Psychedelic Upgrade: Finding the Right Dose & Approach – Dr. Phil Wolfson & Dr. Julie Holland : 960

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey, formerly Bulletproof Radio, A state of High performance. Today's special episode format features two different experts sharing knowledge about a single subject that I've chosen because I think it can make a big difference in the quality of your life, your energy, or maybe even the length of your life. Across about a thousand episodes of Biohacking, I've brought those topics to you for upgrading physical, emotional, mental energy, even spiritual energy. And now I'm putting some special guests together in shorter episodes to introduce you to the topic in a broad way in a very small amount of time. So you can go deeper if you want to, but at least you've got the knowledge. Of course, I'm also going to give you the full episode links and more resources so you can go deep, but you don't have to go deep. This is about knowing something exists and then choosing what you want to put your attention on. Just go to daveasprey.com podcast to check it out. Enjoy the show. Today's guest is a psychiatrist and psychopharmacologist named Dr. Julie Holland. And she's researched throughout her career drug dangers, drug use, mdma, cannabis and psychedelics. You've also seen her on the Today Show, Good Morning America, CNN, Dr. Oz, Vice, NPR, and a long list of other places where world class experts would show up, including Bulletproof Radio. She's got a new book called Good Chemistry, the Science of Connection From Soul to Psychedelics. And she looks at the science of connection, why we need it, how we've lost it, and how we might even find it again. Julie, how was that introduction?

Let's talk about that. I think that sounds like a fine introduction.

It's been a long time since you were on the show. You were on episode 231. We talked about hacking orgasms, medical ecstasy, antidepressants and how to get off of them, and why women need testosterone. So it's been 600 episodes thereabouts. So I know you've done a lot of work since then and so have I. So it's time for us to get caught up on all kinds of fun stuff, including mdma, because it's changed a lot and maybe we could get started there. Where are you on the subject of MDMA now?

Well, I am now where I've always been since 1985, which is that. Boy, this would be a very useful tool for psychiatry.

Today is going to be a really, really good interview because we're going to get into psychedelics today. And Our guest is Dr. Phil Wolfson, the creator of a new approach to psychotherapy based on ketamine called Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy. And if you're a longtime listener, about a hundred episodes ago, I went and I did ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy down in San Diego and talked about it. And Phil, though, is the guy who made it happen. He's the CEO of the nonprofit Ketamine Research Foundation. He spent many decades doing clinical psychiatry and psychotherapy. We're going to talk about what he's done, how he got there, and he's also a journalist and author of a lot of articles on transformation, politics, psychedelics, consciousness and spirit. So we'll get a little bit out there today. But remember, ketamine is a legal, widely available substance not subject to the same regulatory problems as some of the other things like LSD or mushrooms or even mdma, all of which are making progress as chemicals that can be used for healing, even though they could also be used for other things. Dr. Wolfson, or Phil, as I'll call you, welcome to the show.

My pleasure indeed, Dave, thanks for having me.

Why ketamine?

Well, ketamine is originally an anesthetic and an analgesic put together off of PCP analog research in the late 1960s. And when it first was being used, Edward Domino, who's the inventor of it, saw that people coming out of high dosages of ketamine were having what he called emergent effects, and they were having psychedelic experiences. And unfortunately, because he didn't know what to do with that and people weren't being supported in it, there were people who really had trouble with the substance. Ketamine got very widespread use throughout the world as an anesthetic for veterinarian work. It's called a horse tranquilizer, all of that. And it's a very, very safe substance. So it doesn't cause respiratory suppression, for example, so that people on the battlefield who were wounded or injured, the army, the Marine Corps uses it for sedation and for quick anesthesia doesn't suppress respiration, so its safety became renowned. It's still in widespread use in anesthesia, analgesia. But of course, people in the psychedelic realm are always searching, as you probably know. They're always wondering, what's around the corner? What have we found? And so some notice came to the emergent syndrome, and a certain person, Salvador Roquette, was no longer with us and was a very renowned Mexican psychiatrist, but renowned for doing very difficult things. And he became renowned for using ketamine as one tool in his toolbox you.

Know, good therapy takes years, and it's like peeling an onion. And then people get. It's like appealing an onion if the onion were defensive and ran away every once in a while. Right. It's not even as simple as peeling an onion.

