Why I Inject a “Female Hormone” 3x a Week (Nootropic Hacking) : 1311

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Most people think estrogen is the devil, but for men, it actually drives a lot of our sex drive and a lot of our cognition. Most people, when they get super, super lean, they're gonna aromatize less of their testosterone into estrogen, which leads to lower libido. It leads to kind of this brain fog.

Jay Campbell and Hunter Williams have spent years at the edges of health science using tools most people never hear about outside the dark corners of the gym. Advanced peptides bioregulators. They're bringing what fringe into the future? Human upgrades so cutting edge, they feel like magic with the science to back them up.

Most men today who have been using therapeutic testosterone for a long time have what we Call either testosterone or estrogen resistant syndrome.

What do you recommend for people on testosterone from a peptide perspective? Do you actually inject estrogen? You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. In the very early days of biohacking, I was using peptides and I didn't bring them out in the front line of things because the world may not have been ready for that. I wanted to push the boundaries of biohacking but not explode them.

Right.

So that people would just say, this is too crazy. So it was like, let's let this cook for about seven years and become a movement. And then we'll slowly talk about things like BPC or ghk, these other peptides that are really important. And I put them in my longevity book, including bioregulators, which are just exploding.

Yeah.

And what I'm finding today is that the number of peptides that a person could use exceeds the amount of skin area for injecting that they have, for sure. So what is the framework that you recommend for understanding how you might want to use peptides for longevity, for cognition, for consciousness, for body recomposition? Just how do you think about them now?

It's a great question. I think people today have to first get to what I call the precepts or the foundation. And, you know, first, you know, are you getting enough sleep? The things you talk about a lot, right? Are you getting enough sleep? Are you getting six to eight hours of sleep? Are you hormonally optimized? One of the biggest issues for people that want to go into peptides is finding out whether or not they have a hormone deficiency. And as you know, it's so bad in our current environment, especially in the west, because of the poisons in the air. The water, the flylates and the disrupting chemicals are everywhere, right?

I mean, all the blue hair dye alone just drops testosterone like no one's business.

Blue and purple hair don't care. Does not help matters, Right? But no, but it's true. Like that's the first, you know, are you. And then of course, are you living insulin controlled? Are you training, you know, combination of cardiovascular and lifting weights or some form of resistance training? Like we always tell people that that's most important before you dive into peptides. But having that said or having that dialed in, then starting with peptides, I think it comes down to what is your biggest need in today's environment. Most people are metabolically dysregulated, right? They have insulin resistance, they have too much belly fat or too much hip and Lower regional fat. So it's like, what can I do to increase my metabolism? Lose body fat, get cleaner health. And then I would say after that, it's healing, it's cognitive enhancement or restoration. And then from there, it's longevity.

Yeah. I read a business book one time, and one thing that always stuck with me is I forget what book it was, but it said, fix your bleeding neck problem first. And I think with peptides, what it is, is people go onto peptide websites or they look at our videos, your videos, and they say, okay, well, I want to lose fat, I want to build muscle, I want to turn my brain into a supercomputer, I want to increase my sex drive. And yeah, it'd be nice if I could have, like, superhuman performance, but if you're 50 pounds overweight, you kind of have to go in steps to get to that place. Or if you're 50 pounds overweight, but you have a broken foot, you probably want to heal your broken foot first before you start focusing on the weight loss. So I think for people, it's kind of going through a diagnostic of saying, what do I need to fix in my life? What's the bleeding neck problem? Address that. And then, okay, if I want to attack some of these things down the road. And the good thing about doing that is as people get more comfortable with using peptides, they actually build a framework around what they're comfortable with. Because as Jay and I well know, there's some people that respond amazing to one peptide, and then maybe 40 or 50% of people have a terrible reaction to that peptide. So I think it's address the bleeding neck problem first, go from there. Then you build a framework for yourself of, okay, this peptide worked for me. This one really doesn't work for me. And then, like Jay said, getting your hormones and metabolic health in order is the first thing. And then once you do that, peptides work amazing. But if you're not hormonally optimized and you're not doing the things from a lifestyle perspective that work, they're going to maybe work 3 out of 10 instead of 10 out of 10.

Yeah, that can't be true for all peptides.

There's a lot of peptides that you can use without anything. You know, the healing peptides. I think most people are familiar with BPC157, which is body protective compound.

It was named after bulletproof coffee.

Trademark. That's really good. TB 500. Right. Thymosin beta. I mean, both of those peptides will work for most people regardless of Their.

Condition, they're good entry level and yeah. And I just have to do a shout out for people who've never tried peptides.

I know, right?

You should try PT141 if you don't think they work. Right. So PT141 is a side chain of melanotan, which is what gives you a tan, but it makes you incredibly horny. So if you use a little bit of PT141, one of two things is going to happen. Most likely you're going to be really like, wow, I that's a lot of sex drive. And it works for men and women. And you might also be incredibly nauseous. Right. And it's one of those things where you got to figure out the dose and it sucks having tried different doses if you take too much. Like now I'm horny and nauseous at the same time and that's not a good combination. I don't recommend that. But for people who are saying, I don't know about this stuff, that one has a lot of efficacy. And what are peptides really doing, though? It feels like sometimes they're signaling molecules, they're telling the body what to do. And of course you just mentioned, well, figure out what's your goal and you might want to pick one. Same with supplements, right?

Right.

You know, it's mitochondria versus inflammation versus cognitive enhancement. They're entirely different things. So you got to know how to do that. And then for a lot of us, there might be a replacement thing when it comes to things like thymic fragments. So how do you think about signaling versus replacement?

Yeah, it kind of depends on the peptide. Like you said, there's some that are actually endogenous to the human body. So BPC157, endogenous to human body. But if I have a torn shoulder and injected my shoulder, it's going to do the signaling in the shoulder to heal, help with inflammation, help with angiogenesis around the shoulder. So depends on the peptide. You could go as far as saying GLP1 peptides. Those are super long chains of peptides that, that depending on the dose can have massive good benefits or bad benefits for some people, depending on using it. So kind of comes down to the peptide. As you get more and more into peptides, like I said, some are endogenous and other ones have, like PT141 have been modified to achieve this certain effect. I say broad category wise, most of them are signaling molecules. But as we age, like you said, with thymus peptide, thymus peptides, thymus, alpha 1, thymolin, they're helping restore glandular function. You have a thymus gland after 30 that goes down drastically. So they're helping restore some of the function. So it's a good question. I think it kind of depends on the use case for someone and then bringing them back into balance. And then you talk about hormone therapy and everything that can kind of get them where they need to go to feel their best.

Well, to pick up off of that, too, though, as you know, because you mentioned at the very beginning, bioregulators are now coming into the mass consciousness. Right. We've had peptides for the last, I'd say, two or three years. And a lot of that, Dave, is because a lot of people are looking for alternative forms of healing from the. You know what. Right. Nobody wants to talk about that. But that's kind of how they boomed into mainstream consciousness. And now you have all the bioregulators.

You'Re talking about, like vaccine injury.

Yes, yes.

Some people call it long Covid, but they don't know what's going on.

It's kind of one big. Yeah. Thing that gets lumping together.

Oh, my God. Exactly. But I mean, the Cavenson bioregulators, which are from, you know, named. From Dr. Victor Cavinson, the former Russian bio. The father of bioregular research. They're amazing, as you know, because a lot of people are familiar with the peptides, again, the BBC's, the TBS and Thymus and Alphas and stuff of the world, but they're not familiar with the bioregulators. And we like the bioregulators in combination with the, you know, call them the injectable peptides because, as you know, they do restore a lot of natural function. Right.

So it's kind of like a supplement my. In my longevity book in Superhuman, which I think is 2018, 2016, something like that, I put a chapter on bioregulators because they're so powerful. And what's interesting, if you're listening to the show going bio, whatever's, these are peptides that come from young animals. And Russians are amazing biohackers. They just think differently than we do in the West. So porcine and bovine, Right. You can take them. And I've used them for years, and they work orally and I always kind of scratch my head because most of the western peptides, you have to inject them with very small needles. They don't hurt very much. Not like shooting testosterone. But why is it that bioregulator peptides work orally and we believe that these other peptides cannot have oral action.

Good.

So a lot of it comes down to the chain length sequence of the amino acids. The cool thing about bioregulators is typically depends on one, but typically they're two to four amino acids long, meaning that it's much more stable. Whereas you take like a GLP1 peptide, those can be over 50amino acids long. So they're very fragile, which is why with an injectable peptide you have to reconstitute it, refrigerate it, make sure it's not exposed to heat so that it doesn't denature. Whereas a bioregular is very short chain, meaning that you can actually go through the digestive tract without breaking down and defrag.

And they're designed to be tissue or organ specific. Right. So if you look at like typical Rockefeller petroleum distillate medications, when they break down, they leave a residue, as you know, that causes side effects and issues long term to where we get to, you know, the average person in their 60s today in the United States or say the west is on like 18 to 20 color coded medications, many of them to handle the side effects of those medications. Whereas bioregulators designed to, let's say, work for your thymic gland, your heart, you know, your kidney, your prostate and men libidon, they're tissue specific and they leave no toxic residue or side effects as they break down in the system because again they are organic signaling molecules. So they represent really what we like to say, a foundational change in medicine or healing, quantum healing. And that they're really addressing the fundamental root cause of whatever it is versus the other stuff where it's just kind of causing side effects and mandating your symptoms.

It is fair to say though, you can get side effects from peptides. These are very powerful.

I, I think injectable that you know, we could talk about what they are, but I've noticed I, I've never spoken to a single person who's been using bioregulators for more than four or five years who's ever told me that they actually had a noticeable side effect other than that might not have worked. Yeah.

Expectation bioregulators do not have side effects that I'm aware of. Yeah, there might be some, but there.

They say there's something. Yeah, yeah, but, but to talk to, to address that injectable peptides, the, the, the primary or the premier known side effects are like irritation at the site, injection, like you get like a red cellulitis or rash or bumpy thing some people get, as you know, from some peptides like cjc. You get a flushing, like a nice.

I turn bright red from. From that or even.

Yeah.

Must be Melanotan.

That causes nausea.

Yeah, Well, I don't. I'd get some nausea, but I also just turn bright red even if I'm not in the sun for a little while.

From melatonin 1.

Probably from 1. Yeah.

Yeah.

And. All right, let's talk about Melanotan. This is one of my favorites, and it also makes you horny. But I get a tan from it in just a short period of time. A tan is protective, which is good, but it's also a circadian molecule in a really important way that gets broken by bad light. Can you walk me through what melanotin 1 and 2 do and why people might want to use them?

