4 Experts on How to Build Muscle : 1181

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.

And we're talking about nad, we're talking about mitochondrial function, all those things which help with muscle. But if you do those and you don't have muscle, what happens with aging patients?

Yeah, you know, this idea of skeletal muscle health has really been overlooked. And I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to speak about skeletal muscle as, again, the pinnacle of health and wellness and this organ of longevity. There's something very fascinating, and I just want to point this out to the people in the collective and your podcast listeners, is that we have been hyper focused on symptomology, meaning we've been hyper focused on end state of aging, whether that is Alzheimer's disease or later stage cardiovascular disease, or even obesity, type 2 diabetes. These are diseases, in my opinion, and the evidence would support this of skeletal muscle first. So understanding and putting skeletal muscle into this framework of not just physical excellence, because, by the way, I'm sure you guys saw Dave is very ripped right now. Lean and ripped. But really, skeletal muscle is this organ system. It is an endocrine organ system, and it determines everything from glucose disposal, which are the carbohydrates that you eat, to its function as an endocrine organ through contracting skeletal muscle release of myokines. Now, your original question was, let's say you do NAD and you support mitochondria. That's all wonderful. And the reality is, as we age, mitochondria, which a lot of mitochondria is found in skeletal muscle. Skeletal muscle goes through physiological changes as we age. For example, like anabolic resistance. This idea that skeletal muscle is a nutrient sensing organ, which is fascinating. This idea that skeletal muscle senses the quality of the diet through the amino acids that are presented to it, and that efficiency of protein utilization declines as we age.

Here's a question. You say this happens as you age?

Potentially, yeah.

Oh, there you go. That was the little asterisk. It doesn't always happen as you age. It just happens if you don't do something about it. Because it's really important for listeners to get that vibe there. You can control this, but if you don't control it, it will happen.

I actually really appreciate that in the literature, there's a large body of evidence related to aging skeletal muscle. This concept of sarcopenia, which is a decrease in muscle mass and function, and also a handful of causes related to what we would call the hallmarks of aging. You said something very smart. And it's this idea that these things don't have to Happen. A large majority of the research that we look at from aging are healthy or sedentary adults.

Right? Healthy, my ass. Those are not healthy people.

There's. Exactly. So the framework that we are viewing these physiological changes in skeletal muscle, while we call them healthy older adults, the physical activity or the stimulation of skeletal muscle, they are a disease population. And this change, one of those changes with anabolic resistance, does it need to happen? Potentially, it does not. So you're absolutely right. Potentially it does not. And again, can you overcome it? Can you change it? Yes.

You're. You're pointing out a major problem right now. It's that almost every test you can get done compares you to Muggles. And if you're a biohacker, you are not normal. You ideally are several standard deviations away from normal, which means you're abnormal in the best possible way. Like Superman's abnormal too. Right. And it's not a bad thing. So that means that any study you read on aging was. They looked at a whole bunch of sick people to see what they did. But those people are not like you. The statistics and those things are not like you. And the lab values they target are not like you. Like, at 40 years, as in my neuroscience company, every quantitative EEG done. And brain aging actually goes along with muscle aging. But they compared them to a. A set of brains that were scanned in the 1970s from a bunch of Muggles. Like, these are people who are not healthy, who are smoking, were drinking. They didn't do any controls. Just a bunch of random people. Right. And there's nothing wrong with being a random person. It's just that that might not be what's for you. So I have a database of 1500 super brains of people who are into biohacking and brain training. And when you compare yourself to that, it's very different. Right now, you can't really say, well, how do I look like compared to super agers on these things in most studies. But you probably can with a measure of skeletal muscle mass, right?

Yeah.

How would you do it?

First of all, I've never heard the term super. Super agers. Is that your term?

I love that there is super centenarians, which has been used. James Clement, I think, is the one who studied them the most who's been on the show. But super agers are just people who age really well. I just. I think I made that up, but I might have heard it somewhere else.

I love that I've never heard it.

Okay.

I think I might be. It might be an original accidental invention.

Well, I love it. Let's talk about, especially for the biohackers, this idea of optimal skeletal muscle. And before I provide you with any kind of answer, I want to tell you where the massive flaws in the way of thinking and looking at skeletal muscle are right now. We are very good at measuring fat mass and in fact that's what we've done. We've measured fat and bone dexa, which is considered the gold standard by the way. There are again large bodies of evidence. This is the shoulders that we stand upon. This idea that DEXA is going to tell us the amount of skeletal muscle and the optimal amount is flawed on a fundamental level. Are you ready?

I'm so happy you said this.

Okay, tell me why it doesn't actually measure skeletal muscle mass directly. DEXA that we have been using does not directly measure skeletal muscle mass, nor does it measure the quality of the tissue as an individual ages. Skeletal muscle becomes, if it is sedentary, there's this decrease in flux. It's like an over packed suitcase. Skeletal muscle that is not trained and leveraged with physical activity will become like a marbled steak. Yes, this one major cause of insulin resistance and the subsequent diseases that follow that. But skeletal muscle is not measured directly, routinely, nor in literature. The way in which it can be would be potentially MRI or ct. The majority of people do not have access to that and it is also not used in most research studies. So right now what we have is a extrapolation or an estimation of lean body mass, which is not the same as skeletal muscle mass and we are not directly measuring it. So actually Dave, I have no idea what your optimal muscle mass should be.

This raises a couple questions. Okay, number one, the founders of Pre Nouveau or the founder, the chief medical officer, which is an mri, whole body MRI technology have been on the show. I did it at their first like beta location in Vancouver about five years ago and again last year in la. And that gave really good indication of these things, including things like liver fat, which isn't a muscle. But yeah, my number was I think under one and a half percent. It was a very, very low range, which is really important because if your liver is fatty, you probably have fatty muscle and if your liver's not fatty, you probably don't have fatty muscle. I don't remember though in my score, a muscle quality score even from those guys. So how would I get that?

Well, that's a great question. And again, these standards are not done yet. They don't exist. These are major gaps in where we are one Way in which you would see the quality of skeletal muscle is basically, I'm sure that there is a calculation where they would be able to look at intramuscular fat. Potentially there is, but not routinely done.

Okay. So I'm guessing that they could write the code for that. And I will actually ask Prenova about that because they, they rewrote all of the software using AI to stuff. So I don't think it would be a hard challenge. So let's ask them. Maybe you can advise them, you know.

