Control Your Mindset with 4 Questions – Legacy Upgrade ft. Byron Katie : 965

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey, formerly Bulletproof Radio, A State of High Performance. I've reached into the thousand legacy episodes of the podcast to bring you this incredible conversation because it's changed so many lives. You're going to get a lot of value from the ideas in this episode and if you're hearing it for the second time, you're going to get more than you did the first time. And frankly, a lot of people don't hear it every episode. This is one of the greats. If you like the show, I'd like your advice. Go to daveasprey.com podcasts and let me know what's working. And I'm sending a quick note of gratitude to you for being a Human Upgrade listener. Thanks for spending your time and your energy here with me, expanding your knowledge, exploring your performance and figuring out what you're actually capable of. I think we're all nicer when we do that. Stay connected with the podcast and with me on Instagram or Facebook. The handle is heumanupgradepodcast. Thank you. Today's guest is a very well known author and personal development world leader. Her name is Byron Katie. You might have heard of her book called Loving what Is. She's an inspirational guide who offers people a different way to think their thoughts, to change mindsets and their lives. And in 1986, at the bottom of a 10 year spiral into depression and rage and as she describes it, self loathing. When she was 43 years old, Byron woke up to a state of constant joy that never left her. And what she realized and what she teaches to this day is that when she believed her stressful thoughts, she suffered. And when she questioned them, she didn't suffer. And that that is true for every human being. And she named her process of inquiry the Work. And she's been bringing the work to millions of people around the world for the last 30 years in public events, workshops, intensive retreats, and something called the Turnaround House. I wanted to have her on the show today because on my own path of being a biohacker. And after I dealt with some of my biological things to lose 100 pounds, I realized I had to deal with some of the stuff going on in my head. And I learned early on that my powers of self deception are legion. And I've become aware of Byron's work. I've read her books and I've learned you don't believe the thoughts in your head, you always question them. And when you build that into your life, you Perform better as a human being in almost everything you do. And now we get to talk to the woman who created this, which is a great pleasure. Byron, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Dave. So good to be here.

Now, Byron, I want to understand, when you talk about a 10 year spiral of rage and depression and all these things that happened a while back for you, what got you to that state?

I was believing my thoughts. That's the first version. And, and it, the self loathing, the anger, it was all an effect of the things I would say and do. So guilt really is the culprit here. And when that is running, I'll say as that was running in my head, I had no way out. So it really was a downward spiral. And so, you know, the thoughts like, I'm not good enough, there's something wrong with me. Which was true, it was my thinking, but there. But my, my thoughts were aimed out at other people. It was their fault. And then when I would say or do something, I would experience the guilt. So I had this vicious circle going of judgment, guilt, judgment, guilt. And it was debilitating agoraphobia. You know, I experienced that. I couldn't even, you know, most of the time unable to leave my bedroom toward the end of that, very painful. And I just, you know, Dave, what I do with my life is. I don't, I don't whatever I can to make sure that not one person has to suffer at that level or really any level. It's because there is a way out. If there were no way out, you know, I get it, but for a lot of us, there is no way out. We just don't understand how the mind works. And then in that moment as I lay sleeping on the floor, just fast asleep and, and I opened my eyes and I saw how the mind worked. And oh boy, oh boy, it was, it was so radical that, you know, I was in the same body. But the, the shift was so radical that my children and husband wondered, you know, who am, who am I? And it was the shift, it was from a very confused, lost human being to, to my favorite, a kinder human being.

A lot of the people who've had the biggest change in their own lives and in the world have gone through an experience where they hit rock bottom or they almost died, or some of them actually did die in a hospital somewhere and came back from that. Some of the people who, especially in the fields of personal development, but even just in medicine, saying, I realized I had to do what mattered because things were just so crappy in My own life, hitting 300 pounds and having many of the symptoms of being very old when I was in my 20s, arthritis and brain fog. And so enough is enough, and I set out to consciously fix it. But I didn't have an experience where I woke up one morning and I had that level of clarity. I had lots of times where inspiration would happen or I would see. Well, I missed that. But it seems like you just went to sleep and you woke up with this massive knowledge. Where did it come from?

