Why Quality Meat Matters for You and the Planet - Michael Salguero : 543

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You're listening to Bulletproof Radio with Dave Asprey. Today's cool fact of the day could have implications for the future of our meat because science is looking for ways to build a better burger, but without cows. Two groups of scientists for similar reasons are looking at opposite ways of changing how meat is made. One of them says we're just going to grow the edible parts of the animal. The other one tries to simulate meat with plants. And the basic idea for culturing meat in a lab starts with cells from an animal, and they put those cells on little beads or other scaffolds, put them in a bioreactor, and then they use growth factors and nutrients, usually that come from plants after a lot of processing or something like that, into multiplying the cells. And it looks like two dozen startups are now working on ways to use lab culturing techniques that aren't perfected yet to make foods. And cultured meat is one of the two high science endeavors to get animals out of agriculture. The other group wants to take every bit of the animal out of agriculture and make meat from plants, which is kind of like making plants from meat, as in you can't really do it, but that's just an aside. And they're focusing on molecular biology of identifying proteins or other molecules that give meats their flavor and textures. So that they can then take junk food and make them taste like meat. Oh wait, sorry, that wasn't in my actual script here that I prepared ahead of time, but that's what they're doing. I don't care if it tastes like meat. If it's not meat and it doesn't get processed in your body like meat, it's not the same thing. So now the US FDA is taking the first step towards rules for growing meat in labs, not farms, and the FDA just convened its first public hearing to talk about regulating food grown from cells. Now, these are interesting. And if you wanted to feed, say, a colony on Mars, this might be a helpful kind of technology to do it. But there's just one problem. As a small farmer, I have 4 sheep and 2 pigs, you actually can't have healthy soil without this amazing thing called poop. And poop comes from animals. I can tell you where my sheep poop, I have amazing soil. and where they don't get to roam and graze, you just don't have good soil. So the idea that you can remove animals from agriculture is a fallacy. And the idea that industrial-fed, mistreated animals that are crowded onto land that can't sustain them is bad for soil and for human life is also true. So just like almost anything, there's a Goldilocks zone. Too much, too bad. Too little, not good. And this is true for nutrients.

It's true for water.

You can drown in water and you can die of thirst, but maybe there's medium level. And having animals in agriculture is really important. And that's what we're going to talk about on today's show. Grass-fed meat, what's different, how you can get it, and why it matters for the animals, why it matters for the planet, and why it matters for how you're going to think and behave after you eat it. That means that of course I'm interviewing Michael Salgaro, who is the head of ButcherBox, currently one of the largest, if not the largest supplier of ethically raised, grass-fed meat that you can get sent right to your home at affordable prices.

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Michael, welcome to the show. I'm happy to have you on.

Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Now, longtime listeners know Bulletproof is one of the companies that helped to put grass-fed on the map of important for, uh, for human health. So we're the people who put grass-fed collagen out there as an important food for, uh, nutrition and performance. And grass-fed butter, we created a global shortage of it in 2014 from, from coffee. And if you go to Whole Foods today, you see grass-fed yogurt all over the place. The, the demand for grass-fed comes from the science behind that animals who eat grass create different dairy, they create different meat, different nutritional profiles, less toxins, better soil, all these things. But you had to go somewhere and buy the stuff for $20 a pound, especially at the beginning.

Yep.

I started caring about this when my wife was infertile, and I did the research, and I said, I want to restore her fertility. We ended up writing a book about what we did to have 2 children at age 39 and 42 without IVF. My wife's a doctor, a medical doctor, and she now works with global clients on restoring fertility and having children without IVF. And every one of her clients is on grass-fed meat, pastured protein, high-quality eggs, because it's hard to get pregnant when you eat sick animals. What got you going in this grass-fed movement?

Actually, the exact same thing.

I knew you were going to say that.

So my wife has Hashimoto's, which is a thyroid condition, and it's an inflammatory response. So we started looking at our diets, both of us together, but doing a bunch of elimination diets starting with the easier kind of Whole30 diet and then moving on to more hardcore elimination diets. And everything that we saw, everything that we read, every piece of research we did said exactly what you just said, right? It's eat a diet of pasture-raised animals, eat a diet of grass-fed beef. And I started looking for it and couldn't find it anywhere. And when I did find it in one store— I live in Boston, so in one Whole Foods in Cambridge, which is a, you know, super wealthy, super high educated area. It was like ground beef and a couple of other cuts, maybe some ribeyes and some New York strips, and that's it. And that was a little non-compelling to me because I like cooking. I like cooking different cuts of meat. I like making stews. There's a lot of stuff I like to do with beef. And, you know, just eating ground beef was not really that, that exciting. So I started looking, and I'm one of these obsessive people, especially when it comes to thinking about problems and how to solve them. So I started trying to find grass-fed beef. And I ended up contacting a farmer in Albany or near Albany and started buying cow shares from this farmer. So this farmer would—

I've done that too.

Yeah. So the farmer would drive, drive like a truck full of meat to near Boston and you'd get your trash bag full of meat. And the first time I did that, I didn't have enough room in my freezer. To put all the meat in because I lived in a small apartment in the city. So I actually gave some to my friends and said, here, take this because I can't, I can't fit it in my freezer. 6 months later, I bought more. And this time my friends were like, oh, next time you get that meat, like, definitely get me in on it. So I bought more. And then 6 months after that, I ended up buying a whole cow and splitting it up and selling it to a bunch of friends and coworkers.

But you kept all the ribeyes for yourself.

Yeah, of course. Of course. You know, you got to keep that, got to keep that stash for yourself, right? So, yeah. So I split it up and sold it and made my share for free. And, you know, one of the guys was like, this would be so much better if it was just delivered to my house. And I was like, oh yeah, that would be good. So then in my typical fashion, I just got obsessed about how would I send meat. First of all, how would you source this stuff like nationwide, etc.? But then also, how would I send it directly to your door? So that was a whole, you know, a whole rat hole trying to figure out how it all works and whatnot. And I ended up meeting the former head of operations of Omaha Steaks, who opened up some doors. So Omaha Steaks is a huge steak-in-the-mail company. He opened up some doors and we just got going. So September of 2015, so about 3 years ago, we launched a Kickstarter. And like we talked about before the show, my expectations were modest. I didn't think that— I knew there was a market, but I didn't think it was very big. I thought this was a very niche thing.

