The Science of Changing Your Mind – Legacy Upgrade ft. Dr. Joe Dispenza : 980

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey, formerly Bulletproof Radio. Today's guest is Dr. Joe Dispenza. He's a well known author who teaches people how to rewire their brains and recondition their bodies to make permanent change. So if you wanted to become more bulletproof, more resilient. He has a level of understanding that I've come to know and respect through his books. He talks about neuroscience, epigenetics, quantum physics, to look at why people do things like spontaneously have their diseases go into remission or why they can heal. He's a really compassionate guy. He speaks plainly so he's easy to understand, but he can go very, very deep. And we're going to go deep into.

What it really takes for, for you.

To change from the inside out. This is more than just a feel good, personal development kind of thing. This is real science, real neuroscience, real genetics about what's going on in there. Joe, welcome to the show.

Thanks David. Happy to be with you.

You teach all sorts of stuff. You've looked at heart rate variability, which is an area of interest for me. You've looked at EEGs, genes, all this stuff. And your most recent book was Becoming Supernatural, which is a fantastic read. If you meet someone in an elevator and you've never, you don't know who they are and they don't know who you are, and they say, so what do you do? How does someone like you actually explain yourself?

I usually just say, I'm an author just so that I could get some work done. But they always say, well, what do you write about? And I talk about really the science of changing your mind. And I talk about how the mind and body are connected and, and how we can begin to change who we are and that we're not hardwired to be a certain way for the rest of our lives. And we're not doomed by our genes. In fact, we're marvels of adaptability and change. So first question is your most intimate relationship that you have is with your body? And is it possible that the mind and body somehow can influence each other to begin to make more permanent changes? And then if you truly get good at it, can you begin to see feedback in your life? You know, that you begin to create the life that you want. So I teach people the science of changing their mind and what it is to truly transform. So we have some research to quantitatively prove that we are not separate in space and time. That we now know that when people can create an elevated emotion, they can learn a formula to open their heart, and they can practice it and they do it properly. When we live in fear, when we live in anxiety, when we live in anger, frustration, pain, suffering, our heart is immediately affected. It begins to beat out of rhythm, and it begins to function in a very incoherent way. And energy actually leaves the heart. So our research shows that if you can combine a clear intention, that is a coherent brain, with an elevated emotion, that is a coherent heart, you begin to broadcast pretty much a signal into the field that when the heart begins to beat coherently, the first thing that happens is it sends a wave of energy to the brain. We've actually measured this. And that creative center, your heart center, tends to slow brainwave down so that you're more creative. That's we should create from our heart. We should put our heart into our creations. At the same time, it begins to produce an ambient magnetic field that's up to 3 meters wide. And that frequency, when it's orderly, when it's coherent, carries information. And so we did an experiment where we took 1,000 people and we had them all move into heart coherence. And we had 50 people in the front of the room. We've done this several times, actually wearing heart rate monitors.

Yep.

And, and when we got people into that elevated state of love, of gratitude, of appreciation, of inspiration, then I asked them to lay the intent, lay the thought on that frequency that the people wearing the heart rate monitors, that their bodies be healed, that their lives be enriched and their dreams come true. And what we noticed was that the people wearing the monitors, the majority of them, went into heart coherence at the exact same time, at the exact same day, in the exact same meditation. So that means that there were some non local effects, that when you begin to elevate your emotional state, that anybody that you have a relationship with, you're entangled to that you can begin to create coherence in their autonomic nervous system. You can influence their autonomic function. So in a time of quarantine, in a time of separation, in a time of isolation, where we're believing in this idea that we're separate from one another socially, up to contain some type of pathogen. That's exactly true. But there are quantum effects that take place when you elevate your emotional state. So I thought, my goodness. Our research also shows that when people can sustain an elevated emotion just for 10 to 15 minutes a day, twice a day, for four days, that they increase an immunoglobulin in their body. An antibody called immunoglobulin A. That's your body's primary defense against bacteria and viruses, your body's natural flu shot. And we saw that in just four days, their IGA levels went up 50% just by elevating their emotional state. What's the significance of that? Well, that heart center has a specific gland that has an endocrine function and an immune function. The endocrine function is primarily the releases growth hormone. And the immunological function releases a chemical called thymosin. And thymosin signals T cells to begin to upregulate and begin to fight foreign bacteria and viruses. So the worst thing that can happen to you when you feel love is you're gonna heal.

It's so funny. I injected thymosin this morning. I also got a hug. I don't know, I was doubling down on that.

And if you give something, it'll probably release a little bit more thymosin. So. So can you provide the proper signal to your body to begin to upregulate genes? Because when T cells are activated, they start working with the other cells called B cells, that begin to release antibodies that are the shields against viruses and bacteria. So if we spread love, and so we did this campaign, we said, okay, think of somebody in your life that you truly love. Take a moment and write down in a text, or better yet, record an audio or video file and express love. Tell them exactly why you feel love. And once you tell them why you love them, you're going to notice that your heart's going to start to open and then go into a meditation and bring them into your heart and entrain them to that love. You want someone that you love to feel the love that you feel for them. That's why we give things to people we love. So instead of doing it in 3D reality, put them in your heart and take them there and feel the love that you feel for them and entrain their heart. And it's just been a super amazing campaign. Just a fun thing we did one by one with people and it's spread in a lot of different countries.