Well, I just saw how the mind worked. But it's not as easy as it sounded. There was still this ego to deal with, this personality to deal with. So it was like there were two of me. There was this wisdom and understanding the cause of suffering. And I literally designed what I call a judge and neighbor worksheet. I literally would sit and identify the thoughts that were running through my head, the crazy thoughts. And I. It's like I was unaffected by them. I saw they were crazy, but out of respect for the ego, I identified them. I put them on paper and we begin to make love. Seriously, the mind making love with itself. For example, if my mind would say there is, you know, something terrible is going to happen, I would write it down and I would just sit the mind with the mind, just sit it down. Is it true something terrible is going to happen? Can you absolutely know that it's true, something's going to. Terrible is going to happen. And then to notice how I reacted, what happened when I believed the thought. And that's where people's blood pressure goes up. That's where the heart begins to race. That's where the physical stress and wear and tear in our bodies from emotion, from the emotional, like that began to happen. And how do I react when I believe the thought? I see images of, of all these images of something terrible is going to happen. And, and they're false images. They're images of a false future. They are not images of now. It's fake. It's like fake, fake news. And, and then images of the past when everything was wonderful. Images of the future when it's falling apart. And so when we're, when we're experiencing those motions, those emotions, we're coming from that movie that is the cause of all suffering. When we believe our thoughts, they're not strong without the movie. So you have this movie. The thoughts are the soundtrack. We believe onto it. And then the fourth question, fourth simple question. Who would I be without this? Who would I be without this past, future, just now. And, and then here's the world. And that's how you get in touch with nature, your true nature. And out of that comes in. Our choices radically shift because we're sane and there's no mind there to argue or talk us out of what we know is right in our life. What does, you know? It's, it's a, it's. I just, you know, was just that simple for me. And then something terrible is going to happen. Something wonderful is going to happen. Well, it just did. I'm present. I'm out of the dream. I'm present. Nothing more wonderful than that.

I had an experience once years ago and I've done a lot of my personal development work with neurofeedback where I have a computer sort of helping me know when I'm playing a voice or playing a story in my head that isn't accurate and all. And I was, I was doing some self inquiry and the little movie that you're describing in your head, I was, I was pushing on, sort of asking for what I wanted. Like we needed to move into a bigger house. And I'd had some resistance and just in my family from that for whatever reason, uh, and I, I was frustrated by it. But instead of admitting the frustration or at least admitting to myself how frustrated I was, I was kind of watching the video in my head with electrodes and my consciousness presented an image of me pouring gas on myself and lighting myself on fire. Uh, and this was how. And so this is something I would never do. I've never been suicidal. I've never thought of something like that. And, and that was just so absurd because I had this developed the ability that you're describing to sort of watch it and look at what's going on. And I started laughing and like, seriously, like this is clearly not me what's going on in here. And it was that ability at that moment to switch into an awareness of what's really going on. I realized, okay, there's totally some irrational fear going on here. And being able to see that for what it was as something that would never happen. But it was my body working to, to distract me from doing something that it firmly believed was dangerous to do. Not pour gas on myself, but to actually say, look, we're moving into a bigger house already because I need the space so I can do the bulletproof stuff and because kids will be happier. And all the reasons I wanted to do it. But to just be insistent on something that was a requirement for whatever reason. I don't know why. There were parts of me that were uncomfortable with that. And I got through it. Which when I read your books, that feels like one of those experiences where you talk about becoming aware of the, the video in your head.

Yeah. False, False self. You know, it's, there's, you know, the, the, the images. It is. It's like if we wonder what we had for breakfast this morning, if we look back on that, that you can see yourself at breakfast. That's. That's. That's self. You at breakfast. And you see yourself at dinner tonight. That's. That's yourself. That's you at dinner tonight. And it shows up that vividly in, in. In your mind's eye. And we don't even realize it's going on. And until we begin to wake up to the mind and you know what's real and what's not. But you see this. You at breakfast, you at dinner, and then here I am sitting here now. So I just, you know, it's just clear, what self am I? You know, this is the answer to who. Who am I? Not that, not that. Not that of the past, not that of the future, present. And it's. Everything we need to do can only be done now. And in a sane state of mind, we're really, we're really unlimited. Or I can say that I experienced that in my life.

