What Medical Cannabis Can Do - Ricki Lake & Abby Epstein : 564

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You're listening to Bulletproof Radio with Dave Asprey. Today's cool fact of the day. We've just invented a new 3D printed sponge that soaks up extra drugs in your body. And they're bringing the filtering abilities of a fuel cell, something they'd use in a car or a cell phone, into the blood vessels of organisms. And initially, this is designed for cutting down the toxic effects of cancer treatment. This is a tiny little tube shaped sponge, 3D printed, and put inside a vein near a tumor that's being treated with chemo. So they put the drug in, they kill the tumor, and then the sponge absorbs the drugs before it goes to the rest of your body. So you don't do things like throw up, lose your hair, have heart failure and things like that. And this is so cool. Never in all of human history was this kind of ability even fathomable. And people say, dave, you're nuts. You're in Men's Health this month talking about living to at least 180. Like, well, we didn't have the ability to put filters in your blood vessels even last year, and now we do. Will this potentially increase human lifespan? I like to hope so. To date, studies have been done on pigs, but they're talking about human studies right now, which is just really cool. And for the record, pigs and humans are biologically quite similar. So stuff that works in pigs is much more likely to work in people. No, we are not made out of bacon.

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Next up, before we get into today's episode, which funny enough has nothing to do with bacon or blood filtering, so I've failed in my art of foreshadowing for you, we're going to talk about some profound effects that another chemical can have on the human body. And in the meantime, if you haven't picked up a copy of Game Changers, my new book, if you're a fan of the show and you'd like to understand what are the common elements that all of these people have done really big things to change the world, what do they all agree on? Where do they disagree? So that when you look at charting your own path in life on being a better provider, just showing up better as a human in all of your relationships, don't do what one guru did. Don't follow the tools of this one person. Do what works for lots of them. Prioritize properly and then pick the tools that work for your biology, for your personality. That's what Game Changers is about. It's thousands and thousands of hours of work to figure out what more than 450 game changing people prioritize so that you can just not waste your time and waste a lot of your life doing the wrong stuff that won't work for you. It's Game Changers. You can buy it anywhere, books are sold and if you've Bought the book and you love it. You know the importance of gratitude. Show gratitude by going to Amazon and leaving a review for Game Changers. I actually check the reviews every day I read them. And if you liked it, if it helped you, if one of those 46 laws in the book made a difference for you, just take 30 seconds and tell me about it by leaving a review. Thank you. All right, onto today's show. We are going to talk about cannabis and got a couple people you may have heard of. I'm talking about Ricky Lake and Abby Epstein. Yes. People you've definitely heard of. At least if you've been alive for the last 20 years, you've definitely heard of these people. These are especially Ricky, a beloved pop culture actress, her own talk show for a dozen years, and now making these really important documentary films about things that are affecting humanity. And Abby's an award winning director and producer of films. And the two, these two women have teamed up creatively for more than 10 years to make these powerful films. I can tell you I did not know that this is what Ricki Lake was working on. But when I had a chance to meet her, Ruki, I don't know if I'm allowed to say where I met you.

Of course, of course, yes, yes.

When I met her at Burning Man, a mutual friend introduced us and she told me what she was working. I'm like, wow, you've got to come on Bulletproof radio because your new documentary, Weed the People has really dug in on what cannabis is doing for children's cancer. And that's one of the reasons I did talk about cancer in our, in our initial cool fact of the day. So, Ricky, Abby, welcome to the show.

Thank you. It's a pleasure, It's a pleasure to talk to you.

Ricky. You're kind of a big deal.

In my own mind.

For people like me who didn't know that you had transitioned into making these documentary films. Tell me about why you stopped doing the talk show and started with the documentary the Business of being born, which 5 million people have watched it and things like that. What made you change?

9, 11. I mean, September 11th was a huge turning point in the trajectory of my entire life. Everything shifted from that day. I happened to be there in the West Village. I mean, a lot of things happened. I mean, I was. This is, you know, oh my gosh, it's. What is it? Almost 18 years ago. Cause I had given birth to my second child. I had this incredible home birth, water birth experience two months prior to September 11th. So it was the extreme of that experience of coming into my power and really healing my body from sexual abuse and body image issues and really having this transformative experience of becoming a mother again. And then two months later watching the plane fly down the Hudson and hit the building. And it was those two extreme experiences that really caused me to look at my life. And I made some major changes. And I really looked at the show I was doing, the Ricki Lake show, which was running at that time for 10 years. I realized it wasn't my voice, or at least I wanted to do something else that I felt was gonna be more impactful in a positive way. And not to put down that show because I believe I had that platform for the reason of being having that mainstream audience follow me for so many years to be able to put these, these, you know, provocative pieces of material out there that were, that's going to be easily, more easily received by this audience. So I think, you know, they both go hand in hand. But I really wanted to shift in a career that was doing something that I felt was more positive for, for the masses. And the Business of Being Born was a super personal project that, you know, Abby and I had worked together on the Vagina Monologues back in like 19 and became friends. She directed me in it. And so when I had this idea of wanting to really explore, you know, the world of birth, I mean, I was so baffled by the fact that all the people in my life, the women that I really respected and admired, didn't seem to care about how their babies were being born. They didn't care that they were disconnected from the process and numb from the experience. And I just wanted to explore that. So this, the Business Being Born was, you know, super personal. It was really something I had to do. It was like, you know, it was a, it's a passion project, but it was like I needed to see this to fruition. And this movie ended up being revolutionary. I mean, it's had this impact, you know, 10 years later, you know, came out in 2008, it's now 10 years later. I mean, there's been radical change that's happened in hospitals around the country because of the information that came from this film. And it's the most meaningful work to date for me. I've had a 30 year plus career and now with we the People, I mean, it is much more fulfilling for me as someone who's been a high profile person for so long to, to really make a difference. And yeah, I mean, it doesn't pay the bills like A talk show, I'm not gonna lie. But it's not about that at this stage in my life, you know, that's the long winded answer.

