Conscious Bacteria? The Secret New Science of Cellular Intelligence | Zach Bush : 1275

If DNA is the memory of biology, I think the energetic world or these past life experiences are the database of felt realities.

Dr. Zack Bush.

Dr. Zach Bush. Dr. Zach Bush.

The entire world is actually inside of the human DNA. Every single gene that's ever been expressed by any organism on the planet is probably stored in the human genome.

I've come to believe that mitochondria are the foundation of consciousness. And that may be a bit humanist. It may just be bacteria are the foundation of consciousness, and mitochondria are one of the many bacteria.

Nature has no purpose. Nature has an existence. But this human condition identifies that nature intended us into our existence and into our resilience and into our full potential. And it's in this last hundred years where we've accelerated this march away from that nature. Human cells don't have their own communication network, and so it should really beg the question, is humans even a species?

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Zach, Wired magazine once wrote an article that said we are surrounded by a cloud of fart and poop bacteria that identify who you are. True or false?

True.

Ew.

Yeah.

How far does this cloud extend?

It's a big fart. It's a big one. It turns out that it is a soup. It's the stew of life that sits within kind of an 8ft of the surface of the planet. In some ways, it's just this thin little horizon of life that is colliding between. Between Earth and heaven here. And it's a miracle, it's an absolute miracle that it all has evolved to the connective intelligence and beauty that it's decided to express. And we're very fortunate to be part of that.

That was so much gratitude. Now I'm sitting within eight feet of you. Are you upgrading my microbiome by your mere presence?

Yeah, I think it seems that's why I made you pick me up in the Jeep, by getting my Uber to deliver me to the wrong place. So we could start that microbiome swap early, get the full intercourse going here.

Seriously though, does being around other people just change your microbiome?

It goes beyond that. Yeah. I mean, we're swapping information at such extreme levels. So my second subspecially was in endocrinology and metabolism. And so the first half of that specialty is looking at the way in which organ systems communicate through hormones. The second half of that is looking at the mitochondria, which are small bacteria that live inside our cells, communicate, and produce life giving force and communication networks. Throughout the system. And so as I got deeper and deeper in that, I was doing cancer research and realized that the concept of nutrition was being seen backwards. I had been told that it was carbohydrates and proteins and macronutrients, micronutrients. But really the difference between that nutrition and nourishment is when the community starts to fellowship around those nutrients. And so when nutrients are coming to the body, they're tossed around in this soup of life. Bacteria, fungi, protozoa, parasites, and that system, that complex intelligence system. System then takes nutrients and turns them into nourishment. And the difference there is almost vibrational. Instead of just being a carbon connected to a hydrogen or an oxygen, you really get these situations where there's a life force within the system. And when we start to kill the microbiome, we can eat the same things. And this is the challenge of the supplement industry, is the reason we're supplementing ourselves is because our food system died some decades ago. We never needed nutritional supplements. The whole concept's a bit of a red flag of, like, we might have a problem. But the fact that we're spending $250 billion on supplements is pointing to this fact that it's getting really hard to get nutrients out of food into a body. And unfortunately, we're finding more and more is that putting the supplement into your gut is not actually going to make the difference. It's actually getting the life force between the nutrient and the body. It's creating the nourishment of community and that ecosystem that actually makes the body thrive. And that's not something we can get in a bottle. And so that's something we've got to discover in our reconnection to complex ecosystems out, out and around us.

If that's not something you can get in a bottle, why do you make a supplement in a bottle that I like?

Yeah, so that's. That's actually what we've captured. So instead of a macronutrient or micronutrient, that bottle is a soil system that's suspended in water. And so we've been learning from nature over the last 15 years that nature and it's reflected in every indigenous culture. Actually, if you go to the bush of Africa or Australia, or down into the Brazilian rainforest, every meal is understood to be the dance of elements. In some tradition, it's five elements that are seen as they add the ether. But at very least, you're sitting there with fire, water, air and soil and earth in that kind of system. Of the four elements within A nourishment system. And so that was understood historically. And as we've killed the microbiome of our soils through chemical farming, our team has been looking further and further back in time as what went missing in the system and what we found and what ended up in that bottle of ion, is that missing piece between the history of community and so and the monoculture of today's soil systems. And so when you lose community, you inherently lose communication. And when you lose communication, you lose the inherent ability for cell repair, regeneration, all that. And so that's why so many people are reaching for stem cells or peptides. And all this is because there's a failure of communication at cellular level. So we've taken simply a different approach to health and nutrition in the sense that instead of trying to micromanage nutrients, what happens if we put the nourishment back into the system? And so ion's been this really fascinating journey into realizing that the system is so complex that it would be nearly impossible to even start to understand what question to ask, let alone come up with a reductionist answers to how we're going to create connected ecosystems again.

Well, if glyphosate has this power to destroy the community, why wouldn't a compound or a set of compounds have the ability to restore it?

It's actually the community that goes and restores it. And in 2012, we were able to show that the family of molecules made by a diverse ecosystem within soil systems is actually the antidote to Roundup. And so it wasn't until we started creating these perfect storms of chemicals in the 1970s. So the green revolution, which was basically chemical agriculture at scale, started in the 1960s, really got its foothold in the 1970s. And by that time we were using things like Agent Orange, which is 2, 4D, and we were using atrazine. And then glyphosate came along in 1976 to be kind of the new kid on the block, and it became the. The granddaddy of them all almost instantly. It was so effective at. At killing microorganisms. And our lab for the last 15 years been really working on what's actually happening to a human cell when glyphosate touches it, because it's been touted as a very safe compound to farmers and consumers and regulators and governments. And so nobody had really done the correlative studies down to structure function. And so we're very fortunate that Stephanie sneff out of MIT, starting in late 1990s, did the correlations of here's the amount of roundups sprayed in a region, here's the amount of chronic disease that comes into that population within five to 10 years. So she gave us a really Beautiful and continues 25 years later to give us the definitive science on the correlation between herbicide use and chronic disease paradigms. Our lab came along recognizing that nobody was changing their paradigm because all of the industry was still able to say, well, it's just a correlation, it's not causation. And so we've been working on the exact mechanisms. And this year our definitive paper will come up. That's 10 years in the making. But we've published some other papers along the way showing that glyphosate is the foundation of gluten sensitivity and all of these things. And so what we've accepted as a normal state of disease didn't exist when I started my medical training in the early 1990s. And so 1992, we didn't have gluten sensitivity, we didn't have celiac diseases and epidemic, we didn't have Lyme disease and epidemic, we didn't have chronic fatigue syndromes, we didn't have fibromyalgia, we didn't have chronic regional pain syndromes. And so we've had to create a whole new diagnostic book on what humans are now presenting with over the years. So the exact mechanisms are actually pretty profound in that they give us a sense of how are we going to find our way out of this crisis we've created. Because the first thing that happens when you put the communication network back between the cells. And again, just to put emphasis on it, human cells don't have their own communication network. And so it should really beg the question, is humans even a species?

What do you mean they don't have a communication network? I know like five signaling mechanisms.

Those signaling mechanisms are being made by the ecosystem around and within the cell.

Oh, you're saying the mitochondria are not a part of the cell because they talk to each other with biophotons. Right.

They live inside your cells, but they're certainly non human. They have their own genome, their DNA is, you know, they've got their own frequency. We now know that they store a lot of their reproductive DNA inside the human nucleus, within our DNA. And so the microbiome is a description of life itself. Biosis is probably the unifying definition here. Biosis refers to the complex interconnected relationships that make life possible. And so when you look at a species that's now multicellular, and not just an earthworm, multicellular but a human multicellular, where you're dealing with extreme amounts of information that's coursing through this body and creates complex symphony of. You've got to have an entire, not just community, you've got to have a civilization moving into human. And its numbers are grand. We've only got 70 trillion human cells, which is a large number, it's about the size of US national debt. And so you had 70 trillion cells that are powered by 1.4 quadrillion bacteria, somewhere around 10 times that much in fungi, protozoa, the rest. And then you've got 14, quadrillion, mitochondria living inside the human cells to create that organic garden system of communication, networking inside the cells. And my area of expertise in the cancer world was mitochondrial metabolism in cancer cells. And what you find out is long before a cancer cell can become cancer, that human cell is having a degeneration of the soil system inside of it and outside of it. And so this loss of gut microbiome, which is tied to skin microbiome, respiratory microbiome, so the whole body we used to really think, well the colon we can accept, there's bacteria there, but the rest of the body must be sterile. No, it's not actually. The brain has its own microbiome, the prostate has its own microbiome. So organ in the body is teeming with organisms outside the cells. And inside the cells are unique subsets of the mitochondria, which are very diverse in their genome. Expression speciation is very difficult in mitochondria and it really is. We've kind of thrown up our hands saying we can't because they change so fast. A mitochondrial will change its genomic expression a few times a day. And so that speed of morphology that the mitochondria are doing is giving humans our adaptation factor. The reason I can jump from, you know, my day yesterday where it's, you know, 13 degrees somewhere up north, and then suddenly I'm in 80 degree weather down here. My mitochondria adapt immediately. My thermal regulation in my core adapts instantaneously. I turn on microorganisms that weren't working yesterday. And so it's that plasticity relies on the biodiversity inside my cells and outside my cells. And as soon as you start to lose that macro micro ecosystems, the communication networks are gone. And so the ion is what we're using as a bridge. There's, we would like to put ion out of business completely in the next 20 years. So all of our money has been going into non profits and other Companies that are trying to solve for these root cause breakdowns in food systems and macro, you know, desertification cycles, plants in, and everything else. Because there's, it's illogical that we should need fossil soil to make available the nourishment of today's nutrients. We've got to learn from that and reprogram our modern soil such that our grandchildren would never need a bottle of anything to be nourished by the mother of the earth here. And so we've got to reconnect these systems if we're going to survive. And we're right at that really interesting point of an extinction of a human species, which is to say the death of ecosystems that express themselves through a human species.

I've come to believe that mitochondria are the foundation of consciousness. And that may be a bit humanist. It may just be bacteria are the foundation of consciousness and mitochondria are one of the many bacteria. And I also think they're the basis of chi, or life force energy as people call it. Do you agree or disagree?