How does your work, or the work, as it's called, apply to people who are maybe engineers, people who are successful in their careers and saying, maybe I want a little bit more. Do you find that it works for them, that it's attractive for them?

Absolutely.

Or is it too out there?

Absolutely. If you're an engineer and you love what you do, then question anything that would slow you down, stop you, anything that would prevent you, like, like you from buying a larger house. It was nothing more than, than what you were thinking and believing. And it could come out the other way, but you're, you're going to come out sane and right with yourself. You know, not to buy the house until another time. It was time and we're good with it. And you know, we do things that we, that we don't want to do, but there's no situation we can't make peace with because now is when we need the peace. Now is where this matters.

If you were to describe what you do to someone who's never come across your work. How do you describe it? In a couple sentences? Is there a way to do that?

Clear the mind?

If you were to describe what you do to someone who's never come across your Work. How do you describe it in a couple sentences? Is there a way to do that?

Clear the mind.

Got it. That is the shortest description of what someone does. Three words that I've ever seen. But that's actually a very powerful description.

You know, if I don't love what I think, I don't love what I see.

Yeah.

Because life is what we believe it to be. So I look out and what I believe onto the world. Like we put all these post its on what we see and if we believe it, you know, if, if those aren't, you know, if those thoughts aren't, aren't, if they're not, I'll say it this way. A match to the heart or our true nature. I don't like what, what I'm believing. I'm not going to like what I'm seeing. So the way to love the world is to for me was to question anything unlike that emotion. And for me love is center.

I think you've landed on something powerful there. If you go through the four questions that are in your books in the process of clearing your mind. What clearing my mind did for me is it frees up a huge amount of energy to do stuff that matters. Because if I'm putting the electrons that my body makes from food and air to work on judgmental thoughts, negative thoughts playing stories that aren't true in my head, all the energy that went there didn't go to somewhere useful. And then I had to apply even more energy to then counteract and deal with the negative thoughts that I wasted the energy on. So by building a process in every day, in my case it's based on gratitude and forgiveness and driving awareness. It's allowed me to do way more in my career and as a parent and all the different things I do. And that's why even for people who are hyper logical in engineering mindset or someone who doesn't have a particular strong spiritual direction in what they do, the work that you describe in your books, it's useful simply because it removes drag on your life. And everyone has drag, right?

Absolutely, absolutely useful in our lives. If I'm an engineer, say why can't I love my mind at the same time? Because when we, when, when our mind, when we're saying our decisions again, our decisions are, they're simple, they're easy, we don't even have to think them through. They're, they're just naturally logical. The food we eat, the choices we eat, the, the, you know, I love like, like last night I'm wearing, I fell And I'm wearing this, this heavy cast on, on my left foot and leg and, and I went to bed last night as energized as I wake up. And because my energy isn't going to a make believe world, it's, it's present and, and you know, what a, what a radical life when I compare it to, to the unquestioned mind.

There are a lot of spiritual traditions that talk in different words about the things you're talking about. They talk about building awareness, building consciousness, being able to see reality. I'm talking about Hindu traditions, Buddhist traditions, ancient Christian traditions, traditions, and it seems like there's many different traditions that are all circling around this ability to see what's actually in the world around you without lots of filters that you don't have control of. Can you walk me through the four questions that you teach people in your books to do in order to quickly get that level of clarity about a situation or just about their life? Like what are the questions?

