Rick Rubin: How to Hack Your Mind for Creative Breakthroughs : 1251

Before sleep, I use a device that calm the brainwave. It's called a Fisher Wallace device. I got a saunaspace tent with the red lights. So the beauty of that is I get the sweat of the sauna plus the red light.

The best stuff comes out of Russia. The Fisher Wallace device you mentioned before, the cerebral electrical stimulation. I've been using something similar for 20 years and it came out of the Russian space program. They're getting peptides from young animals and making these little capsules you can take that are targeted at certain organ systems to make them younger. And this oxygen restriction device came from the Russian milit. Well, it's expensive to pressurize a jet fighter. Why don't we just make our pilots? Pressure agnostic. So they're literally hacking the human body. You also do some more advanced biohacking stuff. What are some of the kind of cool, funky things that maybe you think people haven't heard of that you've found value in? You're listening to the human upgrade.

With Dave Asprey.

Going to be talking something about music, something about high end music. But not with a musician per se, but with none other than legendary music producer Rick Rubin, who is in probably more ways than he knows, responsible for some of the work that I've done. The first time I met Rick several years ago must have been 2013. I mentioned I was working on the Bulletproof diet. And Rick, just at the first time, we were sat down for lunch, he said, hold on, let me make a phone call. And he called someone. And that is why you guys read about it on the New York Times list. Because I was gonna self publish. Cause I didn't know what I was doing. And all it took was like one poke from Rick in the right direction to get me to go. Maybe I should publish this as a quote, real book. So Rick, I don't know if I've ever formally thanked you for that, but you set the wheels in motion in a really cool way. But when I look back, I realize that pretty much 80% of the music that I've listened to while I'm writing my books is music that you've directly touched. We're talking about Rage against the Machine. I mean, Johnny Cash and you've worked with Metallica, Kanye, like pretty much all of the, all the people that you know, you've worked with. But for people listening, if you aren't familiar with Rick's work, it's just kind of ridiculous. Go to Spotify, look up Rick Rubin playlist. And you just realize the music that probably makes the biggest memories of your life was touched by Rick, who has this Zen like manner, these big blue eyes that just look at you and this big beard. And he's probably the opposite of what you might think a music producer is. So I'm super honored to be not just interviewing Rick, but to be doing it at Shangri La Recording Studios, which is why I sound so amazingly good. Because I'm probably on a 50 billion dollar microphone sitting at a place full of history right next door to Bob Dylan's tour bus. It's one of the most epic things I could possibly imagine me doing right now. So, Rick, with that introduction, thank you for being on Bulletproof Radio.

Thanks for having me.

This may be a tough question for you. What was your singular most favorite experience producing music? The one that just stands out as like most memorable? I want to know why.

Yeah, I don't think it's possible to answer the question. I'll say that the thing that's most exciting about the process is when something goes from not very good to very good in this moment where very little has changed. So it feels like magic is happening. And when that happens, that's a really exciting experience. And you can be working on something for a long time and it's kind of trudging along in this boring, uninteresting way. And then for some reason it shifts into, into being remarkable. And sometimes you can't even tell the difference of what's different between when it's remarkable and when it was uninteresting five minutes earlier. But it happens anytime those moments of transformation happen and we get very excited and then there's this feeling of, let's say it's a band performing and they're performing together and that starts that feeling of, oh my God, it's really good. Then it's like, scary because, oh, are they gonna make it to the end of the song? Is it gonna be able to maintain this? You know, it's like. Because we don't even know why it's happening. It's like all of this work is so out of our control. So we're, we're really at the mercy of the forces of the universe to control the process. And we're just, we just have to be patient and be open and allow it to happen, invite it to happen. And sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. But when it does, it's really exciting.

You started Def Jam when you were a young man in college and you had an ear, an eye, an intuition, a feel, some way of picking out, oh, I don't know, the Beastie Boys and Run DMC and these very early transformative artists. So you didn't rely on a body of experience. Oh, I've done this for 20 years. I became a master at doing this by putting in the hard work. Were you just always naturally. Did you have a spark? Did you always sense things this way? Or did you get stronger over time because it feels like you've touched so many things consistently for 40 years?

Yeah, it just seems like a natural. I really love music and I really love good music. And the best way to describe what I do is I'm really just a fan. I'm a super fan of music.

Okay.

And I'm true to that fandom. So when I hear something, if it makes me lean forward and gets me excited, I know that that's good.

I've seen you do that. I think one time when we were chatting or something, I mentioned some older song that just did something for me. And I watched you, your eyes change. You sort of like zoomed in on it, if that's the right word for it, to sort of see if it had the thing for you. And it did. And it was just a song I liked. Right. But it was almost like a. I would describe it as watching a predator look at something. Not in a bad way, but just like if you see a big cat suddenly gets interested, like the ears come up and like all the senses come out and look and go, is that something that I want to eat? And you're like, okay, no, that's not something. But it was very tangible. I could feel that, this intensity that just came on. And it was probably a three second thing. You were born with that.

Yes, but I think you were born with it too, because it's a sensitivity. It's something that I know that we share from discussions we've had before. And those are the same things that make us uncomfortable when we walk into certain places, make you start sneezing, difficulties with traveling. It's just a over sensitization that I just apply to music. But it really complicates my life.

Yeah. Being a highly sensitive person is a complicating factor, but it comes with a gift. Because there's times, and I do not claim any musical skills, despite my April Fool's rap video. But there's times when I look at something, I go, that's it. Like, that's why mitochondria do this. And I don't know how I know it, but I know it. And then I Do the work and you write about it. And you realize, okay, you can put these ingredients together and have this effect in a way that wasn't done before.

