How To 10x Your Business By Being AUTHENTIC

An attorney is putting something in an AI machine and it is not correct, and you're representing that it is correct. That's a big issue. Some things that have happened recently where attorneys are putting to an AI machine and it hallucinated case law and they lost their law license.

Whoa.

I will frequently go watch my daughter cheer. That's awesome. Or go watch her do whatever she's doing. And that's nothing I could have done in big law because big law, there's an expectation of you're gonna be in your desk at this time to this time, whether or not you You

get to make the events. I think that alone is worth it. Have you seen many people go pro se?

Most people don't.

How does that usually go?

Terribly.

Because today I am interviewing Jordan Cadenhead. She is a lawyer, a family law lawyer out of Brownwood, Texas. She's been practicing law, running her own business for about 8 years. This episode just proves that every business has to deal with similar things like hiring, firing, Budgeting, all of these things. So if you're interested in learning about that, you're going to love today's episode. Let's get into it. Today's episode is sponsored by Empire Management Group. Whether you're a business owner looking to improve employee benefits, strengthen your insurance coverage, grow your sales, develop your leadership team, or build long-term wealth, Empire Management Group provides practical solutions all under one roof. That's right. Their team helps businesses attract and retain top talent, improve operations, and create sustainable Plus, through premier partnerships like Aflac, they offer career opportunities for individuals looking to make an impact in their community. Learn more at empire-management-group.com. Let's get to the episode. How many years have you been doing this?

Practicing? I was licensed in 2018, so

8 years.

8 years.

So you've been practicing for 8 years?

Yes.

What have been some of the biggest things you've learned along the way?

I think one of the most shocking things is when I came out of law school, you expect law school to teach you how to practice law, and it really doesn't. It does a very good job of teaching you what the laws are. Hmm. But not their practical aspect and how to actually do this thing called practicing law. And so that was—

I feel like that's most industries.

Yes.

And we were talking about this a little bit before, but with real estate, for example.

Yeah.

I went through months of preparing for the exam and everything for getting licensed here in Texas. I finished the test, walked out the doors, found out I passed, had no idea what I was doing or how to do real estate. I was like, how am I supposed to fill out this? It kind of tells you like, okay, get familiar with these words, but it's completely different doing it in the real world.

Right.

So I'm assuming it's been similar for you.

Absolutely, yeah.

So has there been any struggles along the way figuring out the business side of things? I have a lot of friends who, they'll go and become a doctor or they'll become a chiropractor and they're great at the thing that they're, they went to school for, but they struggle because everything is a business and you have to know the business side of things, the money side of things. How have you handled all of that side?

So there's multiple layers, right? Because you get out of law school and you know the law. And then you learn how to practice and practice law. And then if you're a litigator, that's another level, another layer. And then the whole business aspect as well. For me, I was really fortunate to have some really good mentors that showed me how to run the business side.

Were they lawyers?

Somewhere in some way.

Okay.

Yeah, because the running of a business is kind of universal regardless of What industry you're in.

Yeah, you got to make money, you got to spend money,

pretty much. Yeah, yeah.

And pay taxes sometimes.

Absolutely. Yeah. So hire a really good bookkeeper. Yeah, hire a really good CPA and get out of their way and let them do their

job. 100%. That my— luckily my aunt is like a whiz when it comes to that world,

right?

So she does it for us and she has saved me I don't know how many tens of thousands of dollars in the last couple of years because she knows what she's doing with the tax stuff.

Right.

Um, so how many people do you have on staff?

So I have 3 full-time staffers, um, 2 paralegals and then a receptionist.

What does that, what does that mean?

The paralegals, they're the ones that do a lot of the client-based interactions. Um, they, When somebody comes in, like kind of the lifespan of a litigation case is they'll come in, they'll meet with the attorney. Um, we decide whether or not it's going to be a good fit. If they end up retaining, then we have a strategy meeting where we again come together with the paralegal in the room and we lay out, this is the plan. Okay. This is how we are going to get from point A to point B and C and, and so on. And then, um, the paralegal does a lot of the minor drafting. So they help with notice of hearings and subpoenas. And if clients have questions, I'm usually always in court. There are very few days that I'm not in court. And so the paralegal is their point person.

So what is that like? What is life in the courtroom like on a daily basis? Because like, I feel like most normal average citizens rarely go to court. I guess it depends on the crowd that you hang out with and the situation. But like me, I have never been to a court case. I mean, I'm 25. There's been really no reason for me specifically in my life to have to go to court, thank goodness. Almost. There's been a couple times, almost. Um, but how is that like?

You've never been on jury duty?

I've been selected, but I've— oh no, no, no, I've been summoned, but I've never been selected to stay.

Okay.

Um, most of the time I got out of it because I was in college. I've been out of college for a few years now and I've only had to go once.

Okay. It depends on what county you're in and whether or not it's a jury or a bench trial. There's lots of dynamics that kind of go into play. At this point, doing it for 8 years, you're really used to it.

Yeah.

Um, especially in a smaller market. You know the judges, you know the attorneys on the other side. Most attorneys know what's going to happen and know what the most likely outcome is going to be for their client going in. And so if—

Do they tell?

Does the judge tell?

No, no, no. Do you said the attorney knows and that's the lawyer, right? Y'all typically know how it's going to go.