Well, let's go back to a definitive life. And then consciousness is basically the life experiencing the cosmos. And so life experiencing the cosmos. Recovery requires a perspective. And to get a perspective on nature, you've got to have a whole lot of energy to separate your perception. Right? Right. And so much of nature is so integrated into nature that it doesn't know the difference between itself and the sunset, the sunrise. And so the birds in the air, the elephant in the bush, they don't seem to notice the spectacular thing that's happening off to the horizon there. And all the humans stop and stare at that sun and just sit and on. We meditate for three hours while that sun's dropping down over the horizon of Africa. We're the only species that does that. And it gets me very curious about this issue around what is causing that much perception to happen to allow us to stop and wonder at the beauty of nature. And in the end, it has to do with light concentration. And so light in physics world is manifest as stars, suns. And so these suns are nuclear fission and fusion events. That's the brightest thing physics can do. But no matter how much sun that light is pumping out of that orb, there's no life around it. It's vacuum space forever. It's not until that light energy is captured by a carbon molecule that we start to have the possibility of life. There's a lot of focus on water as necessary for life and all this. And there's no question for our version of biology that we have on this planet. Water is necessary, but it would never happen on an aqueous planet if there was not carbon, because carbon is the methodology by which we can concentrate sunlight. And it takes about a thousand fold concentration of light energy before you can manifest light in enough concentration to get life. And so that's where the mitochondria come in, is it's the mitochondria, they're breaking apart the double and single carbon bonds to release sunlight back into the system. With enough light, then you can have the experience of what we might call consciousness. With enough light, you can coordinate enough particle states in enough diversity to start to be able to create intelligence, Stacking geometries in a lot of ways. And so physics is stacking itself in more and more complex geometries that then focus or consolidate energy, sunlight, if you will. And with the concentrate of that, then you get these vibrational information streams going that then allow for something to appear that we would call intelligence. And we've shown, you know, in science now, around the microbiome, a single course of antibiotics wipes out that gut flora, and your creativity goes down, your rate of depression goes up, your rate of anxiety disorders, sleep disorders, Everything goes off the charts, because you just lost the workforce, because you lost all those stacking geometries of thousands of species that were contributing to different versions of concentrated light energy. The bacteria are good at it. They'll concentrate about a thousand fold of light energy. But mitochondria are the masters. So they came along about 2 billion years ago as two bacteria combined forces. That's an archaea, which is one of the more ancient versions of bacteria. They can survive in acid pools and all kinds of noxious environments. And archaea came along and seemed to have swallowed a methane producing mycobacterium. And the two of those happened to have a collaborative membrane relationship that allowed a 10x improvement in energy production. And so suddenly we went from fermentation of single cells to the opportunity for a multicellular creature, because inside of that double bacteria was so much energy production that it led for an immediate upgrade in biology. And so again, we get to see biology is going to follow suit as to how much light is concentrated per cubic centimeter on the planet. And so in that way, mitochondria are right at the root of the force of life, as you said. And in that, with enough of it, with enough collaboration, we can get something that appears to be consciousness.

We know that our gut bacteria and our mitochondria actually manufacture light, small amounts of it Right. So there's like bioluminescence in the gut. And it looks like light isn't just energy there, it's also a communications mechanism for that network.

That's exactly right.

What can we do to enhance that communications network so that light works better either externally or internally?

Yeah. So there's a couple mechanisms that the body uses. The first is fiber optic cables. And so the fiber optic cables between human cells, known as gap junctions, are complex systems. A gap junction sits between two human cells, every single human cell. And necessarily being connected by multiple gap junctions to the adjacent ones, you might have 3, 5, 10 gap junctions. And under an electron microscope, you can see that that gap junction as a whole cable System measures about 10 times smaller than a human hair in its circumference. Then you zoom in on that again and you find out there's a thousand cables inside that. And on the end of every one of those thousand cables is a perfect three dimensional aperture, just as you'd see in a camera lens. And the aperture opens and closes, tightens, and to let light through or close it down. And so you're literally doing fiber optic communication down at the cellular level as one cell pulses in. And I think science has gotten away with suggesting there's not much energy in human cells again and again. And so they say, well, there's not that much light energy. A tiny bit of light energy, well, that's light emitting from the cell. They haven't calculated the amount of electromagnetic field being pulsed out and electricity from the cell. They haven't pot and measure the amount of. Or somebody will go measure that and say, wow, there's very little electricity. But then you think about, well, how much energy does it take to make a material particle? Because we know all that electricity has to go into a particle to rebirth your cells every millionth of a second, because you're actually not solid. You're rebirthing all the time from vacuum space. And so we just keep brushing aside relativity and quantum physics all the time when it comes to human biology. And we're like, well, we're made of cells. No, you're not. You're made of atomic structure, which means you're mostly vacuum space. And to re manifest enough particle, you've got to generate so much energy all the time. And so that's, I think, where our calculations start to get into these accurate numbers. Like, whoa, this is way more than physics has to offer. Life is so much more light filled, so much more energetic, because all that light is becoming particle, it's becoming electricity, it's becoming magnetic fields, becoming emitted light, it's becoming thermal heat. And so we're using all that energy from that stored sunlight, from carbon in a million ways to manifest what we would call life.

It's such an elegant and beautiful explanation. And there's one thing that's coming to mind that maybe pokes a hole in it. Germ free mice, they don't have a community of bacteria. They live in cages, kind of, they're sealed cages where no bacteria get in there. But they really don't get sick. They actually are ripped almost no matter what they eat, as long as you don't give them a microbiome. And as soon as they get regular mouse poop, then they get all the normal diseases. Why would life without a microbiome thrive?

Because they're not without microbiome. Because the 10 times that of the bacteria that they're saying is they're stripped of is the mitochondria inside their cells. And so they're just small bacteria that they're not measuring.

So they still have mitochondria, they have life, but, but they thrive like they can do things that you can't do if you have other bacteria in your gut. So maybe all the bacteria in our gut really aren't our friends.

Well, I would say there's two ways to do that. And so there's adaptation. So as soon as the, the microbiome would call the macrobiome that's out there in the gut and all that versus the micro system of the mitochondria inside of yourself, the rate of adaptation again is extremely fast. And I have this eerie feeling that we're about to find out in our DNA science that the ENT world is actually inside of the human DNA? Every single gene that's ever been expressed by any organism on the planet is probably stored in the human genome. And the reason that's so sneaking on me these days is like when I keep looking at the science coming out around how much of our DNA is not making human proteins. And then to find out that the mitochondria are actually storing a bunch of their genome inside of the human DNA outsource and they can go and access that at any time they want. That starts to get weird. It's like, wait, why now have we been able to relegate in the scientific brain that it's only mitochondria that are storing all their genes inside of our DNA? Isn't it just as likely that my entire gut microbiome at some point has stored its DNA inside My human nucleotides. And you're like, well, that's a lot of genes, Zach. That's a lot of genetic information. But then you start to look at how much genetic information is in the human body. Each cell in my body that I would call human contains about a meter of DNA. And so if we took your body apart and we strung all of your DNA end to end, you would wrap around the circumference of the earth. Take a guess. How many times would one human wrap around the earth?

Probably a few dozen.

Yeah, exactly. It's 25,000 miles of DNA in meters is actually 2 million.

2 million times.

You would wrap around the Earth 2 million times.

Wow.

And so you start to think of these tiny, tiny, microscopic nucleotide sequences holding information. And then think of how much information is around entire circumferences and now multiply to 2 million other.

Isn't that DNA just repeated?

That's the dogma is that, well, one human cell has the same DNA. That's something. But we now know that's absolutely not true because the microbiome in one cell is radically different than the other. And so the genes that are being stored inside of one set of cell from their microbiome could easily be holding genetic information not reflected next door.

Are you talking about the microbiome included, not just mitochondrial and nuclear DNA?

Exactly. So that's quite possible. Now it's possible that we've got a whole lot of life being stored in the memory of human DNA and it's being fractured up in microrna and micro DNA strand nucleotide sequences. So it's not obvious to us right now because our current tools are so fascinated and so refined to this protein synthesis issue. If it doesn't make a protein, it's not a gene. And we've held that for a long time in our definition of DNA. Well, if only 1.5% of the human genome is coding for a protein, what's that other 98.5% of the genome doing? And I think that's the part that's most plastic. And so you're probably passing on that one and a half percent with quite a bit of predictability. But I am curious to know how much we might find out is being stored elsewhere. And so when you say these are germ free mice living in a cage, how much of that information is actually available to the mouse already in its own DNA? And is the mouse able to, in light of a missing neural pathway or a detox pathway because the bacteria aren't there? Doing it, what's likely, they might be able to access that enzyme in a collaboration with the mitochondria inside of themselves to repeat that journey. And so the body's in constant adaptation. And the thing about the germ free mice is they had to develop those slowly. It took generations of training those things how to stay alive before they were able to do what they do. So it's not like, like you just give an antibiotic to a mouse and they do better. Now you kill mouse immediately if you give them enough antibiotics to make them sterile. And so they had to be bred, you know, generation after generation to reach this, this lifespan that was reasonable of a few months, you know, in this germ free environment.

One of the things that, that I collect is we'll say corner cases or things that aren't supposed to happen but do happen. And the typical human being will say that can't happen, therefore it didn't, therefore whoever's reporting it is a bad man. It's a very childish view of the world, but it's just something that our brains do to save energy, I think. And there was a study a while ago where they took bacteria that couldn't digest lactate, they didn't have the ability to do that, and they put them in a solution that only had lactate as a fuel source, nothing else. And you would expect them to starve to death. But they didn't. They changed their genetics to be able to survive in that environment. And it completely pokes Darwin in, in the eye, right? And people say, oh, that was just one. It doesn't matter if it was just one. Like that's the definition of science. So now we have a story that's useful about reality, but it's not accurate, it's just useful. And so that, that's a very small bacteria level case of what you just described, right?

