Steroids, Gene Therapy, Peptides: The Future of ENHANCED Sports with Aron D’Souza : 1215

This belief system is toxic. It leads to the big pharma ownership of your soul.

One of the most political and corrupt organizations ever imagined by the world was.

There like one, one person who drove all this insanity.

They would foil bulls testicles and ingest them as a performance enhancing drug. They have to pull their pants down below their knees, expose their genitals and urinate in full view of a drug testing officer.

It's gross and it's offensive. Are you using human enhancements right now? You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Today is an interview that I've been dreaming about for like 20 years. And if you go way back in time to the start of the show, I did an interview called the Doper Next Door from a science journalist who did something naughty. He used normal testosterone replacement in his 40s to improve his athletic performance, but because he was a racer, he was kind of like, I'm a doper. And I was like, is that it? And I have said for years that it's cruel and unusual to allow athletes to compete without having appropriate levels of hormones so that they can heal and recover the way that's possible. And that people like me, who is not a professional athlete, do on a daily basis. And what this has done is it's caused most professional athletes to have shorter careers than they should, not perform as well as they should. And the people who go out of their way to use biohacking, people like Nick Foles, who's been on the show, or the Bryan brothers who've also been on the show, who do extreme biohacking, but without using all the performance enhancements available because of rules made in the 1970s by Angry, I think angry chain smoking cat ladies are in charge of limiting athletic performance. And I've had enough of that. It's gross and it's offensive. And I've been dreaming, like, what would happen if we actually took the shackles off of humanity? What would happen if we said, hey, you can do whatever you want as long as you share what you're doing so that all humans can learn from you. And I was like, maybe this is never going to happen, but it's actually happening. And our guest today, Aaron d', Souza, is making it happen. This is the future of human advancement in sports. And I know I've already triggered a bunch of people and I'm just going to tell you, if you can be triggered, you're carrying a loaded gun. You should see a therapist. This is a serious conversation about ethics, about possibility, and about human Freedom and freedom over your own autonomy. And the reason Aaron is doing this is that he created the Enhanced Games, which is just allowing athletes to do what they want to perform better when they know the risk. And yes, there's risk. Newsflash. Professional sports are dangerous.

If we were about, let's be safe.

We would ban professional sports altogether. So if you're willing to let someone have a potential traumatic brain injury, but not use technology that might help them fix it or prevent it, I think you might have to look in the mirror a little bit. So I'll get off my soapbox on that. You can tell I'm kind of a fan of this. Aaron, welcome to the show. Thanks for doing something great.

Well, thank you very much for having me on your show, Dave.

It's.

It's an honor.

What made you dream up the Enhanced Games?

Dave? I'm a voracious reader, and for 20 years, I've been studying the Olympic movement and international sports. I start, I started my life, you know, going to college and shortly after the Sydney Olympics in Australia. And I always thought to myself, this Olympics thing, it's really interesting, but there's a few core problems with it. And there were two key pieces of literature that really struck out, struck out at me. 1,44% of Olympic athletes admit to using banned performance enhancing substances, yet only 1% get called. And that's according to research funded by the, by the International Olympic Committee and the World Anti Doping Agency. And number two, the average Olympian in the United States only earns about $30,000 a year. Yet the top officials in the Olympic movement earn millions of dollars a year. They fly around the world in private jets, and the president of the International Olympic Committee literally lives in a palace. And so I thought, this is a high inequality system. There's a lie at the center of it. And so why don't we think about how we can do this better and create a better, more fair system for sports.

I love how you're wrapping this in fairness because it is about fairness. One of the things that always drives me crazy, it's like, oh, look at this person from a very wealthy country with high tech, low drag suit and a $2 million bicycle. Go up against someone riding an aluminum bike and. And of course, technology, of course, spending, it changes things. And why some kinds of technology are acceptable, but some aren't. No one can tell you why. What is the excuse for limiting the recovery and performance of humans by stopping them from doing things that the rest of us do for health?

That's exactly right. And you know, the fans of the world may think that performance enhancing drugs are illegal, but in fact, again, according to research funded by the International Olympic Committee, 25% of the goods on the shelf at your local GNC will get you banned from Olympic competition. The vast majority of performance enhancements are legal. They are available over the counter under clinical supervision. And even something as simple as creatine was a banned substance in the 90s. There was an absolute moral panic in the late 90s over creatine. It was called in the New York Times a super steroid and attributed roid rage to creatine, which today you can, you know, get in your protein shake and show in the juice. It's absolutely outrageous.

Even something controversial like ghb. GHB is something you could buy at any bodybuilding store. In the 80s and early 90s, and about the day Ambien hit the market, GHB was banned by press release with no law actually being passed. They turn it into a date rape drug. It's. You need a lot of this very salty substance to do that. And it turns out that that's not what very bad people use, if that's what they want to do. They, they use stronger drugs for that. But this is something that raises growth hormone dramatically and causes recovery and profound sleep. And it's something a lot of athletes used. And that one got banned from everyone for commercial reasons, even though it was just an over the shelf, non prescription item until one day. And there's an underlying assumption that a government or a sporting body has the right to tell you what you get to put in your own body. Where did that belief come from?

It's an interesting belief and from. I always point out that from 1896, when the Olympics was founded, until 1992, amateur athletes were the touchstone of sport. And in 1992 they gave up on that and allowed professional athletes, if you were a professional, they viewed that as being a cheater against the spirit of sport ungentlemanly. And sport can change. And I think this transition from amateur sport, professional sport, is exactly near to what is happening now from natural sport to enhanced sport. And I can see a world in which we have two parallel sporting systems. An enhanced world where it's faster, it's modern and a legacy ancient Greek focus world of natural sport. And there is a place for natural sport. But when we say natural, let's make it natural. Like get rid of the super suits and the special shoes and make it a true competition, like the ancient Greeks had in ancient Olympia and let technology, and let science, and let engineering reach its full potential. Right? It is unbelievable that a bunch of Swiss sports bureaucrats could put an arbitrary cap on the development of performance medicines nearly 40 years ago with the creation of the World Anti Doping Authority. And that line has not changed like technology has changed, safety has changed, cardiac monitoring has improved dramatically. And we should be able to do to our bodies what we wish. And this is the fundamental principle of the Enhanced Games. Adults with free and informed consent are sovereign over their own body. And no one, no government, no sporting federation should be able to tell us what we can and cannot do with our own bodies.