Well, it's a meaningful answer, Ricky. I've been open longtime listeners know I've talked about the effect of birth trauma on personality. I had no idea it played a role in my personality traits until I was 30 and I was born with an umbilical cord wrapped around my neck. And there is incontrovertible evidence that how you're born plays a major role in shaping personality traits and how you respond and show up in the world, at least until you go back and you kind of undo the traumas, which you can do. But wouldn't it be cooler if you didn't have to do that? Because hospitals and parents just knew. So I just have to say thanks for that film because you're hitting something that affects literally every single person born. And we had this wisdom hundreds of years ago, even a hundred years ago, and something shifted where it became sort of industrialized. And I would say that might be as important, if not more important, as having a proper food supply in terms of keeping our species strong and healthy and just being nice to each other.

Absolutely.

So you nailed it. Your social impact on the first one, amazing. And you've done some other things with Abby in that area, but now you're moving into cannabis and cancer. How did you guys decide that that was the next big thing to take on?

You want to take this one, Abby?

Well, no. I mean, I'm just laughing at the word decide. Right. Because I think it's always like. I don't know. I think with Ricky and I, I feel the projects really choose us. They're just, you know, kind of like information that needs to get out there. And a lot of times I feel like the way we've. We've worked, or up till now, at least, with business being born and we the People is. It's almost like Ricky has, like, a certain life experience and then her passion around it, you know, like, she shares the passion with me, and then somehow it becomes like a movie, you know, and that. That's basically what happened with Weed the People. It was like a very specific story happening in Ricky's life where Ricky and her late husband, Christian Evans, were helping a little girl. They were trying to help a little girl who was desperately ill and came across this idea of using CBD potentially to help her get through chemo. And, like, you know, cut to. All of a sudden, Ricky's calling me One day saying, you're not going to believe this. We're taking this little girl, I'm chartering a plane, we're flying her up to Mendocino to meet this cannabis physician and try to get her on these cannabis oils. And I was just like, I think this is a movie. Like, I'm coming and I'm bringing a crew. And, you know, if this is a movie, like, we'd have to start documenting it now. So it was just a real leap of faith. Like it was just a kind of a story that was unfolding in Ricky's life. And I think we were so taken by what we were discovering about the science of cannabis and the fact that it could help these children that it just, like, organically snowballed into a movie.

About 100 episodes ago or so, I had the guys from Charlotte's Web on the show.

The Stanley Brothers.

Yeah, the Stanley Brothers. I'm blanking on which of the Stanley Brothers was on. It'll come back to me. But the story was profound and I think most people missed it. This was a company that years ago realized that CBD Oil could have profound effects on kids with cancer and epilepsy and things like that. And 10,000 families relocated to Colorado, the only state where it was legal for them to use this medicine that would make their babies better. Even though big pharma drugs just didn't work, most of them had tried it first. So it's one of those, like, how could this be happening in our country? And then you fast forward a little while, and now you guys are digging really deep in the science and about the politics, about what's going on with cannabis. And it's kind of cool that it just came into your life and you decide you're going to use the power of your voice and being storytellers to tell the story. And you found five families with kids who had cancer, and you follow the parents who did this. So without spoiling the end of the movie, do all the kids make it?

That would be a spoiler.

I knew you weren't going to tell me that.

Yes, most of them do incredibly well. It's a positive movie. Yeah. So it's not like we make you sit through these tense stories for these tragic endings. I mean, it's definitely an uplifting, feel good movie, we'll say that much, right?

Yes. It's hopeful and it's dramatic and it's powerful.

You did something kind of risky, though. Okay. Cannabis for Adults is still controversial, and I'll be the first one to say it's not without risks, especially if you're smoking and vaping in that it lowers blood flow to the brain, but it also can have positive effects. And so if it works for you, works for your brain and it works for your medical situation, absolutely do it. But it's probably not something you want to do at high dose every single day if you have a typical brain. But you went straight for cannabis in kids. I mean, that's kind of like kids should start smoking and drinking alcohol too, in terms of the way people don't know what you're doing. So you kind of took the most controversial, most in your face approach about it. Not a conscious decision. That's just because what happened? Or I mean, what did you think about that?

