AI Idea Starters, B2B Influencers, & Organic LinkedIn Tactics with Dave Gerhardt - Ep 31

Let's lead with that. Incredible. And what do you mean a safe place? Like, Dave's been in these, like, really acrimonious interviews. Like, like Leslie Stahl was grilling him on, you know, what's going on in the world of marketing.

Well, listen, you don't get to where Dave's gotten to without somebody, you know, just nailing you with some tough questions. I was just going to say I'm, I was letting Dave know that he's in a safe space because I'm a giant fan of his work, both, both adrift and with Exit 5. And so I was just trying to prime him for that because I know he and I don't know each other all that well. So, yeah, he's, he's great and I'm thrilled to have him on the show.

Thank you. That's super kind of you. I've had people come on my podcast and I, I kind of say a similar thing. I don't tell them all that. I, I love them in the way that you told me. Thank you.

But I love you.

Thank you. I love you too. I love you too. In all seriousness, I, I, I do feel like some people when they go on interviews, they're in this like, kind of like interview mode. And like, I, I have to tell people, like, look, I'm not trying to, there's no gotchas in my, I'm not trying to get you on anything. I'm trying to have a conversation with you. And so I think saying something like that is like, okay, this is nice. It'll be a free flowing conversation. Because I hate, I hate when I have somebody come on my podcast and it's like they're in interview mode and it's like I ask Craig a question and he answers it and then he's like, just wait, next question. It's like, no discussion is, is better. So. I appreciate that.

Boom. In your face, Craig.

Yeah, take that bow.

From ABM to plg, from medic to med pick, the world of business is constantly evolving. We'll cover the who, what, where, when, why, and most importantly, how you get the transaction. I'm Matt Amundson and he's Craig Rosenberg. Let's get started.

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, and what I really liked about starting that at that point was Matt moved essentially the loving intro up front. I appreciate that. So, full announcement. Dave Gerhardt, welcome to the transaction. By the way, I had your book so on on my shelf and meant to read it. You know how this goes. We had Adam Robinson on The show.

Yeah.

Like, you know, that guy's just been destroying with the founder brand thing.

Sure.

And like, Matt and I had to go back to the transcripts because he had mentioned these things that were like, part of his, like, how he figured this thing out. He's like, oh, and you got to read founder brand. I'm like, oh, my God, it's right here. I read it in one plane flight.

Yeah. I mean, it's like a blog post.

It was so good. I mean, you know that, right? That was a great.

Thank you. Yeah. Adam's become. Adam's become this huge advocate and he's literally huge. He's in. If you've never met him in person, he's like three. If you stack three of me on. On stools, I would maybe be able to. To dunk on Adam. But he's been advocating this founder brand thing. And like, I. I wrote the book and I just kind of wanted to put something down and I really just wanted to try to write a book. And so it was like more of just like a personal project. I didn't have any big expectations for it. Then a couple people, like, Adam is one who've just like taken on. And I think it's like anything in marketing or business. It's like once you name it, it becomes so much easier to spread. And so I think founders have been doing this type of marketing forever. But then we started calling it founder brand. And Adam was the first one that I really was saw advocating, like, you got to do this founder brand thing. You got to do this. And he's just, he's next level. I don't know if he, he comes up the most insane hooks for his content. It'll be like, it'll lead you to like, sign up for some webinar. And he's like, so the other day a hundred thousand pound tree fell on me and I was alone in the forest and. But guess what? You'll never guess. And I didn't have any tools or knives or anybody to help me. And I had no cell phone service, but guess what? I did. And then he like, leads into this, like, amazing hook for like, sign up for his webinar. He's so sure you can write the book. And I'm just giving Adam some shit because I know him and he's great, but he has that sauce. Like, he has that, like, love him or hate him, he has the thing that was like the premise of founder brand. It's like, oh, we're looking for so many ways to differentiate our companies. And I'm like, the founder can be one because usually the founder is some crazy person who started this company, you know, out of some passion or some, you know, prior success or some failure. And so they naturally have all these stories. They're oftentimes like their personalities can be all over the place because you got to be a little bit crazy to go start a company and be an entrepreneur. And so those ingredients, then you have. Adam is like a natural storyteller. He's, he's perfect at it. I, I don't think anybody could just pick it up and do that, but he's kind of put his own POV on there and that's why it's working. It's pretty cool.

