Why Traditional Schooling Fails Neurodivergent Minds

I will gladly take it because it also like bothers my partner too.

It's a pretty typical neurodivergent response to lighting in schools, and we'll actually discuss that while we're doing this. Yeah, and we are live! Hello, hello, hello everyone! I am so excited to have a new member of our team with us today, and Katie, I am not going to try to attempt to butcher your last name because I will. One, dyslexic. Two, ADHD and pronouncing things, not my thing. But Katie is a new coach on my team and I'm going to allow her to introduce herself fully.

Cool.

Okay.

Hi, my name is Katie Karianis. That is how you pronounce my last name. It is Greek. I am an ADHD coach and academic consultant. Yeah. What do you want to know about me?

So she's an academic coach and ADHD consultant and almost a certified ADHD coach as well. Yes.

So Katie, I realized we're in like the last portion of our class and that's really cool because that means I'm that much closer.

I totally understand because I just finished up my master's, my one of my master's degrees. So I just finished. I'm so glad to be done. Okay, so Katie is going to be one, she's a member of my team here at ND Out Loud, but as an academic consultant for neurodivergent minds, we really want to dive into some tips and tricks for, and really talking about why traditional school fails those of us with ND minds. And as somebody who graduated in Who went to school in the '80s, '70s, '80s, and '90s. I've been out a little while here. I mean, I absolutely obviously have experienced that because there was zero support for us. And, and I was actually— and many people are really shocked to hear this, but this— I hear this. I have clients that are over the age of like 35 who have experienced this. I was diagnosed as mentally retarded in school.

Oh, no way.

Because I didn't read well. I spoke late. Um, because most people with neurodivergence also have other comorbidities with learning difficulties. That's very common. And I was diagnosed as mentally retarded. Instead of trying to figure out how to teach me, being in a very rural country school district, they sat me in the back of the classroom and didn't even give me books.

Where did you grow up? Did you grow up in Alabama? Is it Alabama?

No, I did not grow up in Alabama. I actually grew up in Western New York.

Oh, interesting. Okay.

But again, country, rural, tiny school. There were 35 kids in my whole entire graduating class.

Oh, that's small. Wow.

Very tiny school. And but this is a really typical story that many older Gen X NDs really have. A lot of us have it. And then we have this panic attack of sending our kids to school because we know we're seeing ourselves in our children. And then we're sending our kids to school and we know that traditional schools are failing and we want better for them, but we don't know how to get better for them. So that's why we have Katie here, because Katie can help you get better for your kids or grandkids if you're of an age that really want to dive in and help your grandchildren, great-grandchildren. But how do we How do we get better education for our neurodivergent kids?

Yeah. So I think that's really interesting how you kind of led into that because I'm kind of thinking, you know, I— so I was diagnosed with ADHD and dysgraphia, so a specific learning disability, back in 4th grade, I believe. But my parents were advocating for me Very, very loudly throughout the whole time, and it got to the point where the school wouldn't diagnose me. So they took me to get diagnosed. But anyways, you know, like I said, my parents, especially my mom, was very persistent. And I'm thinking it just connected the dots because I don't have children. So I haven't been through this with a child myself. But you know, I'm thinking, man, like she was probably persistent because she was afraid of, you know, us struggling, us being Me, I'm the oldest and I have 3 younger siblings. But yeah, how do we make our education better? Yeah, I think one is definitely having parents that— parents or professionals, you know, it definitely helps if both are partnering together. But having someone who is around the kid, you know, observing them and, you know, noticing and being brave enough to say, you know, hey, I see something. You know, it doesn't have to be, I see something's wrong, you know. It can just be an observation. It doesn't have to be, you know, this really scary thing, even if it is, you know, delays in development. And, you know, it's like, it doesn't have to be, oh my God, I'm afraid. You know, there can be fear in the unknown. Yes. But it's not a death sentence. I promise. I really do.

I promise. So, so I want to say that you are talking to, or you're hearing 2 successful ADHDers speak. And I am almost 50. I have a very successful autistic ADHD son too. I found out as an adult, as almost 30, that I was also autistic. So I'm AudiHD, not just ADHD. And there is success in that, and success is possible.

Absolutely.

School can be difficult, not gonna lie. Elementary school was a nightmare. High school got even worse, and college I now have multiple master's degrees.

Yeah.

College was so stimulating for me that I keep going back. Um, but, but there is hope. I want you to know that before we dive into talking more about where some of the failures are, there is hope. And I want you to know that there is hope. There are so many successful ADHDers, autistic people in the world.

