AUDHD Accommodations

Good morning, everyone. We are live in 3 different places today. We're live on Facebook, YouTube, and on LinkedIn all at the same time. And we have Dr. Jessica Hickstead with us. Dr. Jessica, please introduce yourself to our audience.

Hello, good morning. Um, I'm Dr. Jessica Hickstead, um, and I am an advocate and speaker for all things neurodivergence and invisible disabilities. Uh, through my PhD, I actually worked on and developed a tool to help measure the stigma and stereotypes of invisible disabilities in the workplace. So very big proponent of that and how we can do better, work better, because everyone needs a little help every once in a while. And when you give everyone help, it helps everyone.

Yes, absolutely. So we're talking about being ADHD, the accommodations that we need. Not when we talk about accommodations, people often think you only mean the workplace. But we don't. We mean everywhere. We need accommodations for ourselves in every single area of our life. And as ADHD women, I think there are— some of my men need some of the same accommodations. But I think as women, we, we have an extra level of accommodation that we need to give ourselves a lot because we can be seen, especially in the workplace, as bitches or as aggressive, um, where a male can say some of the same things. And I have been in the where I'll say something and my autistic male counterpart will say the same thing, and they accept what he says, but they will never accept what I say because it comes off as aggressive as a woman. So we have things that we do to mask or apologize for ourselves or all of these things. And Vida and I are very familiar with these because it's things that we experience Often, and we need to find better accommodations to go with that. So I'm hoping Jessica has some options of things that we can establish with those that we work with at home, our partners, whatever, to help, but not having to apologize for knowing information.

Exactly, uh, taking the sorry out, because unfortunately when we use sorry too much, then it means nothing when it's really something that we made a mistake and men need to be sorry for. Uh, so, you know, it's the stopping of, oh, sorry, do you know what I mean? Sorry I'm late. Sorry, sorry this, sorry that. So a lot of stuff, especially in the workplace, uh, when I am late, I, I just tell people, thanks for being patient. It's kind of flipping the discussion. If I have missed a deadline, you're like, thanks for your understanding. You know, I understand this is important and I just got carried away. So can we set some guidelines later for some check-ins? You know, it's advocating for yourself. And yes, being a woman, I totally understand that. I've been in so many meetings actually, because after being told so many times, oh, you're a know-it-all and whatnot. So then I just started telling my ideas to my coworker who was a guy. And so he would say— And they would take them. And it's like, and so then he started speaking up. So another thing is finding that ally, someone that'll help you. And then he'd be like, so Jessica had this great idea. He would just bring it up as the lead in, in our, yeah, 2-person group and be like, Jessica had this idea. And they would listen when he would say it, even though it was still from me. Uh, And it's silly that it has to happen that way. Uh, and I think the more we get those conversations going, the more we talk about it, and just like ADHD and autism and Tourette's and OCD, like, the more we're talking about these things, people are understanding it's not all in our heads anymore. And I think that's another thing that's happened greatly for women. It is historically, medically, It's just told, oh, you're just hormonal. Oh, it's just in your head. Oh, go, go eat. You need to go eat something. You're hangry. It's like, yes, I may be angry, but I still have a point to make.

Yeah.

Well, and it's funny, right? And, and I know that this is an overgeneralization. It doesn't happen like this every single time, but it's like, uh, if a lot of times if a male counterpart says something, even if it comes off a little rude and aggressive, they're like, oh, that's just how he is. But if I say something rude and aggressive, that, that, that's the, that's how people have interpreted it, then I have to do a lot of repairing to these relationships to make sure that I'm understood. So I've posted TikToks about it, I've written blogs about it, but it's like the amount of effort that I have to put into daily activities just to make sure that I'm understood. with my intention and, and the kind of that the message is meant is exhausting. And that's where I spend a lot of my time studying human behavior and becoming a social chameleon, because at the end of the day, I'm just trying to make sure that I'm, that I'm communicating correctly. But I had to fight my way through a lot of people's baggage.