It's amazing. I've been, I know we should start the interview in a sec, but so I've been, you know, I'm doing, I'm at Scale Venture Partners, primarily Series A, but even with everyone, I've been saying, you know, you gotta read founder, brand. You said, well, look, I put a name on something that the founders are doing already, but there's a rubric for how you tell your story. Yeah, there's a way to think about, you know, what you could do with this thing inside of you. They all have the story inside of now can they execute like Adam now, man.

I'll give you an example of a founder friend of mine is about to announce a new company and he asked me to just give some advice on, you know, launch strategy and everything. And I said yes because I think he's great. And it's also fun to just. My business is so different now. It's fun to get back in the weeds a little bit. And so I'm watching him and he's working with a PR team and they're trying to do this announcement and very well known founder, super successful, has a bunch of hits, raised money from top VCs. None of the press cares to write about him because it's another AI startup and there's already been a hundred of them. And, and so I'm like, who cares? Who. Honestly, who cares? What does it matter? What is an article in TechCrunch matter? What does that matter? Because you have a following on LinkedIn. He's been posting like a bunch of teasers, like about launching his company and they've all been going like nuts, like seven, 800 likes, you know, hundreds of comments. And I'm like, when you, the launch strategy is literally going to be, you're going to go to LinkedIn and you're going to say we're now open, right? Like, you're going to write your post on LinkedIn. You're going to drive that to your website and that is going to drive quite literally thousands of people relevant to you in your niche to your website on the day of you launch. I know why we want the vanity of the TechCrunch, but I can guarantee that the TechCrunch article isn't going to drive traffic like that would. And so that's why you do this. And so now he has that brand. And so, like, it's why we've been able to build exit 5. It's like if you can build an audience online and go direct to your audience, like that is the goal. I'm not saying don't get press. I love marketing. I think marketing is a game of perception. I think press absolutely matters and it looks nice to have that headline and send it around, but come on, if you have a direct relationship of your audience, you launch something new, you send an email to your list and you post about it. There's nothing more powerful than having that. And so that is like what founder brand is now. Founders are like, well, I don't want to do that. I don't want to be out there. I don't want to be in front of it. Okay, then that's fine. Then that means you just have to go and look at the other like 15 marketing tactics. It's just, it's one strategy I think you can choose to try to try to build.

Yeah, I love it, by the way. Fun fact. Then I promise I'll ask the big question, Matt.

No, no, it's okay. He's like, he's already going.

Yeah.

Just so you know, Dave, it's very important.

I could just be sitting here going.

Thank you for. We'll send you the check. No, but Matt, it is important to Matt that planes get landed on the show. That's true. Certain things that we're supposed to get done, we have to get that. But per your point, we have a company, bland AI. I don't know if you've seen them. They do voice AI. So they were not getting picked up on the press for their series A announcement. But it was funny because they have this young growth hacker marketing lead. Michael Guy's amazing. He just kind of. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna, I have this launch plan I'm gonna do. Dude, they launched via video and social. He did it just like consumer marketers did. He reached out to the influencers. He played this game. So well, they have over 7.2 million views on Twitter or X or whatever.

Yeah, it's amazing.

Yeah, amazing.

Yeah, that's. Guess what? That's how I found out about their announcement. I work with them. It was in my feed because one of these guys that, you know, big, big influencer type wrote, this was funny. He wrote, we're all effed, right? So good. Now I'm like, what a retweet.

I love that. I love the non traditional stuff. It's great.

All right, so here's the big question that we start every show with plain about to land, Matt, is, you know, what is something or some things that the market thinks are doing right? It could be approach best practices, tactic, tactics, methodologies, et cetera. They're actually wrong and they should be doing something different. You know, what is it? And what should they go do about it? All right, now, we will nod our heads the rest of the time. Please take it away, Dave.

All right, I just had to jot down some notes. I'm not always great on the spot, but I can. If I, you know, it's like dance monkey. What. What kind of joke do you have?

Say something funny.

