Matters of the Heart with Dr. Thema

Hey, girl. Welcome to the get yout Guy Coaching podcast. My name is Anwar White, but you can just call me your own personal dating and relationship coach. Each week you'll hear actionable advice, tips and strategies that you can implement in your own love life. I'm talking about healing your heart, dating effectively, and understanding men so that you can, you guessed it, get your guy. Are you ready to level up your love life? All right, let's go.

Hello, hello, hello, all of my get your guy coaching listeners. I'm so happy that you've joined me today. And I have a very special guest, Dr. Chema. She has written an amazing book called Matters of the Heart. And I wanted her to come on especially to talk to the listeners of this podcast because I think that this book is a game changer, especially when you are doing your own healing work and really making that transformation that I think so many of us need. And I just felt like she would be the perfect person to come on and help us kind of take that first step for those that need that first step, but also to help us maintain and actually navigate this journey together. So, Dr. Tema, thank you so much for being here. Girl, how you doing?

Oh, I am doing wonderful. I'm excited, excited to speak with you and just grateful for the launch of this book. When I wrote one of my prior books, Homecoming, we were in the midst of the pandemic, so bookstores wouldn't let you gather. So it's been just such a joy to be able to connect with people around the words.

Yeah, amazing. Girl, we saw you on Oprah last week.

Girl, how was that?

Talk about was amazing. I'm so, so grateful to her and for her audience. For those who listen to the interview, you would know when I was younger, she attended my dad's church, so my dad was her pastor. And so it was like this full circle moment. And at the time, she didn't have her own show. She was a newscaster. So from, like being a little black girl in Baltimore, seeing her on the news, seeing her at church and all that she is and has become, to then be able to sit and talk with her about my book was such a joy.

Yeah, amazing, amazing. So, girl, we're going to have to get into this book a little bit first. Why don't you just introduce yourself for the listeners out there that might not know or have heard of amazingness yet.

Oh, thank you. So I'm Dr. Tama Bryant. I'm a licensed psychologist, professor of psychology at Pepperdine University. Yes.

Malibu.

Yes. I'm Also an ordained minister in the African Methodist Episcopal Church. I really focus on mental health ministry and women's ministry. And I'm also a sacred artist. So I love poetry and love dance, all of the different ways that we heal. I'm a mom of two, and my kids are if they. And I.O. and those names means love and joy. So I am. And I call it my jubilee season. Last year, I turned 50.

Amazing.

So I am grateful for all the mountains climbed and all the lessons learned to be able to be and this season of my life very much authentically at home with myself.

Yeah, I love that. And I'm so. I'm so, like, just amazed that you were talking about just you being a poet, because I felt like this book was very poetic in nature. I want to kind of maybe talk to you a little bit about what inspired you to, like, this amazing book Matters.

Oh, thank you. So the book focuses on relationships, relationship with yourself and relationship with others. And as a psychologist who focuses a lot on healing trauma, one of the big predictors of how we heal and how we do in life is based in our relationships. And you all know when you're in your seasons of your life, when you have, like, a bestie or you have, like, a loving partner, or you come from a foundation, a family that really cares about you, that can boost your esteem and help you get through the challenges of life. And likewise, when you're going through a breakup or when you've been betrayed by a friend, that can create all kinds of distress and despair in your life. So I think it's so important to help people get relationships right, which is why I so love your work and the work that you're doing to help people get that, because it's important. It not only affects our social life, but it affects our mental health. It can affect your financial health. Choosing well and nourishing it well can help us to thrive.

Yeah, 100%. Okay, so we're gonna have to get into some of the topics of the book. Okay.

Yeah.

I really want the ladies who are listening to this podcast to really delve into it and also be inspired to read it in its in totality. But you talk a lot about self compassion and the importance of it. Right. I want to get from you exactly why you think so many people, specifically, though, women of color, black women, struggle with being kind to themselves. And, like, also just, like, how we can start to shift that. That mindset.

Right, Right. I so appreciate the question because it is a specific narrative in terms of our story and what happens to us as women of color, as black women, Latinas, Asians women, indigenous women, we're often raised to be caretakers. And sometimes the model of being a caretaker includes self neglect, that you get praised for self sacrifice. And often we're given the message that to take care of yourself is selfish in a bad way. And so then we can erase ourselves, we can abandon ourselves and it gets celebrated. You know, so that whole notion of like, I want someone who's ride or die me, or like you gotta be with someone through their struggle stage so that you can then have a happy stage.