And then the other thing, with muscle, there is likely a genetic potential. And I think striving to reach whatever that individual potential is is important because skeletal muscle ultimately becomes your body armor. And do you have to spend four hours at the gym to get there? No. But again, thinking about there's a genetic propensity for an individual to put on skeletal muscle and providing yourself with strategies to be able to optimize that genetic potential I think is absolutely critical.

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Thank you for mentioning genetic potential. I was changing shirts before we started recording and I'm pretty ripped right now and and so you caught a glimpse of that as the cameras were turning on. I work out 20 minutes a week but I'm doing the stuff in smarter, not harder. I'm doing upgrade labs technologies that are AI driven to put a, to put a stimulus in. So people are like oh my God, 20 minutes a week because oh six years ago I had my genes tested and compared to a bronze gold medalist in some strength some like one of the strength things and my genes were 2% better than his for strength things. So, so yes I have the genes to put on muscle. So someone else might need 40 minutes a week if they don't have the same genetic potential. I also, and this is where I want your your advice for especially younger listeners. In my early 20s when I said I'm going to lose my a hundred pounds of fat no matter once and no matter what I hit the gym 90 minutes a day, six days a week for a year and a half I could max out all but two of the machines. I was really strong still at a 46 inch waist I was still fat. It didn't work right. But I believe all of that set me up to be able to put muscle on easily later in life. Cause I was conditioned that way as a young adult.

Yeah I had a.

So what would you tell younger people to do about that?

So I, I have two thoughts on that. Number one, training younger is very advantageous and there's been a lot of information out there saying that when you are younger it's going to stunt growth. I have two very little children and that information is false. It doesn't stunt growth and it doesn't affect growth plates.

Even really heavy lifting.

It doesn't necessarily even have to be heavy. Heavy is all relative.

My understand. I mean I looked at this a lot for my kids because they wanted to do the upgrade labs AI Thing that flexes your bones.

And I found that may be different bone flex again. But again, you are talking about something that is utilizing AI as opposed to what is available for a non biohacking child.

Like a max weight deadlift for a six year old is probably not a good idea, but they should be doing strength work. But just max heavy strength work. I've told my kids, like wait till you're 18, you know, maybe 16. What do you think? I've seen 16 year olds on, on rowing teams actually stop growing because of overtraining. But that may be volume of training, not because of actual strength.

Right. And I think that one could say probably a max deadlift at 6 or 16, maybe too young. But I think that based on the data and lifting and stimulating muscle, whether it's for muscle hypertrophy or strength, that there is no good clinical indication for individuals to not be training young.

Amen. Double down on that. One of my most recent proud father moments was when my teenage daughter spent some time with me and like watched me biohacking. We were traveling to a Vision Lock County's conference in Europe and so I went to the gym with her and, and she's like, this is fun. And then she said, you know what, I can do this twice a week. Like it's only gonna take me 20 minutes. We have the stuff at home. I'm like, yeah, but, but she made the own, her own decision to do it. It's fun and it's not like every morning. It's. And for a teenager who just wants to like feel good, not, you know, become a bodybuilder later in life, how much weight bearing exercise, how often is ideal?

So this is a great question because from your perspective, I think you've been able to kind of biohack the system. So I'm gonna give you information from, from traditional literature. Not using AI, not using any kind of stimulation. There is a very easy rule of thumb. Individuals training three days a week. You could train three to five days a week. Again, there is a strength continuum so you don't have to necessarily load super heavy. And we've all heard this. The 8 to 12 repetitions. Again, could you do more than that? Absolutely. But I think starting three days a week is a perfect place to start. Unless you are. Dave, unless you are using AI and working 10 sets, the other side to that. 10 sets per muscle group, the other side to that. That is a very generic recommendation. Right?

This is a very generic, your fitness competitor level. Like I've seen your Instagram, you're like, look at my apple bottom and whatever the hell else you call it. But like, you are super fit, right? And, and you kind of, you're kind of a gym rat. And that's a compliment. Not a, you know, not a, an insult at all. But like, you, you love it, you want to do it. My kids are studying and like, they have stuff they want to do. Talk to me about minimum effective dose for teenagers, because they're more likely to do that. Three days a week is a lot to ask for a teenager who has.

A busy life potentially. Or are we training them to create physical discipline? So I will say there is that. There's the physical discipline aspect. The minimum effective dose could be some kind of high intensity interval training. Um, I'm curious to hear what kind of training you're doing. But for example, Martin Gabala created the one minute workout and he's up in Canada. And that is ma. I mean that is full out, maximum effort. And that would just take a minute, a minute of total work and, and you would be toasted.

I would do that three times a week with, with kids. That's fine. What I'm doing now is pretty much a variety of the things in the strength chapter of Smarter, Not Harder. So I'll use blood flow restriction, which amplifies the results you get even if you use less weight. Electrical stimulation. Sometimes I'll use resistance bands instead of lifting weights. And I pretty much don't lift weights unless I'm at a hotel and you know, I'm like, oh, I guess I'll do some flies or whatever just because. And if I do that, I never spend more than about eight minutes doing that. And I just exhaust the muscles as fast as humanly possible. Because all the data that I've seen from doing the research on the book says the faster you exhaust and then the faster you recover equals more growth and less time. But if you exhaust, exhaust, exhaust, exhaust, exhaust, exhaust, and then recover, your body doesn't adapt as quickly. So you don't see the same benefit. There may be some upper limit if you're a fitness competitor in a bodybuilder or something. But for me, like, I want to minimize the amount of time and energy that I put in to maintaining my. Right now I'm probably around 7 1/2% body fat.

I would guess that.

And I'm like, I have exceptionally dense bones and like I'm, I'm in great shape. New York Times says I'm almost muscular, which is the vibe I want to live a long time like, if I put on another, you know, whatever X number of inches, I'm actually gonna have a hard time fitting insurance. And I don't know that I'm likely to live longer if I had, you know, a much larger chest than I do now. Or am I? I don't know. You would know.

I. I have thoughts on this. The skeletal muscle as body armor. Let's say you were to get injured. Knock on wood. That never happens. Or you were to get sick. A individual, whether they are 40 or whether they are 20, will lose around 2 pounds of skeletal muscle in seven days. Probably closer to five days, depending on what they're eating.

Right.

Well, there is a grace period of about seven days with an increase in leucine content. So there is a grace period. But after seven days, that immobility is devastating for both strength and muscle mass. In an ideal world, that never happens. But the reality is, if in fact something were to happen, I would always like less, not more.

In the world where I mean more.

Muscle, not less muscle.

Okay.

More muscle rather than less.

Yeah.