Kind of like mold-free coffee.

Right.

I was like, whoa. So Kickstarter, we went out to raise $25,000 and we raised that in like, I forget, like 30 hours or something. And we ended up doing $215,000 in 30 days. Also, the day before our Kickstarter launched, Consumer Reports cover story was the case for grass-fed beef, which is like, wow, I guess timing was pretty good on that. And then, we got picked up by a bunch of like— the Today Show did this taste testing. We had Inc. and a whole bunch of others writing about us. So, my previous life, I ran a different company. Which has a lot of parallels, which is really interesting. But it was called Custom Made and custommade.com, and we connected artisans and craftspeople with consumers, raised a bunch of venture capital, did that whole thing. And so this was like the anti-that. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to like just, just run a business, do it the old-fashioned way. And what we found was people had the same need I had, like Lots of people, whether they listen to your podcast or read your blog or were trying to follow a certain type of diet and went to the grocery store and couldn't find this product and were like, what do I do? They— people are looking for humanely raised, antibiotic hormone-free, pasture-raised, kind of all the claims and don't know where to get it, can't find it. And when they can find it, it's incredibly expensive. And we're looking for a different solution. I'd like to say that we did a whole bunch of testing and whatnot, but we didn't. We just kind of launched and we're like, whoa, there's— wow, people are really interested in this. This is pretty interesting. And that's, that's basically how we began. And, you know, we've always had an eye on— we don't have any investors. We are— we always have an eye on wanting to align what we want to do for the customer. We think it's possible to have a company that services the customer and our members really well, gives them an incredible deal, gives them great cuts they might not never have tried before, also get the farmer enough money so that they can actually make a living doing the work that they want to do, and also treat the animal well and the environment well all at the same time, which is a pretty lofty goal, but You know, it's, um, it's a, it's a, it's a noble cause to be waking up for in the morning.

This, uh, past weekend I was at the X Prize Visioneering Circle, and this is with Peter Diamandis and the guys who put together a $10 million prize for, uh, the first private space travel that took— basically took the gloves off. So now we have Richard Branson and Elon Musk, you know, building, and Jeff Bezos, uh, you know, building these spaceships and all based on one big prize. And one of the prizes that got the most attention this year was raising small farmers out of poverty. This was mostly targeted at developing nations where they're saying we're going to use our ability to innovate around technology and supply chains in order to help small farmers get their product to market. But what was missing from that conversation is that in the U.S., about 90% of small farmers have a day job, and it's not farming. It's that they cannot make ends meet on a small farm, whether or not they're doing cattle or sheep the way I am, or pigs, or just chickens and eggs and vegetables. And they work just as hard on their farm as they do their day job, so they're constantly exhausted, and it's financially burdensome, and they're lucky if they make a few bucks at the end of the year, right? And part of that is because they're selling it wholesale, or they spend a lot of time selling. And I, I'm intrigued by what you're doing because I know that there's overwhelming demand for high-quality, healthy, tasty meat that comes from ethically treated animals who were not fed antibiotics and were not crowded into pens. And, and I, I don't need industrial meat. I, I don't do that because it's bad for my body, it's bad for the planet, I think it's ethically questionable. So I don't know how to go about getting that meat. I do know where I live, I can get it from my neighbors or I can get it from my own animals. But I live— I didn't used to live here and part of the reason I live here is to be able to do that. But when I'm traveling and all, there's just no opportunity. And if you live in a big city, unless you have a hookup like you did, you know, you have a friend who goes off and does it, there was no way to do it. So you'd go to, you know, a big grocery store and they might have something, and it might be from an ethically treated animal, but it didn't support a small farmer. It supported a small— a larger company. And it, it may or may not taste good. And it was very expensive. And you've cracked all these things where you're supporting the small farmers in the US so they make more money than they would have. You're supporting soil because when animals poop on soil and you have the appropriate level of animals, especially on land that's good for grazing but not good for growing stuff, you're, you're actually helping everything. And did you envision that whole system of making, uh, making, you know, the, the farmers better off as well as the, the animals and the planet at the same time you were saving people money? Or was, was that saving? I mean, it's kind of surprising, but I'm seeing all these things coming together and like, it was, it strategic or was this kind of like, I just want good meat.

It started, I mean, it started as just trying to find my wife some, some good meat to eat. Um, and, uh, No, but you know what's amazing is, so I told you my last company, Custom Made, we raised a bunch of money from Google and First Round Capital and a bunch of other people. And our pitch deck had a feedlot as one of like the first photos. It was a feedlot. And then the second photo was a happy cow. And it was all about how people like, people don't know their meat comes from this. And it was talking about transparency in production. So, How would you do that with a dining room table? And it's amazing the signs that show up in your life early on that it was like the business was there, I just didn't know. And so, no, I did not think of that. And to be honest, it's an ongoing challenge because it's really hard to, as you said, it's really hard to be a farmer, a small farmer, The system is set up to have, to make it very challenging for farmers. And I think we can do a better job of helping small farmers while guiding. We like to call it guiding the large and helping the small. So there are lots of small farmers out there that need a lot of help. They need a market, they need access. And then once you have a market and access, they need help with getting a truck on there on time, and they need help figuring out how to, you know, deal with paperwork and POs and financing and all that. And on the large side, there are a lot of, or I would say a handful of larger companies, medium to large size companies, not huge ag companies, but large companies that really want to do the right thing and need guidance, frankly, need to be shown there's a market and need the guidance. So, it's a really interesting spot that we're in. I'll give you one example which I found fascinating. We don't have a solution for yet, but we're working on it. And, it goes back to your raising small farmers out of poverty. So, basically, every cow starts out the same way. It's 6 months cow-calf, meaning it's a cow and its mother, and then a year of a cow just on grass, the yearling. So, basically, it just spends a year eating grass. And then, 98% of the cows go to a feedlot where they're fed a diet of corn and grain and other stuff to put on a lot of weight.