So I definitely think, yeah, and I think part of that is if we can kind of— I think early intervention is a big, big, big, um, big factor in kind of, yeah, these challenges will still be there, but it's a big game changer. I'll say that. Um, like, I do have other siblings. All of my siblings are neurodivergent. My 2 brothers both have ADHD. But, you know, all, all of us had some sort of early intervention. And I think that is part of the key for us being successful, some of us more than others. But I think, so yeah, if we're going back to how do we, how do we help kids through school, I think early intervention and recognizing it Is one big thing.

And I know that a lot of toddler parents, they know their kid is crazy. They know something is going on.

My kid isn't crazy.

I mean, all toddlers are crazy. But even if you are wrong and you misdiagnose yourself, your toddler, in thinking they're ADHD and they don't end up being ADHD, any early intervention that you can do at home with them at 2 years old, even if they're not ADHD or autistic or have learning disabilities, Or anything at all. They couldn't just be a normal toddler.

Yeah.

Do for a neurodivergent kid is good for your neurotypical kid too.

Yeah. So I think that's also leading into another, you know, well, something that I think schools should— and this is something definitely my mom advocated for— is why does it just have to be an accommodation for her? Why does she have to be singled out? Or why does it have to be a small group of people singled out? Why can't Why can't everyone just get an outline of the notes? You know, why can't, you know, math with a calculator? You know, I maybe, but like, why, why can't all of these things be available to everyone? Because universal design— I wrote a blog for, um, the University of California Irvine about that. Universal design, like you said, it's not just beneficial to the individual, it's beneficial to everyone. And so I think, and, you know, that's another thing I think schools could be a little bit better at. And maybe, you know, giving, really kind of going back to there is hope, I think really embodying that message. And really, as parents, I know my parents really did a good job of reminding me, you know, you're not stupid. You're just different. Your brain just works differently than other people. Um, and that's okay, and that's really valued in this world. I think that's something that gets buried under a lot of the muck, but if we all thought the same or thought the same way, would we get anywhere? Or would we have like new inventions or different thoughts?

Oh no, absolutely not. We all have to be different.

And I mean, like, how boring would that be? Ugh. And then also going back to, you know, talking about development and say— saying if you have, you know, it might not be full-blown whatever, whatever, but, you know, um, one of my brothers was dying— was getting re-diagnosed, and he was like right up against that border of, um, what is it, dyslexia?

Mm-hmm.

But like one point off, but not enough to cross that threshold. So not enough to have that diagnosis of dyslexia.

But, but I bet every dyslexia tip, trick, tool would have helped him and did help him succeed.

Oh, absolutely. And like, even now, like, he's an architect, um, and he, he can't spell to save his life, poor thing. Um, and so in his architecture programs, a lot of them don't have spell check. And so it's funny, he went up for his review, um, and they said all these beautiful things, and he was like, no, no, give— like, is there something I can work on? Please give me some feedback. And they joked, well, your spelling kind of sucks, which is true. But you know, it's just— I think—

Yeah.

So when we can normalize thinking differently and when You know, not saying that they were saying something mean, they were saying it very jokingly and very, you know, and he really pushed them to make that comment. But, you know, I think even just schools, because kids will make comments like that all the time in school.

Oh yeah, absolutely. And all of the— every accommodation that you can give a child, that— I don't care if your kid is struggling with handwriting and your kid is a neurotypical kid, they just— one, they don't like it. And your kid can be terrible at something because they refuse to do it.

Yeah.

They don't necessarily have to have a diagnosis for that.

And they won't practice it, so why will it get better?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But providing the right support systems, the right tools for that child is still going to help them succeed.

Yes, exactly, exactly. Providing the right tools, but also providing the right environment. So like leading off of, you know, empowering your child and having them have high self-esteem or trying to like instill that higher self-esteem, especially, especially, especially— it's really important when you're younger, but especially going through those teenage years when life just kind of sucks in general, you know. Really, really, even when your child, you know, acts like they don't hear it, it really does make a difference. Um, and what was I also gonna say? Oh, and also rejection-sensitive dysphoria. You know, telling telling someone you know because you know having more of like a peer make a comment at you if it's say a friend that's one thing say it's a teacher like I've had teachers announced to a whole classroom um like one kid was bothering me and he was like why you have your calculator out she told you She told everyone put their calculators away, and I was like, uh, no, I can still have my calculator out. But I hid it like in my lap because I didn't want people to see it. And she starts passing out the test, and he's like, teacher, teacher, Katie has her calculator in her lap, she's trying to cheat. Um, and she goes, it's okay. She puts like this big smile on her face and she goes, it's okay, Katie has a disability and math is really hard for her. So she uses her calculator so she won't make simple mistakes. And I just like— and this is 6th grade, so in Maryland, 6th grade is the beginning of middle school. Um, and I just— I probably turned beet red. And we're starting to take a test, and I just like kind of put my head, you know, in my hands, and I'm just like, oh my God, oh my God, my, my life is over because Everyone in this class.