There is no evidence to support that more muscle mass would be detrimental. I. I have not seen that. Now, we're not talking about bodybuilders using supraphysiological doses of any kind of hormone that are. That's changing their muscular tissue.

We're.

We're not talking about that.

We're talking about, yeah, there's a certain amount of. Of load on the heart. If you're walking around with three times the normal amount of skeletal muscle mass, that's probably not good for you. And we see cardiac issues in those exceptionally large bodybuilders, but who knows? Maybe it is from all the roids.

I'm doing my best to watch body mass. You know, body mass, you have to pump a lot of blood. So I do think that there is evidence to support a more muscular body rather than a less muscular body. In the idea of framing with prevention. The other thing that becomes really important is that we've seen this. We've seen that individuals who lose skeletal muscle have higher blood levels of glucose, have more insulin resistance, and oftentimes have elevated levels of triglycerides.

It. It makes so much sense because what is the muscle doing? It's actually using blood sugar. And if you don't have muscle and you have blood sugar, well, what's it gonna do exactly? And it's also gonna build up, which then you get advanced glycation end products, which is one of the major causes aging. And it's just a bad situation. But I, I have a little story about the value of muscle mass. About 25 years ago, my father was in really good shape because he would, he'd been training in order to do like to walk the, the Rocky Mountain trail that goes from my Mexico to Canada. And he was really, really into these long, long distance solo backpack. And he started getting pain in his stomach, like really, really bad pain. And went into the hospital and they said we think it might be your appendix. And he goes I don't have an appendix. What's wrong? He just remembered it being taken out, but it wasn't. So it went gangrenous and exploded. And you know as a doctor that can be kind of fatal right when you start doing that. Well, because he was so muscular, he survived but he lost 25 pounds of skeletal muscle during his recovery. If he hadn't had that muscle, he would have died. And he says that to this day. So yeah, be in a car accident, something bad happens, I don't know. Government tells you can't leave your house for three years. Whatever. Having skeletal muscle mass might be good for you.

I would agree with you.

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Back when John was on this show, actually before you even on the show, you sent me one of the first 5x3 bars ever made. And this is something that you've become well known for. And this is the way you apply variable resistance. I even wrote about it in Smarter, not harder because it's one of the several different ways that puts muscle on better than picking up rocks. And it, it, I think that the Facebook posting or something back then that I did it, it totally helped to blow up, got a lot of attention on it and, and you could really feel and see the difference. And you just came out with a new digital version of the X3 bar, which is why I want to have you back on, because this thing is really incredible. I'm all about the data. I don't care what some epidemiologist says or some super angry men's health, you know, exercise physiologist who's basically a troll out. I don't care what they say. I really don't. All I care about is my data or your data. And your results are my results. So some clown can tell you that, you know, statins work and the only way to live longer is exercise. And there's a longevity guy out there, a doctor trying to say these things right now. The reality is it's more complex. But show me the data. And the data is you. So with the X3 bar, I tried it for a few weeks before I promoted it. I was like, holy crap, this is different. And with the digital version you have, you can show people they get stronger, faster, and you can show them exactly how much they did. So I'm, I'm a huge fan of this.

Well, I mean, you. You already have one, yet you're gonna.

Yeah, I know the value of data for motivation, and I know the value of the X3 bar. So, like a digital X3 bar. Hmm. It's so good.

So, yeah, like, variable resistance will make you absolutely stronger, so much faster. But, but the. The concept of progressive over. I just. Most of the audience probably never heard that term. What it means is you need. I. I never liked the term before because when somebody would say, like, you know, what's your. What's your method of training? They're like progressive overload. So your method of getting stronger is getting stronger, because that's really what that means. It's like that. That kind of dumb. But the concept is, if you are getting stronger, you can progressively handle more resistance. So you can go up in repetitions, or you can do the same amount of repetitions and each repetition is done slower. So more time under tension. That's progressive overload. Or you're dealing with a higher level of resistance. So all three of those things, or a mix of any of those things, is greater force created. So you're progressing the overload. You only grow muscle from a protein synthesis standpoint when you best those numbers. So if you're not beating your previous, then you're not really doing anything. Now, this is just from a myofibro perspective, not a sarcoplasmic perspective. But for the people who want to be as strong as possible, you want to make sure you're breaking your record every time. So true.

Though. If I flew around the planet yesterday and I've got circadian disruption and I'm recovering from a cold and I go into lift, do I really want to break my previous best on that day when my body isn't really ready to grow?

I would tell you, sleep today.

Let's do it.

Okay.

There you go. So that's part of what Upgrade Labs is doing. It's like, hey, let's get your data. And if you know your desire is to lift heavy, but your body is like, nuh, let's not do it. Let's put you in an advanced recovery protocol.

Yeah, There are plenty of days where your body says no, you want to create that environment where you're besting your previous. So. So the original program was more like a standard kind of fitness program, but I'm doing something a little different now. Whereas we focus on strength, you basically just do one set per exercise per week, and you know you're fully recovered, going, Going in, because you had an entire week rest and Then in between, you just do volume work. And so, you know, my, My, my approach to this, and I haven't launched the program yet because the number of sets is, like, bit different, you know, per body part, and the exercises are done a little differently because it's a little different focus. But ultimately, what we want is just maximum blood flow. So, I mean, you could put your favorite Netflix show on and do sets of exercises. Not. This is critical, not to failure.

Okay.

You want to stop five reps short of failure. So you do your strength work. And you know what you can do? Let's say it's, you know, the black band, and you can do it 20 repetitions. Well, that's, you know, that's your. That's your strength work. But then when you switch gears to volume, which is what you do for the rest of the week, then it's just like, okay, I can do, let's say, four or five sets or maybe 10 sets, and I'm just gonna do 15 repetitions instead of 20, because you're just trying to compound the blood flow into the muscle over and over and over again. And that's where the size comes from.

So how many reps are you doing? Like the failure reps, did you say?

Takes 20 repetitions to just go to absolute complete fatigue.

Okay. And you do that how many times a week?

1.

So once a week, you blow yourself out, basically.

Right?

Okay. And then the rest of the time, you're. You're doing five reps short of blowing yourself out. You do that every day?

No. So I can do it. What I'm doing right now is six days a week, but I split the body three ways. So I do push upper body, pull upper body, and then legs. That's how I split it.

Got it. And this is an average of how many minutes per workout?

Oh, geez. I mean, the actual time under tension might be like six minutes per workout.

Six minutes. And the time. Is there a rest between each set?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so then what's the total time with resting and doing it?

Well, it depends. Like I tell people, do as much volume as you can do. It fits in your life.