Exactly. And it's— and that's where I come off, and you can't quite see the shirt, the Unapologetically, um, ADHD. And I try to actually come up forward to people, and that's the self-advocate part, is, is tell them, hey, I am very straightforward and blunt in what I say. Please tell me if it doesn't come across genuinely or nicely, and let's figure out how to communicate here. And that seems to work a whole lot better. I mean, when I get into a new atmosphere with new bosses, I'll tell them, hey, I am very forward, I am very blunt, I am very black and white. I just put it out there. And that, that's that self-advocacy part and being secure in yourself. Be like, yes, I have ideas, and sometimes my words don't word right, so just bear with me when I'm trying to get the words out. And feel free to jump in. Like, that's not going to hurt my feelings if I'm trying to get a word out and I'm like, and this, and it's— and then someone's like, you mean this? I'm not going to take that as bad. And some people may. So it's letting people know where you are to help meet each other, you know, together. The more we can have that empathy and understanding of each other, I mean, we could have such a much, much more beautiful world. I mean, because that's the differences is what makes things so awesome. I don't want a box of crayons of all the same color. I don't know about you guys.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for like in the workplace specifically, I mean, this goes with your spouse, partner, whoever as well. But having an understanding, I am blunt. You ask me a question, I am going to have an answer for you. Because I know enough about 900 bazillion things that I will know something about that. And if you ask a question, you better be prepared for an answer. Don't ask a question if you don't actually want me to answer it.

That one right there. Yeah.

But that's the thing. I saw this, I saw this new video this morning. It was about some of the new criteria that they're using to help diagnose autism, but it's specifically more female-coded and some of the things that happen. It was so interesting. And one of them was managing the emotions of others.

Yeah.

And it's like, that's like my everyday. Like, it's like when I'm communicating with someone, like 90% of my message is me trying to manage the emotions of others so that they hear my message, right? So like one of my big things that I tell clients, I tell people on my podcast, I tell people on Everything. It's like, it's all about the packaging. So, you know, that, that's part of the thing. And, and then it's the societal permissions that we're given based on our role to say things, right? So if we say things and the tone seems blunt and aggressive, well, direct women are othered, right?

Yeah, and that's, it's an unfortunate reality. Uh, at the same time, I think just as we've been able to change mindsets, and they're still in the works of changing about other identities and such, if we keep kitoing, bowing down— I don't ask what word I'm trying to think of— to the societal, you know, what you got to be. I mean, that's causing us to have to continually mask, which is terrible for our mental health, as we all know.

Yeah.

And so it's finding that even ground and, you know, being able to unmask yourself without, you know, totally pissing someone off. And I've done that. Uh, and it's the same thing. It's, it's keeping these, you know, conversations going and making that awareness To individuals. I mean, I've had men that didn't even realize that they were like taking it wrong just because I was being blunt and not listening to my words. And like when I told them, like, are you actually listening to my words? Are you just listening to my body language? That definitely don't listen to my body language. It told us a whole wrong story.

Body language and words don't match a lot.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can sit here and have the, you know, the meanest bitch face on and be happy. Like, I, I force myself to smile half the time, and it's like, then when I realize I'm forcing myself to smile, I'm like, oh my God, I'm so exhausted. I'm forcing myself to smile. I'm like, hey, how you doing? And it's, it's just it— and that's why they're coming up with the, the new ways of identifying autistic autism in women, is because we have that society that's We're supposed to be quiet and understanding and, and sensitive. And like, when we're raised like that and our bodies don't match that, we are masking from day one. So it's a lot to undo.

The first thing, and I remember this, the first thing that I was taught about social interactions was smile. Yeah.

Yeah, and you get that from men. I mean, I've been walking down the street and I've had a man smile, it'll make you prettier. And I'm just like, the hell are you to tell me what I need to do? Don't get me started on that one.

The other thing that we're often told is you talk too much, you should be quiet. Quiet is pretty.