Everybody.

And everyone in the school is going to know because I am like, I'm the only thing people care about. And it just, you know, that spiraling starts. And, you know, I didn't fill out a single thing on that test. You know, but when we have environments where, say, if we have the universal design, if we have, you know, teachers that are Supportive. If we can teach, you know, put— add that to the curriculum, you know, be nice to other people or learn about people with differences, you know.

Absolutely. I mean, not all differences are visible. Somebody in a wheelchair, somebody hearing impaired. I grew up with profoundly deaf siblings and hearing impaired siblings, so obviously that was— well, especially back in the early '90s, it was very visible then. Now you can barely tell anybody wears a hearing aid. But all of these things, not everything is a visible disability. And not everything is— not everyone fits the same thing. You can have a kid with severe eczema or severe acne, and teaching people that that's okay and doesn't make them a target is helpful. And they need to start young. We need to start young with that.

And I think we're doing a better— I think we, as we move through these generations, you know, Like, I'm thinking, you know, in my parents' generation, you know, they definitely— it was definitely like an insult, uh, to call people queer. Um, you know, and then even like a little bit into my generation, but you know, my generation, it's more, you know, I remember my siblings and I teaching my parents about pronouns and my grandparents about pronouns and transgender people. And, you know, I feel like everyone gets a little more accepting of some people throughout these generations, but I think we need to remember and maybe make the message more broader and more inclusive. Like you said, like, I didn't even think of like people with eczema or acne. Yeah, that's something that people definitely, um, like, yeah, I'm thinking back to my siblings. Yeah, I would tease my sister about having eczema because yeah, that sucks. You have to have like stuff rubbed on you. That sucks. But I'm thinking, that wasn't nice. Why was, you know, my sister having an eye patch and me defending her to other people bullying her different than That, that, yeah.

And, and kids, I mean, this is things we need to learn, learn with kids. Now, neurodivergent kids, there have been a lot of studies, hear 20,000 more negative words about themselves from other people than a neurotypical child. 20,000 more negative words before they hit middle school.

And then middle school, like one, one positive for every 5 or something like that.

Something like that. I can't remember.

Yeah, it's something really outrageous. Um, but then you think of the impact of that one negative. Like, there is neuroscientific evidence— I don't have the study off the top of my head— but children— it's either children or teenagers— people will remember those negative comments way more often, and that negative comment will have a greater impact on your self-esteem and mental health. Well, especially 10 positive comments.

Exactly.

Especially more negative, and they have a more Yeah. They have a greater impact. Doesn't that, doesn't that like put a red flag? Doesn't that like wave a red flag to schools saying, hey, kids are here a big portion of the day and a big portion of the year, um, and where do you think they're hearing most of those negative words?

I know I, I can name off teach— I mean, and obviously I was in the '80s and graduated in Very early '90s. So I heard not— I would say I probably heard 50,000 or 60,000 negative words, and, oh, probably 75% to 90% of them were from teachers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, even like that story I just said, like, I will, I will never ever— I know that teacher's name, I know exactly what she looked like. I will never forget that. That is one of the most vivid things I can ever remember. I remember the name of the kid that, uh, yelled out that I was— I remember who was sitting to the left of me because I don't know, I just, you know, it's just in there. But, um, absolutely.

So what are some things that parents can do to advocate for their kids? How do parents advocate? So I'm gonna, I'm gonna put one out here right now, and that's what ND Out Loud does. ND Out Loud, you can hire— we have Katie, we have a behavior modification special ed teacher on staff, we have another special ed teacher on staff, we have a family sociologist. So I have a whole team of people that specialize in doing this for— with parents. Um, so one, you can hire somebody to work with you to help you raise your child so that those things don't come up, so that they hear less negative words, so that they— so that they can help you advocate with the school. So there is that one thing. But what's some other tips that people can use to advocate for their kids to get what they need from Absolutely.

