Nature's Remedy: The Surprising Health Benefits of Urine Therapy – Darlene Teahen : 1171

You're listening to the human upgrade with Dave Asprey. You're listening to the human upgrade with Dave Asprey. Well, we're going to talk about something that might be triggering for you. Yes, we're going to talk about pee. What? Yeah, urine therapy. Urine therapy is something that has pissed me off for a long time. Hopefully you saw what I just did there. Okay. My seventh grade sense of humor really just injected anti aging peptides into my brain from the dad joke there, but I can tell you probably didn't laugh. So now I'm judging you, but not out loud. So why does urine therapy piss me off? It's because I don't want it to work. This is something that you read about if you're into detoxing. I first heard about this in the late 90s and I absolutely drank my pee one time and was like, that was not really pleasant and that this isn't worth it. And I've also heard from people who say, oh yeah, you know, I ferment my pee and I, you know, wash my hair with it and put it on my skin. And I'm like, this is a bit much for me. And I'm the guy who like pulls my bone marrow out a couple times and I've done, I've swallowed electrical stimulators that stimulated my intestines from the inside. Like, I'll do the weird stuff, but years after that, I actually probably a dozen times have injected my pee intramuscularly to modulate my inflammation response in a scientifically validated way that works clinically. So it turns out that there are things in your urine that are biologically useful. In fact, recent study published in a journal talks about stem cells present in urine. In fact, it would not surprise me if we can get over the ick factor if someday down the road you can actually extract stem cells from urine, which is a lot less painful than taking them from your bone marrow or from your fat. So that said, just a quick note about stem cells. I'm a little disturbed. I'm seeing a bunch of kind of low cost umbilical stem cell clinics pop up everywhere in the U.S. and there, there is a downside to umbilical cells that you've heard me talk about in documentaries and things like that, where I think your best bet is to use your own stem cells or to use gene edited or culture expanded stem cells, but maybe they'll come from urine someday. In fact, I'll bet you, but not yet. So our guest today is wrapping up her PhD and hasn't published anything on the topic of urine therapy or urine injection therapy or as it's called in Ayurveda, shivambu. But nonetheless, she's going to share what she knows. Her name is Darlene Tian. She's a naturopath, nutritionist, artist, author, and a fan of urine therapy. Darlene, welcome to this episode of the Human Upgrade.

Thank you, Dave. Thank you for inviting me on your podcast. It's great to get this information out there because I feel it's valid and needs to be heard because there is a big factor to it.

It's kind of funny because, like I said, I have swallowed my own urine and. And I did it in the 90s, and I've actually tried it recently as well. And, well, if you know how to eat your urine doesn't. It's not offensive. And if you eat the wrong stuff, like, gross. But it's not a regular practice. I don't, you know, have a shot glass full of urine every morning, like, apparently some people do. And there's so many different ways of using it. And we know it has immune factors like igg in it. We know it has stem cells. We know it has minerals. We know it's structured water, your body structures, all that water before it's excreted. So there's stuff in there that's useful. I want to ask you first, before we get into your topic of research, what got you interested in this in the first place?

Well, a client came to me. Well, I met this woman at a gathering, and she came to me, and she, you know, herd. I was a naturopath. She's like, I am doing this Shibambu practice. She's like, my family is very concerned, and she's like, can you check me out and see if I'm healthy? That was, you know, it wasn't, you know, do you want to do it? Do you want, you know, anything? It was just, can you check me out and see if I'm healthy? Because my. My family's concerned. And I had also heard about it in the 90s and read about it, and I kind of went, I think someone's pulling one over on me. And I put it aside like it's a prank. Right, right. And I'm like, is somebody just trying to prank people? And, you know, but when she. And then I had heard it, little bits here and there in my. In my readings and research. And then when she said this, I'm like, I would love to check you out. I would love to know more about this Anything that I don't know about, I want to know more about it. And so she came to my office, you know, and I checked her out. Her protein levels were fine. Her, you know, and, and she was mostly vegan, vegetarian at the time, you know, and, you know, drinking a lot of Shabamboo to the point where she didn't have much of an appetite. Her weight was good, you know, every. Her inflammation, everything was great in her body. She was very, very healthy. And I'm like, there's something here, there's something here. You've been practicing this for years now and you are very healthy. Not on any medications, you know, you know, every. A lot of people, you know, once they get into their 40s, they're, you know what I mean? They're on, you know, a whole series of drugs. She was not, you know, she was very healthy. So I'm like, there's something to this. And then so I started there. So there's some, there's books, there's lots of great books out there, you know, but they're not, they're antidotal, they're not research based. So I started reading these books and I was like, oh, there's something to this. Because this many people and you know, also being a 5 to 6000 year old Ayurvedic medicine and Chinese medicine practice, you know, that many people, you know, something's got to be up with this. There's got to be something more to this. So I had already declared my topic in neuroplasticity for my PhD and I had done research, I had spent months doing research, and I did an about face and told my advisor, I need to change my topic. I need to, I need to look at this further because there's something here.

What did your advisor say when you said, I want to study urine therapy? I mean, did he like literally spit a drink out or.

She, yeah, she's like, that's definitely controversial. She's like. But she's like, I'm really interested in hearing your findings too, you know, so, you know, everybody wants to know. Even the, even the people that are disgusted by it still want to know. Is this the future of medicine? Is there validity to this?

I think it's kind of funny. I mean, people are out there, you know, I'm injecting umbilical cord cells from eight women I don't know that aren't well tested for things. That's not a big deal. But I wouldn't use my own urine therapeutically.

Right.

Things that come out of my body are probably safer than things that come out of other people's bodies. Right, right.

And you take that a step further. You know, I'm willing to eat this, you know, anything, anything that's processed food that I don't know the processing process. And we've all seen pictures of factories and all that and their processing processes and you know, how unclean they are. And I'm willing to eat that, but I'm not willing to put my own, you know, urine in back in my body to see if it would heal me.

I look at all the weird things I've done before. I understood the nature of mycotoxins and mitochondrial function, neuroplasticity. I was desperate when I weighed 300 pounds. I mean, I would have done anything. And like I said, I did try my urine. Just said it didn't seem like it did anything because I didn't know what I was doing. But you're up in Canada, right? Is that where you're studying?

Yes. So I just recently moved from Canada down south, but that's where I started my research. I did all the research part of the study in Canada. Yes.

So I'm a dual citizen between Canada and the U.S. is there a difference in open mindedness of medical professionals in Canada versus the us?

I would say that that's a, that's a sticky subject because of the nature of the healthcare system in Canada being that it's, you know, paid for by taxes and that I would say it leans heavier to the allopathic side of medicine because then people have to pull extra out of the walls. They're already paying for the tax to have this medical system. Then they have to pay out extra if they want anything outside of that system. So it's a big reach for a lot of people who, you know, their budgets are being stretched and stretched right now with the rise of housing costs and the rise of food costs and the rise of everything.

You mean bad government in Canada. I think that's what you're saying. I heard that.

Right. So in the States, you know what I see and I am going to an American university is having the choice of being able to pick one practitioner over another practitioner. That choice of where I'm going to spend my money makes a big difference.