Yes.

Do you communicate that to the client or do you just go and make the best case for them?

No. Um, we communicate it. Okay.

You're like, okay, this is probably how it's going to go. These are our options.

Right. And you have that conversation on the front end because our goal is not always to go to court. A lot of people think you hire a litigation attorney, they're going to court. Not necessarily. You want a litigation attorney. In case you have to go to court. You want someone who has litigated enough to know this is probably what's going to happen in this hearing. And here's how to avoid it if it's bad for you or to capitalize on it if it's going to be a good outcome for you.

Okay. Is there a lot of emotions that go on in the courtroom?

Most of my job is dealing with human emotions. And I would say 80% is human emotion, 20% is the law.

Do you ever feel like you're just like more of a counselor than—

Most days.

But I feel like, do you have to ever be careful with what you say? Because technically you're not a counselor.

Yeah.

And you're also working in like a legal position.

Right. Uh, yes. I mean, you do need to be careful what you're saying to your clients because you are in this position where they're relying a lot on what you're saying and your opinions. And so for me, I'm really selective with who I represent. I don't represent everybody that comes through the door, and I'm pretty intentional about that. And so my clients are really good clients, and I have the rapport with them where I can say, you know, here are your options and here's what I suggest, but it's ultimately your decision. Mm-hmm. And we can talk about how That's going to play out if this is the route you want to go. Um, but I really just give them the information and let them make the decision they want to make.

Yeah. And does that typically work pretty well? For the most part. Okay.

Some, sometimes it just doesn't. And, and then there's another frank conversation of, okay, well, I've told you based on your facts and circumstances, this is probably what the judge is going to do. I've advised you that this is probably what I would suggest. And you've decided not to do that. And so now we're in this other realm where, okay, we are going forward to litigation. We're going forward to the next step. And how do we get the outcome you want or as close to it in litigation?

Yeah. Okay. So this podcast, we talk a lot about the business side of things. And so how long were you in school?

Um, so I did my undergrad at Tech. Um, so I have a bachelor's degree from Texas Tech and then law school is a doctoral degree and it's 3 years. Um, so 7.

7 years in school.

Yes.

You spent 7 years going through and getting education to do law and you're, you had a business degree as a bachelor. So all this time, now all of a sudden you pass the exam and you're like, okay, now I have to go and actually start making money as my career. What was that transition like for you?

So for me, I had some great, great people in my life and some really great mentors. And I talked to them about truly what I want my day-to-day to look like. And they encouraged me, okay, I was in San Antonio at the time, go sit in the civil courthouse. San Antonio has a cattle call kind of procedure where you go and, and there's 50 different cases going on. And so you get to hear all of the civil cases. You can kind of pick and choose which ones you want to actually go listen to. And so I spent weeks just listening to cases and listening to good attorneys try cases. And I was— I didn't want to do civil law. I didn't want to do family law. I thought it was really messy. And so San Antonio, there's another courthouse, a criminal courthouse that's connected through a basement. And so I went across the basement and I sat and started listening to the criminal trials. And I really liked criminal law.

That sounds like a crazy movie. Like I went under the basement to the criminal side. Like, that's crazy. Sorry, continue.

No, it was. And so I just sat and I listened to the criminal trials and I really, really liked criminal law. And so I had made up my mind at that point I wanted to be a criminal prosecutor, and I wanted to be a litigator. And so I interned at the District Attorney's Office in San Antonio in my 3L year and joined the office shortly after graduating. And I was there, um, under a judge, her name's Crystal Chandler, in her courtroom when she was on the bench. And listening to the prosecutors assigned to her court prosecute and the defense attorneys. And then she would invite me back and we would have conversations about, you know, this is why this happened and this is why this didn't happen. And did you see what that attorney did there? That's really good. Maybe hone in on that. And so I just developed a lot of my litigation strategy through watching other people who were much, much better.

Yeah.

Do what they do. Um, and so I locked in on criminal, joined the district attorney's office. I was there for 3 years. Um, COVID happened. Um, my husband got laid off. Prosecutors don't make a lot of money. And so we made the decision as a family to step outside of the district attorney's office. I went into private practice. Um,

which I'm assuming

was the family law.

Does this make a lot more money?

Yes. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. Prosecutors don't make a lot of money. Statistically, in San Antonio, they make even less money. And we had 2 kids. COVID. He was laid off. We had to make some pretty quick financial moves. And so I went into an all-female law firm there in San Antonio, and I really loved it. Family law and criminal law do overlap a lot, a lot more than I anticipated. And so I was there for 2 and a half years and I really, really enjoyed family law. And so then my husband got a job opportunity in Alaska and he said, hey, I wanna take this job. And so we moved to Alaska.

How do you just get a job in, like, what industry is this in?

So his doctoral degree is in molecular biology.

Oh, okay.

And so he was working at Fort Sam in San Antonio when we met. And the job in Alaska was an epidemiologist position. And it's one of those, all the married people were really like, he came to me and he was very excited. And I said, sure, honey, apply for that job. Thinking there's no way he'll get it, right? We'll be safe. And he got it.

Wow.

And so we moved to Alaska.

A molecular biologist. How do you even? I don't. I don't even know what you would do on a date. Like, my job is so far different from that.

He's currently a professor. He's okay.

Okay.

Done lots of different things.