Very well said. And I, I could not agree more. If you want to have the freedom to biohack, and that is to have control over your own biology, it's very helpful to not need a permission slip from someone else who doesn't even think it's possible. The extreme longevity stuff that I'm into, I'm planning to live to at least 180 and I'm making good progress on that. I already have to navigate around government limitations and there's no reason for them because I, like you said, I'm sovereign. So for people who aren't professional athletes, you're listening to the show, or aren't Olympic athletes, this belief system is toxic. It leads to the Big Pharma ownership of your soul, essentially. And you have this right. And if someone claims it, they're simply wrong. And I think that they should be treated that way.

And Dave, I think it's important to note what the rules that are imposed upon Olympic athletes actually are. They have to report their whereabouts every single day to the World Anti Doping Agency. They have to be able to submit to a random drug test at any time of day, day or night, whether they're in competition or not. You know, they have to pull their pants down below their knees, expose their genitals and urinate in full view of a drug testing officer. Right. It is a bureaucracy that has gone mad, all in the name of fairness. And this, this is an absolutely ridiculous system that has failed time and time again. And I point out again, 44% of elite athletes admit to using banned performance enhancing substances, yet only 1% get caught. And the reason why is that the drug testing itself is pharmacologically and chemically ineffective, because the World Anti Doping Agency does not have the calibration data necessarily to actually calibrate its test correctly. Because they don't have a group of high performance athletes openly disclosing what they're on. And so that they can get the data necessary to calibrate their tests.

What kind of transparency are you requiring in the enhanced Games?

Well, you know, transparency is a complicated question because ultimately to say we, we believe in the sovereign rights of individuals, but the right to medical privacy is also a very important part of what we are doing. So for example, there are banned drugs on the on the Olympics list that are mental health medications. So should we mandate that every compound that an athlete is taking be disclosed? I think there are actually some limitations to that. However, there are commercial incentives for athletes to disclose what they're taking. It's good social media content, it's great communicative content. And we're creating an environment, a safe space of transparency and honesty where there are no penalties. And we make it so that there should be no reason why anyone shouldn't feel the need to disclose what they are using.

Got it. So there's a financial incentive in the enhanced Games. How do people make money?

Well, they'll make a lot more money than the Olympic Games. So commentator aren't. Yeah, it's a low bar. Yeah. So every athlete will be paid base compensation and then there will be prize money up to a quarter of a million dollars for winning a gold medal and a million dollars for setting a world record. And so Our aspiration is 10x the compensation for as compared to the Olympic Games.

Is the World Anti Doping Agency a nonprofit or is it a private company?

Well, it's technically a non profit, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is a fair organization. So the World Anti Doping Agency is effectively a subsidiary of the International Olympic Committee. And the Olympic Committee elects itself, and this is really important to note, it is not accountable to the athletes of the world or to the governments. It is literally a self perpetuating bureaucracy that is one of the most political and corrupt organizations ever imagined by the world. Bribery scandal after bribery scandal decade after decade at the absolute highest levels. And somehow the Olympics continues to exploit host cities in particular by convincing them to pay for billions of dollars of infrastructure. You can go to Athens or Rio or London and you can see the ruins of Olympic excess. And the core problem about the Olympic Games is that they build a dozen stadiums and then they throw them away after two weeks. It is literally one of the most wasteful exercises in human history.

Wow. So I guess you couldn't just grow so big that you could acquire the Olympics.

There's certainly a possibility of that one day. But I'm rooting for, you know, but, but, but, but Dave like, why would Uber want to acquire the taxi cabs? Why would Netflix want to acquire Blockbuster?

That's a burn.

We're building a fresh sports stack on new rails from the ground up.

I like that view.

The Olympics are the ultimate avenue of human competition and something very beautiful to see that high level of competition. The Olympic Committee has never had competition until we created the Enhanced Games. And they're afraid of that competition. And I believe we will win.

That's a beautiful way of putting it. And my mother was actually invited to train to be an Olympic swimmer and turned it down when she was young. And I've interviewed multiple Olympic athletes and Olympic trainers, and it's one of those things, like running a marathon, where it is a pinnacle of performance. It's just a pinnacle of performance wrapped around a very bitter and nasty bureaucratic sandwich. And I want the athletes to be set free both for recovery and for enhancement. I see a lot of pro athletes who come into upgrade labs where we're not using any pharmaceuticals to enhance recovery. So if you're lucky enough to have access to advanced technologies, that's great. But if you don't, then it might take you three times longer to recover. Or you could have used a peptide that's been around forever that just sped healing. So how do you draw the line between things like bioidentical testosterone replacement to get yourself up to healthy levels for a young person versus, like, you know, quadrupling your testosterone and stacking a bunch of growth hormone and swelling up your organs and doing some other stuff that might have long term effects?

Yeah. So let's be very clear. The current anti doping system is about fairness. It's not about safety. We have designed a system that's focused on the health and the safety of our athletes. And that starts with a comprehensive health assessment. And so every athlete who's competing has to pass a health assessment. So echocardiograms, blood work, MRI to make sure they don't have enlarged organs, they're not at risk of cardiac failure. And that's really what the Olympics should be doing. They should be comprehensively health screening every athlete before competition and excluding them from competition. Whether or not they're using substances or not, it should be based on whether they're healthy to compete. And that's the best quality science and medicine. And that data we can use to inform new clinical discoveries and pushing the boundaries of humanity.

I'm glad you said that. That's the reason I'm most interested in the Enhanced Games is I want to know what's possible and how they did it because a lot of the most advanced biohacking knowledge that I have, it's this mix of professional athletics, special forces where they're willing to do whatever it takes for their people, extreme neuroscience and extreme longevity. And you bring all this together and you realize, wow, there's all almost unlimited potential that we haven't tapped into, in part because no one knows it's possible except for these little pockets. And then it's exceptionally expensive.