Yes, but it's the, it's the smiling, calm, complacent, uh, emotional caregiver. That's a role, and I'm actually really, really good at that role. But when I am trying to impart information, uh, the tone falls off my face, and I, I am doing it from a logistical standpoint. So people have emotional responses to me wearing my logistical hat, and so I have to tell them, I'm like, putting on my Spock hat. Because I'm, I'm setting the tone for what I'm saying. Like, I'm not coming from at this from an emotional standpoint. This is just like problem-solving scenarios. This is— or I will say, and it's just, it's coded in my language now. I've done it for so long, and it's not just a workplace thing. I used to do it at school too, be like, I'm just brainstorming. And that's what I do to set up like My logistic, like, word vomit. Like, hey guys, I'm just brainstorming. What about this, this, this? Because then, then people hear me for— I'm not poking holes in anyone's boat. I'm just trying to offer up possible solutions. Like, let's problem solve this together. Brainstorming is not as, uh, it doesn't causes much emotional trigger in people as I have a solution to a problem that you haven't been solved— been able to solve for months.

I think one of the accommodations and things that we need to teach those in our world is don't ask a question that you aren't actually looking for an answer to.

Yeah.

Because Yeah, that's, that's about being a good leader and a good manager. If you have a leader, if you have a manager, I don't care if they're leading 1 person or if they're leading 50, they need leadership training. Leadership training should be a standard in every business. I don't care how big, because leaders need to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of every person on their team and accommodate for them. And also understand their own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to communication, interaction, all of those things. People often think, well, I'm a manager, that means I know everything. No, sorry.

Yeah. And I mean, and to that, on managers knowing their people, especially for autistic ADHD individuals, is remembering that the overwhelm happens really easily. And so that's another big accommodation is, you know, to have those check-ins and be able to, you know, that individual have a safe place to come to the boss and be like, hey, I am just, you know, my brain is word vomiting, I can't concentrate, can I go out for a walk for 15 minutes? You know, is there a quiet room that I can go sit in? Is there a quiet spot I can go sit in and work for a few hours? You know, not saying they Can't work, but they just, they need that, you know, withdrawal from everything. I mean, I'm lucky to get to work remotely. So I get to set my own tone. But I know the times that I have worked in a workplace, and especially cubicle farms, and people walking back and forth and just popping in to say hi, it's like, I had to put up a note and be like, look, email me if you really need something. Every time you distract me, I lose an hour of work. And it really does. It's like, yeah, or my whole day's gone.

So, and the other things are the accommodations that we need to set expectations for. And it's not even asking for accommodations necessarily ever. It's setting boundaries for yourself as the ADHD person, as the ADHD person, and understanding how your own brain works, understanding how you operate in whatever situation is, whether it's home or at work, how do you operate within those systems and setting those boundaries for yourself and sticking to them?

Yeah, I mean, and knowing, you know, about the overwhelm and like how we can get so hyperfocused, this is like, you know, communicating that, that, hey, let me a slotted time of hyperfocused time, I can get My whole day's work done in probably 2 hours, and then you can distract me all you want with everything else.

It's—

and, and those are, like I said, easy things. You don't have to go to HR and ask through the whole reasonable accommodation process. You can usually just talk to your manager and be like, hey, from, from 1 to 3 o'clock, please don't send me any messages or call me. I'm gonna put out of office, but I'm working. And You get that 2 hours of dedicated leave-me-alone time and hyperfocus on your work. I mean, it's like, yeah.

I tell people too, I'm like, put it on your calendar, make an appointment with yourself, mark yourself as busy, you know. No, that way no one else can schedule you. Or have an admin day if you can, to where you're just working and you don't have meetings and you don't have stuff. So people know that you're working, but you're just This is your do not disturb day, whatever. Um, and, uh, it's funny. So there's 2 sides to this coin. I think there's the part of the worker to where, what do we need to know to do that? And then there's this piece over here, this management piece. So like people in businesses, people in corporate world, people— there really needs to be specific training for managing a neurodivergent team. Or managing neurodivergent workers, which I think it is. I, I used to work in a department that was housed in HR, so I had to do all the HR training, all the stuff. And there is not a lot of true blue management training. And when they send people to management training, it's a lot of team building for a day, for a weekend, maybe even for a week if it's a really, really high-powered one. but they're not teaching you how to implement this stuff. And I've seen it over and over. My husband says it all the time, um, and he was a Marine, so he's a little biased, but the Marine Corps leadership traits, he's like, there's a reason they work and there's a reason they work under stress and in combat. It's because it's— they build a relational piece with their workers. They know each other's strengths and they do it without emotion. Like that when they're executing a problem-solving technique or something. They're doing it without emotion. And I think that that's where people get hung up in corporate America.