It's interesting, too, how often the science follows. Like, in music, we don't set the intention of what we want to make. We just know we want it to be good. And we're open to the process, but we don't decide. We don't decide in advance, oh, we're going to make a song that's a political song in it. We want it to do these things. It's not like that. Or, I want to write a love song that's going to mean this to this person. It's not like that. It's all more of just an open, almost like automatic writing process where we're trying to tap into our subconscious and let the ideas come through where we might not even know what it means. And then after it appears and after we realize we like it, then we might analyze it and try to understand what is it that we like? How does this work? But we don't start with the science and then build it. It's more like we have this magical moment that's more rooted in emotion. And then after that happens, we then try to see if we could figure out why it is. And we don't always. We can't always tell, you know, we just know we like it. We don't always know why. Sometimes it's like, oh, it does this, it does this, it does this. We like those things that makes sense. And sometimes, no idea.

It seems like in music and art, it's okay to not know why something works, but when we get into the world of biohacking or medicine, if there's no reason for it to work, therefore it doesn't work. Well, hold on. It did work, but we couldn't explain it. How do you think music and art escaped that breaking down into its constituent elements thing so that you can say, that's a great song, couldn't tell you why, and people all know it's great. Do you have a theory?

No, but I would say that theory. I would apply that theory to everything. And in my life, I don't need to understand the science of why a biohack works or doesn't work. And if there's something going on with me and there are 10 different possible ways of dealing with it, I'll try all 10, and I won't know which of them worked and which of them didn't. But I don't care. I just want it to work.

You got the results right?

Yeah, that's all that. All that I'm interested in is what works for me.

It's a liberating perspective. And I didn't used to have it because I was trained as an engineer. And like I'm going to try this one thing and then this other thing and you realize same thing. If you're trying to compose a song one instrument at a time without the other ones playing, it probably would not sound very good. So the same thing. If your goal is to do something, you might as well just do it all the way. And you and I have talked about a lot of different biohacks and I know I want to talk with you about some of the things that you've done in biohacking that probably most people don't know about that are particularly top of mind for you as a person who's in tune with the world around you see what I did there in tune. But the things that you find either are particularly grounding and really helpful for you or the things that help you have more of that intuitive spark that you use, you know, the one I described. You sort of perk up and look around and just suck in whatever information is there to see if it hits your filters right. What are the things that are maybe like most grounding and settling and like reduce the oversens or the overstimulation that happens?

Well, we'll start with a more nature based thing. So being in nature, being close to the ocean, being barefoot as often as possible, being in water really helps me. I find that if I'm looking for the answer to a problem, instead of sitting and thinking about it, I may go for a swim. And something happens when we distract ourselves with a task that allows. I think again, I don't know how it really works, but the way I would describe it is it seems like we can access a part of our brain that otherwise hard to access through some simple task. Can't be so difficult that it takes all of our attention. But it could be simple as driving. Sometimes when you're driving, like I know for many musicians, if they're working on melodies, they have more success if they listen to the music and drive and sing as they're driving. And just keeping themselves from driving off the road is enough of a task to keep them to have a focus and split their attention between the driving and this creative process.

Sort of get the monkey mind a task. I first came across something like that in my undergrad. I was the first person in my school to have A laptop, because I am a geek. And it had this game called FreeCell on it, you know, early solitaire sort of thing. And I found out that If I played FreeCell during class, which pissed off the entire class, but then I would switch over and take notes that I could listen to what the teacher was saying. So effectively, my notes were like the canonical notes for everyone in the class. And I was acing all my classes because I finally had that equivalent of driving, keeping that part of my brain busy. So I could visualize what the teacher was saying. And it made no sense at the time, and it broke all the rules of multitasking. But for me, it was strangely effective, even though I finally had to explain to everyone that they thought it was rude that I was playing the game, and I thought it was rude that they were looking at my private screen. So we'd have to agree that we were each rude. But it feels like that same sort of an idea.

Absolutely.

So maybe distracting yourself with a menial task is.

I've noticed that many artists I work with tend to draw or scribble. And while they're scribbling, they'll. Ideas will come, or words will come, or melodies will come, ideas will come. And if you watch them, it just looks like they're. It's a very childlike act, and they look like little kids playing. And while that happens, this other thing arrives that's really beautiful.

Wow. So it's the distraction. So for you, you're barefoot, you're electrically grounded, you're swimming, I'm guessing swimming, given that we're in Malibu. You're swimming in the ocean as much as you versus chloride.

Either ocean or a pool. But pool would be either a saltwater pool or a non chlorinated pool.

Okay, cool. You just don't want that on your skin and all. Okay, got it.

I don't like the smell.

Yeah, I don't either. In fact, a lot of the commercial pools that are indoors are super moldy too, because it's always humid. And. Yeah, between the smell and the echoey stuff, I don't find that pleasant. Okay.

Is the air you're breathing making you sick? Just because you don't see mold doesn't mean it isn't there. My friend Jason Earle has been on a mission for over two decades to help people understand the hidden role of indoor air in their health. He's one of the world's leading experts on mold and indoor air quality. And he created the Got Mold Test Kit to make professional grade air testing simple and accessible. It uses cutting edge air sampling tech that top inspectors trust and it's engineered for you at a fraction of the cost. It takes just minutes to get samples using the patented Biovac air sampling pump and then you send them prepaid to one of the most prestigious microbiology labs in the world. No guesswork, no paperwork and no hidden fees. You get fast results, intuitive reports and great support. And since you keep the pump, you can retest anytime for less. It even comes with a lifetime warranty. Mold may be invisible, but its impact isn't. This kit helps you understand your environment so you can take action for your health. Go to gotmold.com and use code DAVE10 to save 10% and see what's in your air. Because the best biohackers don't guess. They test your phone screen is aging your skin and wrecking your sleep at the same time. Artificial blue light goes from your phone screen straight into your eyes and deep into your skin. That light messes with your melatonin levels, interrupts your deep sleep and speeds up skin aging by breaking down collagen. The Bodyguards Red Light Converter fixes this at the source. It's a first of its kind screen protector with real tech that converts blue light into beneficial red light before it hits your face. It turns your scrolling into a skincare routine. It supports healthier skin, reduced eye strain, improved sleep quality and fewer screen related headaches. Third party testing showed a 50% plus increase in red light exposure within the optimal range of 620-60, 770nm and this comes with zero compromise on your screen. The Red Light Converter preserves your screen's true colors and full touch sensitivity. Beyond its wellness benefits, the Red Light Converter provides ultra thin edge to edge protection for your device and bodyguard stands by their quality. Enjoy peace of mind with lifetime replacements, ensuring your Red Light Converter continues to protect and support your biology for the long haul. Visit bodyguards.com and use code Dave for 25% off. That's bodyguards with a Z.com for 25% off.