Isn't it funny? Actually, this is like the. The thing. Like, I think my strength in marketing is like, creativity and storytelling and writing, and I would hate to be in meetings when they'd be like, bring David in this meeting. Dave, Dave, what do you got? What do you got? I' like, the process doesn't work like that. Like, I'll. I might have it like tonight on a run or in the shower, I think. So maybe there's. We can see how much you want to talk about, but I think AI is the big one for me, and I don't have any, like, new hot takes. Like, I hate to come on your podcast and be like, AI, but I see a lot of marketers that kind of roll their eyes at it, right? Rightfully so. I think there is some. Like, this kind of sucks, like, to. To the point about the. You just mentioned, like, the guy saying we're all aft. Like, it kind of sucks. Like, content used to be such a thing is now all this content going to be, like, generated by a machine? And like, even if. Even if it's good, even if it's good, I think there's something as humans where, like, if the sales. If the email was sent from a human, a human genuinely crafted that and like, that got open, that got the meeting, that feels a little bit better. There's just something like, we. We created that and so I think a lot of people are caught up in the content and they're like, this sucks and so I don't want to like it. And then they go on. The fact that, you know, ChatGPT or any of these copywriting tools, like everybody thinks AI for marketing is like the, the writing side, they think of it as like a way to generate content at scale. And yeah, you're going to get a bunch of shitty blog posts like from ChatGPT if that's all you do. But on the other side, I see so many things that are going to be possible for the role of a marketer. And I think of like myself as a full stack marketer where, where I've always kind of done a little bit of everything. Like I could get a website going, get a landing page going, video done, ads, like I can do all that stuff. I'm not the most technical person, but I can do that. Now picture a world where I can generate scripts. I could use like something like hey Jen. To make a video avatar and a, I could make a product demo. I could, I could fix a landing page on, on my own. Danielle, on our team at Exit 5 the other day, she, she was like, oh, I was stuck, I don't really know css and I was trying to mess around with the formatting on this like website page. So I went to ChatGPT, I asked it to tell me I got the code from ChatGPT and I pasted into the landing page builder. It's like things like that, that I think we're sleeping on. It's not the, like, is this going to replace my job? Right, shitty content thing. It's like the workflows, the tools, the technology. I was on a call yesterday with a friend of mine who was like a head of Rev Ops and he was like, what's possible because of AI in like the marketing ops stack and like data analysis, that whole world. I think those things are all super positive. And so I think that's something that I think everybody's like, oh, AI, whatever. I just think they're thinking about it wrong. I see it as like the next wave of technology that you're going to, that's going to, you know, sit side by side with you as a marketer. Just like back in the day they didn't have the tools that we have now. It's just going to be one of those new, new pieces of, you know, things that work alongside us. And so I'm super excited about it.

Matt, your reaction?

You guys are supposed to say something.

Yeah, I know. Well, sometimes we look at each other. Well, I'm not sure he's looking at me by the way, Dave, because of the video, but not me. Or was I looking at you?

I mean, I try to look at both of you guys at the same time. You use both eyes. But I'd say, I mean, listen, it's not controversial to say like I agree with Dave here. I mean the reality is it's like, I think a lot of people have poo pooed, Chat GPT or AI in general just because like, you know, it's very easy to understand like, or very easy to perceive. I should say what is being written by AI and what is not. But I think to Dave's point, it's the idea that like you're going to get assistance in other workflows, you're going to get assistance in building. It's not just the copy that you're putting out. And I think if you are trying to use AI to write the copy for you, you're probably in a rough spot. Now that's not to say that you can't use it to get ideas started because sometimes the best way to start ideas is to say, hey, I'd like to, you know, I'd like to write a white paper on this topic. Like give me a couple controversial takes, that stuff works really well. Or you know, hey, I really like this article. Can you pull out the three best things about it? That's a good way to get things started. But you know, as an end to end solution for copywriting, it's, it's not great but I think your use cases.

Your use cases, that, that's actually been my number one. I don't really often use the content that comes from it, but I use it a lot as like writing partner. Especially when I'm talking about something that I might not have deep expertise in or I can't generate topics easily. And so I'll be like, hey, you know how in, you know, I'm just thinking about marketing, like, you know how in cyber security this thing happens and this thing happens. Well, what would be the reasons for that? And I could use Chat GP to then do the research and explain to me a topic that I'm not an expert and I'm like, oh, interesting. Okay, now if I'm writing an article for a cyber security company, I can have this amazing research partner. Like I know I'm a good writer, I know I'm a good storyteller, but I might not have the deep subject Matter expertise of that industry. That's a perfect use case that I think a lot of marketers can, can take.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, look, I, we have a lot, you know that this gets brought up a lot on the show and like when you know, we're talking to go to market folks. So I get like there's a whole bunch of people out there who are not resistant but you know, it's. And I don't know about like full negativity but like, you know, folks are saying like it's an A, it's an or, which is like, well, you know, now we're going to be uniquely human and that's going to be the differentiator versus all the AI products that are going to produce all this, you know, content, etc. And, and that shouldn't be an or. Like that's an ant. That's how you, that's frankly, by using those tools you can be even more. You have the speed and the tools at your fingertips to be more uniquely human.