Best description of psychiatry I've ever heard of, by the way. I think you just, like, broke the.

Internet with that one if the onion stopped answering your calls for six months every once in a while because you got too close to something. So there is. There's a lot of defensiveness and fear built into good psychotherapy because it is sort of like surgery where you're trying to dig down and get to these malignant things that are causing problems that need to be removed and examined. But it's like surgery without anesthesia, right? To dig down to these malignancies. So I think of MDMA as sort of. It's like adding. Adding the anesthesia or adding the secret sauce that allows the therapy to go deeper and to be more efficient and more effective and also more comfortable. You know, it's. It's painful digging up trauma, and you can be scared and you can be retraumatized and you can cry. So for. To take a chemical that sort of dampens the amygdala response, so you're not as fearful and increases serotonin, so you're not as anxious, and very importantly, increases oxytocin. So you feel more trusting and connected and more bonded with the person who's doing the therapy. So that's an important piece of the puzzle, right? It enhances the therapeutic alliance, that. That sense that the therapist and client are working together towards something. So that combination. And then also, of course, mdma, methylene dioxy, methamphetamine, right? It's sort of a cousin to methamphetamine or amphetamine. So you've got that stimulant base. People are awake, alert, they want to talk, they want to connect, they want to dig. And they've got really good recall, not just for the trauma, which is really important, but for the session itself. Right? I mean, sometimes you may think you've got these great insights. I think nitrous oxide is a great example for my experiences with nitrous is. I think I've discovered this amazing thing. And then I come out and the sand kind of goes through my fingers, and I'm like, I don't know what I had. But with mdma, you really remember the session. You remember the processing of the trauma, and you're also going to remember the trauma. A bit differently because while you process the trauma, you are feeling at ease and comfortable and courageous. So it's a chance to sort of reformulate and reintegrate the trauma and also just like, have a measure of acceptance and equanimity. Like, yes, this terrible thing happened to me, but it wasn't my fault. I didn't cause it. But I'm not going to reject it anymore. I'm going to integrate it into the full picture of who I am. So that's a very long answer of saying that I have, I have unwavered in my belief that MDMA will be really a disruptive technology to the field of psychiatry and potentially even fields outside of psychiatry. Because as you and I know, the mind and the body, they're very much connected. We often sort of work through traumas with physical symptoms. So yes, it will help post traumatic stress disorder, but it also, I think anytime you've got very rigid thinking, right, which you would have, say, like, let's say anorexia, you know, you're convinced you're fat even though everyone else is telling you you're too thin, or addiction, you know, you keep going for a certain substance because you want a certain feeling. And even though you're really not getting what you want, you keep going there over and over. So there's this rigidity of thought. And so what we need in psychiatry is something that sort of creates a more fluid sense of self that isn't so rigid, that maybe opens things up. And that's where I think not only mdma, but now you should talk about psilocybin, lsd, ayahuasca, psychedelics.

You're kind of the ketamine guy.

No, I'm really the psychedelic psychotherapy guy. What I really do is work with people, human beings in psychotherapy, substances are adapted to the individual or couple or group to enable them to reach new places of connecting, loving, caring place to work out PTSD, depression. And during the 80s, along with Sasha Shulgin, I was doing in a large group of the people who were talking about psychedelic psychotherapy, primarily using MDMA before it became illegal in 86, I wrote about it and we did a lot of things with couples with depression with ptsd. So I'm labeled a ketamine guy because I wrote the book, the third book, and I'm espousing it because it's legal as an assisted psychotherapy. I'm all about psychotherapy. These are tools in the toolbox that we embrace and each has particular properties and we try and create psychotherapy around those properties.

Having known so many people with ptsd, how do you know which of these psychedelics is the right one to use for a specific patient?