Right. You ride or die, you're gonna die, you're gonna die.

You're, you're not riding anywhere. You're, you're dying. So yeah, we get, we get taught it, we get praised. It is often how we raise our daughters. There's a saying of we love our sons and raise our daughters. And so we are taught to be diligent, to be hard working and to not have a lot of needs. You don't want to be a needy woman.

Right.

So then we, we will be celebrated if we're easygoing, meaning we'll go along with anything. And so that affects us physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and is for other people's benefit. So either the people we're in relationship benefit, but we are not receiving or even some of these jobs where a friend of mine had to say, you know, you're building up these other people's institution while neglecting yourself.

Right.

And so whether you have prioritized work or prioritize people to. And the cost has been our own piece. Yeah, yeah.

One of the things that I often like, do with my clients and in my work is, you know, so many times like women, black women or women of color specifically, they will advocate and be so compassionate to other people that I have to actually ask them. Okay, so if, if you were your own best friend.

Yes. Yes.

How would you actually navigate this? What would you tell to yourself? I love to, I'd love to understand a little bit about how we can start to kind shift that mindset when it comes to like self compassion and starting to be a little bit maybe more selfish or self centered.

Yes. For us to recognize we are worthy of the care we so desperately want to give other people. And so what would it look like for me to take care of myself holistically? So then you become intentional about not waiting until you burn out or break down. That's often what we do. We work until we drop and then we're like, oh, I Need a day off. So that's very reactive. But you want to think about, in my daily living, what am I doing for my mental health? What am I doing for my physical health? What am I doing for my spiritual health? What am I doing that nourishes me? What am I doing for my joy, for my fun? And it's not something I have to earn just by virtue of being a human being. I deserve it. I deserve it. And then in our parenting, for those of us who are parents, you can model that or even if you're a mentor or a friend, to let people. Because sometimes we'll hide that aspect because of shame or this false notion of I need to always be busy and booked. So to openly talk about, what are you doing Saturday? Nothing. And I'm excited about it. Right. To do it and broadcast it. So we change the narrative.

Yeah. You mentioned worthiness and deservedness, and I want to kind of just talk a little bit about that. Because for women of color, oftentimes you're having so many messages telling you the exact opposite. So how can you drown that out and create your own narratives around that? Do you have ways in which you help people do that? Because you say this all day long, but, like, it can kind of go in one ear and out the other and it doesn't necessarily stick, so.

That's right.

You've seen it. Be able for people to really internalize.

That is such a great question. And that's why I intentionally use words like radical and revolutionary. Because it is a bold, a bodacious move to receive all of those messages that tell you you are unworthy. And for you to declare I'm worthy and for us to declare to each other that we are worthy. And even when you don't yet fully believe it, to treat yourself as if you believed it. What would a worthy woman do if this person has already stood you up and they call back, what would a worthy woman do? When people offer you a job and want to lowball you in terms of your pay, even if I struggle with insecurity, let me act as if I was worthy. Let me treat myself as if I'm worthy. And then in my actions, I can start to heal the parts of myself that feel unworthy. It also means, and this has been a message that I know you teach, cutting off people who make you feel unworthy. If I surround myself with so called friends or dating partners who mistreat me or family. Or family. Come on. Yeah, gotta go. Who undermine you and make you question your worth, then those are not healthy connections or healthy relationships. And I would say, because I know some people have a thing about not, quote, unquote, cutting off family, I would say, to reduce your time, do you have to give them your whole holiday? Do you have to give them your whole weekend? And to set a standard of if certain things are said or done, I give myself permission to leave early to say, you know, I don't have to continue to subject myself to this.

Yeah, I love that. Let's talk a little bit about self forgiveness, because I know that that is such a key part of healing. Right. As we talk about this transformation and doing as if we have to kind of heal before we get there. Right, right. So, you know, that's obviously a very important part of the book, But I would love to just hear from you, like any sort of example or personal story where, you know, you've had to forgive yourself and how that's played a role in your own life.

