ReWild Yourself! with Daniel Vitalis– Podcast #141

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Today's cool fact of the day is that in 1859, the fossil of a 420-year-old mushroom was found, and it was called the Prototaxites. The mushroom laying down was 3 feet tall, but if it had been standing, it would have been about 30 feet tall. We don't know, but I like to imagine that it was red Red with white dots on the top. That voice laughing in the background was none other than Daniel Vitalis, who is a leading health, nutrition, and personal development strategist and calls himself a nature-based philosopher, one of the guys behind this amazing website called findaspring.com where you can go to find actually clean spring water, which has a different effect on your body. Most people have never had the pleasure of actually drinking out of a spring right out of the ground because we're all afraid that we're going to get some sort of weird parasite, but when it's actually a spring, that's not going to happen, and it does taste amazing. That's one of the reasons you go backpacking. You also may have heard of surthrival.com, which is a brand that Daniel's created, which talks about rewilding and has a lot of really amazing herbal preparations. And I believe there's a book in the pipeline, and we'll let Daniel talk about that. So Daniel, welcome to the show, man.

Hey, thank you for having me, Dave. Really good to be here with you.

Now I hear crickets in the background. Now is that a laptop fan or is that actually a cricket?

That's actually crickets. Yeah, I couldn't get them to pipe down for the morning, but I am in Maine. I do live in the forest and—

I was going to ask if you're eating them. I don't mind that there's a cricket in the forest. I live in the forest too. I was just thinking you had like a bucket of them you were going to eat for breakfast with a spoon.

Yeah, no, I don't like having them in my teeth during my interview.

Do you eat crickets?

I'm definitely getting into entomophagy. Crickets haven't been my favorite thing, but I've been playing with dragonflies and June bugs, actually. Nice. That has been sort of on my radar. But crickets, I think, would be— I've been really toying with raising crickets, actually, as sort of a project, kind of get my own genetic strain going.

That is fascinating and interesting and not where I thought we'd start talking. June bugs, wow. I mean, I've had my share share of termites out of the mound. And Mexican grasshopper tacos were fantastic. I ate those recently in the Bay Area with some illegally imported grasshoppers, apparently. I was offended personally. But that's awesome. So if you come up with a super muscular strain of crickets, I think you could have cricket wings. There's a whole thing going on there.

All right. On it.

What is rewilding, Daniel?

So rewilding is a word that I've turned on to human beings but is being used in a lot of different contexts. Usually it's being used in reference to different ecosystems. So we hear about the rewilding of Europe, for instance, which is a project to bring back some of the animals, the flora, the fauna that were there prior to the Neolithic Revolution. But not a lot of people have turned the idea on to humans themselves. There's a big taboo humans have against exploring their own wild nature. But the term rewild, it means, I have it actually here, rewild, a verb, means to restore to its natural uncultivated state. So as I see it, you know, the word rewilding has an antonym, and that'd be domesticated. And domesticated means, like domicile, the word domestic, that same word as domicile refers to a house, domesticated means of the house. And for about 6,000 to 10,000 years, human beings have been not only domesticating plants and domesticating animals, maybe inadvertently we domesticated ourselves. And here's the crux of the whole thing and the important piece and why I'm into this idea of rewilding. We understand that the lettuces we eat, let's say romaine lettuce, we understand that's not a natural organism anymore. That's a domesticated human biological artifact that's drawn out of the wild lettuce, Lactuca serriola, and we've created Lactuca sativa, the domestic version. But we know that the dog is a gray wolf, but it's the domesticated subspecies, Canis lupus familiaris, and the wild animal is the gray wolf. My postulation is this: human beings as we exist today, or I like to call us the moderns— moderns— are not actually Homo sapiens, but we're a subspecies that is domesticated. So I call us Homo sapiens domesticofragilis, this fragile domestic Homo sapiens subspecies.

I thought you were going to say Homo sapiens wussicus or something.

Well, basically, yeah, so I wanted to— actually, I wanted to use Latin that was correct, basically. So I actually played with that for a while, and I have a friend, Arthur Haynes, who's a taxonomist, and together we've kind of built this, this theory out, which started as a joke but has actually become quite serious, because if you apply the parameters of domestication to humans, you see that we certainly are. We're less robust and more gracile in our bodies, so we're We're leaner and thinner and smaller. We carry neotenous or childlike characteristics into adulthood, like shaved legs and bald pubic hair. We mate and breed in captivity. We eat a diet of domesticated foods. So we are a domestic subspecies. Now, that means there's a wild form of humans, and those would be the indigenous people that still live in these little isolated pockets, like over in New Guinea. Parts of Africa, parts of South America, parts of India, and a few islands where there are still fully wild humans, Stone Age wild human beings. And the news is this: they're healthier than us, they're stronger than us, they're more fit than us in a lot of ways. And unfortunately, we are literally at the brink of the most monumental moment in human history, the extinction of the wild form of humans. It's about to happen. No one's talking about it, and we will lose the strength of our gene pool in the process, right? We'll be kind of left in the shallow end. So this idea of rewilding is, hey, yo, we gotta wake up to this a little bit and start figuring out how we can reawaken. It's in our genes still. It's in our DNA. It's in our genome. Just like it's good to take your dog and sort of encourage behaviors, dietary practices, and things like that that are reminiscent of the wolf because it makes them healthier, We need the same thing for us, and that's human rewilding.

So, all right, this might be a tough question, and maybe you've heard it before, but you were talking about changing human DNA. Are you talking about like crossbreeding wild humans with non-wild humans? So isn't that going to like dilute the wild genes with our wuss genes, our fragilest genes?

Nice, you got the lingo down. I like it. So I'm not actually saying that. I think that I mean, yeah, if I could, that would be eugenics, right? If I could sort of—

That's where I'm like, I don't, you know, eugenics is bad. We all agree.