Where life adapts, life adapts. And the most obvious place that we're completely wrong about everything is viruses. We keep thinking that viruses cause something. And so we attribute a syndrome of an illness to a virus. Viruses are a rebranding of something that's known as an exosome. And so exosomes are the process in which, which any species exudes its genome outside of its body, but it doesn't exude the genome that is currently being expressed in the body. It exudes a new possibility for its own body or for nature to express. And so the virome as a definition of all of the viruses on the planet that have been exuded by all of them, Microecoustes, macroecosystems of the planet. That database of information is the imagination of nature's future that hasn't occurred yet. And we've chosen to demonize that thing, saying, well, if there's any problems with our current biology, it must be that thing over there, because it must be against us. And so we got this story that got baked into our mindset somewhere between germ theory, which was mostly talking about bacteria, and this kind of new viromic theories that were coming through after Watson and Crick came along and said, oh, my gosh, there's DNA and there's genes everywhere, and you might be getting infected by somebody else's genes and all this. And so we developed this new version of gene of germ theory, which is a little bit interesting because they aren't actually living. And this is often overlooked. It's very common. You read a definition of microbiome and they'll throw the viruses in there. The viruses are not the microbiome. The word biome means living organisms and their relationships. There is no life inside of a virus. There's no energy production, there's no energy storage. There's just a strand of DNA with a few proteins that can help translate that if it ends up. Up needing, being needed by biology. And so what's happening is we are creating a, in some ways, a memory of all of the possibilities that we could have been before we became human when we create our exosome base. And so in my breath right now, I'm exerting on this room a lot of imagination in my urine and my feces and all of the excrement of my body, all of the system is carrying these little exosomes. And this is the human that hasn't lived yet. This is the human that will come after us in the sense that this will be the intelligence of biology once our extinction is complete. And so I love that about nature. When you show her stress, and especially if you show her a lot of stress, she immediately is imagining the next version of what's going to come. And it's always going to be more diverse, more beautiful, and more intelligent than it was with her previous iteration. And so viruses in this intelligence is not able to take over a human cell as we're told. You breathe it in, it takes over your cells, and it remanufactures itself, and then those go. And if that was really the case, you'd be dead by every virus. What's stopping it from doing that? And why did you decide to make it in the first place is my curiosity of like, actually for all this fear around gain of function laboratories. That's what biology is. It's one giant gain of function biological laboratory. And so life is constantly scanning for its next opportunity. And so in my bloodstream right now, I've got about 10 billion viruses, I've got 10 to the ninth viruses that are coursing through my bloodstream. Not the same one, it's not repeating, it's different. So I've got 10 billion new genetic sequences that are pulsing through my bloodstream right now. And every one of my 70 trillion cells will be exposed to that over the next 15 minutes. Every cell will scan all 10 billion of those. And so as my bloodstream courses through my body, every cell is scanning, scanning, scanning. And if there's a gain of function opportunity, it says, ah, I think I could use that one. And it takes that up inside of it. And then a huge roundtable has to be assembled to decide if this is going to be what we do. So nobody can decide a new protein, it's too important. You can kill the species if you make the wrong protein. And so the most regulated step in biology is the decision to make a protein from a gene. It takes 200 CO factors, CO repressors, co activators to get into concert around the enzyme that will translate that RNA strand or DNA strand from the virus into a protein or into a retrovirus and then code back into your DNA. Those steps are highly, highly regulated. It is impossible that a gene comes in to take over your body. It doesn't have any of the apparatus to do anything to your body. And so it's really has the apparatus is a collaboration that's beyond complexity. And so what's happening is our bodies are constantly updating, constantly updating, and then we get sick. And the moment you get sick means that there was one of those gain of functions that got proved out at the cellular level that was critical for your survival. And so now you got to go pass that thing around. So most of the uptake, I think, goes unseen. I'm probably updating a gene. I don't know, it could be every millionth of a second. I'm taking up one of those 10 billion new options and updating my body with it. But when we get sick, that's the moment where your body's like, okay, I'm going to use this all over the place. This needs to go everywhere. And so I'm going to put this person in bed, I'm going to shut down their Their energy system. I'm going to put all that energy into protein synthesis and we're going to go about restructuring the whole body. It's very much like rebooting your computer. And so you got to shut the damn thing down and upload the new operating system and go. So when you see the fever and all this, this is your body's decision to do a major upgrade. And then you might say, well, people die from that stuff. Like people do die.

Like smallpox or herpes or something. These are viruses. It seems like what's going on with those?

Yeah, so. So you could pick any of them. If flu is the most common one to kill people. Right. And so you got flu and you got. But you get to point to something.

I thought flu had been rebranded to get rebranded.

It was a good PR campaign. But, but the, that flu is that flu virus is there to again do this gain of function update in ways that we don't even. We're not smart enough to know yet as scientists what's happening there. Why is that one being picked? Why is that being disseminated through the whole body? So what happens when you, you end up dying from something is not because the virus came in as a takeover. It's because your body tried to do a critical update and you didn't have the energy to implement it.

So it's always down to mitochondrial energy.

It's how many mitochondria are burning inside your cell, period.

And we're kind of aligned. I describe myself as a mitochondrial fetishist.

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I realized I had chronic fatigue and this is back in the late 90s. And like I know my energy is broken, so I'm going to go after the energy production system because I'm a computer hacker and you realize it's a complex network, a distributed intelligence and that it's listening to the environment. Like these are what made the biohacking thing happen. And that viewpoint works for almost every disease I've ever come across. Oh, you have migraines, let's fix your mitochondria, like let's fix the fuel source for them. You know, you have insert name of whatever it is, including things that can't be cured. You find the thing that makes the mitochondrial network stronger or makes them make more energy and more light. To your point, magically things get better. And what I don't understand yet is, you know, what is the set of most important variables in the environment? I know that there's light and there's temperature and there's timing and there's vibration and there's chemicals. Even things like essential oils are chemicals. And then there's the bacterial environment, right? And there's magnetic stuff that's happening and there's subatomic particles that are actually involved in that. How do you order that list of all these environmental things that are important signals for you so that you can make some semblance of it?

If we were bodies that had souls, then we'd go after the body. But I think we're souls that have body. Agreed. And so we are these magnificent energy centers with complex geometries that have been here since the origin of time as a Reasonable model.

We kind of created time reality.

And so, well, time exists. Time is something that we like to perceive.

Well, we perceive it, doesn't mean it's real.

Well, I would argue that there is a fourth dimension, and that fourth dimension measures the distance between two events or two masses as they move through space. Time. And so it's, it's a measurement of one of the dimensions of reality is time. When we start to try to make some conclusions about, you know, time as a fixed construct, that's where that starts to break down. And so because it's a multi dimensional phenomenon, it's only relevant in its relationship or context of the other dimensional inputs. Time gets pretty warpy. Like it's a bendable thing, just as mitochondria are.

It feels like time and love, they both exist, but they're not that easy to pin down because they're things we perceive, they change. Right.

Well, I think you just answered your own question with that one, actually. So how do you make sense of all this stuff? And for me, the answer for me and used to be patients, and now they become my collaborators. And I've shut my clinic down realizing that anytime I put somebody in a patient provider relationship, it breaks down the empowerment of an individual. And they can't reach their healing unless I get out of the equation. And so we created the journey of intrinsic health as a methodology for allowing eight people to come into a constellation to witness each other's intrinsic health. And what that has been helping us show is that the real matrix we're living in is the masculine and the feminine qualities of a plant. Not just a planet, but actually nature itself in the cosmos. The masculine is simply that which will witness the flow of energy, which we would call the feminine. And so when you have a witness and you have a flow, then coherence occurs. And so really what we were being called to is letting go of all of our reductionist beliefs about nutrition and supplements and all the things, and start to ask that question, how do we create complex systems in which we can all hold still enough to witness another and then say, say our response to that which is going to be a frequency in which when we see beauty, we induce this waveform that we call unconditional love.

Love.

And when we experience that back, we get gratitude. And so we get this nice interchange of unconditional love and gratitude, which are two frequencies that are basically connecting your eternal state. It might be a soul to your biology. And if you're lacking those connections, the body dies quite quickly in a state of Isolation, disease, inflammation, everything else, because you've lost the original math. And so the translator between the infinite and the finite are these frequencies that are generated by a body when it experiences itself, when it experiences the beauty of nature in itself, around itself. And so for me, I've started to realize that anytime I put some tool or some solution into a patient's field, my most likely outcome is to decrease their capacity for real healing.

Are mitochondria masculine or feminine?

It depends on which phase you're in, I think. Everything's got masculine, feminine. A single bacteria has to have both, a single atom has to have both, or else a, it doesn't stay stable. And so the masculine is basically the fabric of the cosmos that is structurally still. So it's basically you got this web of energy that stays in a relationship to one another where there's vector equilibrium, meaning there's stillness. What flows through that, then we would call the feminine. And so this is the life force, if you will. And so you've got something that, that's stationary, and then you've got life force in the universe. And as soon as something that's still witnesses the motion and the beauty that that would create, then it can create a particle out of that light. But if unwitnessed, it just stays as the potential for something solid. And this is the observer effect in physics. So that two slit experiment, if there's no sensor around, no humans, and no electrical sensor, nothing, that X ray behind that steel plate is covered with this rainbow of possibilities. And the light just goes simply everywhere. And it's like, wait, how is that possible? There's only two slits. You're shining a light through these two slits, you can clearly see it. As soon as you go into the room, you say, yeah, there's only two little slits of light that are allowed through that steel plate. How is the entire X ray film seeing all those potential? It's because nobody has witnessed the light. And so it remains in its infinite possibilities. You put a sensor in there, you put a human in there, or just a little electrical sensor, and suddenly there's two perfect slits expressed on the X ray film. The observation of the phenomenon is what's creating everything in its solid form. So the steel plate doesn't even exist if there's not even a sensor to differentiate the world in which we see the static and the motion. But you put an observer in this thing, then everything is in this particle state. And so whether it's a mitochondria, a single atom, you've got to have this marriage of the masculine and feminine, which is an observer effect in Taoism or.

Tantra or even Sheila Kelly at the last biohacking conference talks about the masculine energy form qigong. It's like standing still, like holding space. And then the feminine expression is, you know, dance and movement. And there's several different types of, like shamanic or in that realm of healing ceremonies where the man's job and that is just be present and grounded and still, which allows massive transformation for feminine energy. And it creates a loop and you know, the old principle from alchemy and as above, so below and all that which is an expression of, well, the universe is probably holographic, which supports your idea that inside of you is all life inside your DNA. Because it seems like that's a principle of reality. It's just one that a lot of modern scientists absolutely reject. Why do they reject it?