What are the things I know that you're a meditator. What's the role of meditation in your craft? This ability to not just be sensitive but to have a focus sensitivity.

Yeah. I think that that's what meditation is is it develops your ability to focus in a deep way, in a deep and patient way. And I think patience is a big, big part of it. But the first style of meditation I learned was transcendental meditation and I've done that since I was 14 years old. And since then I've learned Vipassana and I've learned. I use different guided meditations and apps and Metta, which is a Buddhist meditation. But I find myself coming back to tm and it may just be because it was the first one I learned, I don't know. But I really enjoy learning a new one and practicing it for a while and seeing what it does.

Yeah. Being a dabbler in different types of meditation I found to be valuable as well because you never know what it's going to do. And I have a couple of them. I do. And you know, my arms will start shaking and there's electricity moving up my spine. That's not my normal meditation. That's more Kundalini. But it's not a Kundalini meditation. It's an audio thing. And I don't know that I'd want to do that before. Bulletproof radio, like that might be too much. But having kind of a Swiss army knife set of meditation tools is cool. But I find I still don't know exactly which one to do. When do you sort of have a ritual that says I'm going to do TM in the morning or before I, you know, go into extra creative mode? I would do a different style. Do you have a kind of a thought process around that?

I have a loose one. So TM is typically first thing in the morning. If I'm. There are certain times where I've been, I've had dealt with some depression in my life and when I've been in depressed episodes, it's hard for me to stay with a meditation that's a self imposed meditation. And in those times I find that a guided meditation helps more. I can focus on a voice directing me easier than I can direct myself when that happens. So I use those in those occasions. Also I do Metta when I'm exercising, either when I'm. If I'm walking on the beach or if I'm swimming, I repeat the four metaphrases.

What are they?

I repeat them twice just because it makes it easier for me to remember them for some reason. May I be filled with loving kindness. Filled with loving kindness. May I be well. May I be well. May I be peaceful and at ease. May I be peaceful and at ease. May I be happy. May I be happy. So I'll do that while I'm walking, while I'm swimming, in rhythm. And after a year of doing that practice, then you change it from May I to May we. And the we it would be your immediate family for the next year. And so for the first year, you have to build it in yourself before you can share it. Year two, you would do it for your immediate family. And as you progress over time, the Wii gets bigger and bigger until eventually you're doing it for all living beings or for the universe, as you choose. But you have to build that charge. And it's really nice because again, as I said in this one, it's while I'm already walking, it's while I'm already swimming, and it turns any activity into a meditation.

Wow, that is really powerful. It reminds me of some of the shamanic fire ceremonies that I've learned from Alberto Viotto. For the first year, you have to do it by yourself and only under a full moon, and then you can do it for someone else or with a trainer and eventually you can do it for your community and things like that. And it feels though, like a lot of that multi year progression is missing from modern conversations about meditation at large. Do you think that, do you think that this sort of quick fire meditation that a lot of us are doing, for lack of a better word. I have 15 minutes. I'm going to use an app. Do you think it's enough or do you think that really we need to do some more?

I think any opportunity to meditate is good. There's no, there's no bad version and there are no, you know, it's never too short and it's never too easy. It's fine if you, if you do, if you decide to do a three breath meditation, it's great.

The only meditation that hasn't worked for me was meditating on the blood of my enemies. That one did okay.

I've never heard that one.

I'm kidding. I just made it up. But I was like, yeah, there really isn't a bad one. And I was like, I could probably break that because I'm a hacker. And it's, it's one of those things where stop lights for me are, okay, I'll do a box breath or two. And that's really straightforward.

Beautiful. I also, I also really love ice baths. And an ice bath is very much a form of a forced meditation. Yes, there's, there's, I don't know anyone who gets in the ice and is thinking about anything else. It's a, it's a single pointed. You're, you're. It's, it feels like it's life and death, which may be part of its power. I don't know.

Yeah, it is very focusing. That's a fair point. I can't imagine being on the phone in an ice bath.

It wouldn't work. No.

How often do you do ice baths now?

Typically, we'll do. I would say it works out to about five days a week. Sauna and ice.

And you're still doing the Wim Hof breathing with it?

Sometimes.

Sometimes.

It depends. I love Wim Hof breathing. Yeah. It just depends on where I am in my. It's like the routines change all the time. Yeah. But that's one that I love and any opportunity to do helps.

It helps. Beautiful. Five days a week. That is intense. You've also. You've lost 130 pounds. I only lost 100. And I know you've talked about this before, but I think a lot of people listening probably haven't heard that. What happened to cause you to lose £130?

Well, it's. It started I've. I've tried to eat diligently my whole life. So it wasn't out of not doing the work. It was really out of more bad information. Yeah. And. And I was a vegan for 23 years, thinking that that was the healthiest diet I could have. I could have. Yeah. And it was. It was killing me.