There's really no right or wrong with psychedelics. They have special properties. For instance, the property of ketamine that's most useful is it's a timeout. So here you are, Dave, talking to me and you get in the proper setting, you get ready for it, and we've done a lot of work on who you are and how you suffer. And we administer the ketamine either by injection or we train people how to use it under the mouth where it's absorbed through the lining of the mouth. People then go through either a low dose or moderate to high dose experience. That experience is separated from your life here. So if you're a very depressed person over here and you go through the ketamine experience where you have ego dissolution, where you aren't in touch with your body in the same way, where you're involved with a visual stream and commentary on the visual stream, you're separated from ordinary mind. And then the real work is the integration as people come back. How am I different? What have I learned from this? Oh, I noticed I wasn't depressed in.

That like any sort of psychotropic or psychedelic. Right. Which means mind manifesting. I mean, I have a sort of big umbrella for psychedelic. I, I, it's, to me, it's not just, you know, mushrooms and acid. I would also include cannabis and MDMA under that because they are mind manifesting, they are mind revealing, they are mind expanding.

What about Modafinil?

I think Modafinil helps some people focus. Every once in a while I get somebody who likes it more than a regular stimulant, but not that often.

It makes, at least for me, it makes me more able to do more. Everything is effortless and including mindfulness. But you could just take that and play ping pong with it, or you could be mindful. But when you're being mindful, you got more mind to be mindful with.

Yeah, I mean, to me, like when you're really talking about something that's mind expanding, it's almost like there needs to be a quieting or a contraction of the ego. Right. And the small self and the self that wants to achieve and do that. When you're really expanding, you get out of this sort of yang type behavior and into something more receptive and sort of yin, where you don't have boundaries. And the other thing I would mention, as long as we're talking about ADD meds and stimulants and modafinil is. I would also make a plug for cbd, which I think it doesn't have the sort of edginess and the pushiness of the stimulants, but it does lend sort of a calm focus. So what I recommend for my patients is that they have whole plant strains that are high in CBD but do have THC in them. And I do think that it can. I use CBD quite a bit. For instance, when I was writing Moody Bitches, it really helped me maybe the way that modafinil sort of helps you, like, get her done, you know.

Can you talk about just psychedelics in general and addiction?

Yeah, sure. It's a very controversial topic. Ketamine heads lists right now about, you know, causing addiction. It's dependent. So ketamine uses overused. They use large amounts of it and what they're doing is getting out of here. So they get used to getting out of here. I had connection a little bit with John Lilly, who was the most famous of ketamine dependent people. So. And he was shooting up all the time. He had weeping scars on his legs. We would see him in Esalen. Terrible. He missed life. So that's the point of ketamine dependence is missing life. But we have all kinds of dependency. We don't talk about it. We have MDMA dependency. We have people who use MDMA very, very frequently, though. You can't use it too contiguously because the effect is lost. But, you know, we have overuse of that. We have, you know, almost any of the substances though psychedelics are truly safe and ketamine is truly safe unless you use very high dosages. We'll have people who get into it and they get into it hard and deep. So in the clinical practices that were evolving like MAPs and USONA and R groups, we're really careful about prescription. We have never had a ketamine dependent person yet. We've had one or two who want to become ketamine dependent to get out of here every day. But we haven't. We don't. We don't allow that. And the whole point is not getting out of here. It's getting out of here, coming back and leading your life. So you were talking about Buddhism and spiritual practice. It's about how do we integrate our lives and religious relationship in this very difficult time with people and in our beings.

You know, one of the things I talk about in good chemistry a little bit, and I do in my private practice too Is that, like, everybody has their own sort of proprietary blend of chemistry and what works for them, what feels good to them. And it doesn't really make a lot of sense, you know, to try to convince somebody to take this other thing if they're like, yeah, but this works. So, you know, I will often. I mean, that's. Harm reduction is all about sort of taking somebody where they are and accepting like, okay, I get this works for you, and I'm going to, you know, work with you, but let's. Let's see if we can, you know, shift it ever so slightly. One interesting issue for the sort of sciencey nerds in. In your audience that I talk about in Good Chemistry. There's a researcher named Gul Dolan who had a paper in Nature that was really fascinating where she. She sort of theorizes that one of the things MDMA does is it is it puts the brain in this very sort of plastic state, this neuroplastic state that is similar to how neuroplastic our brains were when we were adolescents. Right. So one of the things that happens in adolescence is that it's a time of sort of integrating a lot of social cues and figuring out what your pattern places socially. And as an adolescent, we care a lot about social cues. Right. You care whether your friends think you're cool or think you're a jerk or rolling their eyes or smirking at you. But in this highly plastic state, it's a chance to sort of reimpress and rework some of that circuitry. So I'm very interested in neuroplasticity. I imagine your listeners are too.