So melanotin 1 is my favorite peptide. Like you. I wrote about that in my book, the Testosterone Optimization Therapy Bible, way back when. Also in 2017. Published in 2018. 2018. But it's a profound melanin cortoid receptor complex peptide. And as you know, it does a lot of things for the human body, including optimized mitochondria. I mean, it does so many things, like a separate podcast to go down the rabbit hole on that. But if you take a micro dose of it, we have found that it allows you to get into quote, unquote, stillness. Right. You can get deeper if you have a, you know, internal work or contemplative spiritual practice, meditative practice. So we love it for that. And again, you only need a microdose. And then, as already mentioned, it is establishing a gradient of your natural melanin. So whatever your natural melanin production is. And again, you and I are white bread, but it makes us darker. Yeah, right. Like, I've been using this since 2009. I tell people that I was. Before I started using melanin 10 1, I was white as can be. I mean, I'm from the Midwest and my skin is permanently, I would say a lighter, I mean, a darker shade of what I was. But I feel when I use a microdose of it. And again, microdose for me is a couple of shots a week, unless I'm in a tropical place where I'm getting a lot of sun and I want to do it in the morning. But I can get into a deeper, more still faster focus. In my contemplative practice, when I use melanitan versus not using it, I find.

It increases Mitochondrial function, which is foundational for entering altered states.

Which is interesting. Talking about signaling it up, regulates the melanin receptor, which my theory around this, I don't know if this has been written about in papers or anything, but it enhances the ability for your body to metabolize. Sunlight is an energy source, more or less. And so what it's doing to talk to the stillness aspect of it, who doesn't feel better when you're out at the beach getting sun? It's always easier to meditate when you're in the sun. And if you can take that and enhance the connection between sunlight and your body, that's going to help function. And obviously too, all the other immune boosting benefits, all of the other, like we talked about stillness, mental cognitive benefits are pretty amazing too. So it's almost like you're taking sunlight and then saying, okay, this peptide signals sunlight in my body to be able to be metabolized better. And then two, the benefit of that is it prevents you from burning, which is nice because Jay and I use it now in view of sunscreen. So a lot of times I can use that.

There's an awesome scientist by the name of Dr. Frank Barr who is like kind of one of the pre, preeminent researchers in melanin way back in the 60s and 70s, and somehow a lot of his information has been not on found on the Internet, but he did some very, very fabulous and deep research on what it does. And he used to say that melanin was like this fractalized energy conductor and that it enhanced the entire symphony of all the cells of the body.

It appears to be true. I think it was. In Superhuman, my longevity book, I talked about two studies out of Mexico where scientists had shown strangely, they were, I think, eye doctors. Like, what is going on with this ocular melanin? Because we have melanin not just in our skin, but in the back of our eye and in our brain. Or they call it jungle melanin. And it's not junk DNA.

DNA, yeah, exactly.

It's. It's actually a capacitor. It can make a burst of energy when you need it to. And, and if you're a nerd in, in the engineering side of things, capacitors store electricity to provide huge amounts of it in a short period of time. That's why it's in the brain.

Right.

So these guys showed you can take up to 10% of the electrons your body needs from sunshine y with all the pathways, but it requires melanin, which is why that you know, ghostly white color is a sign of health dysfunction. Sorry, Canadians. You know, you guys need UV lights. Seriously, if you want to be at your full power, it's required, I feel so.

Also just to add to the capacitor part of it. I feel that as you get deeper into the use of melanin. And we could talk about melanitan too. I don't really like it as much, but for melanoten1, I feel it enhances consciousness. I feel that it enhances your connection.

Anything that increases mitochondrial function increases connection.

Yes.

And I've. I've had the honor of both measuring brainwaves of gurus and of putting them on mitochondrial protocols. And they're always like, I got my powers back or my powers are stronger. And so it's just how it is for people that meditate. That's why my latest book is on meditation. Right. Actually, it's not a meditation. It's how to do things that work faster than meditation. Because I'm lazy, you know, and nothing wrong with saying I wanted to get more meditation in less time. At least I don't think so.

Right.

Okay. It can feel, I would say, daunting the first time you inject yourself.

Definitely.

Tell me about the first time you injected yourself.

I'm going to have to give you my needle phobia story. When I first injected therapeutic Testosterone back in 1999, I couldn't do it. I was literally sitting there holding onto the needle and eventually my ex wife shout out to Kelly, came up to me. She's like, what are you doing? And grabbed it on my head and just injected and it's done. I was like sweating, like, that's not so hard. Here's the truth about injection. Trick question. What is the phobia of injection? Do you know the name of the word? It's ridiculous.

I forgot the name. But one of my former employees had it really bad.

It's tyrannophobia.

Tyrannophobia. That's so good. Dinosaurs and needles.

Yeah, exactly. But the truth is, is that back in the day, injections, we did not have these solutions that the testosterone. And obviously now with aqueous peptides, where they could go through a very small gauge needle. So you had to use a bigger needle. Right. So you'd get scar tissue. People would have a fear of it. But now it's like brushing your teeth. You can inject therapeutic testosterone as you know, through a medical grade pen now. So I mean, like, everything has changed dramatically. So I guess a lot of the fear of injection that people have had, you know, traditionally over the last 15, 20 years really isn't really that much. But to your point, until you inject yourself a couple of times, you're going to have a fear. I've never met anyone who did not have a fear of injection. Protecting themselves.

Yeah, my first time actually was and luckily I found Jay. He's been my mentor to learn all the stuff about peptides. But I actually injected glutathione and, or anyone that's injected glutathione and at the time it's thick. Yeah, I was probably 25, I didn't know what I was doing. And I had a 23 gauge 1 inch needle and I pulled 1 milliliter of glutathione and just injected it right into my glute.

And you're like.

And it stung and it hurt so bad. And it hurt for like two days after. But after that I was like, well, that's not too bad. And so from there everything else got easier. So I started on the harder end. And at the time I didn't even know that I didn't need to do that big of a needle just to inject.

Have you ever injected urine? I'm calling that the Biolane protocol now.

I have not. I haven't heard of that.

I think he's some kind of micro influencer. But yeah, that's what I call urine injection now.

Yeah.

And I actually have injected my urine. I'm not sure why you're laughing. I never heard of this guy.

Oh, that's so good, man. That's awesome. That's really good.

So, okay, I'm going to keep a straight face here.

Let the record say that urine is not a peptide.

Yes, to my knowledge, no, urine is not a peptide. And I don't actually recommend most people inject it, but I had a medical doctor teach me how the protocol works. It's a, an unusual allergy mediating technique. But you have to inject 10 mls.

You got me crying.

You have to inject 10 mls of urine. And I'm bringing up just because that is a huge volume, right. And you're doing it because your urine contains antigens and if you put antigens into your own muscle, then your body makes antigens to your antigens and it cancels out. Sometimes life threatening allergies become less life threatening.

Right?

So people are like, I'm, you know, I'm triggered by urine. And you know, in my latest book, it's like if, if you can be triggered, someone can trigger you. It means you're carrying a loaded gun and their fingers on the trigger.

Right.

So one of my love languages is triggering people who are very angry all the time so they can learn to be less angry.

Yeah, it's awesome.

Yeah. So anyway, talk about urine therapy. If you can inject 10 mils in your glute. Okay. Similar to that. Ouch. But less allergies may be worth it. Guys, don't just do this like this is a doctor thing. So the first time I injected I was just doing B12 and the same thing you have the one inch needle. And you know there was not videos. This is a long time.

That's like a 22 gauge probably, right?

Yeah. And I'm sitting there and I'm looking at. I'll do it in my thigh because it didn't really have good anything back there. And I'm like, yeah, it took an hour.

Yeah. For sure.

Of almost like mentally, like it would go and then my body would stop.

Yeah, dude.

Because we have very deep seated that first F word in one. I teach that in fear around penetrating the skin barrier because that kills humans like throughout all of history. Like do not do that.

Right?

Yeah. Even once you go to my kids just melt down from a splinter. Like the meltdown comes because like for thousands of generations we've died from bacteria from that. So anyway, you're like, I'm going to overcome that. And you're shaking and you're sweating and then you do it and it doesn't even hurt. You're like, oh, you're right.

Yeah.

Right. Or maybe it hurts a little bit if it's glutathione.

Yeah.

Or pee. But it goes in like. Oh, okay, that wasn't so bad.

Yeah.

And so with injecting peptides though, it's a tiny little needle and you just take a pinch of skin and sometimes you don't even feel it. So I want people to understand you will be afraid the first time you inject something. And if it's a peptide, it's really not going to hurt.

No, it's not. I mean. And you know to that point it's a 31 or 32 gauge insulin needle. It's you know what 5, 16 of an inch lacer even smaller than that. And you're right. I mean you could literally just jab yourself whether you're fat or muscular and you're not even going to feel it. It's the pain of the psychological, the psychological capacity of like it's going to hurt me.

Like you said, it's totally. It's Totally true.

Yeah.

One of the things that I'm really appreciating is the stuff you're doing with biolongevity. And it's because there are now oral peptides. Not all of them are going to work orally, but you've put together formulas like shred and. Oh, right there. Biogut Pro. Oh, sweet. Actually, this came from my counter, didn't it?

Yes, it did. Maybe, maybe.

Got it. So BPC157 and that one we know works orally because it's a gastric healing peptide and I've given it to so many people or recommended it. So many people who have Crohn's or chronic IBS and things. And they heal. Right. I mean, you've talked about that as well. You have KPV and several other things in here that are actually really, really helpful, like ghk. But like, as you like collagen, I've kind of made that a billion dollar industry. GHK is copper tripeptide, which is present in collagen.

Yes.

Right. So you can take this. And they work because these are short chain. So this would be like your gut repair formula.

That is actually the strongest oral peptide based product right now as we make in this podcast in the world.

This is Bio Gut Pro and no needles required, which, which is the important thing. So you only want to take this if you are working on your gut.

Pretty much.

And then you might switch over to like biomind. Totally different than most of the stuff that's out there.

Like it is different than everything.

Yeah. Like we make something called Brain101, which is totally synergistic with this.

Yes.

Because that's nutrients and some adaptogens and some herbs. But you have J147, Dihexa and Nupeptic and that's in Biomind. Again, no needles required. What do people experience that's different from a normal nootropic formula when they take this?

I mean, it's pretty. I mean, I know you've used it. It's a. It's a whole different level. I mean, so J147 is like a stage two Alzheimer's drug right now that they're having incredible results from. I mean, when you take that and then obviously dihexa, as you know, is a very strong nootropic. And then New Pept is a racetam. When you take this peptide. We should all take it actually. Right? Yeah.

Here, have some. I actually didn't take any racetams this morning. New Pept is a very. A Very powerful one.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, and. And we're all fasting right now. So reality is all three of these. Excuse me, All. All three of these products. And if you take two capsules, this is one dosage, it just makes everything brighter. Yeah, there's no heart increase. There's no noradrenaline spike. There's no jitteriness. There's literally just everything becomes brighter. And I think, you know, you can add. It's like six to eight hours of very clean. Wow. Lights are brighter. I'm more focused. And I think most people that have used this so far. And by the way, as you know, this has only been in the marketplace for six weeks.

I get all the good stuff first. You can't have it longer than that. But, I mean, most people who use.

This will say that, wow, they've come back to us, whether it's at a conference or they, you know, just started using it and started messaging us. They're saying, like, this is something that I want to take every day, but we want to make sure that people aren't taking it every day because it's very powerful in its method of action.

