What ABM Isn’t – Some Huge Misconceptions of ABM, and What Works in 2024

So the first question is, how do you get to the Goldilocks? The Goldilocks ABM list, right? And I think first, the first thing I would do is I would. I would look at my trailing six months of CRM data and look at my close ones and look at my close lost, right? A, you're looking at volume of opportunities created and then you're looking at, you know, your win rates across different types, right? So you're looking for trends across that data. Just looking at revenue by account is not a great way to do it because you might have a whole lot of close lost a very specific industry, which means that there's interest in your product, but you're just missing somewhere either in messaging, pitch, or that, right? So first thing to do is look at your company's data, right? Who am I winning, who am I generating a lot of opportunities with and maybe losing and then trying to find people who look like that? That's where I would absolutely start. You know, in my space, we sell a lot to, you know, software and technology companies. My biggest customer is Cisco, so I spend a lot of my time trying to find people who look like Cisco from a product and, and secure, you know, standpoint.

So my name is Dave, Dave Geart. I am the founder of Exit 5. This is my great guest today, Chris Rack. He's the CEO of Pharos iq. Gotten to know each other over the last couple weeks, just ripped through his presentation. I'm pumped for this one. ABM is consistently one of the most popular topics that we cover. And our goal with Exit 5 is to help you grow your career in B2B marketing through our content and our community. And today, this is. This is content. This is a session that is open to everybody, not just members. What's cool about these sessions is we got 600 people register. A couple hundred people will show up live. But there's a little bit of a longer tale with this as we turn these into podcast episodes. And so somebody might be listening now in a couple weeks. Out on a walk, cleaning the house, out on a run. Thanks for tuning in with us to get smarter about B2B marketing. Real quick in the chat, I want to know why you're here. Out of all the things you could do, what is it that you want to know about abm? Why take the time out of your day to spend a session about abm? If you could throw that in the chat real quick, just so Chris and I can see. I love seeing some of those comments. And so while we do that Chris, why don't you do a quick, quick intro, tell us about who you are. Tell us about Pharosoft. We get into your presentation.

Awesome. I'm Chris Rack, the CEO of Pharos iq. We are a demand generation solutions company powered by what we consider kind of down funnel intent signals. We help B2B marketers take turn those down funnel intent signals and turn them into leads and pipeline for your sales and marketing organization. So I've been in the demand generation space for just shy of 20 years, you know, at companies like Ziff Davis, Spiceworks and most recently a larger company called Demand Science where I was the CRO for multiple years there. So it's really, really, really, really pumped to be here. I've been watching the podcast since, since drift. Since you were drifting.

So I can't wait. I'm finally gonna, I get, I get, I finally got the call up. They called me in from the bullpen. I'm gonna go on your show beat a boring in a couple weeks and I'm looking, looking forward to that. Maybe we'll be able to replay some of the hits from as some really good so some of the reasons people are here right now. Nat, general overview of breast best practices and platforms to you for abm. Rebecca not getting enough ROI from existing ABM motions. Mark, I think you'll be good. This is right up here. This is a wheelhouse for you. Mark wants to cut through the BS from the big ABM vendors and hearing what's really working that doesn't rely on proprietary tools, man, if that is a good lead into your presentation today. So I'm excited. Here's what we're going to do. Chris. Chris has a presentation that's probably about 20, 25 minutes slides. I might pop in, interrupt, ask a question. But since we have him here with us, I want to spend a bunch of time with Q and A. So do me a favor. There is a. There's a Q and A box and you can go and put your questions in there. And that makes it easier for me than putting them in the chat because if you put them in the Q and A, all of the people that are listening can upvote answers and so I can serve them up to Chris. We'll have plenty of time. We want to help you with your ABM strategy at the end of this. So hang in there. Chris, without further ado, let's turn it over to you, man and let's talk about what ABM is not and what it is in 2024.

Awesome. Somebody in the chat asked me directly if they could talk to me afterwards about my previous, you know, some of my previous spots that I've been at.

Right.

The answer is, yeah, yes, you can, you can hit me up on LinkedIn at Christopher Rack directly. I'm happy to chat with anybody directly. After the webinar, I just happen to see some pop through. So. Okay, I'm going to attempt to share my screen, which is, you know, obviously I'm a retire. I'm a former sales human. So this is not, it's not something that's going to be. I'm a former sales human turned executive, which is not my forte. So here we go. Share screen.

And while Chris is getting his screen shared, I do want to let you know we do have one ground rule for any of these. We've done maybe 25 of these webinars over the last couple years. And the number one rule is if you ask if this is going to be recorded, you have to immediately put down the camera and do 100 burpees and then go run a mile. That's the, that's the requirement. It will be recorded. But if you ask if it's going to be recorded, we need to see video evidence of a one mile run in 100 burpees. That's all. Chris, over to you.

Okay. I was not aware of that rule. I will not be doing said burpees and her calisthenics on that side. So. Awesome. So ABM has been really all the rage for probably about 15 years now.

Right.

But not a lot of people talk about whether it actually works.

Right.

And some of the data out there, you know, looking at Gartner Forester, recent surveys, is that it might tell you that, you know, it doesn't work as often as you think. So what we're going to do here today is we're really going to dive into that.

Right.

And the real answer is that ABM can work, but it's not a layup.

Right.

It's not guaranteed. It's not something you should just click an ABM button and revenue and deals just start rolling through.

Right.

So today we're going to dive into, you know, what is, what I consider is a renaissance happening in the ABM space.

Right.

Some changes that are happening from what was to what will be, you know, and the journey, how I'm going to attack it will start with what ABM absolutely isn't.

Right.

I've always found it more fascinating myself to understand what something isn't. To better phrase it in what it is, and then we can talk a little bit about some of the ways that you can be successful with ABM in 2024 and going forward. And I say in 2024 and going forward because, you know, especially for those of you in tech, but other, other industries as well, whatever playbook you had in 2018-2022, it is gone, right? We are in a very, very different world. And you know, what's important is that we take those tactics and those playbooks and really change them and adapt them for what is a new market and what is a new world that has changed since the turn of the economy. So I'm going to dive in. But first and foremost, ABM isn't new in its product form. It's probably been around for about 15 years. But you know, some of us have been doing ABM since probably the, the late 90s. We just, we just called it sales, you know, and with the emergence of ABM technology and different vendors, you know, vendors in essence created this space, right. By giving it a name, right. It turned into this wildfire concept that everybody had to have. All right, I did it. Fantastic.

Right?

All right, have a good everybody. Thanks for coming. I will see you're good.

Fantastic. I've got the slides to work. Congratulations. Way to go. My marketing's. My CMO is literally crawling in her. In her.

No, this is good. This is all good. Anybody who gets upset about this, I have no patience for that. It's all good. It's all, we're humans talking to humans. Let's keep it moving. You're good.

I wore my, wore my, my best Goonies shirt for the day, right. So it's very much a representation of that. So really ABM really took fire and became unknown when the buyer journey changed.

Right.

And it's one of those things that you see, you read on LinkedIn all the time where someone says the buyer's journey has changed. And again, I've been doing this for 20 years and the buyer's journey has changed 26 times in that amount of time. But really the only thing that's really changed about the buyer's journey is that marketing is now more responsible for getting information into prospects hands. In the 90s and early 2000s, it, you know, sales carried a large part of that load. So it was a very one to one communication style. But ABM emerged because marketing became more responsible for driving that information. And you know, they realized that they had to start focusing that information on specific accounts like sales used to. But again, buyers just didn't want to engage with that seller till later in the process. So thus the emergence of abm. And again, I'm still seeing webinars and slides talking about trying out the new ABM solution and it really just isn't new.

I love that you said that because it's interesting to think about the history of sales. Back then, sales could have all of the control because information wasn't widely accessible. And so it's like I had to talk to you as the sales guy, Chris, and then you told me all about the product where now it's completely flipped. I could find everything I want to know about Pharos or Exit 5 without ever having to talk to somebody at that actual company.

Exactly. And that's really the key pivot in the buyer's journey that I think most of the analysts miss.

Right.

They talk about buyer preference, but buyers just want. They just want to get data in a way that they can trust.

Right.

And that's most efficient for them.

Right.

And really it just comes down to where most early stage research gathering is done through marketing and through digital channels because it's most efficient. Most late stage buyers decisions, peer reviews, asking friends, talking to sales, looking at demos is handled by sales. Because there's a trust factor that comes in that last stage of the journey, that handshake that means, hey, I'm going to buy from you and I trust that you're going to do me well. Secondly, ABM is not a product. No matter what a vendor says or multiple vendors say who've shaped the industry. Those who want you to think that you need a $70,000 platform to do ABM, those who think that ABM display or pushing out display solutions through a programmatic platform is abm, it's not. No matter what vendor wants you to think that, I can assure you that it's not and that you don't need those tools to do those things. ABM is absolutely a strategy. It is a combination of multiple tactics across multiple departments and multiple business units to drive to a cohesive goal.