Induce diabetes, right? Yeah.

Put on a bunch of weight as fast as possible using a cheap input of corn and grains. 2% stay on and just eat grass. So, when I got into it, meet these farmers, it's like, "Well, why don't you just keep more of them on grass? You get paid more." Well, it turns out that all the loans that they get expire after 18 months. So they have to trade that cow. So there's like, even from a banking perspective, the bank does not give them an extra, you basically have to keep a cow on grass for another 10 months. So you'd have to keep the debt out there for another 10 months. So generally, these people don't birth the cows, because that's a whole other like thing. They purchase the cows after 6 months. And then they raise them for that year-long period and then they have to sell them or else they owe the bank like a crippling amount of money that they can't afford. So, when you get down into the actual like the nitty-gritty of what's happening in the business, it's really fascinating. So, antibiotics is another one. So, we're never ever, which means the cow was never administered antibiotic, but that cow is really expensive. So, you've got a small farmer they've got thousands of dollars on the line. And, you know, it's in some ways, I feel bad about the fact that I say to them, "Hey, look, I recognize it's a 75-cent dosage of antibiotics, but we can't have it because our customer, you know, would never allow that. We'll never allow that." And it's, you know, there's all these structural things that are set up to basically make it harder and harder and harder for that small farm to be able to compete. So where do we stand, right? So, you know, first and foremost, we want animals that have gone through some sort of humane treatment, humane treatment standards. So whether it's GAP certification or Certified Humane, there are organizations out there on the ground making sure that people are doing the right thing. In addition, we obviously have standards in terms of antibiotics. Hormones, all that stuff, that all that's out and that these animals are treated incredibly well. And you keep talking about the soil, which I think is incredibly interesting, where the research is coming out that you have— if you pasture-raise an animal on the land, which you've seen in your backyard, they poop, they, they walk on the poop, and it basically creates new grass in ways that are— is very exciting. You can basically take a field that has been over-farmed and put animals on it and it turns into a grassland, which is a carbon sequestration thing. So there's, there's lots of really interesting, lots of really interesting benefits to choosing this type of meat.

It's something that I didn't understand fully until we really had animals. And sheep are annoying. Our sheep are, are sort of— they think we're part of the flock. So if they escape from their, their pasture, which we used to just let them do on purpose, they just walk up to the house and they sit on the front porch and look in the windows like, hey, what are you guys doing in there? We should be inside. And they've tried to come in the house. The problem is that sheep are not like dogs or even pigs. Pigs, they go to the corner of the sty, they poop in the corner because they're not meant to fertilize by Mother Nature. Sheep, they just walk around pooping like it's just no big deal, and they have no idea where they're doing it, why they're doing it. It's just built in. It's awesome because if you're a pasture, you're going to get even spread of manure and then they walk on it and you see this vibrant green grass that grows and the pasture right next to them that they don't go on is not the same grass. Unfortunately for my front porch, they also think it's a pasture, which is why you don't want sheep there. But when you switch to another kind of animal, pigs, their role in the ecosystem is to root things up and to turn over the soil.

So we—

where we put the pigs, they get rid of all the invasive plant species, and they, they take a forest that would be ready to catch on fire, which is a big issue up here in British Columbia, and they'll actually remove underbrush and pile it up and, and turn things over. So they reduce fire risk and they prepare the soil, which is profound. So when you realize this is how the world works, and when you have this I don't actually know really where the mindset comes from other than just a complete disconnection from nature. People say, "Well, I'm only going to eat vegetables." It's like, "Do you know how we did that?" And when I talk with permaculture people and people doing biodynamic farming, and we do a lot of both here, they're all saying, "I don't know how to get the right plant nutrients unless you have this virtuous cycle." If we eliminate that with monoculture, which is what ultimately happens if you say, "I'm only going to eat soy-based—" Right, soybeans and—

Tofurky.

I'm concerned about our soil. I'm concerned about our ability to reproduce as a species, as human beings. It's that big of a deal.

Soil is such a— the amount of life that is in soil, in good soil, it's teeming with life, right? I recognize, I don't want to denigrate the kind of argument around, look, it's a life. I don't feel comfortable taking a life of an animal. But again, if you go into that monoculture world, I mean, there's lots of things that are not happening that would be happening if there were animals pooping on that land and stomping it into the soil.

Would you be okay if I denigrate that argument?

Sure, sure. I'll let you do that. Here's the deal, Mike. I was in Tibet and I was learning meditation at a monastery and it was a 10-day program and the deal was no killing. So it was a vegetarian diet. And I went to the head of the monastery and Tibetan monks love arguing. They're trained to argue since they're young children. They'll have 10 older kids around them, like all yelling arguments at them and they'll have to remain calm and make arguments. It's actually beautiful. To see. And I said, hey, you're a hypocrite. Of course, I was— I had to quite figure things out. You're a hypocrite. You have a yak skin on your prayer pole. That's killing. And he laughed at me. He goes, yes. He said, one death feeds everyone. And that was his whole answer. And so I went back, and I had been a raw vegan before I went to Tibet, and I said, you know what, I'm going to figure out deaths per calorie. And I can tell you that if I eat a pound of grass-fed meat a day, which is more than is healthy, and it's grass-fed, 0.7 deaths per year. Now, if I was to eat a tofurkey or, you know, a tofu burger or, you know, a potato-based fake burger, the amount of habitat destruction and— okay, I see what tractor kills look like. If you are lucky enough to be in a farm area that still has butterflies and ladybugs and grasshoppers and cute bunnies and turtles and mice and snakes and salamanders After the tractor goes through, they're all cut into pieces. So if you think that you're eating a vegan death-free burger, I'm sorry, you need to switch to the gravel-based vegan diet and you're not going to live. Right. And so you're destroying the soil. You're killing more animals through habitat destruction than you are if you incorporate grass-fed, sustainable, regenerative agriculture in your diet. You have a moral obligation to do this because a world without farm animals that are ethically treated, ethically raised, is a world without soil.