Yeah. J147 is really interesting. Most people, if they're on the fringe, I've probably heard of Dihexa, New Path, probably use them. But J147 is actually a super extract of curcumin. And what it does, talking about mitochondrial activity, it actually drives mitochondrial activity in the brain. So everyone loves creatine for driving mitochondrial activity in the brain. J147 is like that, but it's even better and more potent than creatine is at doing it. So you pair that with the Dihexa and the new pep, it gives you this really profound sense of calm focus without raising your heart rate or without really impairing sleep function for most people that we've seen. Now, would I take it before I go to bed? No, but when you're playing the nootropic game, it's always the balance of like, okay, how do I get the bang for the buck without the downside? And what I like about that is it's enough to kind of help do that without making you feel too stimmied out.

I guess that's one of the problems in just the whole cognitive enhancement space. And it was actually my second big book was on cognitive enhancement because there really weren't a lot of modern books in this. There was, like, Steve, folks, one of my mentors, smart drugs and nutrients from, like, 1987. Or something and just shout out to Steve, who's been on the show and is a good friend. So we got to talk about this in the context of mitochondria, which you just did, which is great. So better mitochondria, better brain, and better everything else. I kind of have a mitochondria fetish, you might have noticed.

Not a good. It's a good, very good finish to have.

Of all the things. Yeah, for sure.

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Light goes up, must come down.

Yeah, like there's that, the caffeine analog thing. That stuff just gives me a headache every time I take it. Yeah, that's out there. Like, I prefer just natural caffeine and I don't know, maybe. Maybe I have a bias. That's on my list. So speaking of biceps, I was gonna say you're looking a little. I mean, we're looking at low body fat here. What's going on? Like, the peptides not working.

I guess I gotta come in better. Ready? Ready to go?

I'm totally.

No, it is, it is, it is fun. You know what, what's funny?

No, you're totally right, man. And guys, shaming people is a great way to motivate them. It's very high vibe. I recommend it.

High vibe.

Now if you can't laugh at yourself though, what can you?

No. You have veins on your biceps.

He's a big boy, actually.

Yeah, no, I, I, I, I can tell. I think you guys both probably can press more than I can right now. But I did inject peptides and stem cells and exosomes in both shoulders that had tears.

Nice.

So all of my shoulders are repaired now, so I'm in the process of building back up after.

I mean, you're looking.

You've seen the book cover. Like, I'm very happy with that.

Yeah, you look awesome down in your living room too. Looks great.

Because a 300 pounder, formerly, it's a big difference. Yeah, I Want to ask you this though. How lean is too lean?

Great question. Most guys, I mean, I think it's a great question because I think if we compare to like social media, you know, people are always playing the compare game to seeing, you know, fitness influencers or, you know, bodybuilders or performance athletes or whatever with like super low levels of body fat. We stress for our audience as a man or as a woman, there's two different levels.

Right.

And obviously women have internal body fat from, for maternal purposes that men don't carry. So like a woman is never going to be as lean as a man because of that internal body fat. But the best optimal levels for health. And let's remember, and this is important, statistically proven, you will live longer the leaner you are. Right. Because fat tissue is highly inflammatory, especially visceral fat. And it gets around the organs, it's going to shorten your lifespan. So the long, the leaner you are, statistically, the longer you'll live.

Well, there is a lower limit. The 1% body fat is high.

Risk of like ripping along, but obviously healthy from a healthy standpoint would be for men, it's somewhere between 12 to 15%. Is it healthy when you get down into the single digits, which, you know, we are. As long as you're doing a lot of, you know, very anal retentive, lots of cardio living, insulin controlled, using growth hormone agonist, peptides or human growth hormone or testosterone, I think a man can be somewhere, you know, year round between 8 and 12% and still maintain health. From a longevity standpoint, women, it's different. Women is somewhere between 14 and 20%.

And a lot of that is just based on boob size.

Yeah.

I mean, seriously, they're made out of fat. If you have D cups, you're. That's a major percentage of your body fat. And there's like. So just trying to do body fat on women, I think is dumb. Yeah, it's just visceral fat is all that matters. Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. Yeah.

And no one really talks about that with body fat percentage. Because if you're a man and you're 10 body fat versus 12 body fat, but you have more visceral fat, it's kind of what proportion.

Yeah.

Of that. And that's why women have so much of a wider range. Because a woman could be 17 body fat or 23 body fat, but you might see the one that's 23 body fat and they actually look like they're in better shape and probably have a better bone. That's true than the 1 to 1715 body fat. I think to, to add to Jay's point, especially in men, what I've noticed personally is when I get down too low, there's a hormonal component that can really skew to the negative. Meaning that as men, whether we're using testosterone therapy or we're just relying on our natural production, the leaner you are, the less you actually aromatize into estrogen. So less testosterone gets converted into estrogen, the leaner you are. And what I've noticed is that when I've gotten super super lean at different times of my life, there is less estrogen, which most people think estrogen is the devil, but for men, it actually drives a lot of our sex drive and a lot of our cognition. And the lower and lower you get as a man, most people don't struggle with this. The problem, society is kind of the other way. But most people, when they get super super lean, they're going to aromatize less of their testosterone into estrogen, which leads to lower libido. It leads to kind of this brain fog. And also too, like you were saying, the joint health. I've noticed when I've gotten to the super super lean, my elbows, my knees kind of feel much less like there's juice and kind of like a nice pump behind it when you're training.

So you just take a birth control pill on Sundays or what do you do?

You definitely could inject estrogen, bro. You could do that. You could inject estrogen. But do you actually inject estrogen?

Yes. I actually want to go down that rabbit hole.

I might, I might, I might be willing to try that.

It, it's actually pretty amazing.

I mean, you know. Okay, let's talk about that. Yeah, so sure. There's this thing of testosterone is the man's hormone.

Okay.

Women have four times more testosterone than they do estrogen because estrogen's really powerful. I use a topical estrogen on my face. Yeah, my face looks pretty good.

Yeah.

And there's a reason for that.

You're 83, right?

Yeah, that's my acute. But the thing that I'm dealing.

Father of biohacking thinking, bro.

What then? So I, My, my system, I, I use a 26, 000 medical grade stuff from upgrade labs that measures visceral fat and all that stuff. I have incredibly low visceral fat. Like low for none. Yeah, low for an 18 year old. My liver fat on scans, youngest liver. So that's all, that's all great. And no seed oils for 15 years. Because you have been an early voice about omega 6s, right. So I'm somewhere between 4.8 and 6% body fat, which changes with bioimpedance and all. But this is a clinical grade system. So that is competition grade lean.

Yeah. That's insane.

And it's probably not best for longevity. Right. And so I've actually been working on how the heck do I put on body fat? Which sounds crazy, but how do you.

Know it's not best for longevity? I mean like what markers are you measuring to really understand that?

Well, you, I mean there's all kinds of longevity things that they'll do. You look at methylation tests, true age, and you look at FeNO AIDS. Jay Bracken here, he's been in here. But you know, there's all, there's all kinds of different ways of measuring it.

Sure.

And mine are all pretty good. And they're going to range from whatever about an eight year range between the different ones.

Yeah.

So what I've learned from my elders in longevity starting even in the late 90s, like there's some ideal probably around 8, 8 to 12 for men, which is. Okay. You get in a car accident, you want some body fat.

Yeah.

You need some reserves. I don't have any. So I've been trying to put fat on as a guy who's my entire family's obese.

Yep.

Okay. I struggled for many years and I use peptides and I use all my longevity stuff and all that. And I am effortlessly lean. I can have 400 grams of carbs for six months every day with as much steak and butter. I do not put body fat on. Right.

What's going on with that? Because Mark wanted me to say, say hi to you, Mark Bell. You know he's on a sugar diet right now.

So I love Mark.

Shout out to Mark. Yeah, he wanted to say, he said what's up? He loves you. And he said you guys gotta mention the sugar diet. So anyway, I just plugged it in there. But okay. Yeah, I mean the truth is, is that once you dial your body and what you have from all the things that you do, and obviously all of us do a lot of things, the, the macronutrient content really doesn't matter. It's really balancing the protein between the carbs, between the fat. And that's where I think we're realizing now in human nutrition that you can eat any macronutrient loaded type of diet and maintain leanness and health. It's just a matter of combining things correctly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And. And it's. It. I would have said this is impossible.

Yeah.

To do that. Oh, I want to put on weight. I'll just eat a whole bunch of rice.

Right. And it.

It's not like that anymore. Once things are truly working.

Totally.

And I, I want to get back to estrogen. But let's talk a little bit about the sugar diet. Yeah. So it is abundantly clear that you can eat a zero fat high starch diet and lose weight.

Yep.

It's 100 proven. This is basically the Ornish diet. Yeah. Now the orange diet.

Yeah. Dean Orange gave.

It gave Steve Jobs pancreatic cancer.

Right.

I did a whole bunch of research to find out what diet he was actually on, and it was the orange diet. And I published it. And, and Dean came on and said, well, I told him to get, to get, to get surgery. He didn't listen. I'm like, yeah, you also gave him that cancer with a super high carb diet. So if you want to live on a high sugar, high starch, zero fat diet, that's a valid way to lose weight. Unfortunately, you're gonna have high blood glucose and you're gonna have high insulin levels. Insulin is aging and blood glucose is aging. So I don't think it's the right path, but shoot holes in that.

Well, so, no, I mean, I. That's what I say to market. The one thing you left off is what about carries in the mouth, but about teeth. Dental issues. Right. Because.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, so there's a lot of stuff here. And again, I think Mark, you know, we all love Mark. I just spent, I was just on his podcast two weeks ago and I spent a whole couple days with him up in Northern Cal. But I think that again, context is important and I think, you know, he's his. So his sugar diet is based on fruits, fructose, sucrose. Again, fast, readily absorbable, trouble keeping the starches or the thicker, higher glycemic carbohydrates, like at bay, where you only use it a small portion at night. So he has changed it a little bit where it's just pure starches and pure sugar combined. But I think it's. Again, it's context. What are you attempting to do for him right now? He's 49 and he's obviously very fit and very lean. He's attempting to put on a little bit of size and maintain his leanness. And so he succeeded experimenting with this. As you know, as I know, as, as Hunter knows, you can pick up on this is I Think as we get older, we have to remain metabolically flexible. It's totally relative to our energetic demand on what we do every day. A bodybuilder is going to require more carbohydrates than probably somebody who is an ultra endurance athlete who may be using a keto diet or a low carb diet or something like that in mix. But again, it's just remain how do we maintain metabolic flexibility? Also understanding that all of us are biochemically unique, some of us can handle carbohydrates more than others. You know, the guy Peter Diamo, you know, the blood type diet guy, you know, he always speculated that the closer you were ethnically to the equatorial plane, the more your body evolved evolutionary biologically to handle carbohydrates from, you know, what was bountiful and plentiful versus people like me and you, or all of us who are, you know, closer to, you know, Northern European ancestry and stuff like that, where we, we were hunters and gatherers and we didn't eat for once every 36 hours. So I think there is that understanding too that again, depending on your skin tone and how close you are from an ethnic standpoint to the equator, that you probably can handle more carbs if you're closer to the equator than people like us. That's my opinion.

Yeah. I think to, to Mark's point, most people to again, the bleeding neck problem is that they have too much body fat. And what happens a lot of times for those people is, okay, I got fat from eating high processed sugars and.

Lots of seed oil or low thyroid function or low testosterone or environmental toxins.