Yeah, yeah, that, that very— that regimented. And, you know, there's box A, complete that, box B, complete that, box C, and none of the, well, I hurt your feelings and you misspoke and you spoke over me. Yeah, that, that stuff needs to go. And that's where, um, and we're talking about, you know, creating programs and stuff. Is a great thing in a workplace is, I mean, check your employee resource groups. Is there a disability resource group? I mean, that's another great thing that I was able to start at my organization. And it, it has already helped so much. Actually, I have a meeting later today to help another group with some accommodation stuff and, you know, how to get some help and how to work things in. And, you know, bringing in more neurodiversity training and just getting out there and getting the word out there. Because I mean, when we started it, there was executives that didn't even know what neurodiversity meant. Like, that is just like, in this day and age, like, how, how do you miss what that means when it's— I mean, for all I know, it's talked about a lot.

So I think one of the big things too is understanding that every business needs a resource center for I— if you have more than 2 employees or 2 team members, if you have all 1099 team members, you better do that. Because I guarantee you, if you have freelancers or consultants or whatever, there's a reason why we're all freelancers and consultants. Yeah, we are. Like, I, I think the last stat I saw is 97% of freelancers and consultants are neurodiverse.

Yeah, and that's, that's where, you know, and I go and talk to organizations, but the survey I built, you know, in the general population of working adults over 18 in the United States, I found that 73% identified with an invisible disability. 7 out of 10 of your employees in a workplace.

Well, and then that brings up another thing that So even if your workers are disclosing or not disclosing their disability, it's, it's kind of like the deal for the IEP in a school setting. There's, there is literally no reason that every student could, could not have an IEP, right? Everyone deserves an individualized education plan. Everyone at work deserves like assuming the best and doing these things and And so you can, uh, I've said this before, trainees, people are like, you want us to teach everyone like they have an invisible disability? I'm like, no, I want you to treat everyone like they are a person, that each one is individual and has different needs. Like, even the most quote-unquote neurotypical person may not work well in a team.

Yeah, exactly. We are, when it comes down to it, we are all individuals, our own upbringings, our own traumas, our own experiences. And with that, we're all unique in different ways.

Wow.

And pulling together— when you're pulled together, even a team of 5, and 5 unique individuals, I mean, especially cultural backgrounds, religious backgrounds, upbringing background, I mean, you're pulling in so many different things. And someone raised on the West Coast is gonna think some different— someone raised on East Coast, someone— I mean, Even within our own country, like, it is so different.

And there are accommodations for a working mom. There are accommodations for a working dad who might be a single dad or a dad who has a mixed family or a mom with a mixed family. I mean, everybody needs accommodations and understanding. I think one of the biggest things as a manager— I've run full teams before— that I learned was a necessity is learn how everybody's brain works. Find their positive, find their strengths and weaknesses. We need to know those as managers. When you don't know somebody's strengths and weaknesses, but you think you know, managers who think they know are automatically failing at their job.

Yeah.

To be sure, there are so many things out there. Jessica can give you a long list. I can give you a long list of quick online free tests for you as teams to take Together so that everybody can learn more about each other. I mean, just as an icebreaker, one, that's fantastic. And 2, get to know how the brains on your team work.