Um, so yeah, when you're advocating for what your child needs, obviously know, know what your child needs, or at least have some idea. Um, if your school is— if you can persuade your school to do some sort of testing or some sort of intervention, that would be awesome. Um, the only concern is depending, like, if you're in a private school, you're more likely to get better support. If you are in a public school, especially a crowded public school, um, you might not get the best support. But take your shot, see what it does. Um, it could be great, could not be great, but let's hope for the better.

Um, so something I do want to mention is right now there are 17 states, and I'm not going to list them all off, I'm in one of them, um, that are looking to get rid of 504. For kids, and it's not all states, but if it goes through in these 17 states, you better believe it's going to affect the rest, every other state in the U.S., because it is a federal law. So if 17 states ban it, it's going to be gone for every state. That is what provides support services for our neurodivergent kids.

I don't even know what to say to that. I really don't. So 504s and IEPs or just 504s?

Just 504s. But most ADHD or neurodivergent kids only fall under a 504 plan, not an IEP.

They do. Yeah.

So what does that mean? What you can do right now to fight for your kid, and I don't care if they're 2 or 12, is call your state representatives and tell them no.

Yeah, no, I— that is a huge yes because no, my mom fought tooth and nail. Um, every single year at my IEP meeting they said, oh, she needs a 504. And my mom was like, well, did she meet her goals and objectives? And they were like, yes.

No.

No, no, they didn't even know. They— these people, they would lie through their teeth and then my parents would point them out and they'd be like, oh. are bad, or no, you're wrong. And just, you know, just some schools blatantly lie like that.

Um, well, and I do want— I want parents to keep in mind, your school does have to provide these services. At this point, it is still a federal law. They have no choice.

So they do, but a law is only as good as its enforcement. So that's just more, you know, encouragement. Keep Keep advocating. Um, you know, my mom was really adamant at filing, um, you know, filing— what are they called— due process or whatever with your county or with your school. But just advocate and do your best. I think what you can also do to help your child is, if you can afford it, um, or technology is wonderful, there are lots of online tools, um, and programs that you can help— that you can use To help your child in areas that you see weakness. If you notice areas of weakness, that's something else you can do to help your child through school.

And something else I will say, as somebody who works with kids, we homeschool and we do homeschooling programs for neurodivergent kids right now here at ND Out Loud, and mom of a child I homeschooled, and one of the best things that you can do with your kid is sit down and practice with them. Practice your color— their colors when they're little. Practice reading letters and recognizing letters. It does not have to be reading a book and mean and horrible and nasty. It could be playing a board game. It could be playing a video game. There are so many learning video games you can play with your— as a parent with your kids.

There are also like executive functioning, um, video games, like video games that train your executive functioning skills. That was super cool.

I still— I found one for the kids I was homeschooling and I play it now because I'm like, this is cool. There are so many of these things out there. And if you're a parent who struggled with these things in school, all of those things are going to help you. It's not too late to help yourself. Even— I don't care if you're 60. I have a 75-year-old client who is learning executive function now at 75 years old.

Yeah. Honestly, no. executive functioning, you're always going to need it from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed. Like, there are just some days where I'm like, why is it so hard to just start my morning? Or just, you know, figure out like, why can't I just start my dishes? Or, you know, figure out how to tackle it. Like, just—

Yeah. And a lot of times it's don't do it yourself. We need support systems around us. It's not— it's don't do it by yourself. A lot of times it's get the support you need from outside sources.

Yeah. Yeah.

And there are affordable outside sources. I mean, we are one of them, obviously, NDLA, but there are so many other outside support sources. And if you don't know what they are, ask. We will tell you for absolutely free. I am happy to tell you whatever I know because I love to info dump all the things I know on people.

Like body doubling. I think one strategy I learned from a writing group that I was in was everyone would I mean, obviously it was like a 1-hour like block session, so everyone would jump on the same time. But I did this for myself when I started doing body doubling through ND Out Loud. Um, before I would join, I would say, okay, I'm going to do this, this, and this. 3 little things that I knew I could accomplish within an hour to an hour and a half, somewhere in there. And I got it done in an hour and 15 minutes. But you know, I just— or to make Me more accountable. Um, some people would put it in the chat and be like, I'm gonna do this, this, this, and this. Um, you can even take it a step further and put in a little message when you finish it. Okay, done with some step 1.