Is that clear?

And it's a bigger and bigger problem every year that we let this continue, right? So the more that we can move people— we actually have a lot of, I call them recovered vegetarians, but we have a lot of people who are like, okay, either health-wise I'm having a real hard time just eating beans for protein or eating vegetables for protein, or they've caught on to this kind of argument of like, wait a minute, this doesn't feel right. Like, if I'm worried about life, this doesn't feel like the right move. And they come to us because they're like, okay, if I'm going to eat this type of meat, I want to make sure it's to the highest standard possible. And there's, you know, it's really fascinating. So, you know, to answer about 20 minutes ago, you asked the question, did I know all this stuff when I got into it? No. But it's really exciting the more that we peel back the onion and the more that we realize just how important the soil is, just how important carbon sequestration is. People think I'm crazy when I talk about how actually putting animals on the soil might be the only chance we've got to help the environment in terms of, you know, could we make a carbon-neutral meat? Could we make it emission-free, whether that's buying offsets or measuring the actual carbon emitted from cows out on the field? It's— Yeah.

I've got good news for you. I mentioned XPRIZE earlier. I, in a small way equal to my means, I'm helping to fund the creation of an XPRIZE around sucking carbon out of the atmosphere using solar-powered things so that we can actually use it to build blocks. So maybe we'll have a farm where the fencing is made from carbon we pulled out of the air to make the fence so that then we can keep the cows from going onto the neighbor's property and pooping on their front porch, which is not cool. But I truly believe just like you, there is an ethical, there's a moral, and there's a survivability reason that incorporating moderate amounts of grass-fed animal protein is important because if they're not in our environment, they're not these big methane producers. I saw a statistic someone posted arguing about the whole carbon cycle saying, you know, a pound or a kilo of meat takes 4,000 gallons of water. If you feed it corn and soy and you truck it across the country and you have industrial agriculture, that's probably true. I could tell you that my 4 sheep in 2 years have used 1,000 gallons of water in total. All right, and it came from the sky because we just capture rainwater. Like, it wasn't that big of a deal. And so the differences are profound. And all these arguments about don't eat meat or whatever, they're always based on the assumption that everyone eats industrial meat. There isn't a name. And Mike, maybe you and ButcherBox can come up with a name or I'll help, but what is the name for people who only eat ethical, local, grass-fed meat? We're not vegetarians, we're not vegans, we're not standard American diets, we're not paleo, we're not omnivores, but we actually care so much about the animals and the soil and the planet that we choose the type of meat that we eat.

What's our name? Yeah, I don't know. We call them conscious, the conscious consumer or the conscious customer. People that, um, what we talk about, and that's not a good answer, but, uh, we'll What we talk about is it's the awakening, right? So, it's when people realize, they're like, "Wait a minute, this is crazy. Why would I eat this product when I could eat this product over here? Why would I put my dollars here when I could put them over here?" And we're seeing more and more people getting awakened and figuring out that grass-fed, ethically sourced is way better. And that's really exciting. The meat industry, you know, to defend the meat industry, the meat industry just responded to what people in this country thought was important. So in the '50s and '60s, people thought meat that needed to be as cheap as possible. So they figured out a way to take corn and antibiotics and make a larger animal.

And dinosaur chickens with, you know, Hulk-level chicken breasts who can't walk.

Yeah, yeah. And because people want cheaper and cheaper and they didn't care about anything else. And now what's happening is people care about that stuff, which is, you know, through our efforts, through your efforts, through other people out there really helping people to see that that's not, that's not the right approach. But it's going to take a lot of work to convince the average customer. You know, we go to like meat conferences and stuff like that and This industry is a rounding error in the entire meat world. It's tiny. I mean, it's nothing. It's 2% of the entire market in the US. It's, you know, it's really important to me. It's really important to your listeners. But in terms of like the impact and stuff like that, I mean, we got a ton of work to do in order to get people more on this, more on this path. And then even in like grass-fed, just as a short tangent, What's happening in this country is, you know, people are like, oh yeah, people like grass-fed. Okay, let's figure out how to put that into the system that we have already. So what you're seeing is more and more companies coming out with confined grass-fed product. Confine the animal, feed it grass, because we can just do that right next to everything else that we're doing.

And it's probably still healthier for you than confined corn and soy and genetically modified antibiotic-treated, etc., etc., but it's not good for the animal. And it's not good for the soil, right? Creates concentrated urine puddles and all that kind of stuff. And it's getting hard from a labeling perspective to know, are you getting ethically raised, ethically butchered meat? But that's actually what the market demands. And I hope that there are some meat industry people listening to the show who are saying, wait, you mean if I tell the story, the truthful story of how my meat is produced, that will be worth more? It is. And here's the challenge and something that is a part of the Bulletproof Diet. Hey, spend twice as much on your meat. And then people, mind blown, I don't have enough money. That's cool. Eat half as much. You don't need excessive amounts of protein. You have 2 to 4 ounces of grass-fed meat. You'll be full if you put enough fat on your food. And yes, grass-fed butter is shockingly affordable. It's about $3 for a pound of that. That'll fill you up fast. And you actually will spend probably more on vegetables than you will on the meat in your meal because it's hard to get enough vegetables in a modern diet. And I'm actually working on some ways to improve that. But when you look at that meat component, you say, well, if I just go without it, you're hungrier faster and you don't get the nutrients and the soil doesn't benefit and the farmers don't benefit. So, I consider that non-optional. Yes, I make vegetarian meals sometimes. I'll go out to a vegan restaurant because I'm not going to eat industrial meat anyway. But on a general basis, every argument lines up, whether it's animal cruelty, whether it's economic, whether it's sociological, environmental. I just, I can't think of a reason that this is a bad idea unless you're allergic to meat or something, in which case you probably are going to be eating fish. Do you see a world 10 years from now, 20 years from now where there's so much demand for ethically raised grass-fed meat the way that you're making it with ButcherBox that we run out of places to grow cows?