I think we're after specialness. Ultimately we're really afraid that we got kicked out of nature. We have this uniform abandonment disorder that's got us running around trying to engineer ourselves back into nature. And so we're doing all kinds of technologies and everything else. When you go through, you know, a biohacking event, and I was just one in London, 1200 booths. And at the end of the day, you realize what you heard over and over again is people telling you that this technology replaces this part of nature. This, this part's going to do this thing. Then, you know, and the answer in the end is like, wow, shoot this weekend, next weekend, instead of the bio cameras, we should all just go to the beach together and we get all of that beauty in there. And so our technologies right now are a bridge back to nature or our avenue to death and extinction. And so it's not the technology that's wrong, it's the application of it. And so if our technologies are taking us further away from nature, we are doomed if our technologies sit there and stare us in the face until we realize that nature had all of our solutions when we were self organized in our mother's womb, then we, we're in a different pattern of life expression. So not the technology. Good, bad. But the question is, how are we applying that technology? Or what are the lessons we're learning from it?

Maybe nature once had all of the answers, but our soil has been massively destroyed. There are species that don't exist anymore that ought to be in our microbiome. And I kind of think it's helpful to use some red light therapy, right, which is directly communicating with mitochondria. And actually increasing that light in the body. Yes, sun is good for you. You can only lay in the sun, at least if you're as pale as I am, for so long before you start getting a sunburn, Right?

So, well, you only take. You only need that few minutes, a few minutes in sunshine with a full band with then all your mitochondria getting all that stimulation. Five minutes is plenty. Takes very little time for light energy penetrates the human body at an extreme rate. You know, the radiation from the sun overall, whether it be light, electromagnetic, gamma ray, whatever it is, that stuff is through the entire system in a matter of milliseconds. And so you spend five minutes times milliseconds, suddenly you're in quadrillions of updates across the system. And so five minutes of sunshine. I'll put that, you know, against any technology we've come up so far. But the reality is we're living in environments where people are not getting the sun. And so, again, the technology. I'm not saying the technology doesn't work. I'm just saying the technology needs to point us back to a reintegration with nature, because in the end, we don't have enough technologies to. To create biosis. We. Nobody has actually created life.

That is a very important point. And it's funny, you know, I. I created the biohacking movement, and I also created a regenerative farm to live on and raise my kids on, because I recognize the benefits of the soil, but I don't mind adding energy. And, you know, Brandon Crawford was just on the show, and he's using very specific wavelengths of light to communicate with mitochondria. And he's taking people with ALS or children with brain injuries, and he's regrowing their brains in a way that sunlight doesn't. So it feels like there's times when we can use tech to help a mother nature.

That's right. And. And I don't know if we're helping her as much as revealing her. And so we're revealing what the nature intended when we were living in TUG because the ALS and Ms. Didn't exist a few decades ago. It's like we've created these syndromes, and then we run around finding the technology, thinking that the technology needs to heal the disease, when in fact the technology reveals what did we eliminate in our relationship to nature first. And so we need to be hesitant when we say we found something that cures a disease, because it's probably just revealing why we got the disease. And so that's where the technology can be so helpful is like, oh, well, now we got to go find that specific frequency in nature and ask what were we doing in 1800 that kept ALS out of the system? Because it's too expensive to let somebody develop a neurodegenerative disorder and then give them treatment. And the fact is we never get them back to baseline with technology. We might improve them, but we've never created a fetus inside of a uterus like that. That level of intelligence, that level of nature, I marvel at it because it's. You look at just the headlines that glimpsed as I walked through a hotel lobby this morning. I don't know why we're talking about Elon Musk so much at all, but we talk about that guy all the time. And we're so enamored with the fact that he and his engineers have filled steel tubes with liquid rocket fuel and lit them on fire. And they shoot up in the air and then they fall back to earth and that thing is going over and over and everybody's like, oh my gosh. Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands of women that this morning gave birth to a baby that's self organized in her womb. And there's no headlines. The disease of humans is we cannot see the miracle of life.

It's, it's so profound. And I've often said, and people say, what's the, the biggest thing you can do for longevity? Have a healthy mom, right? How many generations back does that affect happening?

I mean, it's been pretty easy in mice to map back 40 generations. But just to go back 40 generations and find out that that, that 40th generation back is still contributing to your epigenetic genetic patterns suggests that it never stops. Right? And so the genetic memory is, is long lived. And this is why we have to, we have to change our relationship to our concept of life right now. Because if we keep trying to, you know, hack our way out of 40 generations or 4,000 generations of trauma that was baked into this belief that we're separate from nature. And all the scarcity and the fear and the guilt, the shame and all the patterns of war battles that come out of that, we're hopeless. We've got 68% infertility rates in a number of different places. We've got. Sperm counts have plummeted by 60% are still going down. The US population, our birth rate as three weeks ago published was 1.61. Anything under 2.1 is extinction. Every 10% below is another generation short, shorter. And so we are a couple generations from extinction in our own country. And Japan's already going extinct. We've got 30 million empty residences in Tokyo in the next five or 10 years because they're just aging out because there were no children. That's what extinction looks like. And the human brain, because we haven't gotten to the point where we're seeing fundamental collapse of the city systems yet because everybody's been 20 years out in the U.S. right? At the most. At the most. Yeah, yeah. No, I think the US is already shrinking at 1.61. If, if it wasn't for immigration right now, we would have, you know, totally empty cities.

Why aren't you going around like Elon and just having babies all left and right?

There's part of me that thinks that I. I'm getting ready for that. There's part of me that thinks that I'm. I'm approaching a moment where I'm going to become an energetic memory of the possibilities of who I could have been. But if any other point before this, I would have just passed on the genetics of all the trauma, the 40 generations before me.

So you were doing the personal development work before you go and have a bunch of babies.

Babies, that's right.

So more than one mother. What's the deal here?

I don't know what it's going to look like in a few years. Like, we're gonna have such a fundamental collapse of biology that I think that, you know, we can't imagine the process that's going to restore this. This species. It's going to have to be a very intense, you know, collaboration because there's going to be such a fine, that little eye of the needle that we got to shoot through. Now, if we're going to make. Make this gap so that we can stay in play, it's going to have to be a collaboration that's not going to be like relationships and marriages and open relationships. It's going to be. How high of a frequency of authenticity can a human create to remember the original design, the original birthright of humans? And that takes an enormous amount of ritual and ceremony around a human to remember what it is, because it has to be in an environment where it breaks the story. You've got to lose. Lose the story of humans being separate from anything. And to do that, you've got to get into these very high frequency states. And that's what we call shamanic states. It's what we call things. And so when you go and sit with African shamans in the bush, you don't sit for long because they're going to activate you so intensely that you're going to reach these frequencies where the only options are really to dance, scream, move, chant, have sex. The intensity of these rituals have been long known, and they've been used to save us many, many times. And so we remember even how to do this, which is we need to stop being genetic expressions of one ancestor to another. Because when we just communicate genetically through the ancestry, we're doomed because we're passing on all the collective trauma. With each generation, it gets worse. Three generations without healing. An epigenetic wound, it becomes a germline mutation. So now it's not an epigenetic modification. It's a new gene modification. And so now that's going to be every single generation to come. We've had that for generations and generations.

Generations.

My sperm and the DNA in it are the memory of the human trauma as a collective. And so as I started to experience all of this, I'm like, I don't think that I want to be part of that. And so how do I become something new? How would I pass on new information instead of the old information? I would have to come into a moment of frequency where all of the genetic trauma is somehow erased. And the only way that you can do that is actually send your protons back in time and this happens. And if it had never happened, and if I. Then I wouldn't put this out there, but I have seen it happen hundreds of times in my own patients.

Yeah.

And it's called spontaneous remission in the medical charts.

Right.

And so when spontaneous remission occurs, I mean, the most classic ones are like, four fourth stage cancer tumors in the brain. And then suddenly the person's talking again, and now they're walking again, they're eating. And then finally the doc is like, like, we should scan that person.

Right.

And you scan them, and there's no evidence the tumor was ever there. In a healing process, you end up with scar tissue. You have things and, you know, all of the cell signaling pathways. It's very complicated process to heal, and it leaves behind this matrix. So when we say, here's a technology that grows brain cells and people with als, what's happening is there's fibrous tissue and there's scar tissue, and so you're crawling back to some sort of function, but you are healing. You're not spontaneously remitting, and so you're healing something, and you will end up slightly better than you were before in a good scenario, maybe a lot better. Than you were before, but not where you were originally intended to be. To do the original intention, you could, you have to do a spontaneous remission. The only way to do that is happens, has to happen instantaneously across the whole system, which means it needs basically an operating system update to the original design. And so that operating system update is what we're trying to do. And so Journey of Intrinsic Health and our immersive experience that we're doing is seven days of intensely putting people in these spaces of high vibrational experience where they can suddenly access that original information. And if they can see the original program for just a millionth of a second, all of the protons will revert to their original design. And so the proton will forget that there was 40 generations of trauma between the insult and this cancer. And the tissue simply goes back to express what it intended, which was human, which is to say an ecosystem expressing itself in beauty.

It's got a lot of relationship to what we do. At 40 years of Zen and in fact heavily meditated. My new book, I talk about these altered states, including the shamanic states and tantra and a lot of the things that we just covered. And people go through their own life and they'll use something called the reset process to completely remove the, the echoes of trauma from this life. And when they're done with that, they kind of split into two groups, actually three groups. One of them is they'll go into their experience in the womb and then they undo the trauma they experienced in utero. And from there, some of them are just called like, I feel like I'm going to heal generational trauma. And you're saying, what do you mean, heal generational trauma? There are techniques and you know them because, you know, shamanic stuff. And so they do that and like, oh my gosh, like I did that. And then my mother, I haven't talked to in a long time just called me this evening and I don't know why. And you've seen this all the time with your patients as well, right?

It's beautiful. It's beautiful.

They're healing. So we can do that. I know we can do it. You can measure it. And for the Westerners who just don't believe, you just go experience it. Well, I don't believe my experience. Well, then let's just freaking measure it and prove it. And then some other people, they're saying, I don't know why, but I feel like I had a past life then, I didn't believe in those, but I had all these visions so I'm gonna go let go of that trauma. What's up with past lives and trauma? What's your take on that?