Yes. Yeah, I love that question. And we often think about forgiving other people, but don't always recognize the ways that we're mad at ourselves or disappointed in ourselves. And as a result of that, we can place ourselves in timeout. Right. Because we don't trust ourselves. So my own, I would say, most vivid experience of that when I hear the question is, when I was a college student back at Duke University, I went home for one of the breaks. And I was growing up in Baltimore, so I went back to Baltimore, and a man who was a member of our church, who had been a friend of our family, had been in my home many times, showed up at my home. Nobody else was there. And I opened the door and let him in, and this man sexually assaulted me. Now, or many survivors will be able to relate to this, a part of me was upset with me for opening the door. Right. What happens as survivors is we replace scenarios in our minds and try to think of, like, what I could have done differently. And it's important. It was important for me to release myself from blaming myself for someone else's behavior. So, you know, this person was deceptive. This person had earned the trust not only of me, but of my family. And literally, after assaulting me on his way out the door, said, you're still my little sister. Right. Because he had known me over years. And I was, of course, just in a place of being stunned and shocked and devastated. And so I think about the ways in which we often blame ourselves for other people harming us, for other people hurting us. And so for me, it was really important for me to get to a place of clarity that there's no way I could have known and that I should be able to open the door to someone I know. Right. I should. That there is no shame in trusting the shame. And the blame goes to the person who dishonored the trust. So that was an important part of my healing.

Thank you so much for sharing that. And I'm sure that so many women out there can relate. Unfortunately.

Yes.

That experience.

Yeah.

And I'm just. I'm so grateful for you sharing that and sharing it in a way that feels very healed, very centered. Right. And I hope that the women that are listening to this can also get there if they aren't there already. And I think part of that healing has come from you kind of forgiving yourself.

Thank you. Thank you. And. And I will say that many times, you know, the reason we blame ourselves are these social messages we get. So some of some people may have been blamed because you were drinking, or some people were blamed because of the outfit you wore, or some people are blamed because you went there. I used to coordinate the sexual assault office on a college campus, and I had one of the administrators say to me during the interview process, well, why do the girls let them in their room? It's like, did you not go to college? Like you're. You don't. Yeah. Your room is just. It doesn't mean anything. Right. People come by to visit people and that's not right. Yeah. So. So I want to say for the. The stories we have told ourselves as well as the stories other people have told you to blame you for victimization, that none of that is true and that we are each deserving of care, of respect, and the honoring of our consent or lack of consent.

Yeah. Yeah.

I know. When I think about how we're raised.

Yes.

I'm touching my black skin.

Yes.

You know that oftentimes there is a lot of self blame that happens. Even if you're a kid running in the house and you fall. Right. It's like you should have been running. That's why you fell.

Yeah.

That's what. That's why you fell and got hurt. Right.

Yeah. So, you know, all these messages of you're responsible for holding the world. Right. That everything is on you. There was. Chris Rock was doing this stand up routine about like everybody having that person in the family who's like basically a known pedophile. But then. And the example he gave and you hear then the audience doing this laugh that I feel was like a painful laugh, but he Was saying, like, you know, if this uncle gets you, then the family's response is, why did you go over there? Everybody knows not to go around uncle such and such. So again, these narratives from a very early age, being held responsible for things that are not you. Yeah.

Yeah. Again, thank you for sharing that.

Yeah, thanks for the question.

Of course.

You also mentioned the importance of green lights as we're talking about, like, what's dangerous, maybe what's not so dangerous.

Yeah.

Yes. Let's talk about some of the positive signs. Right. A relationship is healthy and, you know, I'd love to understand a little bit more about kind of what important green lights. Right. People should really be looking out for.

Yes. So an important green light is clear communication of interest. So, yeah, confusion is confusion. Mixed messages are mixed messages. So a green light is when someone can express to you not only in words, but behavior that matches their interest for you, their care about you, or getting to know you. And that is consistent over time. So I won't go into the reverse. Right. That's the red light. The green light is consistent. Expressed interest and care is a green light. Another green light is self awareness. So listening to how people talk about their prior relationships, and if everything is always someone else's fault, there's a lack of growth. But if I can say to you.

The way my mindset at the time, man, I showed up in this kind of way and, you know, I've grown since then, or I've learned more about myself, I've learned about relationships. If there's self accountability and self awareness, that's a beautiful green light.

I think is.

Yes. Right, Right.

Anybody can answer it once you ask it, girl.

Yes. That spontaneous sharing is there. That's a good green light.

Yeah.

When someone has a curiosity about you, that's a green light versus someone who only talks about themselves. Right. They're just like hawking up all the time. It's more like a monologue instead of a dialogue. Being able to hold conversation, I have to say, is a green light. It's not that everyone has to be the most talkative person, but there's a sense of ease there in terms of the sharing and it being mutual.