Okay, just a guy up in Maine, that's not what I'm up to. Yeah, uh, no, but I do think, you know, if you think about humans, see, one of the challenging things about talking about this, there is nothing politically incorrect about saying that's a greyhound, that's a dachshund, that's a sheepdog. We're just super comfortable with that, and we use the term breed to denote those different variants of the subspecies of the domestic wolf or the dog. Humans fall into similar categories. We typically, we used to call races, but now it's really, that's all really delicate, right? Nobody wants to go there. The word race is the same, it means the same thing as breed, which also means the same thing as subspecies. So it used to be a way of denoting that, hey, there's a sub-Saharan group of people that looks different and has different phenotype than a European version, than a South American version. We had names for that, and that all has gotten very confused and mixed in with race racism. So difficult to go there. But the point is, in our modern world, really only 3 variants are being represented well, right? We have the sort of the Afro-descended Black people, we call them. We have the white European people. We have the Asiatic people, used to be called the Mongolian or Mongoloid people, not really a term people use anymore. But those people are being well represented. But note how we don't see the Aboriginal, like walking down the streets of New York City or, you know, in Canada where you are. You don't typically run into somebody who's like, whoa, that's an Australian Aboriginal right there. Like, almost, they're almost extinct. And the same is true of the Kapoid, which are the Bushmen people of the Kalahari, which are almost like they're African descended, but they have some characteristics that are different than what we think of as black people. And one thing is their hair grows in what we call peppercorn formations, little, you know, almost like dots of hair. They have different genitals. You know that?

No, I had no idea.

They have— the men are always partially erect, and the women also have partially erect labia, and their whole clitoral network is partially engorged. Wow. So there's just— in the same way that we're comfortable saying, hey, there's differences in different breeds of dogs, or there's differences between a romaine lettuce and an iceberg lettuce, none is better than the other, they're just all variants. Similarly, there's variants in humans, but we're losing a lot of the diversity. I'm not saying, hey, we need to get a program going where we mix back in, but I do think— well, that might be nice, but I'm— my point is that it is the greatest genetic diversity lies with those Capoid people in Africa, actually. And as they are the closest to extinction, I just think it's a shame because so much of our genetic strength and memory, it resides in those peoples. And what we're going to be left with soon is This has happened with the cow, incidentally. The cow is— bovis taurus is the only extant member of its species. The wild cow has been extinct since the 1600s, so there's no way to go back and breed cows back with, you know, to get their strength back. We're left with these kind of sucky Holsteins.

Yeah, we're doing it with chickens, we're doing it with, with lamb, with all the good animals, like all the good hogs. It's terrible getting like a heritage breed hog to make bacon, it changes your life, man. Like, yeah, it's the good stuff. So it's just not the same. All right, so now we're saying we've screwed up our animals because we domesticated the crap out of them. We forgot what the wild ones look like, although those genes are still in there, they're just turned off, right? Like, we haven't lost the genes.

And there has been some interesting experiments trying to, to backbreed, it's called. The Nazis really got into this. It was some creepy weird stuff. They, they were trying their whole like master race concept. They thought, let's reverse engineer cows back into aurochs, and that will show that our theory works. So they tried it.

I did not know this.

You're full of cool stuff. Yeah, this is some interesting stuff. They worked with these two guys called the Heck brothers, and out of that came— I always say, what the heck— out of that came the Heck cattle. What they did was they selected cows that had the most characteristics, most similar characteristics to the aurochs, the bigger, more muscular, more front-pointing horns, all that. They ended up with a really interesting breed of animals called Heck cattle, which look like mini aurochs almost, the wild cow. But basically what was learned is through breeding techniques, we don't know how to reverse engineer, although with new emerging genetic techniques perhaps. There's definitely a movement towards rewilding some wild landscapes, but I just think it's something we need to start talking about and start looking at as a species is, hey, it's not just everything else that's domesticated, it's us too. And domestication doesn't typically bring forth better qualities, it brings forth more dependent qualities, qualities dependent on the style of living that we're doing, which is the practice of husbandry or agriculture.

Well, you're treading into some definitely controversial territory there.

Yeah, right.

I mean, my first book, The Better Baby Book, I co-wrote it with my wife, Lana, and it's like, what are the things you can do in your environment around you to have the best genetic expression in your kids? And like, you and I agree, it's not eugenics. Like, the genes were there. Could you just make the good stuff turn on so that your kids will have healthier brains and better bones and skin and a straight jaw and all that kind of stuff? Right? Well, let's talk about this. Let's talk about raising kids. My kids are in a Waldorf school and I decided to do that because they spend 2 hours a day outdoors and I live in basically a cold rainforest up here on Vancouver Island. We just got enough land. They go outside, they can play. I'm a little concerned about like cougars eating them, but they can play as much as they want outside, and they do. They, you know, they come in just covered with bites and scratches and handfuls of berries that I've never eaten. Ever had a thimbleberry?

Yeah, they're awesome.

They're awesome, but like they disintegrate when you touch them. You could never sell a thimbleberry.

Raspberry mixed with strawberry almost.

Yeah, they're so delicious. Anna knows more. There's 7 kinds of berries growing in our backyard, and I only know 3 of them, but she knows all of them, and she's 7. I'm trying to bring that in, and of course we did the high fat, what would you eat if you really wanted kids to be healthy and all that sort of thing. Aren't we turning on those genes that are there? I've got a lot of Northern European stuff. My genes aren't that strong. I'm great as a marauder. I could go into a village, whack people. My blood will clot quickly so I can take a couple arrows and then, you know, give you the finger and, you know, throw your women over my shoulder and run away. Like, I think that's what my genes are optimized for.

Wow, Dave, you're— I gotta just— you're smart. You're a smart guy. Very few people even understand what you just articulated. Your breed was designed— your breed, like a greyhound's designed for running. Our— us European breeds are here for conquest and city building, right? And so we have a hard time sitting still because we're like— greyhound has a hard time sitting still, wants to run. We're bred to ambition, more, accomplish more, productivity, and we have a hard time even relaxing because we're like the terriers.

It's funny though because it changes even the way my immune system works. It's hyper-aggressive. It's like, "Yeah, you want to throw down?" In a modern domesticated world, it's actually not an advantage on that side of things because my blood's too sticky if I don't manage it carefully. Dave Asprey, and because I'm more sensitive to mold toxins in the environment, if you breathe them, I get a very fast inflammatory response. We know 28% of people have those genes, but those genes aren't just in Northern Europeans. They're more common, but Black people have those genes. You and I can sit down and go, "Oh, okay. Well, there's a lineage, a bloodline of aboriginals or of First Nations people up here in Canada." We can go back 100 generations or however long oral things take us and we could look genetically, but what about the rest of us who are carrying my 4.5% Neanderthal, which 23andMe told me? How do I turn those on and off in myself or in my kids or my grandkids? There's got to be ways to do this because this is part of rewilding because I'm honestly— it doesn't make sense for me to send my wife to go mate with aboriginals somewhere in order to bring the genes back. Like, it's not going to happen.