People will say that what you're saying is too good to be true. Right? And I get this all the time, dude. I have a franchise with 27 locations and more signing up, and we have all this data, and we're showing that it works, but it's not supposed to work, therefore it doesn't. And what you do, you know, saying, what do you mean you're not. You know, blowing discs out with, you know, you know, 16 plates on each side of something, therefore it doesn't work. And the reality is curiosity is okay and it's okay to be wrong. You know, I've shifted some of my nutritional strategies from what I did 10 plus years ago. I think I'm directionally accurate on it. And, you know, we all learn. And you may decide tomorrow that six reps instead of five away from failure works better. And then you'll just change and it won't mean you're a bad person. Bottom line. And this is just for, for people listening, John has real science and we're going to talk about stuff in the journal, strength and conditioning research and other things like that. But you see so much garbage out there, some of it funded by big Pharma. And there's organized trolls for animal rights, terrorist groups trying to get you to be vegan. There's probably some like, farmers group trying to get you to be carnivore. You know, that's, that's behind the scenes pulling puppets. I doubt it. But who knows? The bottom line is how do you know if something's trustworthy? Sometimes journals help. I think they do, but you got to look at the people who are talking about it and the results they're getting with themselves in their communities. And I've, I've seen some pretty impressive results. You know, why it works and how it works. And frankly, you know, your biceps look like they're doing all right now.

Doing all right.

I gotta ask you this though, and this is something that's kind of tortured me. We've all seen videos of Shaolin monks and they're doing one finger push downs and they're doing these incredible feats of strength. And they're small. Why are they so strong when they don't have the bulk that you or I have?

There's three ways to make a muscle bigger and there's four ways to get stronger. So what they're focusing on is the way to get stronger that doesn't make you bigger, which is neurological. Getting more muscle to fire. Got it at a faster rate. Most people, when they, when they contract a muscle, it's, you know, maybe low percentage, 30%, whatever of the actual mechanical tissue available is recruited. So like, like a gymnast, they're great at getting almost the entire muscle to fire in, in anything they're doing with intention. So, you know, not necessarily, not necessarily reflexive, but more, more is recruited in their reflexes also, which is why they have such incredible balance. So the Shaolin monks They, they also very, very carefully restrict their eating. You never see a obese shallon monk, that's for sure. Very, very, very small amount of calories, very high level of potentiation. And the muscle that they are growing, they're not getting a blood flow effect. They're doing mostly what X3 does, which is muscle protein synthesis. So they're just building sort of like lean, powerful muscle as opposed to a larger muscle that's capable of longer sustained contractions. That's, you know, that's sort of more like a bodybuilder.

But they don't get the bulk. Part of what I do is I, I, I read your stuff and, and I, I look at modern things and I also look at old practices and a lot of these guys are practicing something called nigong, which is sort of.

The redheaded stepchild of, of qigong.

And they teach that there's ligaments and tendon strength, that there's muscle strength, and that there's something they call interstitial strength or wong. And I don't exactly know what that is, but maybe that's the neurological stuff you're talking about. It's some other factor that we don't look at in modern exercise science. But maybe what those Shaolin masters are doing is definitely tendon and muscle and bone strengthening and neurological strengthening. So they, like you said, they fire everything so they don't need as much. That would be more like driving a lighter car.

Right?

How do I get that I want to be stronger than you with 50% of the muscle mass that you have.

I mean, then that, you know, it's like lifting incredibly slow, does that. So like, like real slow contractions with the X3. So you know, I'm moving like molasses, you know, like three seconds up, three seconds back kind of thing. You're recruiting more tissue. So like the, the analogy I like is when you draw a line on a piece of paper, if you do it fast and not a straight line, it's easy. If you do it slowly, your hand will ache. It's because all the stabilization firing is required to enable you to draw that line straight. So all kinds of reflexes are firing to keep that pencil in your fingers and drawing a straight line. And all kinds of feedback information is being used from, you know, your visual interpretation of what's happening on the page and the mechanical feedback, what's going on in your hand. So you know, you draw a straight line really slow and you know, your hand just like, ah, like, why is my hand ache from going alike. Well, Much more muscular involvement.

Okay.

So really, really slow movement.

That's something in. In my last book, smarter, not harder.

Like really, really slow.

Especially eccentrics.

Makes a difference.

When you're using the new X3 bar that you came out with with the. The digital measurement, do you. It must track the speed that you're lowering the bar?

Yeah.

And how do you.

How do.

How's the feedback work on that to encourage people to do it slower or faster.

So it's sampling multiple times per second. Okay. And it's. So what you're competing with is the total force you create. If you're going. If you're doing like, crappy, you know, fast repetitions like that, you know, or just pushing out and letting it, you know, like snap back on you sort of thing, the aggregate number is going to see that you're hanging back in the. In the easier part of the motion a lot. You spend a lot more time back there than you are in the loaded position. So then you're going to have a lower total force. Now, once you learn how to do it right, you go slow and controlled contractions, that number starts jumping up. So you always want to be beating that number. That's progressive overload. So by looking at that total number, and I mean, it's like precise, like, like when I do a chest press, the aggregate number of pounds that's collected is like 20,000. So it's. I can, like, if I'm at, you know, 19,900, I know I've got to do another maybe half a repetition to beat my previous best, but then that's a trigger for growth. And when you have the data in front of you, you said it's so motivating. Most people, they may only have a few workouts in their life where they actually get stronger and they are able to realize it and perform a greater level of force and then trigger growth again. It might only be a handful of times because most people have no view of this. And repetition counting is not because, like, you can do, like I see people when they start training, you know, they might do 10 reps on a bench press with a certain amount of weight, and then two weeks later they're doing 12 reps, but they're doing them faster. So they're actually doing less work by doing the 12 reps than with the 10. So are they getting stronger? No, they're not. And with this, like, you absolutely know every time in. If you waited the proper amount of time and you had the proper amount of protein on your days that you're training, you will notice. You'll beat your number almost every time. And that's. That's what happened to me over. Over the course of 2023 in my 14 hours of exercise.

Oh, man, it's tough. 14 hours. Just like, almost. Almost two full work days. Let's talk about diet for a minute. You. You seem like you're kind of a carnivore ish sort of guy these days. Where are you on the spectrum of protein? Source of protein, type of fat, frequency of carbs?

It's funny, I was going to ask you the same question. So not everybody sees this, but Dave and I were just hanging out at a conference and you shredded. Like you said, you're like 5% body fat.

It's insane for being where I came from. Just like the veins and stuff. Like, Like, I don't know. It's on YouTube.