When you start to kind of comprehend the DNA strand as a memory of everything that's ever been there in the biology, this concept that we have around ancestors, ghosts, you know, spirits, all of these things, I think you can kind of imagine that as the, the energetic version of the DNA database. Right. And so if, if DNA is the memory of biology, I think the, the energetic world or these past life experiences are the database of felt realities. We don't think very well, we're not a highly intelligent species, but we feel really, really well. And I think that's why we've been left to, to, to survive here. And I think that's why we have so many advocates in this energetic space. These multidimensional spaces worked with a lot of people around the world now that are communicating on a daily basis with non human, you know, life forms. And they have lots of different names for them. And we create human stories around those which immediately kind of depolarizes it or polarizes it, disempowers it and polarizes people to like think conspiracy theory or whatever it is. But, but the fact is, this is how indigenous wisdom came. Being was not in human isolation, it was actually in human connection where suddenly in a cave, somebody had this moment of singularity and then they were surrounded by so much information. If anybody's ever done a dark retreat, it's the opposite of darkness. There's just so much light around us that's not being perceived by the eye until you take away the light spectrum that the eye was sensing. And then suddenly you realize I am a sensory machine that is sensing the entire cosmos, generations forwards, backwards, upside down. I can, I can actually sense multidimensional realities where just outside of our current experience thing, there's teeming life, other entities in these other vibrational forms that then can come and communicate across that dimensional reality. Because you've reached the state of super sense. And that super sense is really where the shamanic energies are trained. The Kogi are the famous ones for raising their kids from age three onwards, you know, sometimes years, sometimes decade. But those kids that are destined to be their lead shamans would be put in the dark. Yes. And be trained into whole site. And so they can see what's happening all over the world, they can see the future, they can see all these things. So they become very prophetic in a sense by just being able to use the body for what it was designed for. So the human body does not think well, but it feels wonderfully. And if we start teaching our children how to feel more fully and then encourage them not to, they don't need any encouragement. They simply don't need to be programmed with emotions. And so emotions are the conflagration of feelings. I think of emotions now a lot. The same as high fructose corn syrup, fructose in an apple, drinking fish, fantastic.

Things like love as well as hate.

Oh, yeah, yeah. These are all, all of these are reduced frequencies that then are perturbation of the original nature of it. So feeling is a complex waveform that'll go through the entire thing. And if you allow yourself to feel, you realize it's not static, it's constantly in motion and it has completely different, you know, valleys and peaks in it. And so if you really go into unconditional love for, for example, you're going to find a lot of grief because the reality is when you're in that state of witnessing beauty. And I experienced this with a rose the other day. Somebody hand me a rose like, this is the best smelling rose. Smell this, Smell it. My whole brain goes in next to saying, holy smokes. And your first instinct, at least mine, is I want to smell that again. And you go to try to smell it again, you can't because your olfactory bulb doesn't allow you to smell the same thing twice. And so the next time it's like, oh, maybe a faint version. And then you kind of give it a second, you try it a third time, and then there's nothing. It's like, how could I only smell that rose once? And the answers are somewhere around this ethereal state of the feeling of the rose is still traveling through. That initial essence of the rose that hit my nose was only the beginning of the real feeling of rose. And if I would stop attributing it all to the scent of it and I would let it travel through my body, I would find that the rose itself can detox trauma, can remove that ancestral trauma in my lungs, because it's now being allowed to be witnessed to me. And I'm witnessing the rose in me, and now I'm feeling it in my bloodstream. And so the whole feeling of rose is so far beyond the little scent that's given it or the color that it hits my eye with. And of course, when I look at a rose and say that rose is red, it's actually every other color except red. The only thing it's not is red. And it Reflects that off its surface because it's not red. And then our eye picks it up like that's red. And then our. I was just like, screw you, I'm everything but red. And so our perceptions, whether it be our scent or our eyes, are giving us such a reduced version of reality. They're all lies, they're all perturbations and maybe full out lies. Color is a full out lie. I think scent is actually. Well, don't have to take it from me, but the Kabbalah, oldest science on earth says scent is the only human sense that is correct.

More so than touch even, because I would have thought vibration and scent are the two.

Yeah, it's interesting because I don't know the entire reason for this, but I think it is interesting. Scent is the only thing that doesn't come through a neuron.

And that was a very primordial bacterial membrane way of sensing even before touch.

The olfactory bulb is the original way to feel. And it doesn't, the olfactory bulb doesn't make sense as a thing. Like we don't know how it works. It's a black box of miracles.

So we should all just have more Glade air fresheners, right? That's right.

Played for sure.

I think wearing chemical fragrances is one of the rudest things you can ever do. It's like walking around punching other people in the olfactory bowl.

True. It's true. I think that's true. But then if you take the, the emotion version of that, you realize we're programming our children to go seek love, to not fear each other, don't have any guilt, don't shame each other, don't get angry. You know, a kid doesn't understand what that is. When you yell at a three year old, like, stop being angry. Like they're like, are you even talking about. They have to be steadily trained. Like you're feeling this, and this is what we're going to call it. You're expressing this and therefore we're going to call it this. So pretty soon that kid's gone from the experience of so much pleasure in something to then the loss of that thing the next moment, which then will take them into this anger or this grief process with the five love, five emotions of anger. And then the parents yelling at them, don't be angry now, stop throwing the fist. Instead of realizing that's the long waveform of that kid having just experienced unconditional love for the first time. And in that process they had to lose it. Because everything, the scent of the rose or the face of a friend is going to disappear. I remember holding onto the leg of a table and my mother trying to drag me out from under the table because I didn't want to leave my best friend's house screaming. You know, she thought I was throwing a fit. I was experiencing unconditional love. I wanted to continue to feel what it felt like to be seen and heard and played by my friend. And that is what we are missing when we start to boil things down to an emotional framework. We're telling each other that you shouldn't be this or you should be this. And it's aborting the reality that everything in life is there for a sensory experience of itself. And everything is experiencing so much feeling. And if we then go empower kids, kids to continue to feel and stop trying to boil it down to an emotional matrix for them to mentalize. Emotions are the mental abstraction of feelings. Ultimately, yes. And just like fructose, we see the same result. Fructose in an apple is one of the most important ayurvedic tools out there. I've seen apples cure all kinds of things. Apple day, keep the doctor away, all the things. But if you stew an apple in the morning with cloves and cinnamon, as the ayurvedic and nutritionist would show you, the amount of inflammation that will reduce is insane. And the amount of coherence that you can get in cell, cell signaling and all that from the combination of that fiber and the pectin and the. And the fructose is magic. And then you add those herbs in there and spices and all the alkaloids, it's. It's just too beautiful to even think about. But that fructose is so life giving. And then you find a bunch of fructose and corn. Then you chemically flip the molecule by a chemical reaction. Now it's the mirror image. Same molecule, same same atoms, same things, but just in the mirror image. Now you have high fructose corn syrup, which doesn't occur in nature. So you can patent it. Well, super. We can take corn, which is a dollar a bushel, and then we can patent it and take this thing, we can sell it for more. That works out well. And so high fructose corn syrup, same molecule as fructose, is not recognized as a sugar in the body. And so when you eat, it's a different isomer. It's just the racemic, and so it's the mirror image. And so it's racemic of fructose. And when the Liver sees that. So if you drink a Coke, your blood sugar doesn't go up.

Yeah, because fructose doesn't raise blood sugar.

High fructose corn syrup doesn't get metabolized to the liver as a sugar at all. It gets turned into a triglyceride.

Yeah.

So you triglycerides shoot up. And so we're eating all this high fructose corn syrup. And they say that it's a calorie, but it's not. It's actually being stored as this kind of inflammatory driver of the triglyceride there. And so I'm very, very sure that emotions are the same way, because I've seen it in all of my patients now. And so it turns out in my clinic, we had this camera from Russia that was an induced energy field. So it's a big voltage across the.

Fingertips kind of thing.

Yeah.

Instead of crillian, which is a glow, and you're inducing a plasma discharge from the surface of the finger. And then you can take a video of that explosion, and it'll show you the pattern of. Of entropy or stress or. Or entropy or kind of organization in the different organ systems based on the reflexology map. So we got this very incredible map, and we imaged tens of thousands of patients over time. And what we ended up proving was nothing more than the fact that 9,000 years of Chinese medicine was right.

Right.

So all the technology we needed to just trust the human iterations of science. And what observing healing is works. And what the Chinese had done over those thousand thousands of years was to be able to pinpoint where emotions are stored in the body to cause disease. And it's very specific, unconditional. I'm sorry, unresolved grief for a loved one's death will store a very specific section of the lung. And that's where they end up getting their emphysema or their lung cancer or whatever it is years later. And so we ended up being able to image that over and over again with our patients. And we were using emotion code therapy with a super is a magnet. You identify which dominant emotion, then you bring that emotion to the surface, and you run magnets over the brain, and it just resets the programming. It's just like wiping a magnet across a disk. You erase it.

Wow.

And so you erase the memory bank of that emotion, and then the body goes back to its original unperturbed state. So we would image people, show them their emotional patterning as disease in the body, because you can see where all the entropy is perfect. Put them through emotion code therapy and then reimage them and show them that they just rebooted and then they have coherence where there was incoherence before. And so it was very amazing to realize that just like high fructose corn syrup, unable to process as a carbohydrate an emotion. Now abstraction of a complex feeling can't be moved through the body. So it has to store and create an inflammatory natus. And so emotions of the high fructose corn syrup of the feeling state of a human being. And because we do all of our stories around emotion telling, we are programming each other with trauma every time we tell a story. And we have to, I think, learn how to sing rather than tell.

Didn't you just tell me a story?

I did. And I programmed you intensely with it. And so that's why we got to stop using words and sing intensely. Because now you've got to go back and reorganize everything. And now the danger is you're going to believe everything I'm saying.

That's unlikely.

And you're good at avoiding danger. But when we believe each other's stories, we lead ourselves away from the divine. We lead ourselves out of our own truth. When we believe our own stories, that's when we are the greatest danger to ourselves. And so our own stories become the most entrenched and therefore egos. Yeah, thing. It can be ego, it can be shame, it can be any version of it. But the stories we tell ourselves are the most deflating to our own full potential.

Where did those stories come from?

Our abandonment disorder?

I believe those stories come from mitochondrial network attempts to survive. That was scary. I'm individually a dumb little bacteria. As a network of bacteria, I'm very fast, but don't understand time or context. So there was a threat to the system. I stored the threat. I recognized another similar situation in the world. So I generated a motion to make the dumb person sitting in the brain that keeps getting in the way of life to do what I want. That they're manipulating us. Shoot holes in my theory.