Yeah, I find there are fewer naturopaths and holistic care providers in Canada, but the ones who are there are better prepared and almost more militant because like they have to fight, they have to really want to do it in Canada because it's hard. And in the US we have a lot more of them, thank goodness, right? But the it's easier to enter and to make a living in the US So they both have their benefits.

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When I first tried urine injection therapy, it was with a guy who'd spent almost 40 years practicing detox medicine, who lived on Vancouver island, named Dr. Klein. Not sure if he's still practicing. And I've been working for years to reduce my body sensitivity to toxic mold. I grew up in a moldy basement. I did a whole documentary. You guys can see it for free moldy movie dot com. And it caused hormonal problems, it caused bacterial infection problems, cognitive problems, all kinds of chronic fatigue stuff. So I'd gotten over a lot of it, but Dr. Klein was an hour away. And I went, I consulted with him, and he said, well, I want to try this urine injection therapy with you. He said, it's, it was invented by an Indian doctor named Dr. Rashid Butar, who has been thoroughly canceled for his rational behavior over the last three or four years. This was long before that time. And so I read up on it, and he said, dave, here's a story. One of my clients was anaphylactic to cats, and his girlfriend got a cat. So he came in and said, you know, I'm going to have to break up with her. Like, I, I, I can't do this. Can you help? So he said, all right, expose yourself to the cat. Not to get anaphylactic, but just to get, you know, a reaction. And then wait four hours, come into my office, draw the urine, run it through a filter, and inject it into the muscle. And that'll present antibodies into your muscle as if they're foreign proteins. And then your body makes an antibody to its own antibodies. And Dr. Klein looked at me and he said, dave, we did nine treatments on this guy. And by his eighth treatment, to get any reaction to the cat, he had to put the cat's blanket over his face and sleep with it all night long to get even a sniffle. Okay, nine treatments. And like, okay, this is a form of evidence that's the most important in medicine. It's called clinical evidence. It's when people in the trenches treating people every day notice something works. And pharmaceutical companies love to say that that's not evidence, and that's because they're just good at marketing. But maybe sometimes cut some corners on science, because noticing something is the first step of the scientific process. It's called observation. So if a bunch of practitioners are seeing this, they're doing something that's unlikely to be harmful. The urine is sterile. It's run through a filter that would take out bacteria anyway. So is it likely to cause harm? No. Does it seem to have a clinical benefit? Yes. So let's study it. And my problem was he was an hour away. So I would eat everything I was allergic to. I'd make these horrible tasting muffins that had everything bad in them. And then I would eat them. I'd wake up in the morning, I'm like, I really have to pee, but I can't because I need that urine. So I hop in my car and I'd like bounce up and down, like speeding to go to Dr. Klein's office to get the urine, like run in and pee in a beaker. I did that a couple times. And after that I'm like, I think I can do this myself because it's easier that way. So that's my full urine injection therapy story. I think it did reduce some sensitivities. And every now and then, even now, I'm like, you know, I should run another round of that. But I don't know. It's a lot of work to inject 10cc's of urine with lidocaine through a filter into your butt muscle. And it's a little sore afterwards.

But what if you could do it a different way, right?

Do I have to snort it? What do I have to do if, if I can have zero allergies, I'd love to do it, right?

And this is what I'm researching. How can we do it inexpensively? How can we do it at home? How can we do it, you know, without pain? You know, as you said, you know, you've had stem cells removed from your spine. It's a painful procedure. You've had, you know, you've had in those lidocaine injections. It's painful, you know, so how can we do it easily without the cost anywhere in the world, without, you know, facilities, without labs, without, you know, how can we make this readily available to anybody who needs the healing, which is a lot of people. We're, you know, we're a society that's getting sicker and sicker, not healthier and healthier.

We are indeed. It's one of those things if there's a low cost biohack versus an expensive one. In all of my books, the goal is here's a principle that matters. Here's the free version, here's the relatively cheap version, and here's what crazy billionaires do. So if you're a crazy billionaire, you know, maybe you pee into liquid nitrogen and culture Expand your urine in a zero gravity environment with, you know, diamond crystal power. I don't know. Right. And maybe you get some crazy results. But if you could get 10% of those results by peeing in a cup and putting it in your smoothie, I have no idea what you're going to tell me to do. But whatever it is, look, this is free and it's absolutely competitive with the largest industry on the planet. No, I don't mean tobacco, I don't mean the petroleum industry. I mean the pharmaceutical industry, which is largely owned and controlled by the petroleum industry. So this is one of those things. This is a human right. And we've been doing it for 6,000 years. So let's dig into the science on it and let's just tell people what to do. So we. What is the best thing? Like what do you think is going to work?

Thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of studies have been done on urine, but not in applying it to the human, you know, externally or internally. They are, you know, taking out this enzyme. They're taking out, you know, this vitamin, this mineral. You know, they're looking at all the little bits in the urine. And then, you know, Big Pharma all the time is taking urine and taking out bits and then putting it into this pharmaceutical and reselling it. They're doing it all the time, especially cancer drugs.

And people don't know this, but when you pee in one of those outhouses, they sell your pee to big Pharma anyway. Right.

It's well known, you don't have to dig too deep to find that.

Yeah. And if you're sort of horrified, I'm like, I think they should pay me to pee in an outhouse if they're going to be selling my urine because I didn't sign a release. Right.

I know you've got top dog urine. You know, it's.

I've been quoted multiple times saying I have the most expensive pee on the planet. And I'm okay with that. And that's mostly because people say, well, you know what, if you pee out some of your supplements, well then my kidneys and bladder will probably be happy and my body had a sufficient supply. So I, I'm not worried about that. But I also know that we eliminate toxic metals and some mold toxins, some metabolic byproducts in urine, even some pharmaceutical drugs that, or estrogen like compounds. Are you worried about continuously concentrating and reintroducing those?

This was one of the concerns and I actually took a dive into this, you know, after I Did my study. I was interviewed. I was on a talk for a board of the International Shivambu conference call. So they had me on for. To answer questions. And there kind of. There was two camps on. There was this white sediment that forms at the bottom of the evolved urine. So aged, cultured, evolved urine is all the same thing. It's just setting it out to process. And there's this white film that develops at the bottom of it. And there was one camp that said it was really. It's really, really good for you. You should wipe that stuff on everything. And there was another camp saying, no, that's all the bacteria that's in. It's cleaning itself up, you know, and then, you know, so I was posed with this question, what do you think it is? So, you know, what do I do? I get out my microscope and I look, because that's the only way to.

Figure out, how dare you use science on something as gross as urine. Come on, Darlene.

So what I saw is I saw a microscopic bacterium. And then what it did was the stem cell encased itself around it and then it became heavy and dropped to the bottom. So they were both right. Yes, it's stem cells, but yes, it's stem cells with bacteria inside of it. So is there more potential in that stem cells if you've got, you know, you know, a quarter inch worth of stem cells, Is there still potential in those stem cells if you rub it all over your skin? Well, there's, you know, because it just took one piece of bacterium and brought it to the bottom. Well, there still could be more potential, but that would also have to be studied, too. So I didn't get that far in the study, but I saw that, yes, it's both.

What kind of bacteria? I mean, there are some bacteria you really don't want around, and there's lots of good ones.