Now the cool thing is you're talking about real science here that shows a non local phenomena, but one that's measurable and full disclosure. I became an advisor to the heartmath Institute in 2008. So I've looked at some of the similar heart rate variability things and we teach people that skill on the first day of the neuroscience institute that I started. But I haven't gone nearly as deep as you have in doing it in large groups and looking at the effects on each other, how far away does someone need to be from another person for this effect to happen?

That's a good question, but I think you know the answer. Well, the funny thing about the quantum is that the quantum field is an invisible field of energy and information that exists beyond space and time that connects everything physical. So then if you're in the quantum, there is no separation. In other words, nothing separate, everything is connected. So all you need is the thought of the person. And the thought of the person in the realm of the quantum connects you to that him or her. Because quantum is the realm of thought. So it doesn't matter. You could be next to a person, you could be 10ft away, you could be in another state or another country, or on the opposite side of the world. Space and time are irrelevant when it comes to the quantum.

I also know the answer to this, or at least I think I do. But do you have evidence that we're actually quantum in our biology, in our beings? Or is it just one of those woo, you know, everything's quantum. I had some quantum donuts for breakfast.

Well, we are seeing some really cool things happening. In fact, we have the research department at the University of California, San Diego that have been studying some of the effects of our meditations during our week long events. And I was just on the phone with the research team and they are blown away by the dramatic changes we're seeing in the way the cell functions. Now the interesting thing about cells, most people don't know this, but cells are way more sensitive to electromagnetism than they are to chemistry. And so then how do you get an electromagnetic signal to a cell? Because all cells are emitting light and information. And the more orderly that information is being emitted from the cell, the more orderly or coherent that further frequency is, the more cells can communicate with one another because they're on the same radio station on the same wavelength. When cells begin to diminish the light that they begin to emit, then there's less of a communication. They're static between cells and the tissue begins to malfunction because the cell is becoming more matter and less energy. So we've seen some pretty cool things happen when people learn a process where they can begin to slow down their thinking brain to such a degree that, that they're very suggestible to information. Now suggestibility is your ability to accept something, believe in something, and to surrender to without analyzing it. And that's what begins to program our subconscious mind into Certain states. Well, we normally do that in a hypnotic state. Typically when we're looking at a television and it's late night and we're in theta brainwave patterns and someone's telling you you need a certain pharmaceutical, you need a certain product to fill some lack or separation that you have. But when you close your eyes and you're tuning into frequencies and you learn how to put your attention on it and you start trading your nervous system to a frequency, what we see is a super high arousal in the nervous system. An arousal that is way outside of normal. Now arousals normally happen in the nervous system when you feel fear, when you feel anger or aggression, or when you.

Feel pain or other kind of arousal.

Yeah, there's sexual arousal bedrooms. Yeah, yeah, sexual arousal too. That's a sympathetic response. So instead of that arousal causing a release, out there's an arousal that causes energy to move to the brain. And we've actually measured this when this happens.

How do you measure that? Like, what's the instrument of measure?

We use a quantitative EEGs, we use quantitative encephalographs, and we're actually going to start with PET scans as soon as. Oh, very cool. As soon as things start to move again. But what we see is an arousal in a level of brainwave patterns called gamma brainwave patterns. But not a little gamma. Not a lot of gamma. Not a lot, a lot of gamma. Like a supernatural amount of gamma. We're talking about 200 to 300 to 400 to 500 standard deviations outside of normal. Now let me just tell you what that means. If we took a slice of population, we were measuring intelligence. We're measuring height, weight, we're measuring eyesight. We would see in a scoop of 100 people, you would see the same bell curve. And that bell curve is divided into three different deviations. The majority of the bell curve at the top is the normal because that's where most people are. And so people are a little above normal, a little below normal, but pretty.

Much the muggles, is that.

Yeah, yeah. So, so then, then you have people a little bit better eyesight, people a little worse eyesight. And then you have that curve flattening out. And then you have people with really great eyesight and really poor eyesight. Well, that curve makes up 99.7% of the population. No matter what we measure, everybody falls in that Z curve, that bell curve.

That's three standard deviations away from three.

Standard deviations above and below. So imagine we're getting recordings in gamma of 200 300, 400, 500 standard deviations.

One in a billion type of thing.

Yes, they're one in a billion. Exactly. So that arousal that's taking place is not coming from anything in the external environment. That arousal is coming from something within the person. Now, when they feel that arousal, the word that's typically used is that they're in ecstasy or they're in bliss. There's some kind of experience where they feel a greater level of love than they've ever felt in their entire life. Now, what's happening, David, that's so cool. Is the thinking neocortex is so dialed down that most of the energy is in the autonomic nervous system. Now, the autonomic nervous system, processing high amplitudes of gamma in a very coherent way is sending a very, very orderly signal to every cell and tissue in the body. And when we see that there are immediate quantum effects, in other words, the person gets a biological upgrade. What was once there physically, whether it was a skin rash, whether it was severe vertigo, whether it was Parkinson's disease, whether it was lupus, whether it was stage four cancer, sometimes even blindness, you see a complete change, a complete reversal in the person's physical body.

A reversal of blindness.

Yeah, we've had a few of those.

How documented are these?