That's awesome. So was he a professor in Alaska?

No.

Was it a different job?

Epidemiologist. Oh, that's right. Okay. Yeah, he worked for the health department.

Okay, cool. Dang. Okay, so y'all moved to Alaska. So is that when you decided to open up private?

Not initially. Um, so when I moved to Alaska, I joined a law firm and, um, was there for about a year and a half. And I was really kind of spoiled because of the experiences I had in Texas, um, with their firm structure. And then I stepped into kind of an old school firm and I didn't like that. And so I just branched off and did my own thing.

Yeah. Okay. So now you're doing your own thing.

Yes.

Now you had to figure out the business side even further of like, okay, I got to get an office. I'm assuming you formed some sort of LLC or something. You being a lawyer, I'm just—

yeah.

How did that go? Did, did it take some time to get that up and running? And did you have to hire people at first?

Um, well, so I was really unhappy in my job. And so I, every time I would come home unhappy, my husband would say, okay, what are you gonna do about it? And so then I would take a step in the formation process. Really, it took about a couple weeks. And by the time the LLC was formed, the bank account was formed, the EIN number had been obtained, we were ready to go.

Just dipped. You're like, I'm out. And then you had, okay, so now you have a business. Like how did you get some of your first clients?

So the firm I was at, I told them well in advance, like I'm unhappy, I'm going to be leaving. I gave them, I think, 3 months. Okay. You know, this is my proposal for a separation. Um, and I have some clients. I had a guy that was going to a 12-count jury trial, um, in 2 weeks before I left. And, and I told him—

And you can't take that with you, right?

You can. You can? It's your client's choice as to whether or not they're gonna go. And so when I went to the partners and I proposed this split, I had a list of cases that I said, You know, I believe these people are going to want to go with me. Um, and I propose that I take them. And so it was a negotiation at that point. Um, and I reached out to my clients and I said, hey, look, I'm leaving. I know that this is a jump, but I want you to go with me. And a lot of them did. And so that was my initial client base.

So whenever you're making like a proposal to other lawyers like that,

yeah.

Do y'all ever try to like out-lawyer each other?

I mean, I guess possibly some people do. It wasn't that type of situation in this case. They were very kind about it.

Okay.

They had dealt with people leaving before. The guy that I was talking to had done the same thing, and that's how he acquired this firm. Like, you just kind of get it. It wasn't personal. It was just not a great fit. Yeah. And So yeah.

Yeah. Okay, so like you started— how did you get your first ever client?

On my— like, without the transition?

Without the transition, because I would consider that to come from your previous.

Yeah, it came from the previous. Mostly it's word of mouth. I really haven't advertised anywhere, truly. Um, it's always been somebody who knew somebody or a previous client had referred. Um, my favorite are when I represented someone's other spouse and they've gotten their booty kicked and then they've referred whoever their friend is to me.

Got it.

So those are fun.

Yeah. So obviously, I mean, having referrals is tremendous and especially if you're a lawyer, 'cause I feel like there's not a ton of options out there that people at least know.

Yeah.

I know whenever I was last in a situation, I tried to find a person who could help me. And it's like most of the people that I knew were not in the right area, like expertise of what I needed. And so it was just like, was it family and friends type of thing at the beginning, or mainly just like personal friendships that had people that they knew were struggling or needed help with something?

When I was in Alaska, we didn't have family up there and we hadn't even been up there very long. And so it truly was previous clients referring their friends and family to the firm.

Yeah.

Um, or judges referring, um, other attorneys who maybe didn't practice family law referring cases.

Yeah.

There's pretty big referral network.

So when you first started, did you hire employees off the bat?

When I started, no, I—

Your private one. Yeah,

yeah, it was just me. Um, I did that for a couple of weeks and then very quickly found out I need to hire someone, at least to answer the phone. And so I was trying to figure out how to hire, who to hire, and I ended up hiring a remote receptionist. Through a company that answers legal phones. And that did not work out. My clients did not like that. And so then I started looking for an actual person who could be in the office. And so I hired someone probably within the first month.

And then you have to train them, I'm assuming.

Yes.

Was that pretty easy to transition that position?

No, not necessarily.

Because you're probably taking somebody who has Not a ton of legal experience,

right?

And teaching them how to handle these legal questions and that sort of thing.

Yeah. And hiring the right person and making sure that they understand that their, what their role is and what they can and cannot say.

Yeah.

Because you, at least my experience was I hired really good people who just wanted to be helpful.

Yeah.

And they're not attorneys. And they cannot give legal advice. And so their mantra has to be, okay, let me ask your attorney and get back to you. And that's really difficult for a lot of people because they want to help.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they may even know technically the answer,

right?

But they're not allowed to give it.

Right. Not unless we staff it and then I send them back with a response.

Okay. Like via email or something?

Or like my staff member will come in.

Oh, oh, okay.

Okay. I can staff it with them. And then they can go back and relay the message.

So that was your first hire?

Yes.

What was your second hire?

So my first hire, she was with me for a couple of months and she was in Alaska. And I, she remained in Alaska when I moved down to Texas. And so my second hire is still with me and she was my paralegal position. Office receptionists in Texas.

Okay. Yeah. How many clients could you take on? How many clients at one time did you, were you able to help in Alaska? I guess it goes the same here.