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So we're talking about safety here. What's the difference in the Enhanced Games if you're someone from a country where a lot of the stuff isn't legal or it's just terribly expensive and inaccessible versus I'm going to somewhere with freedom. Like this is going to sound funny, but there are some small countries like Costa Rica and there's actually incredible medical freedom right now in Abu Dhabi. Like so maybe you fly there because you're rich or you're just from there and you have all this amazing access. How do you, how do you draw the line there around accessibility to enhancement technologies?

Well, so number one, every athlete is going to be paid by us. So you have to think of it more like a baseball team than like Olympic sport. Like we, we manage our athletes and their performance. However, the countries that you've mentioned, many of which I spend a lot of time in, create will create competitive tension. So if you're a progressive country like Abu Dhabi or Costa Rica and have the best enhancement laws and supporting scientific research and development, you're going to win more gold medals and countries that are regressive, like Australia or Europe will fall behind. And that competitive tension will lead to an illustration of what countries are going to be healthier and stronger for longer. And you know the evidence that I always give is that ozempic has added $1 trillion to the market capitalization of Novo Nordisk and Eli Lilly in The United States 83% of the time it's prescribed off label as an image enhancement drug for weight loss purposes, not for its on label purpose of just diabetes. So $1 trillion Ozempic, if you add up all the value of the generative AI startups including OpenAI, they're only worth about 300 billion. So one enhancement drug is worth 3x of AI, right? That's how large this industry is. And I've been dealing with cities, many cities that are bidding to host the Games at the moment. And the pitch that I give to government ministers all over the world is a very simple one. San Francisco is the permanent capital of AI. New York is the permanent capital of finance. Taiwan and the world may go to war over. This is the permanent capital of semiconductors. And the city that hosts the Enhanced Games will become the permanent capital of human enhancement, which is the largest industry in the world that does not have a capital city. It can be worth trillions of dollars to a country's gdp.

I Think you should come to Austin. There's a lot of biohackers here.

I might be in Austin in a couple of weeks time. I'll let you know.

Nice. Let's talk about some of the enhancements that you're excited about for athletes. Talk to me about gene therapy.

Well, you know, there are many advanced therapies that, that can push boundaries for athletes. However, I think it's actually the ones that have the longest and most proven track record. So it's synthetic growth hormones, epo, anabolic steroids. And the reason these aren't used by athletes is because these are the compounds that have the most effective drug testing because they have the longest clinical track record. Things like gene therapy. Peptides are becoming very popular among athletes now because there isn't good quality testing for them by the World Anti Doping Agency and the evidence of efficacy is limited. But I always want to stress the choice of enhancements is an individual one. What could enhance a hundred meter sprinter is very different to a marathon runner, which is very different to a cyclist. Age, sporting discipline, gender are all contributing factors. And it's a individualized approach more than anything else.

It's going to have to be individualized. Everything that I do for longevity is personalized. And it's funny, I did a podcast about gene therapy a while ago and, and thousands of people were like, I'm, I'm interested in doing what you just did, Dave. And guys, that's daveasprey.com gene therapy. To listen to that episode and understand I, I took nine years off of my biological age with a single injection. And that's just the first of many that are coming from that company. I'm actually advising them now called Mini Circle. And I, I look at this and I say, man, for our athletes, we want to do this. A long time ago Liz Parrish was on and talked about similar technologies. So these are cutting edge. But you're talking about not even controversial things like.

Well, it's very controversial in the sports world. Yeah, I can, I can tell you, I can, I can show you the, the book of headlines that the media has written about me. There's been a lot of criticism in the legacy media. There's also been a lot of interest in the Enhanced Games. But ultimately the, the compounds that I think that will make the most difference are those that have a long clinical record. But I look forward to unlocking human potential through science and technology because ultimately there is no ceiling at the Enhanced Games. And that ceiling has been there for a generation in the Olympics. And we can really see this in world records. The 50 freestyle world record in the pool was set 15 years ago. The Mao world record is over 25 years old. Usain Bolt's world record is I believe 14 years old now. And you know, why can't human beings be increasing in performance year on year? You know, we're building better rockets, faster supercomputers, better AI, but are we as humans progressing even the best humans? That's kind of a sad thought.

The core belief behind biohacking is, you know, upgrade yourself and that hackers used to upgrade our computers before that, you know, we would upgrade our cars, right? That was what you would do in the 70s or even back in the 50s. And you spend a bunch of time enhancing something. And the final frontier is enhancing, I think first your biology and then your consciousness. And I'm all in on all of that stuff. And I look at the Enhanced Games as being, you know, front and center for saying, well what's, what's possible instead of what's possible. When you do something that I think is actually cruel. You tell these people you're working to be your very best, but you can't use these things right in front of you. It's like taking a starving person and waving bacon in front of them, but telling them you can't have bacon or you can't do what you love. And I, I'm just, I'm so disgusted by that whole thing that I still respect Olympic athletes achievements, like why did we make them, you know, wear a weighted vest when they did it?

Just by limiting time and sports isn't fair. Let's be honest, you know, I'm 5 foot 10, I'm never going to play in the NBA, right? Some people have won the genetic lottery. But why can't we use science to overcome our genetic limitations? And ultimately, you know, I really appreciate what you have done and people like Brian Johnson and you know, David Sinclair and George Church and so many other eminent figures, but this is still very much almost an elite movement. I see that the billionaires like Jeff Bezos, Larry Ellison are probably enhanced, but your average person on the street doesn't even know this exists. It's almost a secret. And I hope the Enhanced Games take something that like extreme longevity, which might take a century or more to prove and distill it down to a format that can fit into a 10 second TikTok and imagine how. And I actually think the greatest gift that I can give to humanity is not just breaking a world record or breaking the same bolts world Record, but would be for a 30, 40, 50, maybe even a 60 year old enhanced athlete to run faster than Usain Bolt. And I think the pinnacle of my career will be when a 65 year old human can run faster than the fastest natural human. Because I'm not sure if, you know, the age of 65 as the arbitrary retirement age was invented by Napoleon. And at that time, virtually no one got to age 65. And those that did had about three years of retirement ahead of them. And now we have 30 years. And why should we say at 65 we're no longer capable, no need to be sent out to pasture. And I think at the Enhanced Games, we can really challenge that notion. And it's amazing to see athletes who are in the second phase of their career. They're in their early 30s to mid-30s, they're washed up Olympic athletes, and they're saying, you know what, I want to come back and have a second shot and use these really well documented technologies to improve performance and be at world record potential.