Well, the first question is, the first thing is to identify the thoughts that are causing the stress in your life or in your moment and to write them down and then take a thought or a judgment that you're holding on someone. And then this work is meditation. So we're just going to meditate on is it true what I'm thinking and believing about that person, Is it true? And I'm going to meditate there and I'm going to hold an image of that situation with that person in my mind's eye. Maybe he said, I don't like you. So he doesn't like me. Is it true? So I'm in that situation. Let's say it was something that happened yesterday. And in my mind's eye I can see the two of us there. He said it, he said he didn't like me. But this is about my life, what I believe, and no airy fairy ideas. I want to go to the depth. So I'm just meditating on is it true he doesn't like me? So I'm looking at his face, his posture, I'm seeing that now the answer is either yes or no. It's one syllable. So we, we just, we remain still in that. And until that yes or no comes, the immediate answer is yes, he said so, but no, you'll get still in it. What else do you see in there? And again, don't, don't try to make nice in here. So the answer is yes or no. And then the second question, if it's yes, I ask myself, can I Absolutely know that it's true that he doesn't like me. And I sit in that and my answer could still be, yes, it's true he doesn't like me. But I'm going to spend some time in there until I draw that conclusion form myself, until I'm shown in that image of the two of us together yesterday. And then the third question is to notice how do I react? What happened when I believed the thought that he doesn't care about me, that he doesn't like me. And then I meditate on that and I get really still and I can see myself, I can see him there and I get in touch with my. Did my attitude change? Did it become aggressive? Did I look hurt? And I'm not judging any of this. I'm just witnessing how I react, how I react when I believe the thought in that situation. And oh, we learned so much about why the body responds the way it does. It is. It's such a radical thing to get in touch with. And we cease to. We cease to think that it's just happening beyond our. That these emotions are just happening to us. We're seeing cause and effect when I believe it, this is how I react when I believe the thought. And how do I react when I believe the thought? I see those images of past future. I see him where he doesn't like me. And then I see him in the future where he'll never speak to me again or, or, you know, on. And I'm meditating in how do I react? What happens mentally and physically when I believe the thought? Do I manipulate? Do I strike back? Do I get even? Am I silent? Am I giving him the cold treatment? I'm just witnessing a moment in time. We've heard the expression know thyself. So then the fourth and last question is, who would I be in that situation without the thought he doesn't like me. And now I'm going to meditate there, but I'm going to see him now. I may begin to experience some compassion. I can see at the time he was. He was really upset. He was out of sorts. I see enough to know that I wasn't the cause of that in that particular situation. I see, I see, I see. And compassion and, and what pours in there is, oh, it's, you know, it sounds odd, but it's just our kindest nature shows up and we get in touch with that at the same time as well. And then I invite people to turn it around, you know, to just flip it over and to try it on like a new pair of shoes. Just try it on. Does it fit? He doesn't care about me. Turned around. I don't care about him. Okay, so where was it in that situation? I wasn't caring. Where was it I attacked him. You know, I'm just going to witness. I don't even need to take questions in there. I'm shown. I'm meditating on that moment in time with that human being and, and then we see how it fits. I don't care about him. Now this is, you know that word you used earlier, Dave, forgiveness? This is where it starts happening automatically through this process. You can just fall, fall on your knees to a person like that that pushes you to, to know yourself, to become a kinder human being. Now another, another way of turning it around. You never know how many will be there. Maybe just one. But he doesn't, he doesn't like me to round. I don't like me. Okay, now I'm going to meditate. In what is it about that situation? How did I treat him? What did I say or do? How did I react that I don't like me for? I don't, I don't, I don't like me when I hurt another human being when I say something or do something that it is against my heart. It's just simply not wise. It's not every fairy. It's just, just not wise in life. Aggressiveness in my world holds me back and, and it shows up here in this, this, this process. So he doesn't, he doesn't like me. He likes me. There's another opposite. Okay? Now it takes a lot of stillness to go back and listen to his words, look at him, you know, what do I see? And I'm trying it on like a pair of shoes. Maybe it fits, maybe it doesn't. But basically, Dave, it's, that's the simple process. And anyone that wants to heal their life, you know, every, if I have anything of value, it's always free, no charge on the work dot com.

I appreciate that. When you have really precious knowledge like that and you choose not to share it as widely as you can, it feels like you're out of integrity. At least I feel that way. I like to put the most important things I know out there.

Yes.