Wow.

Yeah, it was really bad. And I remember I went to a Tibetan doctor who is one of the Dalai Lama's doctors, and he did a. He does these.

The pulse wave analysis.

Yes. Six. Six pulse analysis. And he did the six pulse analysis on me. And he said, I want you to leave here and go get some bone broth. This is before I'd ever heard of bone broth. And drink that and you're going to feel better. And I said, I can't do that. I'm a vegan. And he said, you're dying. You need bone broth. And I wouldn't do it because I was a vegan. I was a brainwashed vegan.

Those are some big words, Rick.

I'm telling you, it's the truth. It's the truth.

I was a devout raw vegan for not anywhere near 23 years, but it did make me sick as well. And, like, the enzymes are gonna save me. I'm just gonna eat more raw food. And yeah, I hit a wall maybe faster than you. Maybe I started off less vitality or something, but I appreciate you being willing to just say that because it's true. If a vegan diet really works for someone, just get your lab test and see if it's really working, because it's pretty hard to do that.

Yeah. Okay. I feel bad because as a vegan, I was preaching veganism. You know, it kind of comes with the territory. And then when I started eating meat again, it was really difficult after. After not eating meat for a long time, it's like. It'd be like eating human flesh. So that was a real hump to get over. And it started with. It's a long story. How much of the story do you want to go into?

I think it'd be really valuable for people to hear this.

Okay, we'll talk in order then. So I tried many things. Veganism clearly didn't work. I met a person named Phil Maffetone, who was a human performance expert.

Yeah, I've met Phil. Yeah.

And he worked with Olympic athletes. And I read a book by a guy who ran a thousand miles in 11 days. And I was thinking, well, I have trouble walking to the end of the block. How can someone do this? Like, how is this humanly possible? And I read his book. It was really inspiring. And he talks about how his life was changed when he met this Dr. Phil Maffetone. And then I went online, and this was maybe in web TV days before I even had a computer, and wrote a note to Phil, he said, asked him if he would become my doctor. And he said that he had quit his medical practice because he was retiring and he didn't know who I was, and we didn't really know each other at all. And it turned out he was retiring to become a songwriter. Oh. And I said, well, just so happens that maybe I can help you on the song side and you can help me on the health side, and you can still do it even though you're retiring. And then we met several times for maybe a year, and then eventually came and he moved into my house and lived with me for two years. And I did everything he said, and I got very, very, very healthy, but I still didn't lose weight. I lost maybe five pounds.

So frustrating to go through that.

Yeah. And I did everything. And he said. He said, 99 out of 100 people who have done what you do. And he said, I live with you. I see what you eat. I see the exercise that you do every day. 99 people would lose. Would have lost all the weight immediately for some reason, it's not coming off.

And you weren't sneaking the Snickers bars. And this is what most doctors tell people who don't lose weight. No. It's so. Just irritating and frustrating to be there. So. Okay, so. But you had a witness that you were doing everything right?

No, but at least I felt better. I had more vitality. He changed my circadian rhythm because I used to be up all night and sleep all day. He got me to wake up early in the morning, he got me to sleep longer and better at night. He had me start by adding fish and eggs to my diet which were two things that I never really liked. But he had me add those more as medicine. And he was just trying to get me to have some animal protein in my body. So now I'm healthier version of my 318 pound self. And I went out to lunch with one of my mentors. His name is Mo Austin who a he worked for Frank Sinatra and he ran Warner brothers records for 30 plus years. Signed Jimi Hendrix real a real beautiful person and friend of the artists. And I had lunch with him one day and he said, you know Rick, I'm really getting worried about you. You're getting really big. I'm gonna find a nutritionist. I want you to go to my guy and I want you to do it every day. He said, whatever he says. And I said I'll do that. Knowing it wasn't going to work because I've done everything and nothing works. But I'm open to, you know, I'll follow at his request. But. But it was. There was no belief involved for sure. Yeah. And I went to see this doctor at UCLA and he put me on a diet of seven protein shakes a day and like every two hours and I could have fish soup and salad for dinner. So what it was was a high protein, low carb and low calorie diet. It was definitely a calorie restricted diet, which I'd never done before. I'd done healthy diets but never calorie restricted. And I did what he said and the first three days felt strange and then after that it felt perfectly normal. I went to see him two weeks later and I lost like 13 pounds. Wow. So a lot. And that gave me inspiration to continue and took something like 14 months to lose £130. And it was a great experience. And then from there I switched morphed into eating more real food. In the experimenting I've done with keto, I see again, I believe that the keto diet is healthy for most people for some reason. For me, I do better with more protein than fat.

You're pretty unusual that way. And I know we've talked about it and I'm concerned that I'm seeing some of the aspects of veganism and keto today where it's like if you eat a carb, again, you're a bad person. But don't your gut bacteria sort of need some of those carbs to function? And so the idea of going in and out of it and making sure you're actually eating more vegetables than steaks is pretty important. And it feels like sort of as it becomes popular, that there's both a militancy and lack of paying attention to those little details that are going to make it work long term. Because I know I certainly eat carbs. I just don't eat huge amounts of them, and I don't eat them every day. So you're not in ketosis now. You're pretty much on a high protein, moderate vegetable.

No, I would still say I'm like on the edge. Paleo keto.

Okay.

And I. And for the last, maybe last six months or so, I've been doing intermittent fasting, which I'm really liking.

Yeah.

Was hard to start it, but once I'm in it, I really enjoy it.

It's made a big difference for me too. How about the longer fasts? Like 48 hours?

Never done it. I did it a long time ago back when I was heavy with maybe there was one called a rise and shine. There was several of these cleanse type fasts. But. But I think back then my blood sugar was so unstable that it, that it. It really didn't. I felt sick all the time.