Exactly. It's a soup. And it creates someone. And you have someone that's 50, 100 pounds overweight. They say, I gotta do something. So they go online, they Google. Okay, well maybe it's the carnivore diet, maybe it's the keto diet. Carbs are bad.

Right.

So I'm gonna pull the carbs for the first 60 days. For the first 60 days that works because for the first time, a lot of these people are removing processed foods. Yes. They're removing the semaglutide. Yeah. Plus they're on a GLP1 which then slows gastric emptying even that much further than just a carnivore keto diet itself. But anyway, so you have someone, okay, 60 days, it works. And then all of a sudden what happens? The body is really smart. It brings into homeostasis. Okay, you're only going to give me 1600 calories of this macronutrient I'm going to adapt to that. Then what happens? Thyroid function or thyroid dysfunction? Thyroid stalls out, it stops working. And all of a sudden they're not metabolically flexible, they're metabolically inflexible. And they've basically pigeonholed themselves into this one thing, and they don't know what to do. And then you take someone like that, you say, okay, let's pull out all of these fats. Let's now give you some sugar. And what happens with thyroid? They have no energy. So when their thyroid slows down, they have no energy. So they don't want to exercise, they don't want to go go to the gym. You give them a little bit of sugar, you pull out the fats. All of a sudden now, hey, oh, the lights come on a little bit for this person, it starts to actually pick up their thyroid. Then they can go walk, they can go to the gym. All of a sudden, now they're actually burning the carbohydrates. They're not throwing seed oils on top of those carbohydrates, which again, is acting to blunt insulin at the cellular level to do what it needs to do to bring the blood sugar down. And all of a sudden, that person starts losing weight. And then there you go. So to the question of a person that's 4 to 6% body fat is the best thing. We can't really say probably at this point, but for someone, again, to get them down to where they can be metabolically flexible and use all those things like all of us do, I think it's a good thing. And I've just seen so many people that thousands of people we've coached and helped with peptides. They come to the world, peptides to use peptides to lose body fat, and they have no conception that their diet and lifestyle could have anything to do with it. And then all of a sudden they're like, well, I'm using this peptide and it's not working yet. They're eating 300 grams of fat with no carbs, and they have no conception of how the thyroid is doing or even the energy to get off the couch.

And we should definitely cover deeper. I know you probably will like GLPs and like, what's going wrong?

Well, we'll definitely get into that. And I've done several shows on those.

Awesome.

Back when the very first study came out on using them for weight loss, I had the lead researcher on the show. I kind of. I'm a futurist, right?

Yes.

I'm like, these are going to be really big. Yeah. So we talked about it and I said these are longevity drugs, right?

JLP100.

They just have to be dosed very, very differently. And microdose. Right. And I've used, I used one injection for that podcast and I haven't used any of any of them at all with the body comp I have now.

That's crazy.

Other than the last last couple months, I've experimented with micro, micro dosing. A third generation GLP.

GLP3.

GLP3. And you know, the thing is I, every time I do it, even at very, very low doses, I just feel like crap. Like I, I don't enjoy that. So for me, the things that make me live longer, I'd like to like my life while I live longer. And I'm not sure I'm going to keep doing that.

Why do you think that is? Which is. Or speculate why?

Yeah, well, the, the third stage one we're talking about tends to have a little bit more of that effect now. Everyone's going to be different.

You're.

You're on the ball with all that stuff.

Well, you're so lean too.

Yeah, yeah. And, and so that too, it could be one of those things that it's just almost. Your metabolism is already high, so it could even be driving it to the point of too high like a metabolic.

Fatigue for this disturb your sleep is.

What does it disturb your sleep? I haven't noticed that it distracts my sleep.

What I see in the general public a lot of times, because that is a very common thing, is especially with the third, the third prong, which is the glucagon, ramping metabolism. What happens a lot of times. And again, this happens with a lot of other peptides and even hormone therapy for a lot of people. All of a sudden you take someone, okay, my base metabolic rates maybe 1800 calories. Now all of a sudden it's 23 or 2100. That's so powerful to the body. The body is depleting electrolytes at such a rate and 80 of people are deficient in magnesium to begin with.

Oh yeah.

And then you introduce a very powerful metabolic modulator on top of that. All of a sudden you're burning through minerals like crazy now. So what I always tell people, whatever amount of magnesium and electrolytes you're taking, you probably need not enough. Yeah, you probably need three to four times that when using a glp. And then another thing too just. And I don't know if you experienced this does is some people Get a racing heart when they're taking these. And again, think about it, it's. It's helping raise metabolism, which is driving the nervous system. And when you're depleted electric, the electrolytes are not there to help the electrochemical signaling between cells. And if you introduce, and I know this is a higher dose, but 5 to 10 grams of taurine and people, I have heard hundreds, if not thousands of people report back to me. Oh my goodness, thank you so much. Now my heart is back to a normal level. And again, it's because they were depleted to begin with, but then they introduced this metabolic stimulation on top of it, and now all of a sudden they're fatigued. Same thing if you're fasting in the afternoon. Imagine dry fasting. You've ever dry fasted for 18 or 20 hours. By the afternoon you're dead again. Because you know, like, well, you just.

Have low blood volume too, so your brain has no oxygen.

I can't. I can't. Him and I played around with the repeat, you know, fasting protocols of dry fasting. And they're great, right?

Genius and half absolutely batshit crazy. So it's a little dangerous to go down that path.

I mean. Well, the truth is, if you're dry fasting, it should be for cancer. Wasting something where there's a need for it for people like us. Fasting is amazing for the autophagy, removing senescent cells, the hormetic effect. But in truth, obviously we need the electrolytes. You cannot fast without electrolytes and not expect to feel bad.

Although I did have. Oh geez. I had a guy on who's doing 40 day fasts with only water and no electrolytes. That's crazy. I think that's nuts.

No, that's not. He'll lose too much muscle.

No, this, this is actually a clinic down in Southern California. I'm trying to remember his name off the top of my head. It got 1300 episodes in even with all the smart drugs sometimes. Oh my God, who was that? Yeah, but. So there are people who can do stuff, but he has, you know, test twice a day and makes people stop. So you. The human body's capable of all sorts of weird stuff, no doubt. But I like your take on dry fasting. And the thing about electrolytes, there's a reason we used to pay soldiers in salt. They're just so critically important. And the first talk I ever gave on health publicly was on the need for more salt and why low salt diets create all sorts of metabolic Harm. So unlimited salt. I probably am at 8 grams, maybe 10 some days. And it's absolutely life changing. I've been that way for a long time.

Are you cooking most of your food with salt?

I cook my food with salt. I add salt to my water or electrolytes. And I take a lot of magnesium. I also take a lot of potassium. And anyone who wants to live a long time, there's a reason. There's all these sexy longevity peptides you guys make.

Yeah.

With subgrade labs in my company, I focus on vitamin D and Minerals 101. And I put trace minerals and electrolytes in danger coffee because those are the most foundational and there's all kinds of sexy stuff to layer on top. I don't have to make all the sexy stuff. I just find people were making good stuff and like, come on the show. Let's. Let's talk. But I love it. You're talking about foundationals, and without those, even testosterone doesn't work as well. Right, Exactly. So I want to get back to estrogen. And then I want to talk about some more of the interesting peptides that you guys have come out with orally. Every guy in my family has man boobs. And I was really ashamed of this when I was even a teenager. These my grandfather, when he was 70 something, he's like, you know, he goes, it sounds weird, but I just got tired of him hanging down. He's like, I'm just gonna put a bra on. I'm not joking.

Wow.

He's like, now they don't hurt anymore. Because, I mean, if you have the genetics for a man boobs, it sucks.

It's horrible.

And I've talked with, you know, a list celebrities who've had the surgery to get their glands taken out so they look good. I don't have man boobs anymore. It's amazing because of all this. And I control my estrogen levels and I use sometimes crisin, although not anymore.

I don't need it.

It I used to. Which is an herb that blocks it. And if I notice I'm getting them, I will take calcium D glucarate, which increases estrogen excretion and microplastics and a bunch of other stuff.

Right.

Wrote about that in a couple of my books. It's like, it's an important detox pathway. So yay. No man boobs. You guys just got a protocol for that. But when you are using testosterone, which I've been on since I was 26.

Yep.

With the exception of a couple years of Experimenting when I was doing the bulletproof diet. There's always a risk that it's gonna. It's a risk it's gonna go down. The comments I want to make. And the bullet pretend diet. Yeah. By the way. Yeah. You guys know I'm not with that company anymore. I will say though, that people lost millions of pounds on it. It kind of worked.

Yes.

But the man boob thing, dude, it being free of that was. Was surprisingly life changing. And I wouldn't have wanted to be on the COVID of my last book with my shirt off if I had, you know, a nice set of a cups, which was a meaningful part of my life.

Yeah.

So what do you recommend for people on testosterone from a peptide perspective from just Nutri Nutrients Pharmaceuticals. What's the man boob protocol?

So this is a great question and I'm glad you brought all that up because everything you're doing is right. And 95 of you people that talk about using therapeutic testosterone and trying to suppress estrogen or block it or do all that are all wrong, obviously from a biological standpoint, Dr. Anthony J. I think you know him, you know, shout out to Dr. Anthony J. So he came on and did a live stream with me back in 2017. Now, just for the record, I've had both of my breasts. I've had all the glandular tissue taken out.

You had a boob job?

Yep. 2016, I had it taken out with Dr. Joseph Cruz is like one of the world's leading gynosurgeons in Newport Beach, California. And then I had this breast in 2023 with my surgeon, who's an amazing guy in Playa del Carmen, Mexico. And both of them did incredible jobs. Like, if I took my shirt off right now, you can't even see the scar. But this is important why I'm saying this is that because you know this. A lot of people don't know this, that gyno is a genetic condition. It is. 62 to 63%, again, according to Dr. J, have this predisposition. They code for the gyno gene. No matter what you do, if you code for the gene, whether you take therapeutic testosterone or not, whether you use these stupid masking drugs that bodybuilders and performance athletes use, like SERMs and AIs. Yes, all of these. They're terrible. They're toxic. Women's breast cancer drugs should never use them. Yes, you can mask the presentation of gyno if you have the gene by using those drugs. But as you know, it's not solving it it's important that people know that the only procedure, unless you're a miracle like you and somehow you've done all the things you've done to your body, is to have it surgically removed. Which for most men is worth it because as you know, it's painful, it's unsightly, it's all these things. But to back to estrogen and testosterone and you can pick up on this is most men today who have been using therapeutic testosterone for a long time, literally. I'm not kidding you, Dave, have what we call either testosterone or estrogen resistance resistance syndrome. And that's for the exact reasons that you said. Our environment is an absolute toxin load, chemical assault of all these horrible things, endocrine stuck in chemicals, everything. And so now what's happening is men can't absorb testosterone or estrogen at the tissue level like they could 20 or 30 years ago when we didn't have all this toxic siege. So we are finding now and again this is super experimental stuff. A lot of people, people in the fitness, testosterone, just call it health optimization arena, are experimenting as men with very, very low micro doses of estrogen for sexual function, for brain function, health, for better bone mineral density, better skin. Hunter and I have been using 1 milligram of estrogen injected. And this is by the way, estradiol siponate.

I was going to ask which form?