No, I would just say the mitochondria are. Are not. If, if mitochondria were an end of themselves, they wouldn't have bothered. They're living in other cells. The moment we distill something down to it's just this thing. And that's the thing that's doing the thing. It's the biosis that's doing the thing. It's the complex Internet of relationship of life that allow life to occur.

You can argue that you can't separate the mitochondria from the world around them.

You can't. The mitochondria dies soon as you take the gut microbiome away. So it's all interconnected.

It is all interconnected. Earlier you said something interesting. You said that when you're doing the healing work you're doing now that you bring eight people in. When 40 years of Zen has a full complement, it's eight people. Joe Dispenza, who's speaking at the biohacking conference this year, by the way, I'd love to have you speak at the conference again. He does healing work and I've done it with him. Really profound work in groups of eight. Lynn McTaggart, who's been on the show, has a book called the Power of Eight. What is with the number eight?

That's the most stable geometry in the universe. And so more than three, I thought triangles were. No, triangle actually doesn't even exist. It has to have a fourth point. So tetrahedrons exist, which is a three dimensional triangle. And that's the most stable geometry. But its stability increases then when you put two of them together. And so eight points, double tetrahedron, that's the, that's actually the, the geometry of a black hole. And so when eight points come together, they are now working in sacred geometry constellation to absorb information and light energy and then generate life. And so you become a generative engine for life. And when you put those eight together, that's at least part of the geometry below the surface there.

All of the shapes we just described. And this goes back to sacred geometry, ancient Greek stuff. Like even saying the word tetrahedron was like a capital offense at the very creation of three dimensional geometry stuff way back in ancient Greece. So if you look at that eight cells and where a zygote, just right after fertilization, the first steps of cell division, all of the Platonic forms can be drawn within those eight, that little cluster of cells between where the membranes hit. And so is that multicellular life, the very basis of all of this?

Well, yeah, I mean again, we're not bodies with souls, we're souls with bodies. And so the, the formation of those cellular relationships that, that would be in a zygote in those early divisions are inherently going to follow sacred geometry of the soul. And so I believe that each soul does have variation. That's what gives us unique identity. And so my soul quantum entangled with the egg of my mother the moment I was conceived. And at that point forward, every single Cell division after there would know exactly its core identity. I can take the cells from one identical twin and put it in another one and it'll destroy it immediately as foreign material. And so it's, it's not the cellular material, it's not the DNA, it's not the genes, it's not all of the things that we keep thinking we're bodies with souls or whatever. It's not. The identity is not in this in the cell, it's in the physics that designed the cell. And so the fact that we have identities that are outside of the genetics and energetics of a cell is very important, I think, to our life journey. It will make us stop fearing death. It's permanent. This is a permanent state of you. And that I am is not going to disappear. That I am, will always be. I am. That, I think, is where things begin, where my zing happened. That got me distracted. The bigger question was when. When you described the eight, at the beginning you said the eight cells in that zygote. And actually even when it's 256 at each of those initial cell divisions, all the cells are identical. And then suddenly this ball, it's basically a tumor. Each cell is dividing exactly like the previous. Suddenly there's, it goes from looking like a, a soccer ball to like a fist, suddenly punches the side of it and turns into a lima bean. Like it develops asymmetry, always at the exact same celebration, which is so mysterious to me. And again it's all echoed through all the shamanic stuff and the number of beads on a prayer mandala. The things like we've been screaming, our psyches have been screaming with all of this information for the beginning of time. And our modern, you know, hyper divorced science that we practice as medical world today is just beginning to glance back at the realities that all of our indigenous sciences have been preaching since the beginning of thought. It's all sacred geometry all the way through. And asymmetry is a very important process of life. Without asymmetry you can't actually propagate life. And this is actually really poignant to the moment that we're in right now. And so I don't want to go deep into, into the whole conversation because it's too long. But just as a nutshell in human biology that relies on energy, concentration of light energy to produce enough information to promulgate one of the very first things that's required is differentiation of the sexual. You and I are living out two different hypothesis for life and I love our friendship for that. It's like we actually are doing the exact opposite thing with very similar beginning premise. And so we're doing the opposite things really.

What do you think about that? Like, I've done the shamanic training, I've.

No, no. I mean our life experiences are pointing us in the same direction. So we're going to begin and we're going to end at the same place.

Gotcha.

But what's happening happen between those two points? Every human is going to begin and end in the same place. We're all going to have some version of our shamanic reawakening and we're going to find ourselves at the last breath that we're going to take. We came in alone, we're going to lead alone. But the way in which we've done those bookends just happens to be much different. And we keep coming to the same conclusions. Yep. And I love that about it. It says like, you've got a path that you're going down, I've got a path. And we keep looking back at each other. It's like, are you seeing that? Yeah, I'm seeing that. All right, let's keep going. You know, and without the triangulation, I would start to doubt what I'm seeing. And so I need the other perspective. And I really appreciate the way that you're very clear on your path and you've been taking a lot of people with you on that. And you know, millions of people have seen truth in what you're doing and are, are pursuing that and they've applied it to their own lives and they found their own truths and they're you. So you've got got this incredible experiment going on with millions of people involved. I would say I'm way less successful at getting the story out, but I've got a small cohort of people that are going another direction and we keep looking back at each other and we do keep coming to the same conclusion.

I don't know that we're going opposite directions at all. I'm perceiving it a little differently.

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That's T-R-Y-A-R-M-R-A.com code Dave. Most of the last 25 years I've had. I started out with a kind of a mechanistic, atheistic computer science view of reality, just based on childhood and all that.

Yeah, about.

Oh, 20, yeah, about 25 years ago. Had some experiences with breath work and all. I'm like, oh, the world's a little more complex than I thought, so I'm going to figure that out. And so while I figured all the biological systems and things like that that, you know, my first book was on fertility. And, you know, life begins in the soil to the extent that I'm building regenerative farms with special soil additives. Like, there's a lot of commonality there. I came to the conclusion that I'm simultaneously rational and mystical and that they don't have to conflict with each other at all. And you can just accept that something is both true if you put on this lens, and it's false if you put on this other lens. So I can accept two different stories for the same thing. And I've traveled around the world, and I've been to the holiest mountain in the world, and I've studied with the greatest masters. I've had shamanic initiation, multiple lineages. I just talk about it a lot less because to make biohacking happen in the world, if I bring that up in the first year, dude, I brought up earthing and light therapy 15 years ago and breath work, and that was enough. Right. And I've been adding sort of unveiling over the years. And if you have a chance to read or listen to heavily meditated, I think it'll make sense, because the core of what I've done over the last 11 or so years is relentless practice of forgiveness to. To decharge the emotions that we just talked about. Right. So that's at the core of what I do.

Absolutely. And we're gonna land in the same place. I guarantee you.

We're in the land. Commonalities here.

No, no. And there. There can't be much difference because we're both having a human experience, right. So we're in this little plane of eight feet of reality that we're expressing ourselves in. But I guess where we differ is in quite a number of places. First thing, I walked in your house. You took me to your supplement room. I mean, I've just never seen anything like it. It's more supplement bottles than I've ever seen in my life. And so. And you said, well, I take. I only take this. This section here. You had your arm spread. I'm like, that's like 150 bottles there or something like that. And I asked you if you were hungry. You're like, no, I'm not hungry much anymore. And so you're eating enough, you know, capsules there, stem cells. They've done them.

Oh, many more than anybody else.

That's what I thought I. I would put you in the peptides.

Totally.

Yeah. Peptides, stem cells. Supplements to beat the band. What other cool technologies you're doing here in the House you got all these devices around and most of them I don't even recognize.

All of them doing all of the technology. All of them, my mitochondria, like yeah.

The path that I'm taking. There's only one supplement in my house. It's a liquid extract from fossil soil. And there's no technologies in my house. There's no biohacking devices. I've never had stem cells in my body, nor will I ever because I'm a little bit concerned about the quantum entanglement of trying to put somebody else's cells that were imprinted with their identity into me. I think there's a reaction that's inevitable there. I think we have a lot of data in our own colleagues. One of our good friends has been long in hospital now, last few months after or severe injury. More than one of them, the stem cells. And so we tend to put these things out there as a promise and we then make lots of money off of them. And when we find out that they're hurting people, including our own colleagues that are selling the very products that just put it in the hospital.

Bacterial infection though, not a stem cell.

That from the stem cells? Yeah.

Well it's from the injection. I don't think they're in the cells or you think it was in the cells?

Well, I mean it was in the cell preparation. I mean it was literally the technology which gets the stem cells out of an embryo. All this stuff is where killed him, nearly killed him. You know, so it's like. But that doesn't get mentioned out in the public. We don't, you know, we don't want to talk about it because it's uncomfortable and it's sad because our friend is really suffering and. And yet there's a real danger that we don't tell the public. Like we're kind of playing with fire here and, and we don't know what we're doing. We're trying and we need to have a lot of grace towards one another because it's like, you know, this is a pretty complex system that we're diving into. It's called life is called quadrillions of cells that we don't even know what they all do. We know nothing. And now we're trying to put all these technologies at play. And so I'm trying the non tech version and I'm trying the super tech version which you're now going full into the shamanic stuff and everything else. I'm baby in that stuff. You've been doing a lot longer than Me, it sounds like, but I'm, I have from an early standpoint, started to recognize that if I try to micromanage anything of the divine, I fall short of my potential. The more I turn over to the miracle within me, the more things generate in ways in which no technology will ever discover. And so I'm in a constant surrender experiment. And you, and there's absolutely no judgment on this, I'm just recognizing that you and all of the colleagues in the biohacking world are each taking another glance back at the nature of that builds possibility of life to happen. And like we said, the technologies can be hugely important, revelatory things of like, ah, that was the nature deficit that set up that condition.

Sure.