I want to be clear, that's not what I'm— I'm not suggesting that.

You're not, but okay, so what's the next best thing? What do we do here?

All right, well, I just want to go back to the eugenics piece and say eugenics was always done from the top down on people, and that is, I think, a horrific thing, right? And typically it was very— it was actually— it was flipped around from rewilding. The idea was that we were trying to make this super domesticated race and actually wipe out all the wild people, which is stupid. So stupid, right? So it's like, it's like as if Chihuahuas are the best and Chihuahuas get rid of, you know, every other type of dog.

You just compared Nazis to Chihuahuas, which is hilarious. But okay, I buy that.

So, um, and then they wanted to try to control it top-down. So I think that we need to flip this idea and say, hey, Let's empower the individual to take the steps they want to take, and let's let this thing sort itself out like that, right? Because that's what we're all— we're all taking these practices and we're putting them into play. I don't think— I don't know how novel any of these rewilding ideas really are for your audience, but essentially, one of the ways that we're going to do— well, you're talking about epigenetics and the idea that basically everything we're doing is training for our genome, right? Every single— literally sitting in front of Skype right now is training our— we'd have kids that were better at Skyping, right? If we were to contribute to the gene pool today because we're doing it now. Whatever we're doing. I think what it really comes down to is looking at our lifestyle and saying, "How can we bring as much of what is natural to our species back in and still live our modern lives?" Here's how I would break it down. I say, imagine you take a chimpanzee, pull him out of the jungle, and you're going to bring him home to live in North America. How do you— what's your interest? Is it in keeping that animal healthy, living a long productive life? If so, you'd set up habitat that resembled as much as possible those natural settings. The last thing you would do is rent an apartment, stick the ape in there, get it like, here's some Uncle Ben's and some, you know, Cup O' Noodle, here's TV, remote, sit them on a La-Z-Boy chair and have them drink chlorinated water and take pharmies. I mean, you just that we all know what would happen. We're trying to do that to ourselves, and it's actually destroying us, so much so that I think we could almost say we've halted our adaptation and evolution, because what's killing people now is degenerative disease. You don't degenerate and evolve at the same time. It's like kind of one way or the other. They're antonyms. So if people are dying of degenerative diseases, that means that most people are no longer sort of making progress. The changes have happened so rapidly, they're cascading downward. Now, some of us are halting that and making a movement forward. I call that rewilding. It sounds like you call it biohacking. We all have our way of determining, calling it, or whatever our paradigm is. But what we're doing is we're all trying to get that movement happening again where we're adapting at a pace that's sustainable. But if we don't set up— right now what we're living in is a human factory farm. It's a factory farm. Yeah, well, what— and the purpose of a farm, remember, is never the animal's health health, happiness, well-being, longevity. It's about getting maximum productivity at whatever expense with the knowledge that you'll end that animal's life shortly. You're not interested in the— you know, a chicken can live 12 years, let's say, but we end their lives at 2. So we're not interested in the longevity. We are not going to go back to the wild tomorrow. Sorry, it's not even there anymore. So we need something else. We need a human zoo. A zoo is a place where you keep the animal there for maximum health for maximum expression of wild behavior, for preservation of its genetics, for research, for understanding, for learning, and you're interested in that animal being as healthy as possible. So you recreate habitat, recreate diets so that everything is as similar to the wild as possible, even though it's an approximation. What we're living in is a world where we're born in captivity, we're snipped and cut right at birth, we're traumatized, we're indoctrinated, we're brainwashed, we have our sensory gating aperture shut down, shut down, and then we produce product, services, and taxation money nonstop until we die prematurely. That's a factory farm for humans, and in fact, it's a monocrop, right? We're in a monoculture feedlot for humans. And so the rewilding idea is not like actually go back to the wild, because that will work for a handful of people, but not everybody. But we can start to say, okay, in my house, if this was the— I was going to bring a wild human here, what do I want to— how do I want to set it up? What do I want to be available for food, water, air, sunlight, movement, exercise? How do I want to set that up so that it's more like a zoo and less like a farm?

That's an amazing goal, and certainly the fact that the environment you're in really influences your cognitive and your physical performance is undeniable. Genetic performance. Yeah, genetic, that's true. If you feel like crap in a cubicle, It's normal to feel like crap in a cubicle. I spent so much of my life in them and I'm like, "I'm not doing this anymore. It's just not worth it." And is it the air? Is it the bad lighting? Is it the constant interruptions? Is it the bad coffee, bad food? All this stuff that's a part of 90% of people's working lives when they just go into these sealed office buildings, it has nothing to do with what life is supposed to be like. And you just wonder, "Maybe it's just me." And actually, no. Someone needs to break the windows and let air in.

And it's like the chicken in the feedlot, or the cow in the feedlot, or the chicken in the battery cages, who can sense, no doubt, that something— that the circumstances don't feel right, but because they have no experience of what the reality for chickens would be like, they can't ever conceive that what they're in is a prison. Similarly, if we don't have a way— and here's the thing. Our paradigm— I brought the definitions of wildness. I think they're really worth looking at for people. So my dictionary has 14 definitions for wild. The first one is untamed, undomesticated, and the second one is uncultivated, native, and indigenous. What follows are 12 definitions that scare the crap out of any good civilized Christian. Here they are: primitive, uncivilized, uncultured, savage, barbaric, barbarous, uninhabited, unpopulated, wasteland, desolate, barren, disheveled, tussled, tangled, uncontrolled, unrestrained, riotous, disorderly, unrestrained, and they just go on and on and on, disregardful of moral restraint or too much pleasurable indulgence, unrestrained by reason or prudence. So what we have is this intrinsic taboo. In order to maintain civilization in the way that it works now, you have to brainwash the people. And I'm not saying like that there are people up there making these decisions. I mean, whether it's that or it's collective, however it works, we have programmed ourselves to think there's something inherently other about wildness. Scary, unorganized, and if we let it get to us, it's going to tear down all good things, right? And we'll become barbaric again. And barbaric just comes from the same word as barber, just means to have long hair. But anyway, our fear— and I want to add to that that the French word— remember before I said that indigenous people are wild humans? The French word for a wild human is savage, is sauvage. Sauvage means wild. If you're into wild plants in Montreal, where I've hung out a lot, you're looking for sauvage plants, right? Plants that are sauvage, wild. We call these people savages. Instead of letting that word mean wild, we've turned that word into all of the— it has all these negative connotations.