It's torture when you don't have control of your blood sugar. Yeah, that might be something to play around with. I've noticed if I go past 48 hours on a fast, and usually if Lana takes the kids skiing or something for the weekend, I don't really want to do dishes. I love to cook, but I really just. I want to focus, so I choose to do it then. And it's not during the fast early, but it's the day after, and then the day after that where you just. You feel all the inflammation about just kind of slurp away. It's. It's a pretty cool thing, but the first time you do it, you. You want to see what your brain's gonna do. But I found for me, you. I think about food, but I don't crave food because I have control of my blood sugar now, and I would like to see that become a little bit more of a cultural norm.

Yeah.

So I'm putting some stuff together at Bulletproof, where, like, I'll say all right, once a month, like, hey, guys, anyone who wants to join me on this, like, this Monday and Tuesday. Like, I'm not gonna do it when we get on, you know, get on our group chat thing and. And talk about it because it's hard to put words to it. But there's a clarity that comes to me from that that goes beyond what intermittent fasting does. But even that for six months, did it change your weight or did it change your mind? Like, what did you feel from the intermittent fasting?

Definitely got a little leaner.

Okay.

Like the way. I just like the way it feels. And I definitely eat less overall. Yeah. Based on the restricted window, both the timing of it and the desire, like I'm satiated sooner.

Are you avoiding the. The eat after dark sort of thing? Is your eating window only during the day?

No.

Okay.

I start. I usually do. Typically it's noon to 8pm Noonday. Yeah.

That's a very typical one for. For me as well. And I found that if I front load it where I live, it gets dark at like five because I'm up in Canada. So it doesn't always work. But at least during summer, I work on making sure that I'm not eating after dark because there's a circadian timing thing to that. But you don't have to be perfect, right?

No. And I like, if I can have dinner when it's light out, it's a good day. I prefer that.

Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. Preferring it is a great way to put it where you don't have to have it. You also do some more advanced biohacking stuff. What are some of the kind of cool, funky things that. That maybe you think people haven't heard of that you've found value in?

Well, I. Before sleep, I use a. I think it's called. I think it's called cicada. It's a device with two electrodes that go on the forehead.

Oh, interesting.

That, like, calm the brain waves.

Oh, it's a cerebral electrical stimulation device. Okay. Like a Russian sleep machine.

It's called a Fisher Wallace device.

Oh, Fisher Wallace. Yeah, I recommended it on the blog years ago.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's a prescription device that runs the electrical current like the David one. Okay.

So I use that. I use a intranasal red light. Yeah. Violet. Every night. I typically use a traditional sauna, but lately, because we've been moving around a lot, I got a sauna space tent with the red lights. So the beauty of that is I get the sweat of the sauna plus the red light. Right. So it's the biophotomodulation along with the sauna at once, which is nice. I used to use the joovv, which I still like, but there's something about the sweating at the same time. Yeah. Just time wise. It's very efficient.

You and I could both spend 10 hours a day biohacking and not get anything done, and that's the risk. So, like, I love the way you're stacking it. Just like you stack meditation with swimming or walking. Right. You might as well get the benefits. Yes. What about carbogen?

Yeah, Carbogen was a good one. That was something that Dr. Phil Maffetone recommended. It was something that they worked with brain injured kids. And it's a specific amount, a specific.

Mix of oxygen and CO2 without nitrogen.

Yes, oxygen, CO2, but I can't remember what the balance is. Okay.

I don't know. You told me once.

But yeah. And you just inhale it with a mask for maybe 10 or 15 minutes while doing deep belly breathing. And it allows the oxygen to cross the blood brain barrier in a way that oxygen, pure oxygen, can't. So like it. It tricks the system into allowing more oxygen in. And I did that for quite some time. Hyperbaric oxygen. I've done quite a bit more hyperbaric air more than hyperbaric oxygen.

Yeah.

Just the pressure without breathing the oxygen.

Yeah. All the stuff with Laird, like the pool workouts, the, you know, heavy weights underwater, those are the ones that come to mind. There's. I mean, it's endless though. Yeah.

If we go down, it's playing at a certain point, but it's playing that sometimes has a really unusual benefit.

Oh, I wear. I wear blue blockers every night really religiously.

Me too.

I've only red lights in my house. Yeah, yeah, those are the ones that come to mind. But. But I'm sure as we talk more.

Yeah, that's a pretty comprehensive list. I have never talked about carbogen. I think most people in biohacking have never heard of that. So there you go, guys. Go do some googling and figure this out. There'll probably be carbon clinics and in another six weeks after this episode. But I did try it that one time and it did something good. Oxygen wise, it felt a little bit like the thing that we do. We call it intermittent hypoxic training at upgrade labs where you work out and you're breathing air that has no oxygen, the oxygen is removed. So the brain just goes into panic, like open the floodgates for oxygen and then you switch over after you've tricked the brain to breathing Pure oxygen. So it can raise the levels of oxygen in the brain by 26 times more than normal. And there's a sort of a feeling that was similar between carbogen and that, except you're riding on an exercise bike when you're doing this in the lab. So you have like the heart pounding and all that versus just sort of the peaceful, relaxed, oxygenated brain. Which might be better for creativity, to be honest.

Not sure. But I've also done, you know, the assault bike wearing a. Wearing a.

A flow restrictor mask.

Yeah, flow restrictor mask. And then we've done the altitude rest, the blowing into the tube to create the altitude feeling.