This video is not doing it any justice. You look. There you go.

It's weird.

You look like an anatomy chart.

Yeah, I'm not displeased, we'll put it that way. But yeah, I like to think biohacking works when you keep adjusting over time. So first tell me what you're doing because you look like a balloon animal.

Yeah, actually, I'm more interested in what you're doing because I think you're closer to the right answer. But, um, yeah, I mean, I'm getting one gram per pound of body weight in quality protein. So either meat or, you know, fermentation.

Meat or fermentation. What are you fermenting?

So I have a supplement called Fortagen. It's.

Okay, so basically amino acids. Okay, got it.

Yeah.

So. So you're doing either protein or amino acids that have an equivalent amount of protein. Okay. And the difference for listeners, if you eat a steak or a whole protein, about 30% of it, of the calories in it go into breaking it down. If you eat the amino acids that happen after it breaks down, they're fully absorbed, and you need far fewer of them. You need less calories.

That's right.

But as long as you're getting the amino acids at the end of it, there's benefits. There's probably also some metabolic signaling in the gut from eating protein that's probably beneficial, but we don't know. Okay. Yes. What do you do for carbs?

You know, I try and stay, like, under 15 grams a day.

Wow. And. And that works over time for you? Okay.

I mean, it does, but I'm. I'm gonna ask you the same question. What are you doing?

You're not gonna like my answer. It's funny. And then. But first I want to get yours.

Wait, hold on. I mean I'm a scientist. If there's a better answer, somebody can tell me. Like putting, you know, cramming cauliflower in my ears is going to make me like bigger and stronger. See me like doing this all the time.

I'll be a gravel terian. If it works, I don't even care how it tastes like, I am willing to do anything. It's better and it's proven.

Great.

Even if it's not proven. I'll probably try it if it's not going to kill me. And I'll prove it myself if I have to. Because the most interesting things aren't proven. They just work. Right? Yeah. Now, so first you got to tell me fats, type of fat, amount of fat, where are you on that?

Most of the time I'm one meal a day. It's pretty much like, like a two and a half pound ribeye is what I eat every day.

Nice or not.

I try to. If I'm on the road then you know, like if I have to go to a Texas roadhouse.

You lift every day? You're doing omad. You do cold therapy and stuff too?

When I can.

Okay. Like regularly.

But you know, crap chambers or not, they don't do it for me. I like, I like a cold plunge.

Okay. Where's your cortisol?

Well, it depends.

It does change every day. Who would have thought, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it can go decently high.

It's not like blown out low.

No.

Okay. Awesome. What I found over time is when people go following some of my recommendations, right. You can always overdo something. Like do it when your body needs it. I'm like, I'll do it every day. I found that for most guys if they do omad, the one meal a day, so they're doing relatively long intermittent fasting and they're doing keto without a break that they usually about six, eight weeks they start seeing cortisol levels go up and up, which feels good at first cuz cortisol and adrenaline are energy sources. But then you start waking up and you're like God, I didn't sleep well. This happened when I did three months of, of what we would now call carnivore when I was stress testing the edges of the bulletproof recommendations. And so you're like, God, my sleep quality just went to hell and your sleep score is no good. And then you wake up without a kickstand and then your hair gets a little bit thin. These are all like high cortisol things. So I've, I always, that's one of the reasons my recommendations were maybe you should cycle in and out of ketosis. Also SHBG goes up on a keto diet over time. Right. And so that was my one hard thing with the bulletproof stuff is why is SHBG so high? And green tea extract EGCG will lower it to a certain extent. So will having some carbs already. So I, I, I went back and forth and I, I've been tweaking and testing forever. So I'm a little bit of a long story to tell you what I'm doing, but I want listeners and you to understand the order of operations of my thinking and like why I did it and have done it the way I do it. And by the way, there's a brand new website, daveaspray.com just came out and I've reorganized all the information. There's 3000 blog posts and 1200 episodes. There's a lot of info just to make it easier to find stuff. So go to Dave Asprey.com to see all that. But in Superhuman, the longevity book, there's a cluster of Data that says 0.6 grams per pound of body weight might be associated with longevity. But all the studies don't look at the quality of the protein and a.

Lot of them use shit quality protein. Whey, Whey rash.

Yeah, well whey is better than soy.

Yeah, I, I wouldn't even consider like when somebody says like vegetable protein, it's like that's not protein.

Like throw. I, I, I'm with you there. So pro and also gluten, snake venom and nerve gas are all plant based. Well not, they're all proteins either animal or plant based. So it doesn't matter. Like, like you don't want to just eat a protein diet unless you know what protein is. So I'm gonna assume available animal based proteins. Cause those are what work. And where we run into problems is that if you want longevity, restricting the amount of certain amino acids like methionine and tryptophan are important because those change your gut microbiome per biome studies and because they also basically accelerate some aspects of aging via something called mtor, which is not even that bad in some circumstances. Very technical sentence. And if you didn't follow that guys, just hang on for a second, I'll explain it all to you. So that's 0.6. But there's also abundant Research that says people are healthier metabolically, which means you'll live longer if you eat one gram per pound of body weight. There's also another set of data that says 0.8 grams and 1 pound or 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight are identical in outcomes. But I don't see that. So here's what I've been doing and a lot of people are, are like, do, do tell, do tell. Okay. Number one, I have formulated a new kind of protein and I will probably launch it. It's all animal based, but it's not something that you would find today on the market. So I think that's part of it. I, I optimize my type of protein, but I just did the math. I need 200 grams of protein. If I'm doing only two meals a day, that's a hundred grams of protein per pound of body weight. And all the studies until two weeks ago said you can only use at most 50 grams of protein per meal. And I thought to myself, that sounds like a whole lot of bullshit because.

Yeah, there's a great study that came out about three weeks ago that just.

And, and that study showed. Well, it's one of the reasons that what I've done for the last two years worked. I tend to do stuff and figure out it works. And then there's a study. I don't know why, but the same thing happened with C8MCT oil.

And.

Well, that's also part of the reason why one meal a day works.

Yeah, it, it is. And one meal a day, you have to eat more than 50 grams of protein. Otherwise you'd look like Bill Gates. You know why?

Yeah, he's just like, well, I don't eat really anything except for fat and protein. So yeah, I would, I do.