Yeah, Mad Max, that kind of thing.

Yeah, exactly, right? Post-apocalyptic guys with mohawk helmets running you down on teched-out motorbikes. That's scary. All of the scientific information that we see coming in seems to keep corroborating this idea that every step away from nature leads to a breakdown in our health, whether it's whether it's sitting too much, whether it's not getting enough wild plant antioxidants, whether it's the nutrients being too low, whether it's the backbreaking labor of farming at the beginning of the Neolithic Revolution, whether it's not— I mean, everything seems to point to the one thing that humans are not seeming to be able to actually acknowledge, which is that we are healthier in our wild environment. We have this picture, and here's I think where the amazing, wonderful, and I fully support the Paleo movement, but here's where they failed us a little bit. Is that what Chris Ryan calls— and he gave me permission to use this because I told him I loved it so much— that Flintstone-ization of wild people. We just— I think if we were to poll the top 90, 100, you know, paleo companies, their logo would be a caveman in an asymmetrical sort of, you know, rotting skin with like a spear. And it's like, what we're learning is that that is a caricature. That isn't who we are or were.

Or want to be.

Or want to be, right. But what makes more sense is the highly sophisticated Native American type cultures. We don't typically think of Native Americans as being those barbaric savages, do we? Now, culturally, I think we understand that they had art, music, dance, sophisticated worldviews.

Unless you're a Redskins fan, right?

Yeah, exactly right. Then we caricature. But what's interesting is when Europeans arrived in North America, the North American continent was in the Stone Age 400 years ago. right? These are sophisticated people living very beautiful lives. That is a more wild life. What I'm talking about is not going back to some kind of cave bear fighting made-up story. Now we even know Neanderthals weren't like that, right? We thought, okay, we figured out we weren't like that, but those Neanderthals were. Now we know they were sophisticated too. I want to be clear. I'm not like a Luddite just saying, oh, we've got to go back to some kind— and that's not going to happen, but we can integrate connect what those people did, knew, learned, how they lived with how we live in that kind of zoo environment. My theory is this: if we do this generationally for a while, we become something new. I call it Homo sapiens neo-aboriginalis. We're not going to go back to being wild, but maybe we can create a stronger subspecies because this one we are right now is degenerating, right? Cancer, heart disease, diabetes, tooth decay, bone decay. It's just like we're coming unglued.

You said something interesting. You said that we were in a factory farm and some indigenous Most people would believe that for sure, but who is the factory farmer in your experience? Who's running the farm?

I published an online magazine called Rewild Yourself, and the next edition— I put it out on the solstices, equinox, and cross-quarters. The next one coming out is called The Operant Condition, and it looks at how operant condition is used to domesticate us. On the COVID I've been trying to figure out how to show that because I don't know. I wish I knew. right? There's a lot of, you know, like the conspiracy people love to, like, you know, it's these top 12 people at the top of the pyramid. Maybe. Maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's reptilian aliens, maybe it's the collective unconscious of humans as we self-domesticate, auto-domesticate. I don't know who the factory farmer is, but certainly the governments of the world function as at least farmhands, right? These function as farmhands. people who work in government, they function as farmhands. Doctors function like the vets on the farm, right? And it's interesting. It's like you wouldn't take— you wouldn't medically traumatize animals in a zoo, right? You're very careful about that. But look how you medically traumatize animals on a factory farm, like snip the beaks off a chicken, cut the tails off of a— cut the foreskin off of baby boys. However you want to do it, those are things you do on a farm that you wouldn't do in a zoo. In a zoo, it's like, how do we minimize the traumatic impact. Whoever the farmer is or whoever they are or however that works, I don't know. I'm trying to come up— to me it's an unseen hand. So I think that's what I'm going to show on the COVID of the next magazine is an unseen hand.

That's a good way of putting it. My degree is in decision support systems, which is like a subset of artificial intelligence, and a lot of my career has been looking at emergent behaviors in large-scale networks. I'm pretty sure that a lot of corporate evil isn't that companies or executives set out to do evil. There are a few assholes out there, but this is more about like a million decisions get made to optimize a certain outcome and they're tiny decisions that don't appear to be evil. When you add them up, it happens. That was— It's emergent is what you're saying. It's an emergent behavior that we didn't know we were optimizing for that, but we did through just a few rules. The other one is the indigenous South American shamanic— what's the guy's name from Don Juan, one of those classic shamanic texts? There's these black slime creatures that feed off negative emotions, so they make the world dark. There's no aliens in that one, but that is a very common shamanic viewpoint. Either there's this unseen world that indigenous people are more connected to, and the indigenous people I know, especially medicine men, those guys have skills that are not normal. I don't know what to say about that, but they're just not normal.

Are we talking about what those people see? I've had the opportunity to be in some really powerful ceremonies, and I always wonder, are they seeing something that I'm not seeing, or are they seeing a projection of archetype? Does that emergent behavior take on, in the archetypical dream world realm of the mind, that black slime, or is it really a black slime? I don't know. Whichever way it works almost doesn't matter because what I know is that energy is so oppressive and feels so virulent that I feel driven away from it. And that's led me to where I'm at today teaching what I teach. And I felt it ever since I was young. I remember feeling it. I remember, like, my friend Shailene was recently in this movie Divergent. I don't know if you saw that, but she played— yeah, it's a big Hollywood thing anyway. She played a character that couldn't be brainwashed. She was Divergent.

Oh no, actually, that was a killer movie. I did see that.

Okay, cool.

I didn't recognize I don't know if that's the name, but alright, cool.

So that's been a fun theme for me because I feel like I was always divergent. The programming didn't work well on me, and I always was looking around going, is everybody else just like chickens? Are their feet just growing into the cages? I'm trying to find a way out of this thing. And honestly, that's led over the years to this work I'm doing now, which is looking at what can we actually do? Like boots on the ground, what do we do? Bare feet on the ground. How do we actually start to live in a way that that can support our health because if we don't take really strong action, we'll just get swept up in the current of culture and it's so dangerous to us. I mean, culture's not your friend, I think is what Terence McKenna used to say. I'd say civilization's not your friend. In the end, Winston loved Big Brother.

All right, let's switch gears a bit because you and I have something else in common. We've both been raw vegans.

Oh, wow.