Absolutely. And think of the use cases as a marketer, like that's what I think of or somebody in sales or inside of a company. It's like, hey, take me, get a list of all the customer, all the new customers that we've won over the last 90 days. Take all the transcripts from those calls, take all the notes from the reps in the CRM. Take all the marketing activity. Right. And help me come find some trends and summarize know how these people are finding us. Like, boom, there you go. You have a one pager of something to give you an, you know, insight into your strategy. Or like we take all the churn, all the reasons people churn from exit 5. We just use chat gbt to summarize that data every month and it's like it's just saved us three hours right there. We got the, we got the report. It's stuff like that. We're not wasting time on, on silly things anymore.

You know, it's really interesting you guys. We did like a quick survey. We do these things called Councils Dave in the portfolio where it's like we'll have. Actually Matt helped start them. We have demand gen folks, we have product marketing, we have sdr, we have Rev Ops and we polled them about their use of AI and I assume that rev Ops and SDR would be significantly more aggressive. But actually product marketing was really the number one sort of AI user. But here's the thing, it was like 70% of those product marketers, well, roughly like call it 68%. It was all individuals using it in an ad hoc manner. And then overall if you put all the different functions together in the polling, it was like 58, 59% of everyone was. Individuals are using it in an ad hoc matter manner. We saw less of department wide formalized AI. Even the use cases we're talking about today, what we're seeing is this new AI power user being really good. And we'll continue to see that, at least now as people get used to it. I think when people ask me what's like the gateway drug, I'm like, dude, just go use ChatGPT or whatever and just start to play with it in terms of some of the things you do. But I, I don't know about you guys. I was surprised that product marketing had the highest sort of usage. I wasn't surprised that it was all ad hoc stuff. But it's exactly the use cases Dave has brought up here.

Yeah, they're just, they're just plagiarizing all the copy and putting it on the website. It's fine.

Yeah, come on now. I mean, we talked about it. It's like market research, you know, some of the things that they need to go do. In the past, I mean, I've been doing like initial takes on buyer Personas for folks just using perplexity and whatnot. It's just been fast.

Yeah, I mean you could, you could be like, hey, we sell to. It's like a thought. It could be a thought partner right. In. In like Personas and research. It's like, hey, we sell to Fortune 1000 CFOs. What are the. What are the. Some of the. Take me inside the mind of a fortune, you know, 500 CFO. What are the. Some of the things they care about? And that, that's not to take that verbatim, but it's like, oh, interesting. Now I got some things going. Okay, all right, cool. So maybe we could. Oh yeah, we hear this topic a lot. Number three. All right, let's start writing about that. Like it's such an idea starter. Like you should never. You, you can really have writer's block anymore because you kind of always have always something to get to get going.

I love that Use case idea starter. I love that. Actually, Matt's was telling me about the sales team at his last gig. You know, they were using one of the AI tools.

Right.

And you're saying, how do I sell to this company and this guy at this company? And it was coming with ideas. Yeah, prep. That's A very specific question for prep. Yeah, that's amazing that we can get that. And it's. As an idea starter, I love that.

Yeah, I mean, you know, you can do great things with it. You can write custom GPTs so that it understands your brand and it understands the products that you sell. And so you can just, you know, once you build that for your sales team, the sales team can utilize it to say things like, hey, I'm a about to sell to Dave Geart. You know, his company looks like this. Can you tell me, you know, what are, what are some of the most important things to a business at that stage, in that region, in that vertical, etc. Etc. And it can just, you know, it just gives you a head start.

It's just a. It's a. We're going. Matt, we're going with idea starter that's created here and we're going with that. Dave, I have one that I want to lead you with, but before I do that, any others on, on your list topics where we should be thinking differently?