Right.

It also doesn't have to be over complicated or expensive. ABM can be two people. An Excel spreadsheet in a crazy idea that requires $0,0 investment and 0 platform or solutions.

Right.

Showing return on investment with ABM solutions does not have to be as complicated as most think that it should be.

Right.

And really this. I saw a couple of chats just joining in about ABM challenges where people are having a hard time showing roi. And that's because most platforms who sell the ABM Dream attach their delivery or their services to programmatic ad Display. And it's really difficult to attribute return on investment to that solution. It's there, but it's hard for an executive to grasp that concept.

Right?

So you do not need any sort of product or solution or platform to do abm.

You don't need a specific technology tool or platform to do abm. I think this is the biggest thing that when you, when you initially started sharing like the content for this deck, I think that is the one thing. And we all are in a sea of messages from vendors out there who it's got to be done with their software. But like, for me, I'm not a sales guy, but one of the best books that I've ever read is the Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes, which is published in 2007. And he talks about this content of the the Dream 100, where like, if you're selling any product, you want to make a target list of 100 people that you want to buy your product. And like you said, you could do that with a spreadsheet and just sending emails and that can be abm. But we've, we've come today where oftentimes we see questions about ABM come up in our community and people equate ABM to like display advertising, you know, showing ads to target accounts. And what was what drew me to your content, Chris was like, oh, that's, that's one thing you can do, but that is not what ABM is.

Right?

And I mean kudos to those vendors, like really kudos to those vendors for creating a brand that showcases. They turned their software into the Kleenex of ABM for many years. And the renaissance is happening right now because finally people are like, I don't think it's actually working. People are starting to kind of reevaluate those purchase decisions. CFOs are getting involved in asking the really tough questions. These things happen in a down economy and that's what's happening to the ABM space right now. ABM can't be the only playbook, right? ABM tactically is a great idea. Identifying target accounts and creatively approaching them in ways that will open up those. My favorite ABM campaign ever was done by Spotify when they were trying to sell more businesses on Spotify advertising. And they actually wrote songs for their target buyers. They had 10 target buyers at 10 of the biggest advertisers in the world. And they wrote and produced customers for those 10 people. They sent those custom songs to those 10 people and eight of them turned into meetings and revenue within that next six month period. Right, that's, that's abm. But what happened after that? Oh, that's CEO. It's a great story. The CEO comes down after you do that and they say okay, we need to do that again and again and again. And you know, it becomes, it happen. It works so well that it becomes almost detrimental to the success going forward. And companies over focus on ABM and forget that there's an entire green field out there of accounts that you may not know are interested in your solution that you might not know. Arafit, an industry that you don't know is adopting your technology or your service or your product in a way that you never thought that they would. And that's why you can't just focus on abm. You have to have this greenfield mentality where you're kind of going out there and testing the waters because your next big industry or your next big customer that might become your next five customers might be in an industry or a company or a type of buyer that you just don't know or you can't see yet. And that especially happens in more early stage companies.

So you can't see this, but I'm going to read it to you. Brendan hall in the chat says burning the haystack to find the needle isn't a strategy. Preach. And then all caps preach. Shout this from the rooftop.

Yeah, and I've said that for a whole lot of years, right? Like at the haystack needle reference. I think I might even have it in my notes somewhere. But that's, that's really great. It's a really great analogy, right, that you know, you can't just ignore all of your other potential buyers just for the sake of winning a couple big fish. That's why ABM really can't be the only part of the playbook. And it's happening kind of a little bit too often these days. So we talked a little bit about what ABM isn't. So I wanted to talk a little bit about how I've seen customers and how my team, you know, has done some what I consider ABM well and how you can apply account based marketing strategies. Notice I didn't say products or solutions in 2024 and beyond. First thing that you have to do is ask yourself the question, is my company product or service a fit for account based marketing?

Right.

Not everyone is. You might not have a solution service or product. You might have a TAM that's just too big, right? That focusing on a specific group of accounts is a waste of time because there's so much opportunity out there, right? Like B2C companies don't do ABM. They don't focus on trying to sell me tacos, right? Because their TAM is so large that they just don't do it that way.

Right?

There are some companies that have huge tams that have huge target account total addressable markets that focusing on a small few customers is really costing you money. Because your law of diminishing returns, of not focusing on the huge audience, from there you might not have the resources, talent, budget or skill on your team to do it. You have to have either the experience, the will or the willpower to go out and do some custom creative stuff. And you have to have buy in from your executive team or your leadership team to go out and try those things. If you don't have those things, you're ice skating uphill and you're never going to see success. And this is one of the biggest reasons why that first slide that we saw some Forrester, that 42% of ABM campaigns struggle to show return on investment. And you know, one out of five campaigns you know aren't successful or are built on quicksand, right? Because if you don't have true buy in into the journey that you're going down, right? And you're not willing to tell your CEO that no, this isn't scalable like this. We're going to focus on these 25 accounts and we're going to win them and I can't make it bigger, then it's really going to be challenging. The second thing that I think is missed by almost all ABM practitioners and almost all B2B marketers is I think we're going to focus on these 25 accounts and we're going to win them. And I can't make it bigger, then it's really going to be challenging. The second thing that I think is missed by almost all ABM practitioners and almost all B2B marketers is identifying the right target account list. You know, so we talk a lot about tactic in the ABM space and B2B marketing space. Should I use email? Should we be cold calling? Should we do webinars? Should we do podcasts? Should I go to events? You know, should I do, you know, all xxx Tactic, tactic, tactic, tactic. Almost 75% of all the conversations are about the tactic, right? But you could have the best tactic sent to the wrong account and it's not going to perform and you can have the shittiest tactics sent to the right account and it's going to work. And I tell this to my team all the time. I could send the shittiest templated email to the right person who happens to be thinking about my products or solutions right now and that shitty email would turn into a meeting. I can send the greatest, most customized, beautifully written email to somebody who just bought a competitor of mine a week ago. And that, that's never going to turn into a meeting.

I'll give you, I'll give you an example. When I was at, when I was, when I was VP of marketing at Drift, I had my first kid. My first kid and like I posted about on LinkedIn and so every SaaS vendor in the was just like sending me gifts like left and right. And it was great. One company sent me like diapers, which is amazing, the best direct mail I've ever gotten. But it didn't create a need for a need or a sense of urgency for me to actually take the meeting. And so it was like a thoughtful thing. Like maybe I posted a picture about it and like you get some brand love for that reason. But if I don't have an actual need to buy the product or what's not relevant for me, then it just ends up being a waste anyway. And I do see that a lot where another thing people think about with abm, Chris, is like that we mentioned the display app thing. People also think like ABM is like sending stuff in the mail. Like that play doesn't necessarily like the, the everybody knows cialdini the reciprocity play. Like, and that's an old tactic now. Like just because you sent me something doesn't mean I'm going to now give you the meeting. And I think this is a perfect example of that.