We love when people do that in body doubling. When people tell us they're done with what they wanted to accomplish, we all stop and we celebrate with them. And that creates new pathways in the brain. Yeah, it creates dopamine for the person that we're celebrating and for all of the other people on the call. And you're also creating success loops for every single person in that system that you're using.

Because who wouldn't want to be celebrated, or who wouldn't want to celebrate with someone else for doing that? You know, it could be a terrible, awful thing that you had to do, or something that was just, you know, it could be whatever. It's just, you know, who wouldn't want to come back to that over and over again?

I use body double. I have really disordered eating habits because of health issues, and I would use body doubling for like a year and a half. I would only get on when I was supposed to eat meals and commit to eating my meals. We have somebody right now once a week that has to, due to some health issues, comes on and takes a nap during body doubling.

That is so funny.

We have other people that work out. We have people that clean their house. We have people that are doing paperwork or schoolwork or whatever. And are they use those and everybody finds success with it.

Working out. I like that one. I think I might do that one tomorrow morning because you guys do it like so early.

Well, you're on the opposite coast from the rest of us.

You know what? That's another one. I'll throw that one in there. That's one that I haven't thought about. That is something that really helped me through school. And I don't—

my—

I don't know if my parents did it intentionally, but all of my siblings and I We did multiple activities. We were busy. Um, you don't have to fill your day with activities, um, like we did. But, um, you know, I would swim in the morning before school 2 times a week, and then, you know, every single afternoon right after school. So I was never going from school to— sometimes I would go from home or from school to tutoring at the library, but there was like that drive in between.

Um, You know, I always had a huge deal for us.

But I think those bursts of activities, yeah, I think what helped me through the transitions was, I mean, you needed to eat at some point. I think having that car ride, those 20 minutes of— to the end it was me driving myself, but of just being in the car and kind of like winding down with my mom and eating. I called it linner because I didn't really eat lunch in school. It was like me carrying around a box of Cheerios because I couldn't eat. But, um, right after school I would have like linner, which was like a fat bowl of pasta or something like that, because that was— medicine was wearing off and I was like, I'm hungry. And then dinner was a few hours later. But, um, to get to the point, like, I think having something to activate those transitions was also helpful, but also integrating that exercise component, like getting my heart rate up and having something to break it up. Absolutely.

Especially as a kid, teenager kid, they need that active time. For me, my transition times in between things, because I have to bounce from coaching call to coaching call to coaching call, and I've got to context switch often, and I'm running a team of people and all of these things, I do things like I walk out of my office, I go wash my hands. I get a drink of something completely different than what's at my office, which there could be 5 drinks on my desk. So I make sure it's something different. And then I go back and sit at my office again, sit down. It may take me a total of 2 minutes to do all of those things, but it sets me up for being able to transition to that next task.

I like that. I like to, when I'm doing stuff like that, like back to back, I'll either, I have a standing desk, so I'll either raise it or lower it if I'm standing, or if I'm feeling fancy, I'll take my little cycling bike and I'll cycle while I do stuff. I like to cycle while meetings. Um, that's a good one. Meetings are just— I feel like a lot of the time they're not talking about me. And because, you know, ADHD, it's like, it's— I live in the world of Katie. Um, but yeah, no, I think that also helps.

So what can you do for your kids to offer them those transition times, those exercise times, those bursts of energy, the food or nutrition that they need in between tasks in order to keep their brain going. Um, something I, I have— my brother and I, you've heard me talk with Tim, you've seen me live with him many times, but we had our, our hearing impaired system at school. Our teacher there would provide peanuts and raisins, a mix of peanuts and raisins for everybody that came into her room. And we would come in and be between classes to get extra help. We would come in after school for extra help. There was always peanuts and raisins for us. Always, always, always. You want to know what I use to focus now?

Peanuts and raisins.

Peanuts and raisins still. And I am 49. I have been out of elementary school for years. But peanuts and raisins are what I know is for my focus and to get things done. That's my food. So it's setting like the vibe of focus for me.

I like that. I think for me it's, you know, well, one, um, if you live in somewhere or like it's the time of year where— I've never lived somewhere where you can't really go outside except when it's winter in Maryland. But, um, you know, oh my gosh, let your kid be outside. Get them in a sport that's outside, um, or like a sport that's inside, um.

Get them moving.

Get them moving. Or like, you know, say they hate sports, can we do a video game like Just Dance or like, um, like VR if, you know, that's their thing? Or, you know, Legos if they really want to be sedentary. Um, you know, just something. I think it's also really good if you can do something social, right? Especially with kids with ADHD. a lot of us, we just want to talk. And I think sports is a good time to do that. Swimming, not so much. I would talk to myself when I swam. But I think if you're playing soccer or something that encourages communication, that is, I think, super important. You're also exercising a different portion of your brain.