Right. I didn't do a full study on that part. And this is the thing. There's so many different studies you can do. I want to see them all being done. But with my limited, you know, budget right now, this is a study that I did do of. I needed to know whether. Whether the Shivambu was going to be harmful to put it back in the body. That was the main thing. Is this harmful to put back in the body if there's bacteria in it, if there's medications in it, you know, can. If somebody ate something that was, you know, off, you know, is it harmful to put back in the body? And what I found, you know, is that there's a process in the body. You know, the, you know, it is plasma ultrafiltrate. So what happens is when the blood goes through the kidneys, it takes out the red blood cells because we need those to function. And you're left with the plasma. So when you're looking at blood that I pricked from somebody's finger on the screen, the red blood cells are floating around in the plasma, your own plasma, and that's full of the vitamins and the minerals and the nutrients that the red blood cells need to breathe in. And then those red blood cells are filtered out. And the excess from that plasma that we don't need, and it could be excess vitamins, excess minerals, excess hormones, excess everything is peed out. If you look at the University of Alberta, they've been partaking in this human microbiome study for the last almost 10 years now, where they're taking every bit from the urine and studying what comes out. They know already almost 3,000 healthy substances are in the urine. Then also, what I'm looking at it is I'm seeing that when you evolve it, when you age, takes out the bacteria, it has its own cleanup system. So it's its own microbiome, the urine that, you know, multiplies the stem cells, you know, which has huge potentials, and then cleans up. Anything substrates that are not 100% in.

Your urine cleans it up. But things like lead are still going to be there, right?

There could be small amounts of lead, but, you know, a lot of things like lead and heavy metals. And I do see, I do see heavy metals in the plasma when I'm looking at people's blood. But a lot of those things go through the liver. And that's why people's livers are so congested. You know, when the kidneys clean things out, it's already, you know, gone through the body and the liver is taking out the bigger chunks of things. And this is, you know, in my study was one of those key factors of why I was looking at the liver in particular is I wanted to know what in the liver, because if we can get the liver to start healing, the liver takes the brunt of all our indiscretions. If we can get the liver to start healing, then the body can start going in the right direction to clean up other parts.

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So walk me through urine therapy 101. So let's say that a listener is like, all right, Dave's a little bit crazy sometimes, but quite often there's some cutting edge knowledge here and it's been used for 6,000 years. So I'm probably not going to die and maybe I won't tell everyone at the next dinner party what I'm doing. So let's say you're kind of curious. How would you get started with urine therapy?

So a lot of people to start it, they just put a couple drops on their skin, they'll take some fresh urine and just put a few drops on their skin and, and in Ayurveda that's been done for thousands and thousands of years, they'll, they'll put, you know, the urine on their skin go out in the sun and it helps, you know, all their literature says, you know, it helps activate the skin sun, you know, and that's been done. It helps revigorate. In ancient times, they, you know, when somebody was traveling, walking for long distances, they would offer them their urine when they came to the door and let them sit in the sun to rejuvenate from their travels.

Like someone else's urine.

Someone else's urine. So they would have their family supply of urine and you would take that family supply and put it on your skin and lay it out in the sun to rejuvenate yourself from your travels.

I think I might start doing that when people come over to my house just to see what they say. The reason that, that I think would work would be a really powerful anti aging treatment for your skin is urea. In fact, if you look on the back of some of the really powerful compounds, they have urea in them. Because when you get that into your skin, it really helps with hydration of the skin. It. It's good for you. So this could just be a, a source of that. And of course, when you go in the sun, it's so weird. Ultraviolet light stimulates collagen synthesis, so you don't want to get a sunburn. But activating your skin with sunlight when it has extra urea where it'll absorb it also just opening up the pores, it makes good sense. And it's a lot cheaper than buying, you know, $100 skincare cream that basically has concentrated pee in it anyway.

Right, right. A lot of those $200 skin creams have horse urine in them. So would you rather take it from a horse or take it from yourself?

I think it depends on the horse.

Right. But this is, this is what you don't know when you're. But when you're buying these products, you don't know how they've been manufactured. But through ourselves, you know, it's kind of like, you know, there's a bit of, I think homeopathics to it too, where like cures like. So let's say you do have a bit of ailment, even a bladder infection or a kidney infection. If you drank your urine and there's a little bit of that infection that you're drinking in it, could that come back and help? You know, homopathically you then stimulate your body just like the E. GG reaction for your. With your allergies, you know, could that come back and stimulate your body saying oh yeah, this is going on. I really need to fix it.

Okay.

Because the body's a marvelous machine. It really always wants to heal you all the time. If you give it, you know, what it needs to heal.

All right. How long does it have to be aged?

So this is the thing. Some people, you know, in the Shivambu community, people age it for days, weeks, years. I, for my study, had to pick something that I could do within my studies so that I'm not tracking people for years. But at the same time, I want to see a result fairly quickly. So if you become sick next month, you don't want to wait years in order for the medicine to be ready.

Okay, so you would just store it. I mean, so what do you, like, pee in a gallon jug and just leave it under your sink?

You could. I would. I would make sure it's a very clean container. I prefer glass, but, you know, plastics can be used for short term, for sure. And other. Some people swear by copper. Some people, you know, and other vessels.

Copper would make a lot of sense. It's another Ayurvedic thing. I did Sadhguru's inner engineering course out in his giant place in McMinnville, Tennessee, and they sell copper drinking stuff. And it's. It's a kind of a different arm of Ayurveda. Having some copper ions in the water is probably good for you, although you can get copper toxicity. But depending on what you eat, your urine could be acidic or alkaline. If it's acidic and you put it in copper, you're probably gonna get a lot of copper in that.

Right, right. And so I tend to just keep it in clear glass containers that are clean and, you know, ready for use. If anybody sees any mold on top, then it's been contaminated and thrown out, you've got lots more in there.

Okay, got it. And I guess you don't want to put any antimicrobial stuff like grapefruit seed extract or iodine in it, because that would stop the beneficial fermentation.

That would, yes. So naturally it ferments and the stem cells reproduce on its own. And this, you know, I don't have to prove this. This has already been proven in a lot of studies. So because mine's a baseline study in humans, I'm taking my information from other studies that have been, you know, what are the characteristics of urine? Yes, they're antimicrobial. Yes, they're antibacterial. Yes, they're antifungal. Yes, they're, you know, this has already been proven. So I can jump off those studies to say yes, this is safe to put in the body because there's nothing in there that's going to hurt it. Of course, anything in too large amounts can hurt your body. You know, even water in too large amounts, you know, can give you toxicity. So what is the perfect amount is what you want to know, right? What is the perfect amount to have that healing process? So for my study purposes I needed to have a consistent amount for everybody. I needed my methodology to be consistent so that I could see the results across the board to see if they were the same. And So I used 5ml, so a teaspoon of 2 week old cultured urine and had them inject it rectally. So no needle.

Okay.