Timing is, is really everything, right? And it's also the hardest thing. But there's, there's one and a half vendors in the space who've solved for timing from a vendor perspective who have, who have true intent, if you will, right? And one of them is Google. And the second one's big, right? When you go into a search engine and type in, I'm looking for demand generation solutions, right? Google is the only vendor that does a great job of capturing that you have intent, right? And that's why Google's a trillion dollar business from an advertising perspective, right? Which leads me to the point about intent. Most intent data in our space is absolute bullshit, right? I work in the space, I've worked in it for many, many years. Almost all intent data is driven by two sources. One, bid stream data, which is, you know, ripped advertising queue data where they're tracking whether somebody views a website and that's really not intent. Or co ops where there's a collection or cooperative of websites where again they track traffic, simple website traffic, right? So most intent in our space is intent to learn. I'm not doubting that buyers are reading websites, right? But there's a very, very big difference between intent to learn and intent to purchase. And there's very few vendors who are intent to purchase well right now. Second, you know sales can't be. It can't be a wish list, right? Too many times over I see ABM lists that have the Fortune 500 or the top 750 accounts in the world where sales just sits down and says we need to get into these accounts and I don't want to do any work. Go ahead marketing. Most intent in our space is intent to learn. I'm not doubting that buyers are reading websites, right? But there's a very, very big difference between intent to learn and intent to purchase. And there's very few vendors who are doing intent to purchase well right now. Second, you know sales can't be. It can't be a wish list, right? Too many to your ABM thing, right? There has to be some sort of data logic or structure behind it, right? Does your product fit great with an industry? Is there, do you have. What are your times over? I see ABM lists that have the Fortune 500 or the top 750 accounts in the world where sales just sits down and says we need to get into these accounts and I don't want to do any work. Go ahead marketing. Do your ABM thing, right? There has to be some sort of data logic or structure behind it, right? Does your product fit great with an industry? Is there, do you have. What are your top five customers look like? Find people who look like them and build your ABM that way, right? So really building your ABM list is really about finding that goldilocks, right? It has to be big enough to be approachable and you can play around with it a bit. It has to be a bit lofty to where you're trying to break into significant accounts because you might have to spend extra time or resources to get the top five customers look like find people who look like them and build your ABM that way. So really building your ABM list is really about finding that goldilocks. It has to be big enough to be approachable and you can play around with it a bit. It has to be a bit lofty to where you're trying to break into significant accounts because you might have to spend extra time or resources to get there, you know, but it has to be somewhat rooted in data. You just can't go and, you know, put together an account list just because the CEO or your sales team wants to crack into these accounts, you know, but it has to be somewhat rooted in data you just can't go and there's no real relevance to them. Then finally, you know, the in ABM and you know, put together an account list just because the CEO or your sales team wants to crack into these accounts and there's no real relevant relevance to them. Then finally, you know, ABM is not scalable, right? I might be on an island alone in this, right? But I do is not scalable, right? I might be on an island alone in this, right? But I do not believe that one to many ABM is a thing that's just targeted marketing that's just taking your audience and segmenting it down based on triggers and doing regular B2B marketing. I believe one to one and one to few ABM solutions are true ABM. And that's when I said earlier that ABM is really going through a renaissance, right? I do believe that. I believe that one to many ABM is a thing that's just targeted marketing that's just taking your audience and segmenting it down based on triggers and doing regular B2B marketing. I believe one to one and one to few ABM solutions are true ABM. And that's when I said earlier that ABM is really going through a renaissance, right? I do believe that ABM in 2024 and going forward will be more one to one and one to few where you're really focusing on what are the very top opportunities. Just because there's significantly less companies in market, there's less funding, there's less interest, rates are high, there's less money being put into the world. And when there's less money being put in the ABM in 2024 and going forward will be more one to one and one to few where you're really focusing on what are the very top opportunities. Just because there's significantly less companies in market, there's less funding, there's less interest, rates are high, there's less money being put into the world. And when there's less money being put in the world, there's less in market buyers. So attacking the really big fish is going to be even more Important, right? So again, this is not something that you can grant Cardone for your CEO, right? You cannot 10x it no matter how much he wants you to, right? And you have to be willing to have that conversation to say, hey, I world, there's less in market buyers. So attacking the really big fish is going to be I'm going to use this and I'm going to break into these accounts but don't come to me and ask me how to scale it because it's even more important, right? So again, this is not something that you can grant Cardone for your CEO, right? You cannot 10x it no matter how much he wants you to.

Right?

And you have to be willing to have that conversation to say, hey, I just logically is not scalable.

There's a Anthony in the chat says one to many is explicitly not abm. Good, good. ABM isn't scalable as the plays need to be unique to the account. Though the operation of building an ABM team and program can be scale, correct?

You could, you can. I do agree that if you have a very large, if you have a very robust, robust product suite, right? Say you're an oracle, right? You have. When you have 72 different. I'm going to use this and I'm going to break into these accounts but don't come to me and ask me how to scale it because IT products, right? You can have, you know, 72 segmented ABM programs that are all one to few and very specific product markets, industries, buyer Personas, et cetera, right? So I do it just logically is not scale.

There's a Anthony in the chat says one to many is explicitly not abm. Good, good. ABM isn't scalable as the plays need to be unique to the account. Though the operation of building an ABM team and program can be scaled, correct?

You can, you can read that it can be scalable that way. But the concept of one to many, I agree absolutely that it's just a flawed concept. It's not ABM, it's just B2B marketing. So I want to just take two seconds to end, right? And talk a little, you know, a little, a little proof. A little proof case of how ABM can be successful without a platform, without a solution, without any of that, right? So I do agree that if you have a very large, if you have a very robust, robust. My version and our version at Ferrous iq, our version of ABM is our product suite, right? Say you're an oracle, right? You have, you have 72 different products.

Right.

You can have 72 segmented ABM programs that are all one to few and very specific product markets, industries, buyer Personas, et cetera.

Right.

So I do it to boring podcasts. You know, what we've done with the podcast is I've connected with B2B marketing decision makers on LinkedIn. I have some automation tools that do it and I do a lot direct myself as well. And if there's a target customer or a target buyer or just somebody interesting, you know, I invite them onto the podcast personally. Agree that it can be scalable that way. But the concept of one to many, I agree absolutely that it's just a matter of, you know, we get a fair amount of people who are interested in building their personal brand and joining, we invite them on the show, we talk, we chat and you know, at the end of, at the end of that, I'll casually ask them if they're interested in kind of hearing a little bit more about our solutions. If not, we put them in a nice, you know, email and flawed concept. It's not ABM, it's just B2B marketing. So I wanted to take two seconds to end.

Right.

And talk a little, you know, a little, a little proof, a little proof case of how ABM can be successful without a platform, without a solution, without any of that.

Right.

So see our outreach, nurture from there. And you know, just in the roughly six months that we've had the podcast up and live, We've generated about 250my, my version and our version at Ferros IQ. Our version of ABM is our B revenue from it and it cost $0. I use, I don't have any fancy podcast technology or Riverside or any of that stuff. I just use zoom and record it and it's a boring podcast. You know, what we've done with the podcast is I've connected with B2B marketing decision makers on LinkedIn. I have some automation tools that do it and I do a lot direct myself as well. And if there's a target customer or a target buyer, myself and my marketing team edit to the best of our editing capabilities to keep, to keep things. So this is an example kind of, you know, what I call the renaissance of abm where it, you know, it's a little bit scrappy, you know, it's not perfect, it might not be the prettiest. You know, I'm not Chris Walker with, you know, 4K HD video cameras following me around everywhere. Just somebody interesting. You know, I invite them onto the podcast Personally, where. But, you know, we still were able to make it work from that perspective.

He's on a laptop from, you know.

We get a fair amount of people who are interested in building their personal brand and joining. We invite them on the show, we talk, we chat, and, you know, at the end of. At the end of that, I'll casually ask them if they're interested in kind of hearing a little bit more about our solutions. If not, we put them in a nice, you know, email and hotel in Belfast.

That's pretty good. Pretty good for me. All right. That was awesome. That was great. We got a bunch of questions while we're talking about examples, though, before I have a bunch of questions, so go to the Q A. Thanks, Chris. Take a drink of water, deep breath, whatever you need while we.

While we get our outreach, nurture from there. And, you know, just in the roughly.

Six, get ready and go to the Q and A. I have a bunch of questions in there now. Go.

This is your months that we've had the podcast up and live. We've generated about 250 of revenue from it and it cost $0. I use. I don't have any fancy podcast technology or Riverside or any of that stuff. I just use Zoom and record it and myself and my marketing team edit, you know, to the best of our editing capabilities to keep things clean. So this is an example kind of, you know, what I call the renaissance of abm, where it, you know, it's a little bit scrappy. You know, it's not perfect. It might not be the prettiest. You know, I'm not Chris Walker with, you know, 4K HD video cameras following me around everywhere, but, you know, we still were able to make it work from that perspective.

He's on a laptop. From your chance, Chris and I, we got a good 30 minutes right now. Like, this is your chance. I know. I know why you're here. You're here to get smarter about abm, for your job. Chris is a great resource on this. Like, let's get your questions in there to help you personally right now. But in the chat. So Chris used that one example of the ABM play with the podcast. Does anybody else have a great ABM play or example? Because anytime we talk about abm Hotel in Belfast, that's pretty good. Pretty good for me. All right. That was awesome. That was great. We got a bunch of questions while we're talking about examples, though, before I have a bunch of questions, so go to the Q and A. Thanks, Chris. Take a drink of water, Deep Breath, whatever you need while we, while we get a. Want people love the examples. That's a good example from Chris. Put yours in the chat. I would like to hear a couple other examples. And Brendan says in the chat, will these slides be available to us? Yes, absolutely. We'll, we'll get them from the team and we'll, we'll send them over. So I want to know what a good example of abm. Get ready and go to the Q and A. I have a bunch of questions in there. Now go. This is your campaigns that you've seen in the chat. I'm going to sprinkle those in and I'm going to flip over chance. Chris and I, we got a good 30 minutes right now. Like this is your chance. I know, I know why you're here. You're here to get smarter about abm for your job.

Job.

Chris is a great resource on this. Like let's get your questions in there and to help you personally right now. But in the chat. So Chris used that one example of the ABM play with the podcast. Does anybody over and do this Q and A here? So here's the first question. This question is from Brody. Do you think ABM should be focused on long term business versus short term? And that's a good one because this is something that a lot of us marketers struggle with. It's like, how do I like you're doing this beat a boring thing, which is abm. But how do you, you know, we also want to hit the number now. We need to have somebody else have a great ABM play or example. Because anytime we talk about abm, people want. People love the examples. That's a good example from Chris. Put yours in the chat. I would like to hear a couple other examples. And Brendan says in the chat, will these slides be available to us? Yes, I have goals this quarter. So how do you balance, how do you think about ABM long term versus short term?