Yeah, definitely. We're— there's so much diversity. And that's why they call it neurodiversity is everybody's brain is different. And then yes, then we have the neurodivergence. That is those brains that divert from the neuro— the typicality. But like, it's like, okay, everyone is a little, you know, yeah, no, don't, don't think everyone is a little ADHD, autism. Yeah, don't get me into that conversation. Everyone is a little different. Like, that is a plain thing. And then yes, we have some divergences from that, that makes things even more complicated. And if we— and I think it's moving away from the word accommodation to acceptance. Like, just accept that the world is different, accept that everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. And if we find those to work with each other, Like that, that is where even, you know, it, it's frustrating if you've ever gone through the actual reasonable accommodation process. It's like the whole thing of not being believed all over again. And oh, here's my doctor's note, you know, I'm an adult, but let me give you a doctor's note. Let me get permission for this. We need to move away from that and just give everyone the help. Listen, because then The masking is going to go down, the openness is going to go up, and productive— productivity is going to skyrocket.

Right. So it's like when I ask for a reasonable accommodation, at that point I'm having to disclose. So it keeps a lot of people from disclosing. And the reason you have to disclose is to force them to give you the reasonable accommodation instead of them just giving it to you. It's ironic. Okay, so a lot of the leadership training that does happen is these corporations are trying to make themselves more efficient and increase productivity. And as someone who was a school teacher for 15 years, that's like, honestly, at the end of the day, like, yes, we want to turn out free thinkers, but it's still about productivity, efficiency, and engagement. That's what schools are about. Like, we're gonna have these kids, we're going to keep them engaged, we're going to teach them something, we're going to turn out a product. So it's like, I have so much training on how to do this. Like, how do you manage a team of 30, like, individual children and make sure that they're all learning to read and do all this stuff? But, um, corporations don't do like the, the kind of training that teachers get for like classroom management. And then, uh, how do you play to people's strengths? Oh, this person is a disruption. Like, how do you Uh, use behavior tactics to make them your most productive person in class. Like, there's all of these things that we could learn from different, uh, professionals and in different walks of life. But the corporate model is very set in stone, and a lot of times the, the corporate trainers think they know best, and it's like, man, that's, that's why you're struggling. Because you're not looking out to see what things that you can incorporate that could make this easier on everybody and increase productivity, increase efficiency. And that at the end of the day affects a corporation's bottom line.

Yeah, I think it comes down like corporations get stuck on, well, if I'm going to give anybody help that identifies with a disability, they have to go through this accommodation process. And that's just the minimum. Like, That is the bottom of the barrel thing. They don't have to do that. They could just— if someone comes up and say, hey, you know, getting a couple extra breaks and working a little longer would really help me out. Okay, is that really going to mess up your day if someone works 9 to 6 instead of 9 to 5 and takes, you know, extra breaks to break up their day? So they—

that—

because that works for them.

I have a great example of this, but you have to be a little bit of an office nerd to know about it. So on The Office, uh, when Michael finally like quits or whatever and they don't have a boss, it's when Saver takes over. This is really deep cut, but they don't have a manager like for a— for weeks. People are just coming in, doing their job, productivity is increased, everyone's happy, people are working flex hours, everything. They don't have a boss, they don't have a manager.

Okay.

And so they try to get Jim to take over and he goes, no, I didn't want to run it. We've like, we're doing great. And then they put in Dwight and that's when he like goes crazy. So it's like, we don't always need a micromanager. We need an overseer. We need someone who's going to walk around and be like, hey, we have that deadline coming up. How are we doing on that? Do you need scaffolding for it? Or like Danielle says, what do you need from me today? We need that piece in an office environment.

You want to know what that is? That's project management. So as a PMI, teams run better if there is no direct manager and just a project manager. When I learned to be a project manager for my team of 25 autistic And ADHD males, our team increased. There was less having to babysit them. There was no micromanaging anymore. When I went to, how can I support you to get your task done today? That's it. You don't— very rarely do you need a weekly team meeting. You need an email telling everybody what's going on, an update on statuses for all of the little things in the world, and Then, how can I support you to get those items done? What do you need from me? And the person is going to tell you, oh, can I have the conference room because it's really quiet in there? I can't work in cubicle world today. They're going to say, hey, I need an hour lunch break today because I just need to be able to walk away today and clear my head. So I'm going to take an hour lunch. Hey, can I come in at 5 a.m. tomorrow and work because it's quiet in the office and I can do XYZ and I can do things without the lights on? And I can get more done.