So one teaspoon doesn't come back out. It's not like a colonic or an enema. It's like a basti in Ayurveda. It's, it just stays in there and it gets absorbed through the veins. So there's a whole lot of veins in the rectum, colon area, there's a portal vein which goes to the liver, but there's also other ones that go through the endocrine system and all that, which, you know, can help your adrenals. Because in order for the body to keep balanced, you know, the whole endocrine system is constantly putting out hormones throughout the body on a regular minute by minute basis to keep the body in homeostasis. And if you can have a reaction. So this, you know, my, from everything I read, I was feeling like if I just put enough in there to have a reaction, I don't want so much in there that's going to have a too much of a detox reaction and people have to stop the study. I wanted just enough that was going to show that there's less inflammation, show that, you know, show that there's a healing reaction. And what does that look like? So you look, you do the full panel of, you know, of what's going on in the body, but you want to have enough to have a reaction, but not so much that it's going to set them over the edge either. So, so I use myself as the first guinea pig. I used a couple of clients as first guinea pigs before I even started the study to say, would you try this? You know, is this, you know, how did it make you feel? And what, so I could come up with the right amount. So for me, for My study was 5 ML.

And what kind of results did people report?

So I had them injected for two weeks, 5ml every day, two week aged urine. So when they first came into my office, I sent them back home with a big bag of peacups. And they, they're all labeled with their, you know, this is the day you pee in this cup. This is the day you pee in this cup. This is the day you pee in this cup. And this is the day you inject this this year. And this is the day. So it was. Everything was two weeks apart. So that there it was all consistent. But at home you can do whatever feels right for you. And I think this is where, after we discussed that of how would you do it at home, how would you make it. It can be slightly different for other people. But for this study, to keep it consistent, I found that 5 mils was enough to make a difference.

What is making a difference is like less allergies or weight loss or more energy or better vision. What are they, what results are they getting?

Everybody across the board had less inflammation in their liver.

Okay.

Everybody across the board had more oxygen in their cells.

Wow.

Everybody across the board, you know, was feeling a sense of more peace. They weren't as restless. Everybody was sleeping better. You know, these. Even if it's just a little bit better, these are big findings because they're just. They only did it for two weeks.

And it's free, right?

And it's free.

How does one go about introducing 5 mils of urine into their butt? Like, what kind of equipment do you use?

So all you need is a needleless syringe that you can pick up at any drugstore.

Okay.

You know, it's, it's like what they use for, you know, medication, stuff like that that's been, you know, just injected, you know, into somebody's mouth even, you know, but it's okay.

It's like the size of a pencil. You know, five mils is small.

Yeah.

And then it doesn't have a needle on the end, so it's rounded or something. And then you can just, I guess put it in.

And so you just insert and squirt.

Okay. And how do you get the urine into the syringe? You just suck it up into it.

You suck it up into it.

Okay. And you throw away the syringe each time.

And you can throw away the syringe each time or you can. Most people that do it on a regular basis keep the syringe. You know, you can, you can boil. You can boil them. You can do anything.

Spray with peroxide and rubbing alcohol. It's going to be sterile. Who cares? Right?

Right. Just like when people do regular enemas, you're not throwing out the enema bag every time you do an enema.

Okay. It's like that. Wow. All right, I am officially going to try this probably right now. We're filming this right before the biohacking conference. So I don't think I'm going to add this into my stack, but I will and I'll report back on the show and probably on social media. I'm willing to, I'm willing to give that a try. I've done far worse things in the name of, of biohacking, so. And I also don't really get triggered by anything at this point. One of the things that I'm really intrigued by is I believe that calcium oxalate buildup in humans is a major component of aging that we just don't talk about these microscopic calcium crystals that come from food, they also come from toxic mold in your environment. They build up and they get in your joints anywhere. That's that you've had an injury. 70% of kidney stones are caused by basically these really painful, really sharp things. They cause mitochondrial harm. In studies. They damage your neurons, they cause brain inflammation, they cause a lot of skin disruptions. And it's one of the reasons that I'm opposed to kale and spinach and more lately, recognizing that raspberries are profoundly high in oxalates, but blueberries aren't. Or eat more blueberries don't do raspberries. And a recent study, these were autopsies of adults, found something like 79% had oxalate crystals in their thyroid glands. So this is probably something that's linked to Hashimoto. So if you have health challenges, there's a good chance something's off in your metabolism and there's also a good chance you might have had some mold exposure. I've been planning this more and more, which does increase oxalates and urine contains something called urodulin, which is also known as THP in studies. And this is something that inhibits the crystallization of calcium oxalate. And that might help with kidney stones or system wide things. Have you looked specifically at uromodulin?

I haven't looked specifically at that because that's a whole another study. And that's why we need to start with the baseline study and then we need to do all these other studies to see how they react on the body. But there is hydrogen in urine and, you know, hydrogen water is the next biggest thing right now. But what if you could have free hydrogen water what if you have a structured water that's free, that you could have all the hydrogen you want it, that makes a big difference in the body.

That is a big deal. So right now, some people listening have heard about structured water. There's a lot of, I'm just going to say, a lot of hocus pocus around structured water in the world. There also are very real ways of structuring water. And my favorite and I'll say most powerful way is not homeopathy. It's actually structuring water the way your body does. And when you drink regular bulk water, your body holds the water up against cell membranes which are made out of fat, and then it exposes the water to 1200 nanometer light. We also cause that, we also call that body heat. And after a little while, you can see the change on a microscope. It creates exclusion zone water. And fresh squeezed juices are structured water. All life uses structured water for biological processes. So your urine, which has been through the microtubules in your kidneys, is 100% structured exclusions on water and your body really can use exclusion zone water to make energy right away. I came across this effect not from drinking urine, but on the side of Mount Kailash. In 2004, after I was partially recovered from chronic fatigue, I went to a remote part of of Tibet. And at 18,000ft elevation, I was feeling really bad. And a Tibetan woman gives me a little bowl of yak butter tea and I drink it, not understanding that the Tibetans figured this out. They figured this out a long time ago. All you have to do is take some fat, in this case butter, and mix it for a while with warm liquids. And magically you get exclusions on water. And I felt better at altitude there than I had in probably three years. I had tried being a vegan. I'd done every kind of diet, every kind of detox. And I just was so stunned that that's what caused me to come back to Silicon Valley and start testing butter and coffee. And then I started bulletproof. And then now I run Danger Coffee. But along the way I wrote a check for $50,000 to the University of Washington to Dr. Gerald Pollock's work, who's the foremost expert in exclusions on water. And he ran a study and found that the type of fat that makes the biggest exclusion zone is, funny enough, butter oil, which in Ayurveda is ghee. And this is why cream and coffee doesn't work. But butter or ghee in coffee does work, and MCT oil does work when you're making exclusion zone water. When you blend, you know your danger, coffee or frankly, warm water with butter and or MCT oil or what we're hearing now is you could use your own urine, which is automatically exclusion zone. So if you're at altitude or you're just feeling like crap and you drink a cup of your own urine, you will get water that your cells can immediately use to make ATP more efficiently. So this is just very clear cut. That's what exclusion zone water does. And now you're saying there's a dose of hydrogen in it. I have a hydrogen water machine and we've had a Tyler, Tyler Barron on a while ago talking about 800 studies of hydrogen water. It's like, okay, I have a free hydrogen exclusion zone water distribution system in my body. I just have to get over the ick factor.

Right.

Why are people so triggered by urine?