It's one of the two big core things. Have more energy and be more neuroplastic equals younger brain.

Yeah.

Okay.

So a lot of these psychedelics really do enhance neuroplasticity.

Can you talk about why you started the Ketamine Research Foundation? And I'd love to talk about some of those projects, starting with end of life and hospice work.

Well, there's a virtue in ketamine being legal or semi legal. The virtue is we don't have to go through fda, so all the machinations that Maps has to go through and the amounts of money or for psilocybin to become legal, we don't have to do. So we can do IRB and independent review board supervision of our work, and we could create projects that demonstrate the benefits of ketamine as a psychedelic medicine or as a medicine. And so that's what I saw. I saw that we could extend the range of Understanding of how the medicine works into multiple realms, that we could do both treatment and understand better how to do treatment. But we did it. We just finished a study on the presence of ketamine in breast milk in a formal IRB study. So why is that interesting? Because women with postpartum depression or other forms of postpartum disorders, they have to stop breastfeeding or they have to make an onerous choice to continue breastfeeding and take Prozac or one of its relatives because they're depressed. And so we, before we started a postpartum study, which we will do with ketamine, we wanted to know, is ketamine, what's its concentration in breast milk? What are infants, normal neonates exposed to? And we're just about to publish, we're writing it up, and ketamine allows women, and we will show that, to be able to continue to breastfeed with a small lapse. And it's episodic use. So rather than bathing myself as a woman in a substance I have to take all the time, like an antidepressant, I can do episodic work with probably the best antidepressant that we have in a psychotherapeutic context. So that was one project.

What a gift. Wow, that's fantastic. So they need to stop breastfeeding for a day or something.

Hours. It'll be hours.

You know, the first chapter, good chemistry. I just tell people, like, get in your body, become embodied, feel your body, you know, and you have to put the phone down or close a laptop to really get embodied and be in your body. And so maybe you have to really get off your screens to. To feel whether you're in sympathetic or parasympathetic. But what I, you know, if I start reading too much of the news, I can feel myself shifting. You know, good morning. I'm calm, I'm reading this and that. And then as I'm getting more news, you know, I feel like my heart rate's going up and my breathing is getting a little uneven, and my hands are getting a little sweaty and clenchy, and I'm starting to get angry. And like, this, this is bad for my body. The news is bad for me physically. I. I have to stop.

Let's talk about macro dosing versus microdosing, because so many people are reaching out to me, asking about that, and they're fundamentally different. So I want you to explain the differences, but especially focus on the differences around the therapeutic benefit.

So a microdose is basically one tenth of a macrod.

Right? Now your body might be wasting energy on stress instead of healing. That's why your gut feels off, your brain feels dull, and your immune system keeps letting you down. What if you could switch your healing state back on? Without meds, stimulants or guesswork, Vibrant Blue Oil's parasympathetic essential oil blend is a powerful, non invasive way to activate your nervous system and shift your body into healing healing mode just through scent. A drop behind your ears can help switch off your stress response, calm inflammation and support digestion, detox and immune function. And it can even help clear up your stubborn brain fog. It's natural, easy to use, and thousands of happy customers already love it. And right now, the Human Upgrade podcast listeners can grab a full size bottle for over 50% off off@vibrantblue oils.com Dave that's vibrantblueoils.com Dave don't wait to start feeling like yourself again. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.