And in this case, I look at this, I come from Silicon Valley, I'm a former computer hacker. And there's a portion of the audience who is totally spiritually tuned in. We're all meditating, we're doing all these things. And, and I'VE seen a shift in the last 10 years where some of the very best computer programmers, developers, tech CEOs, whatever they are, they've started meditating because they felt the performance improvements.

They're hacking their brain.

They are hacking their brain. And what you've described there in those four questions, when I run it through my own filters, it's a logic problem. And you can take any situation and you could make a little truth table and you can look at all possible solution sets to that thing. And the line of inquiry that your four questions in the work invite is to say, all right, let's evaluate both sides of the equation or the problem we're working to solve, and let's look at all possible angles from it, which is what thinking human beings do anyway. But you're providing a framework for doing that which makes it much faster. Instead of eventually realizing there's some sort of murky answer in all this, by just putting it in a Q and A format and then putting it in, you always look at both sides of each thing. You end up with a very different solution to the problem than you would.

And you end up with a friend, and they don't have to like you back.

Yeah, yeah.

But you're connected. Under all circumstances, connected. And in that we're excellent listeners. And a connection like that, oh, my gosh, being with people changes our lives. It always ups our game.

It does up your game. And I love the way you think about that. That's been exactly what's happened in my life. And you said something else, though. In your books and in some of your interviews, you say that when you discover that all happiness is inside you, the wanting and needing are over, and what replaces the wants and needs when.

People do the work, you have everything you want and you have everything you need. It's just simple. Like, just consider this moment now. And I ask your listeners to do the same thing, you know, other than what you're thinking and believing. Look at what you've got. Look at what you've got. And that'll take you a while. You couldn't count it all if you just sat, got still and looked around you. And I mean, there's. I mean, I'm sitting in a chair. These clothes I'm wearing, there are layers. I don't need them all. There's. The chair is holding me, and the chair's taken care of. It has, you know, these cushions and this color and. And then what's holding the chair is the ground, but that's not enough. There. There's this nice rug under, you know, and, and what holds the ground and what holds that? And what holds. You can't count it all. You can sit out in a lawn with. With grass on it and just look at one blade of grass. And, and, and all the secrets of the universe are there. And it's for you. You begin to experience it. So close that it is for you. Everything for you. Oh, my gosh. I just, you know, obviously I fall easily into rapture. I am so grateful for the way things are now. If someone stands in front of me and says, I'm going to kill you, why is it I don't have a problem? I'm not dead yet. Now, if I imagine what he's going to do, I have lost my life. I'm in a future that is terrifying. And I am missing this given moment in time. My life is here. I've joined it. Now, let's say he shot me, okay? Am I gonna scream and yell before I even see if it hurts? I don't know. Don't know. So, you know, I'm saying this. It may sound a little radical to some of your listeners, but, but, but I am about the end of suffering and to the beginning of. Let's do what we can do where we are and change things. It's. This is a powerful. It's a powerful life we're given. But if I'm in past, future, people say, be here now. Well, why? Well, because this is where you are. This is where it works.

You've cultivated a sense of gratitude for wherever you are. Even if there might be better places you'd like to be.

Well, I've just simply noticed and there's nowhere I'd rather be. That would be crazy. Where would I be? Where could I be that I wouldn't take this?

Wouldn't you want to be somewhere? Not with a guy with a gun about to shoot you.

Well, you know, I can run, but I don't think I'll outrun a bullet. But if I can outrun that bullet, I'm going to run. I'm not crazy. Peace doesn't mean crazy.

Exactly. So you could be in a state of peace even if you're in a situation like that. Peaceful running. I like that.

Yeah. And you know, a man did put a gun, pull a gun on me one night. I think it was about 2am but it was the most beautiful evening and the clouds in the sky and I could smell the river that was running not far away. And it was. It was a glorious evening and a man, I guess I frightened him. I was on his property or something. I was just out walking as I tend to do and smell, smelling the air. And I guess I frightened him because he came up, what are you doing here? And I'm sure his language wasn't that polite. And he put a gun in my stomach and he said, I'm going to. And then he used a word, kill you. And I looked at him. Oh, you know, I don't know why I tell these stories other than I do, but it must be important. He looked into my eyes. I looked into his eyes. I saw terror. I saw terror. And at the same time I could see the moon in the sky and the clouds and how the light from the moon hit the clouds and the sky. It was amazing. Now the other way is to imagine the bullet hitting me before he pulled the trigger. To imagine the pain. To imagine me not having my. Not ever seeing my children again. To imagining me all. All of this on such a beautiful night. Now that to me is crazy. And I wasn't in a position to run, but I was in a position to look into his eyes and experience compassion. And he put the gun down.