Tell me what happened. Why are you a former raw vegan?

Sure. Well, let me say why I got into it, which was I've been thinking about this idea of human wildness since I was quite young, and I didn't— some things seem obvious to me now that weren't obvious to me then. At the time, it really made sense. I bought into that idea that, well, in nature I would not cook, and I would eat fruits and vegetables, and I probably wouldn't— and that made a lot of sense to me. I didn't have the foresight at the time. I was about 15. 15 years old when I started that. I didn't understand that fire was something Homo sapiens have had since they existed as a species, and it goes back several hominids before us. I also didn't understand that all the fruits that I was eating that I thought were natural foods don't come from nature at all.

They were bags of watery candy, right?

Yeah. These are— I call them artifacts. One distinction I like to make is to say, what's the difference between an arrowhead and the piece of flint that it was napped from? The piece of flint is a wild-occurring stone. The arrowhead is the same stone, but it bears the mark of human will upon it. It's an artifact. And that's where we get the word artificial. And that's where we get the breakdown in that thinking of, well, nuclear bombs are natural technically because everything comes from nature. So technically it's— well, no, it bears the mark of human will, therefore it's an artifact. Well, I didn't know that the fruits like bananas, I didn't know that every banana was a clone. I didn't know that every banana I had eaten from childhood into adulthood was the same, genetically the same banana, or every Red Delicious was the same Red Delicious, or every Cortland apple was the same. These are all clones. No one told me I was eating clones. Most people don't know they're eating clones, right? They wouldn't eat cloned animals if they knew, but they eat cloned fruits, right? I didn't know that. I didn't know that the vegetables I was eating were the palest versions It took me a while to get to that, and I did it for about 10 years.

Wow.

It started really, really good, and it ended with me pretty busted up and feeling like I was having a lot of immune compromise. I was having a lot of cerebral type nervous system compromise. I just felt overall like I was hungry all the time. It was Weston Price's work that really helped me bust through that. That's when I really got— I can look at indigenous people and that's the answer. I was living off of this kind of Garden of Eden parable that prior to— we could live without disease and without death by just eating the fruits off the trees, and I didn't get that there weren't really fruits like that on the trees.

You would also eat the snake off the tree while you were at it.

Yeah.

You went 10 years, which is pretty impressive, so you must have been relatively healthy when you started.

Yeah, I was young. I wasn't sick when I started. I was 16 years old, and I was, at the time— I'm sure, like yourself, it draws an extreme character, somebody who's willing to push through what most people won't push through. That's always been me. I'm always willing to go a little bit further than most people seem to want to go. Sometimes that works to my advantage, and other times it works to my detriment. When I was young and immoderate, yeah, I did. I pushed that too long. Now, looking back, I also damaged my teeth. I've since had a few cavities filled. I was born really blessed with a good dental arch and perfect teeth. I never had any dental problems, and I developed dental problems doing that diet. One of the interesting things now I see that it's kind of a cult, and it functions like a cult. In order to pull somebody out of it, you actually have to use the same kind of technique that you'd use to pull somebody out of another type of cult.

You don't, man. There's an elixir. It's called Bulletproof Coffee. You give that to a vegan one time, and they're like, "Oh my God." like, "Oh my God, I got cholesterol. I feel so much better than I have in so long. I guess I can have butter again." So much energy now.

Yeah, it's funny, right? Because you've been taught to see the world really differently. In that world, butter, you look at it and it's like, "That will clog my arteries. That won't work for me." It takes a while to flip it around. Anyway, I think, yeah, I've done a lot of work to pull as many people out of that way of thinking as I can. I learned the cleansing techniques that are so valuable to me, and as I experience more of what the Paleo world's like, I want to knit those two worlds together because it's like the Paleo people get all the building side of it. The raw foodie people have all the cleansing side of it. They need to crisscross technologies really badly because one of the things that's important for us to keep in mind is that we're living in a world that is so toxic on a dramatic level, and not just industrial toxins, but nuclear toxins, and then increasing micro microbe virulence. We're dealing with more stuff that— interestingly too, we live as domesticated beings of the house. We live indoors, which is obviously a word that didn't really exist 10,000 years ago because people didn't live indoors. They didn't have doors or walls. They might have had a teepee, but you have good airflow, right? So they weren't— people were not living indoors. We didn't have to deal with things like, let's say, dust, which is dead skin. right? So you get that house full of dust thing going on. It's accumulating. That's dead skin from you and everybody who's living in your house. Well, outside that just gets sort of wound down and biodegraded into the environment, but in our houses it accumulates, and mites live in that, and then we breathe that and filter that through us all day long, in addition to the chlorofluorocarbons and all the stuff that's emerging out of our, you know, industrial furniture, or the lack of sunlight. I mean, we're compounding all this stuff by living indoor toxic lives. If we don't have technologies— I like to note that the Native Americans did the sweat lodge all over this continent. They lived in essentially the purest, cleanest environment possible, and yet they still cleansed their bodies through the sweating mechanism, which is powerful because— I mean, talk about a hack. It's like your skin eliminates both oil-soluble toxins and water-soluble toxins. You can't achieve that with peeing stuff out. That's water-soluble only. You can poop out a little bit of fat-soluble stuff, but the skin is the big secret. They knew that, and they lived in a clean environment. How much more do we need that stuff now? We have to reduce our toxic load. I think we need a cleansing lifestyle. It has to be integrated in, and that's what goes above and beyond the—

If you want to kick ass, that's the way to do it. What did they eat? Clay and activated charcoal. I mean, there's a reason— product plug here— I have an activated charcoal that's ultra-fine and all that. That I make, and it's in fact the only one that's that fine on the market because surface area matters so much. My brain works better when I bind toxins. It's not a great leap to think that that would make sense, but like you, in the vegan world, when I was a raw vegan, I did learn a lot. I did liver flushes and all sorts of detoxes. Like you, I split a couple teeth and ran into a lot of weird pain, and my brain turned off, and I got I got a lot of autoimmunity stuff I didn't have. I went back and now also like you, I'm a fan of cholesterol and a fan of eating butter and all that kind of stuff. There was a healing period it took, which is weird because you did it as a young guy. Young people under 25 can handle a raw vegan diet and they feel good for longer. If you're over 25, in my experience just talking with followers and people There's about a 3-month— I call it the vegan trap, where for 3 months you're like, "Yes, I feel so clean. I lost weight. I feel good.