No, certainly in this country you do. It's very hard to raise grass-fed beef in the US. But there are countries like Australia that are, you know, Australia has 26 million people and is very large and land is cheap versus the US where land is very expensive and cows need a lot of land. So, no, I mean, I've seen the argument before, but I honestly, if we were innovating around how to feed more animals the input that they were designed to eat, I think we could figure out ways to do that and it would not be a concern. It's not a concern.

What would you think if some technology-focused entrepreneur came out with an algae-based cow feed? I'm just making this up. No, that's out there.

That's out there. Yeah.

That replicated the benefits of grass. So, okay, they're not grass-fed, but they're free-roaming and they eat these big algae pellets and they poop and they're actually regenerating soil in an arid region where they might not otherwise be able to do it. Would you eat that?

Would I eat it? Would I eat it regularly or would I eat—

Would you eat a cow that ate that instead of grass if it was nutritionally complete?

Geez. I would try it. That's for sure. I don't know if that would be my I like the whole idea of back to nature, which is on our logo, it's on our box. It's one of the things we talk about, which is nature intended these animals to eat a certain way and all we're trying to do is bring them back to that. So, algae, sure. I mean, if that's a— I have heard about this algae that helps them to fart less and therefore helping with the carbon thing. I think, I mean, look, I'll try anything and I would try it, but I don't think that that would be like a staple of my diet. If I'm gonna eat meat, I want it to be the highest quality possible, raised the way that nature intended.

I'm with you. And I'm also looking at that, how are we gonna feed 9 billion people? Yeah, right. Assuming that human fertility rates remain high enough for us to keep growing like that, people are unaware of how hard it is to get pregnant today because of the health of our species. But if more people eat grass than meat, they'll actually be more fertile. So, maybe that's the downside that we haven't tried yet. Anyway, there may come a time where we realize that we need to have these animals in areas that are deserts so that there's no grass to eat. So, truck in the algae, make nutritionally complete meat, let the animals go out and turn the desert back into proper soil. And this is not what Mother Nature intended. It's how Mother Nature works. But if we have to pour some gas on that fire to make it happen faster, I'm all in support of it and I'll eat that. And I bet we could even engineer the foods so they have a bit more omega-3 or more conjugated linoleic acid, the stuff that's already in grass-fed beef. So I'm, I'm, I think we're going to have to become more aware stewards of our environment when we put on our 10 and 20-year hats. In the meantime, let's just get more people in our own neighborhoods raising a few cattle because now it's profitable and because there's a market. And I am, I couldn't be more excited about that. And that's why watching ButcherBox since you were first founded, we had some conversations when you first got going around your first Kickstarter. And now I look at where you are and I'm damned excited because you can get high quality bacon. And we didn't even talk about pigs yet, but quality pork has the most amazing fat ratios for our bodies. And bad pork is one of the worst things you can eat because pork accumulates toxins the way humans do. Because pigs have a system that uses their kidneys instead of their liver. Your liver is a good filter and your kidneys aren't very good ones. So, humans and pigs both use our kidneys and that's why we're so susceptible to toxins from mold and heavy metals and things. And, if you're feeding moldy corn to pigs, we know what happens. So, that's why they feed it to pigs in feedlots right before they're going to butcher them. Like, "Ah, the pig won't have time to get sick from that food, they'll just get fat." And then, of course, those bioaccumulate and that's not cool. But, when you get clean pork the way the way you're doing with ButcherBox, it is profoundly good. It tastes different and you get a food high from a pork belly that comes from a properly fed pig. And I'm excited in particular because you have a limited time thing you're doing with ButcherBox and people listening to the show probably already heard a ButcherBox ad. But people go to butcherbox.com/bulletproof Use the Bulletproof code, save $20 on trying some of these amazing things and get free bacon. I think that's only on for a limited time, but if they sign up, I think they get free bacon for life, at least for some period of time. That's right. Yeah. And I can tell you having bacon that way is amazing and it's a very different experience unless you burn the bacon. So, this is a hack for all of you who haven't read the Bulletproof Diet. If you cook your bacon until it's crispy, you've basically damaged the fats and you've damaged the proteins and it's going to taste good, but it's going to be inflammatory. But if you take this amazing bacon from ButcherBox where the pigs actually ate the right foods and they're heritage breed and it's very different than what you're used to getting at the store and you cook it on low or low medium so it doesn't sizzle and spatter and you cook it so that it's still soft, but it's fully cooked. You get this amazing flavor. But most importantly, when you're done eating it, you feel really good. And the fat that's left because you didn't burn it, it didn't smoke, it's still usable for cooking. And if you make fried eggs over medium temperature, not fast hot fried in that bacon grease, that's what your grandmother did. That's what your great-grandmother did. And if you do that and you feed it to your kids, you'll see your kids eat fried eggs like you've never seen in your life because they are the best food you'll ever have. And if you're really a badass, instead of doing over easy, get a little propane torch or a culinary torch and you just wave it over the top of the egg so the top gets a little bit firm. Blowtorch. Wow. I think I have a video doing that. So, that's how to do it. That's in my cookbook. But so anyway, I kind of digress here a little bit, but I just have to say, The difference in how you feel matters. And that's why— and I wanted to actually bring this up— at the Bulletproof Cafe in Santa Monica, we only have grass-fed and wild-caught, and we always have. And I learned maybe 10% about the supply chain compared to what you know for grass-fed meat. And some of the issues for restaurants— I wanted to actually feature local small-farmed beef, and it turns out a lot of times For restaurant standards, they won't let you do that. They require mega butchering facilities and things like this, which are, which are not particularly cool because that means that some of the very best meat out there, you can buy it at home, but you aren't allowed to buy it at a restaurant. And I found that really frustrating and we've worked our way around it as best we can. So it's always grass-fed, but some of the locals, you can buy it, you can cook it, but I'm not allowed to do it for you. And that makes me mad. Do you see regulations changing so that will be more acceptable or is it going the other way?