Well, we've been told since we're kids, ick, don't touch, don't touch. Dirty, dirty, dirty. You know, in North American's obsession with clean, cleanliness and antibacterial, it is actually to our hindrance because antibacterial. Now we know we have drugs that are, we're anti, you know, resistant to because we're too antibacterial. You know, we haven't built up enough, you know, bacteria in our, in our, you know, for people to think, oh, I'm peanut bacteria and I'm. And it's icky. Well, that's saying that you're icky. You know, so there's a, there's a big process there to learn the body and learn what part of it needs to be, you know, safely disposed of and what part of it is actually medicine. So, you know, if you have urine that has hydrogen in it, it has oxygen in it, has vitam and minerals in it, and it's structured and all kinds of hormones and enzymes that could maybe potentially we have to do more studies on it, but balance all of those. That is every single, you know, medicine in one that is free.

Wow.

I think there's something there.

It sounds like there is something there. One of the things that you'll see if you've ever peed in a beaker, and like I said, I've peed and injected my own pee. So I've peed in beakers more than a few times. Sometimes you'll see little white crystals that come out when you pee. Those are different than the white film that forms over time when you're fermenting urine. Right. Those are not something I Think you want to reintroduce. Those are usually oxalate crystals or possibly phosphate.

Yeah, those are oxygen. That's. Those are from the kidneys, for sure. That's proteins from the kidneys.

Well, proteins and particularly that calcium oxalate. So you don't want that. Right. So you would leave that in there. Um, do you filter the urine before you. Before you ferment it? Do you run it through a little micropore filter or anything? Or you just let everything go?

Just let everything go. And it does its own filtering system. So you'll notice if you leave it out that it kind of has layers to it. And so in my study, I had people co. You know, when they dipped in their syringe, I had them collect it from the middle of the cup. That way I had them take midstream, and I had them take it from the middle of their cup. You know, so they peed in their cup every morning and, you know, made sure, you know, they were clean. They, you know, they bathed and they had midstream so that we could reduce the risk of contamination.

I've seen people take their urine and put it in a glass container and leave it in the sun to gather sunlight. I do know that sunlight will create exclusion zone water. Do I need to tan my pee before I drink it?

It's not necessary. But people do this, you know, when you're making tinctures from herbs, people put it in the sun, people put it in the moon. Why not do it with your urine? You know, what kind of benefits would that cause? That's another study that could be done. Absolutely. Is putting it out in the urine more beneficial? So if, you know, like, you know, in India, where they put it on their skin and go out in the sun, what is the difference between sitting in the jar and going out in the sun? Is there. You know, so all this needs to be studied where. Yeah, one point is the most beneficial.

One of the things I like about your perspective and your work on this is you talk about, like, the emotional trauma aspects of this. And if you're listening to this guy, Dave, what are you talking about? Well, if you study advanced meditation practice or advanced Buddhism or in particular, Tantra, people oftentimes think tantra is a sexual practice. And there is an arm of tantra about that. But really, tantra is about finding the divine in everything, including things that are gross. Right. And if you have labeled P as gross and you're saying, oh, this is like an advanced meditation, I'm going to choose to. Instead of being triggered by this to actually deal with the trigger. Any trigger you have is probably not benefiting you because it's an automatic thing instead of a chosen thing. So you're saying, all right, I'm going to, you know, take a deep breath or do whatever's necessary so I can, you know, try doing this thing that, you know, might push your buttons but also might be beneficial. It's sort of like achieving mastery over your triggers. Tell me a little bit more about your perspective on what happens in connection with the self and other things around urine therapy that maybe you wouldn't hear anywhere else.

In all of natural medicine, we don't subdivide physical health from mental health. It's only in the allopathic medical system that they subdivide it. It is treated all as one. It's like a cheater totter. When something's off in the physical, something's off in the emotional. When something's off in the emotional, something's off in the physical. And they reflect each other. In those traditional medicines, it's, it's always seen as a balancing game between the mental, the emotional, the physical and the spiritual. There is a balance that needs to be in place. So even if somebody that comes into my office has no interest in urine therapy, he's never heard of it before, that's fine. You know, I'm going to use herbs, I'm going to use lifestyle changes. But in those herbs and lifestyle changes, one of the lifestyle changes has to be. There has to be something for their mental and emotional so that they can make the quantum leap faster of healing. It has been proven over and over again in Ayurvedic and Chinese medicine and now in more natural integrative medicines that if you add that component to it, you can heal faster. For my study, I had people do some breathing exercises, just some simple breathing exercises, five minutes, twice a day, you know, for the two weeks they were injecting because they needed a release mechanism, they needed somewhere for that energy to go. Whether it's emotional stuff, come up with the ick factor, whether it's anything else that's going on in their life. There has to be a relief lease mechanism for that.

And you think urine therapy helps with that?

I do, I do. Because, you know, it's a detox. So even if somebody was just doing water fasting or jeep juice fasting as a detox, there, you know, you can talk to lots of people who, you know, when they do that, they'll say something, something shifted. You know, I wasn't as anxious I wasn't as, you know, this or that when they're, you know, treating the physical. But there's emotional things that happen too. And so in some of the more ancient texts they call shivambu. Shivambu, you know, in Ayurveda is your spirit water. It is God. Water is what it's called. And in those ancient traditions, you know, you are God and that is you're the water of God.

So there's probably something spiritual going on here. I'm totally down with that. My experience of Ayurveda and traditional Chinese medicine and some of the other ancient stuff from even South America and even some of the old healing texts from the world of Islam is that they had much less of a separation between the, the spiritual, the emotional and the physical. But they did come up with stuff that, that worked. And it's almost like there's been a concerted effort to just throw all that out because they were primitive. But I don't think they were that primitive if you start looking back. So I'm, I'm very open minded about that stuff and I think it present, it presents some academic risk for you, right?

It does.

Because if you're saying it works by chemicals and you're saying and it works by trauma. So kudos for just calling it like you see it instead of taking the more rigid path.

And this is where I'm trying to bridge the two worlds, the old medicine and the new medicine. I'm trying to bridge the two worlds so everybody can understand and have the healing that's necessary. Because without, you know, all that understanding of both worlds, it's hard to know how this is going to work with for me. And some people, you know, depending on their disposition would be like, sure, I'll try anything and, and gulp it down. And other people, people will be like, not in a million, not gonna happen. But if you're sick enough, if you're sick enough, you're willing to try anything. And I've had many people contact me from all over the world. I've been there, who've had lots of very interesting things that's manifested in their body as different illnesses. And they're like, they're the kind of people that have tried everything and they're like, I try shivamboo, but it hasn't quite worked for me. What am I doing wrong? Wrong. And so what I say for this demographic, because people are going to, you know, try it or not try it, is go slow. Go slow. Because when some, the body's been Broken down for decades. It can detox too fast, it can be too much, too soon. It can be like all of a sudden seeing the alien and being overwhelmed and passing out and not remembering if it actually happened or not. You know, it's too much.

It's like Burning man, basically. I gotcha.