Yeah, I'll give you, I'll give you two more. I can do quicker ones of these. So one of them is influencers. I think that, I think that there's a big potential for B2B companies to work with influencers. And there's a couple of things in there. Number one, the reason why is because the economics actually are way better in B2B. Because if I work with a, you know, consumer influencer, I start a golf brand and I sell hats and hoodies and shirts, right? I got to sell a lot of damn product through that influencer to try to make the money back, right? Vers in B2B just using like a. It's a kind of a similar thing, but like one of our sponsors from Exit 5, they got, they did a big sponsorship with us. They got nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. This is not working. This is not working. Oh, 150k dream account closed. They're like, can we do more with you? Right? And so you just need one customer. And there's also other reasons to do it beyond customers. And then I also think what's interesting about B2B is people think about it wrong. They often will try to go find people that have, you know, massive followings and they're like, well, who in finance has a massive following? Okay, a couple things that. That person is going to be way expensive. It's not going to make sense for you to post content with them. Right. The other thing is they've probably already Done a bunch of stuff already, so it's not new or unique. I like the idea of. So this, this woman, Natalie Taylor, she runs marketing at Capsule. They're like a enterprise video AI editor. They did a launch and she said, I'm going to take 10 grand, I'm going to find 10, like micro influencers, like people who talk about marketing and talk about video, but have like 3 to 5,000 followers on LinkedIn, which is a lot of people. And I'm going to pay them each 500 to do a post for launch. And so you end up spend, you spend ten grand, you get this micro influencer campaign. You have all these people spreading your word. I think that's a cool example that I've been talking about a lot because I think more people are starting to come onto that. It's why we get sponsors for Exit 5. But I think anybody that's talking about a topic online, we go to social media like LinkedIn and we write about marketing and sales. Find those people. But then people listen to say, well, how do I find those people? Is there like a database? No, you have to be there participating, watching the space getting really close. Then you can know, okay, here's the 10 people that I think will be good. I see a lot of people asking for some magic database of influencers. They're going to give you all the big ones anyway. You need to like pay attention to your space, see who's posting and then reach out and then just LinkedIn. So influencers are one in LinkedIn in general, I think I would be, I think the old school, the old PR strategy of just pitching and trying to get press and trying to get people to write about you is, is doesn't work the same way as it used to. I would be laser focused on trying to build our own audience through the fa, through the founders page and the key employees pages, not the company page. Talking about what we're doing every day. It's not a new strategy, but I would just stop trying to set a goal around it for let's see what results this produces in three months and just like commit to like, we're going to go to the gym for a year and we're going to measure progress in a year and we're going to all write and share and as you go, you start to understand how to measure it, you start to understand how to think about it differently. But if you obsessed with measurement and success of it out of the gate, you're never going to get going. So AI influencers and LinkedIn all right.

Let'S talk influencers for one sec. I like this one. So I love what you said. You got to do the work and you got to be there to see who these folks are that I, I get this is, you know, you want to create your list of the people that, you know, move your market or move your function or wherever. And then so you, you gave that example. So they, they paid. Like, if you were giving other advice on how you approach the influencers, what would you say to that?

Say, hello, my name is Dave. Can we pay you? I would say, hey, Craig. I would say, hey, Craig, I've seen you, you know, you. I've been following you for a little bit now, and I see that you always post about SEO. I work for XYZ SEO company. We're launching a new product in a couple weeks and we'd love to have you be a part of that launch. We're interested in working with you on a partnership where you would, you would try out our product or, or learn about it and write about it. And we would pay you to post that on LinkedIn on this certain date. If this is something you'd be interested in, let me know. You can, you could literally, you know what you could do if somebody's listening? You could take out ChatGPT on your phone. You could hold it up to the speaker, play it on your computer. You could, you could take exactly what I said. ChatGPT will listen to it, transcribe it, and then you can say, generate me three versions of that email based on Dave's script to make it better. So you could also. So little. There's a little a fun build on that. So I would say that. And then the key here, though, is the offer. So what you have them post really matters. And so if you line up a bunch of people, if you line up a influencer and you're like, we're gonna.

Have them.