Yeah.

Okay, fine. If your team is getting the job done, I don't care what time, what space, where they're doing it, what they look like while they're doing it, and how they're getting it done, just as long as the end result is completed.

Yeah. On the what they look like part, man, that's the other thing that I would dread if I ever had to be called back in the office. Because yeah, the work clothes that are acceptable. Yeah. That just means hell.

Century hell.

Yes, I was talking, I was talking to— I, I've got my own coach at work. Um, I, I will say my workplace is pretty good. I, I get my own free coach through my workplace.

That's awesome.

Yeah, and, uh, we were talking about that. I'm like, why, why is it that corporate world, uh, because being the president of this ERG and stuff, I do have to like Go to things and socialize. And I'm just like, do I have to wear a blazer and like pants that cut me in the middle? And then all I'm feeling like is like 2 people like stuffed in this clothing. And she would like giggle. I'm like— and I showed her some outfits. I'm like, can I wear like— look at these like onesie looking things. I can dress this up and, and it's colorful and fun. And like, so I'm I bought myself a cool, like, jumper onesie, fancy-ish looking thing that I'm wearing. I've got a thing on the 18th. I don't know, sometime next week. It's on my calendar. I don't memorize things anymore. That's my accommodation. And, and so it's like, can we bring that in the workplace more? The acceptance of clothing that may not be that suit and tie, but looks nice. I've got my hairbrush, I'm presentable, I don't stink. Stop judging the book by the COVID I could go pull off a homeless, homely guy off the street and dress him up and make him look like a CEO. Is that going to make him a CEO? No. So why do I have to look like this business person that's all stuffy to be believed?

Like, and that comes back to the whole having to work in the office thing and all of that. Working in the office for a neurodivergent person is way more than having to drive to the office and home. It's the sensory overwhelm of the lights in your office, the noise in your office, the texture of their desk, the texture of their keyboard, the texture of the clothing you are now forcing them to wear, the smells of everybody's cologne and perfume, the smell of coffees, um, all of these things. are making that person your least productive person on your team.

Yeah, especially the smell part, man. I talk about smell. I just even went into a restroom at Walmart. I don't know, in the last week or so, and they must have just cleaned it or put something in there. And I almost like, even though I was about to pee my pants, I almost like walked out. But I couldn't because I would have really peed my pants. And I just I ended up with a migraine after, and we've got to be sensitive to that. All the chemical sensitivities to people, that's a whole nother invisible disability, and most people won't even disclose that. It's like, don't— you don't have to bathe in your cologne to make it smell nice.

Nobody should be wearing cologne or perfume or scented deodorant, in my opinion. Like, all of those things are for at home. Yeah, they're not for public spaces. Please don't.

Yeah, please don't. It hurts me.

Exactly. So again, it's all accommodations aren't just about a sit-stand desk or a quiet space to work. I mean, those are definitely valuable, but they're also like smells, textures, the lights in your office, the pens, that you buy for the office. I had a manager once complain because I kept bringing my own pens into the office. We provide you with pens. Yes.

Yeah, but your, your pens are icky.

They feel gross. I don't like them.

Yeah. And the sounds. I mean, yeah, fluorescent lighting.

It's so funny. It's like, what would— and I, so I used to teach my students to do this and I teach my clients to do it now. Like how to accommodate themselves because of things like that, right? So, um, what difference does it make if you bring in your own ink pens? You know, what difference does it make if you purchase your own loop earbuds and wear them? Like, what difference? Like, some of these things, the only reason it matters is a level of control, right? And so it's like, do you want a level of control or do you want me to be productive? And that's really, I think that's the disconnect. And I think a lot of management gets really, really hung up in that level of control versus, and they get really pigeonholed in it. And it's like, instead of taking a step back and looking at the field and like, wait, what are we trying to produce? Like, what is our overarching goal of our department? And it's like, no, I'm going to spend every single day and hours of my time fighting the fact that you brought in your own pen.