Yeah, yeah. So when those people come to me, I have to restructure. You know, we have to, we have to work on their digestive system. We have to work on, you know, all these things first before they can even start doing that because it's too much for them. Every, they're reactive to everything. So then that's when the autoimmune diseases start kicking in and everything. Because you're just reacting to everything and then, and reacting to their own body. So if they're reacting to their own body, then they may react to the urine too. But it can be through correcting the digestive system, through the gut flora, through fixing the ph, these things, then it can be more acceptable to the body and then further healing can happen.

For years now I've talked about fecal matter transplants and I've even taken parasite eggs on stage at the biohacking conference as a way of inducing healing in the gut. And that was kind of freaking people out. Those were I think pig whipworm eggs, if I remember right. And so there's all these things that you're like ew. But there's clinical evidence for them. And fecal matter transplants, you take health, you take poop from a healthy person and you put it in an unhealthy person and sometimes within minutes to hours, it can reverse a life threatening clostridium infection.

Right.

So this is all leading up to the question, should I be asking my healthiest friend for their urine or should I be using mine?

Right. I think you should be using yours. Because back to the beginning, the homeopathic version of it, unless you were super sick and couldn't use your own or you had maybe some exposure to radiation or something, then I would take somebody else's.

There's also, there's some pharmaceutical drugs that are eliminated, sometimes unchanged, or sometimes more powerful metabolites. So if you're on pharmaceuticals that exit through urine, you might have to reduce your dose if you drink a meaningful amount of urine. But if you're just having, you know, 5 milliliters, it's probably not going to matter.

Right, right. And you know, ejecting 5 milliliters rectally is a whole lot easier than a fecal transplant, a lot safer and Cleaner. You know, there is, you know, very little that can go wrong with 5ml injected.

The only time in the research I've done where I've really come across people intentionally drinking other people's urine is when you're working with hallucinogens. So some tribes, when they were eating certain types of mushrooms, the men would drink the mushroom tea or eat the mushrooms first, collect their urine and give the urine to the women because they were protecting the women from the first line toxins because the women had kids. Right. So it was almost like, here, I'll just use my filter first. And then the psychoactive properties are still present in the urine, but some of the negative factors aren't. So I've seen that. And that would also mean probably if you had a really interesting night the night before where you were taking certain medications, probably MDMA or psychedelic mushrooms, probably not ketamine, from what I understand. Then you might want to not drink that urine because you would get re. Exposed. Right?

Yeah. But at the same time, you might want a bit of it. I've. After ayahuasca, I've.

I've drank.

I've drink. Drank my own urine the day after, for sure.

Oh, after ayah. I could see that. Yeah. As long as you're with a good shaman. Yeah, I. I have my concerns about.

Iowa, but traditionally, if you look at the traditional of drinking other people's urine after psychedelics, you know, shamans, what would. They would do is the people, you know, they were trying to reduce the potency of the. The plants too. At that time, we were at a different energetic level. And, you know, I've done a lot of study in, you know, South American medicines, and they were there. So the shaman would drink it, and then you would drink a diluted version of that because it was too strong more than anything.

So you were drinking the shaman's pee.

I didn't drink the shaman's tea.

No.

This is. This is, you know, in history of it, you know, when I've talked into different traditional shamans in the Shapebo tradition and other shamans, that's traditionally what was done. People didn't actually. And some or sometimes they didn't drink it at all. The second time around, they were just, you know, the shaman would send his energy or their energy on the people in the ceremony, and they didn't take any medicine at all. So there's different kind of layers and there's different traditions, and they're all very interesting and fascinating of why they did one thing and why they didn't do another thing because some of it could just be cultural because, you know, they were the big, you know, shaman and they, you know, they're stronger than somebody else. Or is it, you know, is there an actual reason for it energetically to pass it through so that it can be processed better?

All right, I'm going to go through the, the complete list of ways to use urine and then I want you to sort of walk me through a short version of each of those. So here we go. These are the ways you can use your own urine for healing. There's drinking it, there's injecting a small amount, rectally injecting it into muscle tissue. There's nebulizing it and breathing it, and then there's rubbing it into your skin. And you can do it with fresh or with two week or more aged urine. All right, what do I need to know about this?

You can also bathe in it. You could also put it in a neti pot. You can put it in eye drops.

You put it ear drops, edipot of urine. That's aggressive. I haven't tried that. What does that do?

And I've done it before. So when I was a child, I had an operation on my nose. So I had all the veins burnt in my nose and I had a bunch of scar tissue in my nose.

Chronic nosebleeds, huh?

Yes. Yeah. And, and although all the wisdom, all the wisdom is that they just burn the veins, well, that doesn't really fix things and it causes a lot of issues.

I had to do PTSD work on that. I. I had silver nitrate, which burns really bad, rubbed in my nose, and then they electrically cauterized my nose without anesthetic. When I was under 10. That was not something I would like to repeat. And it was because I had chronic nosebleeds because they didn't understand toxic mold or mast cells. So you got scarring from that? I probably have a little scarring too.

Right. When I first started doing happy Rape with the indigenous practices, it. It burnt like, like really bad because of that scar tissue. And I'm like, I've got to heal this. I've got to work on this. So at the same time, I was also starting to get into this practice. And so I put a little bit of fresh in with water in my neti pot, Celine salt water, mixed the two together so it wasn't as strong and put it through my nose. And I have it all healed now except for one little teeny piece. And I did that regularly. For a couple years.

Wow. And you. You think it healed your sinuses?

Yeah. Yeah, because it was, you know, there was always this irritation inside my side. It says there's nothing wrong, but nothing. Right. You know, there is that. Just that, you know, where I just wanted to get up there and like, you know, any little booger would, like, cause irritation because of, you know, they took really soft tissue and they burnt it. Right.

Wow. It's amazing what doctors will do when they don't understand the why. They say if you have this, do this will stop that symptom. But maybe that's not the way because.

It'S very proactive rather than preactive. You know, it's going to stop the bleeding. But why is it bleeding to begin with? What was going on? I had some bad digestive problems, and they weren't looking at that. They weren't looking at what was going on in me as a child. They just like. We stopped the bleeding, we fixed it.

Chronic nosebleeds are almost always caused by sensitive mast cells in the nose, because when a mast cell gets set off by an allergen, it releases heparin, which is a blood thinner. So then I went through many years of ten nosebleeds a day. Like, I always had Kleenex and like, Afrin nasal spray, because that'll stop them quickly. Just even go through high school. It's really not good for dating to have nosebleeds all the time. Right.

I had. I had nosebleeds to. Every time I had a nosebleed, I had to go to the hospital so they could stop it. I couldn't get it to stop at the going to the hospital.

Wow. So you had a really big reaction. It's funny how people have, you know, different health problems. Just figure out, here's what actually works, because you deal with it every single day. And I would have snorted my urine to stop nosebleeds. And fortunately, I very rarely get them now because I've got my immune system mostly under control, but every now and then, it still misbehaves. We haven't talked much about nebulizing. And so how much urine am I using? Evolved urine or fresh urine, and how much of it do I breathe?

Well, and this is the thing. Nebulizing is. Is kind of new on the market. I, you know, so I'm talking with an international community of, you know, Shivamba users. And, you know, so I'm just going by what they're saying and how they're doing it, because it hasn't Been studied the effects of nebulizing yet. But you know, the fine little particles it. Going into the lungs, it can help a lot, you know, so if it can help your liver, why wouldn't be able to help your lungs? It makes sense to me.