Yes. What's that called? I have one of those. Alto lab. Yeah, yeah. And by the way, that is one of the coolest things. I was talking with Brian and the guy who's an astrophysicist guy who almost got the Nobel Prize for discovering gravity waves, and he's saying, I have this telescope in Chile at 19,200ft. How do I get people acclimated? I said, alta lab. And it's a cool thing. And I actually may start doing it again because I'm now flying on a plane that only pressurizes to almost 10,000ft. And I want my brain to work. And the idea here is you breathe this little tube for an hour a day for 15 days, and suddenly you're acclimated to. Or maybe it's for 20 days, but you're suddenly acclimated to 15,000ft. And it came out of the Russian space program so astronauts could sleep less, so they could do more work and they could use less fuel to get them into space. And this oxygen restriction device came from the Russian military saying, well, it's expensive to pressurize a jet fighter. Why don't we just make our pilots pressure agnostic? And so they're literally hacking the human body. There's. They're doing crazy peptides. And some of the very best work that's been most impactful in anti aging is straight out of Russian 1980s research.

Tell me a little bit about peptides. I know very little other than I understand. It's the new rage.

Well, there's a bunch of different peptides, and they're essentially short chains of amino acids. You look at amino acids as individual letters, and when you string them together, you can get a word as like one little peptide. And when you string a bunch of sentences together into a book and you've got a steak. So peptides are sometimes just two or three amino acids stuck Together in a certain way. And they're very potent signaling molecules in the body and what the Russians did. And actually this is in the book I was editing on the way down here, my next anti aging book. They're getting peptides from young animals, extracting them in ways from agriculture, and making these little capsules you can take that are targeted at certain organ systems to make them younger. And that stuff works. It's pretty crazy.

And they're oral?

Those are oral, yeah. And they're not particularly cheap. It's about 60 bucks for a month supply of one. But there's one for male performance. Essentially it's, you know, gonads of. You can tell if you take that the next morning. Like okay, I noticed that and I don't think that's placebo. And there's a bunch of actually good research, but half it's not even translated. And this has been going on for 30, 40 years and they're carefully working on it. But the idea here is if we can do that, we can make peptides in laboratories now that are identical to those and, and manufacture them. And once we acknowledge that they work or we do more research on them, then it becomes something, oh wait, maybe we could all get young animal growth signals.

What if there was something you could add to your water to make you perform better, have more energy and protect your cells from damage? Hydrogen is the smallest molecule in the universe and the only one that can get deep inside your cells. Mitochondria in even your DNA. It fuels energy production, crushes oxidative stress and supports sharper brain function. Hydrogen's a gas, so you can't take it as a pill. So you either have to breathe it in or infuse it into your water. But your tap, bottled or filtered water doesn't have it. That's why I use the Echo flask. Echo Flask is a hydrogen generator that uses advanced electrolysis and a proprietary proton exchange membrane to infect. Fuse your water with pure hydrogen. No chemicals, no ph change, just therapeutic science backed hydrogen. I've noticed more energy, faster recovery, less inflammation and mental clarity that lasts all day. Go to ecowater.com dave and use code DAVE.10 for 10% off your Echo flask. You'll feel the difference in days. Right now your body might be wasting energy on stress instead of healing. That's why your gut feels off, your brain feels dull, and your immune system. Immune system keeps letting you down. What if you could switch your healing state back on without meds, stimulants or guesswork? Vibrant blue Oil's parasympathetic essential oil blend is a powerful, non invasive way to activate your nervous system and shift your body into healing mode just through scent. A drop behind your ears can help switch off your stress response, calm inflammation and support digestion, detox and immune function. And it can even help clear up your stubborn brain fog. It's natural, easy to use, and thousands of happy customers already love it. And right now, the Human Upgrade podcast listeners can grab a full size Bottle for over 50% off at vibrantblueoils.com Dave that's vibrantblueoils.com Dave don't wait to start feeling like yourself again.

Another one that's really powerful, your thymus gland. It gets old very quickly. In fact, by the time you're a young adult, it's mostly gone. Yet it's tied to your immunity. So there's a peptide called TB500 that I've been using for quite a while. And you can, you can get this stuff. It's not considered a drug or a medicine. It's not for human use. It's in a gray zone. And what TB500 does is it replicates the immune stuff that happens from a healthy thymus. And there's another one for the pineal gland. So instead of taking a gland from an animal which might have viruses or whatever other weird stuff, you're getting a laboratory made protein fragment that's exactly like what would come off of there. And epitalon, the pineal one is tied with a lengthening of the telomeres, a very substantial one. I have several friends who have used it and seen their scores change dramatically on a telomere test. My only little asterisk on that one would be blood telomeres flop all over the place on a regular basis. So it's not a very reliable indicator that it worked. But certainly going back for at least 20 years, there's solid research on this compound and I would consider it a part of an advanced anti aging stack. And there are other ones for wound healing, like BPC157, which is another one where if you have something that just isn't getting better, knee or whatever, it's a healing gastric peptide. And for people who have GI issues in particular, you can take it orally and it'll reverse Crohn's disease in some studies. So if your gut's all inflamed, you take some of that. And in fact, I did it last week. I, I am cautious around fermented foods. Some fermented foods are Good for you. But it's okay if they're not. They don't work for everyone, especially if you have just whatever's going on with your genetics. So I made a fermented rice. It's something called mochi, comes from Japan. And I actually have a Japanese mochi maker. So if I want to eat some carbs, it's cooked in cooled rice resistant starch. And you can, it's culinary wise, it's awesome stuff. They wrap around ice cream, right? But I fermented it with some special yeast that's good for you. And I reused the water and something bad grew in there. I don't know what it was, but I ate this stuff and it tasted amazing. And then my gut is wrecked in a way it has not been wrecked in a long time. And I said, all right, what am I going to do on this stuff? So I cracked open a vial of BPC157 and I took some because it's a gastric healing peptide. And I got better really fast.

Amazing.