I mean, it's really the. I, I think my personal take is that all marketing is playing the long game.

Right.

And it really comes down to demand capture versus demand creation.

I think absolutely. We'll get them from the team and we'll send them over. So I want to know what a good example of abm.

ABM is a function of demand creation.

Right.

And explaining to your executive team because.

That'S where that question campaigns that you've seen in the chat. I'm going to sprinkle those in and I'm going to flip over and do this Q and A here. So here's the first question. This question is from Brody. Do you think ABM should be focused on long term business versus short term Comes from right?

We want marketing to show ROI now. And that stress is only gaining, right? So having that conversation and saying, hey, we have a budget specifically designed for demand cap.

And that's a good one because this is something that a lot of us marketers struggle with. It's like how do I like you're doing this beat up, right?

Paid search, paid, you know, HQL programs like really down funnel stuff that we're going to attack with this budget set. But our ABM budget set is playing the long game, right?

The boring thing, which is abm. But how do you, you know, we also want to hit the number now we need to have.

We're going to dedicate this budget into these big accounts that we know might take in some cases 6, 12, 18.

Months, have goals this quarter. So how do you balance, how do you think about ABM long term versus short term?

I mean it's really the. I think my personal take is that all marketing is playing the long game, right? Penetrate into. Because really it comes down to there's roughly only 5% of your target audience who's in market to buy at any time in B2B, right? It's not serial, people don't buy it every day and there's not 200 million transactions. So your job as a marketer is to. And it really comes down to demand capture versus demand creation, I think is to if there are people in market, try to catch them, try to catch those fish. But more importantly, ABM is a function of demand creation, right? And explaining to your executive team because that's where that question when, when you have a customer who's not our prospect, who's not in market once the comes from, right? We want marketing to show ROI now. And that stress is only gaining, right? So having that conversation and saying, hey, we have a budget specifically designed for demand. That problem comes up and they are. You want them to think of you first. And that's what some of those ABM plays are. And that's the difference between kind of creation and capture. So the short answer is it's not an easy solution, right? Because everybody's got a boss and everybody wants ROI on their spend like yesterday. And there's capture, right? Paid search, paid, you know, HQL programs like really down funnel. There's so many people looking to buy right now. But by setting the expectation to your team, you'll stuff that we're going to attack with this budget set. But our ABM budget set is playing the long game, right? Leaders that, hey, a lot of this is the long game. And you're going to see you're going to dedicate this budget into these big accounts that we know might take in some cases 6 12, 18 months to penetrate into. Because really it comes down to there's roughly only 5% of your target return on investment. But it's going to come here and here. And if you can showcase that picture, most executives will be able to understand that, hey, I'm in. But you better hit those numbers 612 months down the line like you're saying you're going to.

Nice, Brody. Brody says great answer, Chris.

Get audience who's in market to buy at any time in B2B.

Right.

It's not serial, people don't buy it every day and there's not 200 million transactions. So your job as a marketer is to.

Good job. And then just a follow on from Alex. Alex says layering on Brody's question, how do you balance ABM for new logo accounts versus expansion on existing accounts?

Accounts? Yeah, I mean I think expansion on existing accounts is one of the most under marketed things in B2B is to, if there are people in market, try to catch them, try to catch those fish. But more importantly, when, when you have a customer who's not our prospect, who's not in market. When's that? Right now.

Right.

Especially given a lot of software and you know, solutions and services companies have multiple product suites that they can offer. So you have the customer, you're already approved vendor, you've already gone through the procurement, you've already done all the hard stuff. It's really just about expanding and educating from that perspective. So if it were me, that problem comes up and they are, you want them to think of you first. And that's what some of those ABM plays are. And that's the difference between kind of creation and capture. So the short answer is in this market again, in a tough economy, we have to try to, you know, laser foot. It's not an easy solution.

Right.

Because everybody's got a boss and everybody wants ROI on their spend like yesterday. And there's only so many people looking to buy right now. But by setting the expectation to your team, you focus on the most low hanging fruit. I'd be, I'd be putting 80% of my efforts into my current customers and then expanding them that big. Obviously the quid pro quo there is if I had a Product that was multi, you know, multifaceted that I could upsell and cross sell into different business units, et cetera.

Right.

What you can't do right now is try to sell more seats leaders that, hey, a lot of this is the long game and you're gonna see, you're gonna see return on investment, but it's gonna come here and here. And if you can showcase that picture most executives because everybody's seat count is going down.

Right.

So if you have a very singular one seat, one solution product, then obviously you're gonna focus a lot more of your time on new logo abm because you don't have the flexibility to do it. So short answer, if you have a product suite, well, we'll be able to understand that. Hey, I'm in. But you better hit those numbers 612 months down the line like you're saying you're going to.

Nice Brody. Brody says great answer, Chris.

That is built for upsell cross sell. 80% of my spend time and effort is going right there.

First Love that business 101. Get more revenue from your existing customers. Right. Like it's just something that I always forget. We always go back to. And that's the, that's the, the play for expansion. So Mark, next question is Mark says what's your process for. Good job. And then just a follow on from Alex. Alex says layering on Brody's question, how do you balance ABM for new logo accounts versus expansion on existing accounts?

Yeah, I mean I think expansion on existing accounts is one of the most under marketed things in B2B.

Getting to that Goldilocks target account list. What types of questions should you ask or brainstorm right now?

Right.

Especially given a lot of software and.

You know, solutions and with sales, what other metrics or account dimensions are most important?

That's a lot of questions, Mark. That's a, that's a good. Come on Mark, you're killing me here. Like I just start consulting time. No, no, it's great. Services companies have multiple product suites that they can offer, right. So you have the customer, you're already approved vendor, you've already gone through the procurement, you've already done all the hard. So the first question is how do you get to the Goldilocks? The Goldilocks AB stuff, it's really just about expanding and educating from that perspective. So I would, if it were me, endless, right. And I think first the first thing I would do is I would, I would look at my trailing six months of CRM data and look at my close ones and look at my closed loss, right? And look at the a. You're looking at volume of opportunities created and then you're looking at in this market again, in a tough economy we have to try to, you know, laser foot, you know, your win rates across different types, right? So you're looking for trends across that data, right? Focus on the most low hanging fruit. I'd be about, I'd be putting 80% of my efforts into my current customers and then expanding them. That being obviously the quid pro quo. Just looking at revenue by account is not a great way to do it because you might have a hole there. As if I had a product that was multi, you know, multifaceted, that I could upload a lot of close lost from a very specific industry, which means that there's interest in your product but you're just missing somewhere either in messaging, pitch or that, right? So first thing to do is look at sell and cross sell into different business units, et cetera, right? What you can't do right now is try to sell more seats. Your company's data, right? Who am I winning? Who, who am I generating a lot of opportunities with and maybe losing and then trying to find people who look like that, right? That's the, that's where I would absolutely start. If you know, in my space at feroc we sell a lot to you know, software and technology companies, right? So my biggest customer is Cisco. So I spend a lot because everybody's seat count is going down, right? So if you have a very singular one seat, one solution product, then obviously you're going to focus a lot more of your time on new logo ABM because you don't have the flexibility to do it. So short answer, if you have a product suite out of my time trying to find people who look like Cisco from a product and security standpoint. So after that you can start getting into some of the external sources of data that is built for upsell cross sell. 80% of my spend time and effort is going right there, right. So I call them triggers, right? And every industry has very certain triggers, right? If I'm selling billboards, right, And I'm driving down the street and I see.

A company advertised, love that business 101, get more revenue from your existing customers, right? Like this is something that I always forget we always go back to.

And that advertising on a billboard, that's a trigger for me. I'm going to want to go after that company. So it's really about finding about for your company. What are your sales team's Triggers. If I'm selling, that's the, that's the.

The play for expansion. So Mark, next question is, Mark says, what's your process for getting to that Goldilocks target account list? What types of questions should you ask or brainstorm recruiting solutions?

A company that's showing a lot of growth, that would be a trigger. If I'm selling, you know, cleaning services, right. A company that just purchased a big new facility would be a trigger. Right in my space. Again, I sell, you know, demand generation solutions. When, when someone has a webinar or someone is promoting a white paper or someone is, is is putting their content.

With sales, what other metrics or account dimensions are most important?