It was a conscious decision with Abby. I mean, Abby, I mean, we were following other characters as well. We had an adult with stage four. I don't remember what kind of cancer she had, but it was Abby's idea to kind of streamline and focus specifically on these children because it takes the stigma away. You know, this is not about getting high.

Most definitely, if someone listening thinks it's about getting your kids high, like go to a therapist or something, I don't think anyone, anyone sane would advocate for that. It's more about reducing suffering or saving someone.

Like once you know this information, like once you go into these labs in Israel and you see the research they're doing and you see some of this anecdotal evidence, you know, it does become that thing where you're like, oh my God, like, why doesn't everyone know this? Right? Everybody needs to know about this. Everybody needs to have access to this information. And I think for Ricky and I, like, that's a big driver for us, you know, like with the business of being born, that was a big driver. It was like, why don't women know that there's more than one way to have a baby? Or, you know, it's like people are just not getting this information or there's so much stigma and so much brainwashing around it that people who could be really helped by this are not being helped. And that's when it, you know, becomes a human rights issue to us. Because you're taking a potentially life saving, you know, solution or a potentially life savings plant or medicine, however you want to label it, and you're, you're keeping that from people and it's that dramatic and it's that urgent. So, you know, I, I think that was also one of the reasons that we stayed focused on, on Children was to. To really, you know, move people emotionally around this and sort of humanize this issue. Because a lot of people will just think of it as like, oh, yeah, that person who's going through chemo, losing their hair and they're nauseous, so they're smoking a joint. And what we're trying to show in the film is no, there's actually clinical evidence about the ways that cannabis kills cancer. You know, and that's. It's. It's a whole nother level that people.

Aren'T aware of when, when watching the film. What stands out is that all of the families you followed weren't the. I'm going to affectionately call them the tinfoil hat. I live on a farm on an island, by the way. I live on a farm on an island. So. But, you know, where's your hat? Right, exactly. But these are not people who are saying no drugs at any cost. These are people all actually used allopathic medicine on their kids, which is also something very different. So it's not an anti pharma, even an anti chemo film. You're just saying by letting kids, or more importantly, letting families choose to use whatever works for their kids that you reduce suffering and had better outcomes. Right.

And I think, you know, what, what we were really clear in the film that we were only going to show families who were using allopathic medicine, using western medicine, and had like, four full support of their oncologist to use the cannabis. We were not going to follow anybody going rogue, you know, anybody like, you know, not doing chemo. And I think that that's sort of, you know, what the movie ultimately shows is there seems to be a really synergistic effect where the cannabis makes the chemo more effective and it also makes the chemo more tolerable for the body. So, you know, that's. It's definitely something that we wanted to put out. There is like, you know, if you're getting better results potentially using both, like, why wouldn't everybody try that? You know, because there's very little downside to like, adding the cannabis oil in. So, you know, I don't want to give away the movie, but there's a few cases in the movie where there's really no other explanation to how the child survived other than, you know, the fact that they used both, you know, cannabis and chemo, either one or the other, or both at the same time. And we can't prove anything clinically. Of course. You know, no one can prove anything at this point. But, you know, it just feels like if it's such a safe substance, cannabis in terms of, like, there's no toxicity, there's no risk of overdose. So it is something that, you know, if it feels like there's any chance that this could, you know, make a huge difference in somebody's prognosis or treatment, then why not, you know?

Now, were these kids using CBD that was THC free, or were they using.

No, it's whole plant spectrum and in fact, it's high, high doses of THC in many cases.

So when you say there's no overdose or no risk, I mean, at least in adults, there's cases where high doses of THC do induce psychosis. In fact, it happened to a great friend of mine who's written up in a book, padded wagon, took him away sort of thing. But he ended up, he's like, well, I kind of had a spiritual experience. Even though I went clinically crazy for a while, I think it was good for me overall. But so, like, I mean, I, I'm.

Saying you can, you can't overdose in the sense that the body physically can't overdose on cannabis. Whereas a lot of these kids might be taking OxyContin. You know, they're taking Vicodin. I mean, they're taking like heavy, heavy duty painkillers that are. Yeah. Respiratory depressants that they could very easily overdose and die. You know, with, with cannabis, there's no risk of, of like death by, you know, giving somebody too much. They might be. You're right, they might be very uncomfortable or have too much, you know. Absolutely.

They might just get the munchies like crazy. Yeah, kids are born with the munchies.

They'll sleep it off or, you know, it'll. Yeah, it'll, it'll go away. So it's, it's safer profile than a lot of the hardcore drugs that they're.