So I now, and I, I was doing this with just fat and protein and I got like crazy lean to the point. I'm like, all right, I, there's no reason to limit carbs. So what I do now is I do 1 gram per pound of body weight. I have no problem with a hundred grams of animal protein per meal. And the study that just came out says there is no upper limit for protein and you just make muscle for longer periods of time. So I might do two meals a day on an average day, sometimes three if I'm feeling, you know, lazy about it. But I always get at least 200 grams of protein. I always take enzymes with it. If, if you're listening to this and you're going to do it, if you Fart death. You did it wrong. And if you do it regularly, you'll probably die. If the old bodybuilder, the gyms would smell like crap. Too much protein makes ammonia, which wrecks your metabolism. If you have enzymes and stomach acid, you won't do that. You'll just absorb it. So what I've been doing is I've been absorbing protein, a lot of it, and I'm a little concerned about that. So I've been looking at my Dunedin pace, my rate of aging to see if all this stuff, it hasn't changed meaningfully. So what I'm, what I'm seeing is that this works. There's something that you've talked about in your, your videos that maybe 20 years ago I would have thought, you know, that sounds like a lot of. A lot of.

Yeah, probably.

It might have been a little bit. Might have been it.

It's muscle confusion.

Well, it's a made up term. We made that term. Yeah, but Billy, Billy Idle, I trained Billy. Billy used to call me muscle Confucius. And the CEO thought that was funny. He goes, let's call it muscle confusion.

I go, what?

It's just, you know, I mean, Jack Lane had periodization training. Yeah, muscle confusion. Even Arnold likes to give me crap for that. That, you know.

I think it's actually brilliant now that I know what I know about the brain and neural adaptation and some of the latest science in how to create change in biological systems. What the idea is that if you change your workout routine regularly, your body won't adapt and you'll continue to grow. Maybe there's something about individual body parts adapting, but I think the genius of it is what it does for your brain because exercise makes the brain better. And when you do exercise that is uncomfortable for the brain because it, it didn't just do that. It makes the brain stronger, makes myelin sheath thicker. And it's one of the reasons that, you know, I started playing ping pong. My, my dear friend Dr. Daniel Amen from Amen Clinics on his board of directors. Now after years after he helped me without knowing me, he said, dave, get a ping pong table. I said, all right. And the idea there is you're going over here, you're crossing over the center line. And some people call it cross training. But you were an early adopter, whether you kind of made it up or not. But I think it creates anti aging neurological effects in the brain to not do the same thing every day.

Well, it comes down to the boredom and injuries and plateaus that stop Most people in their tracks.

Right, so. Right, yeah.

So I mean, if you're, if there's a lot of variety there, it's like, oh, this is more interesting than just, you know, I mean the old days I would do, you know, chest and back for two hours and I get on the stage, stationary bike for 45 minutes and then I would do legs next day, get on the bike for 45 minutes and I do shoulders and arms again, the bike. And so when I was training all these rockers, you know, like Billy Idol, Tom Petty, Bruce Springsteen, I'll say we got to get a heavy bag, we got to get, you know, we got to do pilates, we got to do yoga because, you know, they, they got tours to get ready for and they've got, you know, fancy lifestyles and, and they liked that. And I noticed it was working for me in the gym. Well, I'm going to do, I'm going to do yoga today, I'm going to do Pilates today. I'm going to go to the, I'm going to go to the, the aerobics room because that's where all the women are, you know. And it was a very honest. The reason why. And then I just want to pound weights. Oh, you know what? I'm just going to do body weight today. You know, I'm going to go to the track. And so the CEO said, can you recreate those types of workouts that you do for yourself and for all these celebrities and do it in front of a television? I said, you know, at a pull up bar and some bands and some dumbbells, because I was always trying to work on their weaknesses as much as their strengths just to keep them interested, you know what I mean? And keep them from getting hurt and seeing results over time. So he came up with muscle confusion and it kind of describes what we were doing.

It's a good thing. And one other thing I've got to give you credit for. I just wrote a chapter in my last book on biohacking about putting on muscle and all the different technologies that work better than picking up rocks, which is kind of what weightlifting is. We concentrate in the rocks. Now, one of them is bands. Because the type of resistance that a band gives your body is foreign and it actually confuses your muscles. And you more than anyone else have popularized bands and they are provably more efficient at building muscle than picking up weights. I'm not saying you should.

Not without injury. Yeah, yeah, without injury too. Yeah, because there's a better concentric with bands. Than there are with dumbbells.

Yeah, nailed it. So it's cool you've got some things that I would label early biohacks that you evolved into because you did all sorts of things and all this. What about hormones, though? Do you measure your hormones? Do you know your testosterone levels?

I do. I know my testosterone and my free testosterone. I mean, I get my blood work. I just did it last week. And I'll probably sit down with my endocrinologist, nutritionist, and we'll talk about those numbers and my test. I don't take anything for it. I don't.

I was gonna ask you that next. Yeah.

And they're. It's between 7:80 and I've gotten as high as a thousand plus.

And you can do that at 65, which is so unusual because we have an epidemic even among you.

Sure you're not taking protein powder twice a day and training hard.

Yeah.

And recovery, you know, getting enough quality.

Protein helps so much. The right fats and I, I managed to get mine up to 7:50. I've been on testosterone since I was 26. I had lower testosterone than my mom and I was really unhealthy. I had, you know, mold toxins that were estrogenic and, you know, a lot of problems. So I went off of it for about three years when I was testing out my first big diet book just to see what I could do. And if I did everything perfect, I could get to 7:50. But I feel much better at 9. And so I supplement, I inject once a week, and I keep my doses.

Around 9 or my levels around 900.

And it works. And I, I just encourage everyone listening, man or woman, if you don't know your sex hormone levels, no matter your age, you're just missing out. It's cheap to get it done now. You can do it at home. And then you know your baseline and you know, if what you're doing works because, you know, if you're eating, you know, the, the Cheetos and Diet Coke, vegan diet, which some people do. Well, I'm vegan. I must be healthy. Your testosterone is going to be in the. And then you'll know. And then you can say, well, maybe what I'm doing doesn't work and maybe they'll add some more protein or they'll get better sleep or the things you're talking about. But I am so impressed. Most guys at 65, even with a great regimen, with the experience, is that the stuff that worked two years ago just doesn't work. No, matter how they push harder, but the muscle won't grow. And it's the andropause thing. And so you're whatever. The combination of meditation and sleep and work and exercise or happiness and community, whatever you're doing, you're a far outlier to have levels that high because most 30 year olds don't have levels like you do.

