Beyond the SaaS Playbook: How Non-SaaS Teams Drive Pipeline with Sandra Rand

In a lot of SaaS environments, you're also working really closely with sales, but you need to be embedded in those sales conversations and understand the customer language even more so because it's more manual than maybe a PLG motion.

On this episode of the Exit 5 podcast, I'm speaking with Sandra Rand. Sandra is a fractional marketing leader who typically works with Companies anywhere from 0 to 20 million who are really trying to get their marketing function off the ground and typically works with with companies who are not SaaS companies, which is the topic of this episode. We are talking about the biggest differences between SaaS and non SaaS marketing.

I think a lot of non SaaS companies are more events forward. I think they're a little bit more ecosystem led or more. We don't have that plg. We don't have demos or freemium models to rely on to funnel traffic to. It really requires being in absolute lockstep with sales.

Sandra has recently become an ambassador of Exit 5, specifically in our non stash subgroup, and she's hosting these meetups every single month with members and she's talking about some of the biggest things that she's learned from these non SaaS marketers meetups. So we're going to talk about them and demystify some of the things in this episode.

1, 2, 3, 4, exit.

Cool. I'm here with Sandra. Sandra, how's it going?

Hey, doing well. How are you?

Good, good. So I want to set the stage for this episode and then I'll let you talk about a bit about who you are and what you do. But I've noticed that, you know, over the years with Exit 5, we have unintentionally talked about B2B marketing, typically from a SaaS perspective. We haven't come out and said it, but, you know, a lot of our background, like myself, Dave, Dan, the rest of the team is in SaaS. So, you know, a lot of the connections we've built are in SaaS and a lot of the things we know are related to SaaS. And, you know, we've had a lot of, like, guests at our events and stuff that have come from the SaaS world. And I think that when it comes to, like, LinkedIn building audiences online, it's a lot of the people who are in B2B SAs that are doing that. So it's really easy to, you know, pick them out and say, I want you to speak at my event or I want you to my podcast, because they're the loudest in the B2B marketing room. But Then I noticed, maybe this is a couple months ago now, there was a small little portion of our community meeting once a month calling themselves Non SaaS, the Non SaaS Marketers. And it was a meetup that was happening on the last Friday of every month and it was being hosted by you. And I was like, oh shit, we're kind of ignoring unintentionally this part of our community. So, you know, you and I had talked and we decided, hey, why don't we create a space in the community? Why don't we make this an Exit 5 thing instead of making you go outside of the platform and we'll have this thing every month called the Non SaaS Marketers Meetup. And you know, it's something you still host and you're doing a great job at it. And anyways, I wanted to take the time today to kind of talk about each other, know the differences between non SaaS and SaaS, what you're seeing in some of your own work, and maybe we can talk about some of the things that, you know, you've learned from the monthly meetups that we've done so far with members.

Yeah, sounds good. And I'll just start by saying, like, we did not feel slighted by Exit 5, by the way. Like we didn't just sort of come together and be like, man, there's no space for us. Truly, honestly, like even before this started coming together at the beginning of the year, it's something that I, as a sort of more traditionally non SaaS B2B marketer, have felt for years. Right. I think you hit the nail on the head where some of the well known playbooks, the louder voices tend to come from that segment. And that's okay. I have always felt for the last, especially the last several years, as you know, posting on LinkedIn, people building their personal brand, more and more of those voices were coming into sort of the ecosystem. And I kept looking around like, where are my people? Like where are the people that are coming from the sort of non traditional B2B backgrounds that are not tech and not SaaS. And I'll just sort of aside by saying, like, there are plenty of tech companies that are not SaaS. So those are a little bit, there's a delineation there. And so it was really lovely to come across a post or two from a bunch of other voices in Exit 5, say, like anyone else kind of in this, in this boat. And I sort of knew like, hey, we're going to have to carve out this space for ourselves because because there isn't like a thought leader that's like, you know, running the charge for non SaaS voices. The reality is though, it's really, there isn't one. You know, there isn't like a SaaS playbook as far as marketing goes and then a non SaaS playbook like non SaaS that covers a whole. That's the long tail of B2B marketing. So there's a whole lot of different playbooks and different approaches. Definitely not one size fits all. And so I think what we're trying to get out of this space face in chatting with each other is just folks that are like minded because we have different challenges. Right. So for example, you know, the, the volume of deals that we need. Historically in my career I have not needed to seek hundreds of conversions per month. I think my sales team wouldn't know what to do with thousands of leads in a month. Like that's just not a world that I come from. And when I started to say that out loud in certain rooms, at events and in certain forums, there were other people sort of nodding me like, oh, same like we, we need eight good deals this year to, to meet our revenue goals. So, so that felt nice to start, start to like find my peers and find those folks in the space. I'm also noticing that as this, there's a lot of voices coming to the table with this sort of brand versus performance or brand versus demand. Like you know, long term brand building versus immediate, like quarterly pipeline goal like that. That discussion is happening a lot right now and I'm finding that it's more of the non SaaS pedigreed folks that are fighting this like brand point of view versus like operating off of this quarterly demand playbook that our SaaS peers have been operating against. So, so that's been nice. It's been easier to find those folks and those hand raisers. So yeah. But thank you. It's been great to recognize that we are a small but growing segment and to give us a place to come together and just sort of operate like we're all B2B marketers and that's the ethos of Exit 5. We just need to sort of flex our non SaaS muscle a little bit more and find others.