Oh, gosh, we have great studies. I'll tell you the story. We had a woman that is a nurse in London. One day she just started experiencing a lot of blurriness. And then ultimately she lost sight in the left lower quadrant of both eyes. And so she went to the doctors and they did a scan, and she had a massive stroke that affected the optic nerve. And as you know, with strokes, you have about two weeks, maybe three weeks to see if the nerve cells are going to come back online and if they don't. Typically, after a stroke, if you have paralysis or some physical compromise or sensory compromise, pretty much you're going to have to learn how to live with it. So she has scans to show that the left lower quadrant in both eyes lights out, completely black. And so she was pronounced clinically blind. She lost her driver's license. She couldn't work on the computer anymore. She had her own business, and she's a nurse. So she's contacting all her physician friends, and they're all saying, forget it. If it doesn't return in a couple of weeks, then just have to learn how to live with it. She finally found the doctor that was a friend of hers and asked her advice. She said, well, I'm going to go see this dispenza guy at this retreat, maybe you want to come? So they read the books, they did the online courses and they came ready. And this woman came with the objective really to learn how to cope with her condition because that was the extent of her belief. And she wanted to create a nonprofit and make a difference in people's lives. But somewhere, halfway through the week long workshop, she begins to realize that maybe she could reverse this. Now that's not natural, that's not normal, but it's a possibility in the quantum field. So in one of her meditations, walking meditations, she realizes that she could actually, if she practice, could actually make a change. The next meditation in the room, she finishes the meditation and she lays down and all of a sudden she hears this crackling inside her head and she feels this heat and comes back after the meditation and has complete restoration of vision. So we sent her for the scan and the Monday after the event ended on Sunday. And the scan shows 0, 0 effects after the stroke. She's got her full recovery of her eyesight. So we've had a few of those. And believe me, I'm more surprised than anybody when we see that because that's not a matter to matter phenomenon. That's energy instructing matter, it's informing matter. And so when that happens, when it's instantaneous in the moment, that's a quantum phenomenon. When it happens in real time.

Now I look back at that question about evidence that we are quantum and enzymes inside cells. Everything an enzyme does is basically a quantum shortcut. Mitochondria. And I know this because of my book on mitochondria in the brain. They work by quantum biology. And quantum biology is non bs. There is no woo. And it does provide a mechanism for explaining, you know, a distance healing or a spontaneous remission. But when people say there's no such thing as quantum, then basically there's no such thing as a biological or a biochemistry process involving an enzyme or a microtubule or capillary transport in the body. And also like, sorry guys, you're gonna have to just swallow that one. But still you talk about people healing blindness. Oh yeah. Well, I mean, doesn't the Pope do that? You know, do people kind of just think you're full of crap, by the way? I don't. But you have to be getting that.

Well, yes. I mean, it's kind of interesting, David, and I think you know this also. I mean, I've been on this journey for 25 years now. And 20 years ago when I stood in front of an audience. And I spoke about some of these things. Of course, many, many people had a lot of doubts. But here's what I know. We have evidence that you can make your brain work better. We have as you can prove also, we have evidence that you can make your heart work better. We have evidence you can strengthen your immune system. You have evidence you can change your gene expression in four days. We have evidence you can lengthen your life from meditation just by lengthening your telomeres and changing your state. So we have evidence in the scientific world that people actually can transform now by the same means, when someone stands on the stage with stage 4 cancer or had stage 4 cancer and has their scans there and tells the story of how they made significant changes in their health, that's a four minute mile. Because everybody in the audience who's listening to the story and it's not glamorous all the time, Sometimes they lose everything, Sometimes their condition got worse. I mean, they go through quite a process of transformation. But when they're triumphant and you see the evidence from their scans, as well as whatever it is that's changed, that person is an example of truth. Whatever it is that's changed, that person is an example of truth. And just like the four minute mile, once that veneer, that level of consciousness has been broken, well, 1400 people have broken the four minute mile since that first person when it was said to be physically impossible. So that kind of is a breaking through of a certain level of consciousness. And that's what's exactly happening. People are beginning to understand that it is more possible when they see the evidence in front of them. And that's a footprint in consciousness. And so we have evidence in the scientific world, we have evidence in testimony. And I think evidence is the loudest voice. And so as a result of it, we have seen a lot of physicians refer people with cancer to our work. We see now a lot of physicians coming wanting to participate in some of the research or participate in what we're doing. We've had physicians heal themselves of different health conditions and change their point of view about it. Some of the research we're doing right now is just so outstanding with cellular biology that, that yes, yes, it may not be for everybody, but for the people who are going to support whatever modality they're using in terms of healing, it's important for them to make sure they got their mind and body working right. So I don't feel like I cross any boundaries anymore. And of course, if you come to my week long events I'm way more out of the box than I am, you know, doing a podcast or just doing a lecture. But what we want to do is get people inspired to believe in themselves. And when you believe in yourself, you believe in possibilities. And so, yeah, we've come a long way with our evidence. And so I'm not attacked at all anymore. But at one time, yeah, I had to duck a lot.

So people don't. Even online people don't mess with you, or you just ban them and delete them, and you don't really see it because it doesn't matter.

Well, I mean, look, you'll always have somebody that will be challenging to you. And certainly my. I don't feel like my model is complete. I feel like I'm in the process of discovery. And what I do know is that on some level, we're beginning to make a difference in people's lives. And whether they've changed their health or created a new life or a new relationship or more wealth or whatever it is for them. What I realize is that really what people are coming for more than anything else is wholeness. And because once you're whole, when you're so whole, you no longer need anything or want anything, that's kind of a good place to be. And teaching people how to create from wholeness instead of separation or duality, I think causes people to be less in lack when they live their life and be more present. So I think when we overcome certain aspects of ourselves, that is the most important thing, because overcoming leads to becoming. And I want to teach people that. Just like swinging a golf club or just like dancing the salsa, once you understand the what and the why, then the how gets easier. And I feel like it's really important to have science demystify that process. And so then once science becomes the contemporary language that they can explain it by, the more they understand what they're doing and why they're doing it, then the how should be fundamentally more easy because they can assign meaning to it. And that's all I really want for people.