That's a lot of questions, Mark. That's a, that's a good. Come on Mark, you're killing me here. Like I can just enter their services out there, right? That's a trigger for me that I should be focusing on them, right. So their consulting time, no, if, no, it's great. Look at your data first, find your triggers second and then there is opportunity to take advantage. So the first question is, how do you get to the Goldilocks? The Goldilocks of some, let's call it trigger or signal or quote unquote intent data in the space. I'll warn you on intent data is that there's a lot of shitty stuff out there, but there are some good ones out there. And the questions to ask when you start diving into intent data is, is first ask your vendor, do they share their data with anybody else or do they purchase it with anybody else? Because most intent data, and I think first, the first thing I would do is I would look at my trailing six months of CRM data and look at my close ones and look at my closed lost, right? And look at the a. You're looking at volume of opportunities created and then you're looking at in the space right now is the same data sold by 17 different vendors under a different name. The second question to ask is what makes it a signal, right? Is it just because somebody went to a website? That's not a signal for me. A signal for me is someone who raised their hand and maybe read a piece of content. You know that your win rates across different types, right? So you're looking for trends across that data, right? That was more down funnel like a case study or a comparison report or somebody who went to a review. So just looking at revenue by account is not a great way to do it because you might have a whole lot of close lost from a very Specific industry, which means that there's interest in your product, but you're just missing somewhere either in messaging, pitch or that.

Right.

So the first thing to do is look at site or somebody who did something that showcased, hey, I'm evaluating solutions, but there are vendors in the space that have that type of data. And I think by combining those three things, you can, you can really get to a pretty good Goldilocks.

Right?

Notice in that particular equation, I didn't say ask sales and I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a good relationship with your sales, your company's data.

Right.

Who am I winning? Who, who am I generating a lot of opportunity. But in this particular case, sales will never be able to give you. They'll have a hard time giving you a tangible target account list because they're always going to want you to chase the biggest accounts that are the hardest for them to crack. Because that's how salespeople do things. And I know that because it is with it maybe losing and then trying to find people who look like that.

Right.

That's the, that's where I would absolutely start. If, you know, in my space at FEROC iq we sell a lot to.

Right.

They're looking for the path of least resistance to the most money in their pocket and a lot of software and technology companies. Right. So my biggest customer is Cisco. So I spend a lot of my time trying to find people who look like Cisco from a product and secure, you know, standpoint, that is giving you the hard work so they can just, just show up, have a dinner and close the deal.

I think you, you may have kind of answered this, but I'm asking again in case you want to answer it. Spencer says what is the best way to create a target list and gather data if it's not identifying target ICPs from the sales team? Kind of just answer that.

Yeah, I think we covered a lot of that, you know, from that perspective. But it's. So after that you can start getting into some of the external sources of data.

Right.

So I call them triggers.

Right.

And every industry has very certain triggers, right. If I'm selling billboards, right, And I'm driving down the street and I see a company advertise, I think, I think we did. I think we're good.

All right, here is, here's a good one from Christina. How do you ultimately prove that ABM is or is not working?

I mean, the easiest way to do it is to directly track, you know, whatever you did to a meeting, you know, through salesforce into an opportunity, into revenue, right? So that's the easiest way on a billboard, that's a trigger for me. I'm going to want to go after that company. So it's really about. And that's the way that your CEO is going to be able to understand it the most you can go down attribution pathways, right? Single touch, multi touch, first touch finding about for your company, what are your sales team's triggers? If I'm selling such all of that, I will warn you that, you know, that's usually where most ROI stories get recruiting solutions. A company that's showing a lot of growth, that would be a trigger if I'm selling lost, right? If I, if I brought my cfo who's one of my good friends and an amazing human, you know, cleaning services, right. A company that just purchased a big new facility would be a trigger right in my space again, I sell, you know, demand generation solutions. When, when someone has in an attribution story to talk about how we did these four things and we attributed one and a half percent of those touches to this revenue across these campaigns, he would just, you know, we would just turn himself off and say this doesn't make any sense to me.

Right.

So generating return on your investment is the hardest thing to do for a marketer. It's really just not easy because especially you know, as you're probably the webinar or someone is promoting a white paper or someone is putting their content or their services out there, right? That's a trigger for me that I should be focusing on that them, right. So look at your data first, find your triggers second and then there is opportunity to take advantage hearing in the space, you know, having that brand presence is becoming more important, right. And doing, doing the things that are less tangible from a lead perspective, right. And it's not as cut and dry. So I think the best way to do it is appease your executive team with some advantage of some, let's call it trigger or signal or quote unquote intent data in this fairly simple like you know, like pay per leads or content syndication programs where you can directly and simply say this person downloaded a white paper. We followed up with them, we had a meeting and we generated revenue, right. Some of that just to showcase, you know, a guaranteed if I give you money, you're going to give me something back and then combine it with other bigger brand plays like a podcast or you know, maybe maybe a billboard in a specific event or something of that nature. So kind of based on, I'll warn you on intent data is that there's a lot of shitty stuff out there, but there are some good ones out there. And the questions to ask when you start diving into intent data is first ask your vendor, do they share their data with anybody else or do they purchase it with anybody else? Because most intent data in the space right now is the same data sold by 17 different vendors under a different name. The second, dabbling in things that feel safe for an executive allow them make for easier return on investment. Investment. Also make sure your rev Ops person is your best friend. I used to call it sales ops but now all the cool kids are calling it rev ops and marketing ops and GTA GTM ops. Hashtag GTM GTM now. But now my question to ask is what makes it a signal, right? Is it just because somebody went to a website? That's not a signal for me. A signal for me is someone who raised their hand and maybe read a piece of content that was more downfall funnel like a case study or a comparison report or somebody who went to a review. Make friends with that person because the revenue sits in your CRM, right? And being able to connect that revenue in Salesforce or HubSpot or whatever CRM you use to your marketing programs is probably vital. So becoming really close friends with the person who can do that for you is vital to that piece of success.

I have a question, this question comes.

From site or somebody who did something that showcased hey, I'm evaluating solutions, solutions. But there are vendors in the space that have that type of data and I think by combining those three things you can, you can really get to a pretty good Goldilocks, right? Notice in that particular equation I did.

Dave is there if somebody out there is like listening, didn't say ask sales.

And I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a good relationship with your sales.

This and they're like ah, should we be doing ABM or not? Is there like a company sales, company size, what you're selling, revenues, you know, revenue stage. What's a broad strokes like benchmark to figure out if you should be taking this approach? I think historically people would say, but.

In this particular case sales will never be able to give you.

Like oh, it's got to be you know, X dollars of average contract value. But I'm curious to hear how you would think about that.

Yeah, I mean like really, really early stage startups, right that are just scratch. I'm giving you a tangible target account list because they're always going to want you to chase the biggest accounts that are the hardest for them to crack because that's how salespeople do things. And I know that because I am one.

Right.

They're looking for the path of least resistance to the most money in their pocket and a lot of being starting. Almost everything they're doing is kind of abm.

Right.

Most of them are founder led, you know, the founders reaching out to people individually to invite them to join or test or they need like all of those really early stage startup stuff are inherently all ABM because you just don't have the resources or bandwidth to target a large audience. So I think like that is giving you the hard work so they can just show up, have a dinner and close the deal.

I think you more ro.

I mean I'm not, I would say my. I'm saying once you start getting into that point where you've got a small selling team, right, With a sales leader.

You may have kind of answered this, but I'm asking again in case you want to answer it. Spencer says what is the best way to create a target list and gather data if it's not identifying target ICPs from the sales team? Can I just answer that?

Yeah, I think we covered a lot of that, you know, from that perspective. But it's. You've got a marketing leader, maybe two, you know, maybe two, you know, contractors or a small marketing team where you have people who can collaborate on ideas to deliver creative ideas to, you know, 10 accounts.

Right.

If you have the resources or bandwidth to put together a very creative, targeted, you know, attack at 10 accounts.

Right.

I think, I think we did. I think we're good.

All right, here is, here's a good one from Christina.

And again I would say that's probably, you know, once you start getting up to a million of revenue or a.

Million, how do you ultimately prove that ABM is or is not working?

I mean, you know, I don't say ARR because believe it or not, for all the SaaS folks out there, there are companies, the easiest way to do it is to directly track, you know, whatever you did to a meeting, you know, to through Salesforce into an opportunity, into revenue.

Right.

So that's the easiest way is that don't sell things on an ARR basis. So it's just revenue for them. But yeah, you don't have to be huge. And I think probably it's easier to do ABM when you're small because like the resources you do have, you have to really make sure they're going after the right accounts and that's the way that your CEO is going to be able to understand it the most you can.

One of the things I love about it is taking an ABM approach to sales and marketing. It kind of stitches together all of the typical bullshit that comes with questions.

About credit and go down attribution pathways.

Right.

Single touch, multi touch, first touch, last.

Marketing is doing things that sales doesn't believe in. Like I had a great podcast with.

Such all of that. I will warn you that that's usually where most ROI stories get lost.

Right.

If I, if I brought my CFO who's one of my good friends and an amazing human.

Hilary Carpio runs ABM at Snowflake and we talked about just like how it's one team like, like we're joking about like this revenue team thing, but it.

Is and an attribution story to talk about how we did these four things. And we attributed one and a half.

Strong trend of like sales and marketing to close to generate pipeline and close deals at target accounts versus like marketing is doing this stuff. Sales is grumbling about scent of those.

Touches to this revenue across these campaigns. He would just, you know, we would just turn himself off and say this doesn't make any sense to me.