Already being given and, and were there. So it's really cool in the film because you actually have documentary footage of doctors, real oncology doctors in hospitals saying, okay, give this to the kids because that first do no harm. You're saying, well, okay, like you said, this is safer than a lot of the hardcore painkillers. Was there a reduction in painkiller usage in the kids?

Yes, yes, there you go. One child in particular, we kind of don't want to give it away. But this, this, this teenager, I mean, night and day, night and day, they.

Had him, they had him off all of his opiates within 72 hours. They, they couldn't believe it from a sesame seed size dot of cannabis extract. Like their family was like, this isn't going to work. We wasted our money. How can this little tiny sesame seed under his tongue, literally within three days they will tell you he was off every single pain med.

Wow. And this has to do with those 1100 endocannabinoid receptors that we've identified in our brains. One of my concerns, I understand you guys are filmmakers, not necessarily the scientific people behind it. So if this is outside, we are not. I have noticed that different CBD oils work differently on different people. So you have someone who says this stuff completely, just everything is better and the next person takes it. That doesn't do anything for me. But then they switch gears and try a different one and it works. So how did the oncologists in the documentary and we, the people, how did they know, oh, this is the right extract to use? I use the full spectrum from sativa versus another strain. Like, how does a lab coat wearing doctor with a medical license make that decision without enough information?

It's a good question. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's not, you know, everyone's endocannabinoid system is completely unique to them. So it's trial and error. I mean, there's so many different strains, there's so many different. I mean, the dosing is a major issue because everyone handles it differently. I mean, for me personally, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, I use it medicinally, recreationally, but it's different every time for me, whether I have food in my system, you know, whether I, I can't figure it out. Like I'll take an edible to relax and it gives me this energy. Like it's just, it's, it's different. And so, yeah, it's, I mean, and it wasn't the oncologist decision, right? It was, you know, working with Mara, working with Dr. Goldstein, Bonnie Goldstein, who's a, you know, a physician and also a cannabis, you know, doctor. It's, it's pretty much trial and error, wouldn't you say? AB?

Yeah, I mean, this is the biggest problem. This is the biggest problem. It's just that the, it's all still experimentation. It's trial and error. And unfortunately, it's like there are very few doctors that have dosing protocols and they're in very high demand. And like I got a desperate call yesterday from somebody who has a terminal eight year old child and desperately wanted to talk to Dr. Goldstein, who's featured in our film. And Dr. Goldstein told me because of the new laws, she can't even do a telephone consult with an out of state patient, but yet that patient could call a dispensary and talk to them all day long. So the problem right now with cannabis medicine is that a lot of the dosing and the prescribing is unfortunately falling into the hands of the actual, you know, cannabis oil makers, you know, the. The dispensary owners, the people who are making the medicine. So they're collecting a lot of data about how their patients are doing. And you see that in our film, there are very few doctors who are getting trained in this, who are interested in this at all. And we show the handful of oncologists in our film who are interested in learning more. But the reason they're interested is because they've seen how well their patients are doing and they want to learn more. But it's very, very interesting. And one of the scientists in the film, Deddy Mary, he's at the Technion in Tel Aviv in Haifa. Sorry. And he is this top cancer biologist, like, one of the top cancer biologists in the world. And the reason that he even became interested in this is because when he was doing his residency in Toronto, there was a little girl who had leukemia. And the father went and got her some cannabis oil from a local dispensary and, you know, thought it would be like a palliative thing. Her leukemia ended up going into full remission. And then he went to another dispensary and got a different oil when that, like, strain ran out and her leukemia came back. And so they studied this in Toronto because they realized that there were obviously a pattern of cannabinoids in the first strain that helped the leukemia that wasn't in the second strain. So it's. This is all, you know, what we show in the film is that this is all going on right now in the laboratory level, where they're trying to match different cancers to different strains, because that's what they're seeing in the test tube is that one strain will work on breast cancer, but not colon cancer. So it's just. It's fascinating, but it's a very young science, and unfortunately, patients just don't have the time to wait.

I'm actually backing a company called Level Blends. That's in the CBD space.

Yeah, we know David, David Dacus.

He's amazing.

I'm an advisor and a very small investor because they're going out to specifically say, okay, what is every little thing and every little strain? So they can sort some of the science out. But I would be uncomfortable saying, hey, these guys are making the latest. Let's everyone get high. I'm not opposed to that, if that's what you want to do. But in terms of having medical predictability, I still find it irritating that the stuff that works for a lot of people, that's allegedly THC free, I can take it. And I just get tired and hungry. Like, I just lost four hours of productivity, and maybe I'm less inflamed, but I wasn't supposed to get high from this. I didn't get high from it. I just got kind of zonked. And I would love to be able to know, just like with coffee, different strains of coffee do different things, different types of alcohol do different things. So someone has to do the science. And what you're saying is the doctors are still working on it, too?

Yeah, I mean, I think who's working on it? To be honest with you, it's the cannabis companies.

Yeah.