It's funny, because it's science's job to demystify everything. And we got stuck somehow on the idea that, oh, it doesn't exist, therefore you can't demystify it. Why do you think we got there?

Well, we have a reductionistic point of view about things. It's very mechanistic. You break things down to the smallest parts. I mean, to just talk about what you were talking about with cellular biology and quantum. I mean, information biology, people still Think that what they learned in biology, that cells operate by positive charges moving around. I mean, that is such a mechanistic view about the way things really are. I mean, there's information that the cell is drawing from, from the field, and the effects that are taking place between cells and in cells, they're faster than the speed of light. That's a quantum phenomenon. So I just think that right now, information has to be reorganized. Information has to be assembled. There's a ton of information out there, but putting it together in a way that makes sense for people, that they could actually repeat it back to. Somebody is beginning to install the neurological hardware in their brain. And so that hardware then becomes a new mind that they can step into. So I just think it's a different time because information is so available. We don't need a priest, we don't need a rabbi, we don't need a teacher, we don't need a governor. We don't need anybody to gain information. We can get information because of technology. And I think that that's what's speeding up people's belief in what's possible. Because you could just learn something on the Internet about your own health condition and decide if you want to follow your doctor's orders or try something else. And I think that's cool because that's when people start to take their power back, because they'll show up to the doctor's office and say, well, I want to try this thing, or I want to try that thing. And the doctor says, I don't know anything about that, or that doesn't work. And people are now saying, really, time to find a new doctor. So that is a sense of people saying, I want to participate in my health. And I think mind is an important element to that. I think that speeds up recovery to a big degree.

Is there a role for God in all of this?

Well, it depends on your definition of.

God, so it's a fair answer. I can't say that I have a definition for it, But, I mean, there are a lot of people from different faiths around the world who will say, well, you know, this seems to be you and your science encroaching on my religious belief system or spiritual belief system. Is there some underlying compatibility here? Or are we sort of using science to demystify religion?

I mean, that's a. You know, we need a bottle of wine in two hours to answer that question. But I will tell you this, that more now than ever, I find so many people that have Christian backgrounds or they're into the Kabbalah or into, you know, the Quran. We just had a huge event in Dubai at the beginning of the year. So many people are saying this is exactly what's taught in the. In some document or text. And I always say the same thing. Well, maybe truth is truth. And if you're looking at explaining the kingdom of heaven to 12 fishermen who are just barely figuring out what you're talking about, or you're explaining the way things are in another language, that is the language of the time. I think that it worked during that time, and now science just happens to be that language. And so when we can demystify that process and people have a transcendental moment, I think they move closer to that immaterial essence. And that immaterial essence that is kind of the glue that holds all this together. As we get closer to singularity, as we get closer to source, as we get closer to the zero point, as we get closer to oneness, we get closer and closer to pure love. And so maybe just that experience of that is divine. Maybe that's what we take with us, is the experience of it. And when people have that kind of. That level of ecstasy or bliss that comes from that transcendental moment, the cool thing about this is that it's a very subjective experience. Now, if someone told me some of the things that people have told me when we've seen their brain scan go off the chart. Chart. If I didn't see that brain scan and they told me that story, I'd be like, yeah, go ahead. Nice. You know, like, I may not believe them, but when I see their brain scan, we're quantifying a subjective experience very objectively. And it's the same patterns that we see every time. Now, listen, the cool thing about that is that arousal is not coming from any person or anything outside of them. It's coming from within them. That begs the question, what is within us? I mean, what is that energy? And as they go deeper and deeper and make more connections to it, maybe they feel more oneness, more wholeness. And maybe that is the less separation we have to everything, the more in wholeness or connectedness, we are more divine. So maybe it's just that. Maybe it's just a function of language.

So it's that concept that there's divinity inside that's coming from measuring the effects of your heart rate variability and your brain states. And that when people move their heart and their brains in certain ways, they're describing these experiences, right? So the question is, which comes first? And I Don't think I have an answer for that, do you? I mean, is it that the states are creating the sensation or the sensations creating the states?

I think it's a bridge between both. I don't think you can have one without the other. I've seen have a transcendental moment without actually applying any formula to get there. They just reach a moment where they surrender, they let go, they're sitting on a park bench or they're just yet brushing their teeth or washing dishes and somehow they get a glimpse of reality from a greater level of mind than they currently operate at. And for most people, they spend the rest of their life trying to get there. And sometimes it's even playing ping pong. You know, you have that moment where you're. Everything slows down and you're more present and you know things. I mean that flow, experience, whatever that is, that that comes sometimes spontaneously and other times it's removing anything that stands in the way between your, yourself and that connection. And, and that's the work at times because sometimes people have past experiences that bruise them, that leave strong emotional conditioning. Some people are in habits that they're unconscious to. Some people have hardwired thoughts that keep running behind the scenes of their awareness. And becoming conscious of those unconscious states of mind and body is the first step to begin to no longer be a program. But just being something other than that unconscious state, it takes awareness and consciousness to do that. So sometimes when people learn the formula of practicing it and dialing it down, we give them numerous opportunities to connect. We give them numerous opportunities to overcome themselves, we give them numerous opportunities to practice. And if you keep practicing and just like riding a bike, there's going to come a moment where you start figuring it out. Now the cool thing about running an event for 2000 people or 1000 people is that when there's that kind of moment where it starts happening and the momentum starts to change, somewhere around the second day or so, depending on the group, people are really starting to figure it out and starting to get beyond it. Then the rest of the week is completely unpredictable. We don't know what's going to happen, but we know that there's going to be some really cool experiences that people have that are really transcendental in a sense that not only is there an ecstasy or bliss, but there's an inward experience that seems more real than anything they've ever experienced before. They're having a full on sensory experience without their senses. Now if your senses were heightened by 25% right now, everything you're seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, your awareness.