That's something I would be willing to try. So I'll probably find my nebulizer, have it in a closet somewhere, and, man, I'm gonna have to start peeing a lot. But I'm totally willing to try this stuff and report my results because it's unlikely to do anything.

I do know, nebulizing it, it goes into the blood cell stream really fast. So like with everything else, go easy when you first do it. I was on this conference call and this guy was nebulizing and nebulizing and nebulizing, and I'm like, how are you doing that? But he was the kind of person that had done all the detox, done all the fast, done all the, you know, you would be really dizzy from just taking in that much oxygen and that much, you know. But he was just, just going, so somebody that's regularly done it, and he's like, you know, just going to town on this nebulizer. And I was like, holy. You know, you've really cleaned. I could tell how cleaned up his body was by how long he was able to use that nebulizer.

Interesting. It's true that you can teach your mitochondria to make more energy. People sort of think I have energy or I don't. It's not a light switch, it's a slider switch. And I wrote about this in my, my big book on longevity about mitochondrial function. And something like 48% of people under age 40 have early onset mitochondrial dysfunction. So they're making energy just not very well. And almost everyone over age 40, unless you're on, on an aggressive longevity regimen like I am, you're going to have some, just lessening of mitochondrial power. So if nebulizing or drinking or doing anything else with urine helps to address that, like, I'm. I'm okay with that. I'm going to see what results I get. And if you've built a resilient system that's less triggered by things and makes power more effectively, of course you'd be able to handle more of something, whether it's good or bad. It just, it makes sense on its face.

Right, right. It's a good gauge of health. You know what I mean? You know, are you getting regular colds? Are you getting Regular flus. It's the body's way of detoxing. You know, this is a, this is a gauge of, you know, it's not just what's going on. It's how your immune system is functioning. It's how the body is keeping up with what's going on around you, mentally and physically.

Yeah, it's. It's a very holistic view, but I think it's the right view. One of the things I've seen for sore joints and I've had three knee surgeries before I was 23, I used to have terrible, terrible joint pain. Most of the time is that you can use urea or just urine on joints specifically. That hurt. So should people, you know, pee on a bandage and wrap it on their knee if it hurts? Is that going to make a difference?

I believe so. I would absolutely. If. And even burns and stuff like that, there's been huge. I would love to do a study on burns because just in my own first aid kit, my wife burnt her hand really bad two weeks ago and it was starting to blister. And I'm like, you're going to have to put urine on it. And she's just like, oh, this again. And so I took out my age during, because she didn't have any. And we soaked a cloth and put it and kind of dripped it over top of the burn and dripped it into a pan with ice and dripped it over. Within two days, she didn't have to put a bandage on it.

Wow.

Within, you know, now it's two weeks later, you can't even tell. There's not even a scar. And she grabbed a cast iron firing pan, not knowing it was hot.

It's funny, just back in 2022, the National Library of Medicine, there's a paper called Urine Derived Stem Cells for Epithelial Tissues Reconstruction and Wound Healing. So if you're listening to this show right now, you might be having cognitive dissonance going, wait, I thought he was gross. But they're publishing things saying it has stem cells and there's 6,000 years of history of using it for healing. So the healthy perspective to have on this is one of curiosity. You don't want to say it can't work. You don't say, I religiously believe, you know, that if I douse myself with urine, no matter what, it'll, you know, make me enlightened. Both of those are probably unhealthy perspectives, but is this a tool you might want to have in your toolbox? Yes, I think it is. Just Based on even that one study and then before that another group published something about functional characterization of immunomodulatory properties of human urine derived stem cells. What does that mean? It means that what you're saying about anti inflammation and control of inflammation, it's real. Not just because we've seen it for thousands of years in Ayurveda and in clinical practice, but because now we're seeing it in studies, including the kind of study that, that you did around improved sleep. Even. So, an area where I've, I don't have clarity is some people will say, well, you know, urine is an ultra filtrate and it's sterile, but it seems like every tissue in the body has a microbiome when we look at it. So urine is not technically sterile, is.

Is antibacterial and antifungal. And so it is, you know, if I was out in the woods and really badly cut myself and it was dirty for some reason at the cut point, you know, and I had nothing out, I would absolutely put urine all over it in order to clean it. I wouldn't be concerned that it was going to get more bacteria in it and cause me to, you know, have a bacterial infection. Blood wise. I would, you know, I would clean it daily with my urine 100%.

And urine's going to be clean, cleaner probably than anything else you find. You might find a waterfall or something.

But even that waterfall, you don't know if there's bacteria in that water, but you know what's coming out of you.

That's true. And there might be some bacteria in your urine, but unless you have a urinary tract infection, it's probably not particularly harmful bacteria. It might even be good bacteria.

Right?

And when I mentioned urinary tract infections, I've helped so many friends, particularly women who keep getting recurring UTIs. And I just step away from the kale, the spinach, the raspberries, the chocolate, even the sweet potatoes and all these nuts. They reduce the amount of oxalate in their diet and then they don't get micro cuts on the inside of the urethra from passing little razor sharp crystals and then they stop getting these infections. So I would guess that if someone knows they have a uti, they probably shouldn't collect that urine because there's a pathogenic bacteria in the path of urine collection. Right.

I disagree with you. I, I antidotely, I have someone that was using it for UTIs. Anytime they got it, they had chronic UTIs their whole life. Anytime they got a UTI now they drink a little bit of it and it seems to clear it up within two days.

Wow.

So, and, and that's what we're researching is.

Okay, so you're drinking it and it probably has anti antibodies or something that are signaling to the body that the presence of the stuff.

Yeah. So that the body will get to work and clean it up. So when somebody has a uti, there's bad bacteria in the urethra, in the bladder, possibly in the kidneys. You know, hopefully not too much in the kidneys. Then you're going to end up with a kidney infection. But usually it's because their gut biome is off and that needs to be corrected. So to me, it's not just the oscillates in those fruits and vegetables. It's a bigger picture. The bigger picture, you know, is, you know, the uric acid levels in the body. But a lot of uric acid levels can also be off due to the PH being off due to, due to a lot of different factors in the body. So all of this needs to be studied more and more so we have a better understanding of what needs to be done.

There's some interesting research out there about urine and ph. And if your PH is either too high or too low, it influences whether you're likely to get calcium phosphate kidney stones, which is the minority of them, or calcium oxalate, which is primarily caused by eating the wrong plants and by yeast or potentially mold metabolism in the body. So you don't want your urine to your urine PH too high or too low. And you can easily change it by taking baking soda, for instance.

Right.

What is the best urine ph in your opinion?

Urine PH should be a little bit higher. It needs to be a little bit higher than your saliva ph.

Higher means more alkaline. But you don't want it too alkaline because then you get more phosphate, Right?

No, you don't want it too alkaline either. You just want it a little bit higher so that you know it is the right, you know what's coming out of the body. But if your ph, you know, if you take your urine and you check the PH of your urine and it's too acidic, aging it makes it more alkaline. It does correct itself.

So the, the normal range is between 6 and 7.5 for urine pH. And so you like it like around 7, up to 7 and a half.

Ideally up to 7 and a half, 7.8 at the max.