I would say another green light is how you observe them treating other people.

So you know how they treat people in a restaurant, how they treat elders, how they. They meet your friends and family, how they treat them. So. Because sometimes people will show you one thing toward yourself, but you want to observe. Yeah. How do they treat others? So those are some important green lights.

I'm so glad that you mentioned these because not just romantically, but in other relationships as well, including ourselves, we have to continue to be observant of and to. I think it's important to do like regular check ins with yourself, but like also your relationships, your friends, your family.

I call it your life relationship inventories where you're figuring out are, are these individuals, including myself.

Yes.

Are they fulfilling my needs? Are they highlighting, are they demonstrating these green lights? And if not, do I need to set some boundaries or do I need to step away?

Yes, absolutely.

I think just like adding the regular check ins is something that's important because a lot of us will hold on to these relationships because, well, we were friends in college or I've known this person my entire life. But it doesn't really reflect. They're not giving you any green lights now.

Right over. And that's a big one. I'm glad you named that because we can so prioritize loyalty that we're loyal to things that are killing us. Loyal to people who are standing on our wings just because we've known them our whole lives. And so being willing to say some things are seasonal. I like to say in this kind of religious talk of there could be an inner court and an outer court. So it may not be like I'm totally cutting off this friend, but I don't spend the most time with them. That because our values don't align anymore. Our way of dealing with things, you know, is. Yeah, it doesn't match. If I see lack of integrity, then, you know, I can still be cordial, I can be kind. But in terms of my inner court, those are people who align with the me of today.

Yeah. And what do you say to people? Because I can already hear my listeners. I'm 0 or 100. I'm either in it or I'm not. I can't do this inner. This outer court, court, whatever. What do you say to them?

Right.

Like are very extreme. Right. I mean they're all in like my inner. My outer. They feel like they have to align.

Right? Yes. So I would say because people think differently, can you still be cordial? So you might. They may be misinterpreting outer court. So outer court is like an acquaintance. Or is it that if people don't agree with you, you have to go off on them or you have to talk bad about them? That's an indication of our own womb. When I feel the need to badmouth people who I'm not close with, I can release them in peace.

Yeah. Most definitely.

You talked about kind of self awareness and communication. And one of the things that I hear a lot, especially as the theme of your book is around emotional availability as well. And so I'd love to also talk a little more about, you know, why you believe that so many people, specifically women of color, struggle with emotional availability. And obviously, you know, we're solutions oriented here, what they can do about it.

Right, right.

Open themselves, their hearts to relationships in a different way.

Yeah. So many of us have been hurt, have been disappointed, have been betrayed. I mentioned sexual assault. But also many people have had experiences with not only unhealthy relationships, but even abusive relationships or toxic relationships. So I pause first to say, when you are hesitant about opening up and sharing yourself with people, given your life's journey, that may be very understandable. Not only your life's journey, but then some of us were raised by people who had very unhealthy relationships. So the lessons they might have taught you or what they demonstrated to you also put you in a place of avoidance and anxiety and distrust. So, you know, we start with self compassion for like I understand why I'm like this and I would actually like connection. So when those things coexist we can start to self sabotage. Right. So I desire connection, but fundamentally I don't trust anyone. So now I treat you like I don't trust you and that drives you away. Right. So we want to begin to think about how we can start to shift our behavior to even consider the possibility that not everyone is going to do what the worst people did. So what helps me to build confidence in that possibility? You know, scan my environment. Do I see anyone or do I know anyone who is genuinely a caring person, Maybe not perfect, but caring and owns up to things when they mess up. Right. So we look for evidence instead of just piling up all the evidence that things are going to be terrible. Right. So we, yeah, you see those examples, do you see anything that would lead you to have some hope? Which is why we want to be careful about who we surround ourselves with. Because if everybody around you doesn't trust and everybody around you is super guarded, it's going to inspire that we want to start trying to be more open. And this is the gradual part, some of us, because we didn't learn it as you were describing, we're awful or on. And when we decide to be open, some of us say too much too soon. So you're on the first date telling people your whole life story telling, giving them all this information and you have not Felt out who this person is and then, you know, for whatever reason, they don't call back for a second date. And now you convince yourself openness is the problem.

Right.

Instead of, let me give them a peace, like friendship and relationship can develop over time. So let me share some. And then I see how they handle the sum of what I shared. And that lets me know, is this good ground for me to share more?