Oh, you mean nicotine. I got it.

Yeah. But your awareness of everything around you, you would become more aware of everything around you. Right? And that awareness is consciousness. And you can't have consciousness without energy. So what a person is experiencing inwardly is causing them to be more aware of their trauma or their betrayal that happened in the past. So when the brain transduces that frequency into powerful imagery, and the imagery is very much related to the person's own subjective level of evolution in their life, they get something that's so profound that the experience enriches or rewires their brain instantaneously and sends a new signal to their body that we would call an emotion. But it's not chemical, it's electrical, it's electromagnetic. And when that occurs, then when they come back to their senses, their spectrum of reality is broadened because we don't see things how they are, we see things how we are. And all of a sudden they're beginning to perceive what has always existed in reality, but they did not have the circuitry to perceive it. Now after that, it's very difficult to go back to business as usual. So the overcoming process, for a lot of people is the process that becomes so important, because when they finally overcome it and they no longer feel like they need their wealth, they need their healing, they let go all the way in. The surrendering process allows whatever that is to come in and they get out of the way. And we see it happen time and time again.

A little while ago on the show I had Thomas Roberts on, who's one of the fathers of psychedelic therapy there from the very early 60s and has been researching and writing a lot about it. And he has this idea of Mind Apps, his most recent book. And he talks about neurofeedback, psychedelics, obviously, breathing exercises, yoga, martial arts, light, sound stimulation, magnetic stimulation, all the stuff that you and I have been playing with and fascinated by for a very long time. I think that was mostly the complete list. There's probably also, like, fasting. That must have been in there as well. And sleep deprivation there. Oh, and flow tanks. I think we got them all now.

And maybe music.

Oh, yeah, fair point. Okay. Tibetan bulls. We missed that one. Anyway, he talks about all these things as sort of different mind apps and way of accessing these states. And you're talking about people doing it with none of the above, or with some of the above, or at least measuring it when they do it. Which one of those is the most effective?

I think It's. I don't think you could really label something as more effective for someone, for everybody. It's maybe more specific to a person. Foreign.

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I don't think you could really label something as more effective for someone, for everybody. It's maybe more specific to a person. I mean I think when a person has their moment, it's their moment. And what I realized is that when people finally begin to understand what is possible and they go after it with a kind of sincerity, they go after it. They don't go half in, they go all in. Whether you're doing a breathing technique and you're not doing the breathing technique and thinking, oh my God, when is this going to end? Or doing the breathing technique and thinking, am I doing it right? Or you're not analyzing, you're fully engaged in the process with the understanding that the act of doing it creates the experience. Not looking for the experience. If you're looking for it, then you're separate from it. That the act, you get so involved in the act that the act becomes the experience and you're trusting in it and you're surrendering to whatever could happen, whether you're doing psychedelics, whether you're doing a breathing technique, whether you're fasting, if that is your intention, that is the sponsoring thought of why you're doing it and you're pushing yourself to that point where you get beyond your common thoughts. I think we set ourselves up many times for Something unknown to happen. And I think that that's equal to what the person is ready to experience. So the latent systems in the brain that can be activated when this occurs produces derivatives of melatonin that fit into the same receptor sites as serotonin and melatonin, but it's an upgrade. Yogic practices dependent on the teacher, breathing practices dependent on the teacher, psychedelics dependent on the shaman assigning meaning, creating ritual, making it reverent. All of these important things set up the space for someone to finally let go and feel safe enough to open up to something other than what they expect. So it doesn't matter to me. The only thing that I have difficulty with, Dave, is that when people start doing it to escape from reality, in other words, I'm doing this. This is my 65th journey with Ayahuasca.

Thank you.

And I have cancer, but my cancer hasn't healed. And I say, well, maybe you should try something else, because that's not going to be it for you. So again, there's got to be some practical steps. And for me, I'm all about measuring. You want to take on your disease, you want to take on your health condition, you want to take on your. Your mental health condition. Well, look, make sure that we're measuring what you're doing. Let's see what happens in three months. Let's see if there's any indicators that show you're progressing. If you're progressing, keep going. If not, let's talk about your food choices. Let's talk about nutrition. Let's talk about exercise. Let's talk about something else. Energy, psychology. Do something in addition to what you're doing to see if you can find the new input into the system. So I don't have a problem with any of those. I just think it's the intention and getting immersed in the experience. So much so that you lose yourself, the known self, the identity to something greater. And that whatever it is that gets you there, I think is the important moment.

So it's about going all in. And I kind of like to look at it like, well, what's the best food? Well, that depends on what you like. You can eat according to a certain. Like, don't eat stuff that's bad for you. But you could eat Thai under those rules, or you could eat Italian under those rules. And you know which one's best? I don't know what do you like what works for you?