Yeah, stop micromanaging. Let people live. If I, you know, unless it's on some document that has to be in black ink, let someone write, right? Purple, green, yellow, orange. Yeah, believe me, I have all kinds of colored pens.

It is.

If that's what keeps our mind engaged and going and working, like, Accept people. That's, that's the acceptance.

Acceptance really is the big thing. And accept that the old way of doing things does not work anymore. It doesn't. A manager running these hour-long meetings— one, nobody— I don't care if you're neurotypical or neurodivergent, you don't want to sit in an hour-long meeting. One, don't ask questions in this meeting if you don't actually want the answers of. Don't expect your team to mask for your feelings. Don't, don't run meetings that could have been a 2-minute email. Don't expect constant interaction in things like Slack or whatever like that, because you are— you as a manager, if there are messages coming in Slack all the time, you are interrupting productivity. I mean, all of these things are Every single one of these has a bottom line of affecting your productivity.

Exactly. And I thought of something and it just went out my brain that fast. Accept people. That's what happens. Yeah, it's— yeah, just accept. Just, just learn to understand, accept, work with each other. Yeah, and stop the, well, this is how it's always worked. Well, it's not working anymore.

From a— okay, so this is the funny thing. In schools, right, they send you to these efficiency things, you do all this stuff, you do all this extra training, and, um, the mark to beat, like the gold standard in education, is Finland. Like, they have like a 99% literacy rate, everyone goes to school, like there's all these wonderful things. The country is just amazing. They also pay their teachers like rock stars. They don't do standardized tests. Like, there's all of these things that get them to this end goal, but people just see the end goal. And, um, it, it takes a mindset shift to get to that end goal. Like, and, and I think that is the problem. Like, you know, people aren't looking at what, what are the school systems in the United States trying to do versus what are they trying to do in Finland. and like all these things. Like, it's comparing apples to oranges, right? So it's like, look at corporations that have, um, super high productivity and super high employee, uh, work-life balance, the health, health and happiness, right? It's that whole, uh, thing that they always give you, that, um, that assessment. It's like, we're not going to tell your employers about it, but it's, uh, like How, what is the climate of our, our corporation? What is the climate of our business? Like, how happy are our employees? If they're not happy, if they point out things, well then listen. Don't use it as just the checkbox that you did to keep some HR law happy that you gave this assessment. You know, Pixar is super productive and super accommodating.

You know, and that's, uh, and that's the, the sad part, you know, when we're talking about standardized testing and these surveys, is there's not a survey to identify to the workplace where they stand on how people see invisible disability subjects. And that, that's what I created and trying to get out in the workplaces. Um, it's, it's getting there slowly. And it's, it's not to tell you you're good or bad. It's to, hey, here's your strengths, here's your weaknesses. Now here's a program we can do. And then we're going to redo the survey again, 6 months to a year after, you know, we've worked your company through this program and bring those weaknesses up. And a company doesn't know what they don't know. You know, all these organizations say we're inclusive, we're this, we're that. Well, how are you being inclusive? Just saying it or just having an ERG or just having inclusive hiring, that's not doing it. You got to have that follow-through and you've got to listen to your organization. How do they feel about it? Are they comfortable to disclose? Do they have that psychological safety? Is it there? That's That's the whole point of, I call it the WIDE, the Workplace Invisible Disability Experience. If you don't know that portion of it, if you don't know what's going on with those people who can hide what's going on with themselves, because we're going to, I've done it a million times over. And until we can not do it anymore and have those conversations, it's, it's not going to be the best. And those organizations that want to be the best need to know what's going on.

I think one of the biggest things, and I've experienced this every workplace I have ever worked, and I've worked for mega large organizations, I've worked for startups for years, is take the time to learn your team. Take the time to learn your team. Get to know them as humans, not just as a number on your team that you're expecting a set thing from, because your neurodivergent people are your best team members, or they're your worst and destructive. Piss off an Autie HD woman on your team. We will destroy you in the end. And how do we do that?

There's a lot of ways.