Yeah, definitely. I see as you, I'm so glad you pointed it out because I see both extremes, right. Where it's like, I'm not giving you anything and then I'm giving you way too much. And for the women that I see that don't give anything, I always say, and I think it's important to understand, especially in today's climate, that.

Your vulnerability and your emotional availability is actually a superpower. And it actually can help you in the dating landscape, at least help you to evaluate who has the emotional capacity and sensitivity to actually be a great partner. You won't get that unless you are vulnerable and you're able to observe the actual response of that vulnerability. But because most women aren't doing that, actually you're missing an opportunity to see if this person's going to be a great partner. Right. And so it's, it's a huge missed opportunity. So that's one thing that I see.

Yeah. That what we can miss from it. I love the framing of it as superpower. And I would say, you know, to learn from our past hurts in terms of the people you were vulnerable with or open with, who misused it. Right. Or who disappointed you. Can we in hindsight, not in self blame, but in hindsight, do I see any early indicators, Do I see any similarities between them? So that I can start to observe and learn who are people who aren't just going to fumble my heart, but who demonstrate even from their past history, to have a caring nature, to operate in integrity, and then for me to. Because sometimes people don't know they're emotionally unavailable.

Recognize their own path. Right. If I'm always drawn to people who are already with someone else, I continue to make myself the side person. That's a sign of emotional unavailability. So I know it's only going to go so far. So you want to start to pay attention to, you know, am I a part of the problem? Instead of me saying how come no one's ever reciprocating? It could be my picking is based in my own unavailability.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Good.

One of the most interesting parts of your book that I wanted to talk about, that I thought would be very, very important, especially for women of color, is the difference between being assertive and being aggressive. Because I think a lot of us, right, because of our lived experience, we have to be either assertive or aggressive. There's sometimes a fine line in life. And so I would love for you to kind of explain what that difference is and how someone can communicate their needs without coming across as, let's say, harsh or control.

Yes, I love that. And such an important question because many of us don't know the difference. And so think in order to not be a doormat, I have to be aggressive. Or we approach things as they are, winners and losers. And I'm going to win. I'm never going to be the loser. But then I'm. I'm approaching it. I call it living in combat mode. Right. And I want to first, especially because we are talking about women of color and think about black women, I want to first say there are some people who are going to be committed to misunderstanding you no matter what. Right. That I think many of us can relate to times when you said things very calmly, that it was a very reasonable statement, just you were standing up for yourself and people got upset. Whether we talk about it in the office, people not liking black women in leadership and saying they are afraid of you, or in romantic relationships where people just get upset because you have a voice. So that's one thing we don't have.

Necessary control over other people's stereotyping of us, especially when it's not rooted in reality. But in terms of our part, there are times where I have witnessed, provided counseling for, had family members, had friends who were operating in more aggression than assertiveness. So aggression is more. What is more pronounced is an anger and even a violence. Aggression is an attempt to put down someone else, to put yourself over someone else, to use control, to use power and control in an abusive way, in a harmful and a hurtful way. Versus assertiveness is rooted in a place of clarity. Assertiveness is rooted in a place of being clear about who I am and that that does not require a devaluing of you. When I'm assertive, I am also moving in such a way that I'm being intentional, so I'm not out of control. Like I'm thoughtful about what it is I want to say.

And when you say aggression or aggressiveness is a bit out of control.

Yes, it feels like. And I'm not going to just say for the people who are Witnessing it or the person themselves, they're not sure what they're about to do. Like, it just, you know, it. You've had like an. In an inner eruption of your emotions, perhaps feeling triggered of like, no one's going to disrespect me. And now you think about all the other times you've been disrespected and you are responding at a level 10 to a level 2 situation. So that is a difference. So you know what can help us to be assertive but not aggressive is I like to use the phrase taking sacred pause. Like, sometimes we think we have to say something immediately. Now there are times where, like, you do need to respond quickly. There are other times where I can take a breather and come back to this. Whether that's like a short breath just to think about, you know, how I want to respond or what I want to say. It may be a longer break where I check in with people. Let's say something happened at work in a meeting, and I feel like it was off the chain. But I also have, like, very good friends that I trust. So I could call them later and say, now, if we were in the meeting and they said this, people who. Your wisdom circle, right? People who can give you, like, wise counsel and perspective. And those are people who don't always agree with you. Right. So if you're in the right, then yes, they will affirm that. But then there are also times where they may say, well, I don't know, right. If that's really what you're thinking, you know, so give yourself sacred pause if you have time to be able to reflect with yourself or talk to your wisdom circle. And then as I'm addressing it, to be clear that I, I don't need to dishonor or disrespect or even scare someone in order to make my point right now. If they're just scared because I'm a black woman speaking, that's on them. But I, in my tone and in my body language, that that's. That I'm intentional about the ways I want to show up in that space. Because here's the thing.