And then throw in, do you feel guilty after you eat it? And are you judging it when you put it in your mouth. Because don't think that those things don't have an effect in creating polarity or at least diminishing the energy that you need to consume that food in the first place. So there's so many layers to. When we make the right choices for ourselves, we'll continuously make more of the right choices. But don't get rigid to the degree that things are now categorized as good and bad and right and wrong. And then if you think you're gonna do it, it's going to weaken your immune system. Well, of course it is, because you're accepting that thought. Like, every now and then, when I sit down and I let go and I'm with all my friends and we're in Mexico City and we're gonna eat a big meal, I always look around the table. I go, no guilt at this table, and I'm not afraid of gluten. Tonight we're going in. Let's just go. And that may be the moment, but does that mean I do that all the time? No. I take care of myself. But if I'm in joy and we're in love and everybody's connected and we're having fun, my goodness, enjoy it. And then get on with your life and recalibrate.

It's cultivating a feeling of safety while deciding to do that versus that. Oh, my God, I'm under threat. And it's tough for people, even people like me, who've. I used to weigh 300 pounds, right. And you get to a point where I know that every time I eat that, I feel drugged and I'm in pain for a week. And so I'm probably really not going to want to eat that because that's not how I want to let my hair down. But eventually, like, yeah, okay, who cares? All right. I'm in ketosis. I'm going to go out of ketosis for a while. I'm just not going to eat the stuff that hurts. Right. So you end up with this sort of thing where you're saying, you know what? I can accept, and I can decide what I'm going to do. And you can do the same thing on a spiritual practice as well. Like, I'm going to meditate every day this month, and if I miss a day, I'm not going to hell. I just missed a day. And maybe I'll have an extra cup of coffee and be okay.

Eyes open, eyes closed. That's what I would say.

Yeah, I like that very much. So is there a soul?

I think so.

Okay.

I do think So I think the soul is what connects us to singularity. I think we descended from singularity down into density. And I think our soul is really kind of like the spiritual brain. It records all the experiences that we have and it's a record of how we're doing to answer the question, is there more? And I think we descend down into singularity, from singularity down into density, fooled by our senses into separation. And I think that when we start living life and we start creating experiences, if we can overcome certain experiences emotionally, then the soul can't evolve. Because how can the soul move to another experience if a person's still branded emotionally from a past experience? So once the person overcomes the experience and overcomes it to such a degree that when they look back at it, there's no emotional charge, I think the memory without the emotional charge is wisdom. Now you don't have to repeat the experience. And the soul records that as wisdom. And now you're ready for the next experience, you're ready to evolve even further. So I think it's a record, kind of a spiritual brain that's recording all of our experiences from source down in density and then all the way back.

Has Ray Kurzweil ever sent you hate mail for using singularity in that way?

No, but I mean, he's the guy.

Who wrote the Singularity is near about. You can upload your brain to the Internet and all that just for people who didn't get the reference. But what do you mean by singularity is really where I was going with that.

Well, imagine if we can just explore the concept of oneness, of singularity, where there's no separation, right? So there's a. If there's no space and time in the quantum, how tiny is that point where there's no space? If there's. I mean, we only have only have time when there's a separation between two points of consciousness. There's me here and there's you there. There's me here and then there's the door on the opposite, opposite side of the room. And if I'm aware that I'm here and I'm aware that there's a door over there. And I'm going to move through space from one point of consciousness to another. It's going to take me a certain amount of time to get there. Well, that's what separation does. But if you're in a place where there's no space, then there can't be time. And it is the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest, tiniest point that is so small that it's singular. It's singular in nature. So we call that the zero point field. They call it singularity. They call it source.

They call it where the unmanifest. In some traditions, that same thing. And it's possible to go there and see that and experience that, right?

I hope so. Otherwise, all of this is a lie.

Have you been there?

Yes. I've had some really transcendental moments that have changed me forever.

What got you there?

I just spent a lot of time reading and studying the latent systems in the brain. I wrote a few articles about the pineal gland and its metabolites. I found some great researchers 15 years ago that just they weren't hippies and psychedelics. These were empirical scientists that spend their whole life studying this tiny little gland. And I just started really piecing together some of the things about it and. And then I just got in pursuit of it. I just started waking up at 4 in the morning when my brain chemistry was right and started practicing staying half awake and half asleep and keeping my attention on that, on that, on that gland and opening up. And then boom. Next thing you know, I just get another glimpse of Joe Dispenza. Another glimpse of who I really am greater than Joe Dispenza. And I think when we have these kind of experiences that I think we realize that we're not linear beings living a linear life. That when you start realizing that you're a dimensional being living a dimensional life, I think we become less attached to this reality. And I think I want to have those to such a degree that I don't want to go back to business as usual again. Because every time I've had one of those moments, I always say the same thing. When I come back to my identity, I always think, my God, I got this all wrong. That's the first thought I typically have. Like some conditioning, some veil, some illusion just tends to be removed. And I see things more clearly or I understand things better about what life is about. And I think we all have access to it. I think every single person has access to it. And if you want to hide that process somewhere, just put it within somebody, because I think they'll look everywhere else for it.

There's some, some value to reading spiritual or meditative literature before going to bed. A lot of practices, a lot of traditions talk about doing that. And I've certainly done that at times in my life more than others. And you're saying you were doing that. So you sort of program yourself so you go to sleep but now we have audible. And you know, you can actually listen to spiritual stuff. Things about the brain function or about altered states or whatever, whatever you're looking for. And you can leave them running while you fall asleep. And even while you're asleep. Good idea, Bad idea?

No, I mean, I think it's a good idea. I think your brain waves, when you go to bed at night, go from beta to alpha to theta to delta because brain chemistry changes. And when you wake up in the morning, you go from delta to theta to alpha to beta. So really there's two times the door to the subconscious mind opens up when we wake up in the morning and we go to bed at night. And a lot of times some, like for me, I'm a morning person. I'm up at 4:30 in the morning. That's when I do my personal work.