And so I'm actually filming a TV series right now where we do exactly that. We go around the world, we look through single aspects of nature and the indigenous wisdom that sits with that nature at 12 of the diseases of the west to realize everything's nature deficit disorder. And here we can actually see through technology of indigenous science or you know, modern biohacking, we can see where we went wrong, where, where we disconnected and then we can track the consequences at the population level back to the chronic disease epidemic we have today. So I've never done stem cells, I've never done peptides, I've never done a probiotic, I've never smoked a cigarette. So I'm in a kind of a zone of curiosity of like, what would happen if I just went in life like a three year old every day. What? Because when I was three, when I was five, I couldn't have given us rats out about anybody's stories about mitochondria. I was just so excited to build the next fort. And so I was up in trees and I was out in mud puddles and I was down in gullies looking for stuff. And my buddies and I were always building stuff. All the way into my 20s we were building cars and garages and I just had this overwhelming drive for curiosity of what else could come through, what could even become more fun. And so I don't, I don't know if I'll live long. And I'm not terribly concerned about that because I have lived so much life in this lifespan and my lifespan has been so full of beauty. I have felt so much in this lifetime. I have felt so much massive heartbreak, I just can't even measure it. And in finding the heartbreak, I've found out how much I love things. And for the amount of grief I have probably process through my lungs I know that I have really, truly experienced unconditional love to be able to grieve the loss of the things that I have found beautiful in this world. This is a very magical time we're in. And so every time I try to reach for a technology because Lord knows a lot of them came into my clinic over time, every time I tried to apply one, I found myself distracted from that feeling inside of me that happens when I recognize the miracle. And if I just stay connected to the miraculous nature, then I stop worrying about how long I'm going to live and I start really, really experiencing being alive. And that, that feels really good inside of me. And so I'm actually super enjoying my elder years here. My kids have grown up and I've gotten to see my grandson through my son's marriage growing up. And he just started college, he's going to medicine. Like I can't even believe this being. Like he's just, just so spectacular. And every day he's showing me because his generation is, is, is not, didn't have enough energy to polarize.

Yeah.

And so we stopped gendering in the womb some time ago. And it's becoming more in evident, evident with these recent generations. But it's been decades since we had enough energy in the embryonic process to go from neutral to male, female. And so you have a phenotype that looks male, but, but the fact is that the energy that was there to pulse the testosterone, to pulse the estrogen at the right time didn't fully form the nuclear differentiation that was going to say, you know what, I'm not both, I'm one or the other. Takes a lot of energy to polarize. And that's why everything repeats for those first 256 cell divisions. And then suddenly there's enough intelligence, there's enough concentrated energy to differentiate. And so every stage of differentiation of an organism attack takes an enormous another jump in energy. And right now we are as a species no longer able to gender in the womb at the same divisional kind of polarization that we have over the eons. And so for that we're losing gender. It's not a social movement, it's nothing. We can have all kinds of recognition that storytelling can be difficult on people's minds and all this. But the fact is we are biologically expressing exactly what's going on in the womb due to a failure of mitochondrial metabolism in the womb. And so we're at this non gendering state. And what that generation is showing me is that we probably needed that journey to Find out how much we could love. And so my kids generation, they did the LGBTQ thing that my generation had made and watched my daughter and her whole performing arts group in New York go through that whole journey in spades. And so they lived into that. And then just in the last five years, I've seen them letting go of the Alphabet suit and doing what my grandson's generation is doing, which is, I am. You are. I am too. You are. I am. I love you. They're connecting on levels that we haven't seen before. And then we created a pandemic that broke their relationships. That generation was about to cause a revolution at such a grand scale. And if they hadn't been broken up, I think we would already be done with the revolution, because I watched my grandson graduate high school last year, last fall, and they did the typical weird thing I don't do. You know where graduation ceremonies come from? That's a weird. It's awesome. It's a cult.

Robes and weird hats.

This freaked me out. I forgot how weird it was.

Yeah.

And anyway, they're marching around the field in their weird caps and gowns, and all the professors or the teachers were walking first. And then in the last 50 meters, they kind of lined up on both sides of the track and all the kids came through and they're clapping the kids through and 428 kids coming through, and my grandson was one of the last to come through, and when he hit that line, there was five teachers that just couldn't help themselves, and they broke ranks and went and hugged that kid. Oh, that. That's what this generation is going to show us, is that when we lose the polarity and we start to come to neutral, we're going to realize that we're all the same freaking thing. And we all rely on each other, and without polarity, we're not going to survive. And so we need to start to re. Embrace the polarity of differences. And so I enjoy the clarity of differences between us because without those differences, we wouldn't even have a conversation. It would be boring to have me here.

It's totally true. One of the frameworks that my girlfriend Christina taught me, and we were doing heavy duty relationship coaching, and when you do, like, neurotyping of the way people see the world, about half of people will seek commonality. Like, oh, what do we have in common? And half the world will seek differences. And it doesn't cross with age or gender or race or anything. It's kind of randomly distributed. And so if you're someone who seeks commonality. Say you're like, I have a. Whatever, I have a Ferrari. I'd be like, oh, me too. And you'd be like, bastard, you're trying to one up me. If you're a different seeker, and if you're a commonality seeker, you'd be like.

That'S cool, we both have Ferraris.

Let's go driving. And so if you're different seeking, you'd say, I have a Ferrari. And I'd say, well, I have a Porsche. And then you'd be like, oh, cool, we're different. Let's go driving. Right?

Yeah.

And so to me, that's one of those lenses on reality where I recognize that I'm always commonality seeking and that half the world will think that that's negative and half will think it's cool. And so that because I know that about myself, I'm also like, okay, I love the differences because that's where all the learning comes from.

Exactly.

Like, what do you know that I don't? Right. And so just understanding. I have these lenses and some of them I'm not aware of and growing awareness of my own biases. That may be genetic. They may be early childhood, they may be spiritual. I don't know where the hell they come from. So I'm like, how many different lenses can I install? How many different apps on the phone in my brain can I install that let me perceive things that I wouldn't otherwise know? And like, that's kind of the basis of how I'm trying to figure out the world. So I would forecast based on that that you are a differences seeker and that I'm a commonality seeker. Does that seem like a.

That's spot on. Yeah, that's definitely how I've lived my life. For sure. Yeah.

Got it. So I can piss you off by saying, me too.

Family. Yeah, I think.

And.

And that's the beauty of it is the more we look into the differences, the more we find the commonalities.

They're polarities. I mean, difference in commonality is a polarity. Right.

I mean, honestly, you will not find a difference that doesn't point to the commonality. And again, that's why I really enjoy sitting with you is it's fun. We are coming to the same conclusion over and over again. And if we weren't looking through different lenses, then we wouldn't see the whole beauty of at all. And I really admire the way that you've ignited individuals who by my field would have been told they weren't empowered to know any of this stuff. You've shown us that a computer programmer can come along and really master a set of data that's relevant to their own body, and then start to use your own body as your own laboratory. And so I would just encourage everybody who's out there. Biohacking is move beyond the data as much as you can and feel into the entire experience of being human. And then understand the data in the context of your feeling body. And you'll see a different beauty. You'll see a different beauty.

One of the secret goals of biohacking is to get the data to validate the ancient practices so that people who are in their heads can say, oh, there's data to support that. I should do a shamanic initiation or I should do a breath work or forgiveness or any of the altered states. That's why I finally wrote a book about altered states. Because, like, okay, there's so much evidence. The ancient Chinese acupuncture system, you're like, oh, yeah, we have our camera that does that and we can measure it electrically. So if we go back 20 years in our lives, if you talked about meditation or acupuncture, you were an idiot and you would be shamed and kicked out of med school and ostracized. And now, no, we have the data. So you can't. You can't use that power of using the brain to shut down the spirit.

I would say the world is not changing for the data, though. I've actually seen. No, I've testified in front of the EPA over and over again on glyphosate. I have seen absolutely no effect of the lab science.

Oh, that's the government. They're not the worst.

Well, no, it's human. Yeah, they're humans.

You haven't seen any change. Awareness of glyphosate damages, it's increasing.

I just sat with six senators who run the whole Senate Ag Committee and all this, and three, them didn't even know what glyphosate was. And so, you know, they've put out a trillion dollars of tax putting.

Did you offer them glasses of it?

That's what I just drink this. So it's. The fact is, you don't change minds through science, but you change science. You change the world through the feeling again. So we started storytelling instead of the science about six years ago, and the traction was huge. And suddenly we made it relevant to every single household. So no longer did you have to be a scientist for me to tell you exactly what you G proteins were being disrupted by glyphosate. I could tell you a story of what it felt like when a farmer stopped spraying it. And when their family came back to the farm and they 3x their bottom line and they got reconnected their communities. Now they had a farmer's market on there. And now all the farmers like, let's do that. And you don't talk about glyphosate at all. You talk about what is the human experience of plugging back in nature. And then you create the revolution. And so this is how the data is real. And for some of us, it's enough. As a scientist, I get fascinated by it and will take me down a path.

Path.

And then I will realize, oh, the data was pointing to me something more marvelous than I could have imagined. You know. And so I would encourage everybody, you know, check your own addiction to the data, because I can guarantee you I spent 30 years of addiction to data. And I. That's. Everybody here is triple board certified. And some people think that's a quack. But the fact is, that was because I was afraid. I did all of that because I was afraid I didn't know enough yet. And I was afraid to be sitting in ICUs with patients who were dying and with the possibility that I didn't know enough to throw absolutely all the best opportunities at them. And so I was terrified of not enough data. And so triple board certified means that's probably the most frightened doctor you've ever met. And I found my way out of fear when I realized that the information wasn't in the data that I was looking for.

Wow.

That's been my gift.

So profound. I start with an inner knowingness, and I find the data that validates it. And I've been using that as a way to unlock resistance so people will look for the inner feelings. The great. The vast majority of. I didn't create the idea of putting butter and MCT in coffee. I intuited that. And then I found the data that supported it and talked about it. So there's.

The beds have been doing it for 9,000 years.

They're the ones who gave me the idea on butter, the MCT and all that. And, you know, so certainly the buttons inspired me. And it was Mount Kailash where I had this idea for it because I drank their yak butter tea. Right. So the. The idea, though, is. So I felt that. And then there were some upgrades, but we didn't have the science and the data, other than try it and you'll feel better. And so there are so many people who are stuck in their heads and data serves as a key to give them permission to look down. Right. They're like, oh, what's going on in the body? But there's so much programmed resistance. Well, if there's not science or data behind it, then I can't look. I'm like, there's enough to look. And that's one of my major motivations for biohacking. My internal process is not data first, it's intuition first and felt sense first, and then questioning for the data and then presenting the data to help people look deeper and to give them. Well, now you have permission from your own head to do the thing that you would have never considered.

So does computer hacking increase or decrease community?

