a lot of times, and that individuals have been masking for ages. I mean, they've always been here. And with my, you know, research showing like 73% of the workforce identifies as having some kind of invisible disability.

And that is increasing.

Hello.

Just so you know, that is increasing.

Yes.

Just remind companies, we talked about this before, 6 million people are leaving the workforce in the next 5 years. 6 million people. And again, this wide survey doesn't just support only the people that are that 73% of your workforce. It supports the whole entire workforce, your company as a whole.

Where are your strengths?

Where are your weaknesses?

Yep. It's the whole culture and mindset of your organization and be able to look at that and how everyone is feeling about each other and being able to know, okay, we've got a lot of ableism in this area. Let's get some education out. Because a lot of times people don't realize that they're saying it, you know, when you're saying even just small innuendos. And I don't want to say some of them because they're not very nice to say, but they slip from people's head, you know, the whole, oh, stop being crazy. Like, that is very harmful to say to a lot of people. I— it's just like, that's why we mask. It's like, well, I don't want to be crazy. I don't want to seem extra, you know?

Right.

So we put on that little happy face and I'm okay. I'm— yeah, the biggest, biggest lie. I'm fine.

I'm fine. I can do it. I got this. Or, or just the people pleasing part of like, hey, can you handle this project? Of course I can handle this project, you know. And I think, I think there's a lot of things behind the fact that we don't want to be seen as a problem. So we'll tell everybody we're fine when we're not, we won't ask for help or support when we need it. And but I think it's— I don't just think advocacy is about learning the vocabulary to start to ask for help. It's also learning that we need to ask for help, that it's appropriate and acceptable to ask for help. And that if our jobs don't respond appropriately, then it's time to find a different job. And then that's a huge executive function task, right? I think that's why a lot of people don't ask for support and stuff because, oh my gosh, what if they— what if it becomes apparent that this is not a good place to work. And then I have to go start the whole process of looking for a job that is an appropriate place to work and the interview process. Like, I mean, I don't know about Danielle, but at least half of the clients that I've had over the course of my coaching career, I end up coaching them through the process of finding a different job.

It's more like 70— I think it was 77%, 78% of my clients I coach them to find another job.

Yeah. Because the job that they're in is part of the problem that they're having with the excessive burnout that leads them to coaching, you know. So it's like, it's a very, like, cyclic snake eating its tail kind of thing.

Yeah, it's—

I think organizations need to recognize that quiet quitting, The being unwilling to work past their wage, all of those things, and the leaving jobs constantly is extremely expensive on a company.

Oh, yeah. Hiring processes, $50,000 to $60,000 turnover, $50,000 to $60,000. That's like a whole year's wage for a lot of people.

Well, and it's the deal about, okay, it is more cost effective to keep an existing client In, in like, because, you know, a lot of businesses are all about dollars and cents. It's like, so it's more, uh, cost efficient to keep an existing client than to develop a new client. But it is the same thing. It's more cost effective to keep an employee that is already on your payroll than go out and recruit and vet and train a new employee. So it's like, we just need to have things, you know, the bottom line for these companies is You're going to spend less money if you just have processes that support and help you maintain your workforce than just looking at them like, well, I'll just replace them. And it's like, well, this is where a lot of your profit loss is.

Yeah, if you can keep your employees, it will change your profit loss in, in less than a year if you can just keep your employees.

Well, keep them and keep them happy. Because if you have employees that aren't happy, and they're frustrated, and overworked, and they're stressed out, their productivity and efficiency and all of that sucks. And they're not willing to go above and beyond at all. A neurodivergent person— and I said this yesterday— a neurodivergent person will go and defend you and be the most loyal Overworking employee. And this is not good. So as the ADHD coach, I'm telling the ADHDers, this is not healthy, but they will become that for you if you as an employer make them safe, seen, and heard.

Yes. Yeah, that there is research that shows that, that a neurodivergent individual or anyone with a disability, when they are seen Oh, she froze.

We lost her. So what she's saying is when a neurodivergent disabled person is safe, seen, and heard, they are your best employee. And yeah, neurodivergent people specifically, um, well, most learning disabilities, most disabilities are your most intelligent part of your workforce. Our brains work at a faster rate. We're amazing at pattern recognition. We're creative. We think outside of the box. We make your business run better.

Yes, 100%.

I think we lost her. Oh no, maybe she's coming back. Maybe not. Yep, she's done. Okay, I hope you have— oh, here she comes again, I think. Let's see, maybe she's back.

She's 2 times. There you go.

I just wanted to be doubled.

But we just— we finished your sentence for you because I knew exactly where you're going. But if you are attending SHRM and you want to meet Jessica, please connect with her on LinkedIn. in. Her contact information is below the video. We are here for you. If you are a company looking for support and looking to create a more inclusive environment for your employees and make your employees stronger and more effective, reach out to us. We do consult on that. We have Jessica's Wide Survey, and I think we lost her again.

She's paused.

We have a Coaches who actually come in and change your— train your management team and your leadership teams. We train your HR team. We also have workforce intelligence that comes in and will help you hire better and more, more available employees who happen to be neurodivergent, learning disabled. Our workforce and labor intelligence person is actually profoundly deaf himself. And has been advocating for people in the workforce for years. So we have lots of ways for your company to work more efficiently, make more money, which is always the bottom line, and create a better environment so that you're hiring new amazing talent. Because that's going to be a problem for you if you are still operating on old ways. You are not going to get new amazing talent because you are not even in the consideration for them. And again, 6 million people are leaving the workforce over the next 5 years. How are you going to combat that? So we are here to help you make that an easier transition and make you a desirable place to work. So if you have questions, please let us know. Have an amazing day, everyone.