You're a bad person for that. Just want to make.

Just kidding. That's all right. That's all right. I could be bad. And then there are people that are friends of mine that are just musicians and writers and they stay up till like three in the morning and they love that kind of, that hour, that bewitching hour. And for me it doesn't matter. But what matters the most is getting caught in that realm where you're flirting between wakefulness and sleep. That is the door right there. So if we're putting information into our brain and we can still hear it and pay attention to begins to become recorded, we're laying down a new track. And so that information tends to be stored consciously as well as subconsciously. Now it's not once. What I notice is that if you're listening to something, if you really want to get it recorded subconsciously, listen to that same chapter a few nights in a row to the point where you could actually finish the sentence. Now when you get to that point where you can actually finish the sentence or you know the content and you can expect it, or anticipate it or predict it. Now you're starting to, to program it subconsciously. Now it's becoming a track that you're laying down. Now you're more prone then to keep it stored. So sometimes once is not enough. And if you're exposing yourself to information, I do it a few times.

There's also interesting science about repetition and spacing. And I think I wrote an article about this like seven years ago. It still should be on davehosprey.com, but there's a guy who went through and wrote software that would show you, okay, if you saw this, you know, three, three days in a row, then you space it out one week, then you space it out two weeks, and there's an equation for that. So if you really wanted something to be in and stay in even six months later, it would pop it up for you to look at it again. I don't actually use that, but I thought it was fascinating that you could do that, because I kind of feel like my brain will remember what I need it to remember, and it does. I can be on stage and I have absorbed a incredible amount of information, but I don't memorize it, and I couldn't finish any sentence, but I derived the meaning of the sentence in some sort of weird picture. And some of that comes to that idea that you speak of a lot about trust and kind of knowing where you are. And I know that I've got it because I already read it, I already wrote it, it's there, and it'll crystallize when I need it. What's going on neurologically when people are crystallizing when they need it?

Well, I'll talk about it on two levels. What some of the research shows is if you have a background in nutrition and you listen to something on nutrition, you got a lot of circuitry to add more stitches to, because you got a big mind. You got all those circuits in place that causes you to meet that information with a lot more hardware than the average person. The other person who has very little information or experience about nutrition is going to take more times to assemble circuitry and repeat it enough times that they. They begin to structurally create that level of mind. So sometimes it's a direct function of what your expertise is in, so you can listen to it once. Now I'm the same way. I get mic'd up and I always say to the guys, I have no idea what's going to come out of my mouth. And they say, oh, this should be good. Now, I trust the process because I have it all in there, and I'm going to rely on. I have an intention, but how it's going to happen and the process of it. I don't want to ever try to do it the same way, because I feel like if I do that, then it's disingenuous, it's not authentic. So there's a delicate balance between having an intention and then knowing your content so well, or at least believing in an outcome so well that you get out of the way and trust how the outcome is going to happen. And if you can lock into A stream of consciousness. And in the brain, the sum of the parts is greater than the whole, and you can begin to recombine it if you trust that process. That is the creative process. And the creative process means in creation, you're creating something out of nothing. You're actually in the unknown when you do that. And I think that that's when we're at our best. I think that's when we make the biggest strides in our own personal evolution. So just having it in there and just knowing that you're going to get to it and being able to recall it and develop it means you probably spend a lot of time thinking about a lot of things that you talk about anyway.

Yeah. So it can be crystallized in there. Okay. So that's part of it. The other thing is, I mean, you've written books, I've written books. And for me, it takes a little while to get into that writing state. I usually drink depending on whether I'm writing late at night, which I usually do. I put the red lights on, so I'm not going to break my biology. I'll drink decaf instead of full caf. But it takes about 45 minutes for me to, like, screw around to get into a writer's mode. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, this is connected to that. And I'm like one of those crazy people with pieces of yarn on a wall, except it's all happening in my head. And then I write stuff that's worthy and people like it and things like that. So I'm just going to say I think it's good, and the sales numbers tell me it's good. So I'm believing it. And what's going on during that transition period when I'm trying to get into writing mode.

Wow. I wish I had the answer to that because, I mean, I do the same thing. I mean, for me, what I typically do is go back and read the last thing I wrote and then think, oh, my God, who is going to believe any of this? You know, like, oh, my God, I thought it was so good when I wrote it. And you look at it and you're not sure. But I do think that quiescence is an important element in brain function. We got to kind of slow down our brain waves. We got to get out of our analytical mind and thinking, and there's got to kind of come this moment where the brain kind of pauses, and in quiescence, it kind of settles down. We move into that alpha state. That's the creative state. And then once you're in that alpha state. Now the creative brain starts working in the frontal lobe. The forebrain starts switching on, and it's accessing information from different parts of your brain as long as you're present and you're focused. So I think for certain people, there's a period where they just have to slow everything down, stop thinking about all the other things that happened in their day or in the last few days, and get into the present moment and just let the thoughts come in the way that they come without trying to force an outcome or control an outcome. And that's kind of the creative state that we all want to get to. And there's some cool research in neuroscience to show that. And you'll laugh at this because maybe you've seen the study, but a lot of times when we're starting in the creative process, we're in agony, like we're trying to piece all these ideas together. And then when they start flowing, they start connecting. You'll see a big spike and the person will be in ecstasy, like, oh, my God, I love what. I'm falling in love with my creation. So I think getting there, getting out of the way, calming the brain down, getting it out of the. Getting the stress hormones to settle down. Sometimes people that are late night people love to just wait till that point where that everything kind of settles down. There's nobody around, they got their own space, and the quiescence begins to activate some pretty cool neurological circuits.