I know, it's bizarre. And I am an outlier. I suppose I am an anomaly in that respect. But I mean, keep in mind, except for being sick with Ramsay Hunt and travel, I haven't missed a workout in 35 years. I mean, when I first started climbing when I was P90X guy, I couldn't climb a 15 foot rope. It's like, oh, ow, ow, it hurts. My hands, my forearms are pumping up. I can't even open my hand right. And so I went, oh, okay, I'm terrible at this. Let's keep doing it. Let's, let's get away from the weights a little bit and start climbing some ropes. And then I went, you know, I had a pegboard in, in junior high school and I couldn't put this, I couldn't put one out without crashing. So I went, I got made two of them. I got two of them on my property and I. And none of us could do them. We were all terrible because it was just a completely different movement. But I mean, it's more muscle confusion right now. Now we go. I go around the pegboard like I'm on the moon, you know, only because 17 years later, doing it twice a week mixed in with all the other things that I do, I'm just, you know, oh, I can, we can go to the top. Let's see if we can go to the corner. Let's see if we can go to the corner and down. Let's even go to the corner, down in here. And then we go up, over, down and back, you know, and I sing the national anthem when I do it. Just to be a wise guy, you know, and it's. And I'm older. I mean, I'm, you know, I mean, I got this pegboard 17 years ago and I can do it better than ever. I mean, all that behavior, plus the recovery, plus the infrared sauna, you know, plus the foam rolling, plus the those naps and the meditation. And I don't have kids. I mean, you know, a lot of my friends have kids. They have, like, there's a bunch of extra energy in the house that kind of sucks their life out of them sometimes makes it harder for them oh.

That'S why your testosterone is so high, because you don't have kids, so you have a life of quiet luxury. I see what you're doing there, Tony. All right.

My pendulum swings very far in both directions, man. I like when it comes to chilling and relaxing and hanging out underneath the awning and, you know, just enjoying some lemonade.

I love it.

I sleeping in, Sign me up. You know what I mean? I know what I need it, so I do it. I'm not afraid. I don't judge the fact that sometimes I'm just effing off. You know what I mean? I understand how my body's reacting to that.

Yeah. And then you change what you're doing for that day, which is what everyone can aspire to, is just, oh, you know, it's not that I'm feeling lazy. It's that something's not working right. But sometimes you are feeling lazy. And to just learn the discernment between those two states has been really important. And there's a lot of shame out there, too. I talk about how I want to get exactly the right amount of exercise to feel and look a certain way, but I'm also really busy with multiple companies and writing books and all that stuff. So somebody like, well, you're just not willing to work hard. And I'm just like, should we compare abs? Because I'm 8% body fat, and I, you know, probably can crush you in my grip. So it's like, I'm super willing to work hard, but I'm gonna work hard to feel amazing and to do the things that matter. And it seems like you've gotten to that as well, where, like, today isn't the day to push really hard. Today's the day to recover hard and then push harder tomorrow.

Nikki Bella was on the show, you know, celebrity and also professional wrestler, and she described exactly that life. But it was very similar to what you'd hear even from, like, Third Eye Blind. You know, I've worked with those guys, been backstage with them, or Pink Floyd, now Roger Waters, they get beat to death by the road, plus all the breathing that they're doing. And I never paid much attention to that until Stephen Jenkins has said, now, here's all my breathing that's pointed, planned out ahead for a show. And I was blown away because it's a different kind of, like, endurance athletics with minimal recovery, almost like doing, like, a endurance event every day and just traveling around doing that. So you ground down. But I wanted to ask you. So, I mean, here we are. You've got, you know, these nice big guns and everything. And you're training these people to look really good. But everything I know about training says that recovery is as important as training. And these guys are amazing. Minimizing recovery. Like, how do you get around that?

Well, when you film a movie, it's really hard because then you have like 14 hour days when it's all in, it's all physical and then you have a short turnaround. That, that is a challenge, let me tell you. So you do whatever you can. But same thing with, with an artist. When you're, you know, on tour, it's all about finding those spots. When, when should I be eating? Can we get a break here to do, you know, some get an hour at the spa with some ice bath and a sauna.

So you recommend that to your clients as well as I do.

And you know, for me it's about creating good habits as well. Let's say when you're, when you're on tour, your schedule is created for you to take you from city to city to do radio promo and to do shows. There's nothing in there that is about you and your wellness.

None at all.

Nothing at all. Nothing to really look. What do you need? So if Katy Perry's got a show for 20,000 people at 8pm, I look at when should she be waking up, what type of workout should she be doing during the day to optimize the performance at night? What is she doing three hours before a show, one hour before the show, or even 20 minutes? So traditionally it's all been warming up the Voice, doing a sound check, sitting in the locker room. But I'm big about looking at the details. What do I do to optimize myself to perform? So when I get on stage, how do I know that I done everything I can physically, mentally to be at my best? And what do you do after when you get off stage?

I think you're supposed to go out for drinks and make out with fans. At least that's what I've mostly seen from the rock stars I've hung with.

Well, we'll do that for three weeks straight.

I know.

So that's, you know, when I got thrown into that world, I realized I need more tools. So that's when I got into the lifestyle. Coaching nutrition and really starting working on how I can help someone with structure and optimizing inward habits out with bad habits. The training's just a little part of it.

I love that you're saying that I went through this period when I weighed 300 pounds when I was younger. And it's all about the training. So I said, I'm going to go.

On a low fat, low calorie diet.

I'll work out an hour and a half a day, six days a week, half weights, half cardio, and I'm going to do it no matter what. And 18 months later, I was still the same weight. I was stronger, but I was still fat.

Yeah.

And it drove me nuts.

But cardio, 200 calories burnt on, on, on the treadmill that 30 minutes. And they will not, you know that cinnamon roll that is 850 calories, they don't match. No.

You can't pay for pizza on a treadmill.

No.

Comes down to nutrition.

Yeah.

When it's about weight loss.

I love hearing celebrity trainer say that because it, if someone had just told me that when I was 16, I would have just focused on my food instead of just beating myself up in the gym.

Right.

So how do you know?

Or how would someone listening know, okay, I want to change my diet, but I still should train some amount. So for a mere mortal who maybe doesn't have to look like Gal Gadot, you know, I don't have to be one or something. What, what's a normal training frequency?

Well, let me start by addressing training and nutrition. I always get the question, how much is training? How much is nutrition? Is it 50, 50, 60, 40? Just know that you shouldn't even talk about nutrition and training in the same sentence. You need to get on top of your nutrition and on top of your training, both in a balanced way. So what I would recommend to someone who wants to start that journey is to not be too hard on themselves because we tend to be go from 0 to 100 or going too extreme and then you know, you're good for a week and then you fall off the wagon and you set yourself up for failure. So a system that I use a lot is my 17 out of 20 method, which is, is bulletproof. There, there's no, you cannot fail. You never fail. You don't need to feel like a failure ever. So if you eat 20 meals, I want 17 out of 20 to be on point.