Why do you think he did that?

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But I was in a position to look into his eyes and experience compassion. And he put the gun down.

Why do you think he did that?

What I can tell you is I was completely connected. And I think in that there's a kind of meeting where there was no room for his fear as well.

So he just felt that what he sensed from you was not the response to his terror that he was expecting.

And just decided, you know, I think so, Dave, that in the absence of fear, what is there to fear? And no one pulls a gun if they're not fearful.

That is very true. That's a powerful story. And the idea that you could stay present even in a situation like that is a testament to the growth that you've done.

And also, again, who wants to miss the rest of their life? That could be it.

What advice would you have for the guy who pulled the gun on you if you could talk to him now?

You know, I had a thought when he said he was going to kill me. My thought was, I hope he doesn't do that to him.

Yeah. Because that does come at a great personal cost. When.

Yes, it does.

When they don't show you the movies.

I wouldn't wish that on anyone. He was about to hurt himself.

Do you think that most people listening to the show can reach that level of inner peace?

You know, I. I have a lot of people across the globe that are saying their lives are shifting so dramatically they're unrecognizable. But I don't call it the work for nothing. You know, it. It does take stillness. It takes silence. And it takes being courageous enough to look at the thoughts in your head without trying to change them and accept them the way they are. You know, I. I spoke earlier to loving the ego. You can't fight the ego. It doesn't rest. But you can love the ego. You can identify it, question it with the other part of the mind and allow it to speak, meaning, to show you. Like, he doesn't care about me. Is it true? If I get still, you know, the ego. The ego is going to offer it all up until finally, you know, this last book I. I wrote was a mind at home with itself. And that's what we're talking about. When the ego. The ego is like a lost child. And as long as it's lost, that's frightening. It's. It's a frightened identity. So once it finds a home in itself, that's all it's looking for. So I get given. I've given the mind a Home. So it's, it's happy there.

How do you define the ego?

You know, on a false, false identity, you know, he doesn't like me, there's something wrong with me or I think or I should. I need. I, I am Byron Katie, sitting here with my friend Dave and I, I, I. So what happens in inquiries, Identification falls away and I just remain not, you know, just like not before and after. But here I am with my friend Dave having this discussion and I hope it serves people and I'm present.

Where do you think the ego comes from? Why is it there?

Well, you know, it's really not.

What does that mean?

Well, like you just asked a question and you'd have to go back to the past to leave the impression with yourself that you even said it. So, you know, there's before and after and now. And now that now that I spoke of is gone.

So ego doesn't live in the present is what I'm getting out of that.

No, no, ego is, it's a will of the west.

Why is the ego there?

Well, you know, it's, you know, I just spoke to. It's not really, but the ego is, it's got to be identified because ego is mind and mind is nothing. You can't take it out, you can't touch it, you can't feel it. It's nothing. It's not even air. So it's looking for a home. So it's first, its first identification. Let's say it's I. Well, that's not much of a home. I am. Well, now it's kind of getting settled in. I am a woman. Well, now it's kind of settling in. Or I would, I would say now I am, you know, I. And now it's he, she, them, me, I. But it's all about this false eye. You know, I like to invite people to consider on who would you be without your story and to just get still in that and to notice how quickly that story will come. But, you know, it's. It's the ego's looking for a home and because it can't have one, it's mind, it is not a physical, it is not an object. Mind is not ob. Object. So I am sitting here with my friend Dave and you know, who cares if it's true or not? I'm present, I'm at home in myself and I'm fully aware this, this, this body, this object is not I. But where's the problem?