Yeah, I think it's probably going the other way and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. I think we need to figure out how to use technology in a way that helps make sure that like the cows going in are the cows coming out and that there's no way to mess up like what meat you're getting and these large processing facilities can clean the lines and there's a lot of work that needs to be done to make sure that the right cows are going through. I have this, my own, one of the big learnings that I had in this business was I went into it thinking big is bad, big is always bad. So, from a slaughterhouse perspective, You know, there's kind of two slaughterhouses that I've toured a lot of slaughterhouses, but there's two types. There's the super small one where, you know, local farm comes in and they're doing maybe 50 head of cattle a week. And then there's the super large one, which is like, and this is actually small on the scale of super large, but 2,000 head a day, totally different scale. And if I were a cow, um, and if I were, um, trying to do, which we are trying to do, the most humane thing possible, I actually think the larger one is a better place. Um, because the small one, when you're doing 50 a week, there's really no incentive to, um, have it be as quick and rapid and humane of a killing as possible, um, versus the large one. So what you find is if you look at like the affidavits of write-ups, um, you find that like the bolt gun stopped working but nobody really cared because it didn't really matter. Um, and when, when you're at a large scale, that bolt gun, they can't stop the line. It's like a picture, an auto factory, like the line doesn't stop. So, um, they're— they, they, they do things to be more efficient in, in the killing in a way that was actually kind of surprising and mind-blowing to me in terms of You know, like, which— there's always two sides of the coin of like, where do you want to play on the— or where do you want to think about the issues? Restaurants are super interesting as well because there's no regulation around labels, like zero. So, you can literally say whatever you want. It happens all the time. So, that all-natural grass-fed product that you're purchasing, there's really nobody coming into that restaurant and inspecting it and saying, What is that? Where is it from? So obviously going to the Bulletproof Cafe, somebody would know that you guys give a shit about like where your meat comes from and have done the research. But in a lot of places, you know, you can charge more if you just call it something different. And unfortunately it happens. So it's, you know, more and more I just end up wanting to eat at home. The more I know, I'm just like, okay, let me just eat my own product at home.

Yeah, I do grow all my own food when I'm at home, but I'm on the road about 150 days a year. And also, I have to thank you to be willing to talk about the butchering process at the end. No one wants to think about that. Yeah, right. And to be open about it. Here's the deal. If you don't eat meat, many animals die that you aren't paying attention to. Including sentient ones beyond insects. And the more monoculture, the more grains that you eat, the more animals die, a lot of them. And you don't have to think about it, but it's happening. And if you choose to eat industrial meat, which I simply don't do, I won't put it in my body. I don't like how I feel when I eat it. And I think it's cruel and I think it's bad for the world. And if you do that, you can almost guarantee that the animal died in terror. And if you go with an ethical supplier, you go and you look at the slaughterhouses to make sure that it's done without suffering, without cruelty, minimizing fear. And I had to get comfortable with that as a small farmer. You know, our two pigs are going to become bacon, right? And I know their names. We've fed them every day. And we feel ethically very clean about it and that we've given the best happiest life possible and they will be slaughtered actually very ethically. We're having a family member who's very experienced at running a farm come out and help do it and for local processing and all that. And look, if you're going to be alive on this planet, something's going to die in order to feed you. Whether it's a bacteria, whether it's a plant and the whole ecosystem and whether you're comfortable with that or not, it is a fact of being alive. So, the deal is how do you make sure that given that happens, how do you minimize it and how do you make it happen with minimum suffering and with fewer deaths per calorie you eat?

And I think there's a way to do it.

And grass-fed beef is necessary and these pastured animals, they're part of the world and eliminating those does not eliminate suffering. It does not eliminate an environmental burden, it creates an environmental burden. If we live in a world with just vegetables and humans, it's not going to be a world that works. And so, so thank you for just being ethical and paying attention to the hard part of creating grass-fed meat so that, you know, when, when you're putting something on your plate that you cooked at your house, that the entire thing from how that animal is born, how long it lived with its parents, whether 6 months is a long period of time, compared to what a lot of ranchers do. And that's also part of being ethical. So, getting all the steps right. I've talked with you before. I've looked at what you're doing. And ButcherBox pays attention to all the steps. So, the system creates super high quality food and a high quality of life for animals and better soil. And that's ultimately bulletproof where you're saying, "What impact did I have on the world around me? And did I treat my body with the utmost respect so that I can show up all the way every day?" And I can tell you, if you're eating garbage meat, you're not going to show up the way you're capable of showing up every day. And it matters. It matters greatly. And that's why I'm just— I'm stoked to see that it's now possible to do what you and I both did 10 years ago, which is call the farmer. Hey, can I buy only a quarter cow because my freezer is not big enough? Can I get the right cuts? And just to do away with all that. And what you've done is you found this like rounding error in this monstrous industry that does bad things to our soil, our water, and our animals. And to say, actually, there's goodness here. Let's find the goodness. Let's make it accessible. So, man, I'm truly grateful that you've just done the hard logistics and supply chain and just doing it with integrity. So, you know, full kudos to you for doing that. Thank you. Now, I want to talk a little bit about you. Your first big company, uh, Founder Made, kind of like you said earlier, it did the same thing. You found all these artisans doing, you know, crazy, uh, dining room tables and lamp fixtures and custom jewelry and all, and found a way to connect them with people they, they couldn't find before. And now you're doing the same thing, though instead of creating, you know, diamond rings, they're creating artisanal beef and, and pork in, in ways that, that are in alignment with ethical values. Why do you keep going out and finding all these crazy artisanal people, bringing them together, and then making them accessible to others? Like, what's driving you to do that?