It varied based off of what type of case it was, how litigious it is, um, what stage of the case it is, and really what my support staff can manage.

Yeah.

Um, and so it's ranged from 20 to 150.

150 cases?

Yes.

At one time?

With the right staff.

Yeah.

With the right staff.

150 cases. Okay, so that's significantly more than I thought that you were gonna say.

Yeah.

Have you ever found yourself like Taking on too much on accident? Because I do that all the time.

I have found myself where I've had to turn away cases and I don't like doing that.

Yeah.

But there have been times where we just haven't accepted any new clients.

Yeah.

And that's a really hard call to make.

And are you the only lawyer or attorney there?

Yes.

Okay. So you're doing all of it, all the cases? Wow.

So I've had clients that have come in and I've told that because they want to think about whether or not they're ready to hire. And I'm usually pretty honest if I'm getting up to capacity where I say, okay, I have 2 slots. So if you want me to take your case,

yeah,

I need to know pretty quickly.

Yeah.

Because I'm only taking 2 more cases.

Yeah. Do you, do you typically Is that like Alaska and— because you have 2 locations, you said?

I do.

Is that both of them combined, the number of cases that you're working?

Yes, the majority of them are in Texas. Okay. I, um, am finishing my Alaska cases and then I will be closing.

Okay, so you're not going to keep that forever? You just— okay, okay.

No.

I was about to say, because then you could just fly back and forth.

You could. That's a long flight.

That's a lot of gas.

That is. And jet fuel.

Trust is the foundation of every single great business, and the Better Business Bureau exists to protect that. So the Better Business Bureau helps consumers find businesses they can trust, offers scam prevention resources, and supports local business owners through accreditation, networking, education, and visibility opportunities. Brittany Brown, she's the CEO. She's been serving the big country, and she says strong communities are built by strong businesses. Whether you're trying to grow your business or make a smarter purchasing decision, the Better Business Bureau is in your corner. Visit bbb.org to learn more. Um, dang. Okay, so how does the, the revenue from that look like if you're working 150 cases? And, and are they paying you hourly? Do you pay off of like Do you base pay off of something else or like, how does that work?

So it's, most of them are hourly. Family law cases are hourly.

Yeah.

Estate planning, we do some flat fees. Probate, sometimes we'll do flat fees, but generally it's hourly.

Okay.

Um, I, for my client's benefit, will put a lot of the legwork on my paralegals because their hourly is So much cheaper.

Yeah.

And so I actually—

what, what are the rates right now?

Um, they depend. So the senior paralegal is like $175.

Okay.

A junior paralegal is closer to $125.

Okay.

And receptionist is $50.

Okay. Um, and then to work with you, what does that look like?

$350 an hour.

Okay, cool. That's, that's what I've heard. Typical. Is that like a typical hourly rate?

It is. It's actually pretty low for industry.

And you get to Pick your rate, right?

You do.

Okay, so you could be like, okay, $1,000 an hour if the demand is there.

You could.

That's kind of nice. Could you do that if it's not your privately owned firm? Like if you don't own it?

As long as it's cleared by the partners. Okay. Yes. But usually in a firm where the partners are managing, they pick what the hourly rates are.

Okay. So I'm assuming you have to keep track of all of the hours and what you work.

Yes.

If you have 150 cases going on, say you work 30 minutes on this one, 20 minutes on this one, like, how do you keep track of that?

I have a really good software.

And you just hit like, this client, go. Yes. And you work and then you hit stop and it logs it.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes. So practically you're in front of your computer. I have a very large screen and so I'll have my software kind of running in the background and it is a stopwatch.

Okay.

So you hit start, you do what you need to do on the case.

Okay.

You hit stop. Phone calls, um, same thing.

It's like, oh, this person's calling me. I hit start. Does that ever wear you out?

It's exhausting.

I feel like that would be exhausting if I had to keep track of all that.

Yes.

Luckily there is software to do a lot of the lifting because I'll get bits like in the previous, um, couple years, if I get a bill from a lawyer, sometimes it'll be like 0.47 hours. I'm like, how in the world? That makes a lot of sense.

Yes.

So then you, okay, so like you start the timer, then you go start working on the case. Whenever you say you're working on the case, are you typically researching? Like,

so I, this is just my, yeah. I don't typically charge for research unless it's case specific.

Okay.

If it is just general knowledge, general statute, general case law, there is not a research charge. Now, if I have to do research, that is on my time. And I do that. If it is a minute issue that I talk to other attorneys and everybody's kind of going, hmm, I don't know.

Yeah.

Then there is a research Okay. Um, we have very good software for that. Yeah. And yes, you start your timer, you plug your prompts in, you generate your case law.

Yeah.

And then you're reviewing that case law.

Dang. That still blows my mind. 150 cases that you, do you currently have that many going? I

do.

Holy moly. Um, when it comes to like softwares and stuff. We heavily use AI. And so I would love to hear a take from a lawyer and about the whole AI situation, because some people I know are like, why would I, why would I pay a lawyer? I could just use AI. And I hear the same thing with my stuff, right? Like every industry struggling with this, with law being like contracts and that sort of thing. Have you adapted to this and kind of lean into it, or are you combating it? Or like, what are your thoughts on it?