So that's it? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's funny like non SaaS is not actually a thing because there are more things that are not SaaS than are.

Totally. I would agree with that statement. Yeah. Yep, it's funny. But, but like you, you sit there and like, if, honestly. And again, like going back the last three or four years, it's like, well, this isn't my playbook, but I guess I'll take what I can get from it and reinterpret it. That. And so it's nice to be able to recognize one, like, thank God for SaaS, B2B thought leaders, because you're giving us sort of a North Star to pull from. But also like, yeah, it's a little bit trickier for those of us that are not in that ecosystem because it's not like an A to A or apples to apples, you know, application of the same kind of tools and goals and things of that nature.

For sure. Yeah.

Exciting.

Cool. Love it. Awesome. Great background. I want to touch on one thing that you said in that intro is talking about, you know, these companies typically don't have VC money pouring in. So do you see that they usually have smaller budgets or is it just different overall? What does that look like usually?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's different. I can only speak for, like we said, this is the long tail, right, of B2B companies that, that aren't SaaS. But I think as far as my experience goes, there are smaller budgets that we're working with and there's smaller margins if we're not. If we're not operating with a SaaS background or offering that to the market. Our human capital is what we're offering as far as value goes in a lot of ways, right? Not always. And so humans are expensive and so our margins are different than our SaaS peers. And because of that, I do think that the marketing budgets that I've worked with, I've had a large range of marketing budgets into the millions as well, but those are tougher to come by, but more so, it's just a range. You can go into a non SaaS environment and likely you'll find that the budgets are a little bit more conservative and you sort of have to earn that buffer as you grow and as you scale and as your brand grows. So, yeah, I mean, it always pays to be scrappy, but I think especially so in the non SaaS environment, you're going to have to do a lot with a little. I think in this environment, in this economy right now, everyone's kind of holding their feet to that fire, unfortunately, to earn that buffer as you grow and as you scale and as your brand grows. So, yeah, I mean, it always pays to be scrappy, but I think especially so in the non SaaS environment, you're going to have to do a lot with a little. I think in this environment, in this economy right now, everyone's kind of holding their feet to that fire. Unfortunately, I don't think that's anything new for those of us that have not been in a SaaS environment.

Yeah, true. I felt that. Cool. So. So non SaaS versus SaaS. How do you define the difference? How do you think about the difference between those two things from a, I guess a marketing perspective or just overall?

Yeah, I think, you know, when I come into an organization that I'm working with, and like I said, there's a lot of companies that either have dabbled in marketing, random acts of marketing, or really they're just starting from scratch, the one thing that tends to hold true is that sales is going to be my best friend. Now, this is not exclusive to. Not to SaaS or, sorry, not exclusive to non SaaS. I think in a lot of SaaS environments, you're also working really closely with sales, but you need to be embedded in those sales conversations and understand the customer language even more so because it's more manual than maybe a PLG motion and requires much more active and consistent alignment. I think a lot of non SaaS companies are more events forward. I think they're a little bit more ecosystem led or more, you know, we don't have that plg. We don't have demos or freemium models to rely on to funnel traffic to. It really requires being in absolute lockstep with sales, which again, like I said, is not exclusive to non, non SaaS. But it's definitely a hallmark that most of us, you know, that's the first order of business, is making those folks your best friend.

Right, right. Okay, that makes sense. And, and with that, it's, I'm guessing, a lot of sales enablement, a lot of product marketing overall. Right. Because it's like you need to. It's really about enabling them to go do their job. And like, the same is true in B2B marketing overall. But there are different motions where it's like marketing first and sales second.

Yeah. And I think like to some degree too, it's. Yes, there's a lot of sales enablement. Right. And making sure that you're not just seen as. You're not just seen as, you know, the team that makes the case studies and the team that makes the one pagers, but really making sure that just as you, you know, any B2B marketer is responsible for driving pipeline especially, I think that it's really necessary for you to acknowledge that the sales team, those cycles tend to be a little bit longer in a lot of instances. So because of that, like, how is marketing continuing to assist in the nurturing of those accounts of those companies that are in your pipeline? Because those are going to be a little bit of a longer sales cycle. So our handoff might be much earlier in, in terms of that conversion might not come for another nine to 12 months, depending on. On what that looks like. And so that's kind of the difference there for me.

So one thing I wanted to ask is, you know, I feel like the playbook in B2B marketing is the same a lot of the time. You know, a handful of years ago, we learned from the same couple of people, like the power of, you know, creating a podcast or some kind of video series and using that content to create a newsletter and then, you know, putting those clips all over social media and kind of using that to build this content engine which helps you build brand and drive inbound. And I've seen a lot of people try and run that playbook and pitch that playbook as a way to do marketing in their company. But from your perspective, you know, should I know again, I know non SaaS is like huge, so it's kind of ridiculous for me to say non SaaS. But from your perspective, like, is it different in non SaaS? Like, are people trying to run this playbook that typically works better in SaaS marketing?