Right.

So generating return on your investment is the hardest thing to do for a marketer. It's really just not easy because especially you know, as you're probably like we.

Don'T know what they're doing. We're just over here closing our own book of business. It's, it's does feel like the great, it does solve a lot of the alignment issues. You know what I'm trying to articulate.

Yeah, I mean sales and marketing alignment has been the topic of podcasts and webinars since you know, sales and marketing existed. And I think it probably will be for the next hundred years as well too. But ABM is a great way to hearing in the space. You know, having that brand presence is becoming more important.

Right.

And mine because what ABM is, is and I, what I think true sales and marketing alignment is is a series of agree and doing. Doing the things that are less tangible from a lead perspective. Right, right. That's what you know, it's not about. It's not about like seeing the vision and who takes it in. It's not as cut and dry. So I think the best way to do it is appease your executive team with something fairly simple like you know, like pay per leads or content syndication programs where you can credit and all that. Because there's always going to be egos, there's always going to be politics.

And.

But like I, I had had somebody asked me one time like, what's an mql? And I was like, well, everybody defines it different and, and that marketer was like, wrong. An MQL is a contract between marketing and sales on what a good lead is.

Right.

And I think that's kind of what ABM is as well. Right. It's a contract indirectly and simply say this person downloaded a white paper, we followed up with them, we had a meeting and we generated revenue.

Right.

Some of that just to showcase, you know, a guaranteed. If I get between marketing and sales on how to attack the accounts that have the highest propensity to buy you money, you're going to give me something back and then combine it with other bigger brand plays like a podcast, right. And by putting it down and writing it down and having that plan, it's that agreement, that crest or you know, maybe maybe a billboard in a specific event or something of that nature. So kind of creates that sales and marketing synergy. And I think that kind of bleeds into other stuff as well.

Right.

So that's sales and marketing alignment.

Right.

It's really a series of contracts. What's a good lead? What's a Whatever. Whatever, Whatever. What is that? Anagram analog. Dabbling in things that feel safe for an executive. Allow them make for easier acronym, whatever acronym that you use for leads in your organization. Because I've heard no less than 50 of them. Just make sure that everybody agrees under return on investment. Also make sure your rev Ops person is your best friend. I used to call it sales ops, but now all the cool kids are calling it rev ops and marketing ops and gtm GTM Ops. Hashtag gtm. Everyone's GTM now. But now like what those are and how many we need and who's going to do what with them. If you have those three contracts, you'll always have sales and marketing alignment and abm. To your point, Dave is a great way to do it.

First time I ever really worked closely, I was a head of marketing. Like young head of first time head of marketing. The startup that I was at, they just hired a VP of sales and this guy was like a 20 year veteran, like seasoned. I'm the young marketer.

Make friends with that person because the revenue sits in your CRM, right?

And never done this before. He comes in, he starts, he's like, all right, let's dig into the fun.

Being able to connect that revenue in Salesforce or HubSpot or whatever CRM you use to your marketing programs is probably vital. So becoming really close friends with the person who can do that for you is vital to that piece of success.

I have a question. This question comes from Donald. I show him all the data, he's like hey man, we gotta have a hard conversation. I'm like what? He's like these are not MQLs what you have, what you have is contacts. These are, these are contacts, these are email addresses. These are not MQLs. And that was like the first like big dump of cold water on me to like realize the difference. And like I think it is, it's table stakes. And today Dave up is there. If somebody out there is like listening to his digital world to just like acquire names of people. It's the, the, the, the MQL level, the intent level that if you can drive that, that's what this actually looks like and that's what's actually going to drive revenue, right?

Yeah, it's, it's and the end, you know, like some, like some this and.

They'Re like ah, should we be doing ABM or not? Is there like a company, company size, what you're selling, revenues, you know, revenue stage. What's a broad strokes like benchmark to figure out if you should be taking this approach? I think historically people would say, some.

Sales leaders would call the MQL the contact name that you have to turn into their SQL, right? It's just there's so many different languages spoken that it's just, just all about like again I even, I even challenge everyone from a sales and marketing alignment to create a contract, right? Like write it down, right? Make the VP of sales sign. It's right.

Like it sounds like oh it's got to be you know, X dollars of average contract value. But I'm curious to hear how you would think about that.

I mean like really, really early stage startups, right that are just scrappy and starting. Almost everything they're doing is kind of abm, right? Most of them are founder led, you know the founders reaching out to people individually to invite them to join or test or things like it sounds hokey but. Right, like yeah it, it because what happens is especially in down times, sales are gonna, sales is gonna struggle and sales is gonna come blame marketing because that's what sales does, right? And when and when things are going really, really well, sales is gonna, sales is gonna jump up and say that we're awesome because that's what sales does.

Hey, we've I've been on others.

All of those really early stage startup stuff are, are inherently all ABM because you just don't have the.

I do. I've been saying, look at all the leads we're generating look. So I can't sales close any of.

These like resources or bandwidth to target a large audience. So I think like more rope. I mean, I'm not, I would say my, I'd say, you know, once you start getting into that point where you've got a small selling team, right. With a sales leader.

What.

What are we, what are we doing? This is Brody Brody. Brody says in the chat. I'm so grateful that you hosted this webinar. I appreciate all the information. Keep it up. I got some more questions for you, sir. Here we go.

This one is is.

This one is for. This one is from Shreya. Is there a different ABM approach that you would take for boomerang customers?

All right, I, I'm, I'm old so I'm not down with the, the cool. You've got a marketing leader, maybe two, you know, maybe two, you know, contractors lingo. How are we defining a boomerang customer?

Probably someone that, maybe someone that churned and came back.

Okay, so like a win back ABM approach or a small marketing team where you have people who can collaborate on ideas to deliver creative ideas to, you know, 10 accounts.

Right.

If you have the resources or bandwidth to put together a very creative targeted, you know, attack at 10 accounts.

Right.

I think, I think, I think, yeah. From, from, from your world, you would call this a win back.

Okay. Okay, got it. So I mean generally like just freestyle.

Let's freestyle on the spot for them right now.

Yeah, it's a hard, it's, it's a hard. I mean that's a win backs are the hardest ABM approach.

Right.

Because really what happened is that trust that happened in the last. And again I would say that's probably, you know, once you start getting up to a million of, of revenue or a million of, you know, I don't say ARR because believe it or not, for all the SaaS folks out there, there, there are companies part of that buying cycle, right between marketing sales and the customer got broken by companies that don't sell things on an ARR basis. So it's just revenue for that. But yeah, you don't have to be huge. And I think probably it's easier to do ABM when you're small because whatever reason, right, you know, some sort of performance issue or some metric or, you know, sometimes Timing or sometimes weird things happen with budget cuts and things of that nature.

Right.

But really the, the trust and you have to try to build it back, right? So first off I, I would, I would give it time, right. So I would, I would segment my ABM approach on winbacks based on a certain given time just to like the resources you do have. You have to really make sure they're going after the right accounts. Kind of let things settle down.

Right.

And my personal take and my style is a little.

One of the things I love about it is taking an ABM approach to sales and marketing.

It, it kind of bit different holistically but I think the best way to build back trust is A admitting that something happened and then B saying something funny.

Right.

So if I'm doing an abm stitches.

Together all of the typical bullshit that comes with questions about credit and marketing's doing things that sales doesn't believe in. Like I had a great podcast with Hill Backside, right.

The first message I'm going to send to someone is I'm sorry, we suck.

Right.

And the second thing is I'm going to send something funny and try to you know, make them realize that I'm human and sometimes even vendors and humans miss and that doesn't mean that the solution isn't a fit.

Right?

So that's how I would attack it.

I think it all, I think it starts with first understanding. Like so, so they said in the chat, yes, it's Hillary Carpio runs ABM at Snowflake and we talked about just like how it's one team that like we're joking about like this revenue team thing. But, but it is a strong trend of like sales and marketing working together to clo to generate pipeline and close deals at target accounts versus like marketing is doing this stuff. Sales is grumbling about win back customers who had churned. I think it also first starts with an understanding of like why they churned and then you can under like so one thing I've seen done in the past is we had it either from our CEO or VP of sales. But basically any anyone that churned after that we would send them an email from the CEO and just say like hey, hey, I saw you checked out. You know, I saw you were using like we don't know what they're doing. We're just over here closing our own book of business. It's, it does feel like the great, it does solve a lot of the alignment issues. You know what I'm trying to articulate?

Yeah.

I mean sales and marketing pharos and you ended up, you know, canceling or whatever. Like, I want to get, I want to help us get better. Like what. What were some of the reasons? And ask a bunch of specific questions and then based on those responses, you can then figure out like, where they might fit in the nurture track. Like maybe it's a feature that you didn't have but you know is coming at some, some point. And I like the idea of like, that is a market, that is an audience you can always continue.

Realignment has been the topic of podcasts and webinars since, you know, sales and marketing existed. And I think it probably will be for the next hundred years as well too. But ABM is a great way to align market to.