Post our blog post. Not great, right? What Natalie didn't capsule did was she had each one of them make a video using their product and talk about why they think, why they believe in, you know, why they're bullish on video marketing or something, right? You can come up with a topic that's like, related so that they're going to write about it in their own way. And then you have to have an offer in that. It should be like, I did one, one with a company when they launched a new product. It was like, sign up now it's free. You know, this is a free tool. You can use on your website right now. Right. Or we're working right now with this company called Planful, and their sponsored content is they're driving everybody to a resource that they wrote on how to build your marketing plan. And that's perfect for this time of year because people are trying to build their budgets and do planning for marketing right now. And so if they work with influencers to promote that, they're now widening the reach of that. I think you really got to think about what is the thing? Like the. What is that audience's. What is that influencer's audience? What do they want? And how can you know that and try to. Hey, we. We know they love cheese pizza. Where. How do we serve up our version of cheese pizza that day? So they're gonna go. Actually want to go try it. I think a lot of people don't think through all of the steps. It's like, we got influencers. They're gonna post about it. Okay. But you. Then you got to put yourself in the audience's shoes. It's like, what's in it for me? Am I really going to click on this? Do I have to put on my credit card? You know, all of the things. I think you got to think about the full funnel of that campaign. And that thing, that last thing I just mentioned is true for all of marketing. It's why people in B2B think webinars stink or are boring is because they don't think about the actual offer, the delivery. It matters so much.

Yeah, I, I totally. I love that. I. You know, we had a guy on Mack Redden. I don't know if you've seen this guy.

Yeah, he was just at. He came from Denmark to Vermont for our first annual event. Yeah, we just, we just hung out with him. He's a great guy.

Yeah, similar play. He didn't have to pay, but, you know, he went to, you know, he used a consumer like, influencer strategy. We talked about a lot. I mean, he's done a lot of really creative things, but, you know, was able to sort of loop influencers in and, you know, have them go help amplify them on LinkedIn where. Where he's definitely sort of locked in, which is your number three on. Number three on LinkedIn. So we've been big on this here because we've seen it. I mean, Adam Robinson is a great example, but we've seen lots of examples where, frankly, I'm not surprised you brought up LinkedIn as number three, because if you took founder brand methodology from the book and Linked. I mean, this is where this, these things come together, right? You take this, this sort of founder brand play and you gotta. I'm not gonna dominate on LinkedIn. I mean, I tell people, I make it really hyperbolic when I talk to people about it. But like, if you're, you know, the likelihood of your market being on LinkedIn is high. If it's not, I get it, we can go do something else. But if it is, like, we gotta take this founder, brand, founder Persona and start to really work it on LinkedIn. And so I'm, I'm not surprised you brought it up.

But like, I like how you said that, by the way, people like the way you answer that is such a pro. Like, nonchalantly, like, yeah, if your audience isn't there, then we'll do something else. I think.

Yeah.

I often when I talk about LinkedIn, there's always, you know, one out of 50 comments. Well, all right. Hey, hey, bald, hey, bald tech bro, man, like, our audience isn't on LinkedIn. I like, I'm just gonna answer like you did next time. It's like, okay, then do something else. Like, Mark, it's just like this set of decisions, like, where are we gonna play? Like, what are we gonna do? Where are we gonna play? Okay, if your audience isn't there, but to, there's, I think there's like a billion users or something like that. So they probably are on, on LinkedIn for sure. I think the, this, this. If I like zoomed all the way out the Met, the bigger category for me is I just think social media is the way marketing happens in our lives today. Everything is social media, right? It's all the content we get as people is from X, LinkedIn, Twitter, maybe you're on Facebook, maybe on YouTube. Right? Just because we're in B2B doesn't mean that changes. You just have to change the approach and, like, think about what people care about in that world. And so I think for a lot of B2B SaaS companies, for whatever reason, social media is not treated like the main. To me, it's always the main marketing channel. I think social media is always like, well, we, we hired a social media intern to like post Updates on our LinkedIn company page when like, what I want to grab the screen and what I'm trying to say with you all now is like, no, this is the marketing strategy. It's not like, oh, this little social media thing. We're going to post these cute updates about our company. No, like, this is the way I would do marketing at a, you know, series A, series B type of company. It's social media marketing. You just got to figure out what works in your industry.

Yeah, yeah. I think the old playbook was that is that social media was the sort of amplification of everything else that you were doing. And I think what you're advocating for now is, like, that's where it starts. And you can use other channels to amplify that, but, like, where the real meat is, is in social media.