And I think that, you know, it was interesting because we were invited to screen the film for Parliament in London over the summer. And what was clear was at the screening, there were all these, you know, bankers from Canada. And it was just very clear that the whole movement has switched from kind of health advocacy and, you know, sort of hippie movement to more of a financial movement. And now it's really money that's moving research and money that's legitimizing, you know, cannabis to a certain degree. So it's going to take a while. You know, I think it is still very, you know, hard because I think doctors, they don't learn about the cannabino, you know, endocannabinoid system in med school. It's not being taught. You know, it's still, to a large degree, not legitimate. But I think when you're in a position where a loved one is sick, and we've had so many times where I think Ricky and I both would say this, you know, where somebody has cancer or somebody has this, and they're like, oh, my God, I need to see the movie. And they'll see the movie. And then 100% they're coming back going, where can I get these oils? You know, because I think that people are desperate for other tools to help in this fight against cancer. And there is so much cancer that, you know, people are really willing to try this. And the stories that come out, like a few of them you see in the film, that really seem like miracles, right? It's like those stories, I think you know, people see them on the Internet or, you know, and they're, they're really kind of beyond explanation. So you're just, you know, everybody is sort of wants to at least, at least try. And in the film we only open can talk about cancer. Right. I mean, there's just now so many different conditions that cannabis is helping.

The problem though, is that it's still listed as a Schedule 1 drug, which means no accepted medical use and high potential for abuse.

Then there's that.

Yeah. And so there's. I mean, I've talked with the CEOs of some of the largest beverage and consumer packaged goods companies in the world. And it's really cool because running Bulletproof, being our CEO, I get to meet people who are literally controlling many billions of dollars in what we put in our bodies. And the good news is they're all curious. They all got the message we sent them over the last 15 years that said, stop giving us crap because we won't buy it anymore. So they're all kind of scratching heads going, what do we do? And several of them said, dave, what do you think about CBD Oil? I'm like, well, I know it kind of works and I know that whoever does it first is probably going to get smacked around a little bit, even if it's without thc. So there's kind of this big pressure from big companies going, should we be the one? Should we be the one? But none of them is willing to go up against that and say, okay, maybe something's wrong. So tell me about the patent that the government holds on this high potential, no medical use drug. How does that work?

It's ridiculous. Yeah, I mean, you know, you're in Canada, right? I mean, what's it like for you? I mean, is there access everywhere for you to get, get anything and everything you want?

I think now in British Columbia on the west coast here, I think you can get whatever you want. I see the dispensaries all over the place. But honestly, it's not the drug that works for me. I'm a caffeine and potentially an oral, non smoked, non tobacco, nicotine kind of guy, or whatever happens at Burning Man. But I'm extremely behind the idea that it's our biology, it's our bodies, it's our right to put whatever we want in our body. Even if someone believes it's not going to work. And frankly, even if it probably won't work, I should be allowed to roll the dice if my own life is at stake, especially if I have a Terminal condition. It's like if you have a terminal condition and someone tries to stop you from saving yourself. Look, they have no right. It is life and death, and it's your life, not theirs. So I'm 100% behind what you're doing, but I couldn't tell you whether I'm allowed to go buy pot because, frankly, haven't had a need to.

Well, and I think there's a lot of people like that. I mean, going back to the patent, I mean, yes, it's ridiculous at this point. It's just stupid hypocrisy.

Tell me about it. Like, what is the patent for?

So the government patented in 2003, they patented CBD as an antioxidant and a neuroprotectant.

Oops. No medical value.

Right, Exactly. That's saying no medical value, Schedule 1. And, you know, yet they have a patent on this substance. So, you know, clearly the prohibition of cannabis is just. Honestly, it's about racism and greed and political motivation. It's about nothing more. It really has nothing to do with, you know, the medical value of the plant. And, you know, I think the US Is going to have to turn on this and deschedule this soon. But I do say, because, you know, I'm also one of those people, Dave, where I'm not a cannabis person. Like, I never have been. I've never responded well to it. I don't feel like it's ever done anything for me. You know, people give me tons of bottles of CBD and like, I take tons of it and I'm like, I'm not sleeping better. I don't feel it. But I think one of the things you have to remember is that what's so interesting about the plant is that it's all patient titrated, so it's an immunoregulator. So essentially it goes in and it may do something different for every single person who takes it. It's an adaptogen. So it's like your endocannabinoid system may be just great, you know what I mean? You don't need it. And so when you put it into your body, it actually takes things like down a notch, you know, or you may be using the wrong cannabinoid. Like you may be needing THC A or THCV or, you know what I mean? There may be other cannabinoids that we, you know, which will be the next CBDs that we'll all be hearing about that work for you. And that's what's so fascinating about it. And I think, you know, like, I've been giving it to my son for adhd and I started him on CBD and that was helpful. But now I've switched him to thca, which is the raw amino form of thc. It's the non psychoactive and that's I think been even better for him than the cbd, you know, but it's like I can take a bottle of that THCA and it does nothing for me because, you know, it's not, I don't, I don't need it. So that's, I think, a little bit of the philosophy behind it.