My skin's glowing." You want to buy a book and a website right away.

Yeah, exactly. It's really evangelical because you feel awesome. What's going on there is a mitochondrial thing from excessive omega-6, but it's short-term. Then when you start to decline, it's slow, and we don't notice slow. All of a sudden you're humbled and dulled. By something that used to be.

It must be toxic.

Yeah, exactly.

Must have more cleansing to do. Because I'm pretty networked into the raw vegan world, I know a lot of the top names, and one of the things that was happening, I came out and started— I never taught raw veganism. I was already past that, but I was in that world, and I got to speak with those big names, but talk about the stuff we're talking about. I was really hated in that scene, and I got a lot of— I mean, everything from the death threats to the trolling, the whole thing. Yeah, people hated what I was talking about for a while, and then it slowly started to— now what happened was behind the scenes, a lot of those people who are the teachers in that community would be eating salmon and butter with me, and they— and I'd say, look, when are you gonna tell the truth about this? And they were so roped into the identity they had built in that community that they had to figure out strategically a political way to tell people that they weren't doing it anymore. So that's, I think, an important thing for people to know. Behind the scenes, not a lot of the people who talk about it are doing it. And during that 3-month period is when Most people get their stuff off the ground, they feel so good in the first year, they put out all this stuff, "Oh my God, Ross the Wave, blah, blah, blah," and then it's really hard to get out of that because they pigeonholed themselves and that's where their money's coming from. It's very difficult often to make a transition because you've built that network.

One of the more scary speeches I've given was at the David Wolfe Conference. I was honored. Dave is a big name and I've got a lot of respect for him. He invited me up there, so I stood up. I said, "Guys, I'm just going to have to tell you this, but I'm a lacto-ovo-bifo-porco vegetarian." That was my opening. Either they're going to throw, not eggs, but vegan eggs at me or something, or we're going to connect. My talk was like why butter is good for you, why salt is good for you. The feedback was really, really good because I think a lot of the people in the audience maybe just had a little bit of butter every now and then, but then they felt guilty. When you're like, "No, there's superfood logic behind butter and egg yolks and all this." If you give yourself permission to do those things and still adhere to the values that, as a raw vegan, I still agree with those, like fresh, healthy, lots of vegetables, all those I do. Those are Bulletproof Diet things as well, but on top of that, you just layer in some very healthy animal that was fed properly, slaughtered properly, processed properly, and cooked properly.

Clean animal food, right? Yeah.

When you do that, it changes how you feel. It's like if eating crap makes you feel like this, the first 3 months of vegan makes you feel like this, but eating really vegan, maybe cooking a little bit more of those vegetables, but doing that and then throwing the other stuff on, you just keep feeling better and better. That's what I talk about, the Bulletproof State of High Performance. You know that feeling because you do this very similar practice, right?

Yeah. I have a friend who got caught up in the drug war. He's been away for a couple of years. and I stay in touch with him. He asked me, "Hey, what have I missed in the last couple years?" I was thinking, "Okay, well, a couple versions of iPhone, Skype was there when you went in, nothing." I was like, "Instagram, oh, and since you've been in, coffee and bacon are health foods now." Like, it's gonna flip-flop, right? There's this piece though that I want to share, and that's that in the plant realm, I think here's a piece that's missing from both sides of the equation. That's that when we talk about wild plants, and if you're somebody who's hearing this going like, I'm never going foraging in my life, it's not even part of my— so that's no problem because the domestic version of this is called herbalism. That's where you're working with wild plants in a more controlled setting. But whichever way you do it, here's the thing about wild plants is that they are so fundamentally different than the domestic versions. So an example would be out in my yard right now we have a plant, Queen Anne's lace, or the wild carrot. Now all carrots come from there. The seeds of the wild plant will prevent the implantation of a zygote in the uterus. In other words, it's a birth control. When we breed the plant to create more sugar, bigger size, more water, blah, blah, blah, we lose— we breed out all the bitter tastes, and those bitter tastes are those pharmaceutical drugs that are in the plant. With our lettuces is the most fascinating one because the wild lettuce is the stuff they sell as marijuana substitutes. If you ever have seen that stuff in the back of a magazine for sale, like legal marijuana, that's wild lettuce. Now in both Europe, England, and the United States, the pharmacopoeias of the 1800s listed the latex of that plant as an opiate substitute and as a drug that you could use to help reduce opiate addiction, and also as a sedative and a hypnotic. Now you can cut the wild lettuce plant, bleed an opium out of it, and smoke smoke it. You get high from that. I'm not saying that people should or shouldn't do that. I don't really care which—

Iceberg, like sativa and that dark green stuff?

Yeah.

Here's the thing. That stuff is really bitter tasting. If we were to cut the bottom of a romaine, you'll see it bleed a little white latex still. That's what's left of that drug, but we've bred so much out. Now, the iceberg lettuce, as you know, is like— you can look through it. It's translucent. We— and it's all sweet, no bitter. Then we still see some bitterness in the red leaf or the oak leaf or something like that. That's the remnant. My point is this: when we domesticate plants, we typically breed all the drugs out. The drugs range everything from immunomodulators to full-on psychoactives to adaptogens, all kinds of different drugs, the whole suite of possible pharmaceuticals. Now, if you remember back Hippocrates' thing, "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food," wise sage advice, but you can't do it now if you go to the supermarket because none of those foods have medicine.

I had a bowl of Provigil with milk this morning for breakfast.

I didn't. I think what the vegan people think they're getting all this medicine from their plants, but their plants typically are lacking in them. What I think's gone on for domestic humans is one of the things is that we have a tremendous medicine deficiency. Like a vitamin deficiency, we have a pharmaceutical deficiency. So this is something pharmaceutical companies are able to then sell us back. So we're eating food devoid of it, but we need drugs, so we end up getting them in the form of these pills, which are too isolated and too concentrated. They throw us all out of balance, and we're just trying— we're not able to do what, what indigenous people do, wild people do, which is get the medicine and the food together in one place. So what I think— one thing I think would be great for us who are really onto the cholesterol, animal food saturated fat paradigm is to make sure we're bringing in plants that give us those suites of chemicals because otherwise we end up— we're on that caricature diet of the perceived caveman who's getting all the fat. Hey, those people— my friend Arthur I mentioned earlier, the taxonomist, has been trying to publish a paper with the Weston Price Institute for a long time showing how much plant food is actually consumed, not just by indigenous people, but by Inuits. You'd assume the Inuits barely eat. Not true. Especially in the summer months, they're consuming as many plants, berries, algaes as they can get, and those provide a suite of chemicals. We picture them eating just fish and whale blubber, and that is a caricature. We need to make sure we're getting not more carbohydrate plants, more medicinal plants. We need to be lifting the levels of those so that we don't become— so that our body systems don't start breaking down from a lack of drugs.