So I'll. In fact, there's a blog post on these, I believe, if I'll get you the info on them, please. And for. If you're, if you're listening to this, I will put up another post or I'll highlight this post in the show notes for you because these are things where your doctor is probably not going to tell you about them. I do know doctors who will use either one of those compounds intravenously, but they won't ever advertise that or tell you that they do that. But they'll either use it on themselves or on their special patients. But because it works and because the science is solid, even if it's not approved. And part of my goal in doing this show is I want to talk about that stuff because it'll increase demand, which will increase research. And someone out there will fund research in order to make it happen. And there's times when you just fund research because it needs to be done, not because there's a patent. I helped to fund research at University of Washington around basic water chemistry with Gerald Pollock around the fourth phase of water.

Great.

And there's no money to be made in that. I just wanted to understand it. And what he found was magic. If there's tiny droplets of butter fat suspended in water, it makes exclusions on water like there. This is what the Tibetans were doing with their yak butter tea. They didn't have enough energy to use their mitochondrial heat to transform water, which is how we do it normally. So they did it with a butter churn ahead of time. They didn't know why it worked. Just like your conversation about music. They just knew they felt good. Yes, I knew I felt good when I tried it there and I came back and I didn't know that was a mechanism in bulletproof coffee. But it turns out I funded the research because I wanted to know.

Yes, speaking of water, I also did maybe six months of only deuterium depleted water.

Did you notice anything from that?

I don't know. I don't know. But I that said, I'll do it again.

You know, deuterium is one of those things. I almost put it in headstrong and I've also experimented. And if you're listening, going due to what water? Deuterium is a heavy isotope of hydrogen, the so called heavy water. And it's used mostly in the nuclear industry. And it turns out there's about 160 parts per million of deuterium. And areas where there's a little bit more in the groundwater, there tends to be more disease. And deuterium clogs up your mitochondrial function. So there's a theory out there that says if you drink deuterium depleted water and get ready to spend, you're going to spend a couple grand a month on this water. And if you do that for a while, your mitochondria are supposed to work better, angels will sing and all sorts of good things happen. And I didn't put it in the book because the roi on deuterium depleted water, it's not there. You spend so much time, I'm only going to drink this water, only going to cook vegetables. And by the way, food fats don't have deuterium issues, but carbs do. And if they're grown in a high deuterium environment, they do. So I actually even paid consultants to go out and find deuterium processes around the world and to see if I could make it affordable. But end of the day I cannot feel a difference from that. And I know what good mitochondrial function feels like because you can manipulate it with other compounds like nad. So I look at that as if I was incredibly rich and dying of cancer, I'd be all over that deuterium. But otherwise I, I'm not certain that it meets the bar for worth the effort. But if you just said it turned your brain on and angels actually did sing, I'd have listened.

Yeah, I don't, Yeah, I don't know yet. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do more research. Yeah, Think of which other ones. And obviously things like the OURA ring. Tracking. Yeah, tracking is good.

I've been wearing the OURA ring for a long time. And you're tracking sleep for 10 plus years with EEG and things. And what I noticed. Rick, that's really cool. I did that whole body stem cell makeover recently where I had stem cells in the brain, spinal cord, every joint in the body, like everywhere. It was. It was a pretty intense thing. But afterwards, my sleep quality is. Is different. I mean, like noticeably different. I'm putting together my talk for the Bulletproof conference, which is. I think this episode is going to come out after the conference, but it's happening in the next day or two. And I took a screenshot of one of these because it was ridiculous. I slept. Here we go. Yeah, I slept five hours and 54 minutes. So a little bit less than six hours of sleep, but I got two hours and 23 minutes of REM and two hours and 20 minutes of deep sleep.

Incredible.

And these are scores in eight hours that you might get when you're 20.

Yeah, right.

And holy crap, these are breaking records for me. And I've been tracking for a long time. And I think that the stuff the stem cells did in my brain, my nervous system, really did do it. But I'm stacking it, like you said. I'm blocking the blue lights. I have a glasses company that does that stuff and I take all the sleep stack stuff that I've written about. This is when I'm dialed in and my room's dark and every little advantage I can get. But still, this, for me, even five, six years ago, if I got a half hour of deep sleep, I was pretty happy.

Yeah, right.

Because I came from an inflamed, unhealthy perspective.

So I feel like I still don't get that much deep. I get a lot of REM and a little bit of deep. It could be as little as five minutes. It could be. I mean, on a good day, it'll be an hour, but not more. But I've had five hours of REM on some nights.

Wow, five hours. I've never hit five hours, so. Well, you're such a creative guy. I mean, so much creativity does happen in rem. I mean, there's so much communicating and stuff going on there. Wow. So how do you hack that? I guess at a certain point you have to start looking at human growth hormone, because if you never get deep sleep, your growth hormone levels will be low clinically. And then maybe supplementing it's a good idea. But I know that requires, you know, the small insulin needles, which aren't your favorites.

No.

So.

Huh.

Well, maybe there's. Well, there's oral. Actually, there's oral peptides that raise growth hormone levels that might be there for you.

Wow, that sounds good.

All right, I am going to. I'm going to double check which are the ones I'm thinking of here. But I'll hook you up afterwards just with the name of it, because I think that just from a very selfish perspective, Rick, I would like you to keep doing cool music so I can listen to it. So we got to give you many, many more years of functioning at the level you are.

I'm ready.

I want to go back to something you said earlier. You mentioned about the meta meditation. You mentioned loving kindness. That's something you focus on. How do you define loving kindness?

What comes up is related to something that I wanted to mention, and it's another side of it. It's a little bit like praying. And we didn't cover praying in the stack.

Right, right.