Talk to me about cognitive enhancement versus physical enhancement. Is there a role for that in the Enhanced Games?

Yeah. So, you know, you'll probably be more knowledgeable about the pharmacology of all of this than I am. But according to research that I, I've read, 75% of classical musicians use beta blockers. These are a banned substance under the World Anti Doping Code, would get you kicked out of Olympic competition or even just running, you know, the, the New York Marathon, you know. Yet these are used so commonly among musicians, opera singers, et cetera, to increase their focus. And I think there are so many other cognitive enhancements that can truly make an impact upon athletes. Because as much as it is a physical endeavor, high performance athleticism is also a mental one.

And there's such a, such a difference you can make in reaction time in people. Even things like a higher dose of caffeine is banned, which has great athletic effects. You can use things like microdose, pharmaceutical nicotine that affects things. I don't know if that's banned or not. Probably not, but I would sure want to be.

I'm not sure about nicotine, but high doses of caffeine were banned until very recently. And in some sports they are. Well, in Olympic sport, but in some other sports it is still banned. And I actually, in one of the very first media interviews I ever gave, was debating with Piers Morgan, who's a very aggressive interviewer, and he said to me, aaron, this is, this is just cheating, right? You know, you're allowing Drugs in sport. And he had a cup of coffee on the TV set. I said, piers, should the government, should a regulator, should a. An unaccountable bureaucracy be able to tell you how much caffeine you can and cannot drink? And he was like, of course not. Well, that's exactly what the International Olympic Committee and its cronies do.

What did he say that's so good?

He was flabbergasted. It's a great YouTube clip.

You're taking all the limits off and you're saying anyone can take anything. So if people want to win and they think there's money at the end of it or a big prize or whatever it may be, they're going to take a lot of stuff, and that is going to be very dangerous.

Well, we must believe that athletes who are adults with free and informed consent should be able to make choices about their own bodies. My body, my choice. Your body, your choice. Enhancements are present in our society. I see you have a coffee cup right there. Caffeine is the most used enhancement probably in the world. Right. And should the government or should some paternalistic sports organization be telling you peers how much caffeine you should be able to drink?

All right, Mark, again, I mean, I think the idea of this is insane, but it's a coherent argument if you want to go to that insane way. My issue, I think a concern like yours is it just seems incredibly dangerous.

It's funny, on my bicep here, I have a tattoo of the caffeine molecule. It's Mother Nature's original smart drug. And, like, find a culture that doesn't have tea or coffee or cacao or another source of caffeine or a similar substance as part of what they do. And it seems like it's a core drive for us. And it's. It's one of the funny things. Well, you're allowed to drink alcohol and you're allowed to have coffee and allowed to smoke a cigarette, but we can't do all these other things. It. It's so. It's so absurd.

It is absolutely absurd. And, and the history of enhancements is actually a fascinating one. So the desire to enhance oneself for athletic reasons goes all the way back to ancient Greece. They would boil bull's testicles and ingest them as a performance enhancing drug. And this dates back all the way to the ancient Olympiad. And the use of enhancements was perfectly common in the early Olympiad and really only became a call celebra in the 1970s and the 1980s, just at the same time. As the IOC was losing the fight against professional sports. And so you have to ask yourself the historic question, why is it that they are so obsessed about the place of enhancements in sport? It's really a method of control over the athletes. In my opinion, the athletes, Olympic athletes, don't get paid any money yet they're the core value creators. Why don't they unionize? Well, they can't unionize because nearly half of them are using banned substances and they're almost. And they're virtually all getting away with it.

Wow. Was there one angry person, maybe who was bullied in third grade who started the World Anti Doping association, just watching, like, it's not fair.

It's not fair.

Was there like one, one person who drove all this insanity?

Well, actually, the person who created the World Anti Doping Agency is a gentleman named Dick Pound. He was the vice president of the International Olympic Committee. I believe he's Canadian, and he's the one who really advocated for it. But when he created the World Anti Doping Agency, he suggested a parallel system. He suggested that athletes should be able to make the choice between participating in what he would call clean, but I would call natural sports, and competing in non natural sports. But then the powerful tentacles of the Olympic movement ensured that every sports federation in the world more or less had to abide by the. By the WADA code. And the parallel enhanced sports world that Dick Pound envisioned never came to be until myself and my colleagues came along.

Interesting. So the original beginnings of it had a fairness and I think a recognition of an athlete's right to choose. And then some bureaucrat later decided that for the power game, they didn't have to do that.

Well, it's actually a very simple power game, because if you're the International Olympic Committee, the most important thing is the money. And where does the money come from? It comes from broadcast rights, particularly NBC. The Olympic television rights are worth about $4.5 billion per Olympic Olympic cycle. And so you don't want to have a parallel system that is faster because as human beings, we're only interested in the fastest, the strongest, the best. Right. We don't care if they're natural or enhanced, black or white, male or female, amateur or pro. We really just care if they're the fastest. And I think this is the core problem for the Olympic movement. When the Enhanced Games, when we break the first world records, who's going to want to watch the old slow Olympics? No one is interested. Nobody in a second tier event.

Thus their concern. And by the way, I totally believe you viewers want to see amazingness and I don't think that they're going to care that it's enhanced. I think that they're going to be very interested that it's enhanced because it's not just hard work, it's hard work and science combined that's creating something new and maybe that science could work for you.

That's exactly right. And so the, I think the enhanced games are a lot like Formula one. Formula one is the athlete and the engineer working together. I can't just jump in a Ferrari F1 car and have a world class time around the Monza circuit. It requires skill, it requires tenacity, but also requires engineering science and technology. And F1 is one of the greatest monetizers in sports because it's an on field brand activation. The high performance car companies have to advertise in Formula One. They have to have F1 teams because it's a demonstration of the efficacy of their products. And in the same way, the companies that are going to make enhancements, those that are promoting enhancements and those that are promoting science and research, will need to participate in the enhanced games to showcase their technology. If the fastest people in the world are at the enhanced games, Nike will have to sponsor. Because Nike has built $114 billion brand on one fact, which is the fastest people in the world wear their shoes and the fastest people aren't wearing their shoes. It calls into question their entire brand.