If you're a small business, piss off the ADHD people on your team. They're going to create something that's better than what you got and then go overmarket you. If you are on a very, very large team, they're gonna help cause division in your team, and your whole entire team is going to be in chaos. Because you aren't being accommodating, you aren't being human, you aren't being nice. If you aren't nice to one person on your team, it causes division in your whole entire team. And I don't care if they're neurotypical or neurodivergent, the team sees that and you start losing trust in every single person in the team.

Yeah, and nice doesn't mean smiling and agreeing with them. Nice is the accepting, the understanding, the giving that psychological safety, the openness, That's what nice is, is having that even ground, that empathy. Yeah, the cultural understanding, the just the open, the real open door policy, not saying my door's open and it's only open to ideas that I want to hear.

Right. Having an open door policy means one being contactable. So a manager that says they have an open door policy that it takes you 2 weeks to hear from them, You don't have an open-door policy. That's just— hello, pay attention. 2, open-door policy means you're willing to listen, accept what they're saying without judgment, and you have the ability to say to that person, huh, let me think about that. You do not ever— managers should never, unless they have the answer immediately, should never give the answer immediately or make something up or just say, no, that's not a good idea because you don't have a good idea or about how to process it or whatever. You can say, hey, let me think about that. Let me talk to a couple other people. I don't know. I don't know is an acceptable answer at all times. And managers that think they have to always have the answer is a problem.

And I think that goes for employees as well. Even if a manager is in your face asking a question, don't make up an answer. Yeah, we definitely want to blurt out things and have that impulse and give some kind of answer. Remember to slow— you know, I've had to do this all the time myself— slow my thinking down. Tell them, hey, let me think on that, I'll get back to you. You— I think there's a rule on when an email comes in, even don't answer it right away. Give it an hour. Let yourself think on it.

Always give time to process. And that's whether you're neurodivergent or neurotypical, always give yourself time to process. Never answer immediately. Unless you know the answer, and those of us that are ADHD probably already have the answer. As a manager, accept the answer. If we're like, oh, I know the answer to that, don't look at you and go, well, how could you possibly know the answer to that? Because I watched 12,000 hours of videos on it at some point down the road, and now it's stuck in my head forever and ever. Amen.

Yeah, when I couldn't sleep one night, I just started researching and going down a rabbit hole. And here's your answer.

And if it is a problem in a team or the workplace, your neurodivergent people have already figured out the answer. They're just waiting for you to ask because they know that they aren't accepted. So because people are not— don't have acceptance in the workplace, they're more likely to not actually make your team really good and productive when they've already researched it, they know the answer, and they've become an expert in that thing. They say it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert. I'm currently convinced that it takes less than 20 hours for a neurodivergent person to become an expert in something.

I, I'll agree with that. We're the book of useless knowledge sometimes, as I say.

Well, again, if we see a problem in the workplace, at home, in a job, wherever, we have— we will go figure out how to fix it, even if it's not our job. We will go figure out how to fix it. We have the answer. We are just waiting for a good boss to say, anybody have any ideas how to fix this? And then willing to listen.

Yeah, the willing to listen part is like, is definitely don't— back to the don't ask the question if you don't want the answer, and be willing to have your ears open to that answer, no matter who answers it.

That is always true. And I think that's actually a good place to leave it today. Acceptance. Acceptance. Be accepting and listen. Those are like 2 of your biggest tips that we can give every manager, business owner, whatever, is be accepting and listen. And you don't have to have the answer. Just accept. Have an amazing day. Thank you, Jessica, for joining us. We will have more of these conversations because these 3 brains right here love talking together and sharing information. Um, you could find Jessica on LinkedIn, um, Dr. Jessica Hicks said. Please check her out. She has a lot of amazing content and she's getting even better about putting it up consistently. And she has— and she is a professional speaker and can come into your business and do some training and things like that, as well as Vida and I will come in and train managers, train team members, and all of that. We are here to help make your business more productive, And just better overall for your team, whether they're neurodivergent or not. Have an amazing day, everyone.

Bye, guys.