I think it's an option. I think it's. I think everything's on the table, right? The difference is one, where are we funneling people towards or where are we trying to nurture them towards, not funnel them, right. It's. It's typically at a lower volume. So where are we trying to nurture them towards? But also, how do we differentiate when we don't have a product to show when we are. This is one of the topics that we're thinking about bringing to the meetup is like, when your credibility is what you're selling, when your relationships and your people and your thought leadership is really the product. Right? Like, how do you differentiate that? And so I think the same goes for any organization in B2B right now, which is just highly, highly creative and differentiated approaches to content. And it's, you know, it's tenfold for non SaaS because we don't necessarily have demos, you know, freemium, sort of early stage, you know, test test, you know, trial runs. Those types of things are a little less frequent, I think, in a non SaaS environment. And so you really have to go off of how do I build credibility and how do I build trust? So much so that people are going to organizations will, will convert off of what I've sold them. Right. And so I think there's a world where it actually requires us to be a little bit more creative. And I love that challenge. I think the content, good content is regardless of whether it's SaaS or non SaaS. But I do think in a world where credibility is the differentiator as the thing that they're buying into and your ability to provide value and being able to show that and not tell that is trickier when you don't have a product to point towards. So, yeah, I mean, I think like there's also what I'm seeing and what I've experienced is that it's also very way more events forward. And so again, I don't think that's exclusive to or definitely no, it's not exclusive to non SaaS, but I think there's a world where non SaaS organizations know how to leverage events a little bit better because that's what that's getting in the room with people is half the battle sometimes because they don't. There's only so much of a footprint that they can find online. So I think there's. That there's something to be said for that. There's also the word of mouth piece. I think word of mouth and our topic last month, you know, driving referral programs was such a hot button issue because one, no one has it systematized. I think it's a great opportunity for us to, you know, sort of non SaaS folks to say, okay, this is what that playbook is. But again, very different. If you listen to that playback. We had different types of companies all, you know, saying, well, this is my approach and this is my approach and none were the same. But I do think that things like gifting or doing things a little bit outside of the norm to get in front of our ideal clients, it just gives us a little bit more creative freedom to do things a little bit differently instead of just sort of like the podcast webinar approach. And I also think like, it's because in a lot of ways, and again, very much depends on what non SaaS organization you're talking about and what vertical they're in. But sometimes because our volume is so much lower, you tend to be looking more towards an ABM play. Even if it's one to many or one to few, it's a little bit more of an ABM play versus a really broad TAM with a lot of demand or a lot of demand that needs to be created. You're working with a smaller frame of reference. So, yeah, I definitely think there's challenges there, but it gives us a little bit more freedom and flexibility to be super creative.

Cool. Cool. Yeah. I want to break down the. You said they're more events focused. When you say events focused, I'm sure it varies, but from some of the stories you've heard is that they are more focused on going to conferences, they're more focused on running maybe smaller intimate events or what does that event playbook or what can it look like for those types of companies? And then what. What is the event actually like? Like, are they, you know, are they presenting stuff? Are they just having drinks with potential customers? Like, what does that look like usually?

Yeah, I think it's, it's so funny you asked this question because I've been seeing this trend recently again from our, our very generously sharing SaaS peers and talking about these events that feel more like retreats and they feel more like these like highly curated moments where you're sitting on couches and around fire pits and you're doing excursions and things of that nature that in. So one of the segments that I worked in for a long time was targeting E commerce sellers and targeting Amazon sellers. And that sort of structure of an event has been done for years by these guys. These guys have been doing sort of the retreat style for a long, long, long time. So it's great to see other types of segments and groups sort of doing those types of events. I think they facilitate a lot of really strong relationship building. But I do think there's also a world. I, for a small stint did some work in the medical and healthcare vertical and those giant expos were still very much something that they would plan their calendar on. Their annual calendar, there's three or four massive expos every year that everyone was seen at. And how you were creative within those giant conferences was the key. But business was done on an expo hall floor in a booth. And if you turn to a B2B SaaS marketer right now, they'll tell you that's the last thing that they're going to invest in is a booth at an expo. Right. And so it really, your mileage may vary depending on the segment that you're in or the vertical, but I think it's all on the table. I do think, though intimate from my perspective, always wins just because it's so much better to be able to have a conversation with someone and get to know them as a human being. Especially if you're talking about, okay, we're going to enter into something where it's a 12 to 18 month sales cycle. You're not going to buy from me tomorrow. So let's start small. There's. I know plenty of organizations that also keep, I've never said this out loud where it sounds creepy, but, like, keep profiles on people where it's like, hey, this person has a family and they vacation here every year and they are interested in these three activities. And, and that's really meaningful when four months down the road, you told me to check in next quarter and.