I think the best thing is to embrace it at arm's length. AI can get people in a lot of trouble. Um, there's actually a recent case that came out where somebody had been using an AI and had been putting in their sensitive case information into the AI. Mm-hmm. Um, and it would spit out answers, which the answers were wrong, but that's not the moral of this story. Um, the other attorney on the other side found out that they were using AI because we can tell.

So, so was this— yeah, yeah, yeah. So that person, were— did they say that they were represented by counsel or, or they were just

pro se? They were

representing themselves and just using AI as the—

as their tool. Yes. So the other attorney found out that this pro se person was using AI. Well, that's subpoenaable. So he subpoenaed his AI records.

What does that mean?

That means I can get access to it. I can get access through a court subpoena of any prompt you put into AI.

To, uh, like ChatGPT or Claude or anything?

So, so this is not the facts of that case, but if this was a person who said, I committed this crime, how do I do, how do I draft a pleading? How do I do XYZ? Then you can get that prompt, which is an admission.

Okay.

So.

Wow.

Yes. That other attorney subpoenaed his inputs, his stuff he put into the AI machine, and it was used as admissions in court because there's no attorney-client relationship, right? Yeah. Anything you tell your attorney is going to be confidential.

Yeah.

That does not exist with AI.

Yeah. Wow. Okay. So was he able to leverage, like, how, I guess, how do you turn that? I guess you might look for a prompt that maybe contradicts what he's saying or something, or?

Absolutely. Yeah.

Do you get the responses as well?

Yes.

So you can see their whole conversation?

Yes.

That's awesome.

Yeah, you can. Um, some courts have gotten to the point where they will make people certify that they haven't used AI in generating their pleadings. It is really problematic because AI will hallucinate case law. I mean, we've all heard, um, some things that have happened recently where attorneys are putting, I think it was an attorney that put in stuff to an AI machine and it hallucinated case law and they lost their law license.

Whoa.

Yes.

Is it because they weren't double-checking what that thing said and like they put their name on it and it was wrong?

In large part, yeah.

So they lose their— it wasn't the fact that they used AI, it was the fact that they got it wrong.

Right. The fact that, because we have, as attorneys, we have professional rules of responsibility and we have a duty of candor to the court. Um, and so if an attorney is putting something in an AI machine and it is not correct, And you're representing that it is correct, that's a big issue. And so that's what they did and they lost their law license.

Are there any like specific AI tools targeted towards lawyers?

There are. So, some of our big research, there's really 2 big research companies, um, that back in the day, case law was in these massive books and you would have to go and look up the case law. on whatever you were researching. Yeah. Now it is on research platforms.

Okay.

And there's really 2 big ones in the industry, and they have started to incorporate AI into their research.

Got it.

There is a pretty big split between attorneys as to whether or not they like this.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I think some will probably adapt and start to utilize it. In those research settings where it is only pulling specifically from the big software. Yeah, it's really, it's Lexis and Westlaw. And so they're pulling directly from the cases within those.

Pulling directly from like the database.

Yes.

Without external influence of, yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And so some attorneys will probably get to where they use that. Others just won't do it.

Yeah, that's crazy. I never thought about it being able— like, you can access all of that, all of the other person's stuff if they're using AI, right? Does that— okay, have you studied AI very much?

I've like— it's very much a topic of Okay.

So like there's open source, so like ChatGPT and stuff, and then there's closed source, like on a local machine.

Right.

Can you subpoena the local machine use? Because you are technically, you're using LLMs, like learning language models, but you're not putting it on a server, like a public server. So do you think, and, and like, I don't, I don't know if you are able to answer this or not, but like, do you think you'd be able to subpoena that?

Probably.

Okay. Because it's not a lawyer.

It's not privileged. Yeah, it's, it's not confidential because any communications you're having are not.

Yeah. And that goes the same for like text messages and stuff, correct?

Absolutely.

So like,

even like, I had a murder case when I was in the district attorney's office where we had access to the pings off the tower and we could triangulate. I mean, you, you can subpoena so many things.

What does that mean? You,

um, so your cell phone is sending off signals and it's pinging off various towers. And so what we were able to do to locate this person who committed this murder was to get information of what cell towers their phone was pinging off of and then triangulate it.

Whoa.

To give us a—

Like an area?

Right, of where this individual was located at the time of the murder.

What year was that?

Recent.

Like this year sometime?

Um, no, it was probably within the last 3 years.

Okay.

Yeah.

Wow. So do you work with, I'm assuming, like police authorities in the situation? So like you, you would be like, okay, this is what we need to find, like I don't know how it works, but you're like, okay, this is the person we need to find, or do they decide that? Like, how does that— how do you work alongside law enforcement?

So this— that situation was when I was in the DA's office. So one thing, kind of hole in the story, when I moved back to Texas, um, I went into the district attorney's office in Brown County, um, for a short period of time. And so I was working there And so that situation was from when I was there. So as a prosecutor, you work with the police a lot. The police will do their investigation. They submit their investigation to a district attorney's office. The district attorney will then review it and determine whether or not it meets the elements and then go forward with either an indictment or whatever the next step is, or no bill it or whatever they decide to do. So in that context, yes, we absolutely worked with police a lot. Even on the family law side, we work with police a lot.

Yeah.

Because there is so much of an overlap, um, between criminal and family law. And when you're in these highly contentious family law cases, police get called often.