One of the things that's interesting about the English language is that we say I am hungry, but in most other languages we would say I have hunger. And the difference there is that we're so clearly identified with our meat, with our body. And some of it's linguistic, some of it's. It's cultural. When you say that you are. Or at least I'm paraphrasing, but it sounded like you said you are not your body. Right.

Like mind is not body.

Right.

So mind is not physical then what.

Is mind if it's not physical?

Well, you know, we spoke to it earlier, but mind is false identification. And you know what you asked me days? I just tell you mind does not exist. It cannot exist unless it identifies, and that is false identification. Mind isn't.

Isn't that similar, though to saying love doesn't exist?

Well, you know the nature of everything. You know, I. I'm speaking out of my own experience. It's like I loathe myself and now I don't. And what is that? Self, you know, I don't really care. I'm at home. To me, that's love. Love is balance. It's connection. I used to tell my children, you know, they'd say, I want, I need. And I'd say, oh, you know, sweetheart, make friends with mediocrity, you know, stay in the center. And I understand why you wouldn't. And balance, center, it's the closest thing to it, you know, no name, no self, and no handicap. This power and present.

Absolutely. I'd like to get your take on a technique that I use. I recognize that as I mentioned earlier, my powers of self deception are strong. I think all humans are. And so if I get to choose the story I'm going to believe about something, then I might as well choose the story. That's the least amount of work and the most, most amount of joy and happiness. So the example, I used to have a very overactive middle finger when people would cut me off in traffic. I had lots of rippling muscles on just that one finger. So it was always the story was they're cutting me off because they're more important, they don't respect me, blah, blah, blah. And in one of the personal development workshops, I just realized, well, okay, I can also say they're cutting me off in traffic because they're on the way to the hospital to see their mom on her deathbed. I have no idea. Both stories are complete bs, but I just choose to believe that story without any facts because neither story has facts backing it. All I know is they cut in front of me and I found that by doing that, it reduces the amount of stress and friction in my life dramatically.

Oh, absolutely.

Is there value to choosing a story that may not be true just because it's more pleasurable than one that is false and unpleasurable?

Well, the reason that worked to my mind is that it was just as logical.

Right.

And so you balanced out. I mean one, one is just as insane as the other. You don't know, but you balance, you balanced. It could be just as true. And so you got that center place.

Is that a technique that you would recommend for listeners? We recognize that whatever story you have might not be true, which is part built into your questions in the work. But then to intentionally select the story that is equally less as equally likely to be true as the first story. But rather than saying I don't have a story, just making up the story that hey, the universe is conspiring in my favor, you know, it's not true, but you can still, you know, choose the story and say since I'm going to choose a story that isn't true, I might as well choose or one that I don't know to be true. I might as well choose the one that makes me feel the best. Or is that still self deception that's going to be harmful in the long run?

Okay, so, so here's, here's what I would say safe for your listeners is try this one on the universe is friendly. And anything that doesn't match that, then I would just open my eyes and see where it's true. And then that balances and it doesn't have to be such an individual thing. We can just take one and keep it. And I'm for the end of suffering and what you described, you know, beautiful and the universe is friendly. You know, if, like when I, when I fell and you know, did that thing with my, my foot and my knees about a week and a half ago, it's, you know, it's, it's my gosh, it's a friendly universe. I knew that balding. I knew that when I hit the ground, I knew that as they were putting the cast on, I knew that as I know that as I sit here. And so it shows up for me all the time.

So maintaining that mindset is a part of what brings you happiness and presence all the time.

And you know, one of the great, I think it was maybe Einstein and I don't, I don't know anyone could look it up, but he said the, the universe is friendly. Just that. And so I would say the Universe is friendly and I invite everyone to test it.

I feel like I don't, I can't prove right now with what I know that the universe is friendly. So I'm going to assume that it is and tell myself that story. Because life is a lot easier and better with that mindset than without it, while at the same time holding the knowledge that I don't have proof that that's the case. Some would argue though that that is an unhealthy self deception or an unhealthy state of mind versus being completely neutral. I just find it doesn't work very well to be completely neutral. I'll choose the story that motivates me the most, that encourages me to give back more and have more energy. But I also recognize, well, see, that's very wise. Okay, so you're in alignment with that because I do.