And so say you are at a company where you're shipping regular updates or making constant improvements.

Because what ABM is and I, what I think true sales and marketing alignment is, is a series of agreements to the product.

Is there an opportunity where you probably can't do this all the time, but maybe 60 or 90 days, you go back to the list of people who have churned and say, like, hey, here's what's changed with our product in the last two minutes.

Right?

That's what, you know, it's not about. It's not about like seeing the vision.

And who takes X, Y and Z days. And like, maybe it's time to come back or maybe there's some new partnership.

Or credit and all that because there's always going to be egos, there's always going to be politics and. But like, I had had somebody asked me one time, like, what's an mql? And I was like, well, everybody defines it different.

And, and that more special feature, I think you can. It's almost like product, like good product marketing in some ways.

Yeah, I mean, I think you nailed that. I wrote that down like the, the CEO email on the churn.

Right.

I'm gonna definitely steal that from you because I think.

Well, I think it just has to be like, I think this is a slippery one. Like, I think a lot of people want to be like. And do you want to still buy? But if you come in with the straight up, like, look, I'm not.

We're not wrong. And MQL is a contract between marketing and sales on what a good lead is.

Right.

And I think that's kind of what ABM is as well.

Right.

It's a contract.

I don't want to get you on a call. I don't want to sell you Anything like a straight up, like help us do better like feedback type email. I feel like that people are pretty.

Receptive to those types of things. Yeah, I mean I used a company back in the day that did like, like ENPS scoring, right. Where we would ask just regular like anybody who bought or anybody between marketing and sales on how to attack the accounts that have the highest propensity to buy.

Right.

And by putting it down and writing it down and having that plan, it's that agreement that creates that sales and marketing synergy. And I think that kind of bleeds into other stuff as well.

Right.

So we would send them just regular quick surveys that are like, you know, and then just kind of tagged them up and took some notes and took some data. Right. The hardest thing is like when someone churns and sales reaches out and it's like, oh, what happened?

Right.

It just feels kind of like I'm trying to win you back no matter what.

Right.

So that's sales and marketing alignment.

Right.

It's really a series of contracts. What's a good lead? Find whoever it is in your organization that's the least, you know, the least salesy.

Right.

That whatever type. What's a Whatever, whatever, whatever. What is that anagram analogy acronym, whatever acronym that you use for leads in your organization. Because I've heard idol or whatever person that can reach out be like, hey, we're just. Could be again, it could be head of product, could be CEO, you know, could be someone like, hey, I'm here to just, you know, learn.

Right.

And sometimes we're going to miss because you know, our product's evolving, you know, can you help me and in some cases incentivize it.

Right.

No less than 50 of them. Just make sure that everybody agrees on. Hey, here's a $25 Duncan card right on me. If you're willing to spend 15, what those are and how many we need and who's going to do what with them. If you have those three contracts, you'll always minutes asking some questions about why you churned and what happened there.

All right, this question is from Jess. What do you consider the max number of accounts for a one to many approach? So is there a cap on where.

We want to have sales and marketing alignment and abm to your point, Dave, is a great way to do it.

First time I ever really worked closely, I was a head of marketing, like young head of first time head of marketing, the startup that I'm going to take a targeted account approach to marketing. Is there a, is there a Cap.

On that to be abm. Unless you're a really huge company with, you know, again, I wouldn't.

They just hired a VP of sales and this guy was like a 20 year veteran, like seasoned. I'm the young marketer.

Say like a target account list is bigger than 100 accounts in true ABM. And again, anything.

Never done this before. He comes in, he starts, he's like, all right, let's dig into the fun.

Over 100 accounts. You're just segmenting regular B2B marketing.

Right.

And you just can't be. It's hard to scale creativity, uniqueness and directness, which is what?

Right.

At over 100. Unless you have a massive team.

Right?

Yeah. That's really good. I show him all the data, he's like, hey man, we gotta have a hard conversation. I'm like, what? He's like, These are not MQLs what you have. What you have is contacts. These are, these are because like you can still. You could do one to many to those people outside of the hundred. And that just is marketing, like nurture and whatever. But sales leaders I've worked with in the past also kind of had had some math, rough contacts. These are email addresses, these are not MQLs. And that was like the first like big dump of cold on like how many accounts a rep could have in a certain territory that they could like realistically work.

Right.

And that's kind of where that math would come from.

Yeah, but. And that's always evolving too water on.

Me to like realize the difference. And like I think it is, is it's table stakes in today.

Right.

That's changing, you know, so rapidly now just given the state of response rates.

Today'S digital world to just like acquire names of people. It's the mql, the fact that AI.

And automation is crushing email response rates.

And all level, the intent level that if you can drive that, that's what this actually looks like and that's what's actually going to drive revenue.

So that math is changing really, really rapidly.

Christina said I had to hop for a minute, but did we get an answer on proving if ABM is working? If so, could someone share notes on the answer just because she's here right now? Do you.

Right, yeah, it's, it's. And the, and you know like some, like some sales leaders would call the MQL the contact name that you have to turn into their SQL.

How would you answer that? Even though you've already answered. What's the one liner on how you'd Answer that.

Oh, I'm going back to that question. I don't remember what I said. I don't want to say something.

Well, answer it again. Now. First I just, I bumped into a bar and I said Chris, how do prove if ABM is working right?

It's just there's so many different languages spoken that it's just, just all about like again I even, I even challenge everyone from a sales and marketing alignment to create a cop. I mean so I think you know, combining guaranteed contract, right? Like write it down, right? Make the VP of sales sign it.

Right?

Like it sounds easy to prove ROI tactics with, with, with risky brand type tactics, right. You know, attribution is really really difficult, right? So the more solutions do you choose that have simple attribution models, right. You know, CPL based lead gen webinar promos, even event. It sounds hokey but right. Like yeah it, it. Because what happens is in some cases, right, like it's easy for an executive to say this especially in down times, sales are going to.

Gonna.

Sales is gonna struggle and sales is gonna come blame marketing because that's what sales does, right? And when, and when things are going really, really well, person went to the event and then we sold them.

Right.

You know, but it's not easy for an executive to see that this person saw 17 ads programmatically. So we're attributing one and a half percent of revenue to that.

Right?

So that has to be. Sales is gonna jump up and say that we're also awesome because that's what sales does.

Hey, we've, I've been on other part.

Of it and, and that brand part of it is part of abm. But it's just really hard for saying.

Look at all the leads we're generating. Look. So I can't sales close any of.

These like executives especially in tough times to see that.

Right?

So try to combine your tactics with layup attribution stuff where it's easy for an executive to see the ROI and kind of muddle in some of that brand stuff stuff and some of that like risky stuff that's harder to attribute, I think.

What are we, what are we doing? This is Brody Brody. Brody says in the chat. I'm so grateful that you hosted this webinar. I appreciate all the information. Keep it up. I got some more questions for you, sir. To what to what you talked about earlier. It's most likely going to be customers that are going to spend more anyway you need. Here we go. This one is, this one is for this One is from to take a long term view. And so if you're like, we did ABM for six weeks and it's not working, like that probably isn't right. It's like, all right, let's go back and go again. I think if you're just showing display ads to Sharia. Is there a different ABM approach that you would take for boomerang customers to a cohort of people? And you want to measure the lift in that, that's one thing. But it feels like you would want to take a longer term approach and say like, here's 100 accounts that we want to get into.

Success would be, all right, I'm, I'm old, so I'm not down with the cool kids lingo. How are we defining a boomerang customer?

Probably someone that maybe someone that churned and came back.

Okay, so like a win back ABM.

Approach be like, do we have responses at those accounts? Have we booked meetings with those accounts? You would just basically like lay out the steps of the funnel down and start to, and start to see some of the data. Maybe we haven't booked a meeting yet, but I just had a, you know, interesting response back from someone at this account that we've never talked to before. That, that's a, that's a good signal. Let's, let's keep moving forward.

Abm, it's again, it's, it's showcasing traction.

I think, I think, I think, yeah, you're from, from, from your world. You would call this a win back.

Okay, got it. So I mean, generally like just freestyle.

Let's freestyle on the spot for them right now.

Yeah, it's a hard, it's a hard. I mean that's how win backs are the right. And a lot of that's also going to come with that partnership with sales, if you can have it.

Right.

The hardest AB approach.

Right.

Because really what happened is that trust that happened in the lab to start getting some of that data and pull or having a great rev ops team that can pull that data from the CRM without the seller's help.

All right, we're going to wrap. Chris. Thank you. I'm going to give you the virtual round of applause for wherever people listen. This is a fantastic session. I completely agree with Brody. Super grateful for you hopping off as.

Part of that buying cycle, right. Between marketing, sales and the customer got broken by whatever reason.

Right.

You know, some sort of performance issue or some metric or, you know, sometimes timing or.