Estradiol siponate. We've been injecting it with our testosterone, our TRT shots. It's a game changer.

Once a week.

No, you can take it like so if you're, I mean you could put it into your TRT shots. Let's say you're taking two or three shots a week for your trt. You could put it in the back of it, but I've been just injecting it by itself. Right. With a 31 gauge insulin needle. I'm not kidding you. He can back on this. It's a game changer.

One milligram once a week.

No, one milligram three times a week. Up to one milligram. Right. So you have to figure out your unique dosage. But, but better heart, better erections. I mean insane erections, better just well being. I mean it's instant, right. It hits in like 30 minutes.

So estradiol cypionate.

Estradiol cypionate. It's amazing for guys who have been on long term trt.

I'll play around with that.

Who've lost the cell. Yeah, we'll get you some of it.

So we came into this in a really roundabout way, because last year Jay and I started experimenting with bioidentical DHT injections in addition.

That's so fun. But your head is shaved. I just wanna say. But it looks like you have hair, so.

No. So I've had, I have genetic predisposition, it's androgenetic alopecia. But my hair started to thin way before I did any of this. This was when I was 44. I used to have massive like hair pushed up, but my mom's dad was bald. So like I know that I have the genetic prehistorician to it and I do grow my hair out. I still have it, but it's patchy. So I just. My wife likes it like this now. But, but getting back to dht.

Yeah. So we started playing around with, introducing a little bit of DHT in addition to, to our testosterone.

And that's so cool. I love this.

What's really, what's really cool about you are gonna love this is in the first few weeks you literally feel like.

A guy, dude, it's insane.

You get the, the neurostimulation, the sexual stimulation. But what happens is we were actually using DHT ananthate. So it's a longer acting form of DHT over time. What happens is it's so powerful, it actually suppresses estrogen. So you have this like, like four to eight week window where you feel amazing and then all of a sudden things start to go downhill. And then we got blood tests done and our estrogen was like crying out like, okay, DHT through the roof, estrogen cranked. It's good for a few weeks, not good long term. And so we just kind of went through like, okay, how could we play with this as a different ester maybe? Because if you have an antide ester, it's in the body longer and so it's not clearing as fast as maybe like appropriate.

Yeah, okay.

So we were like, okay, is it, is it 10 to 1 testosterone to DHT? We kind of landed. It was probably like 20 to 1 testosterone to DHT. Like the amount of testosterone you would have to DHT to where you wouldn't get estrogen suppressive effects. And then Jared and I, okay, well we're getting this estrogen suppressive effect. We know estrogen at the right levels is healthy for now because you have bottomed out estrogen, it's worse than high estrogen.

And to be really clear, estrogen improves cardiac function up to a level. So guys with lots of estrogen are probably going to end up, you know, wearing mini Skirts. Well, it changes your brain.

Remember, the fatter you are, the more you're aromata.

Which is why when I was really obese, my testosterone was lower than my mom.

Exactly. Correct.

Yeah, correct. And so we're like, okay, both Jay and I, pretty lean. Like, maybe we can play around with adding in estrogen to the mix and.

See a very small amount, see what it is.

And so we found some estralisibinate and started. Started playing with it. And we're like, okay. And I just started at 1 milligram total for the week, so I'd actually break that 1 milligram up into, like, 0.3.

Sure you want to be careful with this?

Exactly, yeah. And I was like, wow, this is. Actually has, like, a huge benefit. And I got my blood work done, and again, Jay and I. When. So I'll just say this. When I use TRT, at 200mg per week, my estrogen really is somewhere, like, in the low 20s. So it's not really. Exactly. Because I'm leaner. And again, my total testosterone, usually on that is somewhere around, like, 900 to 1,000. And then my free would typically be around, like, 35 on that dose. Now, when I introduced estrogen and then up to 3 milligrams per week brought my estrogen into the 40s. And what I noticed is sex drive was much, much better. Cognition was much, much better. How old are you? 32.

32.

Yeah.

So was your sex drive waning at 32?

It wasn't. But with the DHT suppressing estrogen, then I noticed, then it was like, okay. And again, testosterone by itself, it was fine. And also, too. I think men that have been on testosterone for a longer time probably notice.

I'm like, 25 years of it.

Yeah, exactly. It's not that you're. It's not. Your libido is low, but you know that you have the potential to probably operate at a little bit higher level based on where you've been before.

And obviously, too, there's a level when you're, like, 23. And. Yeah, like, I got to hit that. It.

Yeah.

Right. You know, and it's. It's very present, and now it's, like, switchable.

Right? Like, sure.

Like, okay. Like, let's. Let's go. Yeah, right. But it's not, like, a constant thing. And I. I am absolutely convinced that libido is an expression of chi, of life force, energy. You want to start a company and be horny all the time. Like, it works like that. You want to do Something good in the world. Like, don't. Don't deplete that.

Right.

So it seems important. And it's funny, this whole conversation is. Who would have thought? But men and women both have estrogen and testosterone, and they're both important. And that for guys, we only talk about T and we ignore estrogen. And for women, we talk about estrogen and we ignore T and it's dumb.

No. Well, let's talk about that, because that's one of the biggest topics that we talk about now is like, teaching the importance of. Teaching women the importance of perimenopause. Pre and post testosterone is more important to them. One of my mentors used to say to me that giving a woman hormones is like giving a dry plant water.

Oh, 100%. It changes their lives so much.

Everything. Everything. So, like all these women that listen to this podcast or listen to us who are with, unfortunately, doctors who are not giving them testosterone because you see a lot of them giving them progesterone and estradiol and not testosterone. And it's so insane, because a perimenopausal or postmenopausal woman, all they really honestly need. And again, we're all different. But is a good bolus of testosterone, because, as you know, it cleaves into the estrogen that they're not making anymore. So that's where most.

They probably need DHEA and pregnenolone as well.

All of those things. Yeah, of course, pregnenolone. And there's other things that we're not even talking about that. Again, depending on your biomarkers and what your labs indicate you could use. But we see too many women who don't get therapeutic testosterone, and that is a big mistake. Huge mistake.

If you're on hormones, you need to look at all of the hormones and the precursors, which are DHEA and pregnant alone, and then look at the different estrogens. Estrone, estradiol, and then testosterone. And I think men and women need to look at both of those.

Without a doubt.

And there are lots of genetic differences as well. Where for me, for the vast majority of my life, even just a small dose of dhea. Absolutely. Elimination of libido. Yeah, right.

Honestly, very truthfully, I've never in my entire life taken sdh. I've always had, when I tested, I always had like 60, 70, like mid range. And I've always been that guy. Like, if I don't have an actual corresponding indication that I'm low, why would I take it?

My levels were at zero.

Wow.

Like, literally no DHA on Lyme tests below detectable limits. Yet when I take it, I feel like crap up. Yeah, right. And like, what is going on?

The way we are.

Right. So different people are different ways. And with all the stuff I've done around longevity, I actually do take DHA now and it works just fine.

Yes. I have six, like an oral or.

Just a. I do oil suspended oral drops and I'm doing like maybe 20.

Same thing with pregnenolone.

I don't take pregnenolone. It gives me man boobs every time.

Wow. There you go.

So like, you gotta. You gotta figure it out. And for most people it's gonna be like, good God, that's really complex. And there's only like six hormones that matter. You can go to the AXO health app that said upgrade labs. Go to upgradelabs.com, there's a link to AXO on there. And we'll send someone to your house to get your labs drawn. Then you have the numbers and you can go to your doctor. Like, I got my numbers. And maybe you don't need to go to the doctor because you're fine. Or maybe you're saying, screw that noise, I'll just order what I want online because I want to save money. Exactly. And I think we have a right to do that, especially when it comes to things like peptides. Now let's talk about supporting hormones with peptides.

Yeah.

So what's going to support testosterone, estrogen, DHT function in adults? In men and women?

So there's some amazing. We'll talk about all of them. Right? So there's. And we don't have these peptides of biolongevity labs, but we do have the bioregulators. But there's a couple that should be mentioned and that is. Dude, my brain just melted. Gonadorelin, gonadorellin, and what's the other one? Kisspeptin, Kisspat, Peptin. Do we sell Kiss Peptin or.

No, I can't remember. I think we do have kids.

I think we do have Kisspeptin. Anyway, both of the. Here. So here's the thing. Here's the problem with these two. They're comparable to like HCG or hmg, right. As far as from an injectable standpoint. But all the research in them shows that you have to inject yourself two or three times a day to get the same impact that you would get with injecting HMG or HCG every other day during a week. Again, to maintain fertility. Fsh. HLH so I'm not too super on those, but the bioregulators, which, as you already mentioned.

Let me translate what you just said for. For listeners, for sure. Because I, I love that you're just ripping through it. So if you take testosterone for long periods of time and you're not controlling estrogen and doing some of the blocking strategies or some of these other things, you will get small balls because hormones called LH and FSH go down. They independently are more markers of longevity. You do not want to have them low and you'll be infertile if they go low. So the strategies for that are the old school breast cancer drugs like Arimidex and Clomid, which I took in my 20s because I was on testosterone. Thankfully, I was still fertile. But they come with a downside. Don't take those anymore.

Yes.

And then you can do hcg, which is a. What was it? A hormone or peptide that's made. Whatever. What is it?

It's a. It's a hormone.

It's a hormone. Yeah.

Human chorionic.

Thank you. It's a hormone and it's made in pregnancy. But taking micro doses of it for guys preserves testicular volume, keeps those things high. Yes. So it's relatively complex, but it's not crazy complex. It's just a small flowchart. And so HCG is one way to do that. Is that your preferred way to maintain testicular volume?

Combination of that with HMG if you want to make sure that you get pregnant. Because you need human menopausal gonotropin with HCG or human chorionic gonotropin. Just have that combination of both. FS and LH were stimulated enough that you get motor span.

Maybe I should try that. So I tried hcg. This has to be like nine, ten years ago.

Sure.

And I was under a doctor's care and I'm not going to name him because this is funny and he's a good friend. And I injected this and over the course of maybe 60 days of taking normal doses of HCG for testosterone, I grew boobs and a round ass. Yeah. My body thought I was pregnant. And it was the most horrible. Like, what is going on? I'm going to esophagus. Like, I've never seen this before. Stop. Right away. I'm like, yeah, I'm stopping. Like, what is going on? Thankfully, I, you know, those went away, but it was, it was bizarre.

I mean, they really are women's fertility medications.

So I, I'm like, I'm a little leery. Of hcg. But is that common?

It depends on the person expression. And kind of going back to the estrogen conversation, we all express these things differently. And so someone takes a little microdose of hcg, they might not even notice anything, but someone else can take it and they have what is typically like the high estrogen, what you were experiencing of the man boobs and everything else, it expresses a lot differently. So it really is a dose dependent thing. Now in that case, and this is where peptides are really cool, we can get into maybe a kisspeptin or gonadorello conversation. But also too, there's bioregulators now that have.

I've used your Russian bioregulator, there's testalutin. And I noticed a difference in libido from that stuff, 100%.

And Libidon, which is the positive.

In fact, I'm out right now. But you want to cycle it anyway? Yeah, yeah.