So a microdose is basically 1/10 of a Macrodose. So let's say if you had dried mushrooms, you would maybe take 3, 3 grams or 4 grams, or if you're feeling quite heroic, you might take 5 grams. But a macro dose is basically a tenth, say of the 3 grams. So it'd be like 300 milligrams or even 200 milligrams. The point is with microdosing is that it's supposed to be sub threshold, sub perceptual, so you're not supposed to feel like you're tripping. You know, the, the joke that I make is if, is if the words on the page are swimming, then it's not a microdose, right? The words have to not move. So, so you figure out what your dose is. You know, whether it's 100 milligrams or 200 milligrams, where you don't feel it, but it is in your system. So, and then for LSD, like a sort of classic LSD dose would be maybe 100 micrograms. So a microdose would be 10. So a microdose is about a tenth of a macrodose. And, and there's a couple different protocols. You can either take it every three or four days, or there are some protocols where you take it five days on, two days off. The reason why you wait and take it every three or four days is so that you don't become tolerant to it. So people are microdosing for all kinds of reasons. I think initially, I think some people Were looking at it for focus and productivity and it seemed like it was very helpful for that. And then other people were looking at it for creativity, where you can get a little bit loose for and make sort of looser associations, which is associated with enhanced creativity. Again, this idea of rigidity versus fluidity and opening things up a little bit. So it could be used for depression or anxiety or add. I mean, everybody seems to have a reason why microdosing is helpful. And then the other issue is that it's also. These are anti inflammatory, right? So psilocybin, lsd, I mean DOI we know for sure is like sort of the most anti inflammatory doi. It's not commonly used.

We have lots and lots of people who want to help people who are suffering and the suffering is growing. The COVID suffering is monstrous. But the suffering of global climate change and immigration and displacement and drought and all the rest, when you look worldwide, it's beyond the scope of our capacity to even realize it so far. So we're trying to enter the fray by saying people like yourself may want to be a facilitator. Others who aren't necessarily psychotherapists can be come into the program and be facilitators of small groups. We're supporting it. They're free to participants will give a stipend to the group leader. Whether they're in Kenya or they're in Buffalo, New York. Everyone gets 100 bucks a session. And we're raising money for it because we really think that the coalition building and the generalization of group formats that encourage connection, love and sharing and healing through expression, because people are so trapped in Covid. I mean, that's really the issue. They're trapped. And so by even on the zoom level, bringing people together weekly is a great way to help people share to some extent, to begin to open their doors. That's our big new project, which I'm very proud of.

These are early days. You know, again, this is potentially a disruptive technology, a disruptive way of treating things. You know, in psychiatry we have the daily dose. You know, you take your antidepressant or your antianxiety medicine every single day for years. And the truth is that these medicines weren't really designed to be used for decades and they weren't really studied to be taken for decades. But that's what's happened, you know, ever since Prozac was developed, I think in, in 88, you know, and since like the mid to late 80s, people have been taking more and more antidepressants, anti anxiety Meds, sleeping pills. The numbers are just going up and up. 911 was a huge increase. It seemed like a lot of people gave themselves permission to start taking things like Xanax or Ambien or Klonopin at that time. So, you know, we had the mid-90s where they all of a sudden started to do direct to consumer advertising. So that was a big jump. And then 911 was another huge jump. And then I would say, now that Covid is going to be another big jump. You know, in March or April, I had pharmacies saying that they were running out of Xanax or, or Klonopin. They couldn't get my patients, you know, oh, we don't have any 1 milligram. Can you. Can you prescribe 2 milligram and break them in half? Like, you know, they were. The Xanax was flying off the shelves.

Wow.

So I think that we are definitely seeing an uptick in how people are soothing themselves. But on the flip side is that we are seeing an uptick in people trying different ways of treating their unrest. And whether they're using macro doses or microdoses or they're, you know, maybe finding an ayahuasca circle to go to, there are all kinds of options, more than ever before. And eventually those options are going to work their way into mainstream psychiatry, mainstream medicine, because these work better. You know, they're more effective and they're more efficient.

So interested is a worldwide. It's a universal concept. You and me and our listeners, each of us is a point of light, and we have internal reflection and we have external reflection, and we're all connected. And lights come in all kinds of capacities. Some lights are dim, some lights are out, some lights are vibrant. And we want to light up lights in connection. So Indrasnet is about connection. It's about forming a network that, that exists because we're all connected, but we're kind of stupid about our connections. Kind of narrowly narcissistic. Right, Right. So. And we don't see our origins. We forget about the. The guy who raised the cow that you eat. I'm a vegetarian. Or the tofu I eat. You know, we forget about our dependence. And so Indusnet is about winking. And so you can find it on Academy and Research foundation website, which is what it sounds like, what it is, or Indra's Net Coalition. And thank you for offering to help us with that.