I'm talking about abm. This feels like a Topic we could do another session on in two or.

Three months and sometimes weird things happen with budget cuts and things of that nature. Right. But really the, the trust, I love your approach.

It's not a, you know, wasn't a vendor pitch, wasn't a use this solution. It was a fundamental like, like here's how I should think about abm. I think a lot of people are going to leave here feeling smarter about taking a strategic approach to abm. So go find Chris Christopher Rack and.

You have to try to build it back, right? So first off, I would, I would.

Give it time on LinkedIn, go and listen to his podcast be to boring. I'm going to be on there in a couple weeks, right.

So I would, I would segment my ABM approach on win backs based on a certain given time just to.

I'm excited for that. Chris, great job today. Enjoy the rest of your stay in Belfast. Go get yourself some pub food. Okay.

No, it was really great and my apologies for those. I had my screen share up. So I'm now realizing that I was insanely close to the can of let things settle down, right? And my personal take and my style is a little bit different holistically but I think the best way to build back trust is a admitting that something happened and then and be saying something funny, right? So if I'm doing an ABM camera. So my apologies for that up close view of my face if you, you're good.

Nothing, Nothing but love. Look, I do a lot of these nothing but love in the chat. This is a fantastic session. Thank you for delivering Chris. I'll see you later. Thank you everybody for listening to this Exit 5 live session on ABM. This recording will send it out to everybody that was here, all the people that registered and will be inside of the Exit 5 community for.

The first message I'm going to send to someone is I'm sorry we sucked, right? And the second thing is I'm going to send something funny and try to make them realize that I'm human and sometimes even vendors and humans miss. And that doesn't mean that the solution isn't a fit, right.

For anybody who wants to check it out. Other than that, go and send Chris a message on LinkedIn. That's what makes me happy when he sees those. So we'll see you later, Chris. I'll see you man. Enjoy the rest of your day, bubba.

That's how I would attack it.

But I think it all, I think it starts with first understanding like so, so they said in the chat yes, it's win back customers who had churned. I think it also first starts with an understanding of like why they churned and then you can under like. So one thing I've seen done in the past is we had it either from our CEO or VP of sales. But basically any, anyone that churned after that, we would send them an email from the CEO and just say like, hey, hey, I saw you checked out. You know, I saw you were using Pharos and you ended up, you know, canceling or whatever. Like I want to get, I want to help us get better. Like what, what were some of the reasons? And ask a bunch of specific questions and then based on those responses you can then figure out like where they might fit in the nurture track. Like maybe it's a feature that you didn't have but you know is coming at some point. And I like the idea of like that is a market, that is an audience you can always continue to market to. And so say you are at a company where you're or shipping regular updates or making constant improvement to the product. Is there an opportunity where you probably can't do this all the time, but maybe 60 or 90 days you go back to the list of people who have churned and say like, hey, here's what's changed with our product in the last X, Y and Z days. And like maybe it's time to come back or maybe there's some new partnership or special feature. I think you can. It's almost like good product marketing in some ways.

Yeah, I mean, I think you nailed that. I wrote that down like the, the CEO email on the churn.

Right.

I'm going to definitely steal that from you because I think.

Well, I think it just has to be like, I think this is a slippery one. Like I think a lot of people want to be like. And do you want to still buy? But if you come in with this straight up, like, look, I'm not, we're not. I don't want to get you on a call, I don't want to sell you anything like a straight up like help us do better like feedback type email. I feel like that people are pretty.

Receptive to those types of things. Yeah, it, it's, it's. Yeah, I mean I, I used, I mean I used a company back in the day that did like ENPS scoring right. Where we would ask just regular like anybody who bought or anybody, like we would send them just regular quick surveys that are like, you know, and then just kind of tagged them up and Took some notes and took some data. Right. The hardest thing is like when someone churns and sales reaches out and it's like, oh, what happened?

Right.

It just feels kind of like I'm trying to win you back no matter what.

Right.

So find whoever it is in your organization that's the least, you know, the least salesy.

Right.

That whatever title or whatever person that can reach out and be like, hey, we're just. Could be again, it could be head of product, could be CEO, you know, could be someone like, hey, I'm here to just, you know, learn.

Right.

And sometimes we're going to miss because, you know, our product's evolving, you know, can you help me and in some cases incentivize it.

Right.

Hey, Al, here's 25 Duncan card right on me. If you're willing to spend 15 minutes asking some questions about why you churned and what happened happen there.

All right, this question is from Jess. What do you consider the max number of accounts for a one to many approach? So is there a cap on where we want to take a targeted account approach to marketing? Is there a. Is there a cap on that to be abm?

I. Unless you're a really huge company with, you know, again, I wouldn't say like a target account list is bigger than 100 accounts in true ABM.

Right.

Again, anything over 100 accounts, you're just segmenting regular B2B marketing.

Right.

And you just can't be. It's hard to scale creativity, uniqueness and directness, which is what?

Right.

At over 100. Unless you have a massive team.

Right.

Yeah, that's really good because like you can still do. You could do one to many to those people outside of the hundred. And that just is marketing like nurture and whatever. But sales leaders I've worked with in the past also kind of had had some math roughly on like how many accounts a rep could have in a certain territory that they could like realistically work.

Right.

And that's kind of where that math would come from.

Yeah, but. And that's always evolving too, right. That's changing, you know, so rapidly now just given the state of response rates and the fact that AI and automation is crushing email response rates and all, you know, like so that that math is changing really, really rapidly.

Christina said I had to hop for a minute, but did we get an answer on proving if ABM is working? If so could someone share notes on the answer just because she's here right now? You did, do you.

How.

How would you answer that? Even though You've already answered. What's the one liner on how you'd answer that?

Oh, I'm going back to that question. I don't remember what I said. I don't want to say something.

Well, answer it again. Now first I just, I bumped into you a bar and I said, Chris, how do you prove if ABM is working?

I mean, so I think, you know, combining guaranteed easy to prove ROI tactics with, with risky brand type tactics, right. You know, attribution is really, really difficult.

Right.

So the more solutions do you choose that have simple attribution models, right. You know, CPL based lead gen webinar promos, even events in some cases, right. Like it's easy for an executive to say this person went to the event and then we sold them.

Right.

You know, but it's not easy for an executive to see that this person saw 17 ads programmatically. So we're attributing one and a half percent of revenue to that.

Right.

So that has to be part of it. And that brand part of it is part of abm. But it's just really hard for executives, especially in tough times to see that.

Right.

So try to combine your tactics with layup attribution stuff where it's easy for an executive to see the ROI and kind of muddle in some of that brand stuff and some of that risky stuff that's harder to attribute and to.

Like what to what you talked about earlier. It's most likely going to be customers that are going to spend more anyway. You need to take a long term view. And so if you're like we did ABM for six weeks and it's not working, like that probably isn't right. It's like, all right, let's go back and go again. I think if you're just showing display ads to a cohort of people and you want to measure the lift in that, that's one thing. But it feels like you would want to take a longer term approach and say like here's a hundred accounts that we want to get into. Success would be like, like do we have responses at those accounts? Have we booked meetings with those accounts? You would just basically like lay out the steps of the funnel down and start to, and start to see some of the data. Maybe we haven't booked a meeting yet, but I just had a, you know, interesting response back from someone at this account that we've never talked to before. That that's a, that's a good signal. Let's, let's keep moving forward.

ABM Again, it's, it's showcasing traction.

Right.

And a lot of that's also going to come with that partnership with sales, if you can have it, right. To, to start getting some of that data or having a great rev ops team that can pull that data from the CRM without the seller's help.

All right, we're going to wrap. Chris. Thank you. I'm going to give you the virtual round of applause for wherever people listen. It's a fantastic session. I completely agree with Brody. Super grateful for you hopping on talking about abm. This feels like a topic we could do another session on in two or three months. And I love your approach. It's not a, you know, wasn't a vendor pitch, wasn't a use this solution. It was a fundamental like, like here's how I should think about abm. I think a lot of people are going to leave here feeling smarter about taking a strategic approach to ABM. So go find Chris Christopher Rack on LinkedIn. Go and listen to his podcast be to boring. I'm going to be on there in a couple weeks. I'm excited for that. Chris, great job today. Enjoy the rest of your stay in Belfast. Go get yourself some pub food. Okay.

No, it was really great. And my apologies for those. I had my screen share up so I'm now realizing that I was insanely close to the camera. So my apologies for that up close view of my face. If you.

You're good. Nothing, Nothing but love. Look, I do a lot of these nothing but love in the chat. This is a fantastic session. Thank you for delivering. Chris. I'll see you later. Thank you everybody for listening to this Exit 5 live session on ABM. This recording will send it out to everybody that was here, all the people that registered and will be inside of the Exit 5 community. For anybody who wants to check it out. Other than that, go and send Chris a message on LinkedIn. That's what makes me happy when he sees those. So we'll see you later, Chris. I'll see you, man. Enjoy the rest of your day.