Where's the stash? But what's interesting about testolutein is in men that were not on testosterone therapy in the Russian literature, on average, I think they had a pretty big patient population. It increased. The average mean testosterone, I think was around 320 total to around 550.

So this is just two pills a day.

Exactly.

After 30 days, that after three days. And these are the Russian bioregulators. And you could stack those with injecting testosterone and you can stack them even with oral testosterone.

That's what we actually like. And then make sure you mention testigen too.

Well, yeah, there's an injectable form of testolution.

Oh, I gotta get that.

Yeah, you guys saw that coming soon.

Coming soon.

Yeah, but you had like two SKUs a week.

Jesus.

It feels like that.

Okay, well, I appreciate that it's available, so thank you.

But to the LH and FSH conversation, which testalutin and testogen would do again for guys not on testosterone is going to help bump those up. And you see that in the data there.

Let me just be really straightforward. If you are a male and you are alive, you probably should be doing this because all men are low t right now. So just. There we go. And what's it? Testolutin.

Yes. Testalutin is the oral version. And then testigen would be the injectable form of testalutin. But like you said, if you're a man walking the planet right now, whether you're 17 or 77, you can benefit from that again because of the environmental elude and replica.

Okay, we Gotta. I gotta throw something in here. Biolongevitylabs.com as you might expect. Use code Dave and you can order that stuff. It's a good idea. And you probably also need testosterone, to be clear, but you might as well start with that stuff. It's literally two pills a day and it's easy.

I like what you just said though, because this is kind of our new thing that we're attempting to do, and it sounds like you'll be with us, is taking testogen and testolution along with therapeutic testosterone and seeing how much more it optimizes your endocrine system. Because again, all the Russian research and studies show that it's optimizing what you naturally already are producing. So you're on therapeutic testosterone and as you know, you're shut down exogenously or from the exogenous administration. Why not take something that's going to actually increase your natural production too, so you can have the best of both worlds. I think that's.

Well, what I have seen is that testalutin and testigen do what HCG is intended to do from a pharmaceutical perspective without the effects that you had. So they do it better.

Interesting.

So that's what I've seen again in practice. I don't know, blood marker speaking, but if you look at LH and fsh, you get the bumps that HCG and HMG intended to do from that. But again, we're doing it with an amino acid sequence that is just stimulating the pituitary.

I hate cycling stuff because it just takes a lot of organization.

Yeah.

And I'll show you guys my supplement room. At this point, it's a wall this big, just covered in supplements. And I do 150 a day and I don't have a problem with that. Most expense be on the planet, maybe more expensive than yours. And I'm. I'm super happy with that. In fact, some people like to use my urine in their Biolane protocol. And like, I, I respect that. You know, if they're into that, I'm not gonna.

Is there a discount code for that?

I. I don't know what's so funny. I. Clearly this guy's got an obsession with my urine and now I'm respecting his identity and all that stuff like that. That's all good.

Oh.

I do want to ask though, like, there are some people who get into like the extreme low carb or extreme vegan or like an angry PhD who just yells at people all the time online. What do you think is the, the hormone or Nutrient imbalance that makes them that angry. Or is it just childhood trauma?

Childhood trauma.

You think so? I think so too.

Childhood trauma. I think, I think a lot of people too, myself included. If you are in the health space or the fitness space, there's a sense of body dysmorphia and we may. It's probably a spectrum.

Oh for sure.

That we have it. And to go back to the childhood trauma. And Jay and I talk about this a lot in our coaching groups of really getting comfortable and none of us are. I'm not even saying like I'm there because this is a journey in life, but really getting comfortable in and loving who you are.

Right.

And I think people cure for that. Yeah. And people that attack people online because we all, we all see it and if you put yourself out there, you're. You're gonna have it. Is saying that like what I put out into the world is meant to help people.

Right.

Rather than pull people down. And it's, it's fun to joke and stuff, but I think people that make their, their stick about that. Again, I understand that it gets views and everyone's trying to make a living but. But it really probably comes from a place to like when they look in the mirror and say like who's Dave? Who is Hunter? Who is Jay? Do you like what you seek? And that's not anything that a pep can really fix.

I think it's mostly bullying. They're bullied and they got stuck in that trauma and they grow up and yeah, like it's unnecessary. Like there are things where we probably disagree. Right. And. And that means you're a bad person and I should misstate your argument, make it simple and then like. Or we could just be adults, be like. That's interesting. You know, maybe I don't want to inject estrogen, but I don't think you're a bad person because you tried it. Right. And that level of maturity, I know some of it is biological. Sure.

Right.

If, if your brain is trash, your thyroid is low, if your T is too high and imbalanced, that can increase anger. But you're not going to get roid rage. That's made up nonsense from synthetic 70s stuff. So having a balanced metabolism and working mitochondria equals better emotional regulation. So you can do, do the work. And that's my latest book is all about that stuff. But I do want to know. Okay, so let's say that you know, someone who has a bit of an anger issue, you know, can't handle criticism, criticize Other people all the time. And there's a lot of people with this going on, not just in the. The online health space. What is the peptide stack to chill.

The outan one for sure.

Okay.

Funny enough, Melanitan one actually does help with that.

I could see that. Yeah.

Again, of everything that we were talking.

About 431 and you guys sell that. But it has to be injected, right? It's not oral yet.

Yeah, yeah. I don't think you.

Someone can make that an oral. You'd be a trillionaire.

Yeah, I don't think that because of the way that works, crosses the blood brain barrier. I don't think you can make that oral. But we do have to get to the strip technology that's coming. So that. So that's the really good news, Dave, is that right now we're in as, you know, the golden age of all of these amazing like biotech, biochemical ingredients and technologies and stuff like that. But we're working with a company which we can't really name right now, who has an incredible patented form of oral buccal strips of peptides. Right now she has seven. Correct.

Sweet.

And. And she's wanting. And not wanting is desiring. And well, she said she's very soon to make it happen. GLP is an oral. So imagine that will do. Right. And her claim is. And again, we have not used these yet. Right. Now she's going to of course be here this week, so you will meet her. But she says that there are 60. Somewhere between 60 and 60. 65. As efficacious as an injectable. And she says all the injectables, Nothing is over 89. So that's not bad.

That. And look, I don't. If something's only half as good orally, take twice as much. Nothing's pretty easy for that. Right, right, exactly, exactly.

So that's coming. But what else would you say? SS31C Max and Solank.

Yeah, yeah. Now some people respond better to it. We actually have. So I've played a go around a lot with those. There's regular C max and regular slink and there's actually what's called an in acetyl amidate version.

Right, yes, I've used that.

Yeah. And those. In my experience, personally, I respond nasal.

Spray or injectable or either one.

You could do nasal spray or injected. I prefer the injection. But some people like the nasal spray.

Some people don't put things up their nose, bro.

Yeah, yeah, I, I don't have a problem with that. Hop a Is my friend.

Yeah, but to Jay's point, SS31, anything where we improve mitochondrial health, I think it just kind of helps clear a lot of the nasty gunk.

A lot of the trauma sits in mitochondrial networks.

Yes, it does.

And the whole framework for trauma resolution that I use at 40 years of Zen is that it's very low down. It's actually a pre processing of reality that makes you feel angry. So if someone disagrees with you, you get a huge wave of emotion from your body.

Right.

You know, there was that time, you know, the bully in fifth grade or my daddy or whatever disagreed with me and I felt unsafe. So now somebody, excuse me, I feel unsafe, so I lash out. And you're like, if you have, you know, a following on social, you have a moral obligation to chill out and bring good stuff into the world. And I don't care who builds followers. They're not the followers you want.

No, exactly.

Yeah.

Well, what do you think of. Because you asked us about that. What do you think of SS31? It's one of my favorite peptides now. It's like an ample amplifier.

Peptide SS31 is really interesting and I've probably used three vials of it, but it feels mitochondrial and. Which is a weird thing to say, but once, you know, because I had chronic fatigue syndrome, once, you know, the feeling of having really low mitochondrial function, it's nasty. And then the brightening effect, that happens when your mitochondria turn back on, it definitely does that. And I find it makes meditation also work better.

I think so too. Well, I mean, to that point, though. And again, you can speak firsthand. And by the way, obesity runs in my family too. My mom died two years ago. She was morbidly obese. She died. Of course. The hospital diagnosis was Covid. She was obviously comorbid and metabolically deranged. But here's the thing. People who are obese and insulin resistant, they don't have mitochondria functioning. They don't even know what it's like to have.

They've never felt as good as they can feel. Exactly, exactly. It's funny, the. The tagline for. For danger coffee. Who knows what you might do, right? It's like. Like you have no idea what's in there. I didn't. I. I thought everyone felt like I did.

Their default state is suffering.

Yeah, it's totally true. And I. I really believe that biohacking can get people out of.

I agree.

Biological suffering.

Yes.

So that you have enough energy to work on all of the trauma Suffering that you also have to wear.

If you think about it too, it's like a lower, low energy state. Everyone that's familiar with David Hawkins map of consciousness, if you actually map that out to what that looks like, low energy, fear, anxiousness, anxiety, depression, all those mitochondrial behaviors. Yeah. Think how hard it is to roll the rock up the hill to overcome that. If your mitochondria are firing on, if you have low testosterone, you have some of the brain fog and all these things. Not impossible, but how much easier is it to do? And then the results are.

That's why a heavy person, man or woman, if they really do want to change their life. A mitochondrial optimizing peptide like Motsi SS31, a five amino, by the way, injectable five amino. Have you tried that yet? That's pretty amazing.

I've only taken orally.

Oh, no, Injectable.

Oh, interesting. Okay, Cool stuff.

Really powerful stuff. In fact, we'll tell them and then NAD So we're making a custom blend. We can say that here, right, dude, nad MOT C and five amino. Injectable in one blend. He's experimenting with it. IT dude. It will be the ultimate inflamed person's peptide because it will fire on their mitochondrial. They will have energy to train. They will have energy to change their life, to turn it around, start eating better and make healthy choices. But that will be a super rock star peptide blend.

I cannot wait to try it. I gotta ask you this. So Elizabeth Urth is a. Is a friend.

Good friend.

Yeah. And just a really great longevity doctor.

Yeah, amazing.

And she'll tell you straight up, like, don't mix peptides. Inject them all separately in separate syringes. And I just don't like throwing away that much plastic and I kind of like to mix them. So what's your take on the pros and cons of doing multiple peptides in a single syringe?

So there are. There are what are known as cross chain linking reactions. Right. For certain peptides. So yes, she's kind of. Right, kind of not. And what I mean by that is like what we just created. If you're used, if you're just targeting one system, the mitochondria, and you're going to use a bunch of mitochondrial optimizing peptides again, like an NAD plus like a SS31, a MOT C or what's the other one? Injectable five amino. That's not going to cause an issue like injecting a GLP1 with a growth hormone agonist. Peptide and throwing in a mitochondrial optimizing peptide. You shouldn't do that. So that's where she's right. But if you're just starting one organ system or just targeting the mitochondria or just targeting growth hormone at mechanism, then it's okay to mix like a TESSA and IPA or a CJC and a TESSA or cjc.

So some are mixable that it makes.