Yeah. To go to the house or whatever.

To go to the house. Yes. To assist with the civil standby, to help somebody get stuff out of the house, to be there for the custody exchanges. So we're very familiar with the various officers.

Wow. Okay, so let's, let's kind of pivot into— and I know you said you didn't do a ton of marketing in Alaska. Do you do a ton? Do you do any sort of marketing within Brownwood area?

Not, not really, or not intentionally. What What we invest in marketing-wise is stuff that is important specifically to me, right? So I have kids. So downtown Brownwood is doing like a trick-or-treating. We will absolutely participate in that because I think that is fun. Yeah. And I think kids enjoy that. And so we do community involvement. You know, there's a Christmas tree trail, which we will sponsor a tree. We're out and our, our brand is out, but we don't typically do ad spots on the radio. I mean, we have a website, we have Facebook, we do utilize social media to an extent. But it's—

Does social media world get weird with being a lawyer?

It can.

Because you can't say certain things?

It can. I mean, a lot of the stuff we put out on social media is, um, pretty educational.

Yeah.

Our goal on social media is to educate the public because the thought is if more people knew, they would act differently or adjust how they approach certain things.

Yeah.

So most of our social media is education. Some of it's fun.

Yeah.

But

do y'all do like videos on social media or is it like graphics or what do y'all do?

Mostly it's graphics. We have not done video yet. Um, there is going to be one coming up, um, where it is a conversation between myself and various attorneys, um, in different industries.

Podcast?

Possibly. Possibly. We'll see.

That's awesome.

Um, where we're just having the conversations about Well, one of my really close friends is an estate planning attorney and she's an elder law attorney and there is a lot of crossover there as well. And so just looking at how family law intersects with estate planning and elder law.

So, and then y'all in those cases, do y'all work together?

We do.

Okay.

Yeah.

So if you have a client who has a specific case and you're like, oh, I need to work with this other expertise lawyer or whatever, do you then— do they have to go and pay that other lawyer too? Or is it just kind of more of an internal, like, you help each other out type of thing?

It depends. Most of the time, if, if they're coming on to the case, they're going to be an expert and they have their own fee.

Okay.

Um, but sometimes it's It's just, hey, I have this question about this area of the law. I don't really do a whole lot. Mm-hmm. What are your thoughts? And that's not charged.

Okay. Okay. So I've always heard of, in my mind, like I had always thought, and it probably looks very different depending on the case, but I know there's settlements involved. There's like sometimes money exchanges. Between parties, say somebody's suing somebody for doing a certain thing in business or whatever. Do some lawyers charge based off of, like, do they charge like a percentage of the settlement amount at times? Because I see some of these lawyers, like, they're making crazy, crazy money. Mm-hmm. And I'm sure, I'm sure it's great money at hourly too, but Is that a thing? Like what, what industry or what area of law does that typically happen in?

So contingency-based fee agreements are usually something—

That's what I was trying. Yes.

Yeah. Usually personal injury, honestly. Um, or anyone who's doing insurance defense. Yeah. And really it's personal injury.

Yeah.

Malpractice sometimes.

So do you think they make more money than like every other?

Yes, absolutely.

Because I see like billboards everywhere from those guys.

Yes.

Like you'll see 6 back to back to back and each one's like $1,000, $2,000 a month. I'm like, God.

Yes, yes. Personal injury attorneys do tend to make the majority of the money in the legal industry. Um, yeah.

Is there a stigma around That contingency-based stuff in the, in the lawyer networks, like in the underground lawyer networks?

Not against contingency, but there certainly is a stigma about the different areas of practice.

Okay.

Um, yeah, like you will meet someone and know, okay, they're, they're a personal injury attorney.

Yeah.

And their personality definitely Like, oh, you don't

even have to tell me. Well, yeah, I already know.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's funny. Um, well, I'm trying to think. Oh, I don't, I don't want to ask that question. Um, have you ever thought about going into personal injury or anything like that?

I have not. That is not generally an area that I want to do. Um, maybe if the right case came along, possibly.

Yeah.

But no, I have friends that do personal injury and I'm happy to send them those referrals. Yeah. Um, they would—

Do those cases, or have you sat in on any of those cases?

I have.

Are they typically like messier or— Um,

I don't know that they're messier because I don't feel like you get any messier than messing with someone's kids. Yeah. But they tend to be a lot more tragic because if, if it's a personal injury case that has not settled and is going forward to litigation, it probably has some pretty intense facts. Yeah. Most of, probably 98% of personal injury cases settle.

Yeah. Okay, cool. Okay. So what would you say to someone? Because I know a lot of people have run into this problem. Something happens, right? Whether it's like with the family or, um, whatever the situation is. What if somebody doesn't have funding to pay for a lawyer? What would be, from a lawyer's perspective, the best plan of action for them?

Um, Really, there are some loans, practically speaking, that you can get for legal services. Um, you can borrow money from family members and friends. Yeah. But if they absolutely do not have money and cannot come up with money, if they're considered indigent, um, there are some legal aid services that Will have.

Which means what? What does indigent mean?

So if you make below a certain amount of money.

Okay. Okay. Very good.

If you cannot pay for a lawyer in the family law arena, I guess I should say this first. In the family law arena, generally you're not entitled to representation. In the criminal realm, absolutely.