I think the most important thing, I like the idea of associating food with But I want to point something out as a nutrition, as a nutrition consultant and a health coach. Peanuts are full of protein and healthy fats, which is neurodivergent brains need 30% more healthy proteins and fats than the average person. And also with the raisins, it's healthy sugars, which we need 60% more glucose and fructose than your average person. So that snack Was the perfect brain food for a room full of neurodivergent kids.

I love that. I'm gonna think of that more now because yeah, no, I always— that was gonna be what I was gonna say. Get a snack that is gonna fuel your brain. Um, the reason why I ate Cheerios during the day, you know, it was my medication made me nauseous, so that was the only thing I could put down. But then as soon as I got home or like, you know, that medication wore off, you ate my son.

Oh my gosh. He would eat like 5 meals in a 4-hour period.

Yeah. No. And then add that exercising on top of it and you're growing. So like, you know, but yeah, get something with lots of protein. Also something that you enjoy. I think also if your kid is older, you can also, if your kid is younger, you can meal prep things, but also, you know, enable them to You know, grab it themselves.

To, you know, let them have healthy choices.

I think choices too. Choices are great, you know, because kids also at school, what they're told, you can't do that, you have to do this. It's always by the rules.

There's no autonomy in school. Yeah, even, even in a lot of homes, there's very little do it my way, this is the way we're going to do it. And, and ADHD kids, if you want to build oppositional defiance into your ADHD kid, don't give them choices. Give them choices removes a lot of that. And believe it or not, the more choices you give them, even in communication— if you watch the live I did with Laura a couple weeks ago, we talked about communication styles— all of those things increase, one, the success of your kid, and two, decrease the overwhelm of your kid.

Yeah, no, and again, like, creating an environment where they're going to be happy, they're going to— because again, if you want to use snack as a transition into homework Well, if you, you know, don't give them that choice and say they're grumpy going into snack, they're grumpy going into homework. Homework's not gonna go well. They're not gonna be happy. You're probably not gonna be happy.

Everybody's gonna be in a bad mood, and it's gonna set the tone for your whole entire night in your home.

Yeah. And then to boot, you know, kiddo's probably not gonna learn whatever homework X was. And then if you're one Or, and they're not gonna get the points for it either. So like, let's just cut the, you know, let's just cut it at its source and just, it's, I think, very simple and very underrated. And it doesn't have to be these big complex things. Like you said, peanuts and raisins.

Peanuts and raisins. If your kid can't have peanuts, uh, give them— there's so many options.

You could do yogurt with, um, yogurt with fruit, like Greek yogurt with fruit and like stuff on it, or granola. Beef jerky.

Beef jerky is a fantastic snack for a kid. I love those things.

I mean, any little burritos, you could do like little breakfast burritos if your kid likes eggs. You can, you can put vegetables in there too if you—

There's so many options. And I think, I think as a parent, not looking at things as I can only feed them snack foods— no, you don't. You can feed them chicken and Alfredo sauce to dip their chicken in. Great.

Yeah, there you go. You could do quesadillas.

There's so many things that you can do for your kid.

Especially if your kid is on medication and not eating lunch. Again, give them linner. Like, that's what we call lunch dinner, but like, give them linner. Give them what you would make them for lunch, um, and probably a little more because they're hungry. I remember, I remember that feeling. I'm getting it now because it's close to dinner time, but like, I remember that feeling of like the hunger pains. I'd be like The last 20 minutes of school, I was useless because I was like, oh my God, I'm hungry. I'm hungry now.

Yeah, I haven't eaten all day. And if you have a little kid, they're probably being too social and not eating too, even if they have the opportunity to eat.

Yeah.

I know that's something that we forget. Well, they get talking again. They don't have enough time where they're not eating. There are so many ways that you can advocate for your child and Support them and so many things you can do. If you have any questions, you want to learn more about ND Out Loud, just message me or Katie at any time. We're happy to answer the questions. You can reach out to us via the website ndoutloud.com. We are here to support you in your journey as a parent or as a neurodivergent adult or college kid or manager or teacher or therapist or whatever it is. If you need support, we have somebody on my team that can support you. I look forward to more of these conversations on Tuesday evenings with you. If you have questions, please ask. Have a great night, everyone.

Cool. Good night.