It's really awesome that you're open about that. It's the same thing with nootropics. I've been taking smart drugs for more than 20 years now on a daily basis. And I'm one of the people who kind of put them in the biohacking world and went on Nightline talking about modafinil and kind of made this, hey, maybe you really could take a supplement that does that. But what drives me nuts is, especially when you get to the pharmaceutical side, the stuff that works for person A doesn't do anything for person B. Or it gives them a headache. So it's like you got to go out and try a couple and see what works. The plant based ones tend to be more reliable, which is why that's the stuff that I formulate. But just recognizing, just like with nutrition, look, you may need more protein than your husband or wife, you may need a different kind of fat. But there are some rules that work for everyone and that it's okay to experiment. And that old medical model that's like this drug will work on everybody, well, that doesn't work for drugs either because there's what's going on in your gut, bacteria, what's going with your genetics. So we will untangle this. I just don't know how quickly with machine learning and big data and genetics and all that. But you've talked to more researchers than I have. How, how hopeful are you that we're going to get to the bottom of this in different timeframes? Like is this a five year problem, a 10 year problem, a 100 year problem?

I think the scheduling needs to change first, you know, so that we can do the research in this country and do real studies. You know, there's a block, you know, that, that the federal blocking, you know, we work with UCLA now they have a cannabis research initiative that they're like, you know, more than 18 months in they're super proud of it, but they're, they're having such issues raising, raising money because of the scheduling. So do we. I mean, obviously I do believe in our lifetime. Yes, the same scheduling is going to be, it'll be descheduled. I do believe that. But you know, this week we can't do much of anything in this country with research, real research, you know, as opposed to anecdotal.

Until that changes, I'm going to play devil's advocate. I mean, a lot of the anti aging technologies that I use, stem cells, some of the other lasers, other things, yeah, you kind of got to go somewhere else. So there's an issue of national competitiveness. You guys went to Israel for weed, the people. And you talk with scientists there who are willing to do cutting edge stuff. Just like if you want natural killer cells for cancer, you can go to Israel. And they're doing these amazing things for cancer in the U.S. they're like, that doesn't exist. And you're like, but, but it does over there. So eventually, if we don't take it off the schedule, it's an issue of national competitiveness.

And yeah, and I think with Canada, with Canada becoming legal, I mean, you know, we don't want to be second. So maybe that'll push things to change in the U.S.

I'M hopeful. So you're saying if things change in terms of just being allowed to do research on it, and I would say, well, while we're at it, we might as well take all of the other plant medicines and take those off the schedule too. And say if you're doing medical research, especially on terminal people and it's well controlled, let's not, let's not say that quote, no medical benefit. Because people who've studied logic, like me in computer science or philosophy, or have a brain, or have a brain, you know, you can't disprove something, right? Like it doesn't work. So what they're saying is we don't know of a medical benefit, but since we stopped studying it, we never will. And like, that's just dumb. I cannot get behind that as a human being. And I think it actually causes immense suffering or at least it takes away options for people who are going to die anyway. And those are both crimes against humanity level behaviors. It's not. Okay. Can you tell me one of the most inspiring things that you saw when you were filming the movie? Just give me a story, whether it made it into the final cut or not, but something that you saw where you're like, that could not have happened, but it just did.

Oh, my God, there's so many things. I mean, I think one of the things in the stories, like I. I was just sort of blown away by the parents and especially the moms. Like, in many ways the film is really a testament to, you know, how far parents will go for the love of their children. And, you know, there's one of the moms in the film who's just so incredible. And I remember when we were in the pediatric oncology ward at UCLA and her son was going through a particularly bad round of chemo and this woman had done so much research, she was going to a naturopath and bringing like all the naturopathic, you know, medicines, everything, you know, all the powders, the glutamine, everything. She was bringing it, like, into the oncology ward and trying to get the doctors excited about it, which of course they were like, you know, take your naturopathy and go away. But when they saw like some of the results that she got, like she was able to get rid of all his mouth sores with glutamine powder, you know, and they were like, oh my God, we should do a clinical trial on glutamine, you know, and like they were giving him all these anti nausea drugs that weren't working. And then she brought in the cannabis and they couldn't believe it. And they were like, okay, I don't know, but just give him more of that. Whatever you're doing, give him more. So it was incredible. We were sitting in a hospital room in UCLA and this mom had two jars of cannabis oil in Tostitos jars. She had literally cleaned out Tostitos and salsa jars and had one CBD and one thc. And she was putting it into her son's G tube, like directly putting it into his G tube in front of the nurses, in front of the doctors. And again, like you were just saying, Dave, it's like schedule one substance, federally legal. People are being locked up for this. People are in jail. And this woman is like injecting it into her dying child's G2. I mean, it's like, it's. It's so crazy. It's crazy. And it's crazy that, you know, her doctor, her child did so well, recovered so well, that her, his oncologist actually went on the board of the cannabis company because he just, you know, couldn't believe, like, what this had done for this kid. So it's just like, it feels to me like it's just chaotic. Everything around this plant Is chaotic. Like the laws are chaotic. Using it is very chaotic. Like, you know, all these different ways to deliver it and health. And I feel like right now what's going on legally state to state is, is chaotic because I think it's all happening backwards and I think the government got way behind the eight ball on this and the people got in front of the government and you know, now it's like they've got a backtrack and figure this out. So, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. It's a pretty, I think it's going to be pretty messy for a while.