Oh, it's massively, massively community based. I just had one of the, the top hackers in the world on the show. Who, Who? God. It was funny. We had dinner afterwards and it was, it's a tight knit community of people who see the world through systems and they are constantly in contact with each other. And it has its own culture and its own language. In fact, when I signed his book, I wrote a very old hacker code from my days in hacking and he just laughed. I was like, oh my God, that's awesome. So the community is there. And just like if you were to go to a healing conference, people doing energy healing, there's community there. Like there's. So there's just a sub community, I think.

Yeah, it's a sub community, yeah. And does the hacking itself create community? When you hack the common paradigm, does it plug you back into that community or does it polarize you against that community?

I think it creates community. That's been my experience with biohacking.

So when the government's computers get hacked, it increases relationship to the government, the.

People who did the hacking. It doesn't. It also depends. There's two kinds of, of hackers out there. There's what we call polarity. Black hat and white hat. White hats are explorers and they're figuring how stuff works. And black hats are like, how do I steal money and cause chaos? It's the same thing. If any system on earth, there's people trying to break and people are trying to make it better.

No.

Right. It depends which, which one you are. Right.

I'm just wondering if what would happen if we tried bioweaving instead of biohacking?

What is bio weaving?

I mean, just thinking of that computer hacker getting into the bank code or the government code, it's breaking your Relationship as soon as you hack something.

No, hackers are the ones who upgrade the world. The first hackers would take their cars in 1929 and say, I'm going to make it better than stock. They were doing it so they could run moonshine, Right. And then after that, it was a conjure is how do things work so we can improve them. That's the original meaning of hacking.

So what year was that?

That was. When was Prohibition?

1920S.

Yeah, 29 or something.

All right, so would you say that the technology of computer hacking has improved our connection to nature or decreased our connection to nature over the last 100 years?

The first technology that we developed was probably clothing and fire.

Separate ourselves from nature with the clothing.

Okay. I mean, so all technologies. So the first. I mean, if you want to go that way, the first users of technology were weavers or people who cut skins and sewed them. Right. So you could say all technology does that. However, we are part of nature. Everything we make is part of nature.

I agree with that strongly. It's not how we define nature, though. If you look up the Oxford English Dictionary, it says that nature is everything in the firmament of the earth, including minerals, plants, animals, as opposed to humans or anything humans have made.

Sounds like whoever wrote that definition needs an update.

It sounds like that's human species has seen itself in opposition to nature.

Part of nature. You can't separate us from nature.

That seems pretty obvious. So why did we define it that way? And so the colonial mind that's so represented by the English language, is this the colonialism of. And all of its tragedies that it's produced is because we thought we were separate from nature and at a deep level. And so we could develop technologies and sociopolitical systems that further divided us, further disconnected us from nature. And so I'm just wondering about this bioweaving thing, because when we hear that there's something to hack, we feel like it's against us as a possibility.

Wow. Yeah. Like the hackers where I'm from, they.

See the government computer system as part of their health.

Well, there's two flavors. There's a kind of hacker who might log into the government computer system and change some data to make the world a better place. Right. Oh, look, you know, everyone's tax return just got tripled. Right. And if the person who does that is doing that because they believe that they're making the world a better place, they're going to stop an injustice, okay. And someone else, they're going to log in and Hack it because they want to create chaos or they want to steal people's identity. It's all about the motivation and all about whether you were correct in your action with the motivation.

Well, it sounds like the outcomes would be both the same. In both cases. It would be a disaster for the entire economy if you tripled everybody's tax return. And it would be a disaster if you can go the other direction and steal stuff as well.

So I'm not convinced of that. The government seems like it can just print as much money as it wants and give it to other countries. So they could just do some of that for their own citizens as well. And that might be a better thing.

Thing. Well, that worked up until they did that and then the US dollar stopped being the reserve currency for the world. And there was, there was an immediate problem, there was a balancing act there. But I guess I'm just encouraging all of us just maybe take a step back and wonder, do we really want to hack biology or do we want to start to see biology as our path forward? And then is there something to hack there or is there something to follow there?

Do you know the definition of biohacking?

I want to hear it.

It's the art and science of changing the environment around you and inside of you. So you have control of your biology. You could also say, so you have control of your state. It's how do you make the environment stronger and better, which makes you stronger and better.

I guess the only part that we differ on is the control of your state.

I'm looking to be in a state of kindness and a state of non reactivity so I can choose my state, so I can show up in a way that is best for the world around me. And so to be chaotic for me is not a goal.

So the data that you're getting from all of the biohacking is taking you towards kindness.

Absolutely. In fact, I believe we're wired inside our mitochondria to be kind to our community. Just that we allocate our energy first to fear, then to hunger, then to reproduction. And if we have any energy left because the system was strong enough, it goes into friend, into community. And it's an energy allocation problem fundamentally in that we are wired to give to our community and our community becomes a source of nourishment. And if there's any energy left after that, we put it into evolution and like that. That's a mitochondrial operating system imperatives. And the upgrade that I'm working to install societally is let's allocate a little bit less energy to fear so we can have more attention to what we're eating and putting in our body and where it comes from.

But isn't this pursuit of longevity the fear of death?

Death, it can be if. If you're into anti aging or not dying. There's actually two different groups. And I've been in the longevity field for 25 years. Some groups are terrified of death. They're going to freeze their bodies. They're like, I. Death is horrifying. There's another group of which I'm a member, which is like, I'd like to die at a time and by a method of my choice. I have no fear of death whatsoever.

Like, I'm.

I'm totally, totally down for it when my time is there. No fear, no fighting full integration. And I don't really like pain. Nobody does, but I'll accept it. And so wanting to have the most energy possible and the most positive impact and to enjoy every curiosity there is on the planet and maybe make it even better, that is also in the longevity field. And the flip side of that polarity is, oh my God, I'm going to die. I can't die. That energetic is not. It's repellent to me. Actually, I don't. I don't resonate with it at all. Because then you're just inferior all the time. Right. It also depends on whether you've done the work that I suspect you've done. Where, like, in fact, you already said it. You know, death is really not the end. It's just a state change.

So you've stated a lot on your social media that you're. I think it was 180 years or something like that. What's that?

My goal is to live come from is, oh, it's 50% better than our current best.

That's it. Was it 50% better?

Oh, that was just. Because when I came out with that in 2016, I'm like, I spent $2 million on reversing my age and fixing a lot of health problems. An enormous number. And I didn't think that I could get on the news if I said I was going to live for hundreds of years. I'm not sure I want to. Right. The longest recorded is Methuselah. 969 years seems like an awful lot. But if I want to live that long when I'm 960, then damn it, I will. And if I decide, you know what, like, it's time to move on, there's time to move on right. And it's like when there's. There's no more experiences that I want to have or there's no more interesting things to understand or to improve, then I'm done. And that's okay. Right. And, you know, I think a lot of people listening may just be like these totally nuts, but it's not about running away from death. And I think running away from something or fighting something just makes it stronger.

I agree with that very strongly. I agree that very long. And I think that's important for everybody in the longevity because I'm not sure everybody's aware that that's your perspective. And I think it's super important. Reframing. We cannot be afraid of death. And the moment we do, we short important life. And so we've got to begin to really embrace elderhood as well. I think is another piece of this is trying to preserve our youth at the cost of wisdom is scary. And I. I fear that I. I've done that in my life. I think we are all capable of doing that where we shy away or we look in the mirror and be like, oh, I got wrinkles, or I got the thing, you know, I'm always frustrated with my vision these days. Can't see, stretch my arms. Now, was I supposed to see all the details for my whole life, or was my eyes supposed to fade enough so I'd stop relying so much on that ridiculous lie that everything I see around me is real and start to feel something more real so that I would tell my children and grandchildren before they were eight, don't believe everything you see. Feel what you your reality is telling you. Feel deeper. And that elder wisdom that comes out of my fading vision is probably something I could really embrace. And I might become more childlike in my journey if instead of trying to correct my vision, I start to embrace the vision change. And instead of trying to reduce the wrinkles and start to really remember what it looked like to look into my great grandmother's face before she died at 102, she was beautiful. I mean, unbelievably radiant. She shone so much light into this world at 102. And so then I'm like, what part of that am I trying not to live into? It was her wrinkles at the corners of her eyes from her smiling a hundred years that made her just the most beautiful being you've ever seen. And so what beauty am I running away from if I put a definition on it, like wrinkles? And so I think there's an opportunity for us to just make sure we're checking in with each other. Of, like, what are we loving about each other? What. Where's the beauty in one another? Is it your fasting glucose, or is the fact that you're able to create unconditional love when you see beauty? Is it the fact that you've got a telomere length? Or is it the fact that. That yesterday you came to the possibility that you could actually forgive your mother, no matter what condition she was in? And. And our conversations might change a lot if we start to go into the resonance of this is. The only thing that's important about being alive is we can feel things. Devolving that feeling sensation down to a series of data that we create abstract constructs around that would then fuel our fear or avoidance of something that's inherent. It's inevitable is what humans all do. So I'm not saying this is unique to biohacking. All this is what we're all doing all of the time. We look at a social media feed and how many followers? How many things? So we are so quick to reduce the miracle of life down to a data set and then start validating the data set instead of the miracle.

We're not just feeling things, we're radiating things. We have an epidemic of edd, Elder deficiency Disorder, because our people, as they age, are losing energy. They're getting Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, and they're too tired and too mitochondrially broken to function as the elders with the wisdom that they're supposed to. And part of the reason that longevity is such a big part of biohacking is I want a bunch of vibrantly healthy people who are twice my age to tell me all this stupid shit not to do. And I'm so blessed that I learned all this stuff in my 20s from people in their 70s and 80s who were doing the longevity movement in the 90s. And they took me under the wing and they mentored me, and I wouldn't be here today without them. So we got to have our elders back at their full power as elders. And that's a mitochondrial problem, it's an environmental problem, and that's a part of the mission.

Beautiful. I love that. Well, I'm excited to hear that part of the mission, and that part will serve us well.

I'm sure it will. Zach, you're a profound guy, and I'm so happy you're back on the show. And it's been too long since you were on for the first time and your website for listeners. ZachBushMD.com and you were kind enough to give everybody a gift. Use code DAVE10 to try the supplement that he makes called Ion Gut Support. Zach, you're doing cool stuff at all sorts of levels. So happy you came into the studio and let's hang out some more. More.

It's awesome. Next time we'll talk about Africa.

Amen. See you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast.

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