Sense, but you shouldn't. She's right. 100 in that a lot of people get excited because they see all these things and they're like, oh my God, I'm gonna. We haven't talked about medical grade pens. We should talk about that. That's the new kind of avenue that people are pursuing in peptides. But you shouldn't take seven peptides that are all different, you know, technologies, allergies, or different biological system targeting and throw them all in one pen. That doesn't make any sense at all. Always solve for what is your biggest issue and then go around that you can you take. But you know, people will always say to me, Jay, but what about healing and fat loss? If, you know, if I'm targeting fat loss, I have 40 pounds to lose in my belly, but I injured my knee in training. Can I not take BPC TB500 along with my fat loss peptides? You can.

Just not in the same needle though.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Okay. Exactly.

Well, I think too, it's one of those things like theory versus practice. In theory you shouldn't do it because if you look at, like Jay said, the cross chain reaction of them, but in practice, what I have noticed is I kind of like to think about it in building a framework is pathways. So if I'm addressing, like Jay was saying, an organ system or a pathway, typically you're going to be okay because again, they're delivering what they need to to that thing. And also too, from a practical standpoint, what I've noticed, because I've experimented a lot is say I've got three different peptide vials and I go around and I pull a syringe and I pull all of them into one. If you notice that it gets really.

Cloudy, then you're going to cross reaction.

Exactly. Then it's like, okay, don't inject that. Because that's probably something now to say. If you put all three in and it doesn't get cloudy, does that mean it still works? It's hard to say again because there's.

Permutations, but there's a rate of reaction of cross linking. So you mix them and inject them right away, you're probably fine. That was kind of what zam. And if you see a reaction, it was a fast reaction. And you could probably ask one of the AI systems how fast the cause thinking reaction is, and it'll tell you, grok. There's that.

Can you hook this up?

Well, I think I was just reading the other day that in diagnostic tests, I think using AI now versus a doctor's recommendation, that is now far past.

A doctor actually diagnosing something, that's something that we're. That we're doing with axo. It's. It's like you got to get your numbers, and it's got to be cheap and frictionless, and you don't need a permission slip to do it. And then if you want to diagnose yourself or have a doctor diagnose, you can. But having the data is totally fine. And then deciding to modify your lab test values based on your goals is also something that you don't need a doctor to do unless you want pharmaceuticals. So this is like a fundamental human freedom thing. So I want to know, what biohacker favorite compound would you never use and why?

Good question.

Never like a device or just a.

Supplement, A compound supplement or a peptide or something. You're like, that's. That's crazy.

Melanotin for. It's got to be melanotend, too.

Yeah. I just have never had good experiences with.

Relative to Melitame1 the only person that should use. And I know you probably have had experience with.

You guys actually sell melanoto, don't you?

No, we don't.

Just one?

No, no. We just only sell one. And the reason that is, is that. So melanin 10 2, as you know. And like, when. When peptides first started making the rounds, whatever, that company in Australia that has the patent for it, and then they sent it to the people at Arizona state, and Melanin 102 started making the rounds. I think it was in, like, 07 or.

Yeah, a long time ago.

Yeah, people loved it because it was literally the tanning peptide. You injected it, and all of a sudden you turned a bright orange. You know, people that were darker complected became black. I mean, I've seen people like, it's insane, right?

And a friend from North India, he's like, I. I just ran one. One vial of it, and I went five shades darker. And my family's like, don't come home until you're lighter. He's a Silicon Valley friend. He's like, oh, my family and you know, and so yeah, if you have natural melanin levels, you will get really dark really fast.

Well, so it also has this weird ability to darken and enhance mole formation. Right? So like you can actually get like a mole that's not really there all of a sudden become pronounced. And I know a lot of people that have had to. And then the other thing, the other thing that's horrible about it, and you already mentioned it, is that if you're prone to the nausea effect, my God, you can have gut. I mean like literally, what do you call that, where you're having like convulsions, I mean dry heaves where it's the worst thing. So I, most people, I say stay away from that. The exception would be if you're a competitive physique athlete, bodybuilder, bikini athlete, and you don't have a tan and it's like one week out, you can use a microdose over like three days. And there's a protocol in some of my older books on how to use it, but you have to be very cautious with it.

Melan 10:1 will darken you.

Yeah, that's all you really, really need.

But you have to go in the sun right away after you inject it.

And melanitan too is, as you know, ubiquitous. You can find it at any of the research, chemical, grow companies and it's very cheap. Whereas melanitan 1, melanin 101 is actually now called bramminetide and it's an FDA approved medication. So it's much more expensive usually to find that if you can find it. So it's like, you know, Melnatan 2 is cheap, cost effective. Just be very cautious with that. But I stay away from that.

There's another peptide too that I just thought of when he was talking about that. This sold a lot. And I personally found I wouldn't mess around with it based on what I've read. I don't know in practice how it works because no one talks about it. It's called adipotide.

Oh yeah.

And it is actually peptide. Yeah. So what it's supposed to do is you can spot injected to kill fat cells. So it's actually comes from adipotide, killing adipose tissue.

Okay.

So it is supposed to go in and cause apoptosis of fat cells. Now what's bad about that? In theory that sounds good, right? I inject it into my belly fat, it kills fat cells, fat cells go away. But it seems to in literature also maybe cause it to healthy cells too. So what could do? Like, you know, so if you're injected to kill the bad fat cells and it's also killing the good fat cells, that might not be the best thing long term. But I've heard of people using it like injecting into their love hills and stuff. And it'd say it will nuke the fat, but long term, that would just be one. Based on the mechanisms that I've read that I would say, okay, most all peptides are relatively safe. Again, they're sickling molecules. But if that's something that you're inducing into your cell, could be like, eh, I don't know. I want to play in that same.

By the way, the peptide that works for injecting into love handles over time. It does take time. And obviously insulin control, living and fasting and all the things that we were already talking about on this podcast is Tessamorelin.

There's definitely an effect you can inject that. Interesting.

Yes. And again, because as you know, it's another grift. It's called a grifta. It's an FDA approved drug for people with HIV and in their situation they have a disease called lipodystrophy, which is like super hard. This actual fat.

Well, it's an FDA approved drug.

It is, it's called a grid.

Doesn't that mean that it has a lot of side effects and it's probably bad for you? Why are we seeking approval from those people? Remind me again.

Well, it's interesting. I don't know if anyone's looked up the list of all of the, the guidance around peptides that came out.

Wasn't Belidomide FDA approved? I'm kidding. It wasn't.

But I mean, no, it's, it's crazy because like if you, if you're a man and you do have visceral fat and you, you know, you were like you at one time and you weighed 300 pounds and you just have those areas that are plant. Inject into that area. Because we know a lot of people that have done that and they're like, dude, it's gotten rid of it.

Wow. Yeah, there's also. Is it mesotherapy?

Sure.

Yeah. We inject a bunch of adrenaline like compounds into that. That's pretty painful.

Firefight hormones in your stubborn fat.

I did, I did that many, many years ago with the inventor of it in New York. Just one circle of it.

Too much pain.

I don't know if I noticed a difference from it, but man, I was like shaking the whole time. It was not pleasant. So that's not maybe the way I would recommend doing it. Unless, you know, if you have a doctor and you try it and it doesn't make you tweak. I have weird adrenal hormones.

What are your thoughts? Because we haven't mentioned it, but what are your thoughts on the EM sculpt neo. So the, you know, the, the RF energy and then the induction, the Tesla injection turn. Have you used it? I'm sure you have.

No.

Are you familiar with it?

I'm familiar with it, yeah. I mean it's weird because there's some straight just electrical current stuff. That's good, right? So I, I've been using electromuscular stimulation for 15 plus years, like the clinical grade stuff. And it, yeah, it, it's very powerful. So doing it at high frequency can be really good. Getting rid of fat is a good thing when you have too much of it. Right. So sometimes, well, you're causing damage, but you short term damage for long term benefit and short term damage heals. So there could be some benefits to it, but feels like there's better ways to go about it.

So my wife and I, you know, this full disclosure, we used it in 2022 from how'd it work? June until November. It was amazing. I mean I was like, I mean I'm very lean and have a six pack all the time, but like it shredded like my veins like through here were insane. I'll tell you why it was bad though. My deep tissue lady who also does cranial sacral and gets deep into it, she was like, what are you, the.

First month fascia is going.

She was like, what in the hell is going on to your body? So you were shocking that fascial network. So it's like you what we got to the point or the theory was you couldn't do 100% induction. You had to do 75 to 80. So you won't completely throw off your body's bioelectrical network, but at the same time you'll get some of the benefits of the rf.

I could see that, Yeah. I think you could also just run straight electrical current to stimulate the muscles and just burn fat. All these other mechanisms we talk about.

Well, you're the guy to ask like, why has somebody not developed it? Emsculpt charges now $450,000 for that device. And then every time you and I go on Alibaba or ebay, we see the Koreans with these, you know, devices that nobody knows who they are. And it's like, you know, they sell them for what 7,000 or 10,000? It's like, it's just the same thing, you know. And they have like es, sculpt nano or they're using names, they're almost the same. But you would think that somebody would create like a laser for in home under ten thousand dollar device that they could use for people like us who are already lean. We're not talking about dumpster fires who just need like regional targeted body fat removal. Why is that not how come out yet? Why have you not invented that yet, bro? Come on, give me. Come on, dude.

I mean I've had a light therapy company in flight light for a long time.

Yeah, I know.

Although I recently, recently spun that out. I'm just, I'm thinking about it.

They talk about green light, right?

Yeah.

Green laser. Yeah.

Green has some effects. And you know 528 Innovations is here. And you can increase mitochondrial function with lasers.

Yeah.

I've never seen spot reduction with a laser without massive tissue damage.

Yeah.

You also have things like coolsculpt which work. Oh no, it works, but it's bad. It's really bad. Yeah, Max. Excessive damage to your fascial layers and all, but it will get rid of fat and it's a bruise.

This is an interesting conversation around peptides that I just thought as we were talking about this. Jay and I do not know of any peptides that will remove excess loose skin. Yeah, there are great peptides if you've lost. People are confused about that, but that's one of the most common questions we get.

They think GHK does.

Whether GHK is going to help you lose 100%.

I have a unique perspective on this. I have about half of a large bath towel worth of extra skin from when I was obese. And there's equations to figure that stuff out.

Yeah.

And the only thing today that that does that is you cut it off.

Yeah, of course.

Right. Some people will say dry fasting. I've not seen results from that.

No.

And here's the thing. They go. Well, that means that, you know, longevity doesn't work, but. Okay. Do you cut your fingernails?

Yes.

I pick them every now.

Okay. They grow over time and then you cut them off. If you're going to live to 180 or longer, your skin will do what skin does because of gravity and that's normal. So you have two choices. You can leave the extra skin on or you can trim it the same way you do your toenails. So I took off the obese skin on my face. It was 28 square inches. I could grab a fistful of skin on either side of my face. And I posted a picture doing that, which is basically some aging and some obesity. And so I took it off and I worked with the local guy here. Dr. Rob Whitfield has been on the show.

Sure.

And probably the. This is expensive. But the most intriguing thing there was, he has something called a no cut facelift. And they take the equivalent of a tattoo needle, but in reverse, and they suck out tiny little micro cores of skin. So I had about, I think 8 or 12 square inches on my low back. So I had like folds.