Oh, completely.

Am I deceiving myself in the right direction? Even though it's not provable? And I'm sort of thinking, I don't care if it's provable, I like it better this way.

Absolutely. You know, optimists have more fun.

That's true. They also live longer. There's a recent Optimists live longer. A recent study around skeptics versus optimists. And skeptics die. They tend to have cognitive dysfunction earlier and die earlier than people who are optimists.

So, you know, the reason it feels good is it's closer to what I have come to understand. The universe is friendly. It's just a step closer each time.

And so your belief is that the universe is actually friendly?

Oh, actually, actually completely.

So I, I like to believe that. I, I haven't proven it yet, but I'll continue to, to believe that story because it's just, it's just a lot easier to do good work that way.

I'm still, I am still a skeptic. Believe me, I am a skeptic. And that's why inquiry is such a part of my life. And it always comes out, you know, when I question the silly head of mine. Yeah, the universe is friendly. Yep, got it, Got it.

How did you keep your ego in check as you went from someone who is depressed and agoraphobic to someone whose work is seen by millions of people and leading voice in personal development. How did you avoid the spiritual ego side? Hey everybody, look at me. I'm so good. Other leaders have fallen off the path. I've interviewed some of them. Why did you not fall off the path? What was different about your approach?

You know, if I had the thought, oh, I am so enlightened, I would have to question that. I can't think of, I cannot think of the thought that wouldn't end in a question mark. It just wouldn't serve me.

So you would run your four questions against the oh, look at me, I'm so special. And what if I'm not special?

Oh my, oh my goodness. Yes. It just, it can't hold here.

Got it. So that, that's how you can stay humble and still do that. That's a very, that's actually a funny answer when you think about it. I just use my own work to not fall into my own ego, which is fantastic.

And I don't know how humble, how humble it is. I, I've never really considered myself as humble, but I certainly do know what hurts and what doesn't.

That's beautiful. Byron, I have one more question for you and it's a question I've asked every guest on the show for more than 500 episodes and a question that I statistically analyzed for my next book called Game Changers that comes out December 4th. Forth.

Oh, good.

I'm really curious to hear your answer to it. If someone came to you tomorrow based on all the things you've experienced in your life and said, I want to perform better at everything I do as a human being, what are your three most important pieces of advice? What would you say when you had to just boil it all down.

Oh my goodness, do the work, do the work, do the work. Another way of saying that is just identify any thought that would stop you from living your highest dream, your highest good, and anything that would stop you question it.

Beautiful. So that constant self inquiry you're voting with, all three of yours, all three of those answers, do that one thing and it's the one that matters the most.

So ask it again.

If someone said, I want to perform better at everything I do as a human being, and so that includes, you know, being, being in relationships, your work, you know, you're giving back to your community, all the things we do as humans. The three most important pieces of advice you'd have and, and you would say all three of those. Is that one thing the self inquiry?

Yeah, yeah. So get still question the thought that would get in your way and have a happy life.

So for you it's all about getting in touch with the incorrect voices in your head, getting on top of them and editing or at least becoming aware of what's happening there.

I would question anything that would keep me from having a happy life.

Byron, thank you for your stories, your questions and for your work and for the work and and I very much appreciate what you've done for the world and listeners can find your work@thework.com yeah, thank you Dave. Thank you Byron. Have a wonderful day.

Thank you Dave.

If you like today's episode, you know what to do. Go out and ask yourself those four questions. Is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true? How do you react? What happens when you believe? Leave that thought and who would you be without the thought? Give it a try. You'll find it works. And if you like that, why don't you pick up a copy of one of Byron Katie's works? They are definitely worth your time to read. Very, very powerful stuff around. Not necessarily hacking your biology, but hacking the thoughts in your head. When you look at the definition of biohacking, it changes the environment around you and inside of you so that you have control of your own biology. The thoughts you have control your biology and getting on top of those is as powerful as putting the right stuff on your plate. Thanks for listening. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.

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