Okay. And you can get that from baking soda. You can modulate what you Eat. Uric acid can be a thing, and I'm a huge fan of taking potassium citrate as a modulator for that. Because having extra potassium is generally good for you. It would be preserved in your urine, at least whatever wasn't used. And then you could recycle that if you wanted to. And having more citrate helps to break up calcifications in the body, which is why I like that.

Yes.

Are there any supplements that are incompatible with urine therapy?

Good question. Good question. You know, if somebody is on any pharmaceutical drugs, I would say, you know, take it easy, take it easy when it comes to the urine therapy because, you know, it can, it can help you get off it, but at the same time, you know, you don't want too much of that being restructured back in there. But as far as supplements, you know, if they're a good quality supplement from a natural source compared to synthetics, you know, supplements and vitamins. Synthetic. The body sometimes can't tell if it's real or not and will just let it all go. And then you're putting it back through and then the body has to release it again and then they put it in, you know, so if you're drinking that, then it's, you know, kind of in this vicious cycle. But the great things about eating, you know, real food that isn't chemically based and real supplements and herbs is the body's going to take exactly what it needs and it knows what to do with it and release the rest.

Yeah.

So I'd like to think, you know, that is the same with urine, that the body's going to take in exactly what it needs or at least what it doesn't need.

Back to that comment of saying, I have the most expensive urine on the planet, I'm okay to release what my body doesn't need because that means it got what it needed and it's. It's not that big of a deal.

Right.

It seems like there might be benefits if you're on chelation. This is where you're likely going to be excreting a lot more mercury and other heavy metals through your urinary tract. You wouldn't want to drink a lot of that, but a few drops of that probably will tell your body that you've got more of these things on board and you should start dropping them. So maybe it would help. But I wouldn't want to drink, you know, a cup of chelation pee.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to drink. No. If you're definitely. If you were. If you're on any kind of, you know, chemo or chelation or any, you know, anything that you're putting more drugs into you, I wouldn't want to do, you know, wait until after. Because even, you know, if you look at, you know, antibiotics versus probiotics, you know, you don't want to do a probiotic while you're on the antibiotic because it's counter. It's counterbalancing each other. So you want to. You want the. You want the antibiotic to do the work first, get rid of all, you know, the bad bacteria that's, you know, causing that, and then the probiotic after to replace what's been taken.

It's interesting. I brought an expert in i5, six years ago on the podcast. I'm not remembering who it is off the top of my head, but we went deep on that. And it turns out, at least from that expert, the perspective was you probably want to take the probiotics because even dead probiotics have signaling mechanisms that are beneficial in the body. Basically, dead, healthy bacteria serve as a postbiotic. So you would want to have those present. And it's unlikely to cause harm, but it's probably going to be helpful. And then as you're tapering off, you'll always have them present. So I, based on that, I started taking probiotics on the very rare times when it was worth taking an antibiotic, and I think I get better results from that.

And this is more. Another thing that needs to be studied more is, you know, some people will take the probiotic at a different time of day. You know, where they're taking. If they take the antibiotic in the morning, they'll take the probiotic at night, especially if their bacteria is way off, you know, and that may help other people, you know, if they've got a severe infection, you know, you don't want. You want. So the antibiotic is killing both the bad bacteria and good bacteria. It doesn't differentiate between the bacterias. And so if you're pumping in more good bacteria, you want it to make sure that it gets a good wipe of the bad bacteria. Is. Is my train of thought with this. And so I would like to stop that for a second, put in the, you know, kill as much of the bad bacteria as possible and then pump up the good bacteria and also, you know, the prebiotics. So vegetable fiber, fruit fiber, that is a prebiotic for the probiotic, which is going to help multiply it faster. That is the food for the probiotic.

Makes a lot of Sense to me. Darlene, your website is vitalityexpert. Ca. And guys, ca, that's the Canadian version of dot com, pretty much. So vitalityexpert. Ca. I know that you'll publish your work and you blog about things there. Where or what journals are you planning to publish your work in?

This is, you know, the controversy between natural medicine and allopathic medicine. They've kind of some of the allopathic medicine venues have locked down some of those journals and just like you know, how in some of our, you know, media is being locked down, especially in Canada, you know, you're not allowed to get some media stations in Canada right now. You know, they lock down some of the information. So some of those journal articles are not allowed in some of those journal places where they may be more readily acceptable than other ones.

But in the meantime, this research is available online. I mentioned some of the studies. You have lots of other studies that have already been done on your end, on, on your website. And I say, guys, there's just a preponderance of evidence that there's something going on here. We have mechanisms of action, lots of them actually, whether it's structured water or it's urea or it's these immunomodulatory properties. So which one is it? Probably all of them. Just like if you say, well, what causes bread? That's a dumb question. You have to have a recipe and you need, you know, flour, water, yeast, salt and heat and all those things in the right order at the right time and then something happens. So is urine therapy working because of one thing? We have no reason to believe it's only because of one thing. And it might be because of 10 things, and it might be because of two things. But that's what science is for, is help us figure out, you know, how do we distill this? The cute dad joke there for, for the, the most effective dose, the most effective way of using it. And because people hear pee and they think, ooh, gross. I think a lot of times we just don't. We stop thinking at that point. And I just want to thank you for doing the hard work of thinking and doing something that's difficult because like you said, if people are automatically triggered by it and you're saying this is what I'm going to study, it almost means you have to do extra good science to overcome people's just built in biases. So thank you.

Right, you're welcome. And the international community of Shivambu is working on a database. So that presently so that all those different informations from all over the world can be in one database so that people don't have to do the deep dark dig and all over these things to find out good information that is relatively available. And so podcasts like yours and other, you know, as we can get more information out there and information isn't as locked down as it used to be. It. It's changing the world, I think it is.

And there's so much more knowledge from our ancient practices to be unlocked. And end of the day, biohacking is about changing the environment around you and inside of you so you have control of your own biology. And we do it via any means necessary. So I don't care if it's gross, I don't care if it's pharmaceutical. I don't care if it looks stupid. If it works and it gets me results, to live longer, to be more conscious, to have a brain that works better. The things that I care about, I'm going to talk about them and I'll keep doing them unless there's evidence that there's harm or that there's something that works better. And just that curiosity with a goal, It's. It's pretty liberating because if instead you're stuck in that, I'm only going to do things that aren't triggering to me, and I'm only going to go do things where there's a bunch of studies that say this one thing works. You're the kind of person who is still eating tablespoons of flour instead of eating bread because you have to find the recipe for you and biohacking's around. Let's try all the ingredients and see what happens and back off a little bit. So maybe urine therapy or shivambu is for you, and maybe it's not, but it's worth knowing it exists. So thank you again, Darlene, for your research.

Thank you, Dage.

If you guys like this episode, you know what to do. Go pee on a friend. Okay. Not really. Pee on yourself. Okay. Not really. Pee in a little jar and let it sit for two weeks and then stick it up your. Okay, well, you know what I was going to say. So in other words, give it a try. Be curious. Or don't. Either way, you're still a good person. Probably. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.

A Human Upgrade, formerly bulletproof radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of of diagnosing, treating, curing or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider carefully, read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by by Bulletproof Media.