I think you've got them by the, by the swoosh, if you know what I'm saying. What about you? Are you using human enhancements right now?

I have used a great many substances that are on the band list and it's really surprising when you drill into it, you know, whether it's caffeine or pseudoephedrine. But the one I always like to point to is that as a consequence of running the enhanced games, I fly a lot and every time I come back I get an intravenous IV drip. And if in using more than 500ml in any 12 hour period, we'll get one band under the world anti doping code.

Oh my God, that's right.

It's rude.

You can't dehydrate.

Yeah, it's totally clouds. Totally ridiculous. And you know, if anyone's a long haul traveler, the best way to get over jet lag is an IV drip. And in terms of the more serious enhancement drugs, we are working with state regulators around the world to develop the first enhancement protocols which will be legislated and approved and when those are approved, I want to be the very first person to use them and to undertake. Can I be number two enhancement regime? You can join the queue.

I would love to see most athletes who choose to on Modafinil. It's one of the most amazing cognitive and physical performance enhancers and it's so much better than Adderall and things like that, where your decision making is so much faster. And I see a difference if I'm playing at table tennis or something, but I've been using that for 20 years, for most of the time, and at first it was just because my brain had mold poisoning, but my brain works really well. It just works even better on a low dose of Modafinil. And I look at what I've done in my career and I look at the amount of travel I do, and I do not hit the wall without a whole lot of work. And if I do start to hit the wall, I have all the enhancements, I want to move the wall out some more as long as I know how to recover. And I couldn't do what I do with the number of companies I have without all the human enhancement stuff. So entrepreneurs, software developers, hedge fund managers and people in Hollywood and people who are on different stages in different cities performing, they're all into biohacking, they're all into human enhancement, because otherwise you can't do all the stuff you want to do. And I think the science that you're going to unlock with the enhanced games is going to release some biohacking protocols that probably haven't been thought of yet, or maybe some that we've thought of, but we haven't adequately tested.

And that's. That's. That. That's exactly right. And I came up with the idea of the enhanced games on 26th December 2022. So less than two years ago. And it was. And I do do it every year. I take my idea of a holiday, which is to take my laptop and rent a house on the beach and. And write the business plan for a new company or organization that I want to found between Christmas and New Year's and that Christmas period in 2022. My father was staying with me. He's a professor of cardiology and he was the very first person I talked to about the enhanced games. And the very first words that came out of his mouth was, the data will change the world. And when I speak to scientists and clinicians all over the world, that's what they're most excited about because there has never been a Data set of high performance athletes disclosing what they're using. And if you think about it, if Lance Armstrong, after recovering from cancer and winning the Tour de France, went out there and said I was dying a year ago and today I'm writing down the Champs Elysees as the best cyclist in the world, all thanks to epo. EPO would have been the wonder drug of that decade. It would have been the Ozempic, it would have been worth a trillion dollars and would have unlocked a complete market. And the economic incentives I think of what we were doing is very important because when the first athlete breaks world records, everyone's going to look at him or her and say, look, a happy, healthy, safe, intelligent person. Openly disclosing what they're using, what are they on and how do I get it? And that is immediately going to create a multi billion dollar market which then will create incentives for research and development and the discovery of next generation compounds.

So anyone who's into biohacking or longevity, almost by default, you ought to be supporting the enhanced games whether you want to watch it or not, because it's going to be part of unlocking radical longevity. Because it's so weird how things that make you perform better usually but not always make you live longer. Because biology that performs better lasts longer. It's kind of amazing how that works.

Well, the most indicative thing of lifelong longevity is muscle mass at age 50, because the ultimate cause of mortality for older individuals is frailty. Simple if you don't have enough muscle mass and you fall and you will break a bone. And the same compounds that allow athletes to jump higher and run faster will allow my father and my mother to walk up a flight of stairs as they get older. And that's really important and we should unlock that technology. And that's why, Dave, this is truly the mission of my life. Because I don't want to be there in my 70s and 80s starting to feel old and debilitated when I know I actually have the chance to solve this problem not on a scientific level, but on, on a economic and cultural level. And I always say we are in the business of cultural change. You and other leaders in this field have done so much to lay the groundwork. And now what we are doing is going to make a made for television moment with a viewership. I have no doubt that will be the scale of the Super Bowl. That will showcase what human enhancement technologies are capable of and that will really expand the Overton window and our imagination as a collective humanity of what is possible and we can move to a new threshold where we are higher, faster and stronger.

Wow, man. This has been a dream for so long. So I'm, I'm really grateful that you're stepping up and doing this. How do you handle the, the attacks from peers and all the other people saying you're a bad person? Do you have a specific pharmaceutical for that or what's your, what's your deal?

No, I enjoy the criticism. I enjoy the criticism a lot because it is creating a conversation. And whenever a critic points something out to me, I would say, let's talk about this in a scientific way. So when, for example, people say steroids, they're unsafe, I say, well, let's talk about safety. And you know, I always point to a survey done by Professor David Knott of Imperial College London, published in 2012 in the Lancet, which is one of the foremost medical journals in the world. And it showed the social and individual risk of performance and recreational drugs. And do you know what the highest risk drug was?

Alcohol.

Alcohol. Alcohol is number one. Heroin is number two. And at the opposite end of the spectrum was anabolic steroids without clinical supervision. This is underground, self administered, and with full clinical supervision it could be even safer. And you know what wasn't on the list? Sugar or processed food. And I always point out the fact that the two longest serving sponsors of the Team USA at the Olympics or McDonald's and Coca Cola, two organizations that have done more damage to public health than any other company or organization in the totality of human history and read the history books, they built their brands on the back of sports, particularly Olympic sponsorship.

This is very, very true. If McDonald's and Coca Cola came to you and said, we want to sponsor the Enhanced Games, what would you say?