You know, honestly, I don't, I don't know. I feel like I'm being, I'm being driven rather than I was the driver. In both cases, what I found was the internet and technology does some pretty incredible things in terms of connecting people that otherwise could not be connected. So the, um, you know, the, the retired Navy submarine driver who lives in Pennsylvania, in Amish country, and has a small shop in his basement and makes the most amazing beds you could possibly buy, um, has no access to a market in California. Or in Texas or in, you know, even New York. And it turns out that because the internet exists, that, that person can now snap some photos of the project they're working on, can post it, can talk to people, and we can just take care of all the details behind the scenes. And what I think is really interesting— so what I love is leveraging technology to go into old-world businesses and kind of flip them on on the head. So, I'm very much the kind of revolutionary. I talk about this, actually, I just talked about this with my company, but I have this vivid memory when I was in college, the World Economic Forum was in New York City and I was part of the protesters. So, I was on the other side of the fence with a picket. I don't even remember what I was protesting, but I was just angry and wanting change in the world. And I had a voice in my head that said, if you want to change the world, you need to be on the other side of the line or the, of the fence, the other side of the fence. And that fundamentally changed my perspective and my path. I believe that you can run a business and do it ethically and treat your employees well and treat the world well and do things that utilizing the tools that we have to connect people that otherwise would not be connected and, and frankly are being marginalized because You know, like we always said, you could get a dining room table from Restoration Hardware, or you can get the same one made by a local artisan that's better quality and less, less price. Like, why would you ever choose one? It doesn't make any sense. Of course, everyone's gonna choose the other one. So it's, it's been quite the ride. The first business we, you know, my co-founder and I set out, we raised a bunch of money like we talked about. Ultimately, it didn't work the way that we had hoped, mainly because customers don't want to go through— the reason why they want to go to Restoration Hardware is they don't want to go through all the choices and all the back and forth and all the nitty-gritty of specifying what a bookshelf should look like or what a dining room table should look like. It's like too much. I think this is different because food is so sacred. And it's a religious experience of eating food is just like, you know, it's a ritual. It's like you go home, you're with your family, you put dinner down in front of yourself and your kids. And people just care so much about what they're consuming and what they're feeding their children. And I care so much about what I'm feeding my children. And this one just, it has felt right from the beginning. It's felt like it's really my calling. And you know, what's crazy is, getting on like the personal entrepreneur thing. So my mother collects cows. So growing up, I had cows and piggy banks. Her mother, her grandmother collected piggy banks. So I grew up and I had so many cows around the house and pigs. And, you know, it's just funny how it's like, oh, wow, it's like it was always there. It's just I didn't quite I didn't quite realize it. I like to tell people that when they're like, "How do you come up with your ideas for companies?" It's like, "Let me tell you how I lived around all these cows and never put it together." It took me 32 years to put that one together, so 30, 34 years, whatever.

I did not know that and that is hilarious. So, it was right in front of you the whole time. Yeah, yeah. I believe, and this has been a part of Bulletproof. I believe that something has shifted where it used to be we were— we wanted to just save money on food. So I'll buy the cheapest possible food that makes me feel full. And I found that that led me to be really sick. And I believe now that people are actually grateful to pay a little bit more for a lot more quality, whether it's furniture, whether it's meat, whether it's food. Because they realize that, that how they feel when, you know, the, the thing that holds the toilet paper doesn't fall off the wall, you know, like, like when you just don't buy the cheapest possible junk. And the internet has led on one hand to an explosion of the cheapest crap you can buy. Like, when's the last time you bought something that lasted more than 2 years, uh, of almost any kind of consumer packaged goods? So I, I am opposed to that, but I still don't know how to go online and tell I'm buying something high quality or low quality because The stickers are there. But when it comes to something like what you're doing with ButcherBox, like, well, here's all the stuff that's in it and you get the box of it and you can tell when you eat it and you have all the steps. So I think that the internet is now— first it was how do I get access to all the cheap crap and the sort of the distribution of lower quality stuff that's highly convenient. And now people are saying, I've had enough of that. I don't want to throw away my toaster every every year. I don't want to eat industrial meat. I don't want low quality and I'm willing to pay slightly more. And if you can cut out some of the layers of distribution and marketing and all that and you can be connected with one level of separation away from a small farmer or an artisan, it's actually worth more because it feels better as a consumer. And what you get is noticeably better. It's that noticeable effectiveness. And I would challenge— I challenge you listening to this, try ButcherBox. Only eat grass-fed meat for 2 weeks or a month. And just if you go out to eat and you're not eating at home, just have the salad and don't put the industrial chicken on there and just say, this is all I'm going to do. And watch the quality of your thinking as you do that. And you will notice a difference because when you eat animals full of hormones and glyphosate and antibiotic residues, it affects your gut bacteria. They affect the quality of your mitochondrial behavior. They affect the quality of how you think and the level of inflammation you have. And you can actually think differently. And I would even say you can be a slightly upgraded human being just by taking the bad stuff out of your diet for that period of time and replacing it with the appropriate amount of high-quality grass-fed animals, it changes who you are. It changes what you're made out of. It's that big of a deal. So give that a shot and just realize you're spending a dollar and the dollar can support feedlots, waste reservoirs full of basically rotting cow and pig poop, which are a huge problem in the southern US, or it can support a small farmer who's regenerating soil And you're going to enjoy it more if you do that because you know the effect it had and you feel better because you got the right stuff in your body. And that's, that's why I want to do this interview. That's why I'm just overjoyed to see that you've solved the problem that personally I've spent a lot of time talking to small farmers, trying to get the right cuts and all this to the point I live on a small farm. And now that problem is solved, especially people live in cities. So, man, thank you for your work, Mike. Thank you for making ButcherBox. It's super legit. And I have one more question for you. Someone comes to you tomorrow and says, "Mike, you've been an entrepreneur. Now you're a dad. You've done all sorts of things. I want your advice. I want to perform better at everything I do as a human being. What are the 3 most important things?" that you'd offer me as advice, what would you say? Oof. All right.