But I include prayer. I look for opportunities to use prayer. So, for example, if we pray before meals, it's a great opportunity because we know we eat a couple of times a day. Right. So if we're praying before meals or if we pray when we wake up or if we pray when we go to sleep, we're doing those things every day. So if we can tie the practice to something, we're already doing it. Wow. I just had great deja vu just now in the light changed. We've had this conversation before. That was amazing. Amazing. So, so, and. And in prayer, it's. It's not asking for anything. It's more like an agreement to be a humble servant and to have each. Have. Have each step be for the highest good for all. And I think of loving kindness in that way.

Okay. One of the meditations, or maybe you could call it a prayer that I do is I'll say, thank you for using me today. And I don't have to be rational about it. I don't have to know why it works, but if I do that, it just seems like it's a better day. And I don't actually define who I'm talking to, who's using me that day. So when you pray, are you praying to a specific, you know, deity of choice or.

Not specific, just the universe. Yes. Okay. Yes. I am your vehicle. I'll do your will. Please guide me for the highest good.

Yeah. And I love it that you talk about that. And that's the side of biohacking that I think sometimes gets lost in the ego of, you know, I grew abs or, you know, I mean, have the highest performing brain. You gotta ask, okay, you have the world's highest performing brain. What are you gonna do with it?

Right?

And it's that loving kindness aspect that you talked about that certainly I picked up in Tibet when I was there to learn meditation. And in some of the neurofeedbackers, the other experiences I've had on shamanic training, where if you're missing that sense of mission or even just sense of service, even if it's not mission based, you probably won't have the biomarkers that you want to tie it right back to ego. Something isn't going to work out the way that it otherwise could. And that's the one that's hardest to explain to people like you and me who are gathering data, but you've clearly noticed that. And I've picked that up in my own life as well. And I love that we can talk about that. And you know, just put it, put it on the air. Because if you're listening to the show right now and you're saying, well, you know, that's stuff's a bunch of crap, you know, why would these crazy people pray? You know, there is no God or whatever, it doesn't matter if there's a God, right? What's going on is the act of praying does something to your neurology or to your soul, whatever you want to call it, that makes you better.

And gratitude, practice, we know that it works. Yeah, we know that it works. Science proves that it works, right?

Yeah, you can science your gratitude. How do you practice gratitude?

It depends. In the past, I've used a gratitude journal. It can be included in the, in the, in the meal prayers, right? Those are the ones that come to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

Okay, I've got two more questions for you, Rick. One of them has to do with failure. How do you handle things when you absolutely fail at something?

I always think about it in terms of. I start with the idea that everything we do is an experiment. So the stakes are. Oh, I try to keep in my mind. I always try to think of the stakes being very low for everything and that it's all an experiment and we're just playing. We're just here to play. So if something works, I know. Okay. That experiment didn't work in the way that I thought it might, but taught me something I learned. Okay, If I Want to do this thing. That's not the way to do it. And now I can try this other method. I guess it's more of just a mindset of using all. Thinking of it as feedback and taking the feedback and using it to the. For the highest good. Whatever. Whatever that is.

Got it. So you depersonalize it. Okay.

Yeah.

And the final question for you is one I've been asking as the sort of the new question on bulletproof radio now that game Changers is out and I got that big data set. Although, man, I'd kind of like to ask you that question too. But the new one is how long do you want to live? And how long do you think you're going to live? Because I'm writing about anti aging and potential immortality.

What, what do you.

What's your take on that?

I'd like to live as long as possible. I don't have a number in mind. I suppose I'd like to live in a healthy way as long as possible. Even more so. But also I follow the universe's intention for me. And what. Wherever it leads, it leads. Yeah. I've enjoyed the time that I've had and I look forward to enjoying more. And whenever it's done, it's done.

It's a very Buddhist perspective.

Right.

I like to say that I like to die at a time and by a method of my choosing.

That's a good one.

So there's always an out.

That's nice. But.

But also, you know, if I'm not supposed to be here, I'll probably get the message.

Right.

And then things work out.

Yeah.

Which is a lot of people sort of, you know, rage against the dying of the light sort of thing. But I'm not convinced that rage to live longer is a good strategy.

But no. And I can remember I had a friend whose mom had a very serious cancer and she was really committed to beating the cancer. And she did everything she could do, both alternative wise and western, to beat it. And it went on for years and it became sort of the focus of her life. And then I ran into her one day and there was a calmness about her and it was. It was like she was a different per. Before she was this vigilant person fighting for something. And now she was this. It was like something she'd shifted and she said, I know I'm gonna pass and it's okay and I'm at peace. And it seems that something happens when we know that we're gonna pass that makes it okay. It's like I don't know if it's a chemical process or if. Or if it's purely a spiritual process. I don't know how. Or maybe. Maybe it's both. Could be both.

A little bit of DMT comes in and you see whatever's going on. And I've witnessed that as well from a family friend who was dying of a brain tumor. He'd come over and use my hyperbaric chambers. Like, I meditate in there. This is great. And it would make his brain work well enough to spend more time with his family. But he fought and then decided, okay, I'm done. But there was a level of peace and just like, happiness and being with the community, and it was really a blessing to be able to see that shift because it was very dramatic. So, yeah, there's something there.

Like 20 years ago or so, my appendix burst and I didn't go to the hospital and I never had it removed. So there's a certain. I don't know. I didn't believe I was going to die from that experience. I got really sick, I bet. Boy, I can't tell you how sick I was. But I also found that when I get really sick, really creative thoughts come.

Yeah, that makes sense. You kind of hallucinate almost.

Yeah.

Wow, Rick, I feel like we could chat for hours, and doubtlessly we will, but not on the mic. Thank you for being a guest on Bulletproof Radio, for sharing your knowledge, your wisdom and your music and the music, music of the people you work with, with the world. It's had a profound impact on me long before, long before I met you, and I'm grateful for our friendship and for you being on the show.

Great. Thank you so much and I look forward to doing it again.

See you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast.

The Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider carefully read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.