I'd say no. I would say no. Wow. It would be a tough decision to make. But on an ethical level, I don't think I could take their money. Right. They are not doing anything to advance human performance. They're masking sugar and processed food and sporting supplements when the science does not support that. On an evidential level, the core tenet of our decision making at the Enhanced Games is always we make decisions on a scientific basis. I have a PhD. Half of my team are MDs. PhDs have rather advanced degrees. And we always make our decisions based on a scientific level.

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What if a brand that's promoting veganism for athletes wants to sponsor? Given that almost every athlete who's gone vegan starts getting injured and keeps getting injured for the rest of their career until they stopped being vegan. Including US Saint Polt who broke the world record and then kept getting injured year after year after year, would you take, you know, plant only companies?

That's an interesting question. I'd have to study the science more closely about that. I know that there are some benefits in in limited sports to veganism. Particularly like ultra marathoning. But I'm not familiar with a specific literature so I, I can't comment on that at this moment.

By the way, I love trolling vegans. I was a raw vegan. It, it really did bad things to me and there's a bunch of biochemistry about why and so guys, I was a vegan, I share your values. It just doesn't work. Sorry. But I, I'm more asking you the question because there will be a scientific perspective. And I, I just had to train, chat GPT. I kept answering questions stupidly about scientific means. I said, look, for each of the answers you just gave me, there's a counterpoint that's also supported by studies and science is not a democracy. So yeah, for everything you tell me, you have to tell me the alternative view with the evidence behind it. And the whole quality of my queries changed because now I'm getting real science instead of, you know, voting for science. The fact that all scientists agree on something, the world would still, you know, not be revolving around the sun because Galileo, you know, wouldn't have been able to do his thing. And even as it was, he kind of got killed for that. So we're really working on freedom of thought. And maybe someone's going to come in and say, you know, I want to do my own protocol and I'm going to go back to the Greek, you know, boiled testicles and hang out with Liver King. And that's not a dig, by the way, you know, he's using testicles as, as performance enhancement. And I want to do something that you guys think is total bullshit. Would you let the athlete do that?

Yeah. So ultimately rule number one is an individual is sovereign over their own body. An extension of that sovereignty is the right to enhance it and a right to take risk. And I think this is something as a society we've gone quite wrong on. We focus too much on individual safety, mental safety, and we don't really think about the necessary requirement to take risk. I live in London and I see a failing British economy all around me because the risk appetite on an individual, on a societal and a governmental level is all wrong. And I go to places like the Middle east or the United States, particularly going to California and Silicon Valley where people are willing to take risk. Right? Because without taking risk there is no opportunity for success. And I have always been a risk taker in my life. I want to take more risk and that is my choice as an individual. And as long as it doesn't harm another person, one should have that. Right.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, a few people listening may have been upset over the past few years when they were told they had to do something medical for their own safety that they didn't want to do. And this idea of safety first is nonsense because we couldn't have Olympics if safety was first, because people might get injured at the Olympics. And so it's one of the reasons why my coffee is called danger coffee, because who knows what you might do, but you're going to take a risk because you wanted to take a risk, because it was fun or because there were great, great possibilities. And this risk of avoidance in society is gross.

Yeah. And I think it's a really toxic factor of the era that we live in that safety first has become the mantra. I think the mantra of our society is take intelligent risk. We shouldn't be jumping out of airplanes without parachutes just because we can. Right. But individuals should be able to take intelligent risk, and we should teach our young people about taking intelligent risk. So, you know, I drive a car, but I wear a seatbelt when I drive because I've seen the evidence, and I believe that that significantly reduces the risk without much incremental cost. But, you know, some people are more comfortable and they're willing to ride motorbikes, and motorbikes are 263 times more likely to kill you on an American road. I choose not to do that. That's a choice I make for myself. But those who wish to ride motorbikes should be allowed to do so. And this distinction is often a very gendered one. Pole vaulting has been a sport that many can participate in at the Olympics since the very beginning. But only within the last couple of decades have women been allowed to pole vault. This was viewed as being too dangerous for the fairer sex to be allowed to participate in such a dangerous sport. And I don't think that's fair. And I don't think that any government or sports federation should be regulating the amount of risk that individuals are allowed to take, particularly when we have full and informed consent.

I love that answer. All right, now it's going to get a little sticky. So there's been a little bit of scandal in the sporting world when you have people who surgically alter themselves to change their. To change their gender, or at least to change some aspects of it. And then, you know, people competing in different categories has created situations that are clearly not fair. How will the Enhanced Games handle someone who has changed their gender and wants to compete in a different category?

That's a great question, Dave, and it's one I receive quite frequently. And I would say we make our decisions on a scientific basis. Basis. So we don't use the term man or woman or male or female. We use the terms XX and XY. And so athletes will be competing in the XX 100 meter and the XY 100 meter. Now that's a solution for that. Well, it seems to be a clean solution on the surface level, although there is some complexity to it. And so now I'm going to give these numbers off the top of my head, so I might be a little incorrect, but there are 99.99% of people are either XX or XY. There are 43 known chromosomal abnormalities, 40 of which are attributable to XX or XY, and there are three that are not. So that's where the binary classification breaks down. However, those three chromosomal abnormalities, as far as my scientific team tells me, there has never been an elite athlete who has competed at world record levels in Olympic competition with those three chromosomal abnormalities, because most people do not reach adulthood with those chromosomal abnormalities. So I believe it's a clean and hopefully bulletproof solution. But it's a much better one than saying individuals can choose their gender and whatever category they wish. And absolutely you can do that. That is your choice as a individual adult. But we need to protect the integrity of competition and avoid these divisive political battles, because ultimately the Enhanced Games are not like the Olympics. The Olympics are about politics. They're about politics between nations and we are about science and the future. And so we make all our decisions on a scientific basis.

God, that's so clean. Is this going to drive a lot of our XX athletes to take as much testosterone as a man would and compete with beards and bulging muscles? Because that's the best way to win if you're an xx.

Again, that's a choice that individual athletes can make for themselves as long as they pass the health assessment protocols and you know, as long as they are healthy to compete, they can do what they wish with their own bodies.

When we talk about healthy to compete, there's also, will they be healthy 25 years from now based on what they do to compete? Is that part of the assessment?