Yeah, yeah.

And like. So those are gone. Yeah. But I have a lot of extra skin on my legs. Like, you can just grab a, you know, a handful of skin and like, I don't really want that much surgery, so I'm probably just going to leave that.

Yeah.

But I was really happy. Like, look, my dimples are back.

Yeah. That's awesome.

Because if you've formally been obese and you go down to under 10 body fat, your extra skin will be a thing.

Yep.

And we may, we may develop some kind of funky technology in the future. I don't think so. Like, the body isn't good at tightening things like that. I mean, we can make things stronger and thicker, like ligaments and tendons and bones. So you can have thicker skin that doesn't sag as much, but it will grow over time, just like your toenails do. Right. And like, so you gotta do something about it. We probably weren't meant to live that long, and I don't really care. I'm going to.

Right, right. That's a good point. Yeah. I mean, we all, we have that conversation all the time. Like, you're probably. You have like, the vitality and the. Just the elasticity in the skin is only a certain level, you know, and you probably have what, 20 to 30 pounds over what you're natural before your body expands to a point where surgery is the only option. Yeah.

The goal is to get there because you're going to live a lot longer if you're that lean.

Right.

And one of the things that you guys put out there that's really cool is this shred product, which is Slupp332. Talk about this peptide and what it does.

So I'll talk about the mechanisms real quick and then we can talk about all the. The cool stuff. So it is an estrogen like, like receptor agonist. So. Does not agonize estrogen. Is an estrogen, like, receptor Agonist. And when you agonize that receptor, it actually drives mitochondrial function. So it improves mitochondrial health. We were talking about estrogen earlier. Estrogen, very important to mitochondrial health. It's an estrogen like receptor agonist. So it's actually been looked at for as more of an exercise memetic. So it basically, like, induces a state of exercise within the body and drives mitochondrial function. So Jay and I started playing around with that, I guess August. Yeah, almost a year ago last year. And the first time we took it, we. We were actually together filming a course and we went to the gym and we trained. We're like, man, we feel like beast day. And we got on the bike and we just kept going and going and going and going.

I really like it. It's just. It's an energy thing.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it helps you burn fat as well.

Yes.

Geez. So weird.

Yeah.

We can burn fat.

Who would have thought, right?

Yeah. Did you notice that the first time you took it, like, literally, like within the first couple hours after taking it, you felt like you sweat more? Higher energy production or what?

I was a little sweatier.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I typically am not a sweaty person that's not in a sauna.

I'm not gonna sweat. Yeah, yeah. But drives mitochondrial function. And the process of doing so, obviously is gonna upregulate everything in the body. The. The thing with this one is dosing is very important. And so, funny enough, sometimes leaner people can take higher doses of things because our bodies work better. This one's a little bit of the inverse. So typically, the more optimized and healthier from a mitochondrial standpoint, someone is, the lower the dose they need versus someone that is severely mitochondrially dysfunctional and inflamed and impaired. They're actually going to need a higher dose. So Jay and I played a lot with the dosing of starting. I think the first dose we took was 100 micrograms. And then we went 2 milligrams. Yeah. To 2 milligrams. We got 20 times more daily. And what we noticed is you feel good for a short term, and then over time, when you're stimulating and pushing mitochondrial hard, you get into this, what's called mitochondrial overspends them. And what's happening is you're throwing off so much ATP that there's actually ROs that build up in the body. And so you have these oxidative byproducts that come from driving so much mitochondrial activity. And so you kind of, if you're doing a higher dose For a long time, you kind of get metabolically fatigued because you build up this ros in the body from driving that so much. So for us, the dosing sweet spot just with the SLU by itself is somewhere like 400 to 600 micrograms daily. But for someone that's really obese and has. Has no energy, they might need to go higher to like 1500. Yeah, 100, 000 or 1500. But no, it works amazing to help drive exercise performance. And Jan always like to talk, you know, in the underground world. The Paris 2024 Olympics. That right there. Yeah, both of them. Well, so the ingredient slu, what was driving. And I know that there's multiple records that have been broken and track and field and stuff for people that were okay on it. So.

Wait till the Enhancement Games comes out.

Yeah, yeah.

I did a whole episode with Aaron on that. I'm an advisor to them now.

It's all crap. That's gonna be amazing.

I can't wait.

When is it? Next year?

I think so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone will pay for that. It's like watching baseball in 2008-2015.

Yeah, exactly. You have Shred X too, which is really interesting because you have the SLU in it and you have two other ingredients. Tell me about those.

So the other ingredients are a peptide is actually called AOD9604, which is actually. It's pretty cool. If you took the growth hormone sequence and you extracted the fat burning part of it, that's what the peptide AOD 9604 is now, in principle. Is it going to just melt fat off the body? No. But what it does is it helps drive fat loss through exercise. And so we have the liposomal form of that in there. Obviously, the injected would be better. Better if you're using it. But to pair it with slu, it helps drive the fat loss from performance. And then the other one people probably heard of, there's a little bit of debate on it online. It's called Carterine. The chemical name is GW 50151.

It's one of my absolute favorites.

Amazing.

And I.

It doesn't kill you at high dosages. Like, don't read it.

You know, I wrote a lot about this in my longevity book. My guys, this is exercise in a pillow. It actually is. It PGC1 Alpha increases mitochondrial number one.

Drug in Russia, by the way, for.

Performance enhancement and also for longevity. Yeah, like you're crazy to not use it. So I have loved that stuff in super public. I think it's been eight, nine years since I ran cycles of that. Yeah, I, I did use that and three other SARMs all at once. I put on 29 pounds of muscle in six weeks and it was insane. I had to like buy new shirts. I was going to go speak on, on Tony Robbins stage and I literally couldn't wear the shirt that I bought. And so if you ever see a video of that, there's a reason that I'm sure it didn't fit, but that was part of the stack. The problem is if you put muscle on that fast, you're. Well, your, your tendons and ligaments don't like it. You know, you get some tears in your shoulders from that and bad things. So I'm not recommending that people go out and do that. But I do think Carterine's amazing and the fact that it's in here is.

So that is a pre fasted cardio supplement. If you take that before you do cardio and of course you could take it pre exercise but obviously cardio is a lot better because what if you.

Just take it because you want to?

I mean you can do that, but I mean if you want to sweat and burn incredible amount of calories, it's obviously as when you're fasting. It's amazing. We definitely don't want to end this podcast without talking about what's in the pipeline for GLPs because you know there's four and five stage agonists coming. So imagine like that those are going to make.

So I'm fasted and I'm just feeling like I should take some shreds.

Three or four.

Take three or four.

You'll definitely, I think too that in my opinion, based personal experience that I think there's actually a little bit of a cognitive pick me up too.

Oh, there's no doubt from Carterine for sure.

Yeah, yeah, from taking that. So we like to say it before exercise because it, the benefits for exercise are so much better from a performance standpoint, you know, to if you're doing cardio.

Yeah, that's an amazing training. So definitely.

And yeah, previously I was buying powder and I have a drug dealer scale.

We definitely have to mention that if you're going to talk about Shredex, because.

That'S the whole 15 with SLU.

Yeah.

Okay, tell me about this.

So that, that's really cool. And shout out to Alex Kickle. He helped us formulate meta shred and helped us with this. So like I mentioned before, there's this oxidative waste kind of buildup from driving too much mitochondrial energy. What's cool about band 15 is actually a mitochondrial uncoupler. And if people have heard that term, they probably have heard of dnp, right? That was the original mitochondrial coupler that helped you lose fat, but it.

It also gave you a fever.

Yeah, it gave you a fever and probably killed a few people in the process. So BAM15 has actually been studied a long time in rodents, and I know, and it's likely going to be coming out in human trials very soon. But what it does is, by itself, it works as a mitochondrial uncoupler to help drive fat loss and basically raise thermogenesis at rest. So basically, you take BAM 15, you sit on the couch all day. If you burn 2000 calories, you're going to burn 22 or 2300. But what's cool about it is it kind of acts as a scrub to all of that oxidative waste production that's coming from the slu. So when you pair them together, it's really nice, I like to say. I think the best analogy is if you have a car, right? The car throws off exhaust, right? That's good to a point, because you need energy to get where you want to go. But if you have too many cars throwing off too much exhaust, what happens? You have smog in the atmosphere. So the BAM15 actually kind of works as a filter on that exhaust to help you get energy out of the SLU without building up too much waste as a byproduct. So, again, you don't have to worry about that taking SLU unless you're taking super high doses for super long amounts of time. But the BAM15 works synergistically with it together to increase performance, but then also just from a longevity perspective. And what's cool about BAM15, too? This is only a rodent study, but they paired BAM15 and rodents, or used it against semaglutide and tirzepatide for fat loss. Bam 15 beat Semaglutide. There's appetite for fat loss.

Crazy.

What's awesome about it, too, almost no muscle loss. Whereas what do we talk about? Seeming glutide zeptide without the muscle loss. So it's pretty cool from that level.

All right, so. So for. If you're listening to this, there's a lot there. So if I summarize that stuff, it's biolongevitylabs.com Dave and you get a discount. Thanks, guys. And probably the. The. The Mac daddy of these is Shred X With Carterine, that was pretty, pretty exciting, at least for me, because I really like Carterine. And then the one for the maximum fat loss would be Meta Shred for sure.

Yeah. Anyone can use MetaShread and they're going to notice enhanced metabolism.

We like Alt like you. You can use those on alternate days. So more of a performance day. Shredx. And then maybe it's more of a resting day. Meta Shred would be good too.

So these are really powerful products and we didn't put them out here. But the bioregulators, I've been a fan of that stuff for a very long time. And you actually are now mixing them. And one of the things I always hated was getting a bunch of boxes with acrylic script. You can't even read it. And then you just open like 10 different ones to take all these little. So you have good blends. So thank you for doing the work.

Welcome. Well, and hopefully by the time this podcast comes out, we will have our own USA manufactured by regulators in bottles just like that.

So sweet.

Russian. Russian stuff, but, you know, in our own bottles and stuff like that. So people don't have to read Russian labels or Latvian labels or anything like that.

Or even sometimes too, when they're manufacturing them there, they have the production date.

Oh, God.

And then they see the production date and they're like, this is expired. It's like, no, it was. It was way. It was made on that date. And so it's actually not expired.

But yeah, guys, fascinating. And thanks for just focusing on peptides. Peptides, peptides. And a few other cool things mixed in there. Bioregulators and even the Carterine. So availability of these has been an absolute dumpster fire historically. I've ordered lots of things from Russia and everyone knows that's hard to do these days and you oftentimes don't know what you're getting. So you've got a massive inventory of things and you've got a lot of oral formulas that you can't get in most places. So thank you for just doing all the work because it is a lot of work to do it. And it's biolongevitylabs.com Dave, get a discount. And if you're saying that was so much information, look, pick one, right? Give it a try and see what happens and track your daily. How do I feel? Right? And maybe it's a longevity thing because it's a bioregulator. Maybe it's a performance or a fat loss or a cog cognitive function. And just look at what happened and then stack something on top of it. And don't forget, manage your hormones like a boss. Thanks for coming in Hunter Jay thank you, thank you.

Appreciate it.

See you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast.

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