So, number 1, exercise. I think exercise is incredibly important. I think not just going for a walk, but doing some sort of, you know, heavy lifting. I do CrossFit. I do interval training. So, I would say exercise is a huge one. Number 2, this is kind of— can I go on a little bit of a tangent? Is that okay? Oh yeah, absolutely. I was mentioning this before, but I've recently gotten my mind blown with this conscious leadership group. And essentially, I'll give the short version, which is I'm sure you meditate or have meditated, right? Okay. So, meditation is all about You try to calm yourself, you try to breathe, and your mind wanders, and then you gently bring your mind back, and then your mind wanders, and you gently bring it back, and your mind wanders, you gently bring it back. You might sit for a 5-minute meditation and your mind wandered like 25 times. At least mine does. What the idea of this conscious leadership is, is they call it above the line thinking and below the line thinking. To understand that you as a human being— so above the line is creativity and excitement and big thinking and vision, and below the line is fear, dread, anxiety, just really grinding it out trying to figure things out. We as human beings are just like we are designed to keep falling out of listening to your breath, We are designed to go below the line more than we are above the line. So, because it's safer, right? So, you think about being a caveman, is it safer for you to be thinking big vision or for you to be like, "Oh, geez, I better be safe when I walk out of this cave." Unfortunately, in today's world, there's so much overstimulation that you can just fry yourself out by staying in that fear, anxiety world. What has been a huge game changer for me and very recently is to understand that that is actually just a state. And if I can just remind myself, just like I do when I'm meditating to say, oh, go back to the breath. If I can just realize that that is just a state that can just be changed by just saying, oh geez, I'm below 1. Let me stand up, let me walk around, let me do whatever to change how I'm thinking. That has been an incredible, incredible change. And that's when I would say that's, that's number 2. And the third one, and I learned this, this now in my second business. My first business, I was the 80-hour-a-week, work-my-butt-off entrepreneur, first one in the office, last one to leave, got to set the pace. And this one, a few things happened. One, my first business didn't work out the way I wanted to. Two, my first daughter was born. And I was like, I don't want to live like this. Like, I don't want to be the last guy here. You know what I want to do? I want to go home and be with my kids. And if that means the business grows slower, or if that means I need to hire more people to build a team around me, like, I'm going to live the life I want to live. And most people, when they think about starting a company, they don't think about lifestyle design. They think about, you know, how do I go raise money? Or how do I like get this thing off the ground? Or how do I grind it out for 2 years, and then I'll take a vacation? Rather than being like, okay, let's just start with like, what do you want out of life? Like, what do you— where do you want to live? What do you want to do? Do you want this to be like a full-time thing? I have people write There's a book by Cameron Herald, but it's called "The Vivid Vision," which is essentially— Oh, yeah.

Cameron used to coach me. I like Cameron.

Yeah. He's part of that Genius Network too, I've heard. So, 3 years from now, what does the world look like? You walk into work, what does it smell like? What did you eat on the way to work? Did you have a workout? Did you not have a workout? Did you walk to work? Did you drive to work?

Did you bike to work?

Did you take the bus to work? Okay, you walk into your office. Do people say hello? Do you go to the back? Are there lots of people? Are there no one? Like, write it out. Creative writing exercise. What do you want? And what I found is that that tends to come true in many ways. Like, you set your intention of what you want in the world and then, you know, stars align and you're able to kind of put the pieces together. So what usually, if I meet people who are like, "Oh, how'd you do it? What did you do?" I start by telling them things like that, which are very internal, very like, okay, what do you, you know, what's the big picture? And generally that frustrates people because what they want is some sort of answer like, oh, here's how you hack Kickstarter to do what you want. And then you can do this other thing and then go raise money from this person. That stuff is like easy. That's the easy part. You know, like figuring out how to start an LLC and get insurance and, you know, that to me, that's just You can go on the internet and find that stuff. What I found is the most successful people are the ones that know what impact they want to have in the world and the life that they want to lead. And then they just spend their time trying to work their day around doing that, not doing all the other stuff. That's not to say there's not times that I'm up super late working and grinding out, trying to figure something out. It's a game of percentages, right? It's how do I want— being intentional about the life I want to live is incredibly important. So those are the 3.

Beautiful, beautiful answers. I appreciate it, Mike. If you've enjoyed today's episode, you really owe it to yourself to do what I Dave Asprey recommended earlier, try eating grass-fed only for a couple of weeks to a month. You can go to butcherbox.com/bulletproof. Use the Bulletproof code, save $20, get free bacon and hopefully free bacon for life if you do it while they still have that offer up and running. And more than that, just pay attention to the effect that the food you choose to put in your body has on the planet around you. There is so much evidence for the fact that Mother Nature needs a variety of animals out there helping to keep our soil healthy because our soil is disappearing at an alarming rate. We've allowed companies to spray poisons on the soil that disrupts soil bacteria in a meaningful way. It's unleashed toxic mold in soil at levels that hasn't been seen before. And we've got to fix this and we've got to fix this because soil sequesters carbon. And because without soil, we have very large problems with our own survival as a species and as well as all these other animals that we all care about. So you owe it to yourself, you owe it to the planet to pay attention to that. And I would totally, totally say don't just have a grass-fed steak once this week, just say short period of time, grass-fed or nothing. And when you do that, you will notice changes in your biology, in your brain, and it's totally worth it. So, go to butcherbox.com/bulletproof. Use the Bulletproof code, save a little bit of money, but more importantly, get meat that's worth eating.

The Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider, carefully read all labels, and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own, and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.