Which means you get somebody to represent you.

If you cannot afford an attorney.

Okay.

One will be appointed to you.

Okay.

In the criminal realm, not in family. You're not entitled to an attorney in family law. Um, so if you cannot legally come up with the money to pay an attorney, you always have the option of representing yourself pro se.

Yeah,

I would do so cautiously.

Yeah. So like, what, what kind of— have you seen many people go pro se?

Most people don't.

Have you ever seen it before?

Yeah, absolutely.

How does that usually go?

Terribly.

Because?

Because not only do you have to prepare your case and present it, you have to follow the rules of evidence, the rules of civil procedure. Yeah, you— there is a way in which you have to question a witness, a way in which you have to introduce evidence.

And you don't know any of that if you're not, yeah.

And you don't know any of that. People coming out of law school and passing the bar exam still struggle with it. So,

you said there's like a certain way you have to provide evidence. Sure. If they go into a court case or a courtroom and they have evidence but don't know how to present it correctly, does the judge consider it not valid?

It, it does not get admitted. The judge never sees it.

Wow.

So you could come into court as a pro se litigant with a stack of text messages and you— there, what do you do with that? You know, how do you get that stack of texts?

You can't just be like—

Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. Right. There's a predicate in which you have to establish that it's true and accurate. It hasn't been modified in any way. It's a complete representation of the conversation. I mean, 3 or 4 questions to establish what this piece of evidence is. You have to mark it and then you have to submit it over another, an actual attorney's objection, which might be valid, right? Like, so if, you know, the text messages might be admissible, but what's within the text messages might not be admissible for hearsay or whatever.

There's just a lot of legal things that have to go on. Right. I've heard of people going pro se before.

Have you heard good stories?

Well, my lawyer wouldn't tell me necessarily because I asked them.

Yeah.

And, um, they were like, well, it could go either way. I'm like, obviously, but not really many legal or good stories.

No.

Which sucks. So like, it sucks for that person. Like, that's why I was asking, like, okay, what if you can't afford legal counsel? So like, what, are there any specific programs that you can think of off the top of your head that that person could go? Say somebody's listening right now.

Yeah, I mean, you, so, uh, Texas Legal Aid is one of them. Um, it depends on what they need, right? And so, and there are some attorneys who will represent people for free. I have done that. continue to do it if it's the right fact.

And it's— and that's like out of the kindness of your heart situation? Okay,

right. Yeah. Um, if somebody's in need of a protective order, um, the county attorney usually in the county that they live will represent them in that protective order proceeding. Um, you know, obviously if there's been some kind of criminal offense, then there's going to be protections in place for that person. But strictly on a family law side, if, if there's no immediate danger that would warrant a protective order or something like that, you're really not entitled. There are some self-help, um, information online that people can utilize, and there are people who neither side is represented and they will Try to represent themselves pro se. Some people are able to do it. Yeah. Some sometimes, and typically what I've done is if I have a lady or a man who comes to me and says, "Hey, look, we're in agreement. My my husband and I are in agreement. My wife and I are in agreement about who's going to get the kids, what our property is, how it's going to be split. We just don't know how to do the thing." I will represent one party because you cannot represent both. I will represent one of them. And do the filings and do the paperwork and help exchange the information and help with the drafting of the orders.

Yeah.

So that they can do it as cheaply as possible.

So how long does something like that usually take?

If it's agreed, 90 days.

Okay.

There's a cooling-off period in the state of Texas for divorce. 60 days usually. So from when the petition is filed, the earliest you can get divorced is usually 60 days after.

Yeah. Okay, interesting. Dang. So do you have any cases, or do you— are you working on any cases in Abilene right now?

I do.

Yeah. What— let's talk about what, um, areas you serve around this area, uh, because we have a lot of Abilene people listen to this one. And so do you come to Abilene often?

I do. Okay. Abilene, San Angelo, Brown County, Comanche County, Stephenville, and then Bexar County.

Are you ever going to open up a location here?

Possibly. Maybe.

What's, what's the future look like?

Uh, it depends on a lot of different things, but I do think, you know, I, with such a connection to San Antonio before I moved to Alaska and still having those relationships, I think that will probably be my next move is branching back into San Antonio. There are some partnership agreements that have kind of been floated for what that would look like and what other attorneys would be kind of boots on the ground every day there. So I think that would probably be the next location and then certainly Abilene.

Yeah. So, so is that really like the main way to scale? this type of business is to open up multiple locations.

This type of business is hard because you're battling, you are the service and you're also the bottleneck, right?

Which, which I feel like is similar with real estate agents. Like in terms of you're the agent, you, you're the person helping them. And so Is it, would it just be like partnering with other attorneys and like maybe percentages agreement on other cities and revenue or like how does, how would that work?

Yes, most likely that would probably be the one that makes the most sense.

Yeah.

Um, because one attorney can only carry so many cases and, you know, in smaller markets where we don't have a law school, there's not attorneys really wanting to come to Brownwood, to Abilene, unless they have ties here.

Yeah.

Um, and so you're waiting for that unicorn who comes in, who doesn't want to open their own firm, who wants to work under someone else. Uh, either it's, whether it's to learn the trade or to get experience or, you know, or whatever their reasons are.

Yeah.

So I would love to hire another attorney and kind of feed them some cases.