I've been looking at the numbers and in states where it's legal just for recreational use, not the medical uses we're talking about here, there's about a 4x increase in the number of heavy users. So the net number of new users isn't particularly that different. But the number of people who are like I do it every day is way up. And for most people doing cannabis every single day probably has long term negative brain effects. Are you worried about that?

I mean, we just don't, we didn't cover anything about legalization or recreational use in the movies. So I don't really, like, we don't really know much about those statistics or like we didn't really weigh in on legalization because we wanted to keep this like so specifically medicinal.

And we do think that the recreation, the whole issue with recreational use is really having a negative impact on the medicinal, you know, and it's like a disservice, you know, and it's really two separate issues, you know. So really the movie stays away from legalization in general. You know, it's about, we want, it's a human rights issue, you know.

Okay, you want it to be legal for medical research and medical use.

I want it to be legal ever. I mean, I believe, but it's a personal belief, you know, I believe anyone who, who wants this plant should have access to it, should they need it, you know. But yeah, you know, these kids with cancer, it's like they should, they should come first, you know, as opposed to these people that want to, you know, get. I mean, you know, I don't want to. I'm hopeful that, you know, that the government is going to do the right thing for particularly these sick people that need it.

20 years ago when you were running the Ricki Lake show, did you think that you would be saying this?

I mean, it's. Anybody that's known me, I was the most judgmental Fear filled, like War on Drugs. I mean, I, I, it's so funny because, you know, back when I did that show I had this platform and I came off as this, you know, open minded and it's just, I've come a long way, I mean, even with psychedelics and my, my, my opinion on them, my experience with them. Yeah, you know, I credit my, my, my beloved husband who passed away, Christian Evans, he really shed some light, real light on this for me. And I, I've come full circle. You know, I, I never thought that I'd be an advocate for medicinal cannabis and putting out these projects. But hey, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's really important. I'm really, really proud of the work that we're doing and I do believe it's making a difference. Even with these children in the film, you know, they, they have been saved. I believe in my opinion, that they have been saved by, by having access to this medicine.

I think you're onto something there. And I also really genuinely appreciate, Ricky, your willingness to talk about that. I've evolved as a human because it feels like sometimes these days it's easy to go back 20, 25 years ago and look at someone's work and say, oh, this is that person. But we learn and new science comes out and things evolve. And I'm happy that you're open to the evolution and I'm hoping that people listening will, will also do that, you know, do that in their own lives and just be like, hey, you can reconsider something that you once took to be a fact. And I think it's time for cannabis to say, look, it has benefits. It is not without risk. But given cancer, the risk of cancer is pretty darn high if you have it. So that risk is going to be higher than whatever risk of cannabis. So like there, it's just, it's a basic thing. And I'm also grateful that you guys are giving bulletproof listeners a 30% off discount who want to see the movie, which is generous. And just if you're listening to this, this is just a gift from Ricky and Abby and I have no financial interest or anything like that in this. So just because you listen to bulletproof radio, you just save something. You can go to weedthepeoplemovie.com Dave and use code WTP Dave, and they'll give you 30% off the regular digital download price, which is a generous offer. And I'm happy if you decide to watch it because I think you'll find that there's some science in it and there's also some inspiration. And if you're of the mindset where this is the devil's weed, that is not borne out by the science. And if you're of the mindset that everyone should be doing half a pound a day, that is probably also not borne out by the science. But you'll learn something from the film and you'll get a new perspective. And if you are dealing with cancer or chronic illness or chronic pain in your family, you probably doubly need to go watch Weed the People because there's some really good stuff in there for you. That's weedthepeoplemovie.com Dave use code WTP Dave to get 30% off the digital download price. You can also go to the Bulletproof blog and go to the Show Notes page and of course we'll have the transcript for you. And you can get the code and you can get the download link just by going to the website. I have one more question for you guys.

Let us have it now.

I've been talking openly about the fact that I'm planning to live to at least 180 years old and I'm planning to do that without falling into the trap of tubes, diapers, putting my car keys in the refrigerator and basically losing my faculties as I go. And some people think I'm nuts, some people think that sounds really cool. And here's my question. And Ricky, I'd love you to go first on this. Given all the stuff you know about cannabis, all the other things you've experienced, how long do you think you can live?