You think about, like, what is it I'm trying to accomplish with my communication, right? What do I want? And am I blocking what I want by the way I'm speaking about it or the way I'm addressing it?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I love that. And I think a lot of people are going to get. Get that because I think some people think that they're being assertive. And no, girl, you're actually being really aggressive right now.

Yes, yes. Right. You're, you know, you're in fight mode and there have been times in your life where you had to fight, but this is not one of them. And sometimes we have what called in psychology a self fulfilling prophecy. So I can act in a certain way that then creates a dynamic. Right. I was talking to a black woman and she was going in for a job interview and she was already convinced they weren't going to consider her. And as she's describing the interview, she went in there aggressive. Right. She went in there already anticipating the rejection. And so things that were like a regular interview question, she was responding with hostility. Right. And so she didn't go to the next round. So, you know, are, you know, the realities of racism and sexism, all of that is very real. And we also want to be mindful of. Are there any ways that I am creating a wall? Are there any. So I just want to do my part and I'm going to do what I can do, and then there are parts of it that are not within my control and people are going to decide what they want to decide. But I don't want to block my own blessing.

Right, right. So this woman that you're talking about who kind of came into that interview with hostility, what are some of the ways that women who are tough or who often are in an aggressive mode can really learn to embrace gentleness? Right. Because I know the power of gentleness is something that is very important.

In this and how we navigate the world. So what are some of the ways in which we can kind of do it a different way?

Right. Yes. So I would say it takes practice and realizing that it's not fake. Some people associate being nice with being fake, and to them, being real is being mean and harsh. So when you think that way, you show up to everything that way because you think that's you keeping it real. Well, that really is you showing up to fight people who didn't want to fight you.

So you're keeping it real, real, mean.

You're keeping it real, mean.

Yes. So then it takes practice, because your inclination, like what you would normally do, may be the aggressive mode, and you have identified that as being authentic, as being yourself, whereas you perhaps didn't have the safety or permission earlier in life to develop other aspects of yourself. So I will affirm that there are moments, seasons, situations where you need warrior mode, you to show up, but that's not every circumstance. So then we want to start to practice, and that's why, even in therapy, sometimes we'll do role plays of like, okay, so you show up for this family meal, and your aunt says, like, you still wearing your hair like that? Okay, all right, so she didn't like your hair. But in the grand scheme of things, that doesn't require a level 10 response. So let's think about what you might say or not say or what you might do or might not do. Because what happens is people are stuck in this mode of, like, I had to talk about her, her family, her. This. Like, I had to do it. It's like, did you. Did you. You chose to. You didn't have to. You chose to. So for us.

So in a situation like that, what would. What would you recommend that we respond or how would you respond?

Yeah, so I would say, you know, it depends on your personality. And I say personality because, like, for example, I have a brother. He's a joker, right? So his natural response would be like to say a joke back to her. And that wouldn't take a lot out of him, actually. He would be laughing at his own joke, and probably everybody else would laugh. But if that's not your style, like, I would sit there trying to come up with a joke because I'm just. That's not me. So it needs to match you, but also match.

The circumstance, the level of the offense. So I often tell people to take a pause and think about, on a scale 1 to 10, how dishonoring was this? So then I want my response to match the level of offense so that I'm not giving everything level 10 of my energy. That's draining for you. It's exhausting for you. And what I also have to check in with myself about is.

There'S a part of me. Is a part of me still waiting for her validation. Right?

She says it every year. Right.

So why does it really affecting me?

Yes, yes. And why do I feel like I would be weak if I didn't tear her apart? You know, so now it's like, you know, this older woman who, as you know, is not fully joyful in her life herself, right? And so she, you know, is raising the time with. With perms, and you got this little afro, and it's bothering her, okay. And she thinks if she insults you every year, you'll finally go get your perm. So then you have to say, like, what is the level of investment? Right? I want to give that. So it may be that I say nothing. It may be I make a joke. It may be that I, you know, assertively say, you know what? Every year you have something negative to say about my appearance, and I really don't like it if you don't have something positive to say to me. You could really not say anything at all. Right. I haven't dishonored her. I haven't used all my energy. You know, I just said it very calmly. I don't like it.