Yeah.

It's just not available right now.

Yeah. Okay, so whenever, whenever you're kind of thinking about expanding, how much does it cost, you think, to run something like that? Say you open up one, open up a location in San Antonio.

Yeah.

How much capital do you need to get that like going? And, and for like a year, how much does it cost to run that thing?

Really? I mean, you need a space. Face, right? Because most people want to meet their attorneys in their office. It's not really an industry where you can get away with not having an office. That's going to be—

oh, meet me at my house.

Yeah, people are going to disagree with that because there are some attorneys that do have virtual offices and staff and they do great. I have not figured out how to do that yet,

at least around here.

Right.

Like in this area, I'm sure Brownwood's very similar to Abilene. People like face to face. A lot,

right? They want to see who they're dealing with. Um, and so, so certainly an office space, and then you just have like the nuts and bolts of like furniture and the software and all of the things that you need in order to—

People.

Yes.

Wages are expensive.

Yes. Yeah, I'm pretty conservative when it comes to money.

Yeah.

Uh, so I usually want to have at least 3 months worth of wages for employees.

Yeah.

Um, because you're never guaranteed the next case.

Which is very smart.

It's terrifying though too, because sometimes it takes a while to build up 3 months worth of wages and the benefits and all the things that your, your people need.

Yeah.

And then,

and they're relying on you as the business owner.

Right.

That's the kind of pressure that you don't ever realize.

Right.

That's a big pressure.

Certainly, because, you know, you're used to being responsible for yourself and your family and your kids and your needs. And then to tie into, I have these employees I care about and I meet their kids and I, you know, and so you, so many layers of responsibility for your employees.

Yeah.

And their families.

Yeah. And you gotta pay their payroll.

Yes.

Has there ever been a moment where like, Maybe there's like a crossover of like invoices. Like there's like a period of like a month where it's like, okay, I know this is coming, but it's like I have to wait on the payment. Has there ever been a moment for you where you're like, crap, I don't know if I'm going to make payroll?

Yeah. People don't like to pay their attorneys, believe it or not. And so sometimes we don't get paid. And then what do you do? Yeah. How do you Pay your employees. And there's been times that I have not taken a paycheck because my employees needed to get paid.

Yeah.

And we needed to keep the lights on. And I think that's just, you know, a founder, someone who's starting out, that's kind of what you sign up for.

And, uh, and every— I feel like every business goes through that same thing. I mean, like, there's been times where I would go a month and a half without being paid, but then like the next month, like, it would be the most I've been paid ever in my entire life. So Very real. Yes, very real. Um, it's smart to have 3 months of— did you get that from like Dave Ramsey or something?

No, I got that from Chris Cadenhead. It's my dad. Well, that's—

yeah, that's very smart. I, I try to do that with the personal finances and the business finances too, which business I'm like, it costs that much a month to run this thing, and it's like, okay, now I need $40,000 saved up just sitting there.

Right.

And so it definitely can be difficult. So, yeah, cool. Um, where can people find you?

Um, so cklaw.org is our website. Um, that's how most people get in touch with us. Or just call the office. Um, our girls are great. They are there Monday through Friday, 8 to 5. Boom. People call in and they have questions, they will point them in the right direction.

Boom. What would you say to somebody who is on the fence about maybe going and starting their own practice or business?

So one of my really close girlfriends just did this. Um, absolutely do it if it's something that you have a desire to do. And you're trying to do it because you think that that it's going to be enjoyable, then absolutely do it. I'm a huge proponent. There are some people that will ask me about it, and I'll say maybe maybe not. Like the girlfriend that just started hers, we talked about it several years ago, and she just had a baby, and it's like that was a very real conversation of like. Is this truly something you want to do right now? And ultimately, at the time, she decided no. But now, 2 years later, it's a little bit different.

Having a kid definitely makes you think hard about the decisions that you make. That's what happened to us. And my wife was working at a school and she loved her job. Like, she loves kids, all the things. And as soon as we had our 1-year-old, she's 1 and almost 1 and a half now. We're like, okay, what is actually important? Like,

right?

So we, by the grace of God, she has been able to stay home with her, which has been awesome, even if it's for the time being. And if we have another one, then she's just gonna probably continue to stay home.

Yeah,

but that's awesome. It definitely makes you think about decisions.

Absolutely.

Because then it makes me work harder too, because like, okay, I have to go and Do this.

Um, but one of the great things about owning your own firm, owning your own business, is you do get to make your own hours.

Yeah.

And so,

and nobody is technically telling you you have to be here from this time to this time.

Yes. And so I will frequently go watch my daughter cheer or go watch her do whatever she's doing. And that's nothing I could have done In big law, because big law, there's an expectation of you're going to be in your desk at this time to this time, uh, whether or not you want to be or not.

Yeah.

So there is a level of flexibility that's just phenomenal.

Yeah.

I'm also working at 9, 10 o'clock at night, but there's a trade-off.

Yeah. You get to make the events. I think that alone is worth it.

Yes, absolutely.

Um, well, that's awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the podcast today.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Hope you guys enjoyed today's episode. Make sure to go check out the other episodes. Go check her out at the website cklaw.org and all the social media platforms. Um, we'll be collaborating with them, and it's gonna be a link in the description down below. We'll see you next time. Peace.