Cool.

320. Enjoy life.

Even if it's like eating complete garbage.

Or just a little bit. Yes.

See, I have a hard time with that.

I used to do that, you know, cheat days.

Right.

Kind of a similar thing.

Treat days.

Yeah.

And, or treat days. Or, and I'll still do that.

Yeah.

But on a treat day. Fine, I'll have some extra sugar. That Day, but I'm not going to eat, like, the Twinkies, or I'm not going to eat hydrogenated fat. I'm not going to eat gluten because I know I'm going to have cravings for three days afterwards, and it's going to lower my energy. It's like, how do I feel? Okay, I'm like, energy Day.

I'm like you, but most people aren't. So.

Okay, fair point.

What I'm trying. What I've realized after 20 years plus is that you need to come up with a system that. Where people don't feel like they're failing as soon as they make a mistake. So if people really want that Twinkie, they can have it. It's not going to be the greatest thing. Sugar is terrible for you. And I have, you know, it messes with me for days, but at least there's a plan. A plan of after that Twinkie. Then I know that, oh, I need to get back to my 17 clean meals.

So it's not about perfection, because perfectionism kills everything. And a lot of people say I failed on the diet, therefore it's just all Twinkies.

Correct.

And you've gotten rid of that with Magnus Method.

So if you're too extreme, you know, one Twinkie and it's over. Oh, I failed. Same thing with training. If, if. If I'm supposed to be training really hard six days a week, and I don't have it in me, and do five, I failed.

Right.

So I think that you should start. First of all, look at training holistic. I'm involved in all these extreme makeovers, right? I build these superheroes for the big screen, but I preach balance. And I think that you should look at training from a much more holistic perspective. Look at three things. One, what do I like to do? Number two, what does my body need? Number three, what do I want to master or get better at? Many times those three things are different things that might be the same that should create your weekly programming. Okay? So for me, strength training is my number one meditation. Yoga is my number two. I need it. My three is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, okay? I don't enjoy it every time. I have to admit, I'm getting my butt kicked. But I love the art form and I love to get better at it. So the. The beautiful thing about that, once you have those three figured out, you can actually make all those benefit each other. Okay, So I can do yoga poses that benefits my Brazilian Jiu jitsu, even strength training that benefits that. So I think, I think that's the way you should approach it.

Okay.

So you look to get benefits across multiple goals by just picking this up. So it's high return on investment for the minute you spend exercising. It's funny. So I. I don't have the schedule of, you know, rock star. It's every night. But I've been through weeks where I'm doing four main stage presentations in different cities, actually, quite often.

Yes.

And, you know, you're going to go in front of 15,000 people on Tony Robbins stage or something. I would never wake up and do like a heavy lift. Right. Because, like, I want. I want to bring energy to the audience. I'm not going to, you know, waste it on plates or something, but I'm going to go for a walk and do some stretches or meditation or something. So I've got blood flowing, but I'm not actually already burning out. What I'm planning to share with the audience.

Right.

Is that kind of a similar recommendation to what you're doing?

Correct. So that lift that session might have been, if you and I would work together, we would probably do that the day before. And then on the day of, we would do something that helps you to take up oxygen. Like a couple of high intensity interval.

Okay.

Couple of sprints.

A couple of sprints.

Okay.

Stretching, opening up, optimizing airflow in the lungs.

Okay.

Do you do specific breathing exercises with your clients?

I am not an expert. What I do is I work with a lot of isometric exercises to open up your lungs and to line your spine. You see, your spine is a postural muscle. It's always activated. You don't choose to activate it, so you need to work it in a different way. To reprogram it, you need to work isometric, more than six seconds. So I do isometric work on the spine.

Okay.

To reprogram you so you have a better posture and a better airflow.

So when they walk on stage, their posture is perfect. And isometrics. Some people listening may not be into training. So that's when you're pushing against a force that doesn't move. So basically standing against the wall and pushing as hard as you can, you knowing it's not going to move.

Correct.

Okay.

And so you have people that like.

Lean back and push their head back.

Against the floor kind of things.

That's one of my favorites.

Okay.

And I think that when me or my clients are traveling, when you're traveling a lot, you can do that when you're sitting in your seat on a flight as well. Just push back your spine, flatten out your neck. So that's a good one. That I recommend just to reprogram your spine because we're born this way and we die this way. So we constantly got to remind oursel to.

Okay, be up here. What kind of gear do celebrities travel with? Do they have resistance bands? Do they have magnets? I have no idea.

Depends. Depends. So we could do workout in here. I'll always find something.

Lamp curls.

Lamp curls. We could do pull ups underneath the table. We can do planks. We can use the cushion to, to, you know, you stir the pot. I have, I have training bands that I like to send with people.

Okay.

So I have, I have two, two different kits like minivans and super rubber bands that I use a lot.

I find those are really convenient for travel because they don't weigh very much.

Correct.

How about blood flow restriction? You ever messed around with that?

I have.

What do you think?

I tore my, my bicep a couple years ago and in my rehab I did that.

Okay. And I did an episode a while ago on that with the guys from B Strong. And it's, it's really interesting. I mean, you put these bands on and you, you don't, you know that, that restrict, but don't fully restrict blood flow and you don't have to have much weight and you just grow muscle. It's. It's kind of ridiculous.

Yeah. So I'm not an expert when it comes to the science, how backed up by science, if it works or not, but it, a lot of people are swearing by it and it looks like it, it's really beneficial and that's good enough for me.

I may or may not have done that yesterday I was doing a bunch of filming and also in the morning I brought my bands and I pumped them up and for about two days afterwards, there's an inch more blood flow. So at least you're getting a pump. But the science that I've seen shows via something called HIF1alpha, it actually is growing more blood flow and by changing lactic acid levels, so it is growing more muscles. So fantastic.

I'm a believer.

But you can't exactly restrict blood flow to your butt. And at least 51% of our listeners like, how do I get bigger muscles in my butt? So tell me, Magnus, what is, what is the secret having junk in your trunk?

Well, I. The key if you want to build great glutes is to, to work all three glute muscles first of all, and not just the, the big one. I I think that you should work all your the muscles in your body about two times a week, anything from one to to three times depending on the load and how many sets. But if you want to develop a nice glute muscle or bicep, I would say one and a half times per week is pretty ideal with depending on the muscle group as well anything from 9 to up to 18 sets.

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