Very well said. You said something earlier that caught my attention. You talked about increasing microvirulence. What are you talking about there? What's going on with that?

Well, we've been flooding the— well, microbes are brilliant, right? Microbes are brilliant. I'm reading Stephen Buhner's book right now, Plant Intelligence, his new book, which is exploring emergent behavior in biological systems. And the way that microbes communicate is a big portion of the book. He's talking about how when a microbe becomes resistant to an antibiotic, it doesn't just become resistant within its own species. It tells other species of microbes how to become resistant to it as well, and then it will figure out other variants you might come up with on that antibiotic, and it will become resistant to those preemptively, right? I think what human beings are doing— but we've downbred ourselves to the point of extreme weakness. We've reduced the medicine quality and quant— not quantity because we take it as pharmaceuticals, but quality for sure of our diets. We've isolated ourselves into an extremely hygienic environment, so hygienic that like Boy in the Bubble, we're actually starving for interaction with other species. We're too monocropped, so we're super susceptible. Then at the same time, we've been educated. In the same way that the U.S. government is educating insurgencies around the world how to fight them better, right? It's like what we do, we go to Afghanistan and we teach them how to beat us by doing the same thing over and over again, and they figure out, okay, this works, this doesn't work. We're creating better insurgents that way. I say that with quotations. I don't really buy into that whole story, but if you understand what I mean, we're educating bacteria on all of our tricks and teaching them how to beat us better. Then we're flushing them out by cutting down all the ecosystems, and we're drawing those out I think one of the things that was happening, too, is we're becoming incredibly susceptible to fungal, mold-type issues. We're living in structures that are rotting, a lot of old infrastructure. All this stuff put together, we're not able to really cope with this toxic load. Add into that nuclear, biological, and industrial waste into our tissue. It's a bad mix. Yeah, I think we're creating stronger microbes. We've just been kicking the can down the road on the next good outbreak, I think.

It's funny you mentioned structures. I'm just starting filming on a documentary about toxic mold in homes and what it does to you. I've got a film team put together and talking with a bunch of experts. I just bought a 15-year-old house. Every bathroom had toxic mold growing in it. I mean full-on black mold behind the showers because they were slightly installed wrong. One whole exterior wall had to come off. The crawl space had to be decontaminated. I mean, it's amazing.

This is a 15-year-old— Like a litter box, right?

Like as if—

One of the most difficult things, though, okay, so if you're going to rewild, let's say you decide to go live out in a tent for a while. I do this from time to time. I'm living in one right now outside of my house. I do much in the house in the day, but I sleep outside at night. Nice. One of the big challenges is if you decide, okay, I'm not going to use my toilet anymore. See, human beings naturally are semi-nomadic. They move through big circuits from camp to camp, right? They have their summer place and their winter place. And they're moving all the time so their waste doesn't accumulate. Sedentism, sedentary living like we do, means we stay in one place, which means we have a huge problem figuring out what to do with all of our poop and our pee and all of our gray water and all this stuff. And so that means some part of our house has to be a litter box for domestic humans, and that place tends to be really wet. And what do you do with all this water? And because of the really cheesy cheap Home Depot style building practices that we have Because this is a factory farm, not a zoo. If it was a zoo, we would say, how do we build bathrooms where we negate this? But the idea is, how do you raise humans really fast, maximize their labor, suck all the cash out of them at the end, and then kill them off fairly humanely at the end? That's sort of the program that we're in. No one cares. And so we have these bathrooms that are so toxic to people that, yeah, I mean, I can't imagine what it's like if we were to pull back the drywall in most people's bathrooms or kitchens because what's in there is dangerous.

It's not just dangerous. It's that, okay, you might get cancer. You're certainly— if you have the wrong genes, you're going to get autoimmunity, but these take time. The problem is that every day it makes you a jerk. It turns off your prefrontal cortex. It makes you slow. Literally, you can't think as well when you're around this stuff, and you're more in fight or flight, sympathetic dominant, more animal brain, less human brain. That's the really sneaky stuff there, and that's why I keep focusing on it. The other thing, you've talked so much about pressure on people and animals. We've been spraying potent mutagens, like X-Men material stuff, on our soil for a very long time. Fungal things, as well as bacteria, can change their plasmid-level genes with each other like baseball trading cards. X-ray creation here, let's just try that. Oh, can you make cyanide? Here's my cyanide playing cards.

Hopefully, yeah.

And they reproduce every 20 minutes and they've been doing this for at least 30 years since we started spraying stuff on them.

And they've been doing this since the dawn of the existence of the Earth, right? Of course.

But those are single gene, not plasmid level. So before it was like, okay, I'll change over time, but now it's like, look, I just changed 5 things at once here, and then they swap it all around This is one of the reasons that our environmental molds that grow in our houses, aside from cheap building practices and building in winter and all the crap, but why it's becoming such a problem and why we see soil fungus getting into our food like our grains, like our coffee, dare I say, and all these other things, and why the level of toxins created by those is much higher than it used to be. We did it to them. We created, not domesticated, organisms, although we have those like to make citric acid from Aspergillus. What we did is we created really pissed off, angry, offended, like basically—

Constantly under attack.

Yeah, like the Afghanistan of soil fungus is what you'll find in a Roundup sprayed crop, and then it gets into the food and it makes toxins, and then we get those parts per billion that add up. I'm as concerned about that as I am about the radiological, the other toxins, the chemicals that we spray, because naturally occurring self-creating chemicals will fuck you up more. You can stop spraying tomorrow, and we're still going to be dealing with that through the end of time. We've been dealing with food storage toxins.