Right. I love that.

I love that.

Boundaries.

Yes, yes, Boundaries.

And also as another approach, because I know, as you say, everybody has a different personality. For my intellectual girls ask that curious question. Right. Well, what did you mean by that exactly?

Yeah, yeah. She could say, I can't believe you came out the house.

Girl who is your mammy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, good. I know that. Thank you for sharing that, by the way. I think it's super helpful, and I think it really aligns with so many different, like, exercises that you have in this book. Right. I know one of them is like writing a love letter to yourself, but I wanted to kind of understand from you, like, which exercise did you find most impactful?

Yeah. The activity I think that I love the most is.

Getting more real with our answers in terms of deepening intimacy. Right. This can be with friends as well, that often people say, how are you? We say, fine. We say amazing. If we're churchy, we say blessed, but we're not giving a real answer. And so to say to yourself, this week, I'm going to practice when people ask me a question, giving a real answer and a part of what can help us to give a real answer is to know you can feel more than one thing at the same time. So I may say I'm feeling fine, but I'm a little tired. Right. I'm feeling blessed. But I'm also worried about this and this now. Sure. Strangers on the street who are just giving you a routine, how are you? You don't have to, like, give that. But people who I claim are my friends or family members I care about, let me start being more honest in my sharing.

I love that.

I love that.

I say that all the time. Okay, fine. It doesn't mean anything.

That means nothing.

I still don't know how you feeling, girl. So you gotta give me an emotional.

Yes, give me some more. Right?

Yeah, I love that. I love that for the listeners that are kind of, like, intently. Right. Listening to this and, like, are inspired to start their own healing journey. Right. What is, like, a small step that they can take, Right. To get the ball rolling. Because we know once you start, that momentum will help you continue. So what is the first step that so many ladies can take today?

Yes. Well, I will say, especially relevant to your audience, people who are wanting relationship and we talk about, like relating to yourself. So most people are familiar with marriage vows, and I encourage people to write vows to themselves. So I promise to honor myself. I promise to love myself in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, and whatever size I am. So write the vows of what you promised to you, no matter what, for you to have that unconditional love for yourself.

I love that girl. I'm going to do it today. Yeah, girl.

I love it.

Awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome. And then finally, talk to me about, you know, the one message that you hope that readers will take away from matters of the heart.

Yeah. So the one message is you are worthy of love and to not settle that. Sometimes we are anxious about time. And I understand that. But to know you are deserving of good treatment, you're deserving of a mutual care. And when we settle, we end up unfulfilled and resentful. And it's actually not only a disservice to us, but to the other person. It's a lie. Right. The relationship is rooted in a lie. And so to know that goodness, healthiness, good loving is worth the wait. It's worth it. And you're worth it.

Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate you so much, Dr. Tama.

Oh, I appreciate you. I have loved this conversation.

Thank you so much for being here with us. It is a true blessing and we're honored to have you. We will definitely in the show notes, provide all of the links for people to go and get your book, but also to learn more about you on your social. Do you want to just share kind of how people can get in contact with you or where they can find matters of the heart?

Sure, absolutely. So My website is Dr. Tama.com D R T H M A. I'm also on social media, so Instagram and the others usually as Dr. Tama. On Instagram, it's Dr. Tama. The other ones are just Dr. Tama as one word. And the book Matters of the Heart you can find at any major bookstore, both online and in person. The good news for those who may not consider themselves like super readers is there's also an audio version and I'm the person reading the book.

Thank you. Thank you for doing that, girl. Thank you.

Yeah. So there's hardback ebook and the audio, and I encourage you to get your copy today and the one before this. If you're just on a book buying spree is homecoming, and that one is about healing from the trauma of the past. And then this one is on nourishing your relationships.

I love that. Again, thank you so much for being here. And ladies, I hope that you've gotten a lot from this conversation today. If you have, please don't hesitate to include us in your stories. Tag us, send us emails, we'll have that information. Just understanding and sharing with us what was your biggest takeaway today? Yeah. With that said, I wish you an amazing day and talk soon. Bye bye.

Hey girl, thank you so much for listening to the get yout Guy coaching podcast. If you like this episode and want to talk with me personally, please book a free consultation at www.getyourguycoaching.com. apply or subscribe and leave me a review. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, talk soon.