As much as is scientifically possible. Obviously predicting the future 25 years out is not an easy thing to do. But even today in Olympic sport, right, elite athletes put their long term health at risk. You know, I was an elite cyclist. I rode a thousand kilometers a week for over a decade. And to this day, I have hip issues as a result. And would I trade that decision in any way, shape or form? Of course not. And I think that's a choice that individuals, again, with free and informed consent, should be able to make for themselves.

Very, very well said. There's a lot of things that we do when we're young that we might regret when we're old, but we have the right to do them anyway. And that can include staying up all night, drinking lots of times. It can include, you know, smoking way too much cannabis, and it can include, you know, exercising to the point of absurdity and harming yourself. So if we're allowed to do those things, why wouldn't people be able to make that choice for themselves as pro athletes?

I like. Absolutely.

Yeah.

And I, and I think that, you know, there are many things that a young person might do that their older self may regret, but the inverse of that is also true. I think there are many things that older individuals wish they did, you know, and I, and I'm sure you in your younger days wish you knew, you had all the knowledge that you have today to equip you to make better decisions about your own health.

In fact, all the stuff that I write is written so that if I'd have just had this when I was 18 years old, it would have saved me millions of dollars and reduced a lot of suffering and, you know, it would have just created a lot of freedom. So I know it's helped a lot of people because I meet them on the streets going, wow, like, I had a big shift, but just because I understood this was possible. And I think what you're going to do at scale, if you get the kind of viewership that I think you're going to get, it's going to open, you know, a thousand times more people up to this idea that there are ways to, to basically be in a different state than you ever thought was possible. And of course, it goes to longevity and things like that.

Yeah. And the, the reason why I believe we will succeed is a very simple one. It's that. And it's a lot like why Elon believes Tesla and Spaces SpaceX will succeed. So the bankers will always say Tesla is overvalued. How can it be worth more than every other car company in the world put together? And Elon will always say Tesla is undervalued for one fact and one factor alone. You know what that is, Dave?

I, I don't know his one reason for that.

No, it's very simple. Tesla is the number one choice of employer of engineers of any company in the entire world, and SpaceX is number two. And as a result of being able to hire the most extraordinary people, he believes, and I, and I find no reason to disagree with this, that they can solve any technical problem. The Enhanced Games has a compelling mission. We're on the road to building Superhumanity. And I'm sure you see that and thousands of other people do too. I get hundreds of inbound job applications every week. And we can hire the very, very best people in the world. And as a result, we'll be able to build the best sporting league, the best media product, the best technology, the best science, medicine and research. And I believe we will be able to fundamentally change the world.

I'm with you. Little thing, though, about Tesla. They were not doing so well and they got a big chunk of money from the government at a time when they needed it. Elon's been very strategic and intelligent about those kinds of moves. Who's funding the Enhanced Games? How much money are we talking about to put on the first game?

A lot less than the old Olympics. So the Olympics waste billions of dollars on two things. One of which is building stadiums, and the other is reinventing their security infrastructure every four years. These are the two biggest call centers, and so we will avoid that by picking one permanent host city. So all of our core events will be hosted in one city for at least 10 years. We have nearly a dozen cities actively bidding at the moment, which is what's keeping me traveling a lot, visiting a lot of venues around the world. And we're going to pick one city and we're going to invest in that city and make it the capital of Superhumanity. And that will keep our costs down and we will not build stadiums. We believe we can deliver this whole event for tens of millions of dollars when the Olympics cost tens of billions of dollars. And just by deleting all the unnecessary stadium building, by cutting out the sports that don't matter. So sorry, there's going to be no breakdancing, curling or badminton at the Enhanced Games. We're only focusing on the sports that have the highest television and social media impact with the lowest infrastructural cost.

So, Bob Sleddon.

Well, the Winter Games are actually just. They make no money. They make no money whatsoever. And the viewership is pathetic. And the costs are out of this world. The only sport really in the Winter Games that is impactful is figure skating. The rest, it's just a giant boondoggle and with climate change, it's becoming increasingly hard for cities to host the Winter Games. There are fewer and fewer that want to host them, so we're focused purely on summer sports. Track and field, swimming, gymnastics, combat and weightlifting. Five sports that have the highest television and social media impact with the lowest infrastructural cost.

I like that. And I think I know which part of the world's going to win, but I'll talk with you about that afterwards because you wouldn't be able to answer anyway, since you're in the middle of bidding, but I think I know. I've also had the fortune of flying all over the planet and talking with human enhancement people over the past 12 or so years. And there's, there's certain parts of the world where it's in the culture. So I'm, I'm excited to hear. When is the announcement going to come out about where the Enhanced Games are.

Going to be in the first quarter of next year.

Okay, so it's, it's coming soon.

It's coming soon. SABRU it's going to be very exciting.

Now, one of my beliefs as a former Silicon Valley engineering guy and as you know, a preeminent biohacker, is that I don't really believe in replacing my hardware until I've made full use of the hardware I have now. And our human biology is nowhere near tapped out. And that's why I use like neurofeedback at 40 years, as in my neuroscience brain enhancement company, instead of say a neural link approach where you insert electrodes into the brain, is there any sort of rule about replacing your legs with, you know, 10 foot tall carbon fiber, whatevers, like, can I cut off body parts and be in the Enhanced Games?

So right now we're focused on pharmacological enhancements, although we've had great support from the Paralympic community. So para athletes recognize that they are enhanced. They have overcome a disability through the miracle of engineering to become fast. And actually, it's really interesting to see over the last 50 years, the performance of para athletes has increased dramatically because they went from using steel wheelchairs to titanium ones to carbon fiber ones such that now, for example, the paramarathon is competed faster than the able bodied marathon. And so we see a huge potential in engineered enhancements in potentially brain computer interfaces with AI decision support and a whole raft of technologies. As long as we can ensure that it's being done in a safe manner consistent with the spirit of sport. I don't want athletes to cut off their legs and put springy carbon fiber legs on without a proper thoughtful and intelligent process backed up by scientific evidence.

So let's say an athlete really determined to win, accidentally fell asleep with their legs on a train track and an ambulance sitting right next to them so that they could get carbon fiber legs. Can they still compete?