That's exactly what I'm doing there. And you don't want to get bothered because if someone comes up and says, you know, daddy, can you look at this? You're like, you just caused me 45 minutes. If I can even get back into the state. No, I can't look at this right now. You know, and I fortunately learned to calm that response. But it's one of those things where you want to be present, but also for me at least, it is a bit of an altered state thing. And, I mean, I'd love to be able to put my electrodes on and know exactly what that state is. And maybe neurofeedback or maybe pulse the electromagnetic frequency it. And I'm kind of working on that, but we'll see. Do you ever do that when you're in a creative state? Do you run some currents over your brain or anything to put yourself somewhere?

I used to, but I don't do it as much anymore because I think for me, I just. I just.

You can turn it on.

I work on just turning it on without having Any external stimulation, I tend.

To be in the same state. Now, much of my writing, though, I have run gamma electrical current over my brain, which seems to help me get into those advanced monk states.

Super conscious state, right?

Yeah, why not? You know, someone's got to try it, and it seemed to work. Now, something else I wanted to ask you. There is great value, and I used to hate that this was true back when hate was a part of my vocabulary and practice. I'd say, well, look, I should be able to do this all by myself. But there's some things where it works better if you're at least with one other person, and ideally a small group or a large group. And I've had the honor of speaking on, you know, Tony Robbins main stage at Unleash the Power Thin. You know, there's 15,000 people, man. You can feel that energy unless you're really thick. You know, there's a room full of people doing trauma work. And I'm, you know, kind of in awe that Tony can. Can shift a room like that. And when I do stuff, my neuroscience thing, it's always four or five people, but if I have just one person there, it doesn't do the same thing. And so you're doing things in the thousand, two thousand type of person event, but now all of a sudden, like, well, you know, six feet away from anyone who's not living with you kind of a thing. What is that doing to spiritual progress for people when we physically don't have that, that togetherness that seems to me to be part of it?

Well, I. I know without a doubt that something energetically happens when you're in 3D reality and you're running an event where everybody's present, the community somehow has a huge component. And I think there's power in numbers. And I think the more coherence that's generated, the interference of everybody's fields with one another, the interference begins to create higher amplitudes. And the higher the amplitude, the higher the energy. And if you get enough people thinking the same way, feeling the same way, doing the same things, and you can get and train them into that frequency, there's energy in the room for healing. There's energy in the room or a transcendental moment. There's energy for the mystical, there's energy to create a new life. I mean, so getting people in that state with Community, I think, is super powerful. So, yeah, you know, we have zoom calls now and we have technology, but I mean, there's. I said to my staff the other day, there's nothing like a real life experience. There's nothing like. Because people are not checking their cell phones, they're not checking their emails, they're not up, you know, eating, you know, when you're in, when you're in that space, you're contributing to something, your energy is contributing to it as well and you're being of course consumed by it. So I think everybody's influencing everybody. So I'm a big fan of community.

I talked with Steve Aoki a little while ago who's been on the show, very large DJ and he does shows for 100,000 people and they're running back and forth and all that and same thing, it's this, there's an energetic connection, for lack of a better word, that I think everyone in the room, everyone at the event feels. And taking that out of society and replacing it with tech. I don't think tech can do that. Even if we have really good tech. And I put on my futurist hat 10 years from now, do you think tech is going to be able to quantum download my pineal gland into Zoom or anything like that? I mean, is there going to be a way of connecting like shared feedback or some kind of.

We'd have to get really good. We'd have to be really good because there's mirror neurons at play when you're in a community. I mean there's so much happening, pheromones, everything. There's so many. There's so much happening and I don't think in any way that a large number of people that's producing a large amount of energy is better than a medium size or small group of people that are producing coherent energy. The coherence is the strong thing. So there's an entraining process that happens that does just happens better in three dimensional reality. Does that mean it's impossible to do it? No. I mean we did a big event last month with 17,000 people online, but it took us a lot to get everybody in that zone. And I just think there's so many more things are happening in real time when you're more present in three dimensional reality. So I mean, I could be wrong, but I would choose that right now over anything.

Well, I believe that people will insist on that experience coming back whether or not there's some risk or not that they're getting to that point. Your website, drjodispenza.com has all kinds of good stuff and your books are absolutely worth reading. They're the kinds of things that if you only had, you know, a couple dozen books about how to upgrade yourself on your, on your shelf. It's hard to say which one. Probably I like your most recent one. Becoming Supernatural would be a good place to start. But just you've. You've done an amazing body of work where you're pulling together what used to be in the world of kind of woo woo, but actually has a measurability and a scientific nature to it. And as we all progress in the work we're doing, more and more of this is becoming visible that they just have too much data. There's too many sensors, too many ways of seeing and measuring, and you start going, wait a minute, there's a clear pattern here. We just can't measure it last year. And you're one of those guys who's at the very forefront of that, which is why I like your work and I thank you for it and thank you for being on the show.

Thank you, David. I appreciate all the things you do.

Also, do you want the highest ROI for your time? Listen to this, get a taste and then go deep. Get the audiobook, get the print book, but take some of this time that you're not using commuting. You can do dishes while you're listening, but use that to upgrade your brain, upgrade your consciousness, upgrade your awareness. Have a beautiful day. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.

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