Of course. I'll put a link in the show, notes for followers. And your definition of that's really, really beautiful.

I'VE always been energetic. But losing a child and going through four years of an illness and watching a ferocious struggle for life. Noah struggled to live every minute. He wouldn't talk about dying, he could only talk about living. And the treatment was awful. He ended up dying after a bone marrow transplant at Swedish. His condition, because he was diagnosed late, was much less statistically possible for his survival. And this occurred in 1984. It died in 1988. And I was around a lot of families of kids who were dying. So I think, you know, I went through a long PTSD period in which I worked, but I was still struggling to recover. We got divorced. It was, you know, and then I had a surviving son who you've met, he's a world champion. And all my effort was turned to making his life sweet, you know, to help him through the trauma. And so, you know, I became more in touch personally with trauma and how people suffer in my particular format. But I've always been sensitive to other people's suffering. And, you know, you have Marineuron School horror, I have Mirror Neuron school war. And so, you know, why not? What better do I have to do? I'm not going to play golf. And one of the great, great things still is I can still learn. At 77, I have an infinite amount to learn.

I love that. And I have one final question for you, Julie. If you could recommend only three things for a person to gain more sense of connection in their life right now, what are the top three?

Anything that enhances oxytocin. Hugging, eye contact, orgasm is lovely. So any. Anything that would increase oxytocin, I'd say is number one. And I'm actually going to put cannabis as number two because I am a big proponent. I know, I know. I'm going out on a limb here. For me, cannabis really helps me get in my body and become embodied and become very aware of sort of where I am in physical space and my kinesthetic awareness and my posture, things like that. But it also really helps me feel connected to nature when I go outside. If I have had cannabis, I feel just sort of more in tune with nature and more a part of nature. And I don't know what I would put as number three. I mean, you know, I, I. Because mdm, you know, the thing about cannabis is, like, you pretty much know what pot looks like. There's not a lot of rampant drug substitution. There's, you know, there's not a lot of counterfeit cannabis going around and a lot of people live in places a lot of people live in places where they can go to a dispensary and. And get cannabis. So I. You can't really say that for mdma. Like, I think MDMA really enhances connection. But I can't tell people, you know, go out there and get MDMA because Lord knows what they're going to get and it could really be dangerous. So I, that's why I'm having a little bit of trouble of what to put at number three. But I guess I would say to put yourself in the parasympathetic mode because you're not open to connection. If you're in fight or flight, you are closed down in fight or Flight. You know, the example I like to give is like, if you, if you have a fire in your kitchen, you are totally focused on, like, where's the fire extinguisher? Get out of here. I got to put this fire away. You're not. You don't pick up the phone to chat with somebody. You're not nice to your neighbor. You're not sweet suite with your kid. You know, you've got something to do. And you're very closed in on that one thing. And your social skills, I would say when you're in fight or flight are so you want. You want to be in parasympathetic so that you are open to connection or it's not going to happen.

Is philwolfsonmd.com the best place people can go to find out about your world?

Go to the Academy Research Foundation. Everything is linked. Yeah.

Okay. And that's a dot com. Ketamineresearchfoundation.com, i'll put the links in the show notes and on the blog and.

Yoursnatcoalition.Org those two, they're all linked. Everything's linked.

Everything's linked. Beautiful, Phil. Keep learning. Have a wonderful next many, many more decades of changing awesome things. I appreciate you.

You too. Thank you so much. Thank you.

I would suggest that you consider, if it's within your means, making a small donation to one of the nonprofits that Phil's working with. Because, you know, guys, guys like Phil are doing good work in the world. That can have a big ripple effect. And it's one thing if you help one person, but when you train someone to help many people, it's so much more amplified. So if you're in the mood to donate $10, $20, something like that, if you can, it's a good move. And certainly I will be making a donation as well. Julie, thank you for being back, I think it might have been too long. We always have these amazing conversations. I feel like we could go for another hour and talk about cool stuff, but we're at the end of the show.

Thank you for having me.

Hope you enjoyed this episode. And as always, if you read Good Chemistry, you have a moral obligation to leave a review when you're done reading it. See you next time you're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey Human Upgrade.

A Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider carefully read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany company the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.