I'd have to take that to my, my scientific and medical commission to make an independent decision about that, you know, and, but this is the Oscar Pistorius challenge, right? So, yeah, Oscar was, was hoping to compete in the Olympic Games, not in the paragames using carbon fiber blades. And it was a huge undertaking. So, you know, it's Pandora's box. You know, we thought it was simple or, you know, maybe the world thought it was simple to say, well, you know, individuals can pick their gender. That, that was an uncontroversial statement in many ways just a few years ago. But then there was a corner case of, you know, women's sport that arose pretty quickly. And so we want to make sure that we make a thoughtful and intelligent decision about engineered enhancements. But I'm really excited by the potential of engineered enhancements. I could see a world in which more probabilistically, individuals are wearing, say, Apple Vision pro goggles while throwing a javelin with real time decision support, or a swimmer who has implants on their goggles measuring their pacing as they're swimming. These technological advances are going to make a tremendous difference. And you know, most of the swimming world records were set about 15 years ago because that's when the high performance suits were available for use. And it was decided that that was too technological and that technology was removed from swimming. And we believe in fully advancing human technology, whether it's on a pharmacological basis or whether it's on an engineered basis.

It's, it's going to be really exciting to see what, what engineers come up with when the gloves are truly off instead of just following a set of arbitrary rules. I, I'm, I'm just truly, truly intrigued to see what happens when the designers of things like bikes or suits or shoes or anything just don't have crazy limitations. I'm, I'm pretty stoked.

Cycling is a good example. So in cycling, I believe that there is still a weight limit on bikes, not an upper limit, but a lower limit of only 6.8 kg. And so carbon fiber technology has improved so much, so why, why shouldn't we allow lighter, faster bikes into competition?

So I've got a question from the Upgrade Collective. This is a group of people who sit in for the podcasts live. I guess you guys can go to our upgradecollective.com if you want to be part of the conversation. What about sports betting? Are you running the betting on this? Who's, who's running betting? Is it allowed? How do you make sure people aren't throwing games and all that kind of stuff?

Well, the integrity of competition is always very important and that's a true and tested model. It's pretty easy in the sports that we have selected because they're objective sports, they have, you know, records. It's about timing, it's less about skill and strategy. But of course there will be sports betting at the enhanced games. And my commercial people project that we will generate more revenue from sports betting than we will from traditional media rights. And this is something that the traditional legacy sports franchises haven't done. Well, you know, the NFL, the NBA are doing very well in sports betting, but the Olympics has not. The World Athletics, World Aquatics have pathetic professional franchises that are dramatically underfunded principally because they, they don't monetize their commercial rights correctly. When I started this, I read hundreds of books and scientific papers. I gathered all the evidence and really prepared myself because I knew that when we started to come out with this idea, it will be criticized by everyone because we're Uber, we're, we are Netflix and the taxi cabs and Blockbuster which is in this case the International Olympic Committee, which has a hundred billion dollar century old monopoly risk losing it all. And that's the market we have to capture. It's one of the biggest, most durable markets in the entire world and they will do everything to stop us. But simply when the first world records are broken, we will win. It's actually just a massive cultural change and we live in that era of the fastest cultural change in human history thanks to social media.

Calling the IOC Blockbuster is one of the most epic digs I've ever heard.

Well, calling an organization blockbuster just 20 years ago would have been a great compliment. You would have said that is a durable global monopoly business that has been around for decades that employs tens of thousands of people. That almost seems unsinkable. But of course we live in a world of great change. And it is unfortunate that it's taken so long for this change to come to the world of elite sports. And truly the Olympics are the crown jewel of human physical achievement. And it is right time that disruption came.

It is indeed if listeners want to get involved either to compete or to support or to sponsor the Enhanced Games. I know you're@enhanced.org but what are the best ways to start getting involved?

Well, any of your listeners are very welcome to email me. It's Aaron a r o nhance.org I will read every single email that you send. I will respond to the vast majority of them. And I enjoy hearing from our fans, supporters and even our critics. And I think the best way to be involved, if you truly believe this is to your listeners out there that you are one of the most talented, capable and driven individuals in the world and you want to be a part of a mission to build superhumanity, please email me your resume. Because we're hiring and we're going to build the highest performing team. So what I always say is the Olympics are this wonderful avenue of showing the best of human potential and the best of human team collaboration. But the International Olympic Committee and the sports bureaucracies like FIFA are very low performing organizations. Dave, you worked in Silicon Valley. You've seen truly what high performing organizations are like. And I am building one of the highest performing teams in the world. And if you want to come on this journey or any of your listeners do, please just feel free to email me.

What a very, very clear goal. I, I like your vibe. And we'll be having a conversation about whether upgrade labs can support the Games. We use AI recovery, AI stimulation techniques to help people get all kinds of goals and way less time because it's possible. And I'm out there going, I'm going to do this for people's parents and for people who are busy. And we have a lot of pro athletes who come and we have a lot of people who don't want to be pro athletes. They just want access to tech. But we're not doing the pharmaceutical and things like that. We're just using the latest tech that you might see. So I think there's a pretty good match there. But regardless of whether we move forward with that, I'm a true believer in what you're doing. And I've been occasionally criticized over the years for saying we need to take the shackles off of athletes. And look at you just saying we can do it for tens of millions, not billions. Let's take them on. And I look forward to having a blockbuster keychain and an IOC keychain in my stack of keychains of companies that don't exist anymore. Sorry, ioc. And for all my Olympic athlete friends guests on the show, you've done something incredible, something that's the best in the world with an absurd set of limitations that you overcame. I want to see you do it again without the limitations. Aaron, you're a rock star. Thanks for doing the hard work. I appreciate you.

Thank you very much for having me on your show.

If you liked today's episode, Share with a friend this is going to create a change in society. I am the guy who created Biohacking and I've done some other big stuff in tech. I have a spidey sense for these things. I can tell you the stuff that's going to be big in the future. This is one of them. So make sure you check it out and leave a review for the show. And if you feel so called, I always appreciate people drinking Danger coffee because who knows what you might do. I'll see you soon. See you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast.

The Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Aspred. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider carefully, read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call us your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services to referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.