I hate to be a pessimist, but it's like, even if we change it all today, the domino effect is still cascading our way. For me, it comes from a paradigm. We often think about the Neolithic Revolution, we call it, where humans took on agriculture all the humans together in the world just at the same time were like, this is great, let's do it. And what actually happened was a small group of people did that and spread out conquering and assimilating everybody. And the native people everywhere in the world have fought it and resisted it, and that fight is almost over, but it's still— the conquest is still happening, right? But nobody else wanted to get on this because the paradigms were so different. The native indigenous paradigm is we are enmeshed in these ecosystems, and all these species are types of people and we all live here together harmoniously, and we're anchoring our spot symbiotically with them. Our view that we've been taught, taught to sensory gate all information that doesn't go with this, is no, the world's about humans. All these other species are passive actors. There's cameo appearances by dogs and cows maybe, but they're still small roles, and when it comes to microbes, literally they're extras on the set, but this world's about humans. And I feel like this paradigm has certainly run its course, and now through that kind of emergent behavior thing we were talking about, it's like the world's going, like, how do we evict these folks? Because they're just ruining the party for everybody. And I think we've got to get right with the world really quick here, or maybe, maybe some of us get right with the world and some of us don't, and I don't know, maybe we go to bifurcated different lines or something. I think some of us have to figure out how to live harmoniously again with all of these microbes, with all of these other species, because if we don't, I think we're going to get run out of town pretty fast. Yeah.

I actually don't worry about the global population problem at all because I've looked at reproductive statistics in doing the research for The Better Baby Book. 1 in 8 couples can't conceive without matrix-level interventions. That's The Matrix movie where we're doing a lot of mechanistic interventions and pulling things out of you and putting them back in. So next generation, 1 in 4, and 1 in 2 kids will have autism by 2025. So we don't have to worry, especially in the West, about there being too many people. We have to worry about there being enough healthy people because what we're doing now sets the stage for our grandkids epigenetically very strongly.

That's the thing, right? My behaviors today are for me or for my kids, but for my kids' kids, and I'm dealing with grandma's stuff. And that's why, I mean, you know, it's delicate, but it's like, I go out in some public places, you know, certain large chain department stores, for instance, where you go inside and it's like a circus sideshow of mutants, right? And—

geez, Daniel.

I'm sorry, but you're looking around going like, oh my gosh, there's a whole There are whole swaths of people who it's like what happened is maybe this goes back a couple generations, right? Some of us come from strong stock a couple generations ago. Some of us come from stock that was already quite weakened two generations ago, and we're playing that stuff out now. Now all of us have the ability to get in there and start epigenetically activating and deactivating stuff, which is thank goodness that we know that now, that we can actually make changes now. I think we all have tremendous opportunity But I mean, there are whole groups of people in the Western world whose state of decay is so dramatic that they're almost not recognizable as being the same. And it's so delicate to say that, but I see people that it's like, "Wow, that person is in a deep state of degeneration," and celebrating it.

Yeah, there are definitely people on different paths, we can agree on that. Now, we're running out of time, but there's a question I've asked every guest, and I'm really eager to hear your answer on this one and every show with it. It's, what are your top 3 recommendations for people who want to kick more ass, people who want to perform better? This isn't just from your rewilding, but all of the wisdom in your life, the 3 most important things that people can do.

Yeah, okay. 3 things would be immersion in nature. If that means starting on walking down trails or maybe for you it's backpacking, I love that you mentioned that earlier. Or foraging or whatever it is because there's 4 things there, earth, water, air, fire, that we really need to be getting exposed to epigenetically. We need exposure to soil, to naturally occurring water that doesn't have antibiotics and fluoride in it, to fresh air. Yes, there's such a thing as freshness, right? It's like there's electrical properties in air that we need, and we need that sunlight. We're doing the no soil, toxic water, artificial air, and artificial light thing, and that's really hard on us. We need more immersion outside, so that's one. Second is we need movement that's constantly sophisticating. In other words, I think we need a paradigm of movement and exercise that's about physical adaptation and training for greater levels of sophistication rather than just, ugh, pick heavy thing up and do repeat, repeat, repeat like or the robotic, "I'm a robot, I move only in one plane of movement." We need to be teaching ourselves because when we teach our body, that's one thing that builds our neurosynaptic connections. We build better neural pathways by moving in more sophisticated ways. Once you learn something, it's time to add a layer of sophistication and not just keep doing that one thing. It's not just functional, it's ever-sophisticating functional. I think we really need to get in touch with really good sex. Sex, like really, really good sex, because we maybe have underestimated what a driving force that is for all species on the planet. It's so important to us that any diminishment of its importance leads to like mental pathology. So I think we need to really figure out and become masterful sexually again, and time to get masterful at providing women with what they need to reach orgasm. It's time to get really good at that. Ladies, time to learn what guys really love and we need to be sharing that with each other in a really, really— we need to understand it's very important to us because if not, we get so frustrated and demented inside and it comes out in so many toxic ways. So, I mean, you know, outside, move, and make love. I think those three things are— they shouldn't be secrets but they almost are.

Fantastic. I was thinking we'd get a chance to talk about sex and orgasm because I've done some biohacks on that stuff as well, but we just had so many other cool things to talk about. The next time you're on, Daniel, you're always welcome. Maybe you can come on when it's time to promote your new book. In the meantime, can you give everyone your URLs, whatever other places they can go to find you? We'll put all this in the show notes. We'll be linking from the Bulletproof site, but just so people who are driving right now can pick that up?

Sure. The main place would be DanielVitalis.com, and what I want to encourage people to do is get hooked up on my subscription, which is— gets you my newsletter, which I put out on the new and full moon, and the idea is sync you back up with natural time. The moon is what we now call the month, and the month used to be the moon phases, and now it's just arbitrary. It's called— what we're on is civil time. I'm into this idea of natural time, so I put newsletters out on the full and new moon, and I put my free magazine out, which is a multimedia, content-heavy Lots of writing, lots of videos, lots of interviews. Really amazing magazine. It comes out on the solstices, equinoxes, and cross-quarters. Together, that subscription gives you a solar and lunar interlocked calendar, which helps to keep you reminded of what's going on in nature rather than what's going on on our watches and calendars. Through there, you can find my Finderspring website. You can find my store, surfthrive.com, and all my products. We are going to give a 10% coupon to your listeners. That's Bulletproof, is that coupon code. You can get all that through danielvitales.com, and of course all my social network information is there too.

Thank you, Daniel. It has been a pleasure. We talked about some way cool stuff, and seriously, come back on.

Hey, thanks so much, man. Great talking to you.

If you've been listening to this podcast and you're wondering where to start, why don't you just jump in with both feet? Check out the Bulletproof Total Upgrade Kit. Which is available on upgradedself.com.

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