Oh my goodness. How long do I want to live? I do not want to live to 180. I mean, it's about quality versus quantity for me. So I want to have a quality life. You know, having lost my husband almost two years ago to bipolar and mental illness, you know, he suffered, he suffered most days we were together, you know, and I just want to live a fulfilling, productive, happy, joy filled life for as long as I can. And so, you know, I mean, I say that like Burning man for instance. I'm going to go every year that my body and my wallet allow. You know, I want my, my, my body and my mind to hold up. And yeah, so I mean I, I don't necessarily need to live a long, long life. I just want it to be quality.

Beautiful. Abby, what do you think?

So it's how long do I want or do I need or how long can you.

And how long do you want to. I Want to understand people's attitudes towards this idea. Look, maybe I could live as long as I want with a high quality of life. What do you think is possible? What do you want to do?

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I would definitely opt for length.

That's going to be my new ringtone for you.

Yeah, I will opt.

That can be applied for a lot of different things.

I'll take that all around. Yeah. So definitely, I mean, for sure. I would love another 50 years. I'm approaching the 50 mark, so I would like to have another 50. I would like to double what I've lived. And I think I could probably do that fairly well. Like, you know, with a pretty. Pretty good kind of quality of life.

Why 180, Dave? Why 180 and not 200? Why not round it up?

My real number is at least 180. And the reality behind that is I would like to die at a time and buy a method of my own choosing.

Yes.

And the reason I came up with 180 as being feasible is really basic stuff. We know we can do 120 because we've seen it happen. There's multiple documented cases of people in their low 120s, so it's possible and inarguable at this point. And I kind of feel like, given what we know now, starting before I'm 50, if I start reducing the damage of metabolic stress and all the things that we know whittle away at your ability to live a long time, 120 ought to be achievable, assuming a truck doesn't drive into me or something. Ridiculous. And I look back a hundred years. We didn't have antibiotics, we didn't have DNA. We didn't understand mitochondria. We didn't have big data. We didn't have machine learning. We didn't have the Internet, for God's sake. For doing research. And I could do more research now than a doctor could do in two years in 1970 because they had to use microfiche. Do you guys remember those dumb things? Half the people listening have never seen one.

Right?

So given all that, if we can't extend human lifespan by 50% in the next hundred fricking years, then I'm stupid. We can do that. And I know the people doing the research right now. They've been on the show. They're my friends. I have one company I'm working with. They've extended the life of rats by 93%. I'm taking that stuff. I'm not a rat. Just give me 10%. I'm good. So I know this is going to happen. And this isn't my first disruption. My only quest now is I want the people who live a long time to be full of wisdom and giving back to their community instead of being a burden on their community. Oh, yes, and that's why quality of life matters. So that's why I think about it this way. I'm not worried about overpopulation because my first book was on fertility and the fertility rate is dropping globally because of what we've done to our environment. Don't worry about that. Worry about being a great human being who gives back and live a long time.

What about our planet? What about having a planet that's healthy and that is going to keep us going? Does that worry you at all?

Are you going to pollute the sandbox? If you're going to be in it for 180 years, you're not.

But what about everyone else?

Well, I think that if you have a long term vision that says I'm going to be around for way longer than I expected, you have to start taking a longer term view. And the longer you've had a chance to experience life, the more you realize that you pay for something now that you did 20 years ago. And I think we can actually have this idea of the village elders who used to pass down knowledge we can do that better now and that we'll actually have a better environment because fertility rates and birth rates are dropping in most of the westernized countries right now. And I think what we need is people who care deeply and are going to be around for a long time to be better shepherds of the world instead of just, you know, having babies, getting out of the way and letting the next generation repeat the mistakes of the first, which is how Mother Nature designed it. Shame on you, Mother Nature. We can do better. Wow.

Well, I like what you're thinking about. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Maybe I do want to join you in the hundred.

If you felt good, Ricky, Abby, and your brain was on and you were able to sit down and connect with people and say, in the last hundred years I've seen so much and here's where you are on the curve and people would listen to you, wouldn't that just be awesome? Wouldn't your impact be amplified? And the reason I say this, I learned a lot of what I know from people who were in their 80s when I was in my 20s, because I ran an anti Asian nonprofit group. And trust me, old people, they know stuff that we don't know because we're not old yet. And when I'm old, I hope I'm in a position to give back even more. And so that's where this all comes from.

Amazing. You're amazing.

Thank you. But one of those is the knowledge you have that you're passing on in we the People, the path you've walked, it's of value, right? And I think by sharing that on the show and just by sharing with people in our lives, we can make the world a better place. And that's why I asked that question, like, what are you going to do if you have a long time? Cool.

Such a pleasure.

Thank you for being on Bulletproof Radio and thanks for thinking about living way longer than you're supposed to. And thank you for making Weed the People and for sharing it with Bulletproof listeners. It's a film that's worth paying attention to, and you have a track record of doing that because your other films that the two of you have collaborated on, the Business of Being Born, is also a very important film. So thanks for telling the story about things that matter. And keep doing it.

Thank you. It's a pleasure, Dave.

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